Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 101 · 7 months ago

Hashing It Out EP#101​: Vivek Singh

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today we talk with Vivek Singh, Operations Lead at Consensus Systems. We dig into what the motivation is behind the work he does, how communities fit into the narrative of "blockchain," and whatever comes up! 

Links: Gitcoin

Links: Vivek Singh

Welcome to hashing it out a podcast,for we talk to the tech, innovators behind blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how peoplebuild this technology. The problems they face along the way come, listenand learn from the best in the business. You can join their ranks wocome back to Hashin it out. This isnow doing video content, and this is part of that kind of subset of episodes.I'd like to do, or I jou Sun, if you person not necessarily focused on anyparticular topic or platform or project the focuses on the person, and todayit's going to be with vexing. That's IT OT e shing, yeah, that's right, perfect!God! Coin you've always been somebody that Ithink I've admired for doing interesting things and having aninteresting perspective on kind of web three and white matter, so welcome othe show. Do the normal thing like that through that no nomal thing. I like tostart these interviews off with a particular question, which I think is agood kind of motivator for the rest of it, and thatis like what do you care about? What is it you care about cool cool, I'm happy to star, with that?It's always good to hang out with coris. So that's be a fun Houer for me, what I care about, as of recently, hasbeen how we can build communities that allowUS mental space with ourselves in a way that we have communities that serve their purpose, which is to bring great people together to haveexperiences better meaningful, to introduce ideas, thoughts and ultimately experiencees to somebody'slife that allow them to expand their perspective and deepen theirrelationships in a way that also helps thatindividual deeping their relationship withthemselves, and so that's the I think, the trickiest part about when you'rebuilding social networks, an your building, any technology that's supposed to bringpeople together. Is that there's there's kind of this dual thing. That'shappening. You of course want to connect people to each other, but theindividual can't get lost in the process. The individual can't bereduced in the process and that's something that I think we've seentechnology struggle with and and I'm hopeful that will well do more with why? What is it that technology isrecently like what makes you think technology struggle with this wh? Why? What cande indicators are using to saylike technology struggling with this concept of the communities you'retrying to build, then I think it's my own experiencewhen I'm on like for me. If I speak personally, if I speak about the waythat I feel on a platform like twitter, sometimes or a plotform like instagramor previously facebook, I think it's become like the norm to say: Okay S,these platforms are not always in our best interest, butlike what? What is it that that people are really saying there and for me, ifI talk about myself, it's that I don't always feel like the bestversion of myself. Coming into my experience on the platform, if I haveclicked the instagram icon on my phone, it's usually at a point of low motivation, low selfcontrol and and when I stumbledthrough the out for forty five minutes. I don't feel any better about myselfthat I did when I first was picking it up, and sothat's an example of of what I think I was saying right where the technology lends itself to perhaps the worstangels of our nature, not the better angels, and it does not support the the ultimatekind of experience that you know. We as humans want to see. You could see itdoing the good things and it does do them sometimes where you're oninstagram and it a funny DM for one of your friends and you get to hang outand explore something together that you know there was never a place for thatbefore instagram. But my gut tells me that the platformdoes not act in my best interest, the vthe majority of the time, and ifthat's the case then then I think that we have a lot of work to do in terms ofmaking those poforms better. What makes you think web three as ofthe ICTO for first off, like I have a absurd amount of thoughts and ideasaround this, because I could, I think,...

...about community building a lot in theCEGO system like both working for status and having a couple podcasts anda d thinking about it. But I'm curious t to know like what mid you think web three hassomething to do with this. Why is it going to make an impact and and Tustgive this concept of community building yeah yeah? The quote that comes Tomineis a super simple one that near Ind Balbalo put in mine out a long time ago.It's changed: The incentives, change the outcome and the incentives forthese platforms prior at this point, something that we kind of talk about alot Y, they're incensivized to get clicks, they're incentive Bius to haveyou scroll. The best case scenario for an instagram is that I do scroll forForty five minutes and get lost in the feed, not that I spend forty fiveminutes on the DMS talking to my friend about something interesting that reallymatters to me and that simple fact that we might be ableto ship the incentives in an interesting way in won. Three gives mehope, not saying that we'll take it and dothe right things that's up to us and we have a lot to do in order for that to be true. Butsome of the things with with Colonel Most recently have have may be moreexcited about that, and- and it has to do with basicallythese these positive SOM games, these infinite some games that are beingplayed and went three where, for example, how cort and I have have beenable to hang out mors that qaries Verey excited about building securitycommunities and I'm very excited about building security communitie. So wewere able to get together in a way that was beneficial cory to you. I think,given that this is an interest of Y. U Yours, to myself and also to seventyfive security fellows, who were people who are interested in Wen threeeinterested in security and potentially could become the next wave of reallyimportant kind of builders that help us get to the next stage of web three, andit's the fact that we all work on this open source technology called etheriumthat even allowed us the base level to consider the first google meat callthat we did to figure out if it would have worked. If you were working onsome second technology- and I was working on another one- the idea of USbuilding a security community yeah- we might have been able to like pull itoff, but the incentives here were automaticallymore well aligned, given that we're both working on the same open source,purocaor technology that that allowed us to have that that conversation, sosomething I've seen or had issues with with. I guess traditional social mediaand help people come together, digitally eto have conversations, R, Weue, seen Ha draftic rise and things like slack anddiscord and telegram, probably because of the stuff that you just mentioned,where the platforms are designed to make you scroll not to make you becomea better person. Despite the like level of caactivity, you feel you have what'se wit. The people and different places around the world is like the concept of fake value right if you're on bike fredit is a goodexample of this. Karmat has nothing to do with anything other than some weird feeling we give ourselves inthe concept of other people, updoting things that we say or do, and there's no real value attached tothose things t it could be gamed because of that it can be controlledbecause of that by the platform an Innuvatiot perform or bought it forthat matter, and web three gives us an opportunity to directly attach realvalue to our contribution to any given community, whether that be like valuesolely within that small, tight kmit community set gus, give it separatit or something even broader. So like thesherium is come thing like. If we take a theory, is it as an example? The based token of Theorym is kind ofThi, this unit of value that transcends everything built on top ofit, because it's necessary to make everything run and then into Givanplatform. That has a token would be more, like a subredit token right, something that's more kin to valueassociated to that specific community and theconcept that we're able to make give people the ability to gain value based on their contributionto a given community. That, like is aligned with whatever thelike the goals of that community are whatever, where R thatr communitydefines is good and then remove that value and do something else with itoutside of that community is something that we've never seen before. So notonly are you like getting a better metric of what your contribution is toa given community based on the value do...

...gain from it. You're also able to dosomething with it like pay, your bills or, if you're, if like in humans, areinvariably like a fiveral. They like their what they like doing changes fromtime to time so like and so like they may want to leave acommunity. You now have the ability to potentially take the work you've putinto something and move it to a different one to likekind of boot, strap your potential value next, maybequicker. I think that's something like these types of things are very veryinteresting that yeah, like the social aspect of web three Naples, that Idon't think we've really been able to like start to explore and people likeyou. I think, havepeen thinking about these things and trying to buildplatforms that facilitate this stuff, like how have you whic our experience so far, and onelike trying to get that message across and you're success IV doing so yeahtotally totally. I mean this is this is like the core of what gets me excitedabout? What we're? What we have theopportunity to build is you you mentioned a theory. AM The way that Iwould describe a therium. Is this it's this neutral baselayer from with,within which you can build reputation and different platforms and even aredit. You know there's pros and conts to how things work in that communityand they have rules and some of t e the rules can be gamed. Some of them areare better put together and I think some people hare really involved in thered community. Now you can build really awesome relationships there, but the fact that you can, in this new model, take whateveryou've done on red it and have that betied not to your redit profile, butto your overall digital identity in a way that is built into the baselayer it it allowsfor so many more opportunities allows for you to feel very freely. I think yourself in in that firstcommunity, knowing that, if you ever decide to leave the community, that'sfine, it's not something that will be something you leave in the past. It'snot something that yyou'll have to leave behind it's something that youcan leverage in other context and so to answer your question more specifically the way that I've seen this playout ismostly through my work at Git quit. So I then I get Qin R for three years. Itstarted as me being involved in the community. I transitiond to a CO role,and then now I've been spending a lot of my time on a community. That'scalled Colonel, which we can get into at some point, but the story at Gitcoinwas that we first were kind of built for the sole purpose ofgrowing open, sorce software. We thought that this Etheoriam Movement, Iwas showing us that there was funding available for people to work onsoftware that was not behind closed doors like, for example, the reditCovis for the instagram code base, but could be built in the open with acommunity of peers and in a way that benefited the public good and the examples that we're talkingabout now. You can build applications on etheriumthat build a reputation for you, but since he terium is open source thatreputation can easily port to another community or another thing that youwork on later is an example like three years later of that type of visionplaying out. So what was happening at first was there was a community ofdevelopers at the time, one to two thousand. This point it's fortythousand, who were getting involved in Crypto and we're looking for theirfirst projects o contribute towards, and so their first interaction with usin gitciyn world was by doing projects for open source crypto startups. So youcan imagine youaswap or status or any number of define projects. Hat' putup a bounty one get coint where developer can make their first touchwith a platform by submitting a POL request and getting its accepted andthen getting paid ut for doing that work- and I was kind of like the first interaction that we thoughtwas a really important thing that that was basically the primitive is. If youever want to work with somebody, and you have something that you want to getbuilt on your codbase, you can do that, put a bounty up for fifteen hundreddollars or a thousand dollars, and if that work comes back good, you now have this relationship that youcan set up with this individual for maybe longer term work and to tie it to what we've beentalking about here. I think the exciting thing was was what happenedonce we got to a bit of a larger scale,...

...which was that we started to see somereally awesome developers who are working across four or five differentdefied projects. Switching years, often some of them were going on to likethink of their own company ideas that were using some of these early DFIprojects, and- and that was for me, where the idea of colonel really started to feel like a good timeto give it a go where we said, let's get together a great group of twohundred builders out of this broader group of people, that's in the Git, anGA KINICO system in a way that uses their onchan reputation. I E Thebounties that they've done or the grants that they've created or theother things that they've done in web three as basically their passport andinto a program like colonel and let's build an a week, experience for them.That's exciting and enjoyable, and yes, ofcourse, helps them with their projects but more important. The introduces thisgroup to each other and for us it's been a great joy to get to know thesepeople and to have an environment where we can treat them as peers and ingeneral, build relationships that that have lasted well beyond the corts Doyou. Think that, like there's a lack of focus on community building, because I, in myopinion, like the only thing that really matters in any blotchain network,is the community. That's behind it. That's the only thing that gets itvalue like I've said in one of the previous bickcoin podcast episodes aaround table like any token. That has value is because ithas a community and and the strength of that communityand the ideals behind it is usually like directly correlated with the valueof that token. And yet we see we don't tend to see too much focused on thecommunity building. In fact, most like companies tend to have like a communitymanager that is somewhat deemed of someone lower on the total pole andlike if you look at like this, like the gender, like the traditional c sweetmodel, right Te, kiny matter, someof you higher on to hand all the stuffthat no one wants to do, and, and it has this kind of blind feeling of where the focus shouldbe in terms of how these, how this technology actually works. You feel like that's like that's,that's a reasonable assessment of like most projects trying to trying to pushforward this stuff. I think that it's a reasonableassessment of where we started, and what gives me hope is that I think moreand more people are realizing in Crypto that it it's not something that you can bolt onas a secondary thing and the investments that I've noticed in thecommunity space have been meaningful and I think it's it's gotten to thepoint where that word itself: Community Community Building Community Manager.These words are are words that are starting to lose their meaning becausethey're used so much, and it's a important point to me, because the ultimate way that community isformed is through stories is through collections of words that are put inaway that get people excited about your mission, your ideas and give you asense that you could be a part of that particularstory. And the specific point I think in the most powerful stories is that there's a individual journey that isrequired within this community context, and that's the point that I was trying to drive home and is really thebiggest part of colonel. Is that whild? There is this great group of twohundred people that we think some of these people might end up. Being youknow your cofounders or people that en' up at your wedding or people that arefriends that you get to hang out with. We hope for a long time. The the journey is also an individual E.IT's a question to you of what do you want to do within this particularcontext and in general like what what drives you, and so what I think manycommunity projects to this day still struggle with is is how you do both howyou make sure that a community is not created with the intention of gettingthis group of people together to do what you want, but instead that you'regetting this community together to support them in doing what they want todo. How do you do that? What's that, like?What's that what' some some some foot...

...guns associated with the former, the the answer to me is is: is you look for ways that these people can build things of value that aretheirs using tools, resources or ideas thatcome from your community? That could help them move quicker and so, to givesome example, eftherium is in some sense and open source technology thatanyone contributes to that that many people, many people, have some amount of ether that representstheir stanke in this overall. That word, so one thing that you could do is say:okay, well, you you. Should you should build on Ateria, we own some Matheria and we thinkitwould be awesome if you come join us in the etherium community, and this issomething that we are doing on a like global scale, very regularly,everyone's on twitter saying holy smokes. We give more engineers fromeverywhere in the world to start working on a therium again or not again,but for the first time we need that to happen. We need that stuff, but the the real way. I think that that you wehave to focus is say: Okay here are NFTS here is decentralized finance hereare these primitives that none of us really know what is going tohappen with Pese, but if you have ideas- or if you want to look at these fiftyideas that we see that we know some people who are already building thekind of first versions of these, these are projects that are at the stagewhere you could be either a founder of this project. Youcould be a cofounder of this project or in general you could contribute to thisproject and be an owner as a result of that contribution, and now building on atherium is being done, notbecause hey, we want people to build in the eutherium community, because that'sthat's good for us now. It's there's interesting opportunities thatmight fit what you're excited about as well, and if your individual journey is somethingthat's also good for the overall N etherium story. There's that win Wencomponent and I think very regularly. If we're thinking about community, wehave to think when Wen first and if we don't think that it's it's just obviousto people and they don't they don't buy it. What's the difficulty there in terms of from what I found motivating people to action is one of the hardest parts foranything in a community or like getting them to do something. So youcan C n. You can convince them that something is true, but Giv them to acton that truth is very difficult. What are good ways of trying to motivate people to dosomething? That's in their own benefit or likehelp them understand what may be in their own benefits, so they can figureout what to go. Do because, like it's easy, like it's veryeasy to say, this is what I want to do. I S. This is what, and this is how youcontribute to it, because I personally know what like, if I find someone that has a strong passion and want's tit, goin a certain direction. It's easy for me to break that up and delegate it topeople who Jur, who don't don't have that same confidence or understandingor or motivation to get something done. How do you get people to think about that and then considerwhat's good for them and what's beneficial and how that fits into alarger group and why it may be b beneficial to both of them and thegroup yeah? It's a it's a difficult thing todo, and ultimately, we can only do kind of like our best and I'll give the example of how. I think we do thisin the coronel context. In the Kelnal context, what we say is applie a colonel, and the hope for usis that we get your application and when we go through the four hundred orfive hundred oplications, we end up with a group of two hundred people thatare truly incredible. Human bigs. The application flow is not anapplication, and that will just ask you about your web three interests. 'll Askyou about who you are and the things that make you excited about the worldand what that means is when you join aColonel Block on May twelfth is the next kickoff. The first thing thathappens is that two hundred people are making their introductions and you get to see who these people are andour. That is that this group and the energy of that groupand realistically the energy of that first weet, is something that will showyou that if you choose to invest here,...

...there will be great things that canhappen. TTHERE's, just like too many greatpeople around in this particular place, where a particular amount of energyright now dedicated towards this eight week, exploration that it is in your interest to give it a go. Anr timefest your time, the rest ofyour time, yeah and for me you know, I've seen this born out in an examplefor like very regularly, you see somebody like Li Tony Snark, who was in the securitytrack, ocory will now or Carl Parterson is a great example as well, who CarlSmart, conject engineer: inincredible developer, building like four differentprojects at a time in crypto joined us wit. The security track has a bunch of things that he couldhave been doing outside of doing this, but then joined us for the colnelsecurity track and I think kind of looked around and said:Hey, there's a bunch of people who are interesting people here who I couldengage with, and he ended up starting something that hecalled best practicers, where his idea is that he wanted to do not audits, butreviews of smart contracts for protocols that were assuind to golive. Give people an initial look that you know what they should be thinkingabout security wise before they go in and have to pay for a really expensiveaudit, and I don't think that Karl would have donethat if he didn't have the opportunity at first to look around and say well,Hey, there's, seventy five great security engineers here. What could Ido here if we just told him? Well Hey this is colonel. You know what do youwant to do, but you didn't put the context of well there's two hundredpeople here and sixty of them might be people that could be collaborators. The the mindset changes them and it itat least fosters the potential that you could. Some of those things could couldcome come together. E muth like like you basically justsaid. If you build up Thet Will Cup right? What do you need to Buil like? What'sthe what's the environment? What's the framework that fosters collaborationand and people being motivated to try something within that community yeah? I don't know if it's all you build itand they will come because there are two things that are like that are true about this particularpart of CRYPTA. One is that very regularly. You can get togethertwo hundred great people who are getting in a CREPTAP, at least in thecolonel context, because so many people are coming in, but that's because of the work thatthis whole industry has done over the last three years, where nfts are at a spot wheremainstream developers can easily see how they can use it. Defi has enoughthings going on that. If you're coming from a finance or a traditional techbackground, you might be able to see things that you can do in that spaceand those are kind of the like tail winsthat were getting from the technical progress that is happening in Crypta, but the yeah, I guess the secondary piece is- is yeah just just giving people a starting point: that'snot themselves behind a computer, giving them a starting point. That's themselves with a group of two hundredother incredible people that might be collaborators for a very long time. Ei've. Definitely felt it an tssynonymous with community buildingis network building and more often than not, I've likepeople say which Di invested, because you definitely get that duringthese bullruns and people come in and say I don't. I don't know how tonavigate the space. What should I buy, or what should I invest in? It'susually like my answer to that is always invest or time and understanding join a community and start askingquestions and contributing to it, because more often than not those thoseconnections that networking that experience is way more valuable than any particular coin. You may purchase at an a giventtime because it gives you the wisdom and experience to make better decisions,as you keep doing that and and levenes those relationships and build somethingthat may that may be useful or contribute to something that may beuseful or change something, and it's it's paid dividends in the communitiesthat I've been a part of watching people come in, get better at something contribute thengo off and build projects that go on to...

...successful, and you can't get that by buying and holding and not doinganything else totally and the risk associated withbuying and holding the wrong thing is so much higher than going to a community and asking thewrong questions and in the an the getrument of that totally totally it's so much moresustainable yeah. It's just like a more. I was a peaceful process inside CR theworld. If you want to get greedy with it right, he's like. Ultimately, thethis is all the or these are value networks, regardless Toron of theirsocial or not, and a an investment and growing wealth is certainly a part ofit. But I've always said that, like the more you spend time understandingthe ecosystem, the more likely it is that eventually you're going to seefruit, bear that no one else seems to see and your ability to Pluk it's goingto be really really really easy. I it's just like it is like well, why is it?This is seems this seems obvious. I'm just going to do this and it turns outmore often than not that that's the case, because you have an understandingand such a brand new technology and it's such agreen field of opportunitoty with like what you could be doing. That could bedone. It isn't being done that there's so much fruit being bornthat no one' sen totally totally yeah. It's still more true than before that we're. I think the recent proof points of likenew primitives that ares coming up and FT's being an example, but even likesome of the newer mechanics with bonding curds they're,not they're, not like taking Thi Greenfield and like fillingit they're, just making greenfield look way bigger than it did even six monthsago, there's a like I've trying to come up with a visualization for this,because I've been trying to explain why understanding is so useful rightbecause everyone comes in with their own unique perspective. Pastexperiences Doman expertise that is going to be differentiated than like what the corepeople who started all this stuff right- and I see this like a I spider web kindof and Youe Lik a visualize, a Spider v. You have these like core pieces,starting to perching out from the CINTER spreading out and in there youhave connecting pieces from one of those fires to the other spire. Ifispires for IGHTWORD, I don't know yeah and and as you grow out more and more and more, youlike these pieces get longer and it, but like eventually like those piecesthat connect the main corp central spiers are missing and the further you upgo out the morethey're missing and so like the. If you just understand a couple sectionsyou're able to identify those missing pieces and say like why is there a holehere, I'm just going to fill that hole andit's going to be useful and connect the web to make it way stronger in thewhole inthe than it was before, and it's. But you can't get that unless you learn a bunch of different things fromall the people that are currently here, who are just desperate to teach ou,yeah yeah. Definitely the examples of that that I've seen most recently islike you had to like Nft Web, and then you had the Dfin web and they were kindof like building in their own little silos. They all they that incredibleideas, many of which have been very useful. But then there is this momentwhere the nft world in the DFI world both realized that there was thisopportunity, as it related to nft liquidity that actually sat right atthe middle of those two worlds, and it's just one example of ways that nftsand Defi these two big stories- big memes. They there's been a group of people whoare involved enough in both of those communities that they said. Okay, likethis isn't this is something new that you can do, and now I like the web analogy anotherone that we use often is the tree analogy using open source code and andget as one of the main drivers of that story, and it's true that Yeahso Ye,I'm that the on the darker side of that we have these visions of the future that are usually pretty beautiful in terms oflike this is what this technology can do, and this negative connotation of the socialimplications that led that the web two led to and, however, ther usually fixesall these things and makes them so much better. But that's not that that's not alwaysgoing to be the case right like that.

There are social implications to thetechnology we use like the general term, for that is like the medium is themessage and as you're confined to a specific medium. The message usuallyconforms to it as well and like how, like you, are doomed to behave the way the technology forcesyou to behave when you use something, especially for like communication andfinance and so on and so forth. What I often try and think about what thenegative things emergent properties of this technology. You can lead toOo'saying. What are the social implications that these particular like communities that we're trying to build re that we're not saing? Can you hasthought about what bad things can happen if these canmut? If these, like on't, now value communities, valuenetworks grow to a point where they're like theybecome significant and that people's evertylives? Definitely that's a big question andthe same way that we can bash on instagram and read it a guarantee. Wewill deservedly be bashed on for things that we don't do perfectly, but we dohave the opportunity right now to think critically, not just by saying Oh, wecan do all these things better than e to but say what is it that we're doingUX pattern wat that is healthy when we're creating the nextmedia and one of the things we talke about in heceronel cellbits. Is that at some point you want to get past these paradises? You want to get pastthe social media paradigm as the way to connect on the Internet. You want toget past the WIKIPEDIA and a Google paradigm of searching for articles orsearching for information and the biggest gift that crypto could giveis a leveling of the playing field to the potential paths by which youinteract with the Internet, not going just down the facebook pathor just down the Redo path, or just down the XYZ path and using thosemediums, because they are the ones that are required of us socially, whether welike it or not, but on Internet that more readily allows for less paradimsand kind of. Paradoxically, less paradigmes comes through more optionsand when we think about like the digital identities of the future and when core you were bringing up the like the beauty of being able to takeur your social identity from platform to platform that to me is a part of thevision of kind of the benefit of it. That's one way to talk about it.Another way to talk very specifically about a pitfall is the focus right now in web three onownership. I think that that word is being thrownaround a lot as a benefit of CRYPTA that as a creator as an artist as anindividual, you can be an owner of the things that you contribute andcollaborate towards, and I think that what that means is alot of the ways that we interact with cryptos is VEA scoreboards. We see whohas a particular amount of EF. We see leader boards what what what's theleading cryptocurrency? WHAT'S ITS MARKET COP? How many people do we knowwho hold it and it it's a very different mindset than themindset, a that you need when you think about like the web. The web is is kindof like a give first mindset where you to your point are looking at this webof things and what your pinpointing is where in that Web, can I add somethingof value, and can I trust that if I build something valuable I'll end up at an okay place on thescoreboard right, so my worry is that we will continue the tranded crypto ofemphasizing the scoreboards, which I think just increases the pace of some of thetrends that we see, including the trends of income, inequality to nameone thing, but that we still do have theopportunity to generate these. Give firstcommunities where you feel like by giving your particular project or yourparticular idea, init community context that you will be rewarded in ways that...

...that allow you more freedom in terms oflike the things that you can work on examples of this just to be morepractical right is like let's say that I'm a part of a community of owners of the RAC token.This is something that there's a grammy winning artist name is is reck. He's he's been involved in thetherm space. He has a social token community, which means that there's abunch of people who own a Tok, that's called Rac that allow them toparticipate in kind of governance, proposals relating to what what ricdoes into the future and in general, interact with him as anartist, and I think that, like you know in onesense, you could look at it and be like who owns the most RC tokens. Do I have enough to have like aparticular dollar amount, but the other thing that you can look at it as iswell. What are the things that I could do within this context? Thatare my specific skill sets and now somebody is interested in community.One thing that I think about for R he is like. Could I get together a group of thefifty most excited rac kind of community members and build aspace for that group of fifty to get to know each other to interact, and maybethey are willing to pay a hundred dollars per person to be a part of acommunity like that? Now you've built an environment thathas generated, let's say, five thousand dollars in revenue that goes back tothe RC community but, more importantly, you've given a space for fifty, maybeup andcoming artist, maybe creators other really uniquely talented peoplewithin the RC community to actually get to know each other to buildrelationships to maybe find someof the that they end up getting married tothese are the types of things that, like that's, that's an infinite game. That'snot looking at a leaderboard that saying well, Hey! I can be a part ofthis community. It doesn't really matter exactly how many tokens I havethat's kind of in the background of this, but what's in the forefront, isthat if I do something valuable here genuinely, I can generate enough valueto be very happy with my own living situation, but that other people drive value fromas well you're right I mean I understand thatit s atitionto concept. I don't think I've quite thought about too much of the airportsof a given token are a almost like a direct quantification ofworse within that community, because we, because we have this kind of training, to associate worth Proxye by value right right. So,like we tike people generally trend towards assuming wealthy people know more thanthem, because they're wealthy or understand something more becausethey're wealthy, and so you have Tis, like you, have this proxy of value for understanding ourworth and tokens and anygiven community serve the samepurpose in a lot of ways and you're, saying that that may be det ma like continue that trend of making people feel like they need tohoard in order to gain valueits. In that thing, so, like yeah and you're, saying how do you can youdon't get away from that like unless it asyou change the way that the do I havethe reason for using the token or hoarding it or using it? Is it the same as like it doesn't havethat same strong connection as a proxy to Value Yeah? The way in my head thatwe get around this is by not so regularly emphasizing how much of a particular token you have more than, for example, how manycommunities youre a part of right like that's. That's where I think it startsget interesting is like well sure you're in this particular tokencommunity and you have x number of tokens, but I as an individual andchosen to be a part of seven or eight different communities and sure, maybe Idon't have as much of the total amount and maybe in dollar terms, it's not it's not equivalent, but butthe point being that we like we let that kind of like play out in thebackground where the foreground is, is not thinking so much about theownership of these communities and thinking much more about what are the ways that I would like tointeract in the world more generally, and can these connections like real humanconnection, like how does the token...

...facilitate real, like more naturalhuman connection, exactly exactly as opposed to just another leader board that takes away ouin connection e? Try to figure that out, like it's?Okay, because its I did a talk a couple years ago, I want to say at abit coirn conference called the social implications of blockchaininfrastructure. So basically like what webtute technology kind of like the use of this technology.And it's like how ubiquitous t is led to varioussocial implications that we kind of now deems bad and howthe like full swing from centralization to decentralization leads to differentsocial behaviors aand. What implications they may haveand how reasonably speaking like real, like real human connection and relationships,are credibly different, dated right and one side of the spectrum versus theother. Isn't the right answer and having the availability of bothtechnologies, because it's the option to actually mold the technology to therelationship versus what we've been doing, which is inmolved relationshipsto the technology, but and I'm curious to see like what we come up with. If, if that's a powerful thing and if it'sright, what we come up with to like, really facilitate more natural human,human connections and relationships. Based on like the more options of technology we havetoday, yeah and and if we shreat the tokens of any given of vanygaven project the same as we'vetreated like feot money as a proxy for power and looking at leaderports thatthat doesn't really change much yeah. I did a bunch of just like. Iremember a long time ago that, when like ICOS first startedearllike, Tho thonsand and seventeen, maybe I the sixteen I forget when the firstones were. I was doing like distribution analysisof like what the ICOS were doing so ike, basically, who was buying the token andwhat the distribution os of like how many people had xmay tokens versus how many people hadlike, like one token versus how many people bought ten housand tokens nd, soon so forth, right and looking at that distrobition of people, because thenarrative at that time, like what people were talking about at that time,back then Wa. How inclusive everything was. How beautifully done how beautifulthe a ter MUCO system had done to like open it up to everyone to be involvedwith investing in projects and how equally distributed it was and how likewonderful, the project is done when you looked at the token distributions ofthe early icos that wasn't the case. The Tal was longer for sure. Morepeople who had never had access to investing in projects certainly hadaccess, but in terms of like relative power, if you would make thatconnection of like number of tokens to power, it was still held in very fewpeople's hands, yeah and so like it's curious to see like we talk about the concept of opening up these networks to be moreinclusive and allowing people access to things they have an access to. But ifyou look at the underline power dynamics, it's hard to say it'schanging. It's maybe moving in the right direction, certainly moving inthe right direction, because people are talking about it and carrying about itmore. But I don't know what it's going to take to make a significant debt. Yeh Yheah. That part for sure. There'slike a lot of there's just the reality, the geniecoeficient of theoryum an Bigcoin is worse, not better than most currenciesin the world, which means that there's few holders fewr holders that are thelargest olders of the theory in the big Cain than of the US dollar or most Fiotcranses, which yeah. Why? Why do you think thatis I mean to your point in the early daysright it was it wasn't that there wasn't hat manypeople who were you were willing to get into theetherium. I see it right. First, like UST, a pool of people who dow about itwas small if couse S, people who, based on ideology at that time, we werewilling to say yeah, I want to convess in that was even smaller, even spoler,yeah, yeah and so yeah many people made huge bets and an those bets paid off,and I'm not I'm not necessarily commenting on that as a bad thing. Thisthis like to me from philosophical perspective, there's thisquestion of inequality. Of course, I think is avery important topic, but I do think it's secondary to the topic of ofrising tides, slifting old boats and US...

...attempting to grow the Pie in a waythat the lower bar for everyone is at a level that anyone who's, a human beingcan be, can have their necessary rights to to be human, then, and not to be slavesto a system. And my God tells me that inequality is avery important part of that to focus on and we have work to dothere when it comes to Crypto for sure. But we also have mechanisms that might be able to risetides and- and we should, we should be mindful on both fronts. Hit's. An interesting question then,like an the effect that and the event thatthere's a project, I'm making something OUP Bi ont know like so that's a project that overwhelming the benefits, anindividual or a few individuals, but still benefits the broader community. More than what I had is that good, like you have like.Basically, you have. The situation with the distribution of wealth is incredibly asymmetric, butRut the access to wealth is rise like th. The tide is rise for everyone butis ata consystent anit's, a stron man kind of, but like Yo, give hat I trying toget at like how much do we have to try and get to the point of equaldistribution as good versus the overall average is better than what it was yep.I mean yeah for me, like the like. A big part of it to me startswith access and education at the kind oflike most elementary levels, literally starting from like elementary schooleducation, but we should not penalizes the people who have the ideaswho can come up with incredibly asymmetric returns that aregood for humanity at large, and if somebody comes up with an idea, that'sworth a billion or two billion dollars judged by you know a market cap sure,but, more importantly, by the productivity of that particular thing. I don't think that we should at facevalue, say that that's the bad thing just because two people became billionaires off withthat idea. But what we should be thinking about is how should we make iteasier and easier for anyone anywhere to be the person who comes up with thatidea? That has those asymmetric returns and and th those two things in Tana bring ustowards the future that we're looking for number one. The people who do things that pushthings por, never feeling like there. Let's say great power, great responsibility solike if you're Amazon and your juft bases, like yeah you're, going to get alot of flack for the things you're doing and that's a part of what's beingsigned up for. But you know thinking about if he one thusand, nine hundred and ninetyfive, for example, didn't even try, because the system worked against him,which would have been true if JEFP Besus was born in India wer if he wasborn in Africa. If he was born in the Middle East, he wouldn't have eventhought to try in many cases changing that, so that those people whoare in that particular position today feel more and more available to the opportunity of doing something they're excited about o.that's your definition of onclusion is removing those artificial varriers of kind of custific pressure for people like notbe not feeling they're able to try or I like able to try and not being able tosucceed exactly yeah. I would, I would add, to a lot to that s. That first part of with great power comes greatresponsibility. Is that when you I would, I would consider one of thosesystems, bad that has this overwhelming asymmetric of wealth ytribution. Iconsider leading towards bad when the person who has thethe large portion is able to manipulate those that don'tright. If you build a system which gathered woilh, put the kid whichgathers your resources and with those resources you're able to dictate whathappens to e everyone else, then so forins yeahand! Yes,...

...it's like it's the difference between don't be evil. It can't be evil. Yeah TS in a lot of the blockchin systems. In my opinion, or at least my idealizationof them, is minimizing the gap between what someone can do to the rest. Yeah,like you gather resources so that you have power to manipulate others and most thougt in most. In most cases,that's the reason for gathering resources that you can assert yourinfluence on the rest of the world, using thoseresources or the threat of using those mavrses and the systems that werebuilding and web three are minimizing that gap of small individuals. My bestfriend, caught on O best friends, calls it the asshhole index, like theassholes of a system gathering resources to assert their will onothers that don't want to yeah yeah. Now I love that and yeah. I do want tobe clear right because I think you're, right and and get corn we've beenthinking about this in a very practical sense in in terms of public good spunding, and maybe thiswill take a seconds on pack, but I think it's really important and I'mglad that you bring it up because, yes, that kind of like a high level, I don'twant the capitalist entrepreneurs to be stoppedfrom building amazing things, and I want us more to focus on inclusion andensuring that anyone is willing to give that thing ago, if they're so inclie. But there is a middle wet between those twopats that you have just described, that I think we have the opportunity withcryptoand for anyone who hasn't read the talics recent post on legitimacy. Ithink he outlines this in an incredible incredible way, which is to say Thatt,yeah and what he did very practically was says that okay, we do have someprojects that we know have received. Some of these asymmetric returns. Manyof the projects that are over a billion dollars an marketcrupteright now, ave done so, and I've created treasuries that basically havehundreds of millions, if not billions, of dollars that are, in theory, for thefurthering of that ecosystem in the traditional world. You coul lookat this, like Amazon to or apple having their balance sheet apples bouand sheet,having like billions of dollars, maybe trillions soon in cash, that theyareused basically in banks, stock biling, so that they can like increase theirsock price overtim. What if it was a social norm in cryptopwith the UNISWAP or with a badger or with any of these projects, that theyput one percent of those token treasuries towards public goods, whichmeant that each of these defied projects from the baselayer built inwas giving back to a pool of funds that was by definition neutral. That was notsomething they controlled, not something that they had power over, butthat the community could help allocate in a way that is democratic, fair andgives kind of this new primitive to builderswho are coming into Crypta, where you don't have to be entitled to the UNOSOPCommunity, to the etherium community, to Pokodok community to any of thecommunities, because there's this neutral pool of funds- that's billionsof dollars in the future, is what kind of I think Patalic sees when he writesThi this type of the paper where those billions of dollars can be allocatedtowards projects, people individuals around the world, no matter who theyare without coercion, in a way that, like literally they'rebuilding for the public good right, they're, building things that are opensource that help web threes ecosystem grow and in a way that, from the GICIN perspective, we thinkends in this, like this better middle ground, where you don't have theAmazons of the world, who control everything and don't have any valuestreams that they're giving back to. You know automatically, let's say like innercitycommunity building, but you have yeah these public protocols that aregiving one percent of token treasury and that that we can allocate, as wesee fit the community, so you're saying, like those that have benefited from thesecosystem, allocate a percentage of their benefit towards a pool of moneythat they have no control over how it's dispersed and e Ostensically, like themain example here for understanding how that money getsdispersed, is Gedcoin good coin crants, like the rounds of grants where people come in and vote and using using quadratic voting Mechana of...

...basically using the community ofsignaling to where this money should go exactly individual vote. Individualdonations don't have to be large, in fact, they're motivated to be small, so that the signal was very, verystrong which Cleollis, which, which tells you how to allocate that largepool of funds from all of the current winners of the system. Exactly exactlyexactly the main point of that. I automatically think about this stuffis understanding how those systems coan be gained or gained exactly I'd, say.quagatic voting is at least how it's implemented and Gidcoin is atleast an example of something that's harder to game and but still very possible of coureverything's everything's gamable. There's there's rules, that's gamable, but like it's more difficult to do so,and it leads to our towards a better outcome than not, which means it'sreasonable to do yeah. But I like the idea, I think it'swonderful, but how do you KI tise people to do itother than like thetellic writing a blog and people feeling bad? If they'renot? I think that was kind of the idea withthis post of legitimacy as we are creating the social norms for what itmeans for somebody to create an NFT and raise thirty million dollars or do anICO or do a token and generate a pool of five hundred million dollars intreasury. What do you do with that? Five hundred billion million dollarpool, and can we create social norms as a community that basically make it cannon to give it forward? Yeah, here'sthe thing there's the thing like: I get it right, it's, but it's unless you frame this in a way, that'sbeneficial to the person who's, giving that one percent Yeahif you don't frameit in a very greedy way like then it's less likely to be donebecause o I I think we all know systems that run on altarism or don't work.It's true, and there is a tremendous amount to begained as as a project who does this. But if that's not, if that's nothighlighted, then it's hard to it's hard for them to justify doing it.Yeah in the short term, one of the things that could be highlighted is bydoing this you're, allowing more funding to get new people in to Crepta, and those people might not want to workon your protocol, but if you get them into the crypto space, that's theinfinite game that you play now. But to your point, we we need to think about how that storyworks ever time. It can't just be based on altrism, but that is like not beinga good player. You know I mean like it's like Wer, just like Yo, don'tyou're, not being a good player like a lot of people are especially as you woubring in more and more of the tritional financingco system who the fuck caresis going to be. There is basically like I've made the money who cares it and solike. If you want to cultivate this community of, like I don't know like more equitablecommunity and vairness ind enclusion, there needs to be very selfish tits.The reason why bitcoin works the first place is that be as selfishas you want. It's beneficial to everyone, yeah and while, while I agree with you likethis is the best outcome and it's wonderful to fund this type of stuff feel as though the justification forgetting people to do it geeds to be stronger. It's a good point. It's agood point, I'm glad you say T at because you're right, it, I think, canwork in a short term. But you know in a bear market. People are people are likeholy smoke. We don't have any money, that's where the rubber really needsTho road. On these types of things and so you're right there, there needs tobe something there and I think that it's get to be completely figured up. I had to think about it on the top of my head. It certainly allows the funding ofprojects if we are to assume that the signalingprocess of the community participates at I'd, say those Tuperticipate Ind Gitcoin grats is really large in terms of a signal of what should be funded, then it awows an individualorganization to not focus on what they should be allocating funds to butit's. Literally just like it's a onestop shop, I allocate this one percent of funds. It goes to where thecommunity thinks that you go best and that's going to benefate me from betterinfrastructure and and synergy with things I can interoperate with that.Allow me to build application better, exactly exactly you've actually put itbetter than I have in this version, because it's true there was a posttoday by the UMBRA team. Do you know those guys I've heard of them? Ihaven't looked hard, not Solomon and Ben DEFRENCISCO. Theywere in. They were in Colonel Block, one reallygreat engineers. They put a post up...

...today. That was talking about SECP fifty sixk one. Do you know thisLibrary Nev? You know this libry yeah, that's the that's the elector curvexactly so they put a thousand dollars OA nation through umbrer cash, and theysaid that this contract needs to be audited. The ETHEEMY COU system badlyneeds an audited dependency, free, JS library. This library can ffill the need. Here'sa thousand dollars towards that cause. They are people in the space. Youreally get it. They made that statement. Other people will donate towards thatand that's the type of dependency that, if we fund properly and this developer,I think I've just given a shout up, Paul Miller, who's working on this. Ifhe is funded to do this, it's good for everybody, public, ind, prostructors,roads and bridges for the future of the Internet and to your it's a lot ofsecurities hot. It is yes, it's a lot more confidence and some underlyingcryptography. That's used for everything, yeah incredible. Iobviously don't know enough about it. I to check it out, but now I know becausethe community has said something about it, and it's not something that I wouldhave like been able to figure out without these people, and now thesepeople are helping me here's another aspect of like a greedy benefit, or at least aconsequence of people, doing something like this, because it removes them fromtheir need to focus on what should be funded withwith money. Right is, if that's the case, if people do this and they relyon the signaling mechanism to allocate these funds, then a lot more attentiongets put on the signal mechanism and how fair it is and how good of a jobit's doing, and the education around what's important in the ecosystem, thetypes of things that should be funded Y, A and, if I were to guests like if Iwere to point to the most important things that need to be continued, an on going, it'seducation and understanding of where this pace is going and what's notgetting FROPPD en Oug fundings working those things. That's really good point.You think right, that's a thing that everyone has to do and comterconclusion on and use a signaling mechanism to say Anto like cast theirvote. Yep Yeah. That's a really good point. It's a really good point likethere's, there's two things that are going through my head: one is like theactual UX of the gitkuen grant site so that we can better allow people toeducate others. The simplest version of this right now is collections whereDanny Ryan, who runs many of these two things. I don't know if Youo'LD behappy with me, saing is with his reality. He had a collection of Esh twogrants that he wanted to see supported. I'm like who else in the world would Iever you know who knows more? Who would I just morethan Danny Ryan WHATC? Is it fund e men people use this word as a pejorative orlike a negative thing, but you're appealing to authority right it becausethey have the domain exportise that you don't have and you trust them right andit's in that case I'd call it a really good bet, but but the, but to put it at scaleright. There's, there's Danny Ryan talking about you to there's somebodyelse talking about privacy. There's somebody else talking about this.Talking about that and when I say talking about it, basically they'rejust putting the collection of grants that they would support and if you careenough about that topic for me, maybe that's dous, because I care a lot aboutthat and I look at somebody else. WHO's made a Dow collection and I get to lookthrough the projects that way. That's in my mind, kind of like one of thoseeducation streams where I use a Git Qoin grants around to try to like learnabout the new things that I have no idea that some part of the communityfound incredibly valuable and now I know- and that's one point but another point is:I am of the opinion. Thet Quadratofundi is fantastic and that we should bemaking it as good as it possibly can be, and we should be explorning othermechanisms. We need different ways to allogate what willsoon not be millions but billions of dollars in a good way and quadratic, pointing, I think, has a really good case to be the lionsshare at this point, with some of the things that have happened, but that weshould always be experimenting. Part of the reason is it's, this democratic nature of how thefunds are allocated and the fact that the individuals impact on the matching is quite literally like mathematicallyspeaking at its highest possible amount. A dollar contribution, Ind quadraticfunding- that is a vote towards a particular project, is worth almost asmuch as a hundred dollar contribution. All Tus as much as a thousand of thousand dolar contrimationthere'sthere's, there's not that much on that graph that you can do to...

...basically have so much money that you skew theresults of the rout. That's from a Mathematicl presective, one of thethings that I think is proving itself. That being said, there are other options. One examplethe Batalic mentions in that post is Uno swap grants, for example, youknowsop grants right now is like a five hundred million dollartreasury in theory focused on Unisop only what, if they allocated fiftymillion of that and fifty million of that was was more general. Maybe it'snot just everything, which is what Gitcoin's project is, were any opensource project you can put on there, but but maybe they put that fiftymillion towards broader defy in prestructure and maybe they're theright people to do something like that. But that's getting away from yourquestion the question on why for Padetic funding to me the answer is there is todate not a more democratic way withinwhich to allocate funds in a way that allows for every individual voice tohave as close to an equal playing field as possible, assuming that it can't be siviled, correct, correctby thesuming people, people can't pretend to be multiple, multiple smallfote at the same time, right right and that's where, like you know this lastcaudratic funding around was one point: nine million dollars, which is by farour biggest cuard Rito frent around it joy credible. Thank you. Thank you. Itwas amazing, and you know we're. You know we know goingfor one point: nine million dollars to a billion dollars is a huge jump andthe biggest part of it and the most exciting part about it. Is that, along the way, we're being forcedto work on these problems that have been problems on the Internet sinceit's begun, which is how can you ensure that one person is one person on theInternet? How can you make sure that there's not all these sockopic an? Howdo we validate it without without trampling individual rights? Exactlyexactly, and it's such a wonderful question to be spending time on withyou know the huge incentive to get it right from the GID coin perspective,because if you get this right, there's anincredible number of use. Cases on the Internet tat get opened up. If you canstart saying within a very high degree of confidence, I know that that's Coreypetty and it's the only cory petty on the Internet. No matter how muchcorybetty tries to fool us is not going to be it's not going to be economicallypossible, a d, that's where this stuff starts getting interesting. I would. Iwould be scared. You know shitless. If you told me tomorrow, let's do abillion dollars through a get coin, quadratic fundingground, but I do thinkthat the civil resistance work that's goingon now is going to allow R that to feel more and more comfortable. I agree. Iagree it's getting better a lot of the technology we're using is gettingbetter to like provide that functionality withwithout trampling on individuals, rights. IGTYEP. Any questions for me. May I IV beleavin conversation, mostly what o you ou? What do you wan talking about my my question, for you would be about yeah how your Colonel Experience wasthe future of these composable type communities,where you were a track leader for the securitytrack that had seventy to seventy five Kolonel fellows. I just sent yourlandscape of security and web three to a good friend who's, trying to breakIno Cripto I mentioned to you and I think we put together some really coolmaterials, but I'm curious what you thought about, how the program felt and how you could see it: involl Brogram, FELM, wonderful! It was likethe cohort of people who applied and an Wer vhere was th as it was, was such a high qualitygroup of people, and that was just within the securitytrack. I didn't have much exposure to everyone else, but what exposure I didhave to the rest of the colonel track was like. How did you get this manypeople together and get them to contribute to a cubudity? So so much right, because,like right now, the ultimate resource is attention and getting people to payattention to things and contribute to them, because there's so many optionsavailable right now across the board even outside of what three, and so likethe Group of people, that y? U Re you were able to gather both with in thesecurity track and elsewhere was was phenomenal. I wishthat I had more time to...

...teach them more right, because there'sso much to be learned might, in my opinion, about what security is in webthree and how it differenchates itself and what materials people can go to tobecome useful as fast as possible. NTES egosystem, especially with like handson material and and talking about wh, we did earlier like motivating peopleto actually do something, as opposed to watching Youtue, video and saying cool.I really like that. theyultimately not doing anything. So I think next generation is, isfocused on getting people to do things and trying to pasially gave the system toget them hands on experience and better understanding of what things they needto learn with respect to where they'd like to go to start becoming useful andcontributing to the communities that they want to be in, and I think that'san important part of it because, like I don't want to dofine their futureright, it's more about here, O the options that I see and thetools that are best used to to bootstrap yourself to get into thoseplaces. I mean if it like. You said T's, it'sit's anyone's individual journey. The Best I can do is give them tools to push them along that en the villjourney as fast as possible, based on the experience I've had and theexperience of the people that I've convinced to become partners and help.You do that. Many great people yeah that's great, that's really greatto year and I'm excited like from our side whatever we can do so that it's easierfor you to focus on the individual journeys and less focus on. You knowthe talks that we have to put together. Now, we've put some of the materialsout there. There's youtube anther right like an. I come from physics, PhD andconfetational science and teaching. I've talked graduate courses, and so,like my initial framework for doing this is veryacademic. It's show up to the lecture. Take your notes to your homeword. Ifyou do this work, you have an intuition of the concent. That may not be the ultimal way to do this type ofthing, especially when you're building trying to teach people how toparticipate in communities as fast as possible, and so restructuring that and trying toremove my personal academic bias. Even though it's is a useful FRAMEPORTAN CAUto like help, people is kind of where my yeah focuses now for this next track.Yeah we've done the work. We've put the syllabas out there right so now we giveourselves the space to focus on on the people, so it is a tessament to thework that you did using your physics PhD brain and now you get to put on thecommunity brain, more F, yeah, Thankgo, all right cool thanks Thanksporfectifor coming on the show. I'm I'm excited to start doing more ofthese and getting to know the people that Ihappen to spend my time with. I find ourselves they end. My in my experience. I findmyself talking with many interesting people,but never having the time to really understand them, and- and it stuff likethis, that I enjoy one more than like: Hey we're not having a meeting aboutwork, we're talking about what we care about and how we view the SECO systemand where it's going. So thanks for Ho Exporpatar part of that yeah. Thank you.It's been a lot of fun at the just one on one level and hopefully anyone who'swatching you enjoyed it as well. Appreciate youbeing apart.

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