Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 65 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #65 – Cypher Core – Jay Jie and Ken Trueba

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode features Jay and Ken from Cypher Core. Cypher Core offers a staking as a service platform for Proof of Stake protocols. Primarily focused on Cosmos network, we talk with them about their experience implementing their system, incentive models involved with staking services, and the overall Cosmos community.

Links:
– decentralization blog
– cyphercore.io
– Ken’s Twitter
– Jay’s Twitter

Entering work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Welcome back to the show, everybody, hashing it out. I'm your host, Dr Corey. Petty Collins, the other host. Say Hello Everybody, Colin. Hello, everybody, Colin. Yeah, simple, factive, effective. Today's episode we're going to talk to Cipher Corp. We have Ken and J with us when I shall start by introducing yourselves and letting US know how you got into the space. Jay, you first. Yeah, so my name is Jay. By Day and the CTUS, as you was we are a blockchain platform. Sorry, we're a education system on blockchain and by night, I'm the founder and Sto as every core so, cipher court is a staking service provider. Found it in two thousand and seventeen in steady of valley. Starting out it was just me on can and later aren't we brought on art as the lead death and Jason as the advisor and Leean and Andy as the writers. By the way, we have our detailed individual bio on our site, so few free to check it out. So we sort of got into this proof of stake valudation service business after a meeting I had with Chando. She was the head of communications at a Costmos at the time, so we sort of shared insights regarding costmos ambitions and, you know, technical details. From there we decided to join their test nap and ultimately we realized how huge staking was set out to be, with potential use cases such as, you know, defy, etc. Etc. And then we participated in game of stakes. It's, you know, basically an incentivized the battle of notes, and we were awarded with some tokens for solid performance, I guess. And over time we just opened up our staking service two more platforms, such as Wayne, Chang Ristnat leano network, and here we are today. Trey, what about your by guys? Can I started out on the CEOS? I started in the block chain space, I would say, around two zero. Was In sixteen, just more so as a writer. I was an enthusiast throughout, like my high school days, but that was like two thousand and twelve, two thousand and thirteen. As a kid, you know, you're not really going to take much too seriously. So you know, I was able to end like dive in and out of things but then really get picked it up in two thousand and sixteen as like just doing little writing blogs and then English translation for Cork Chains White Paper, which was pretty cool, you know. So that was a good experience initially. After that I was contacted by j about cider corps and then we kind of just picked up things from there and you know, that's kind of the back story as far as like how I got involved with blockchain space and whatnot. It's kind of interesting because it seems as though most of the staking service services as exists now, or staking platforms or blockchain systems that require staking, or more like traditional ppft staking mechanisms, and like what is what is the like the business case for running staking services for these type of networks? Yeah, I have this analogy I really like, but you know, some don't. So it's pretty similar to, you know, banks. You put your money in, you know banks, and you you are an interest, and then it's the same thing with staking. You know, you put your coins, not our hands, but not not quite, because we don't actually not have access to your coins, but you sort of just bomb your coins with us and then you are interest and it so at the right now I think you're looking at about ten percent staking return percentage in cosmos, maybe a little bit more than that. So you know, it's definitely a lot higher than, you know, what bank gives you. So there's definitely, you know, incentive in in that about for you guys like how Y'all? How do y'all? How Y'ALL DIV you that out? How to decide, how to do it right? How it puts the infrastructure light for providing these types...

...of services. Yes, so infrastructure. So we designed our infrastructure based on, you know, many different ways you can attack a note. So there are a number of ten ways you can do it, with the most obvious one being, you know, D dos attacks. So tendement being an entirely deterministic, constantus protocol, allows a note to be targeted Ford dos attacks, where the notes Ip address and its Rest Api port becomes vulnerable. So what Typically Heavens next is that the communication between notes can be halted and it autimately leads to blocks not being committed. So to mitigate this, the very problem, many of us, you know, many of us Cosmos of edators, implement a what we call century note architecture. It's insentially and infrastructure design for the DOWSETTAG mitigation. So the whole idea is that while you have your validator node or notes in a data center, you also deploy multiple distributed notes, you know, the central nodes, in a cloud environment. So if your validator no, that did get attacked, your central notes could be, you know, quickly set up and integrate it into the transaction flow. Is Sort of just diverges the transactions going into the validator node or notes. So not only does this help with scaling, it also makes makes it harder to make an impact on the validator node. And on top of that, we also implemented techniques that prevent the keys from being compromised to help secure the trusted links between nodes and lots been the least, you know, techniques that help us stay on top of the security patches in tenderment as well as in Cosmos S DK. So yeah, that's pretty much it. What what guests worries me, ECS. That makes a lot of yes, in terms of yeah, a kind of a staking system that doesn't have a tremendous amount of stakers in a network. As the network grows and the number of participants grow, that the number validators doesn't really grow. But so what did it happening? Because you have the same amount of validators just getting bonded to more and more often, similar to what your services you you know, you know what. You're absolutely right. So, you know, I thought we could have talked about, you know, in a how profitable or sustainable this staking business really is, right. Yeah, so, yeah, you know, you absolutely right there. So if you look at Cosmos Right, right now, you're looking at about thirty five, thirty four validators that are charging a commission of a ten percent, and the current price of Adam is, I believe, three dollars and eleven cents or something like that, and the stake near return percentage for now per year as around ten percent. So imagine you have a small team like us, to developers. Why? You IU act person, went marketing person and one operation person. Such a team needs at least the three hundred K in revenue per year. That's extremely low in the bay. But you know, just pathetically speaking right. So hundred K revenue per year. That translates to roughly thirty million dollars worth of Adam dedicated to your validator. So in Tokens that's roughly, I believe, night point six million atoms if you run it down. So if you look at the weights distribution in the current validators set in cosmos, only the top four validators actually meet the minimum requirement for out of the hundred. Okay. So, of course this just estimate in a guest ament, not science. And the higher the price, I mean the higher the token price, the more profit vo it's going to be for the validators. Or you can simply just raise your, you know, commission rate. But you know, just for the sake of this discussion, let's say you raise your commission rate front ten percent to twenty percent and we're sticking to the three hundred k revenue estimate and the ten percent staking return percentage, you would need a roughly four point eight million Adams staked to your validator. That unfortunately only includes top nine validators at the current token price, not even the ten. So you know. And finally, to make so to make half of the hundred validators profitable in this particular scenario, you would need the price of Adam to be twenty dollars while charging at twenty percent commission.

That's a lot, a lot higher than than what we're seeing today. So you know. So by now you probably already figured out that we, as a cipher core currently ranked at number seventy. We will be losing money running the business if we had no other revenue streams. So it's you know, it's definitely not an easy business getting the getting the commission and rewards from your notes alone. It's definitely not enough to cover your operational cost. Now I was thinking about that in turn and and up when I look at even other staking is it you think it's going to be better for staking systems like at two, where you have a lot more steakers and they're more, I'd say, individualized? I think it depends to get just you know, give you an example on when chain their galaxy constensus mechanism. It's entirely randomized. Maybe not entirely, but you know, much better. Not Better, you know, sorry, just different protocol. So in Wine Chang you know, say you have vtedators, whether it a and about it to be a holding. are a thousand coins and be holding hundred K coins. Over long term, these two guys will be getting roughly the same amount of rewards or return because the protocol is rand a knife. So the possibility of you getting selected as as a blog producer, as you know, roughly the same long term for anybody. But in Cosmos, you know, in a deterministic consensus protocol like a Tenement, you do have that. You know, the rich tends to get richer that problem and you know we as a smaller fish in a sea, we definitely they suffer from that. You know, we do a lot of things. You know, we do a publication, we do side of projects, you know, open source, what I call community projects, to you know, to generate you know, whether it's cloud or, you know, just the chip, to generate revenue. And we also do, you know, contracted works, you know, development and we do consulting to you know what you know. You definitely have to just to explore and generate other revenue streams. Otherwise I think a lot of these, you know, smaller guys would be out of business soon, you know, and by the way, you know the bigger guys, such as coin base, is coming in too. So you know, the exchanges. So, yeah, it's actually SOS tough. Brought up to me recently. I don't know much about tenements. Slap sorryness staking mechanism, I was told, is actually kind of shockingly similar to what we're developing at the company our for Oh yeah, and yeah, we independently have a lot of similarities and have the same but you know, one thing we're trying to avoid, as idea of like staking, hyperinfron inflation and people just being able to like constantly accumulate. Yeah, yeah, tell me a little more about like what's going on with the tenement ecosystem. Mistaking in the rich get richer problem you brought up earlier. Yeah, you know, the staking, so in so the inflation, as you can see, as two ways, right. The most so as a validator. That's really what generates the rewards and the commissions for us and it's crucial, definitely in the ecosystem. It is sort of functions, as you know, the mechanism to incentivize all the dedicators and the validators. It drives the whole ecosystem. I so, the rich get richer problem. I so I haven't seeing a solution just yet. You know, I've been studying different the consensus pottle cause throughout the years. I don't think there's solutions just you, but I think it to mitting it this problem. A solution I like or, you know, a Protoco I like is harmony, where they have this sort of they have this regulation like type of mechanism where if you stick too much you get punished and the for smaller guys, if you stick not like too much, but the protocols sort of they it bumps you up. So you have this so sort of regulated a zone that to keep the staking weight distribution sort of balanced. I'm not an expert in that, but I do think...

...it's, you know, a slide you better solution to prevent, you know, the problem you just mentioned and tenderment. I've seen actually projects attempting to make a tendement entirely randomized. You I think there's this product, sorry, project out of Korea. They're working like and sort of integrating the I believe it was VDF. I think they borrowed the concept from algoriant and they wanted to sort of include, incorporate that into tenderment. And and I'm also in talk with this project called state box, not in top but you know, I'm good friends with their founders. So they're working on something really interesting. They are working on sort of utilizing the I believe there was this competition and Amazon there. I think they're designing some type of chips to make different constantus protocols and entirely randomknize. So that would solve a problem where, you know, these days the most constantus protocols are written by software developers, assuming how the hardware works right. So oftentimes when you simulate your algorithms the ship, it's not really computationally credical. So you know, I definitely seek different attempts in this field, but just tender men. I think this specific problem, I wouldn't even call it an issue. I think it was a tradeoff they made. You know, it's very much a very simplified tradition of ppft model. At the key the key concept intend them is it simplifies the view change step, you know, during the protocol. I'm sure you have more. You know, you're properly a you know better, you know, expert, and I am not so so I'm have to speed on that personally. So yeah, yeah, and and and and you know you have other you know many protocols. You know, you have a casper, you have all the other ones, and you know Casper is in many ways the the exact opposite to tendement. In tendement we favor safety over liveness and Casper is the eggaxact opposite. They if they were a bit ability over you know, safety. So they think that intender men, it's a huge problem. where, if at? If, at any given checkpoint, you know, if less than two thirds of the votes are received, the chain can stopp tempor earily kind of halt. It could be a problem. You know, it has happened in before, I believe. I believe it halted and exchange in the past. You know it. You know it could be a problem, but you know, like I said, it's more of a tradeoff rather than a you know, flaw, you might say, actual actual chainnel stop making progress until all although yeah, are until so it will go to you know, different rounds, are steps until enough votes are received. Yeah, it's kind of a tradeoff. I'm kind of curious, like the infrastructure cost that you mentioned earlier. Yeah, you know. I will give you just one example. You understand, the power strip. We use just one power strip. If six hundred. Yeah, so like that, that limits the availability of people who can who can participate in this type of thing. To you, I hear you your yeah, you're absolutely right. There it gets expensive. You know, I live in moment view right. I live within two miles from Google headquarters. I pay our rap, but my servert costs are way more than that, way more than when pain rap. So what is the so I actually don't understand why you need that much like power to do staking. That's kind of like the advertised benefit of staking, right. You don't need to maintain. You're absolutely right, and especially in bft based the notes, bft based protocols. You're absolutely right. You know, the availability is not a huge issue. You know, by the way. I'm looking at the DASHWOOD I we have for costmos Aris now or whatever. You know, all the tenement based chains. If you look at the CP usage, it's constantly below like ten percent, maybe fifteen percent Max, and we're using maybe a top of the line, you know, hardware's we don't need that much power...

...and it's definitely an overkill for now. But you're seeing one more projects that I sort of require the top offline hardware. I we recently joined this project, Leno Network. They're based on Tenement as well. They're actually one of the early adopters of tenement. While I was compiling, you know, the note and everything, I would get panic errors. It turned out that you will need at least thirty two gigabytes of we am available at all times just to a in a compile the node, which which really hit me as a surprise because for when I started out for costmos or everys. Now, you know the early projects, sixteen gigabytes was the recommended, recommend you know, configuration for a service. But now you know you're looking at thirty two and you know a ton of disk space. You know it gets philled up really quickly and you know. But to answer a question, do we need to know? But you sort of it's just a thing that you might as well do it in the beginning. So and a safe to trouble later own migrator infrastructure right. Also, there as an aspect of like redundancy, so like if one of your machinetes goes offline, you know, be penalized and the proof of stake algorhythms that will that will that will punish you for, yeah, not being available yeah, just just on that topic. I sort of want to touch on this, another sort of topic. So I think most of validators they just weren't a single about it it or set up. But we don't. We actually want two that it set up. So one is actively signing, one is on standby. And then we implemented our own. We implemented raft. I'm pretty sure you guys have heard of it. You know, it really simple constensus mechanism and docer actually implements that. So we implemented raft between our two of out a dinner notes. So at any given time only when no will be signing. But if that no got, you know, ticking down or something happened to it, the other know where, you know, comes in. You know basically took it over and you know that's just extra cost. But you know, as you climb up the ladder, you know with more steak in your valuator you did. It's just it becomes a must to invest, you know, a huge amount of money infrastructure and apparently nowadays, when when you know the investors in the dedicators, when they do in their due diligence, the security of your instructure is probably the number one thing that they look into. You know, they some. I've had people asking me for a security report on my infrastructure. I didn't. I didn't disclose it, but you know, I thought that was interesting because, you know, I didn't know people would have value always security of that much right. I mean they should. I just had no idea they would. You know, that's think. I don't know, that might be that that that carries over from a traditional security infrastructure. But yeah, that's just one of those situations. Were like if most of the times and traditional web security, you're assuming that those nodes and your infrastructure is holding valuable personal data, Pii of things more off than not, and these taking mechanisms. So I think that's valuable. Inside the node really is just the keys that that need to sign things and how you how well you secure those. You didn't really hold it. More often than not you're not holding the II of anybody's customer information anything like that, but access to those things and access to those keys could meet could be incredibly detrimental if that's not done properly. Yeah, yeah, so in Cosmos, the worst thing that could happen to your value your notes, you know it is, of course your note got attack and somehow, you know, the Hacker got access to your keys and stuff. You would you only lose your coins in your own accounts, you know, or account but they could make a double sign where which can dates two you getting slashed, you know. But if that way, your dedicated will stake. But you know, technically we're not. We don't have access to your coins, to you, and I want to make it clear that your coins are not in our custody if you stick, you know, with us. Yeah, we. Yeah, yeah, that's just because different protocols have different, you know, implementations. We've had F this project, which were joined the two years ago. They they store your privact key in a configuration of file and just they just left it like that between so, yeah, yeah,...

...yeah, and and and and and I could we have this telegram bought in our telegram channel. You could actually sort of fetch that information through, through through like, you know, if you has and stuff. It was just, it was a disaster. And, to make it worse, I was talking to Kenna about yesterday. We I joined this project two years ago and today I've made it grows revenue of twenty nine thought. Twenty nine exactly. Yeah, that's that's that's yeah, so you know, it's it's a tough business. That's after overhead, though, right, so you are making money. It's that correct. But no, no, no, no, that that's no, no, that's just lost some money on this. Twenty nine. Know Ass, yes, crazy, crazy, yeah, so we're do you like? It's not our portfolio. It's just one of the side projects that he was working. Yeah, yeah, yes, wanted to get that cleared up. And so where do you see? Where do you see this going? Because it seems as though, at least under current prefer stake systems, every day Joe's aren't going to be participating very much because of the infrastructure costs and know how of running a lot of the stuff, like safely available, like available and secure. How do you see proof of stake networks growing more and more? It's it's just going to be a bunch of businesses. There's is it going to be okay? Yeah, de Mackerties, to actually people being able to do this at home. I can do it, but I have more know how in this stuff than most people. Yeah, you definitely can. As a matter of fact, we started out running a costinalne on my respberry Pie, you know, you know, right just right next to me. Unfortunately, I believe after a few builds they stopped supporting arm or arm architecture. So we couldn't do that. But you know, so long term, I think steaking service, you know, like us, we will not, we would not be sustainable if you didn't have any other revenue streams. It's just not going to be possible, especially with the more and more projects, like I said, going fully randomized, right, so you have more people joining in and you know you only have that much of a pot and you have to divide it with so many people and I don't think the staking rewards are meant to be. You know, making a business sustainable you have to sort of give up your own business strategies and all that to make yourself profitable and sustainable. So, you know, that's just my take on it. We're actively seeking other means. You know, we, we, we, we were looking for funding. We were looking for other, you know, ways just to get a revenue. You know, we're only so practically. You know, Cepheral court is not, you know, as many others, we're not funded. Everything we do is out of our own pockets. You know, we definitely enjoy that. You know, we don't have a boss that tells us what to do and what not to do, you know. But what sucks about is we just don't have the capital too you know, sort of maneuver this space, as you know, as as you know, as we you know, as we would like. But, you know, overall we're pretty comfortable with where we're today. But that's not to say we won't be, you know, not continue to work hard, I know, expand the business. But yeah, I see most steak in calm last sort of devil into this. You know, try to think. Yeah, I think I was cutting out there. Yeah, there, you kind of yeah. So just kind of a hit on what Jay was saying. I think right now, being that we're such a like an expre mirror, excuse me, experimental phase with the staking space, all these projects are so young. You know, a lot of the the projects don't have a lot of value to them as far as like they're token and like the return on interest things. That's not like that. So I'm seeing kind of staking service providers enter the space initially just to really get that brand going, you know, like you, Hey, you want to be a staking service provider. You know, just to kind of get things recognized in the space and then kind of branch out, like because we're seeing people like hey, now, now we want to build like a deck. So are we want to start being consultants? Are We want to do this? It's just it's...

...more so of kind of getting your foot in the space to kind of build that brand essentially for later ambitions, and I think it's pretty cool. You know. I maybe in the long term you might see some people just like solely focused on staking, but I think right now, like being that we're so young in the space. I mean I don't see it being very profitable at this pace, but but you know, long term, I definitely think it's a good way to kind of get things going if your interest is in the proof of stake space. So it's kind of funny, did you put it that way, because I see it almost similar to what mining was back in the day, like it wasn't that profitable from a home experience, but you gained a lot of know how in the process of doing it. You learned how things worked, you then figured out where other business opportunities could be. It's almost like advanced hoddling because, yeah, not only are you're like accumulating money or accumulating whatever networks token you're doing, which could potentially be profitable later on down the line. Assuming that that like that, I guess the popularity of the token rises in the value rises with it, but you get a tremendous amount of know how and at the same time, you signal that you're interested in this coin, of participating in at network and helping it thrive. But like doing the thing alone probably isn't going to sustain you unless you're one of the top big time players, at least how things are currently implemented. That seems to be what you've both set up. Set Up. Yeah, and yeah, it's pretty cool because, you know, coming into this I wasn't really the most technical, that I didn't come from a technical background, but being able to work with jail this the kind of learn things as we go. I've been able to, you know, expand my own knowledge base like tenfold, kind of get things going on and it's just it's exciting to constantly be learning. You know what these projects are doing, you know how they can be implemented later on in the future and yeah, it just, like I said, it's a great opportunity to initially build out that business interest. Yeah, just add to the you know, the infrastructure costs is more than just your nodes. For example, when we do we do that when we we were when we were developing our chorus explorer, we had to keep the service running just for, you know, the back end database and then, you know, the front and the client and you have to keep them the node running just for the explorer. And on top of that we also give out other projects. You know, we give up this coin, you know, Fossl, for reaching network. So you know, you have all these, you know, sort of hidden costs that people don't see. You know, we have to keep the service running for a different purposes. It really adds up, though. I personally know quite a few validators in the customer system that they use extremely cheap you know, just a cloud, you know, those like what's the word digitaliztion droplets, like the little ones? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and those ones. You can actually get by with those quite comfortably right now. I'm you know, I don't know how long that would last, but you know, you can actually get by. I can earn pretty good money if you charge like, you know, say fifteen, twenty percent, commission. With a little bit of you know, dedication from the foundation, you know, we can earn pretty good, pretty good money. I believe there's one a validator in the cosmos, a validators set that charges a hundred percent, commission. Ye See, yeah, that means and and they I think I wing playing. You know, I was doing the math. They were making thousands of really know just stallars. Yeah, a month with with mostly delegations from the foundation, not from dedicators. But you know, that's good money because they charge a hundred percent. They don't, they don't share the Pie. Yeah, that only work. They do that work a small though. Date. They have a really interesting like way of doing things. They they do this thing called Rebay. So if you dedicate to them at the end of the two month, they have this like they this like automated thing that sort of kicks you back like, you know, a certain percentage, like the more you stay with them, the high percentage it is, you know, but I've I I don't exactly know how that works, but I thought that was like it was a really interesting marketing strategy. But, you know, a hundred percent, commission it was just, you know, something else. But you know, it also it also makes you stand out amongst, you know, all the validators with most value. validators charging ten percent, some even you know, some people charge zero percent. They take nothing, they only take the be take the rewards, but they don't take the commission. So that makes you wonder, you know, how is it? How could it be profitable for those people?...

Right, if they take none, just they only take the the rewards, which is very minimum, you know, Comparis to you all. It's for signaling purposes, I'd imagine. Yeah, yeah, and, as a matter of fact, the biggest validator in cosmos. You can look it up. I'm not going to just close the name. They were running a zero percent commission for the longest time and you know, it caused a lot of drama discussions in the ecosystem, but somehow their delegation count only went up, so they had to be doing something right, right. So, you know, yeah, there's a lot of what I call so true engineering behind this. It's way more than just doing what people can see. It's more more so. You know, what people can see, but you know that influences, yeah, to and and it really it really sucks to because you know from a PLA as a community perspective. You see these people like they see something that's zero percent and you know they don't know what the like, I would say, the fair market value of what a delegation commission should be. So when they see that, Ye said, they see our ten percent, I mean in everyday retail, you know, zero percent and ten percent, that's a huge difference. So they're going to go to zero percent all day long and it kind of sucks because, you know, we see these people who were individual staking service providers like kind of fall out because they can't keep up with that type of aggressive marketing. And you know, it's just it sucks because, you know, as we grow, different staking service providers also need to kind of come together on identifying, what's say, a palatable commission rate for other delegators in a long term. So it's just, yeah, mistakenly, hopefully we mistaking. Prices are a market in themselves and since they like you have a group of people trying to incentivize the community to bond tokens to you so you can gain more more revenue on the process of doing it and have, I mean potent depending on the network, governance power and voting and yeah, exactly that has like. Yeah, people played whatever tactics that are possible. It's very similar to mining pools and in terms of how they POW. You know, you're absolutely right. As a matter of fact, I'm seeing more projects that that's based on proof of stake, but they require gpus. That makes me. That really just doesn't, you know, sit sit with me. That will it goes back to the mining problem. Right. If you're A, you know, richer guy, you have more. You know, you definitely can, you can acquire more GP use. It only makes the problem worse, especially long term. You know, it's it's I just don't get why people would do that. If you're if you're claiming a decentralized you know, what we call defy, and then you're putting gpus in the picture. It just doesn't sit with so well with me. And it also limits our ability to expand in our service to other platforms, because we know we don't really have a you know, we don't have as big of a capital as you know a lot of this, you know, VC's or funds. You know, if so, we couldn't we couldn't enjoin. You know, you know, the GPU type of projects, even if we wanted to, because we just don't have the capital. So so, like I said, the staking industry is way more than just, you know, you know what we said, running notes and I'm actually seeing more projects going the old mining route, you know, talking deals with the bigger guys, and I've personally know people who are, you know, the bigger names. They got offered a spot, you know, in different projects. So so high works is. You know, maybe you don't have to join our test net. We would just give you the points once are you know, once we go, being that you get the coin. So you put up a votiator, you're good to go. You know. So how that so? How is that fair? You know, it's all behind the closed doors, but you know, it's just how people do business. It seems as though that's that's it. Almost one of those situations where as this entire industry has grown and brought on, I guess, more traditional business folk in terms of it reached the level of the legitimacy where correct people from the from the from the rest of the world that it's signing on to it, and with that came traditional deals and how you do business and like a lot of the ideology...

...that that started this is is waning, I'd say a little bit, because I could that trying to go for equal dish tribu should based on early participation, which is almost the hallmark of Bitcoin, or at least the beginnings of Bitcoin. It's no longer really the case. Yeah, you know, I was looking at the vanators set in cosmos, you know, the a hundred validators ranked by weight. It looked to nothing like how it looks way back when I joined, you know, or when if first went live. I couldn't recognize maybe half of the validators. You know, they were just like aut of nowhere. But apparently they were able to get the you know, the coins, you know. So yeah, really, if you have the money, you can, you can put off a lot of things still, you know, we have a long way to go in this space. I have one atom if it's on my desk. Are, yeah, about ourselves at all, like how do you? How do you see that cartel in what sensing like a SIMBILOTTEX scenario or, you know, in like more of the you know, the park manipulation, I don't know, denying transactions. It should go through the kind of thing you even worried about that. Oh you know what, that's such a good point. You know, I wanted to touch on this. So in tender men, you know, back to when I was comparing Casper and tenament. Right in tendement right now, you as a validator, sorry so to so, to put a simply, in tenement online validators are not punished if they if they try to censor the soon took go offline bet editors, they're not punished for that, but in cast where they get punished. So yeah, so you definitely could, you know, attempt to censor, not of people, you know, to make them not being able to do certain things, you know, whether it's transaction not going through and all that. It's yeah, it's definitely a problem. That's why earlier are saying that we do all these things, we call different defense techniques to prevent that happen. You know, you can't really prevent people doing that, but you what you can do, which to, you know, have a defense mechanism in case that happens. We also have to market to make sure the community knows you're not going to which could be you know. You know, the social engineering aspect in Cosmos is huge, which I think is good. You sort of have to be vocal on social media and in you know, telegram chairs and all that to just get the club. Sorry, but, you know, for the lack of a better term, but you know can probably you know knows you're better than then then I do. We have seen people literally begging for dedication on twitter, right. Oh, yeah, it's pretty it's just a crazy and they ended up ranking higher than we are. But you know, I hate but you you know, it's it's just, you know, just different. It's interesting things that you see. So let those that don't know. God, Kid. Sorry, Oh, yeah, it's like okay. So, yeah, when this occasion happened, don't get me wrong, I like I love the causemos community. It's real open. Yeah, everybody, everybody's real friendly. You know, it's unlike any other project I've seen in the last five years as far as like a community focus. Yes, sorry, not to interrupt you. Yeah, Cosmos is the most engaging community of that were seeing. Any CRYPTO projects? Yes, most where and where? And maybe like a twenty plus proof of stake type of projects, many of which are tenament based. So we're like all family, but it's such a different scenario way going to other people's communities. It's just not the same. Yeah, yeah, most definitely. And when this, when this occasion happened that Jay was referring to this this this staking provider kind of begging for things, I saw things and I was like, Oh my God, like, this is no way, this is not going to happen. You know, he fell off of the top hundred. It's just going to stay that way. But apparently, you know, the community got behind him and, you know, to care of things and again, yet he got back within hours. Yeah, the values said, and it's cool because, you know, from a community perspective, you see these people who enjoy these certain profiles in a sense, yeah, staying within them. So like, let's say, for instance, something where to happen, you know, the the it's kind of like the community gets behind these certain players. Yeah, we yes, Sorr, it's just add to that. We have no we have absolutely no issues with this particular validator or person. It's more so that, you know, it bothered us a little bit how this host situation, you know, turned out. You know, yeah,...

...most definitely. It's just it's interesting to see how communities are getting behind each other within the within Cosmos and it's which is cool. Yeah, yeah, we have we a cipher corps, has our own community. You know, the other top twenty people have their own community and it's nice to kind of see them all intertwined within the cosmos. Yeah, yeah, but, yeah, I know. One thing I will say, though, is in the long term of things, I I am not again I'm not too technical on the side of approach, but I am concerned with seeing thirty familiar vaces. Oh, yeah, that was I think colon earlier brought up a really good point. Yeah, that's really good point. You do see a lot of recycled faces in different yeah, it's all the same people, which is cross projects. I say, yeah, it's crazy. Yeah, it's as sometimes it's almost like we're in cosmos again, like it's the exact same validators sat, you know, the top guys and then, yeah, and it's not. It's not just within Timmerman in the cosmos. It's not. It's across all these protocols and you know, I was when I was in south Krio, was able to talk to some validators about this and you know, it was interesting to see the reaction of like like, did you guys not think about that? That's similar to work, but you're what you guys are doing, and it is that? Is that because, like, they could say the same thing about you? Is it because because they've already gotten all the knowhown expertise and infrastructure. There's just like well, Shit, just do all the other ones that are similar. Yeah, yeah, no doubt. Yeah, and I think honestly we're not. We're not at a phase to be too concerned about it. But you know, as these these these these chains like mature over time, it's going to be interesting to see how this plays out. You know, it really is, because at the end of the day, everybody's aiming to be decentralized. But how are you defining decentralization if you all share the same validate or set? No, it's just yeah, you know that. I think point. Yes, we're bringing up a lot we do not have. We this is a wishywashy, you know, fuzzy word decentralization and absolutely types of categories that we could consider decentralization. And where's the line between simply distributed systems and decentralized systems? And is there a line? And is the central really a word for governance, or is it it work for computing towards Rall's. That's the thing. It's like. It's got that. It's an umbrella's term that has absolutely a lack of metrics to define where are and where they are, and I think that that language is going to have to improve so if people who can make wiser infrastructure decisions when they integrate these systems into their larger enterprise, you know, architectures. Yeah, yeah, that's funny you say that calling because a couple months back I heard you throwing that around on the flagship show for the Bitcoin podcast and ever since then I'm like, man, that's that's really interesting approach. You know that you really can't, really can't throw decentralization with that really defining it to a certain aspect. And and with that being said, you know, it's we're so young at a time where we're trying to find out what is really decentralization and what really isn't. But you know, it's funny. You know how we kind of took that on and you know, on that note, well, I would say last week we were able to write up a little bit about that within the education system. So that was that was pretty fun. You know, trying to understand what decentralization in that and that would say that's yeah, and maybe it just like the word cool. The word cool is a very generic terms. Yeah, exactly, like you know, you know cool when you see it, you know, oh, that's cool. But like, it's also very personal and it has a different like what's cool to one person might not be cool to another, and so maybe, you know, to centralization is like one like the word cool and not going to go that far. I like it out. I'm not going to go that far. That's it's a Sha know what's not cool. I'll tell you what. Disagree with you. I have an idea, for we all like to attract a tremendous amount of people. Tells else platform, and if those who don't know, kids an active participant in the Bitcoin podcast, slack, I think about every day. He will post a series of memes that our another everyone has come to rely on. So maybe that's that's your country strategy for getting people that to follow all. Yeah, it's like me, ninety percent of those things are super cool. About ten percent of them are absolutely disturbing. Those dude, I just copy of pace, guys. But yeah, I know most definitely it's it's pretty fun in the slack. I definitely love the community guys have, and that's kind of what this all is about. You're just talking about this second ago. A good portion of everything we're trying to do here is build communities and signal to like get people to join those communities, to participate, and that stakings is as as seems to be what you've...

...told us. Absolutely no different here. HMM. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, it's actually a huge issue, which I call the fragmentation in communication channels in these crypto projects. As if added dated. I oftentimes have to jump between maybe like five different chats just for one project. Tell me about it, and then we have and have six something projects right, and oftentimes I would miss like a really important like upgrade, you know, Chang upgrade announcement, and what happens is, you know, I missed that announcement. I you know, I failed upgrade and we are no gets, we lose money. Yeah, somebody will make an announcement. Yeah, it go yeah, yeah, because we don't have so many different a we don't have a you know, you know, sort of like a community manager to do all that we do. I would would do everything ourselves, you know, you know so. So the margins are already pretty thin. I thought, like you can forward to hire someone on. Yeah, you know, we make barely enough to to make us to continue. Basically. Yeah, and, to be honest, as if valid it as as a human being, the more money you make, the less you care about the centralization all that. Just to be honest with you, that's just a fact. You know, yesterday when I met can, the whole time we were maybe talking about commission and all that, you know, the revenues we were able to generate. We didn't talk about essentialization at all. It just doesn't come up during your daily conversation. You know, I think that that could. That's awareness, that's a good yessness for you. I appreciate those things coming. I think those things come in through like the communities that you're involved in. It's almost like an emergent ideal that comes from the community that you're a part of, not necessarily an individualistic thing. Yeah, and I absolutely hate people talk about decentralization without any contest. You know I can. By the way, can and I we both coauthored a what I call, you know, our best article today. You know, we talked about these, we called we talked about the centralization and education provision. You know, when we talk about decentitization, you have to talk about it. Talk about it with this, you know, a subcific you know, like within a specific, you know, aspect, and then you can expand on that. You know, it by self. It really doesn't mean anything to add that to the show notes. Speaking of which, why don't we this pretty good chance to wrap up. How do people get in touch through guys and learn more? Yeah, I think our website, cipher cord dot Io, is they go to place and we have our social links on there, we have our publication links on there, we have our BIOS on there, everything on there. Yeah, you can catch me on the slack, you know, on twitter and Kenneth tweets. This is pretty pretty straightforward and everything else is everything else is, you know, reference to the website. You know, I got all personal information there and so does Jay, so if you ever need to reach out to us, we're always available. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, before we get off, is wants to see real quick that. I definitely had my what you guys do? Add the status and if lapse. Is that correct? Yeah, cooling. Thanks. Yeah, yeah, worry calling it on the labs. Yeah, yeah, I I've always wanted to study, you know, the snowball. We will just snowball, or was it? And there's there's a couple of them there kind and hard to keep track of. The class of consensus mechani is a kind of build on each other and you start out with yeah, I actually have you guys, believe, a technical paper in my eadar. I just haven't got a chance to read it. And Corey, probably when you already yeah, I was playing with, you know, the key card. Yeah, on my own. It was pretty fun. Put it's coming out soon. Yeah, what about a goals of use? It's coming out soon. How Hell is the goal? How is it going? Now as DCA going? That's great, I mean that's that's the main that's the main way to use it right now. Right now you can also use it inside, not so safe the application on Bos and android. And then, yeah, the one which should be coming out within a few weeks after the audit will also have keycard integration. So it's just one of those like multi factor authentications. Keys never leave the card. Kind of hopefully an easier way to safely manage crypto without having to, like, yeah, worry about compromises on phones and roots and stuff like that. Yeah, it's super cool. Thanks for coming on. I appreciate it.

Also, like Ken said, off towards us, like heaving us. And all right, that's fun conversation. Guys, ry, thanks very nice. Thanks, cory, thanks calling. Appreciate it.

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