Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 65 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #65 – Cypher Core – Jay Jie and Ken Trueba

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode features Jay and Ken from Cypher Core. Cypher Core offers a staking as a service platform for Proof of Stake protocols. Primarily focused on Cosmos network, we talk with them about their experience implementing their system, incentive models involved with staking services, and the overall Cosmos community.

Links:
– decentralization blog
– cyphercore.io
– Ken’s Twitter
– Jay’s Twitter

Now injuy kindwork welcome to hashing it out poast forRetouk to the ATTECH intovators beind, blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds figure at Wy and how peoplefuilled this technology, the problems they face, alon the way I'm listeningand learn from the best in the business. You can join their wrecks, OM, BECKTA, sure everybody pashing itout on your host Darkkori, Petty Calin, as the other hosts, say hello or ready,Callin Lover, Buto, Callhin, yeah, simp, effective, effective. Today's episodewe're going to talk to cipher cor. We have kin and J with us, Um mshall startby introducing yourcells and letting US know how you got into the Space J. UFirst Yeah! So my name's Jay by day am theCITA ADS, we're a block chain platform. Oh sorry, we're a education system onblouching and by Nigh I I'm the founder ncto as Evercor so m. A CIPRO CORT is astaking service provided found twenty seventeen initiof alley, starting outit was just Yonham and later on. We brought on art as they lead death andJason as the addvisor and lean and Andy as writers. By the way we have detailedindividual bion, our site, so FA FRA to check it out. So we sort of got intothis proof of stake. AOT Edition Service, UM business. After a meeting Ihad it with Chingo. She was the head of communications at a Costos at the time,so we sort of shared insits regarding costmos ambitions, and you knowtechnical details from there. We decided to join their test nap andultimately, we realized how huge Stakeng was set out to be withpotential usecases such as you know, Defa, etcr, etcetera, and then we participated in game ofstakes. It's you know, basically an incentivized, a battle of notes and wewere awarded with some tokens for a solid performance. I guess- and overtime we just opened up our statein service to more platforms such as wingChang, Arisna Leno Network, and here we are today rn. What about your Bi guys? My name is Ken Um. I startedout well on the CO as a for I started in the Blockchan Pace, iwouldsay around two thousand and sixteen just more. So, as a writer, I was anenthusiast throughout like my high school days, but that was like twothousand and twelve two thousand and thirteen as a kid. You know you're notreally going to take much too seriously. So you know I was able to kind o likedive in and out of things, but then really gatn picked it up in twothousand and sixteen as like, just doing little, writing blogs and tEnglish translation for Cork chains, White Paper Um, which was pretty coolyou. So I was a good experience initially after that I was contacted byj about Cicrocour Um and then we kindof just picked up things from there andyou know: That's Kindof the back story. As far as like how I got involved withwatching space and whatnot, it's Kinda interesting, 'cause t it seems asthough most of the saking service services, as they exist now, or stakingplatforms or blocchain systems that requires staking ar more, liketraditional pvft staking mechanisms Um and L e. What what is what is the like?The business case for running staking services for these type of networks? M Yeah M. I have this analogy I reallylike, but you know some don't so it's pretty similar to you. You know banks,you put your money in. You know: Banks nd Y, you are an interest and then it'sthe same thing with staking. You know you put your Um coins in our hands, but not notquite ecause. We don't actually have access to your coins, but you sort ofjust bond your coins with us and you are an interest and it it Um. So aright now I think, you're looking at about ten percent staking returnpercentage in cosmos. Maybe it Oul have be more than that. So you know it'sdefinitely a lot higher than you know what bank gaves you so there's.Definitely you know intensive in that Bou for you guys, like Hao, Al Patty,ill Py, I'll Divou, that out how o you decide how to do it h, whats theinfrastructure light for providing these types of services. Yes, soinfrostructure, so we design our...

...infrastructure based on. You know manydifferent ways. You can attack a note. So there are a number of Ti ways: Youcan do it Um with the most obvious. One being you know, dedos attacks so tendement being entirely deterministic,Constanceis potical. It allows a note to be targeted for dedosattacks, wherethe notes IPS and its rest, API port becomes vulnerable. So what typicallyhappens net is that the communication between nodes can be halted and itultimately leads to blocks not being committed. So temiticay thires, the very problem mmany of thuse Y UNOMANIOFUS Costmos avalitators implements a what we callcentury note architecture, it's esentually thanking for structuredesign for didos attach mitigation, so the whol idea is that while you haveyour Valilye note or notes in a data center, you also deploy multipledistributed notes. You know the sanction notes in a cloud environment.So if you're Vatidator no did get attacked, your sential notes could beyou know quickly. Set up and integrated into the transaction flow is sort ofjust diverges, um the transactions going into the validator note or notes.So not only does this help with scaling, it also makes makes it harder to makean an impact on the validator node, and on top of that, we also imprementedtechniques that prevent keys from being compromised to help secure the trustedlinks between notes and Um Lat on the least Um. You knowtechniques that help us stay on top of the security patches intendermen aswell as Incostnos as Dcy, so yeah, that's pretty much it wht. What I guess worries me I thatmakes a lot yes in terms of yeah Um, a a kind of a staking system that doesn'thave a tremendous amount of stakers in the network, as as the network growsand the number of participants grow. Tha th a number of valitators doesn'treally grow, but so what happened? Because you have the same amount ofvalidators just getting bonded too more and more offering similar to what yourservice you. You know what you're absolutely right,so you know I thought we couldhave talke about you know you kno how profitable or sustainablethis staking business really is right. So Um yeah, you know you're absolutelyright there. So if you look at cosmels right right now, you're looking atabout thirty five, thirty four vadidators that are charging acommission of ten percent and the current price of Adam is, I believe,three dollars and eleven ecents or something like that, and the stateingreturm percentage for now per year is around ten percent. So imagine you havea small team like two developers Y uux person, onemarketing prerpison and one operation person. Such a team needs at least the three hundred K in arevenue por year. That's extremely loin the bay, but you know justhypthetically speaking right, so it thirty hundred K REMENU per year thattranslates to roughly thirty million dollars worth of Adan dedicated to yourvadidator. So in Tokens, that's roughly, I believe, m nine point: six MailingAdams, if you run it down, so if you look at a weigts distributionin occurrence, avatidator set and cosmos, only the top four vadidatorsactually meet the minimal requirement. Four on of the hundred okay m. So ofcourse this just estimate in a gestimate, not science and the higher the price I mean thehigher the token prize. Then more provate boy, its going to be for thevaliteaders o. You can simply just raise your. Youknow, commission rate, but you know just for the sake of this discussion.Let's say you Rase Your Commission Ra from ten percent to twenty percent, andwe are sticking to the three hundred k revenue estimate and the ten percentstaking return percentage. You would need roughly four point: eight millionAdams staked to your vaditator that unfortunately, only includes top NIvalidators at the current token price, not even the tent Um, so you know and finally, to make soto make half of the hundred validators profitable. In this particular scenario,you would need the price of Adam to be...

...twenty dollars, while charging attwenty percent commission. That's a lot a lot higher than what weare seeingtoday. So you know so by now, you probably already figured out that we aCypher Cor currently ranked at number seventy. We would be losing moneyrunning the business if we had no other reenue streams. So it's you know, it'sdefinitely not an easy business um getting getting the commissioneverywords froner note alone is definitely not enough to cover youroperational cost. No. I was thinking about that Anten, N and ot. When I lookat even other Sak or is it you think it'sgoing to be better for staking systems like that two point, o where you have alot more stakers in the more I'd say individualized. I think it depends. Just you know, giveyou an example: Wangchain thergatexy cons mechanism, it'sentirely rendoized, maybe not entirely, but you know much better, not batter.You know sorry just different prum portical. So in Winchan you know, sayyou have vaditators wether the an e vely to b a holding a thousand coins and the B Holding Hundred K coinsover Um long term. These two guys will be getting roughly the same amount ofrewards or return Um, because the PORTICA is ren the lifeso um the possibility of you getting selected as tha block producer, as youknow, roughie the same long term for anybody but incostnos you know in adeterministic cause, as is potocal like a tendantment. You do have that. Youknow the rich tends to get richer. That problem and you know we as a smallerfish in the sea. We definitely suffer from that. You know we do a lot of things. Youknow we do a publication. We do um site projects in open source. What I callcommunity projects Um to you know too generally, you know whether it's cloudor Kn w just to generally revenue- and we also do you know, contracted works. You knowdevelopment and we do ponsulting too you, you ow. You definitely have tojust to explore and Um Generat other revenues treams.Otherwise I think a lot of these you know smaller guys. Um would be out ofbusiness soon. You know, and by theway you know, the bigger guys such as cornbase is coming in too. So you know the yeah exchanges yeah, so yeah, it's it'sSUC, tough brought up to me recently. I don't know much about Tenerments UH SLA. Sorry, now s staking mechanism I was told, was actually kind ofstruckingly similar to what we're developing a at the company I werk forM. Oh yeah yeah. We independently have a lot of similarities, they're not the same, but one thing we're trying to avoid as theidea of like staking hyperan inflation of people just being able to likeconstantly accumulate yeah yeah. Tell me a little more about like what'sgoing on with the tenament ecosystem, thestaking and the rich get richerproblem. You brought up earlier yeah, you know M thestaking, so so the inflation asyou can see as two ways right the most. So as a validator, that'sreally what generates the M terewards and commissions for us andit's a crucial. Definitely in the ECASYSTEM m. It it sort of functions.As you know, the Mechnism to incentivize all the dedigators and theevaditors it drives the Ho ecosystem Um. I so the rich get Richar Problem M. I so I haven't seen Bas suition just yet.You know I've been studying different. The concessoboto cause throughoul theyears Um. I don't think there's susion Tosip, but I think tomit to get thisproblem. Um a slution I like, or you know, aprotagy like is harmony where they have this sort of theythey. Have this regulation Um liketype of mechanism where, if you stake too much, you get punished and the foursmaller guys. If you stick not like too much but the protocos sort of they itbombs you up. So you have this so sort of regulated, Zoam that to keep thistaking way, dispubition sort of balanced Um. I'm not an expert an that,but I do think it's. You know a...

IV better solution to prevent. You know the proble you just mentionedintendement I've seen actually projects attempting to make attendanmententirely randonize you, I think, there's thisproduct, sorry project out of Korea, they're working sort of integrating theH. I believe it was VDF, I think theyborrowed the concent from algarant and they wanted to sort of INC, incorporatethat inte, tenement and and M. I'm also in talk with this projectcalled Statebox, not in Topot O, know, Um, I'm a good friends but theyre founders,so they're working on something really interesting. They are working on m sortof utilizing the I believe there was this competitionand Amazon there. I think they're designing Um some typeof chips to make different consensus, brotocause entirely randonized, so that was ov, a problem where you knowthese days. The most contentis portocolls are written by sulfurdevatpers, assuming how the hardbit works so often times when you simulate youragorisms on the ship. It's not really competitionally credical Um, so you W.I definitely see different attempts in this field Um, but just on tendement. I think this sepcific problem. I wouldn't evencall it an issue. I think it was a trade off they made Um. You know it's very much, a verysimprified traditional pb ft Mato Um at the key, the key concept intenden. Isit symplifies the view change step? You know during the Protocol M, I'm sureyou have more, you know you're propebly and you know better. You know expertthan I am non so so I canget te speed on that. Personally, so yeah yeah an a a and you know you have other.You know many protocos. You know you have a casper, you have all the otherones and you know Casper is in many ways the the exact opposite to tendementintendament we favored Um safety over liveness and Casper is the EIC opposite.They favor avatability over. You know safety, so they think that intendemeant, it's a huge problem where, if, if at any given checkpoint, youknow if less than two thirds of the votes are received, the Chink can stoptemporarily can halt. It could be a problem. You know it hashappened before. I believe I believe it halted in exchange in the past. You know you K, it could be a problem, but you know,like I said it's more of a trade off rather than a you know. Slaw in, liketactual ratual channel, stop making progress until R. Until so, it will go to you knowdifferent rounds or steps until enough of thosear received yeah, it's m kindof a trade off soprenicurious like Theh inprostructurecosts that you mentioned earlier, yeah Um. You know I will give you justone example: You will understand the power strip, we use just one powerstrip, it six hundred dollars, Yeh so like that that Livits, theavailability of people who can who can participate in this type of thing you,R, Youre, you're, yeah, you're, absolutely right there it it getsexpensive. You know I live in momavew right. I live withiut two miles fromGog headquarters. I pay a Lort Ram, but my server costs are weigg more thanthat Wa more than when paying rap. So what is the? So? I actually don'tunderstand why you need that much like power to do staking. That's KINDOF,like the advertised benefit of staking rate. Youdon't need to maintain. You are absolutely right, andespecially in bft based notes, bft based, protocolss you're. Absolutelyright. You know the availability is not a huge issue. Um. You know by the W 'looking at the Dash Wat. We have for Costos everynow or whatever you kN,allthe, tendemembers change. If you look at a CP usage, it's constantly below like ten percent,maybe fifteen percent Max and we're using maybe a top of the land. You knowhardwars. We don't need that much power...

...and it's definitely an overkill for now, but you're. Seeing one more projectsthat I sort of require the top of lying hardware. I werecently joined this project, Leno H, network they're based on Tenma as well they're,actually one of the early adopters Oftende Mint, oh well. I was compowingee on the note and everything Umi would get to panic. Errs it turned out that you wouldneedatleast thirty two Gigabyes Ofram available at all times just to in acompile the node which which really had me as a surprise 'cause. For when Istarted out for COSMOSOR anow. You know the early projects. Sixteen GIGADBYES WASBE recommendedRECOMM. You know M cofiguration for I service, but now you know you'relooking at thirty, two Um and you know a ton of disc space. Youknow it guess, fill ou Reay quickly, UM and U you know, but to extra question. Do we need to no? But you sort of it's just a thing thatyou might as bout: Do it in the beginning so and I safe o trouble lateron migrator or infrastructure right also. There is an aspect of likeredundency so like. If one of your mchites goes off line, you don't bepenntalized and the Provo stake alghithms that thatl. That will punishyou for yeah not being available. Yet just just on that topic, I sort of Wanto touch on Thi, another sort of Um um topic so Um. I think most of evaiiisthey just ris single about it. It is set up, but we don't. We actually wanttwo wathers that up so one is actively signing. One is on standby and weimplemented our own Um waiting e mine raft. I'm pretty sure you guys haveheard of it really simple cosensus mechanism and dogger actuallyimprements that so we impremented raft between our two RT innernotes. So atany given time only one thel will be signing. But if that N Goyou know tocandow or something happened to it, the other no you know comes in, you knowbasically took it over and you know that's just extra cost,but you know, as you climb of the Ladter, you know with more stak in yourvalilator y. it's just it becomes a must to invest. You know a huge amountof money, infe structure and Um, apparently nowadays Um when, when you know the investors, thededigators, when they do their do didigens Um. The security of yourinstructure is probably the number one thing that theylook into. You know they SOM I've. Had People asking me for a security reporton my infrastructure. I didn't, I didn't disclose it, but youknow I thought that was interesting. 'cause. You know I didn't know. Peoplewould have value OAS security of that bus right O I mean they should I I justhad no idea they would. You know C, that's t I don't know that might bethat carries over from traditional security, infrostructure yeah yeah, that's just ote of thesesituations were like I most of the Times in traditional web security.You're, assuming that those nodes, an Erverstructure, is holding valuablePersonal Tata, Pii F of things Mor ofthen, not an these taking mecchanismonything, that's valuable inside the mode, really is just the keys that thatyou dosign things and how Ou, how well you secure those you non't really holdgay t more often than that you're not holding the Eyeeye of anybody's custominformation. Anything like that, access to those things and access tothose kees could could be incredibly detrimental if that sent them properly.MHM Yeah, yeah, swoing Cosmo was the worst thingthat could happen to your vot it your note, you know, of course your noe gotattacked and somehow you know the hacker got access to your keys andstuff um you would. You would only lose yourcoins in your own accounts, you know or account Um, but they could make adouble signg where which can the to you getting slashed. You know B that wayyour detas wil stake, but you know technically we're not. We don't haveaccess to ACQOINTON. I want to make it clear that your coins are not in ourcustody. If you STAK, you know with us, we yeah yeah, just because differentproocols have different. You know: Implementations we've had I'E e. Thisproject M, which I joined two years ago. They they store your private key in aconfiguration file and just they just...

...left it like that. Hirwin yeah, yeah yeah and I could we have this tetegrambought in outegram channel. You could actually Um sort of fatch that information throughThog with ther. Like you know s and stuff, it was just. It was a disasterand H to make it worse. I was talking to Canabout. Yesterday I joined thisproject two years ago and today Athmade aroast revenue, twenty nine twenty nine dollars exactlynine dollars. Yeah. That's that's T' yeah! So you KNW it S. I mean it a top of business.That's after overhead, though right so you are making money Ia, Crrectno hat, that's no! No O awsome illness, twenty nine dollars!Yes, RAZYEAHSO WEAS is no it's not our poorfolio it. It's just one of the side projects that he's Wor, yeah yeah yeah. Yes, why did it get that clearedup Andso? Where do you see where do yousee this going 'cause it? It seems as though, at least under current PROOFORSTAK systems um every day, joes aren't going to be participating very muchbecause of the infrastructure costs and then know how of running a lot of thestuff like safely availof like available andsecure m. How do you seeproofasti networks growing more and more? Is it just goingto be a bunch of businesses or is? Is it going to be Okayyeah, I mocratizedto AC being able to do this at home. I can do it, but I I am O know how inthis stuff than most people, yet you definitely can. As a matter offact, we started out running a costmals node on my rastpberry Pie. You knoinjust right next to me M. unfortunately, I believe after a fewbilds, they stopped Um supporting arm ararchitecture. So we couldn't do that, but um you know so long term. I think staking service. You know like us. We will not. We would not be sustainable if you didn't have any outther ronew streams. Oh, it's just not going to be possible, especially withthe more more projects lhine. I said, going fully radomnized right, so Um youhave more people joining in and you know you only have that much of a potand you have to divide it with so many people Um and I don't think the statingewords aremeant to be Um w, making a business sustainable. You have to sort of giveup your ownst business strategies and all that to make yourself profitableand sustainable m. So you know that's just my take on it.We're actually seeking other mings. You know we w. We were looking for funding. We werelooking for other in Kno ways just to gather revenue. You know where only sopractically you know, Cetral court is nod, you know as many others we're notfunded everything we do is out of our own pockets. You Know Um, we definitelyenjoy that. You know we don't have a boss that tells us what to do and whatnot to do um you know. But what sucks about is we just don't? Have he capitaltose? You know sort of maneuver this space, as you know, as as you know, as you know,as we would like, but you know overall we're pretty comfortable with wherewe're today, but that's not to say we won't be. You know no continue to work hard Y K, O expendthe business but yeah Um. I see most Stak incomplise sort ofdivibinto. This Um, you know, try to think yeah. I think it wascutting out there yeah he o Cind UF. Yes, S, Kindo, going to hit on whatJane was saying. I think, right now being that were such like an Xmamir,excuseme experimental phase with the staking space. All these projects areso young. You know a lot of the the projects. Don't have a lot of value tothem as far as like theyre Tokeng and like the return on interest things likethat, so I'm seeing kind of staking service providers enterthe space initially just to really get that brand going. You know like hey,you want to be a staking service provider Um. You know just to kind ofget things recognized in the space and then kind of branch out like therwerseen people like hey now. Now we want to build like a deck or we want tostart being consoleand sorr. We want to do this Tis, it's just it's more sokind of getting your foot in the space...

...to kind of build that brand,essentially for later ambitions M, and I think it's pretty cool Um. You know Imaybe in a long term you might see some people just like solely focused onmistaking, but I think right now, like being that we're sto young at thisspace I mean, I, I don't see it being very profitable at thisbut, but youknow long term. I I definitely think it's a good way to kind of get thingsgoing and if your interest is in the proop of stake space, so it's kind offunny you you put it that way. B'cause, I see it almost similar to what miningwas back in the day like it wasn't that profitable from a home experience, butyou gained a lot of know how, in the process of of doing it, you learned howthings work wo then figured out where other business opportunities could be.It's it's almost like advanced hoddling, because yeah, not only are you likeaccumulating money or accumulating H, whatever? U Networks, token you'R, you're doing,which could potentially be profitable later on down the line, assuming thatthat Um, I that I guess the popularity of the token rises and the valurizeswith it. But you get a tremendous amount of nohow and, at the same time,signal that you're interested in this coin of participating in at nework andhelping it thrive. But, like doing the thing alone, probably isn't going tosustain you unless you were one of the topic time players at least how thingsare currently implemented, and that seems to be whatyou've both set out setut yeah and it s it's pretty cool, becauseyou know coming into this, I wasn't really the most technical. I didn'tcome from a technicical background, but being able to work with J Ol this theykind of learn things as we go. I've been able to you know, expand my ownknowledge base like tenfolds kind, O get things going on, and it's just it'sexciting to constantly be learning m. You know what these projects are doing.You know how they can be omplemented later on in the future and M yeah. JustHa like I said it's a great opportunity to initially build out that businessinterest yeah just addto that Um, you know the infre structure. Caus is morethan just your notes. M. For example, when we do um n we d when we when we were developing our chorisexplorer, we had to keep the service roing. Just for you know the backhanddatabase and t you know the Frontan, the client and you have to keep the thenode running just for the explorer, and on top of that we alto give up otherprojects. You know Um. We give up this Um Cin you pols or region network. Soyou know you have all these. You know sort of heading cose that people don'tsee. You know we have to keep the service running for a differentpurposes. It really adds up Um, though I personally know quite a few badideaters in the costmo system that they use extremely cheap. You know just aClou, you know tos like Um. What's the word, Digitalosan droplokslike the little one yeah yeah yeah yeah, those ones you can actually get by withthose quite uncomfortably right now, Um, I yo. I don't know how long thatwould last, but you know you can actually get by and you can earn prettygood money if you charge, like you know, say: Fifteen twenty percent commissionwith a little bit of you, know dedication from the fundation. You know we can earn pretty good, pretty good money. I believe. There'sone valitator in the costmos savalitators sat that chargus a hundredpercent commission Ey. That means- and they Um. I think at one point you know I I wasdoing the math. They were making thousands of if Yo e, no jus dolars yeah bewiwith,mostly delegations from the fundation, not from dedicators. But you know.That's good money because they charge a e O hundred percent. They don't theydon't share the Pie. They're thot, only ro they dot ne O smallan. They. Theyhave a really interesting um like way of doing things. They they do. Thisthing called Reba, so if you dedigate to them at the end of each month, theyhave this. Like L, this, like automated thing, thatsort of kicks so bag Um, like you, know, a certain percentage like the more youstay with them, the high percentage it is, you know, but I'v. I I don'texactly know how that works, but I thought it was like. It was a reallyinteresting marketing strategy, but you know a hundred percent Um Commission.It was just you know something else, but you know it also. It also makes youstand out. Amonst, you know, allthe valilators, with most O Radita ischarging ten percent. Some even you know some people charge zero persent.They take nothing, they only take the peticular rewards, but they don't take the commission. So that makes you wonder you know howis it? How could it be profitable for...

...those people right? If they take noneJu, they only take the the rewards, which is very minimum. You know, parentto Oit's for signaling purposes, I'd imagine yeah and, as a matter of fact, nhe biggestvalidator in costmals, you can look at P, I'm not gon t disclose the name.They were running a zeropersn commission for the longest time a K ow.It caused a lot of drama discussions in the Ecuosystem, but somehow theirelegation count only when ot, so they have to be doing somethingright right, Um, so you know H, there's a lot of what Icaul social engineering behind this. It's way more than just doing whatpeople can see, it's more more, so you know what people can see, but you knowthat influences yeah too, and really it really sucks too, because you know froma Plika a community perspective. You see these people like they seesomething. That's Zeo percent and you know they don't know what the like, Iwould say, the fair market value of what a delegation commission should be so when they see that yet oversaid theysee our ten percent. I mean an everyday retail. You KNO Eren, ten percent,that's a huge difference, so they're going to go to e Zai percent all daylong and it kindo sucks. Because you know we see these people who wereindividual staking service providers like kind of fall out because theycan't keep up with that type of aggressive marketing and Um. You knowit it just it sucks, because you know, as we grow different staking. Serviceproviders also need to kind of come together on identifying, what's 'd, saya palatable commission rate M for other delegators in the long term. So youit's yeah yeah mosticually. Hopefully we yeah thestakin prices are ar marketin themselves. Since they're, like you, have a group of people trying tosdevise the community to bond tokens to Ou, so you can gain more more revenuein the process of doing it. An have I mean, depending on the network,GOVERNANC'e power ND and voting and yeah exactly it as like. Yeah play,whatever tactics that are possible, it's very similar to mining pools and in terms of how they you're absolutelyright. As a matter of fact, um I'm seeing more projects that that'sbased on proof of stake hat they require gep use. That makes me that really just doesn'tyou know sit say wat mean that well Um. It goes back to the mining problemright. If you're a you, know, richer guy, you have more, you know youdefinitely can you can acquire more cheap, you use. It only makes theproblem worse, especially long term Um Um, you know I it's it's it's it's. Ijust don't get why people would do that if you're, if you're claiming Um e decentralized,you know what we call defy and the you're putting gpus in the picture. Itjust doesn't Saso well with me and it also limits our ability to expand inour service to other platiforms. 'cause Yo know m. We don't really have a UM. You know we have as big of acapital. As you know, a lot of this. You know M vcs or funds Um, you know.If so we couldn't we couldn't join. You know, you know the GPU type ofprojects, even if we wanted to 'cause. We just don't. Have the capital Um so,like I said the steaking industryis way more than just Um. You know you know. Well, we said running notesand Um, I'm actually seeing more projects goingthe mining route. You know talking deals with the bigger guys and I'personally know: Um People who are Yo k, ow the biggernames they got offered a spot. You know in different projects,so wh so high works is you know? Maybe you don't have to join our test net? Wewuld just give good points once k once we go bin at you get a coinyou put out avadidator you're good to go, you know, so how so? How? How isthat fair? You know it's all behind the close doors, but you know it's just howpeople do business. It seems as though that's that's almostone of those situations where, as this entire industry has grown Um and brought on, I guess more traditional business folk in termsof recent levelae legitimacy, where there aple from Mi from from the restof the world tored signing onto it and...

...with that came traditional deals andhow you do business and like a lot of the ideology that that started. This isis waning. I'd, say a little bit because trying to go for equal distributionbased on early participation, which is almost the hallmark of Thi coin or atleast the beginnings of their clirm, is no longer really thees yeah. You know I was looking at thevaditator Ain costels. You know the a hundred valid ators, ranked by wait. Itlooked to nothing like how it loked way back when I joined you know or when itfirst went live um I couldn't recognize, maybe half of the valitators. You knowthey were just like aut of nowhere, but apparently they were able to get theyou know the coins yeah. So yeah. Really, if you have the money you can you canpull off a lot a lot of things. Still. You know we have a long wey to go inthese. I have one Adam. I it's on my desk Yoa about ourfels at all, like how dohow do you see that PLA cartel in Westensing, like a SIPLOTAC scenari oryou know in like more of a you know the morket manipulation I don't knowdenying transactions that should go through that kind of thing, YouveenWorrie, a O. Oh you nowthat's such a good point. I wanted to touch on thisso intendament. You know back to when I was comparing Caspar andtendoment right, intena minute right now, you as a Vadidator, sorry,so to so. To put it simply in Tenementh, Onling vaditators e are not punished ifthey, if they trid to censor the soon to go offline, vadidators they're notpunished for that, but in Casro they get punish so yeah. So y. Youdefinitely could you know attempt to censor other people.You know to make them not bing able to do certain things Um. You know whetherit's transaction not going through Ren, all that it's t's, it's yeah, it'sdefinitely problem. That's why Earlyi was saying that we do all these things. We calldifferent defense techniques to prevent the Habin. You know you can't really preventpeople doing that. But what you can do you know have a defense mechanism. Incase that happens. We also have to market to make sure that communityknows that you're not going to which could be. You know, you know the social enguring aspect. INCOSTMALSis huge, which I think is good. You sort of have to be vocal on socialmedia and, in you know, telegram chess and all that she would just get theclub. Sorry ut. You know for the Laccond for a better term Um, but youknow can probably knows it better than then than I do. Wehave sing people literally begging for dedegation on Trailer Right, Oh yeah,it's prettyit's just crazy and they ended up ranking higher than we are, but ATN ut. Youknow it's it's just. You know just different. It's interesting things thatyou see so oo, God Geti, sorry, Ohit'slike,okay, Um! So yeah, when this occasion happens, don't get me Rock Li. I lovethe causine community. It's real obing yeah, everybody everybody's H, realfriendly Um. You know it's it's, unlike any other project, I've seen in thelast five years as far as like a community fogues, sorry not tointerrupt you. Yeggostnos is the most engaging community. I've ever seen anycryptal projects, yes mostweare in where maybe like a twenty plus proof ofsick type of projects, many of which are tendement based so weare like allfamily, but it's such a different scenario when gointo other people'scommunities, ' just not the same yeah yeah, most definitely and when Theyswhen this occasion happened. That Jan was referring to this this. Thisstaking provider kind of begging for things. I I saw things and I was like.Oh my God like this, is no way. This is not going to happen. You know he felloff of the top hundred. It's just GOINGTA stay that way. But apparentlyyou know the community got behind him and you know took care of things andagain yet he got back within hours, yeahs, Aboue Sen, and it's cool becauseyou know from a community perspective. You see these people who enjoy thesecertain profiles in a sense staying within them. So, like let's say,for instance, or something were to happen, you know th, it's Kindo, likethe community, gets behind es Certin playe yeah. We, yes, sorry, just to addto that. We have no. We have absolutely no issues with this particularralitator or person, it's more so that you know it bothered us a little bithow this Ho situation you know, turned...

...out. You know yeahmostepially, it'sjust it. It's interesting to see how communities are getting behind eachother within within cosmost, and I, which is cool Yo yeah. We have, weCyprocore has our own community Um. You know the other top twenty people havetheir own community and it it's nice to kind of see them all entertwined within the Cosa Esem, but yeah. No one thing I will say,though, is and the long term of things I I a'm not again, I'm not tootechnical on the side of approach but Um. I am concerned with seeing thirty familiar faces. Oh yeah, that I think colon earlier brought up areally good point. Yeah, that's a really good point. Youdo see a lot of recycled faces in different yeas, an all the Ame people,whichwho Te ojects. I say yeah it. It's crazy, YEA! It's IT'S IT'S! Sometimesit's almost like we're in costmos again like it's, the exact same tat, ee. Youknow the top guys and the yeah and it's N it's not just within tenerm an thecosmos. It's not it's! It's Rost all these protocols and you know I was whenI was in Sal Aria. I was able to talk to some valitators about this and youknow it was interesting to see the reaction we like like. Did you guys notthink about that tawwhat? What you guys are doing I mean is that is it becausethey could say the same thing about you? Is it because, because they've alreadygotten all the know how ne to use in this prosructure they're just like wellshit, just do all the other ones that are similar, yeah yeah, no doubt yeahand M. I think honestly, we're not we're not a fase to be too concernedabout it. But you know as these these these uh these chains like mature overtime M. it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. You know itreally is because at the end of the day, everybody's aiming to be discentralized,but how are you defining disentalization if you all share thesame Valod at or sech Yo know it's yeah y? U Know Qit tat Ye ar burning up a lot. We donot have we. This is a wishy washy. You know fuzzy word decentralization andabsoutl types of categories that we could consider decentralization where's,the line between simply distributed systems and de centralized systems atis there Alin in his dessential, really a word for governance, or is it an workfor computing oere draw rantlice? It's a thing is like CODA: it's an umbrellaterm. That has absolutely a lack of metrics to define, Gean or and wherethey are't, and I think that that language is going to have to improve sothat people can make wiser iftrastructure decisions when theyintegrate the assistance into their larger enterprise. You knowarchitectures yeah yeah, it's funny. You say that I called 'cause a coupleof months back. I heard you throwing that around on the flagship show forthe big cint podcast and ever since then, I'm like man, that's that'sreally interesting approach. You nother, you really can't really can't throw tocentralization without really defiing it to a certain aspect and Um, and withthat being said, you know it's e'r're, so young at a time where we're tryingto find out what is really dicentralization and what really isn'tUm. But you know it it. It's funny. You kN W ho h how we kind of h took that on,and you know on that note I would say last week we were able to write up alittle bit about that Um within the education system, so that was that waspretty fun. You know trying to understand what dissensralization inthat and that H, Wul, Sayat, yeah, andmaybe, J afte, word cool. The wordcool is a very geneeric Termo, exactly an like. You know cool. When you see it,you know o that's but like it's also very personal, andit has a differet. An like. What's cool to one person might not be cool toanother, and so maybe you know to centralizationis like nlike, the word cool and I'm not going to go that for like ti O, I'mnot going to go that far. It's it's A. I know. It's not cool I'LL! Tell youwhat disagreeig with you. I have an idea for youallike t attracta tremendous amount of people's deals else platform and if those who don'tknow kins an active participant in the big UENPOTGAST slack, a d think aboutit that day, he will post a series of means that n hour oranother everyonehas has come to rely on so y. that's that's your countoo strategy forgetting people. Tho, H, Tafali yeah, I say like mean. Ninety percent oftheings are scupe cool about ten percent of Hem Er acsolutely disturbingThou du Ey. I just copy au Pasguy, but yeah. I know most. Definitely it'sit's pretty fun in the slack. I definitely love the community s aoand.That's kind of what this all's about you're just talking about this secondago m. A good portion of everything we're trying to do here is buildcommunities and signal to like get people to join those communities toparticipate and an staking as s as, as...

...seems to be what you've told usabsolutely no different here. Mhm Yeah, that's a good point! Um! You know it'sactually a huge issue which I call the fragmentation incommunication channels. In these criptal projects as Evvalidator, I oftentimes have tojump between maybe like five different chats just for one project COMEBA andwe have man, we avsix something projects right and often times. I wouldmiss like a really important, like upgrade Ou chank upgrade announcementand what happens is you know? I missed that announcement. I O N, I feltupgreay and we or no get slashed. We lose money yeah. Somebody will make anannounce, yeah G, Dioyeah 'cause. We don't have so many different as wedon't have a you know. You know sort of like a community manager to do all thatwe would do everything o ourselvs. You know you know the Martins are alreadypretty thin. I no like you canforard to to hire someone on yeah. You know wemake barely enough to to make us to continue basically and to be honest as ivoded it as as ahuman being, the more money you make, the less you care about decentialitionand all that just to be honest with you Um, that's just a fact. You know yesterday,when I met, can the whole time we were maybe talking about commission and all thatyou know the remenues we were able to generate. We didn't talk aboutTDESENTALATION. It just doesn't come up. Dram your daty conversation Um. Youknow, I think that thatthat's wariness, that's a good Yeminis for you. Iappreciate those things Kin O. I think those things come in through, like thecompinitys that you're involved in it's almost like an emergent ideal thatcomes from the community that you're part of not necessarily anindividualistic thing yeah, and I absolutely hates peopletalk about this sentuialization without any contest. You know I can, by the way, Canada we bothcoauthored a what I call you know our best article today you know we talkedabout. We called. We talked about the sentialization and education provision.You know when Yo talk about this entusation, you have to talk about talkabout it with it. You know a subtific, you know, l within the supcific Um, youknow aspect and the you can expend on that.You know by self it rea doesn't mean anything O to add that to the shownots M,speaking of which whyn't we tipretty good chance to wrap up. How do peopleget in touch Tyou, guys and learn more yeah? I think Um our website Cipro Cordaao as they go toplace Um and we have ou social lings on there. We have our republication lingson there. We have bias on there. Everything on there yeah, you can catch me on Thi, slack H.You know on twitter and Kenneth tweets. Thi is pretty pretty straightforwardand everything elsei. Everything else is, you know, re preference to thewebsite. You know I got all personal information there and so does j. So ifyou ever need to reach out O we're always available absolut yeah Um yeah,before we get off as Wans to Sea Cuick, I definitely Anmi Wes d, a status andAVD laps. Is that correct, ehcool X, yeah, yeah, O Calliaton, alas yea yeah? I I've alwayswanted to study. You know the H. Snowball was at snowball, or was itthere's a couple of hem th hard to keep track of the class of consensus,mechaniss kind of build on each other, and you start out yeah. I actually haveyou guys H, believe a technical paper in my eraderI just haven't, got a chance to read it Um and Coi proew already Um yeah, I wasplaying with you know the Keycart Yeah onio. No, it was pretty fun. It'scoming out soon, Gat. What about a golings of you comingout soon? How hello is the Goa how's I Golan now asdicagn, that's great. I Man T at's, that's the main. That's the main way to use it right now, right nowyou can also use it inside th, Nosa, safe, the application on Myosena antrdand then yeah the one which should be coming out within a few weeks after theaudit we'll also have kecrd integration. So it's just one of those likemultifactor authendications keys, never leave the car kind of, hopefully aneasier way to safely manage crypto without having to like yeat worryiabout compromises on phones and roots and stuff like that yeah, that's super cool thinks forcoming on. I appreciate it also like...

Hinetin, hading US and H allright. Iwas thats fun. Conversation Gus, O think Ayw thankscory thanks Co, reciat.

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