Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 105 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #104- Niran Babalola and Panvala

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Niran Babaloa joins Corey and Jaye once again to talk about Panvala again and go futher in depth in breakdown how Panvala is empower community buliding. 

Social Media Of Panvala

  • Website: https://panvala.com/
  • Twitter:https://twitter.com/PanvalaHQ
  • Discord: https://discord.com/invite/yZmYZbf
  • Github:https://github.com/Panvala/panvala

Niran Babaloa

  • Twitter: https://twitter.com/niran

Hashing it Out Social Media

  • Twitter: https://twitter.com/HashingItOutPod 

Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Well, everyone, welcome back to Hash to get out this episode one hundred and four, I'm Dr Cory Petty as your host, or by cohost Jay Harrold. Say Hello. Hello, today we're going to talk about Panvala, brought on again. Actually we talked about Panbaala quite a bit in the past. They were sponsor upon point. They've always kind of been a sponsor, considering we're in the Pan Bala Leaguer, whatever that is, today, and to tell us all about it, we have heron again. Welcome back to the show. Thanks for having me. It's good to be back. Yeah, so do the normal thing. Let's start off with like this. You know, Thirtyzero foot few. What is Panbaala? So Panbala, if you're pinball, is a donation matching fund for communities to share. So there's right now, fifty seven and the communities that share the system and we match donations for all the communities. So there's really at a deeper level, there's two ways to think about what's going on here. And crypto terms, like, if you've been around the CRYPTO world, you've probably seen all these different protocols out there with their treasuries and they use their treasury of Tokens or whatever to fund the project that the treasuries attached to. So handball is kind of like that, except it's a treasury that communities can share. We want to share it with as many communities as possible. So instead of spending the treasury on one particular project, we want any community to be able to tap into this treasury and share it with one another, and for a good reason. There's there's a there's an end of the loop at the end of the day. But before I go, before I close that, like, if you're not encryptive, if you don't know what's going on in these crypto treasuries, there's a real world way to think about what pinball it is and that's as a community managed endowment. The best real world example of a community managed endowment is a university endowment that's pretty common in the US. I don't know if it's common elsewhere, but US universities, a lot of them, have endowments and their community of alumni and students work together to decide how to allocate those resources to research, education, student life, like that vibrant college campus, community life that so many people are familiar with is supported by a community manage endowment, and we want any community to be able to tap into that same sort of thing without having to have a very wealthy person gift them tons of resources two hundred years ago. So we want to be able to build it up from scratch and have lots of communities to be able to support themselves in that same sort of way. So the reason we want to share it with as many communities as possible is because of what we're trying to build. What we're trying to build is a network of as many communities as possible that work together to help each other out and to drive resources back into their community. At the end of the day, there is a lot of value in our economy that's created by you and that's created by me, and a lot of that value right now goes to tech MONOPOLIS. For better for worse. Like I don't think there's any need for like a political struggle to change where that value goes, because I think with crypto there's a voluntary way to change where that value goes. I think if we get enough communities working together, we ourselves can redirect that flow of value from tech monopolies back into the budgets of our own communities. All the businesses that are spending their marketing budget with these tech monopolies are doing it because all their customers are there. So if we build up a network of communities where business can businesses can say, well, so many of my customers are there, then they can take the marketing budget that they're spending with tech mono place and put it right back into the budgets of the communities where their customers are. That's how we close that loop. That's how we get to what so many people seem to want, an economy that is driving resources back into their communities, not extracting it. You mentioned economy. It's it's really interesting. I was kind of diving into the tokonomics and and looking at the sort of the three thousand foot view and...

...what it is. There's also an economic totally like a tokenomics incentive to encourage that behavior and ultimately grow the those communities that need and provide funding that can then take funding from these larger organizations. Absolutely so, if you like, if you go around telling people, Hey, we're going to create this organization where thousands of communities work together to drive resources back into our own communities. Like the first question, potential communities are going to have as what can you do for me now, if you like. The reason this kind of organization doesn't exist already is because it's very hard to get it off the ground. What crypto does is shows a pattern for bootstrapping things that is very applicable broadly beyond on technology. So what we do to kickstart Pan Balas economics is the same pattern that bitcoin used to kick start its network. There's when you buy bitcoin and you hold on to it, you know there's going to be twenty one million bitcoin someday and there's not twenty one million today. So you're basically opting into a system that is promised to dilute your holdings and it uses the dilution, the inflation of the system to fund the Operations of the Bitcoin network that we all share together. So if you hold bitcoin. Thank you for doing that. You're kind of a philanthropist in a weird new way. So that's the model that we generalize in Pan Vala to kick start this network of thousands of communities, instead of needing tons of sponsors on day and one. Instead we use the inflation of the system. When you buy Pan and you hold on to it, you know there's going to be a hundred million pans Sunday and there's not a hundred million pan today. So each quarter we inflate the supply up to the maximum of a hundred million and we use that inflation to match donations from communities. From Day One, we've been doing this for over a year. We've been matching the donations at two x last quarter, seven point five x a quartered before that, ten xo quarter before that. It just depends on the market value of the currency at the time. But basically it allows us to kick start this network of communities. So when we bring new communities on board, it's not a question of what can you do for me now? It's like here our resource for you, for you today. Now we just have to complete pleet that loop. We have to bring on more and more communities. To grow that network of thousands of communities. We have to bring on more and more sponsors to close that loop, because at the end of the day it's not all about the inflation of the token funding. Nurses are communities. That's going to taper off over time, but to find real resources, and that real resource is the value we already create in our economy. That just does not go to us. We can move where that value goes by organizing, by bringing lots of communities together and saying hey, businesses, you can, you can give your money to us to spend in our communities and we'll go shop at your business. That's the loop that we're trying to close. Let's snel down a little bit terms of how that, how that actually operates right because, like things of change quite a bit since we were we've been talking about this, I think, since before the original disbursement Pan Vala, to like the some of the, I guess, contributors early on which which we were part hatching it out us, and how like the mechanism you've used to try and get to figure out how to allocate each individual disbursement's like every quarter there's a new chunk of Pan, that gets released and then it's like for the majority of the time. But the work was, how do we get groups of people together to dictate how that gets allocated, how that gets dispersed to the people who would like, who should be using it? There should be contributing to pan and or pain Bala, and one of the main mechanisms, if not the still still the main mechanism for signaling where this money should go and how it should be allocated was using getcoin grants. So you would match basically pan allocations to people who got donations in Pan during getcoin grants, and so that's signal. Basically, like you said, you kill the communities. All right, well, try to convince the people who are going to do an it to you to donating Pan, because it amplifies the amount of ending money they get because based on that amounts the disbursement gets allocated to those people of proportionally, meaning that if I hashing out has done this, our getcoin grant is that you got donated, some of the donations were in pan and then, based on that, we got matching which then drastically amplied the amount of money. Ended up getting way more than a getcoin campus and that seemed to be working, but things are and then we had a Pan Volo leg and that governance around. How this,...

...how these decisions get made, a change. So like kind of talked about like your path as you've learned how to try to do this better and better and as you've how you've on boarded more and more communities and how it shaped kind of this community governance coordination concept or trying to build awesome. So breathe history of Panwala. From day one it's always been about resources going to communities, out out from the inflation and resources going back into the token supply from sponsors. But bootstrapping that, getting act, getting that all together has been a process that is evolved over time because, again, starting it from nothing, cold start very high. So from day one, when we launched this on the etherium, maininet and August of two thousand and nineteen, basically the first approach was to give out grants of Pan two projects in the theorem ecosystem that already had a broad support. So if we're trying to build this network of communities, let's just start in the theorem ecosystem and give Pan to projects that the community cares about. So That's phase one. Phase Two is like, okay, now that there's people, now that their stakeholders, let's bring communities together and organize our steak around each community. So that's when we kicked off the Pan Bala League. That was a little over a year ago now. So it started with five communities and they basically staked pan to get a share of the inflation to match their donations. Once we had that structure in place, we could add more communities to it. So we went from five communities a little over a year ago to fifty two, fifty seven communities today, and we want to continue to plug new communities in. So it's definitely changed over time because, again, like it's just we're in this process of bootstrapping this network of thousands of communities. It's going to continue to change. For instance, donation matching is how we currently allocate the inflation. Donation matching as and how we're always going to allocate the inflation because again, the grand picture at the end of the day is resources going to communities and resources coming into the token supply from sponsors. So having the sponsorship part in there, it's going to be the next part that changes about how we allocate the inflation each quarter. But at the end of the day it's all about bringing communities together to redirect the value that we create back from tech monopolies and to our own communities budgets. So it's a kind of like an incentive that for communities who help drive the system inflation via with, you know, built in to conomics. But by doing that, if they can get more share of the inflation than they're more incentive and fun incentivized to participate longer term, which further drives overall network inflation. Is that? Is that correct? That's inaccurate way to think about it. Basically, the where the we're trying to incentivize cooperation. We think of ourselves at Panvala as cooperation maximalist. So what we subsidize eyes with the inflation of the system. What we incentivize is communities working together. So we want communities to join and there's a subsidy for that. We want communities to help each other out, there is a subsidy for that. We want communities to form smaller groups within Panvala for they can work together with like minded communities, and there's a subsidy for that. So that's what we're doing. At the end of the day, we want to just the the things people already like to do. People already like to work with other people that they kind of like, but actually having a reward for that makes it a lot easier for people say okay, yes, I'm going to do that, I'm going to do that here at this time. So that's really what we do to bootstrap this network of thousands of communities. We give a reward for cooperation between communities. You get a couple examples of that, like like a hard conquered examples of like walk we through like a made up scenario of a community joining Pan Vala and then starting to coordinate in different ways, which then gets subsidies. So I'll give you two examples. The first example is what's happening right now with the regenerative Commons coalition within Panbala. So that's one of the five coalitions within Panvala. I believe there are six communities that are currently a member of that coalition. But basically what happened is that we were bringing communities on board Pan Vala and we're like hey, we want to group together, like my need community, so you can work together or it's totally an opting thing. So we didn't say hey, you belong here and you belong here. It's like a if you want other communities to work with...

...you, go ask them and then we'll help you do that. So the common stack community and the Giveth community, Dandelion collective doing actually fight pandemics. There's a couple other communities in there. Basically they came together and said we want to work together within this coalition. So they started holding these meetings where they could actually share information with each other about what they're doing. So that's one benefit that they got. They knew things that we're going on that they didn't know before. They knew opportunities to get help and receive help, that get help and give help that they didn't know. We're out there. The second thing that we do for the coalitions is actually fun to multi siguallet that the coalition shares. So when they want to do something together, when they have some idea about how they can cooperate, the next step is like, okay, how how we going to get people to contribute from these different communities to this theme we're trying to do together and we want to grease this kids of cooperation. So it's easier than that. Instead of figuring out how contributions are going to be made, it's just there's the multi cyguallet that already has pain in it. Use The pan and that wallet to spend on what you want to do to cooperate. So that's one example of how we helped communities cooperate. The second example is what we do in the Panvala fellows program so the Panvala fellows program is a way that anybody in the Pan Bala community can basically contribute their resources to improve panvala itself or help out other their communities and Panbala. So there's one community member whose skill set is quality assurance, basically, when you building new software, making sure that the software does what support, what it's supposed to do and that users can actually use it. So there's a lot of other communities within Panvala. They're building software and instead of them having to, like a compensate somebody directly for this work, since this Panvalla fellows in one community and the help is happening in other communities. We like cooperation between communities so much that we reward that from Pan Balas inflation. So when you contribute resources to other communities, we want Pan to get to you to encourage that to happen even more. So that's what we use our token supply to do. We want to reward cooperation between communities so more and more of it happens for the end goal that we seek, which is having a network of thousands of communities that work together to drive resources back to their community, because the more communities there are, the more of that value we can redirect back into our own communities with a combined negotiating power of all those communities. So it's kind of like at this stage it seems it's kind of building network effect, because that ultimately builds like brand and notoriety, which is a which is a is a feedback loop that puts back into the what tookn price, you know, whether you want to talk about it or not, which then ultimately drives this network inflation which helps these communities. It seems like it's said like it's trying to take a big tent funding approach to try and solve small tent funding like the the the receding tide of sort of funding for small tent issues and and needs. You know, coming from Canada, you know even though there's there's healthcare, funding is still at a you know, the end dollar amount. So your knee surgery is still cared for, while something a little more niche now suddenly it's it's it's just not it's not a viable it's not viable for people. So I'm that's kind of what I'm hearing. Would that be fair to say? Yeah, the the best examples of the kinds of communities that were trying to drive resources to are the themes you's already seen in Panvala, so like open source projects, charitable causes. But really that's just scratching the surface. Basically, any time people are coming together to do the things they like with the people they like, that's probably a good fit. So arts groups, cultural groups, even just social clubs. People come together to just have fun. Like it's not just about giving necessarily, it's about communities coming together, because the more people come together, the more the easier it is to say hey, instead of giving this money to this tech giant, just get put the money in our budget where we use it together, and you get the attention from the same customers you were looking for in the first place. So that's also the second story, beyond the CRYPTO token value story, which is obviously hard to like dig into this this what we're trying to do isn't to is a token for token to sake. The flow of value that we're trying to grow here is literally communities giving their...

...business to businesses that put money in their budget. So it's actually real world value. It's not just that this token is going to add magically have value. Forget the value of the token. The metrics that I care about our how many communities are in Panvala and how convincing of the case can we make two potential sponsors that you're going to get your money is worth for sponsoring these communities in this way? And the way we make it easy from day one for a sponsors to make that decision is by subsidizing sponsorships as well. So, since we're trying to build up this network of both communities and sponsors, you ready know how we subsidize the communities. We match their donations, but we also subsidize the sponsorships as well. We can use our token supply to do that by saying, Hey, you're going to make this donation to this community. We're going to make sure you have pan in your hands as well. So right now, the if you sponsor through Pan Vala, the sponsorship actually has zero net cost. For every dollar you donate to Panbala communities, you get to hold dollar worth of pantogets. So helps businesses stretch their marketing dollars further by basically just subsidizing that sponsorship. Again, that's not something you can do forever. Right. Eventually we have to close that loop. So we have to decrease the subsidies for sponsorships and have the all those all the all the value flowing from sponsors to communities. But as we kickstart the system, we put subsidies in place for everything we want to happen and then we reduce those as we grow. So it's kind of like a macro marker for intercommunity and individual participation. So as this network grows, if you were to actually watch, you know, address flows, you could, you could actually see, you know, who's really participating, and that being a marker for a sponsor to, you know, participate and they can see where, like how efficiently their dollars or their tokens or whatever being used. So that's part of it, like a lot of the the the a lot of the the reason for sponsors to to make those decisions. It's less about the on chain activity and more about the OPTAIN activity. If you're sponsoring Pan Vala, if you're sponsoring a community and Panvala, it's about like how are you getting the message out for these sponsors? So is on these community calls? Are you saying something about these sponsors? On the websites that these communities have, are you saying something about these sponsors? Basically a traditional pitch for sponsorships. Is What's happening there, just with the subsidies added it. where the participation comes in and where the token holdings come in is in how we govern Panvala itself. So one of the principles and how we govern Pan Vala is that we always want the benefits that are allocated from the system to be based on participation and ownership. And the reason that's important is because, like in most community oriented organizations, there's no concept of ownership, which just people coming together to get things done, for better for worse, and in most crypto sort of systems ownership is kind of all you need. You don't really need participation, you can passively just get yield from holding a certain token. Panvala is neither of those two things. We allocate the benefits of the system based on participation and ownership, with donation matching. That's clear. Like the participation is how much did you bring in donations, and then the ownership is how much does of Panavala does your community own? And that's what we used to determine how much of the inflation each community gets each quarter. So with donation matching, that's already something that we do. When it comes to the sponsorships, that's also when allocating those is also going to be based on participation and ownership. So if you do, if your community does, work to make sure that our sponsors are getting attention, that's the participation part of that program then the ownership part of that program is how much of Panwala does the sponsor or the community own to allocate that portion of the infliction. So we always want to make sure that if you're benefiting from Panwala, it's based on participation and ownership. Yeah, he's try and we were at that, based on my understanding. I like that you're trying to get both those together. Right, because ownership tells you who's who's vested in to persist the system, and then participation shows like how they're leveraging that fest. And so it's so we already talked about the fact that every quarter there's a disbursement of new pan that inflicts the...

Tele Supply and the goal is to figure out how to allocate that disbursement appropriately across those who are both who have ownership and at participated and so freight. Take us, for instance, Hash goot out. We have our our groups as a number of PAN will call it that. This is probably way over, a much way over what actual is. Will call it ten percent. We could probably pull up the spreadsheet later if we want to, but we'll call it ten percent and we stake that amount. So we own and hold ten percent of PAN, or like the current ten percent of the amount total stick. Yes, it's an important distinction. That means that what that does is it says on the next disbursement, on the next inflation that gets this burst of Pan, ten percent of that has the potential to go to the keep the hashing it out community. And so that means that. And so how do we how do we get how do we maximize that potential? We do is we get people to donate, to Hash it out, gcoin grants or some other, all the all the approved forms of donation for Panabala, and based on that number, you can allocate a total of up to ten percent to that right and that kind of dictates what you're saying. Like the matching number like that, the maxine, the matching ratio is like you know, you you had this this bottle, this potential bottle of donations that the pen balls are going to give you and, through rolling your community to donate to you, with as a signaling mechanism, you saying we're going to match you up to this amount. As I so you have like kind of like two separate finals. The first one is ownership, which is figure out what communities have weighted steak in the in the game, and the next one is how much we give you. Is based on how much you can row your community to actually do something. And the metrics to using, and I think this is what is probably going to end up changing over time and becoming more dynamic and interesting, is how do we then distribute to that community amongst the people who participated? What are our metrics are participation that were actually rewarding, whether it be like community to community participation, matching, donations and all kinds of things. What I'm curious about. Sorry. First off, is that a good description of what's going on? Perfect? Okay, great, I'm some. I still get this, though. What I but I'm curious about is, as we start to bring in sponsors into this, for your subsidies, are making them have ownership, which hopefully means that they start to participate as well, because they can then get matching and by by by participating or get funded additionally by participating. But like how? What motivates them to do it in the first place, like what makes them think they're going to get value out of sponsoring something other than getting their name said in meet up? So it's really just US demonstrating the value of that over time. So basically building up an inventory of how sponsors benefit from their sponsorship and pitching that to those potential sponsors and having them say, Hey, that sounds valuable to me. If we don't, if we fail it doing that, then they'll be like this does not seem valuable to me. But if we succeeded doing that, then they'll be like, okay, this makes sense. I'm going to get the attention that I need to be able to drive more business and then I'm also going to get subsidies from Panvala that let my marketing budgets stretch further. So we just as a community, we have to make that case as best we can and it's the obviously not a guarantee. We just have to make sure that when we're making that case that it's clear. These are the benefits that you get from being a sponsor. This is where your brand shows up, this is where your messaging shows up, whether it's on a website, whether it's in a podcast, whether it's during a call that the community has. We just want to make sure that we are demonstrating that value to sponsors as best we can because, again, we have to outcompete the value proposition of giving your marketing but it to a tech nant and that's a hard thing to do. But that's something that we're going to succeed a doing because we're going to bring as many communities together as possible and combined we're going to be able to drive so much value to our sponsors over time. has there been any thought around in terms of sponsorship, like what if there was a an AMM and portion of few he's extracted from an AMM is redirected to Vela? Because it sounds like what's being trying to be solved here is the bridging of maybe more wider incentives or incentives that that individual organizations would selfishly need and...

...trying to tie that to a, you know, more narrow social incentives that a you know, shared group of people are trying to solve within their community. It is often that's a very hard problem to do that. So it's sponsorship makes sense. Is like a sponsorship network? Is there? Is there any other sort of additional forms being looked at, like AMM FE extraction, for example? So currently know, but we're totally open to that sort of thing. It's really the communities that benefit from Panvala that determine, like how we do this thing over time. So there's a lot of systems on chain that have fees that could flow to communities if you wanted them to. So if there's a potential to do that in a way that fits in with Panbala, then we want to do it. It just hasn't been at the top of the list of things that were trying to seek out, because the basically the simplest case that gets people to under stand what Panvala is. It's showing people, Hey, it's like traditional methods of funding communities, but using the using cryptocurrency to bootstrap this network effect between those thousands of communities. There's crypto value that we can drive into there. But the story gets more complicated if we prioritize driving crypto value into their so we want to show how normal value flows can work to be coordinated by the system well, so we can benefit the existing communities in Panvala, which are very cryptoheavy, but also so the story is very clear for how we branch out from crypto communities because, again, it's supposed to be where all the businesses customers are. Not all the businesses customers are in crypto world. There's a lot of normal communities out there. We want them to be able to benefit from Pan Vala. We want to be able to drive more value to them and we want to be able to improve the return on investment for sponsors that are sponsoring this thing. They need to be able to broaden the reach of customers that they can reach this through this thing. So that's that's why the crypto value isn't the focus. But if somebody wanted to do the work to connect those pieces, we would say yes, interesting, lay enough. We're kind of playing around building something like that at the Bitcoin podcast that work as a way to like bring in the community to how the podcast fix money. It's like kind of had to automaticfy have that's weird down structure of paying people out according to their contribution. But like, I'm shit at this because, a as someone that I would like to market, I have a chunk of money. I'm like how, man, how do I use this right? And what's what? What you're seeing, at least that you look at get coin grants as as as an example, is I throw my chunk of money into a pool and allow it a massive community of donations, like a massive participation of donations to various projects ecosystem dictate how that money gets distributed. So it's like I have I I relinquish my burden of doing the research or figuring out how to best allocate money and I help people who normally wouldn't be helped in a lot of ways based on a larger group actually donating as well. And it's a similar type situation for Panphala, where the metric that dictates how my money gets distributed is mainly focused on how you can evaluate other people helping each other, kind of like participation is is looking at coordination and and donations, and that's how you're using those, isn't? Like those are the types of metricsture using to dictate how money floats. So I'm trying to like math that kind of getcoin picture of like I'm an advertiser, I'm a company that wants to advertise. I'm just going to put up a lump sum of money and allow this community, massive like groups of communities, to dictate how it gets allocated, and the metrics they use is in line with the things that I think are important and what the Metricsu're using are fully focused on good collaboration and coordination of groups of people, which I think as opposed to like this traditional flow of money that we have in the Internet today, which is I'm an advertiser. I go to the tight tech companies and ask them, like this is my demographic sell them...

...to me, and I have very strong I have a very strong confidence that my I'm going to reach the people who I think are good, but the value flow doesn't go back to the people in any way, shape or former. GOES TO TECH companies. I like, I'm trying to see this as a way to fix that loop where the people who are actually doing the participation, creating the value, are being rewarded through their participation and you still have kind of this emergent ability of people who would like to reach their potential customers, reaching them effectively but not in like a gross, like value extraction way. Absolutely. So that question that you illustrated the the business asking like this is my demographic? Sell them to me. At the end of the day, that's the same question that we're trying to help answer. So as we grow, we want to be able to say to businesses are like, this is my demographic, sell them to me. We want to be able to reach out to our communities and say, Hey, this business is looking for this kind of customer, like what what resources are there in our communities to drive that customer towards them. So again, that's not necessarily like traditional advertisement because again, that's governed by the communities themselves. Whatever way we're helping companies get customers in the door has to be something that they're actually comfortable doing. But that is what we're trying to answer. We're trying to bring all these communities together. So instead of Google answering that question, it's like, Oh, this is my demographic, sell them to me. Google's like done. We want the communities themselves to be able to say, Oh, this is your demographic, you want those to be sold to you. Done. Just give that money and put it in the budget of our communities rather than putting it with tech monopolice. So that's that's definitely what we're trying to do. So if the communities themselves are, say, making content, let's say, and it's a collective effort to make content, then there regardless of what that content is it because it really doesn't necessarily matter, because each community is going to speak to a different audience. So they put out their content that speaks to whatever audiences they spend a little time to either which draws more people into their community, which, you know, maybe draws more people into their discord, which builds their community more. Some of that funding is allocated to the creation of content. Ideally a lot more of that funding is driven towards the community needs and participation within that. That discord and then the and then, I guess over time there would be this sort of a bunch of networks of communicative communities that would, you know, maybe at a single time, would have the same advertiser within their that's content regard across communities and that is a representation of where the value was coming from any given point, and that's kind of how I'm understanding it. That's accurate, with a caveat that. Like in Panvalo, when it comes to like rewarding work, we try to push that down to individual communities as much as possible. Like if we're trying to get thousands of communities to work together, they're getting thousands of communities degree on anything is like the hardest job ever. So the way to solve thats just by pushing those decisions down as much as possible. So rather than it being like a Panbala thing where it's like hey, this person should do this work to get this piece of content created so that this advertiger is happy whatever, it's really like setting rules at the Pan Bala level saying if you do this, then you get this, and that's what we reach consensus on as a network of communities. And then it's just a community saying, Hey, we produce this and then we did this value for this sponsor, like we put during our meeting, we put this in front of them on our blog, we did this, and then you tally up the points according to whatever rules we agreed on and allocate it that. So, yes, that's accurate, with the caveat that were very much a kind of rule based governance thing, because we have to get tons of communities to agree, which is the hardest thing in the world. I think it sounds like it's still governance minimize, though to some degree, because it's is it really? All it's deciding is like, okay, how does the POW? Are we tweaking the coordination incentive...

...percentage or whatever? And so it's like, okay, well, you know, it's levered enough to affect the entire space without being overly lovered in in such a way that that changes that did at the dynamic mix in such a way that just proportionately negatively affects communities. Exactly that. And for a concrete example of how we actually do that, like think of it really as a giant spreadsheet that shows the points that each community's earning and that shows the share of the inflation that they're going to get at the end of the quarter, because that's literally what it is. We pulled data from all sorts of different places. We shove it into a spreadsheet. The spreadsheet has like rules in it that the community can see and understand and that they can make suggestions of how to change it if they're not comfortable with it. And we're basically governing a spreadsheet, and that spreadsheet, at the end of the day, says this community gets this, this community gets that. So yes, that's what we do. We want to make sure that communities are opting into participation in the way that they want. That basically we're not saying you have to do this community. It's more like saying, if you do this community, then you get these points that give you this portion of the inflation. So that's that's how we operate that in practice. I like that. That's just gross you're going to have. You're going to come to a point where there's going to be a coordination complexity that that like becomes up burden for people and then like getting them to participate and do that Tali becomes more difficult as well. It's where you're like you're spending a good portion of your time trying to figure out how things work and not actually doing saying how is how are you trying to combat that? As as as the number of communities grows and the kind of vying for the governance of that spreadsheet gross gross with it. So there's two ways that we're trying to sell that. One is by making trying to come up with the fairest rules possible so as it grows there's less like like so far there have yeah, let's tension. There hasn't been battles over the rules in the spreatcheet. That's not a thing that we've had so far. It's definitely going to happen at some point but like, the more thought we can put in up front about like how to actually be fair, then when that happens it'll be easier to resolve. The second thing is by trying to make sure that there are narrower ways to participate in Panbala through organizing people so like in most most organizations have different kinds of subunits and things like that, and it's not necessarily, not necessarily a hierarchy, but basically making sure that when a community plugs in. They have their set of peers with their context, so they can reason about the portion of Panbala that they're dealing with, so they don't necessarily have to fit the whole thing in their head. And then if there's a particular coalition, a particular group that's like Hey, our communities aren't really getting a fair deal in this set of rules, then that's much easier to grapple with than one community trying to fit the whole world into their head. Try just that's our approach for kind of narrowing what people have to deal with to reduce conflict over time. Basically organized people into smaller groups over time. I'm wondering if maybe there's some need for so some visual aids in that regard, because I think when I was looking into this my I worked, I work differently. I kind of need to understand the whole picture before I can understand the small picture and, you know, talk it out kind of like work through it and visualize it and then once I visualize it, like okay, this is what this relates to me. I'm wondering if maybe one of the ways to lower that the barrier is kind of visual queues for these and that's not necessarily an easy thing because this is a very different funding mechanism that is kind of its own thing, as far as I can tell, in in the in the etherium and into a crypto space. But that could reduce burden over time as more and more communities on board, different sets of people and different sets of ever, you know diversity will have different forms of of understanding what's going on. But I mean that that too is also hard problem because it's, you know, it's priority right, like what's priority to work on and and s sponsorships is a is a clear like win...

...for network growth. So I can I can respect that. There's this, you know that there's a there's me for one thing or not, but I but I think that in terms of complexity, I think a lot of that can be could probably be reduced from yeah, I definitely appreciate that feedback. Like my my owne of my weaknesses is like providing visual AIDS. I'm very much like a text thinker. So then I get my words and I'm like Hey, we're doing this thing, it's all written down right, and then everybody's like I don't understand and like I really need some visuals for this, but I just don't think in that way. So, like we need more visuals. You're one hundred percent right and we're going to fix it and I would, over the time period, too happy to help me. You certainly had a conversation in terms of, like the difference between trying to I say, for instance, like a community makes money by by both having ownership at participation and put there's a balance there in a lot of ways. If you have a lot of ownership but no participation, then you're not going to get a lot of like additional funding because no one's doing anything. It's so like, but like. So, as someone who would like to help a community out, they have kind of two choices and at least in like an under under some of the mechanisms they currently have. They can either steak in that community to increase the proportional pan that staked and across across the entire ecosystem, or they can donate using pan which then adds on the participation style of like, and then that gets matched to increase the total amount of donations. But that's like, if one of those things is skewed, say there's no, there's no stake in the network and they get a tremendous amount of donations, then the matching isn't that high because they're not getting a very large allocation of the of the of the disbursement based on how much they're staking. But so, but if they have a bunch of steak, they're going to get anything. I canna get out of large allocation either, because no one did anything. And so that visualization of helping people make that decision between where we're currently at and what the potential effect of an additional steak or donation being made drastically helps someone trying to help a community out because, like, it's not easy, not me talking it out loud right now. It helps you get a general, like general understanding of like how this money flows and in the effects of the mechanisms you have at your disposal. But when you're in and in the process of trying to make that decision, you're not having a podcast talking about it with the founder. You have to try and do that and figure out these they the all these cogs and they thin together easily. So I think you're right. We mean Arot of had this conversation before. Like these small little things that help people into the the understand how these things are happening and how their contribution makes difference based on what they do. Are things that like will just get worked on over time as the as you continue with increase the wheels and see what's actually working. Yeah, so one thing that we put together at last quarter was better visuals for that exact thing. So if you go to panvalacom hashing it out with all lowercase dashes instead of the spaces, I think I have it pulled up. What's it's a description. So that's good. Yeah, so kind of simplifies the whole ownership and participation story. You just have a progress bar that shows you like, in terms of staking, have you staked enough? And Hashing it out is maxed out. They definitely staked enough. So we have, like I've been, I've been a large staker for a long time, with a lot, not a lot, of what's the word for participation, because I'm wasting. Yeah, I think you could. So let's see. extreame see. So the goal is to get communities to know, like of those two things, participation in ownership, where do they stand? What do they need? So if you're matching progress bars maxed out, you have the highest matching multiplier you can currently own, currently earn, then just bring in more donation. They don't have to worry about the stake and you got plenty. But there are other communities WHO's matching multiplier isn't very like their progress bars towards the short end and for them it's like, okay, you need to your community needs to own more of Pan Vala to be able to maximize their benefits from it. So the whole story about how we allocate things. We try to simplify it down into this progress bar. That's our current approach. But again, it doesn't get the whole story across about like what Painvala is, what the structure is, but it does look community see like where do we stand? So we like we're still taking in feedback on this approach for letting communities know where they stand, but we also have a lot of work to do to make sure people can fit the whole concept of what Panvala, this sort of organization is and like...

...what what it looks like. I didn't see this. I think this this goes a long way to like, you know, make her kind of standardize the collateralization ratio, kind of mechanic and I think that intuitive UX is really applied here and I think that does does a long way to require, you know, minimize that requirement to sort of, you know, think about it and understand it. I didn't. I didn't actually see this awesome yeah, Marco and of our community, community members put this together and I think it did great job and simplify mine what I was trying to get across before. The last version of it was complicated. I'm waving to the complication stuff. So, like I it's having someone I can to get a little more easily. Intuitive is out of the out of my range saying here. You had a few I think you had a few things that you wanted to show as well. Your poplase on you're more blok to. Yeah, so as we went through I was like I should I just like share my screen now or what? But basically I think we went through most of the things that I wanted to get through visually. It was really just that matching progress bar that you share. That's the most important visual Abe that I have. But the other visual a that I have just to make sure that people know exactly what we're trying to do here. I'll share my screen on this one. All right. So we're talking at the beginning about how, when you when you think about what the token is doing in this model, it's really kicks starting something again. We're doing the BITCOIN model where we subsidized communities the same way that bitcoin subsidizes a security. So in Bitcoin, eventually it's not going to run on inflation anymore. It's going to run on transaction fees. That's the story. And Man Bala, eventually it's not going to run on inflation anymore. It's going to run on something else. And to get an idea of what that story is, over time the matching multipliers available from pinballs inflation are going to decrease. In bitcoin it's had healthy inflation subsidies for over a decade. We think the same thing could apply to this sort of system. So if you have like a decade or two of good donation matching from the inflation, that's pretty great, but over time we have to ramp up what the perpetual source of value for our communities is, and that's what that corporate sponsorship strategy is. We think that if we bring together enough communities to work together, the the they become stronger the more the communities are that are working together, the the the case for sponsoring Panbala as a whole get stronger the more of that business as customers are part of Panbala. So we don't just want to be five communities that we started with or fifty seven communities that we are today. We want to be thousands of communities working together to be able to drive more value into our communities because even though those that matching from inflation is available today, we need to build up that muscle to be ready for the future when most of the value going to the communities is coming from sponsorships and Pan Bala's model. The sponsorships eventually go back into the token supply and that's what completes the loop. As we start these sponsorships and we're subsidizing them effectively, it's less about the driving the sponsorships back into the token supply. It's more about letting the sponsors keep some of the PAN that they're using, that they're buying from communities as they support them, and then ramping that down. So as we ramp that down, some of the pain they get to keep and some of the pan goes back into the into the token supplay and then, when we're at equilibrium, when we're no longer subsidizing the sponsorships, sponsors are giving US dollars to a community, they're getting pan back and they're putting the pan back into pan baals token supply. To complete that look interesting, curious, it like it's a I mean, if I want to try it, imagine that. I guess leave it even like the happy path of this blowing up. What I'm doing as an advertiser or a corporate sponsor is I'm trying to find a group of people that are doing things that I think are relevant to whatever my product or services. That's that's the whole point of marketing in a lot of ways, is to get what you're trying to sell in front of the people who you think are most likely going to like what you're doing. And when you're looking at your metric for what you're kind of presenting to advertisers is this is a group of x people doing why, and our...

...metric is like trying to look at quality, cortation and contribution among those communities are around the concept of why. Right now, like cool, I like that. That's I think that's the demographic I'm looking for all inject money into that and that injection of money happens to be part of this kind of token flow of kind of how those people actually get end up getting paid. So they're like people are potentially well by just doing what's useful to that community and coordinating with others are on a given topic and trying to push what's quote unquote, good, they're going to passively get funded by the larger organization that wants to enable that type of activity. And exactly that and really the traditional type of corporate sponsorships are kind of the easiest way to drive marketing dollars back into communities, right, but that's not necessarily the end of the story. So we start with the easiest thing to do, which is like traditional sponsorship type things, the same kind of thing you see on a conference or on some sort of event, like just that kind of sponsorship. But as we ramp up, as we grow, like there's other kinds of marketing spending that isn't captured in that style of sponsorship. So let's say the grand future where Pan Vala is like every every community you've ever heard of as part of Pan Vala and they want to drive as much val you into their own budgets as possible. Then any kind of marketing spend you want to be able to do on a community oriented basis. Maybe you need a community oriented advertising work, maybe you need a community oriented loyalty points for shopping in different businesses. Whatever kind of marketing spend is out there, there's a community oriented way to get it done. That isn't a tech monopoly way to get it done. And when you change the the the that value already exists. It's not creating new value in our economy. It's not like we're trying to build some sort of factory that's going to pump something out, some sort of protocol that's creating some sort of new value. That's not what we're trying to do. Trying to redirect that existing value in our economy. There's tons of it. We can redirect it back into the budgets of our own communities by organizing, by working together. There has to be tons of US working together to get this done. But if we succeed in doing that, totally possible. It's right. It's right there, like the value is there. We create it. It's like, if we work together we can get it back to us. I've started to see a lot like I've started to see marketing models that are not reliant on on, you know, data specifically, and I think that's shows that marketers are trying to actually start to look at other ways to market because, you know, if you're a small brand, a smaller brand, I actually don't think you should use you know, you can use very targeted ads. They work, but I actually don't think you should go like go big, unless you're, say, a direct consumer kind of thing, because, you know, at the end of the day it's about conversions or it's about brand growth and it's a lot easier to grow your brand within a side, within a smaller immunity, over a longer period of time than it is to do that in, you know, in a big area where there's a we're just competing for for ad space with a bunch of bigger brands. It's just dollars wasted and I think a lot of marketers are start, are really starting to think about other ways to approach this that are more ethical, and I think this there is and I think ethical marketing is is one of the things that Kryptos really great at, and so I really love how how like and Val is really trying to, you know, marry those, those two two things will here is an ethical form of marketing, while at the same time, here is a way to support directly support a bunch of in need communities and and I think this is sort of the right time for that. So I'm like, I think the the marketing thing makes a lot of sense. I'm now starting to think like how, you know, how would I how would I use that my own marketing kind of thing? How? We want all of your ideas there, because, again, you're kind of a potential customer, so we want your feedback. But also like beyond, like there like in terms of options from marketing today, like putting your brand, putting your product in front of customers, like that's what most people are doing. But just think about like what we're trying to build is literally putting your marketing budget...

...into the budgets of the communities your customers are in. And that's beyond just like an impression for impression. You're going to get way more value from literally funding the stuff your community likes then you're going to get from just paying to get in front of them. It's like, Oh, I didn't want to see your brand, but it's in front of me now. Okay, I guess maybe I'll buy from you. It's it's literally the mentality of the ultra rich in a lot of ways, right, like w often not, there's this there's this, like from the way I understand how ultra rich people spend their money. As you get to a certain threshold where you have influence and you enable the world you want to exist by paying for it, do you can? You pay to people who were doing the things that you want to exist, and this is somewhat of a more fine grain way of doing like enabled, like enablement, marketing, like an otherways, like I want this thing, like I like this concept I had and I would like it to exist. More here's a bunch of ways in which I can enable the communities who were doing those things and, in the process, probably joined them because, like, more often than not, a a company or product or service or group who are selling, who's selling things, is also a part of that community. So you have like you you want to bolster actions in that community to get things done, and that's usually by enabling the people who can't afford to do things. And then, like, by then, the process of doing that. Like you, they're going to be exposed to whatever you're trying to market and and it's like he's, like you said, Jay, like a more ethical way of getting yourself in front of the people who you think care about what you're doing, while also like rising the tide and enabling as many people as possible to actually do things, as opposed to just like see you. Direct brand engagement is network effect. Network effect is brand growth on both sides, community and the brand itself. Like it's it's not a it's a much more intuitive thing than it is direct sort of numbers, and sometimes it can be hard for tech companies, depending on, you know, who's WHO's allocating funds, to really to really under understand that. But you know, when when you get to a point when it when you're forced to understand it, like intuitive mechanisms, your marketing department is becomes very key and I think there's a lot of cryptograph companies that are that are really have, you know, realize this over the last year and you know, I think. I think finding ways that aren't specifically numbers driven can have a lot of outside outsized longer term return on on initial investment. It's just it doesn't necessarily show up in the numbers right away, and I think that's that's a hard thing for some smaller companies to get their head around and like, well, why am I spending money here while Google gives me numbers over here? It's like, well, because it's, it's, it's, you know, it's beyond the numbers and the and if you compare it in over time and all the efforts you've done, you'll be able to see that. So how you measure brand growth is very much a sum of all actions and then an estimation of potential or notional, you know, actions or value on top of those individual people and then you kind of have a general size in your head. Absolutely and like it. To begin with, it's very much that model that you're describing where it's like hey, you have to understand, beyond the numbers, the value that you're getting from this thing. But as we ramp up and as we grow, like we want to be able to provide more and more numbers. So, like it's not necessarily a pie in the sky. You're definitely getting value for this marketing spend. Like we want to be able to show the dollars and sense just as well as any other way that they're spending their marketing budget. It's just that it's a as as we grow, we layer on more and more. We start with the easiest thing to do and then prove the value that we provide from there. All right, so I can part start to wrap from here. Once again, I'm always interested in this. I'm a I'm quite passionate about like building better community relationships and fixing that kind of economic cycle of how people spend their money to get attention and like how value flows within a community and around the communities to interact with these these types of things, I think, are what crypto was made for and a lot of ways as trying to facilitate better relationships across people. So...

...for those who would like to try and experiment with you, how do they get started? What do they do? Where do they go? So there's a couple ways to be a part of Panbala. One is there's a donation mansion around starting today. I believe today's June sixteen, if you're watching this later, but basically there's donations running from June sixteen to July first. If you donate to one of the Panbala Leagues. Fifty seven communities using the pan token. They get at extra matching from pan balls inflation. There's a lot of communeties that are collecting donations on Gitcoin in concert with their donation matching around there's also some donation some communities with pages on give eth, which is another donation matching platform. Basically, anywhere people are collecting donations, if they're in Pan Vala and they collect those donations and pan it accounts for matching. So donate with Pan. That's the best way to get involved right now. If you're part of a community, any kind of community that is doing the thing that they like with the people they like. We want to share Panvala with you. That's open source projects, it's charitable things, but it's beyond that, also like parts groups, cultural groups, social clubs, just people having fun. It doesn't have to be for good necessarily, but a lot of the things are for good. We want to share Panbaala with you, so join Pan Vala. There's links at Panbalacom to make that happen. Bring other communities with you, because, again, we're cooperation maximalists. We want to help communities work together get more help and value from each other, as well as earning more from panbal itself. Then, on the sponsorship side, if you're part of a community that already brings in sponsorships, if you bring those sponsors to Pan Vala, we can help their marketing dollars stretch further by putting pain in their hands. We want to subsidize those sponsorships, just like we subsidize the communities, and you can bring new sponsors to Pan Vala. If you have a company in mind that would be a good sponsor for Pan Vala, we want to subsidize that. I again, currently, sponsorships and Panvala have zero net cost. For every dollar they spend in donations, they get a dollar worth of PAN that they get to hold. That doesn't last forever, but that's how we're kickstarting the system. So we want to bring on as many sponsors as possible to show people what we're building, this network of thousands of communities working together to bring in more resources using the value they already create, the value of just like being eyeballs for tech monopolies to sell. They didn't necessarily create that value. The value is from you and we can redirect that flow of value back into our own communities and our own communities. We get to do the things we like with the people we like. We don't have to do winner takes out politics. We don't have to optimize the quarterly earnings reports. We can focus on what we like to do, and that's what gets crowded out of our economy by powerful economic tools like national currencies and corporate equity. Communities don't have that kind of tool. Pan Vala is that kind of tool. We want to be able to elevate community life across the board by using the new kinds of economic tools that cryptocurrency and lets us do. We want to bring together as many communities as possible and, read direct the flow of value back into our own communities. So we want you to be a part of it and I think it's going to be a pretty big deal. So looking forward to seeing the chapter that each and every one of you rights in the story. Well, I started looking into this by reading the the the story and I think it's wonderful. Thank you much, thanks for all the show and we'll see you up all right. Thanks for having me.

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