Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 103 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #103: ExiledSurfer

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode we talk with ExiledSurfer, a man who has been in and around the space for quite some time. We'll talk about an upcoming hackathon (June 4 - June 18, 2021) he is putting together via Parallele Polis, how hackathons got started in the first place and found themselves being so prevalent in the blockchain industry, and a myriad of other topics including activism, the Cypherpunk movement, and the culture around hackerspaces. Enjoy! 

Social Media Of Parallele and Sovryn

The Hackathon

Exiled Surfer

Hashing It Out Social Media

Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Welcome back to the show, everybody. As always, I'm your host, Dr Corey Petty, on a hashing it out, and today we have exiled surfer to talk about all things cipher punk, hackathon, crypto culture and some upcoming work that we'll be doing together on a hackathon you're putting together. Kind of call you Michael. On the shows, you call me whatever it is that you that you feel like, as long as it's not a four letter word, you know I can handle that. Why don't you give us a quick introduction as to kind of who you are and what you do and where you came from? Originally from Malvi California. went to university to get an email address in one thousand nine hundred and eighty two, when it was still our penet grew up using software, talking to coders because I was basically went through the whole you know, desktop publishing thing, first from zerox flyers to working on a Macintosh and then Adobe Photoshop and then eventually into video and on all that stuff. So always being on the cutting edge of what what computers were enabling. So that brought me in touch always with coders and I never really learned how to code beyond, you know, learning basic with a three ring binder that came with the computer, but it was never really my thing. I was always, you know, kind of like a classic Alpha Beta user, and so grew up doing all kinds of stuff like that and eventually video. was always politically active, being a you know flower child from the s sort of speak, you know. And after I got burn out from working in an advertising agency around two thousand nine, I guess it was, I came back to Austria and was just basically doing real time online meme stuff during occupy and and anonymous and wiki leaks and all that stuff, and was involved in establishing hacker labs and and things like that, which eventually, you know, brought me into bitcoin in the crypto on stuff, being on different mailing lists and and just being interested in what was going on. And Yeah, so that was kind of that's kind of like the path. Got Lucky by basically meeting people on twitter in Crypto and ended up being the system in administrator for the Bitcoin Foundation in two thousand and thirteen. Put on Bitcoin two thousand and fourteen in in Amsterdam and went through a like totally crazy big personality period, you know core developers and Charlie Shrem and Mark Carpellis and Roger Bet and all those those those early, you know, big personalities in the space. So kind of like put my foot in the door in crypto professionally. Then came the four wars. Definitely a what a kind of you alive? Right, yeah, so was in the middle of a you know, just by by being the right place at the right time, was was in the middle of a bunch of interesting people that were doing interesting stuff and then kind of like a bored by what was happening in Bitcoin and all the sort of like the tribal arguments that that were that we're going on, and and all of a sudden atherium showed up and all it's sort of like, you know, offered this sort of utopic view people. People forget that that at Theorem was was launched on Bitcoin. So all the earth early etherium people were bitcoiners. And proof mistake was, is this idea to reduce the energy, you know, the sort of like environmental concern early was was was a big part of the theorium in its early days, and so etherium sort of like drew all of these these idealists and and people that sort of like seemed really familiar to me culturally, being, you know, California, half Hippie, half punk, sort of a kid and and it was the same sort of archetype that was that was involved in a theorium and and was looking,...

...you know, to to, you know, move things forward, and only technologically but socially. And bitcoin. It's sort of like lost that, other than the real hardcore libertarian, you know. So and and ran sort of a thing and ended up at this amazing at this amazing project called Eith status, which which was absolutely, you know, aligned with my values. Carl and jared and and yourself and the whole team. They're back in two thousand and eighteen. You know, we're really focused on building from a values perspective and it was wasn't only about the tech, but it was about the social aspects of it early, early movement into, you know, decentralized autonomous organizations, dows. We did a lot of work on that stuff and that was an incredibly exciting period until etherium crashed. What is it down to sixty and remember it's her right. It really hurt and it hurt me too, because I was one of the people that got let go in that period. And so after that sort of got involved. Actually, we met the first time at a hackathon in person. Right, when we had that, was alive in Berlin. No, it cryptolife in Prague. Or do we meet at Eath Berlin? A Berlin first, okay, right, yeah, so eath Berlin we met first. Yeah, and then we want to get you and Andy Wax Putic for hours night and then crypto wanderer, right, yeah, and then, yeah, right, the philosophic medic games was wrong. Yeah, and then we did crypto life together and Prague for first status during decom for I guess it was right. Yeah, yeah, and and so that's sort of like set me off into a space. They're being involved with with with hackathons and in the etherium space. And then went on to build a virtual conference platform called Inner Space Chat which is integrated, you know, virtual conference space, open source available on on Github to be forked and also supported by grants on Gitcoin and stuff like that. And then sovereign BEDC showed up at the beginning of the year and was invited over to be the community lead for sovereign, and sovereign has been really incredibly exciting. It's grown from, you know, at the beginning of January, I guess it was about fifteen or sixteen core people that have brought the project to that point to be launched publicly, and we've grown to sixty and that period. So it's been incredibly excited. Exciting is the community lead to set up the communications channels and building the Wiki for information and and all of these things. It's been an amazing time. And so through this growth period, you know, we were looking, like everybody, for solidity DADS and do iux people, and so I started digging around in that, you know, ten years of experience and asking around. Hey, cool, I'm working at sovereign. Now we're doing defy on bitcoin. Finally we've got composability on the RSK side chain, you know, and using solidity and hey, come on, come on over and everybody's working right. So I was like, Hmm, what am I going to do about this? How do I get in touch with with more talent, more devs? How do we, you know, build out all of the products and ideas that we have for defy on Bitcoin? And so halcathon was just the the obvious road because you know eat Berlin, burtht, you know metacartel, that has gone on and done all of these, all the different talls and has a great you know, Equity Sharing and governance and all that stuff. Uni Swap and Sushi swap also came out of hackathons and and so it was just kind of like an obvious, you know, path take to put that together with with sovereign BTC as a project, because it's written in all the contracts are written in solidity. So where do you go? You go to Getcoin, which is really cool because getcoin is like now finally spun out from consensus. They've done, you know, millions of dollars worth of development and open source over the last year's and the team is phenomenal, the product is phenomenal, the the community is phenomenal. And so with sovereignth on are looking to you know, to basically bridge this sort of, I guess I'd call it pseudo tribalism. I think probably traders and and and, you know, retail people are the ones that are allowed us on twitter about about technology of their favorite chain. But most of the people that I know...

...on both sides of of the technology sphere, you know, are pretty integrated and both are paying attention to what's going what's happening on on on both chains. And so getcoin seems like the best place to bring bitcoiners and and etherium devs together to advance defy on Bitcoin with sovereigns. And I definitely think there's you. You, you kind of spoke to this, like let's wait, I don't want to get to that. That was a long introduction, but it's like that's I want to take a step step back. Yeah, I've been doing and I guess this is could be one of those. I've been doing these more one on one interviews. If someone joined, someone may join later if they if they feel they have a time of can. But like, I've been doing this one on one interviews that are more personal and I've been asking the same question to those people, which gives a good understanding of the underlying motivation, which will springboard into the question I was about to ask. And then it's like what do you care about? Like what is it that what is it the thing that you care about that's kept you in the space for so long and motivated to keep working in the directions you've been working at. I guess you could say that I've always been an adversarial thinker. I've never been really happy with the status quo and I think that, at least for me personally, if I'm not serving my fellow man, I'm not really fulfilling my own purpose on the planet, and you know, that's been reflected in the different political movements that I was involved in, whether it was free to bet or Palestine or occupy Wall Street, as one of the the original people that got that going. So I guess what motivates me is improving is improving life for other people. I've I'm I come from a click privilege background. You know, I'm a I'm a white guy with the university education at it expensive. You Know University. You know what what you know? I've had it. I've had every advantage that you can possibly have been a white kind of atomize necessary power discrepancies, right, like yeah, and and you know, growing up with with with feminist values, where gender and race and religion are not really important. And so it keeps me in Crypto is is a pairing of the adversarial thinking with the desire to improve the world. And the fact it the most exciting thing for me about Crypto is the permissionless nature of it. Right, if you have an Internet connection and you are capable of reading, you can get involved with a permissionless, borderless economy and culture and, you know, social consensus. And this was one of the original promises of the Internet, which is like really been damped and by all the surveillance capitalism and the ownership of the advertising as what pays for it all and everything. And you know, I've just I've just watched the Internet, you know, deteriorate from from this place where nobody was paying attention to us. Right at the beginning it was like literally a free space, a safe space from you know, physical spaces if you're or political activist. Nobody was really paying attention to us. And now it's all been sort of like, you know, year by year it just feels smaller and smaller and smaller and so the permissionless nature of Crypto, that all you need is a public private key pair to interact with other people and transact permissionaliste, whether it's financially or with messaging, like by status, like we were talking about, you know, a couple years back. This is not only empowering on a social sense, but it's empowering technologically. The combination of open source software with permissionless public private key pair of technology has unleached incredible innovation in the space. Right, it doesn't matter where you are on the planet, if you can get online and get involved with the community, you can literally do anything that you want that you can't do in many countries, right and that you don't need a license, you don't need government approval, you don't need to show a diploma, you know, if you can, like we always talk about CIPHERPUNK's right code. You're judged by what it is that you do, and that's probably, I think the most exciting thing about the space is that it's it's it's not a meritocracy that leads to, you know, a few people controlling everything. It's a meritocracy that's continually being challenged by other people that are coming up...

...and into the space and are standing on the shoulders of giants. The open source culture of having code being available to everybody to be forked, to be audited. Every person that comes in is starting at a higher level than I started, you know, thirty years ago, and the permissionist nature of that is what enables all this phenomenal innovation, whether it's in governance or whether it's in tokenomics or, you know, all of the the different areas that we see activity and Crypto. That's the motivating thing. And on the last part of it, what keeps me involved in Cryptos the people. And it's amazing to be working with people across, you know, time zones, across borders. The only relevant geography anymore for me personally is a time zone. And and we're not quite corey doctor talked about that with Eastern Standard tribe almost twenty years ago. And and so this, this sort of liability to connect with peers and to think and be intellectually active and be doing things that that we hope will improve everybody's life is what keeps me going. There's a lot to unpack. Their man all right, because I agree with so much of it, and but I there's also parts of it that makes thing except the simultaneously make things difficult, but it's also like so it makes it make it a more difficult but more muddy and confusing, and I'm curious about what rises to the surface. Right. So, like you said earlier, pick first off. I'm not sure I've talked with anyone that has been around during the early days of the Internet and been involved with it who's happy with the way it progressed. Yeah, so I've set off and like this is the second round where we get a chance to to, you know, repair what we fucked up the first time around. We have the chance to actually build insecurity at the base layer, and we didn't. Shows he chose efficiency in a lot of ways exactly. We chose efficiency. And and then the you know, there was this whole drive that that towards towards mass market acceptance, which was driven by e commerce. Right, also had a narrative that was wonderful, like there was there was a public narrative of the Internet as a wonderful thing. We need to make it as big as possible, as fast as possible, so that we can reach we can give people access to information they've never had before and the reality is spanned their world view and that it really happened. It had a process, in a process of that like, but it's like today. Write. Like many people's lives is on totally better than what it would have been because they have access to the Internet. But the way in which we got to that point created two types of power structures that are almost impossible to defeat or like. It's minds, monumental to think about the process of undoing the power structures that currently exists, like the asymmetry and power the current exists based on the way the Internet is created and those that control it make, like always make blockchain and that and the ideals that originally brought the Internet together. Like the underdog in a lot of ways. Yeah, so I guess at that. I identify with that. I identify with being the underdog. I like the scrap and we're definitely have that attitude. Its sovereign right, the underdog scrap, the you know, urn of the message, really mess you know it's like, but you know, you know, aside from the graphics and aside from the language, I think that that, you know, that's that. That said. So sort of like solidarity, bit with the with, you know, the working class or or you know, like you say, the the underdog, and and the Internet had that at the beginning and it's gotten it again with crypto. Right. So there's definitely a tremendous amount of what I would consider idealists that at least bootstrap these networks, and you mentioned it with Bitcoin. Mean if they're still there, but as we get court I could say I should well, let and because it's so inclusive the whole they let. You could go on here like well, T wake, we baked into this whole ecosystem, and you mentioned this and you and you and you marveled at it. We've baked in inclusivity. That's what makes it appealing to many of us is that we get to interact with so many different types of people and they have a voice, a much larger voice than they previously did. But in the process of Ma getting so inclusive, we leave room for the same thing to happen, for the people...

...to come in and build things in a permissionless way that just make more stronger power structures that previously existed. That because that maybe more efficient, because they can do whatever they want without the the regulations and and I don't want to call on like the the the watchers, to keep people, to keep the underdog safe in a lot of ways, and I'm not one hundred percent convinced that reality will treat both. will tend towards us not doing the exact same thing, but with money involved, and I worry about that because it's really hard to maintain your ideals while building is technology, because it's more difficult. You can't choose efficiency over privacy and security, and many will make that decision when it comes to like the near future, scaling and make becoming what would be consider successful. Man, that's I'm all ready now. There's so much to unpack there. I have to throw that one back into like I could probably talk about half an hour, you know, about any one of those strands that you just sort of like wove wove together. I think you and I have been talking a long time about the fear of what blockchain technology means in the hands of the surveillance state. Let's so, let's let's attack that one first, right. So we have what we see happening in China, where they have a very, very clear policy towards being to having digital currencies and having it both for the and the efficiency in the economy and also having also having it for the surveillance aspects. Right. So that is one of the sides of the Double Edged Sword of Open Public Ledger Technology. Right. So that's the China model. And then we have so like, if we want to take it to the corporate side, we have DM with with facebook. That's pairing it with the already existing eyeballs and that's paired with the whole American surveillance state, surveillance capitalism model. Right, we have those two things sort of competing with each other, and then we have, you know, bitcoin and and etherium and other and other chains, sort of like in the middle. Let me, let me, let me leave that as just sort of like a foundation for what it is that I actually want to say. Yeah, so, so my hope has been for many years is that what it is that we're building becomes coopted by the state and by existing institutions, right, that what it is that we're building is a more efficient system where everybody knows it's what's going on and and you have at least, you know, a view into what's going on, if you don't always have control over it, which is not the case of prior you know my sql database, you know finance and and and user information metadata, sort of like models. So so I think that there's there's this like constant tension that what we're building we hope will be the way it is that society is organized, but that's in direct competition with existing legacy institutional interest both financial and social, those of control. But when I look at that, I feel like, you know, people say, you know, are we winning or we losing? And I say and, and my answers always is yes, we're winning because we're driving the debate, we're driving technology, we're driving, you know, acceptance forward and and I don't know what the outcome is going to be, but I can say that in in what it is that I look at as a social observer and just watching the planet around me, I see that it is it's not a flippening that's happening, but there is definitely more sort of like distributed power happening in the generations that are coming behind me. Yeah, there's a different awareness and a different set of expectations that have been enabled by the Internet and by consensus rule sets in in blockchains, right and and and I feel like. I don't want to say that we're winning, but I feel like we're making progress and I don't see how the so the state based currency and surveillance models that are being tacked onto block chains are going to survive. It's not something that's going to happen in three or five years or even ten. We're talking about a multigenerational process, but it just seems to me that it will, that systems will tend towards towards an equilibrium, which is more...

...fair, because there's so many factors that are going on we'ren't even talking about. You know, if we look around the world, there's all these political things going on. You know, it doesn't really matter which is im you live under, which country. You know, it's the same oligarchic bullshit, you know, with their with their local flavor, right. But we're looking down. We're looking down the the the gun barrel of global warming, right. We we really don't know how serious and how fast this stuff is going to be happening. We don't know how much longer debt based economies can continue printing money. Right. Where's that inflection point? Where is that shelling point, where all of these twenty century, paradigms intersect and all of a sudden shit just fucking breaks up, right, and the hope is inside of the the cryptocurrency idealistic community is that the systems that we're building are going to be there to catch everybody when things the way they are stopped working. It's an apocalyptic you know, it's an apocalyptic cult in it's worst case scenario. Hope, right, like, yeah, I mean, let me because I see what you're saying and I and I can definitely see that as a possibility in a lot of the and it's a lot of the hope of those that are involved. But, like, if we move it away from focusing on state based actors and focus on capitalistic based actors and just human group or what it means to if we if we even just pull away motivation all together, like'll still take away malice all together in terms of like humans desire to control others and we label it as the types of decision one makes when the remove from the people that impacts. If you look at and the metrics they use for success, right. So, like, depending upon what you use for quote unquote success, more often than not that's business make money and how far remove you are from that definition of success and it's impact on those obviously outside of it. It that leads towards the types of tech systems and giant monopolies we have today. And in a lot of ways, and I'm not convinced that we're not going to do the same thing with a more permissive, more free flowing technology of money and and and give. What you've mentioned was was, I think, an incredibly important aspect of this. Like, ostensibly, we're rising the tide across, across the board, with transparency, would which gives us some like two things. Well, there's two things that we have with this technology we don't have otherwise, and that is to when we have more transparency than we ever did, we're able to pinpoint that power distribution much better than we used to be able to and say this isn't right, we don't like it, and here's proof of it. We also have, and a lot of ways more so than others, the ability to opt out, to say I don't like this and I have options to leave it. So like that's those are too too really fundamental things that I think this technology is working to give regular people, or like the people who are more often impacted than those impacting up on others. But I would argue that those who are, who are able to make those decisions, still aren't capable of finding the information to make it. And those that would like to convince those people of a given narrative are even more so empowered to do so because it's so confusing. Like look at today, right, we have people who will even flat earth and you name it right, and they're in their wholesale convinced that this is the truth and there's nothing you can do about it, regardless of whatever it that you give them. The more difficult you make the process of telling the truth and pointing to it and giving evidence, the more likely they are to say, I don't care, it's not what I believe and okay, can it. Can I stop you at that point? And and sort of and sort of like respond two things. I want to mention two people in the space, in the etherium space, Hudson Jamison at the theorem foundation, raising...

...exactly the questions amongst the in the etherium communities about what it is that we're building. The fear of oligarchy, the fear of combining tech with finance and what it can mean and Vinegupta, who was the launch manager from materium, who you've interviewed, from a Theorem, who you've interviewed as well, who's also now taking a standpoint and saying, okay, what does the theoreum stand for? Right? Do we stand for just these, you know, pump and dump coins, you know finance on etherium. Where do we stand in the in the cultural debate about what this technology means? So these things are being discussed by leaders in the space. I think so it's not. It's not an undo. It's not in a topic that's not being addressed and there's people like Griff Green and Jeff Emmett with, you know, common stack and giveth that are that are been pushing these ideas for very many years that are seen as sort of like the burning mans, like Hippie side of it. But the these discussions are happening inside the theoreum next to the rest of the get get rich stuff. I want to take that to go back and say you're saying, like you know, how do we, how do we work against people that literally don't give a fuck, like here's the truth, then a like no, it just doesn't align with what it is. I believe and the in the influence of those people. That's the big part, and the influence of those people based on metrics that are are traditionally successful, and that's money. So I want to take this back to my childhood. Okay. So, so when I went to school, we weren't taught what to think, we were taught how to think. We were taught really from from the great school level, in public schools, and amazing time, I got very, very lucky that. You know, you went to school and the P and the teacher said to you, Question Authority, right, question everything that we say, and they taught us, I believe, they taught us how to discern between between fact and falsehood, right, how it is to how do you look at at a scientific study and understand whether it's been paid for by a lobbying group or whether it's been actually done using the scientific method? Right? So we were taught to question everything and have a sense of reality that was that was individualized, but had some sort of consensus because other people thought the same way. And now we're in this state, we're in this dystopic state which was, you know, pretty well, pretty well spelled out by that by, you know, the trump presidency and the lingering effects of the trump presidency and his ability to convince people that media or intellectuals or knowledge was not to be trusted. What I want to say to what I want to say is in comparing my childhood with with what or my my youthful life with what people are experiencing now, is is that this is a trend that you see like a wave going through society. Right, I don't think it's that be all an end all of the state of the planet. Right, it's something that happens across generations and it's a wave that goes that goes up and down. My hope is that there will be just as much of a backlash towards, you know, willful ignorance as there has been for knowledge or some you know, common scent of consensual rules about reality. Yeah, I don't think that this is going to continue. I just don't see how it can. It's sort of like social yeah, it's I hope you're right. Yeah, it's something that written the in, I would say, in the tail end of actually, what you're seeing is more not the actual roots of the problem, but you're seeing the the the results of the roots of the problem and the really the roots of the problem lay in, you know, basically can if we're going to talk about America, you know, lay in conservatives ability to capture the media narrative and to capture the educational narrative, where it is that you have textbooks that are, you know, required across public school systems, that are that are written and controlled by people who are literally religious fanatics and and you know, this is this is you know, people grow up with a whole with a completely different set of information, you know, to establish their beliefs on. I don't see it continuing. I like I said, there's so many different societal and cultural factors that are that are coming together at this time that we're alive, that are converging. These twenty century paradigms just literally don't work and I think we're experiencing the death of them. So the ignorance that you're talking about, I think it was willful ignorance. Is is not what we're going to be seeing ten years from now.

It just happens to be what we're living through at the moment. My inclination is that you're wrong. I hope you're right, but if I think about, like what I get excited about and Cryptos the possibility that we're able to change some of that societal influence through the types of things that we're doing based on like drastically changing the Adamics of human relationships on the Internet and the weight in which information is spread and and what credence you give to it, right, making get more obvious of the influence of a given individual and the things they're influencing, because in a lot of ways, even if you make if you do call them social tokens, are not you're able to see the power, like the distribution of power and encryptosystems, and the more we attach meeting to that, the more you can kind of see social relationships Ed and flow with like the influencers at the time and how they're using that influence. And I and that's not the case for the informations we have information systems we have in place today, like the more off than not, the influence of how information spreads on the Internet and how it extiminated. It an in the hands of people who read it, who end up being willfully ignorant, don't understand what the information came from and but paid for it at work across the board. It's not conservatives or liberals, it's just across the board, because it's whoever pays the most for it gets it. And that's basically the way, of my opinion, the Internet is built, and what we're trying to do is to alter that process a little bit and make it more both transparent and opt outable so you can make better relationships. And I'm yes, so, so I think that this is again we're back at that point about, you know, consensus rule sets, right, which is it? Which is at the base layer of Bitcoin? It's a it's a it's a social consensus to agree to a set of rules that that you govern your behavior by. And so while you're talking about all this like, you know, fucked up surveillance, capitalism, algorithmic, you know, perpetuation of information, simultaneously that is a completely is a community of people, millions of people around the hundreds of millions of people on the planet that are literally already over that they're already participating in what it is that we've built. Yeah, and and those people are younger than the people who are consuming. You know this. This this other form of communication and and consensus building. So maybe I do you know, maybe I'm I just want to believe in a positive narrative as opposed to a negative one, because I guess that if you're going to look at some point, if you're going to just look at all the shit that's going on, is not being cool. You know, the the end thing is always putting a bullet in your head right say yeah, I want to be positive. I have have to as I don't know, maybe it's just a part of my background and what I've seen most of my life doing. I have to try and understand the whole narrative and we're like a good portion of the way I see the world is trying to understand like the distribution of power and how it and how it disseminates over time, and that comes from like the physics ide it, for for for my my academic career, and that's heavily influenced how I see the world and how I try and understand things. It's the one mistake that I think that I felt that I made. You know, I came to physics so late in my life. I really wish that I had, you know, studied physics at university and set of political science and economics to be honest. That's a useful things too, like it's does are those are the it's very similar situation in terms of how power flows through a system. It's just different, different governing rule sets, right, the rules that govern how power flows between physics, economics and political science, for all different, and so that changes the way one person, one energy source or potential can affect the rest of the system. Okay, so with physics it's known. We know the rules of physics, so we can model those systems really accurately to make predictions right. And then with economics and political science it gets way more fuzzy and so, like our modeling becomes much more probabilistic. We need ensembles of sets in terms of like a lot of different outcomes, and then trying to assign weights those outcomes gets really muddy and up for...

...interpretation. And that's that's the that's the difference to those two things is that one is concrete and making predictions and then reiterating on the underlying the kitten dynamics that work, and the others are not. So they have to. They're always going to be money. But it's the same concept and how you do the world cool. So let's let's make this really timely. Let's let's let's talk about, you know, the energy footprint of block chains. Right, this top topic at the move. Good idea, good unintended transition. Right. So, if you're so, so, the earliest people that I knew in Bitcoin were either physics professors and physics students or poker players. They were the the were the earliest people that understood what Bitcoin was, right. And so the transition that I'm trying to make is is the is the understanding that people like Nick Carter and others have, which is slowly becoming part of the narrative, is that bitcoin forces a search for the most efficient form of energy, which is eventually which is renewables. And what it is that we're trying to get to is a real time metering of an actual of an energy budget for the planet it I don't agree that the most efficient form of energy is renewables. Okay, well, we can talk about nuclear. Most globally economically efficient one maybe, but like in terms of like, if you, if you, if you, depends on what you call the system. Right, if you don't give a shit about exhaust and global warming, then fossil fuels are by far the most efficient form of energy. Okay, but what we're talking right? But like this like a yeah, sure, sustainable for like, but the Black Guy? That's yes, most definitely. I Love I love guard George Carlins thing, you know, like why is it that? Why is it that we have plastic? You know, what is the meaning of life? And it's the meaning of life. Is that the earth wanted plastic. Right, how do I get plastic? You know, dinosaurs leave them in the crust, you know, and eventually, you know, I'll create humans so that the humans can turn it into plastic. Right, sort of sort of thing. And so there's this, there's this. We've been burning solar energy, basically stored solar energy, for for, you know, a few generations now, let's say two hundred years, right to power industrial economies. And what I'm reaching for is that what bitcoins proof of Work Algorithm drives towards is looking for the cheapest form of energy, the less friction amount of energy, and that the argument is, is that eventually, if we're using energy efficiently in a renewable, sustainable form, that that's a far more efficient basis for a unit of the count on the planet. Then burning stored energy. Yeah, right, did have I encapsulate that? Find it so far? Okay, I have arguments already, but it keep going right, okay, so I'm and I'm cool with nuclear, to with new generation nuclear. Right, so I'm not. I'm not an environmental will you know, maxilist about that stuff. I understand the physics and you know of you know moving shit around and how much you know with the third thermodynamics are of it. But the essential argument that were that we're making is is that this consensus rule set searches for an efficient form of energy, and the the further down it is that you can do that at the base layer of society, the more efficient everything else will become. Are you cool with that sort of like sure, right, going, okay, cool. So recently now we have all this fud coming out of China. You know that they're banning bitcoin again, and the actual messaging is okay, we want to have minors being registered and using renewables, with with reporting on renewables, and we want to stop all of the Ponzi pump and dump scheme Crypto, you know, stuff that's happening in the Asian market and is bled over into Western markets and stuff like that, right. So there's a recognition there on that side of the planet that we want to move towards renewables and we're not going to be stopping proof of work chains or even proof of steak chains, and it's even no part of their modeling for how it is they want to do currency. And then we have the Western model now with Elon Musk, who's basically trolling the fucking world, you know, and you know, maniculating the markets with tweets. I mean he's basically the cryptodonald trump as far as I'm concerned. You know, adds that we have, you know, him and Michael Sailor, who are talking to the American miners. Right. This is still awesome, right. This is another place where it is that I feel like Crypto is winning,...

...because now you have like China doing their blockchain energy policy and you have America doing their blockchain energy policy. There's not really any discussion anymore about whether this stuff is viable or whether it's going to be stopped. It's a question of how it is that nation state actors are are placing themselves, you know, in this in this New Paradigm, right, and I find this to be incredibly fascinating on a powerflow level, like like you're talking about right, comment of the Thomas from Colin, our cofounder, love Crypto, Donald trump comment. It's like, all right, so few things that I have of this one. Yes, the narrative has changed. It is no longer is this stuff viable, it's about what's the what's the economically best way to fuel it, which then, add on at a national level, influences the push for more renewable energy and ostensibly lowers the footprint of what proof of work does. Now we can, we may, get into an argument of whether or not, like the like, what proof of work actually is and that transformational process of raw energy into security and whether or not it's important today, at least the smits comparison to other considers, obeg Thans, like proofers. We don't have to have that discussion where we're at in this conversation right now. But yeah, go ahead, and I and I do really like that. That's where the narrative have shifted and it's no longer a concept of like just proof of work work. It does. It does a good job of reasonably fair consensus, like coming to an agreement on something that allows open, arguably permissionless, participation. Well, because it's global shared state. What we have is a global shared state. That's a it's a global race to energy efficiency, and court doctor has argued about this in terms of whether or not that use of energy is best served for something like Bitcoin or a proof of work blockchain. His argument is there. First of all, there's there's I guess there's a there's an ongoing argument that Bitcoin leaches the unused energy off the power grid more often than not. I have not been convinced in any way that this is the case and it seems as though most the arguments are like pretty then sketchy. Right, it's not. It's not good enough for me, even if that is the case and that that's the market it exists in. Cory doctor has argued that there are much better, societally better things to spend that market of energy on, the things like proof of work, and I would argue with him only if there weren't alternative and potentially just as good or better consensus algorithms to get the same thing done with the same level of security. Now, what Bitcoin does, or proof of work chains in general, is it allows you to have an external resource, energy, be transformed into an internal digital scarcity, bitcoin. The process of that is subject to fairness based on what the distribution of machines is that does that, where you get the energy, what you're available cooling is to make sure those machines stay cool and efficient, your available broad band, etc. And the actual machines. Bitcoin a six for Bitcoin GP use for most everything else, excluding a few other few other things, like bitcoin cash or something. I'm not sure they still on pick a six. I think they are. Can't believe you even dropped that reference. Okay, whatever these Duncans have have value to them, so that people are spending energy. Doesn't matter whether or not you care about the coin or the underlying idealogy. Yeah, behind it right, so like and so that. That's arguably fair, depending upon how easy you can get access to the most efficient machines and who manufactures them and so on and so forth, or or your Geolo geographically located to run the machines that are needed. These are all like quality arguments. If proof of work is the only way to do this, and yes, proof of work is, as far as I can tell, the only way to take an external resource and transform it into a digital scarcity. That's that's the most fair digital scarcity, like...

...uncontrolled by any jurisdiction. The jurisdiction that controls the digital scarcity are the producers of the like efficient energy and environments. But since we have that works of incredibly high value, we're transitioning to networks of incredibly high value that are based on proof of stick. So so collins, mentioning, you know, Chia and post and and making arguments or at least, you know, talking about critics like we're not sure. I mean like we're coming up with a bunch of different consensus rule sets that aren't based on that energy efficiency market that I just talked about, hm, that aren't wasteful. We go from that like, and it's so like the argument that it's like it's one hundred percent wasteful. No, it's not wasteful. That's meaningful work that provides meaningful security to the security guarantees of a blockchain. And do that you're burning it, you're it's your burning energy in a real way so that people can't undo those transactions. That gives a lot of value to the like confidence in those transactions. We don't need to buy coffee with that, but need to get to that conversation. But, like, if you can provide the same level of security and fairness and availability to a same digital scarcity while not having the waste, then the argument about whether or not it's useful in an energy market is stupid. It's not useful because we could do it better some other way. We just couldn't do it better some other way until arguably reasonable. So, Collins, maintenance, you know, talking about, you know, an arms race here in the sense and and I'd like to I'd like to to address that that. So, like you know, bitcoins core ideology is game theoretical, right, and the the core of game theory as we know it came out of the Cold War, out of research that was done by the Rand Corporation, which was located directly behind the university that I went, where I where I went to school, and the lecturers came there and they you know, and they talked about mutually assured destruction and the game theoretics of this, this sort of stuff, and we're sort of like still locked in that, in that paradigm, and I want I mentioned this because I want to ask you like a really, you know, unfair question, but I think it needs to be asked. Do you think that Bitcoin is the and of consensus rule sets, or do you think that we're going to see, let's say, either more energy efficient rule set become dominant or a completely different rule set that we don't even know about yet as being the basis for for you know, digital currencies and and you know digital scarcity, causual scarcity. Yeah, absolutely not. Like there's there's that's. This by no means the end in any way, shape or form. In my opinion, it's the beginning and the Bir already seeing a lot of experimentation and different ways of either doing two different things. One is, how do we take an extra like a real world external resource, and transform that into security, into digital scarcity? Right, who use that for consensus? That creates some type of digital scarcity that we can agree upon, some trustless system, and that is to the like. And that's anything that does that takes an external resource, like a proof of work or proof of storage, and converts the use of that thing and to say a security of the network. And then you have proof of stake systems, which is using an internal resource. I may be clear on a first off, a differentiator between these two things. In proof of work you can only have sticks. Sorry, you can only have carrots. There's no such things, as so far as I'm aware of, at least with im proof of work, there's no such thing as sticks. You can't penalize a validator for participating a consensus when you're taking an external resource, at least within the within the system itself. Right, I can't, because you're putting it up front. I am putting energy up front in order to get a chance of participating in consensus and being rewarded if I win. Now, the other way to penalize that person is to do something outside of the system itself. So with proof of stick system, your you have the addition of introducing sticks if you so choose to, because you're using an internal resource to wait the decisions...

...upon the consensus operathm so like. And that way you're not only do get paid commensurate to the steak you're putting up, you can also be a be taken away because you're putting it at stake in the end. Right, okay, so that's the description of the to proof of work and proof of stake, and the question is, are either one of these. You know the be all end all, or are we? No, there's no be all end all. It's well, it depends like so. I mean, I don't believe in hyper bitcoinization myself. Yeah, I do think it is the is, you know, the best digital scarcity that we have at the moment. Yeah, but I don't believe that the world is going to be running on Bitcoin. You know, I just don't see it happening. And maybe it, maybe not. Maybe Bitcoin, but my opinion it wouldn't be. Bitcoin is the way we see it today. HMM. So there's there's plenty of there's plenty of opportunity to change it. These things can hard work and they can transition to better technology if the communities decide to do so. In the event of global warm we become an issue and we can no longer burn dinosaurs. Maybe it would be an impetus. Maybe it's transition to something that already exists. Right, it depends, in my opinion, on the fairness of the control and distribution of the external resource. Energies Pretty Damn close the best thing we got from an External Resource, external available resource, in terms of proof for stake. It's whether or not these things can actually work and boots trapping. A proof of stake system is actually much harder. It's easy to take an equally available or more fair available external resource like energy and build security and digital scarcity and value from that because it already exists. You're taking an already existing distributed resource and converting it into something else, where as proop for stake, you're making it from nothing and calling it value. Your in essence, you're quantifying some value that already exists, that's never been quantified before and that can that's that subject to manipulation and and and height and things like that. That is harder to find, like realistic price discoveries. Yeah, we have really drifted every really have off the off the rails here. Okay, this is nothing to do with hackers. Like the description says hacker spaces and it's yeah, so we got five prize carrot categories in sovereign thought, the throw us back toll, like. Okay. So first, before we go into me, we have to we have a little bit of time. I have you for longer than longer than this, like talk about you. You talked about it in the beginning of this like you're using hacker spaces to using hackaphons, and the concept of that came from hacker spaces as a way to attract attention and to get people to do quality work on a project you care about, but also find talent and in a way like get them to like have fun and contribute in a meaningful way to something that you care about. You talk about that process and then we'll talk about how, like Socer, though, is doing this. So I think one of the things that I that I discovered most in by in participating in hackathons, was this sort of like being a part of a band. Yeah, there's like not everybody can play a music and musical instrument. Yeah, but everybody likes to go to a good, you know jam session at Somebody's House. Yeah, and there's that aspect of it is that you get people together in a room and some of them can do this and some of them can do that and you know, there's always like there's a base, there's a guy who plays the bass and there's a guy who plays the drums and they set the rhythm right and then everybody runs around that and the melody happens around and depth, you know, and develops around that. And it's the same way and you know, in hacker spaces there's people that are core, that have a set of talents right, that can actually manifest stuff, and there's people that have ideas that don't necessarily have the skills but have a different set of, you know, real world experiences where they're looking to solve problems for and you can start at a hackathon. You know that it starts out as a Lineux hackathon and then you end up with somebody who's actually, you know, d printing and object you know, and and, you know, figuring out some you know, some sort of the hackathon ends up going somewhere completely different than where it is that it started, because people discovered a set of problems that they need...

...to that they need to overcome to get where it is that they want to go, and then they realize while they're going there that actually they'd rather go there. And that's sort of like epiphany. That's sort of like poisy, that's sort of like spontane is what happens around Hackathons, ling off each other. People get together and riff off of each other, right. So that's that's essentially the culture is that, you know, the curiosity, the problem solving, you know that sort of thing happens when people have different backgrounds and different talents come together with an idea. That where they think they want to go, but maybe they end up going somewhere else, and that end the other place that they go is just as valid. And so, to bring it back to an idea of like, you know, the hackathon for sovereign, it's not really so important that we end up with a set of projects, that it is that we want to continue supporting with grants or that we want to integrate with the platform, but finding those people that are thinking in a problem solving way, finding that talent. You see that by the submissions right, the process that people go through. Okay, I started here and I ended up over here. Actually, I came to the Hackathon, you know, to do some data science and I end up, you know, doing, you know, something that has to do with decentralization and or, you know, or shielded transactions, because the people that I met that I was trying to get involved in what it is that I was interested in, actually showed me something that I was more interested in would be more valuable to build for the community. And so it's a it's a it's sort of like a you know, it's like the grab bag at a party, right, you know, like you reach in and you get your prize sort of thing. You never know what that prize is going to be. And that's that's what I that's where I think hackathon culture is. It's getting people together that try and solve problems and they find each other. Yeah, and there experience so far. Man, what's what are good ways to try and spark that excitement without straining it into certain paths too much, right, because if you need you need some nice balance there in terms of want, getting people there that are excited. You need people to show up and human attention is hard. So there has to be something that attracts them. Think you need to give them things to do with some incentive behind it, usually monetarily, and some pre shape or form through bounties or winners and prizes and Shit. And then you need to not really constrain them, but at least like give them something to be sparked by, give them give them a like lighter fluid to throw on something. So I guess how do you do that? So that so, the so, so, the the lighter fluid is, you know, the tracks that you set up and the bounties that you write. Right, that's just sort of like the lighter fluid the spark comes from. That sets it a flame are the people that come together in the social and the social gathering. And you see that, you know, it like chaos computer club, right, when you go to chaos, you know it's so literally thousands of people that then meet and some of them are organized and it and and plan on meeting in advance. And then there's the serendipitous contact that you have in the physical space. That is just the way that life is. You know, you cross paths and you taught, you know, you're having a conversation, smoking a cigarette, you know, and drinking your beer or on your way to the can and you meet somebody that you've never met before and just happens to be the one person that was missing in your life to do the one piece of the puzzle for an idea that it is you have. The question is, I mean, that's a pretty natural process, right. The question is, how do you do that in a virtual setting, in a time of pandemic and with virtual conferences? Right, and the idea with interspace chat is is exactly that that you have the live streams, you have the talks, you have the discord chat, you have the schedule of what's going on, you have the integration with the get coin platform and you create this space where you ask people to come together, you know, in a concentrated period of time, to get to know each other at the beginning of the hackathon. So the for the for us, it's the fourth, fifth and sixth of June, concurrent with Bitcoin Miami, that people come together and they look and they discover the bounties. There's the incentive there. Oh, we can make some money. Oh, here's the topics that I'm interested in, and then you just sort of like let that disperse and percolate and then you and then you maintain sort of the social relationships and the excitement. You can watch it happening in the chat channels when people are finding teams and talking about the ideas that it is that they want to build right, and then you just sort of like let that go. Yeah, and then you...

...give it time and and sober though, is running for for six weeks until the submissions are due, and you just have to maintain that social contact, just like it is that you do with any community around any project. It's sort of like, you know, just a short, sort of like time frame. We're you're saying, okay, did you guys find something that you're interested in and and and it? Is it something that motivates you to stick together for this period of time, both for Intrinsic and extrinsic rewards? Right, so the int the the Extreen Secward is the bounty prize at the end and the potential for it to get integrated with sovereign yeah, and the Intrinsic Motivation is meeting and working with Collie EGS that confirm your your talents, right, and give you feedback and you feed on that with each other to make something happen. So I think that that many people forget about. So the intrinsic reward aspect, we talked a lot about this status when we're when we were trying to build ambassador programs. You know what is the what are the intrinsic motivators? Right? So the intrinsic motivators is our social acceptance, social approval, encouragement, curiosity and those sort of things. So you create that by putting all these things together into a pot online and, you know, agitating it and simmering it and not marketing it right. It's so there's just so many hackathons these days. You know, there's there's businesses that run on doing these types of things and all they are is just sort of like circular economies for the people that are actually doing the hackathon and and the people who who participate in them don't really have that sort of like intrinsic motivator. They're just going after the money. We're after a much broader with with sovereign on. There's a much broader narrative and that narrative is the intrinsic motivators of bringing bitcoiners together with the theory and people to do this thing that people have said that they want for a long time and that's defy on Bitcoin. Right. We can't do it at layer at layer one. It's starting to be able to be done at layer two with side chains, with roll ups coming with with drive chains. There's a lot of, you know, stuff that's happening. You know, tap root is is is is being activated. We have a projects. We have projects like Sphinx, Sphinx Chat. You know. Well, we want to do is we want to bring all of those disparate tribes that are looking for, you know, the same grail. Right. So we're also going to be working with block stack, with stacks, with your Knie, you know, he is going to be a judge and it's going to speak as well. You know that many people see us as competitors in the space. We're bringing people over from lightning, from lightning labs, Ryan and and Elizabeth Stark. We want to we want to bring together, you know, all of these different people and projects that are looking at specific aspects of doing defy on on, on Bitcoin, and mix them with the whole with the whole bunch of people that have been doing it for three or four years now on etherium. Right. So it's a it's an attempt to make a you know, what is it? What do you call America? Hearing that it's it's, I don't know, detaching the ideology from a chain in a lot of ways. Yeah, trying to like, Hey, like, we're all in it for the same underlying goals. So let's put let's punch it up, match the technology and see what we could build in a new way and see if it's any different or change or try something. And it's you need people from all sorts of places in order to make those types of serendipitous groups of people to make something happen. Yeah, exactly. So it's just like it's just like throwing it into the pot womb, agitating it a bit with, you know, the tribalism, the argumentation, you know, the convinced that this way is right or that way is right or whatever. But starting that dialog and getting people to talk together is what and build something out of it. Yeah, that's that. The that synergy or the syncretism, right, of throwing ideologies together into one pot and seeing what comes out of it is is the goal and at you know, pairing that with with intrinsic and extrinsive motivators. All Right, I look forward to being part of it. I'm a judge and also be running a panel. Yeah, cool. Have you got your panel? You know title yet? Could you? I do want to share that with us. You've don't I know general concepts and it's certainly going to be around security, but most of my my panels are a bit weird. Like, I don't I don't like having formal...

...questions or or like obvious tracks on what I what I like. Want to talk about in fact more often than that when I run panels. I did this for the we see how you do interviews, you know? Yeah, you know. I did this for the for the for the F dinver privacy panel. Like, I specifically informed all the people involved. I'm not going to give you questions. You're going to have to think on your feet. You were invited to this because you can think on your feet, or you should be able to. That's my my preferable way of like running panels is to bring up interesting conversations and allow people to address them for the first time without rehearsing, and it's more real that way. It always be more real that way. I think that most of the panels are going to be that way. So, so maxilla brand is going to do a socratic circle, probably on on privacy and shield and transactions. So you know from from from Wasabi, and your plats are from room seventy seven, early, a bit coiner. Parallel, the police alumni will also, you know, be do doing something along those lines. So you know, I'm trying to bring in terms of the content for the event, people who think on their feet, with a historical perspective, together with people who have agendas right and watching watching that, you know, watching that happen, I think is going to be an interesting part of the country. Final I've been looking forward to cool. So can I at least talk about like what the what are, what our different tracks are, and tell everybody like kind of get involved, where to go, but what you expects and so forth? Cool. So the all you need to do is go to sovereignth on dot sovereign dot APP, and that's where the innerspace will be happening, starting on June fourth, on Sovereignh on dot sovereign dot APP. Right now is a sign up form where you can sign up to hack or you can sign up to be a judge or you can submit a talk. In the top left hand corner of the site there's an about button which talks about what the prize categories are and gives you the basics about whether or not you can participate in multiple categories or if you need a team or not, which you don't. So you can participate as a individual, as an individual or a team, and we're going to have bounties up in five different prize categories, and those being decentralization and privacy, data science, and finance and integrations, and so this is the essential focus on on of the hack of thon is interoperability and a multichain future, right. So we want people to be able to move in and out of consensus rule sets as frictionally, as frictionlessly as possible. Right now. What that means is essential financial applications, but we also, like I said, are looking for tracks for arbitrary messaging bridges, node deployments and, you know, data applications, integrations with HNS and and NS. So name server, name services, new new generation DNS. We have also a number of partner bounties. So we have a cost network which is putting up an additional hundred thousand in bounties and grants for using their their cloud infrastructure, decentralized cloud infrastructure. Very very interesting. We have API three WHO's putting all of their oracle stuff. If you use air noode, they're going to have a set of bounties for air node for your projects, and then also inans is participating and a number of others. They'll be more between now and when it is that that the bounties go live on on June fourth. Yeah, outstanding and I think that you can get to most of that. For the links of the description and yes, can't, let me know and I'll add them to the description. So if you did catch all that and you're watching on the youtube, you can just look at the description and follow those. Will also put them the description of the eventual imptree podcast that goes out as well. Yeah, cool, all right, that's the fun. It's always a pleasure talking to...

...and catching up and waxing poetic about yeah, that's kind of cool. New Internet. Kind of cool that we have a history together. It's also it's another one of the things that I like about the space is watching friends and colleagues you know developed in the space and where they go and and what they do. I think it's you're also a very unique person in the space and that you're both working for projects and and doing media and podcasts. How many podcasts is it now with the Bitcoin podcast network and hashing it out, and how many hundreds of episodes? Hundreds and hundreds, it's been so many. Yeah, so that's also been an interesting part about being involved in this space is just serve like the observation of the people that you that you know or that you worked with and then watching what they do and then coming back together, and so I'm doing that with sovereign thought as well, reaching out to the people that I respect and and that I've worked with and and bringing them together to, you know, basically make the next step in the space. So it's nice having having access to two friends and colleagues like like yourself, Corey. It's all always a joy to speak with you. Thank you, mom. I appreciate your invited me and I like the kind of thing you're putting forward here. So let's keep it going. All right, cheers,.

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