Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 65 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #65 – Cypher Core – Jay Jie and Ken Trueba

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode features Jay and Ken from Cypher Core. Cypher Core offers a staking as a service platform for Proof of Stake protocols. Primarily focused on Cosmos network, we talk with them about their experience implementing their system, incentive models involved with staking services, and the overall Cosmos community.

Links:
– decentralization blog
– cyphercore.io
– Ken’s Twitter
– Jay’s Twitter

Entering work. Welcome to hashing itout, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructureand decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and howpeople build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen andlearn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Welcomeback to the show, everybody, hashing it out. I'm your host,Dr Corey. Petty Collins, the other host. Say Hello Everybody, Colin. Hello, everybody, Colin. Yeah, simple, factive, effective. Today'sepisode we're going to talk to Cipher Corp. We have Ken and Jwith us when I shall start by introducing yourselves and letting US know how yougot into the space. Jay, you first. Yeah, so my nameis Jay. By Day and the CTUS, as you was we are a blockchainplatform. Sorry, we're a education system on blockchain and by night,I'm the founder and Sto as every core so, cipher court is a stakingservice provider. Found it in two thousand and seventeen in steady of valley.Starting out it was just me on can and later aren't we brought on artas the lead death and Jason as the advisor and Leean and Andy as thewriters. By the way, we have our detailed individual bio on our site, so few free to check it out. So we sort of got into thisproof of stake valudation service business after a meeting I had with Chando.She was the head of communications at a Costmos at the time, so wesort of shared insights regarding costmos ambitions and, you know, technical details. Fromthere we decided to join their test nap and ultimately we realized how hugestaking was set out to be, with potential use cases such as, youknow, defy, etc. Etc. And then we participated in game ofstakes. It's, you know, basically an incentivized the battle of notes,and we were awarded with some tokens for solid performance, I guess. Andover time we just opened up our staking service two more platforms, such asWayne, Chang Ristnat leano network, and here we are today. Trey,what about your by guys? Can I started out on the CEOS? Istarted in the block chain space, I would say, around two zero.Was In sixteen, just more so as a writer. I was an enthusiastthroughout, like my high school days, but that was like two thousand andtwelve, two thousand and thirteen. As a kid, you know, you'renot really going to take much too seriously. So you know, I was ableto end like dive in and out of things but then really get pickedit up in two thousand and sixteen as like just doing little writing blogs andthen English translation for Cork Chains White Paper, which was pretty cool, you know. So that was a good experience initially. After that I was contactedby j about cider corps and then we kind of just picked up things fromthere and you know, that's kind of the back story as far as likehow I got involved with blockchain space and whatnot. It's kind of interesting becauseit seems as though most of the staking service services as exists now, orstaking platforms or blockchain systems that require staking, or more like traditional ppft staking mechanisms, and like what is what is the like the business case for runningstaking services for these type of networks? Yeah, I have this analogy Ireally like, but you know, some don't. So it's pretty similar to, you know, banks. You put your money in, you know banks, and you you are an interest, and then it's the same thing withstaking. You know, you put your coins, not our hands, butnot not quite, because we don't actually not have access to your coins,but you sort of just bomb your coins with us and then you are interestand it so at the right now I think you're looking at about ten percentstaking return percentage in cosmos, maybe a little bit more than that. Soyou know, it's definitely a lot higher than, you know, what bankgives you. So there's definitely, you know, incentive in in that aboutfor you guys like how Y'all? How do y'all? How Y'ALL DIV youthat out? How to decide, how to do it right? How itputs the infrastructure light for providing these types...

...of services. Yes, so infrastructure. So we designed our infrastructure based on, you know, many different ways youcan attack a note. So there are a number of ten ways youcan do it, with the most obvious one being, you know, Ddos attacks. So tendement being an entirely deterministic, constantus protocol, allows anote to be targeted Ford dos attacks, where the notes Ip address and itsRest Api port becomes vulnerable. So what Typically Heavens next is that the communicationbetween notes can be halted and it autimately leads to blocks not being committed.So to mitigate this, the very problem, many of us, you know,many of us Cosmos of edators, implement a what we call century notearchitecture. It's insentially and infrastructure design for the DOWSETTAG mitigation. So the wholeidea is that while you have your validator node or notes in a data center, you also deploy multiple distributed notes, you know, the central nodes,in a cloud environment. So if your validator no, that did get attacked, your central notes could be, you know, quickly set up and integrateit into the transaction flow. Is Sort of just diverges the transactions going intothe validator node or notes. So not only does this help with scaling,it also makes makes it harder to make an impact on the validator node.And on top of that, we also implemented techniques that prevent the keys frombeing compromised to help secure the trusted links between nodes and lots been the least, you know, techniques that help us stay on top of the security patchesin tenderment as well as in Cosmos S DK. So yeah, that's prettymuch it. What what guests worries me, ECS. That makes a lot ofyes, in terms of yeah, a kind of a staking system thatdoesn't have a tremendous amount of stakers in a network. As the network growsand the number of participants grow, that the number validators doesn't really grow.But so what did it happening? Because you have the same amount of validatorsjust getting bonded to more and more often, similar to what your services you youknow, you know what. You're absolutely right. So, you know, I thought we could have talked about, you know, in a how profitableor sustainable this staking business really is, right. Yeah, so, yeah, you know, you absolutely right there. So if you look atCosmos Right, right now, you're looking at about thirty five, thirty fourvalidators that are charging a commission of a ten percent, and the current priceof Adam is, I believe, three dollars and eleven cents or something likethat, and the stake near return percentage for now per year as around tenpercent. So imagine you have a small team like us, to developers.Why? You IU act person, went marketing person and one operation person.Such a team needs at least the three hundred K in revenue per year.That's extremely low in the bay. But you know, just pathetically speaking right. So hundred K revenue per year. That translates to roughly thirty million dollarsworth of Adam dedicated to your validator. So in Tokens that's roughly, Ibelieve, night point six million atoms if you run it down. So ifyou look at the weights distribution in the current validators set in cosmos, onlythe top four validators actually meet the minimum requirement for out of the hundred.Okay. So, of course this just estimate in a guest ament, notscience. And the higher the price, I mean the higher the token price, the more profit vo it's going to be for the validators. Or youcan simply just raise your, you know, commission rate. But you know,just for the sake of this discussion, let's say you raise your commission ratefront ten percent to twenty percent and we're sticking to the three hundred krevenue estimate and the ten percent staking return percentage, you would need a roughlyfour point eight million Adams staked to your validator. That unfortunately only includes topnine validators at the current token price, not even the ten. So youknow. And finally, to make so to make half of the hundred validatorsprofitable in this particular scenario, you would need the price of Adam to betwenty dollars while charging at twenty percent commission.

That's a lot, a lot higherthan than what we're seeing today. So you know. So by nowyou probably already figured out that we, as a cipher core currently ranked atnumber seventy. We will be losing money running the business if we had noother revenue streams. So it's you know, it's definitely not an easy business gettingthe getting the commission and rewards from your notes alone. It's definitely notenough to cover your operational cost. Now I was thinking about that in turnand and up when I look at even other staking is it you think it'sgoing to be better for staking systems like at two, where you have alot more steakers and they're more, I'd say, individualized? I think itdepends to get just you know, give you an example on when chain theirgalaxy constensus mechanism. It's entirely randomized. Maybe not entirely, but you know, much better. Not Better, you know, sorry, just different protocol. So in Wine Chang you know, say you have vtedators, whether ita and about it to be a holding. are a thousand coins and be holdinghundred K coins. Over long term, these two guys will be getting roughlythe same amount of rewards or return because the protocol is rand a knife. So the possibility of you getting selected as as a blog producer, asyou know, roughly the same long term for anybody. But in Cosmos,you know, in a deterministic consensus protocol like a Tenement, you do havethat. You know, the rich tends to get richer that problem and youknow we as a smaller fish in a sea, we definitely they suffer fromthat. You know, we do a lot of things. You know,we do a publication, we do side of projects, you know, opensource, what I call community projects, to you know, to generate youknow, whether it's cloud or, you know, just the chip, togenerate revenue. And we also do, you know, contracted works, youknow, development and we do consulting to you know what you know. Youdefinitely have to just to explore and generate other revenue streams. Otherwise I thinka lot of these, you know, smaller guys would be out of businesssoon, you know, and by the way, you know the bigger guys, such as coin base, is coming in too. So you know,the exchanges. So, yeah, it's actually SOS tough. Brought up tome recently. I don't know much about tenements. Slap sorryness staking mechanism,I was told, is actually kind of shockingly similar to what we're developing atthe company our for Oh yeah, and yeah, we independently have a lotof similarities and have the same but you know, one thing we're trying toavoid, as idea of like staking, hyperinfron inflation and people just being ableto like constantly accumulate. Yeah, yeah, tell me a little more about likewhat's going on with the tenement ecosystem. Mistaking in the rich get richer problemyou brought up earlier. Yeah, you know, the staking, soin so the inflation, as you can see, as two ways, right. The most so as a validator. That's really what generates the rewards andthe commissions for us and it's crucial, definitely in the ecosystem. It issort of functions, as you know, the mechanism to incentivize all the dedicatorsand the validators. It drives the whole ecosystem. I so, the richget richer problem. I so I haven't seeing a solution just yet. Youknow, I've been studying different the consensus pottle cause throughout the years. Idon't think there's solutions just you, but I think it to mitting it thisproblem. A solution I like or, you know, a Protoco I likeis harmony, where they have this sort of they have this regulation like typeof mechanism where if you stick too much you get punished and the for smallerguys, if you stick not like too much, but the protocols sort ofthey it bumps you up. So you have this so sort of regulated azone that to keep the staking weight distribution sort of balanced. I'm not anexpert in that, but I do think...

...it's, you know, a slideyou better solution to prevent, you know, the problem you just mentioned and tenderment. I've seen actually projects attempting to make a tendement entirely randomized. YouI think there's this product, sorry, project out of Korea. They're workinglike and sort of integrating the I believe it was VDF. I think theyborrowed the concept from algoriant and they wanted to sort of include, incorporate thatinto tenderment. And and I'm also in talk with this project called state box, not in top but you know, I'm good friends with their founders.So they're working on something really interesting. They are working on sort of utilizingthe I believe there was this competition and Amazon there. I think they're designingsome type of chips to make different constantus protocols and entirely randomknize. So thatwould solve a problem where, you know, these days the most constantus protocols arewritten by software developers, assuming how the hardware works right. So oftentimeswhen you simulate your algorithms the ship, it's not really computationally credical. Soyou know, I definitely seek different attempts in this field, but just tendermen. I think this specific problem, I wouldn't even call it an issue. I think it was a tradeoff they made. You know, it's verymuch a very simplified tradition of ppft model. At the key the key concept intendthem is it simplifies the view change step, you know, during theprotocol. I'm sure you have more. You know, you're properly a youknow better, you know, expert, and I am not so so I'mhave to speed on that personally. So yeah, yeah, and and andand you know you have other you know many protocols. You know, youhave a casper, you have all the other ones, and you know Casperis in many ways the the exact opposite to tendement. In tendement we favorsafety over liveness and Casper is the eggaxact opposite. They if they were abit ability over you know, safety. So they think that intender men,it's a huge problem. where, if at? If, at any givencheckpoint, you know, if less than two thirds of the votes are received, the chain can stopp tempor earily kind of halt. It could be aproblem. You know, it has happened in before, I believe. Ibelieve it halted and exchange in the past. You know it. You know itcould be a problem, but you know, like I said, it'smore of a tradeoff rather than a you know, flaw, you might say, actual actual chainnel stop making progress until all although yeah, are until soit will go to you know, different rounds, are steps until enough votesare received. Yeah, it's kind of a tradeoff. I'm kind of curious, like the infrastructure cost that you mentioned earlier. Yeah, you know.I will give you just one example. You understand, the power strip.We use just one power strip. If six hundred. Yeah, so likethat, that limits the availability of people who can who can participate in thistype of thing. To you, I hear you your yeah, you're absolutelyright. There it gets expensive. You know, I live in moment viewright. I live within two miles from Google headquarters. I pay our rap, but my servert costs are way more than that, way more than whenpain rap. So what is the so I actually don't understand why you needthat much like power to do staking. That's kind of like the advertised benefitof staking, right. You don't need to maintain. You're absolutely right,and especially in bft based the notes, bft based protocols. You're absolutely right. You know, the availability is not a huge issue. You know,by the way. I'm looking at the DASHWOOD I we have for costmos Arisnow or whatever. You know, all the tenement based chains. If youlook at the CP usage, it's constantly below like ten percent, maybe fifteenpercent Max, and we're using maybe a top of the line, you know, hardware's we don't need that much power...

...and it's definitely an overkill for now. But you're seeing one more projects that I sort of require the top offlinehardware. I we recently joined this project, Leno Network. They're based on Tenementas well. They're actually one of the early adopters of tenement. WhileI was compiling, you know, the note and everything, I would getpanic errors. It turned out that you will need at least thirty two gigabytesof we am available at all times just to a in a compile the node, which which really hit me as a surprise because for when I started outfor costmos or everys. Now, you know the early projects, sixteen gigabyteswas the recommended, recommend you know, configuration for a service. But nowyou know you're looking at thirty two and you know a ton of disk space. You know it gets philled up really quickly and you know. But toanswer a question, do we need to know? But you sort of it'sjust a thing that you might as well do it in the beginning. Soand a safe to trouble later own migrator infrastructure right. Also, there asan aspect of like redundancy, so like if one of your machinetes goes offline, you know, be penalized and the proof of stake algorhythms that will thatwill that will punish you for, yeah, not being available yeah, just juston that topic. I sort of want to touch on this, anothersort of topic. So I think most of validators they just weren't a singleabout it it or set up. But we don't. We actually want twothat it set up. So one is actively signing, one is on standby. And then we implemented our own. We implemented raft. I'm pretty sureyou guys have heard of it. You know, it really simple constensus mechanismand docer actually implements that. So we implemented raft between our two of outa dinner notes. So at any given time only when no will be signing. But if that no got, you know, ticking down or something happenedto it, the other know where, you know, comes in. Youknow basically took it over and you know that's just extra cost. But youknow, as you climb up the ladder, you know with more steak in yourvaluator you did. It's just it becomes a must to invest, youknow, a huge amount of money infrastructure and apparently nowadays, when when youknow the investors in the dedicators, when they do in their due diligence,the security of your instructure is probably the number one thing that they look into. You know, they some. I've had people asking me for a securityreport on my infrastructure. I didn't. I didn't disclose it, but youknow, I thought that was interesting because, you know, I didn't know peoplewould have value always security of that much right. I mean they should. I just had no idea they would. You know, that's think. Idon't know, that might be that that that carries over from a traditionalsecurity infrastructure. But yeah, that's just one of those situations. Were likeif most of the times and traditional web security, you're assuming that those nodesand your infrastructure is holding valuable personal data, Pii of things more off than not, and these taking mechanisms. So I think that's valuable. Inside thenode really is just the keys that that need to sign things and how youhow well you secure those. You didn't really hold it. More often thannot you're not holding the II of anybody's customer information anything like that, butaccess to those things and access to those keys could meet could be incredibly detrimentalif that's not done properly. Yeah, yeah, so in Cosmos, theworst thing that could happen to your value your notes, you know it is, of course your note got attack and somehow, you know, the Hackergot access to your keys and stuff. You would you only lose your coinsin your own accounts, you know, or account but they could make adouble sign where which can dates two you getting slashed, you know. Butif that way, your dedicated will stake. But you know, technically we're not. We don't have access to your coins, to you, and Iwant to make it clear that your coins are not in our custody if youstick, you know, with us. Yeah, we. Yeah, yeah, that's just because different protocols have different, you know, implementations. We've hadF this project, which were joined the two years ago. They theystore your privact key in a configuration of file and just they just left itlike that between so, yeah, yeah,...

...yeah, and and and and andI could we have this telegram bought in our telegram channel. You couldactually sort of fetch that information through, through through like, you know,if you has and stuff. It was just, it was a disaster.And, to make it worse, I was talking to Kenna about yesterday.We I joined this project two years ago and today I've made it grows revenueof twenty nine thought. Twenty nine exactly. Yeah, that's that's that's yeah,so you know, it's it's a tough business. That's after overhead,though, right, so you are making money. It's that correct. Butno, no, no, no, that that's no, no, that'sjust lost some money on this. Twenty nine. Know Ass, yes,crazy, crazy, yeah, so we're do you like? It's not ourportfolio. It's just one of the side projects that he was working. Yeah, yeah, yes, wanted to get that cleared up. And so wheredo you see? Where do you see this going? Because it seems asthough, at least under current prefer stake systems, every day Joe's aren't goingto be participating very much because of the infrastructure costs and know how of runninga lot of the stuff, like safely available, like available and secure.How do you see proof of stake networks growing more and more? It's it'sjust going to be a bunch of businesses. There's is it going to be okay? Yeah, de Mackerties, to actually people being able to do thisat home. I can do it, but I have more know how inthis stuff than most people. Yeah, you definitely can. As a matterof fact, we started out running a costinalne on my respberry Pie, youknow, you know, right just right next to me. Unfortunately, Ibelieve after a few builds they stopped supporting arm or arm architecture. So wecouldn't do that. But you know, so long term, I think steakingservice, you know, like us, we will not, we would notbe sustainable if you didn't have any other revenue streams. It's just not goingto be possible, especially with the more and more projects, like I said, going fully randomized, right, so you have more people joining in andyou know you only have that much of a pot and you have to divideit with so many people and I don't think the staking rewards are meant tobe. You know, making a business sustainable you have to sort of giveup your own business strategies and all that to make yourself profitable and sustainable.So, you know, that's just my take on it. We're actively seekingother means. You know, we, we, we, we were lookingfor funding. We were looking for other, you know, ways just to geta revenue. You know, we're only so practically. You know,Cepheral court is not, you know, as many others, we're not funded. Everything we do is out of our own pockets. You know, wedefinitely enjoy that. You know, we don't have a boss that tells uswhat to do and what not to do, you know. But what sucks aboutis we just don't have the capital too you know, sort of maneuverthis space, as you know, as as you know, as we youknow, as we would like. But, you know, overall we're pretty comfortablewith where we're today. But that's not to say we won't be,you know, not continue to work hard, I know, expand the business.But yeah, I see most steak in calm last sort of devil intothis. You know, try to think. Yeah, I think I was cuttingout there. Yeah, there, you kind of yeah. So justkind of a hit on what Jay was saying. I think right now,being that we're such a like an expre mirror, excuse me, experimental phasewith the staking space, all these projects are so young. You know,a lot of the the projects don't have a lot of value to them asfar as like they're token and like the return on interest things. That's notlike that. So I'm seeing kind of staking service providers enter the space initiallyjust to really get that brand going, you know, like you, Hey, you want to be a staking service provider. You know, just tokind of get things recognized in the space and then kind of branch out,like because we're seeing people like hey, now, now we want to buildlike a deck. So are we want to start being consultants? Are Wewant to do this? It's just it's...

...more so of kind of getting yourfoot in the space to kind of build that brand essentially for later ambitions,and I think it's pretty cool. You know. I maybe in the longterm you might see some people just like solely focused on staking, but Ithink right now, like being that we're so young in the space. Imean I don't see it being very profitable at this pace, but but youknow, long term, I definitely think it's a good way to kind ofget things going if your interest is in the proof of stake space. Soit's kind of funny, did you put it that way, because I seeit almost similar to what mining was back in the day, like it wasn'tthat profitable from a home experience, but you gained a lot of know howin the process of doing it. You learned how things worked, you thenfigured out where other business opportunities could be. It's almost like advanced hoddling because,yeah, not only are you're like accumulating money or accumulating whatever networks tokenyou're doing, which could potentially be profitable later on down the line. Assumingthat that like that, I guess the popularity of the token rises in thevalue rises with it, but you get a tremendous amount of know how andat the same time, you signal that you're interested in this coin, ofparticipating in at network and helping it thrive. But like doing the thing alone probablyisn't going to sustain you unless you're one of the top big time players, at least how things are currently implemented. That seems to be what you've bothset up. Set Up. Yeah, and yeah, it's pretty cool because, you know, coming into this I wasn't really the most technical,that I didn't come from a technical background, but being able to work with jailthis the kind of learn things as we go. I've been able to, you know, expand my own knowledge base like tenfold, kind of getthings going on and it's just it's exciting to constantly be learning. You knowwhat these projects are doing, you know how they can be implemented later onin the future and yeah, it just, like I said, it's a greatopportunity to initially build out that business interest. Yeah, just add tothe you know, the infrastructure costs is more than just your nodes. Forexample, when we do we do that when we we were when we weredeveloping our chorus explorer, we had to keep the service running just for,you know, the back end database and then, you know, the frontand the client and you have to keep them the node running just for theexplorer. And on top of that we also give out other projects. Youknow, we give up this coin, you know, Fossl, for reachingnetwork. So you know, you have all these, you know, sortof hidden costs that people don't see. You know, we have to keepthe service running for a different purposes. It really adds up, though.I personally know quite a few validators in the customer system that they use extremelycheap you know, just a cloud, you know, those like what's theword digitaliztion droplets, like the little ones? Yeah, yeah, yeah, andthose ones. You can actually get by with those quite comfortably right now. I'm you know, I don't know how long that would last, butyou know, you can actually get by. I can earn pretty good money ifyou charge like, you know, say fifteen, twenty percent, commission. With a little bit of you know, dedication from the foundation, you know, we can earn pretty good, pretty good money. I believe there'sone a validator in the cosmos, a validators set that charges a hundred percent, commission. Ye See, yeah, that means and and they I thinkI wing playing. You know, I was doing the math. They weremaking thousands of really know just stallars. Yeah, a month with with mostlydelegations from the foundation, not from dedicators. But you know, that's good moneybecause they charge a hundred percent. They don't, they don't share thePie. Yeah, that only work. They do that work a small though. Date. They have a really interesting like way of doing things. Theythey do this thing called Rebay. So if you dedicate to them at theend of the two month, they have this like they this like automated thingthat sort of kicks you back like, you know, a certain percentage,like the more you stay with them, the high percentage it is, youknow, but I've I I don't exactly know how that works, but Ithought that was like it was a really interesting marketing strategy. But, youknow, a hundred percent, commission it was just, you know, somethingelse. But you know, it also it also makes you stand out amongst, you know, all the validators with most value. validators charging ten percent, some even you know, some people charge zero percent. They take nothing, they only take the be take the rewards, but they don't take thecommission. So that makes you wonder, you know, how is it?How could it be profitable for those people?...

Right, if they take none,just they only take the the rewards, which is very minimum, you know, Comparis to you all. It's for signaling purposes, I'd imagine.Yeah, yeah, and, as a matter of fact, the biggest validatorin cosmos. You can look it up. I'm not going to just close thename. They were running a zero percent commission for the longest time andyou know, it caused a lot of drama discussions in the ecosystem, butsomehow their delegation count only went up, so they had to be doing somethingright, right. So, you know, yeah, there's a lot of whatI call so true engineering behind this. It's way more than just doing whatpeople can see. It's more more so. You know, what peoplecan see, but you know that influences, yeah, to and and it reallyit really sucks to because you know from a PLA as a community perspective. You see these people like they see something that's zero percent and you knowthey don't know what the like, I would say, the fair market valueof what a delegation commission should be. So when they see that, Yesaid, they see our ten percent, I mean in everyday retail, youknow, zero percent and ten percent, that's a huge difference. So they'regoing to go to zero percent all day long and it kind of sucks because, you know, we see these people who were individual staking service providers likekind of fall out because they can't keep up with that type of aggressive marketing. And you know, it's just it sucks because, you know, aswe grow, different staking service providers also need to kind of come together onidentifying, what's say, a palatable commission rate for other delegators in a longterm. So it's just, yeah, mistakenly, hopefully we mistaking. Pricesare a market in themselves and since they like you have a group of peopletrying to incentivize the community to bond tokens to you so you can gain moremore revenue on the process of doing it and have, I mean potent dependingon the network, governance power and voting and yeah, exactly that has like. Yeah, people played whatever tactics that are possible. It's very similar tomining pools and in terms of how they POW. You know, you're absolutelyright. As a matter of fact, I'm seeing more projects that that's basedon proof of stake, but they require gpus. That makes me. Thatreally just doesn't, you know, sit sit with me. That will itgoes back to the mining problem. Right. If you're A, you know,richer guy, you have more. You know, you definitely can,you can acquire more GP use. It only makes the problem worse, especiallylong term. You know, it's it's I just don't get why people woulddo that. If you're if you're claiming a decentralized you know, what wecall defy, and then you're putting gpus in the picture. It just doesn'tsit with so well with me. And it also limits our ability to expandin our service to other platforms, because we know we don't really have ayou know, we don't have as big of a capital as you know alot of this, you know, VC's or funds. You know, ifso, we couldn't we couldn't enjoin. You know, you know, theGPU type of projects, even if we wanted to, because we just don'thave the capital. So so, like I said, the staking industry isway more than just, you know, you know what we said, runningnotes and I'm actually seeing more projects going the old mining route, you know, talking deals with the bigger guys, and I've personally know people who are, you know, the bigger names. They got offered a spot, youknow, in different projects. So so high works is. You know,maybe you don't have to join our test net. We would just give youthe points once are you know, once we go, being that you getthe coin. So you put up a votiator, you're good to go.You know. So how that so? How is that fair? You know, it's all behind the closed doors, but you know, it's just howpeople do business. It seems as though that's that's it. Almost one ofthose situations where as this entire industry has grown and brought on, I guess, more traditional business folk in terms of it reached the level of the legitimacywhere correct people from the from the from the rest of the world that it'ssigning on to it, and with that came traditional deals and how you dobusiness and like a lot of the ideology...

...that that started this is is waning, I'd say a little bit, because I could that trying to go forequal dish tribu should based on early participation, which is almost the hallmark of Bitcoin, or at least the beginnings of Bitcoin. It's no longer really thecase. Yeah, you know, I was looking at the vanators set incosmos, you know, the a hundred validators ranked by weight. It lookedto nothing like how it looks way back when I joined, you know,or when if first went live. I couldn't recognize maybe half of the validators. You know, they were just like aut of nowhere. But apparently theywere able to get the you know, the coins, you know. Soyeah, really, if you have the money, you can, you canput off a lot of things still, you know, we have a longway to go in this space. I have one atom if it's on mydesk. Are, yeah, about ourselves at all, like how do you? How do you see that cartel in what sensing like a SIMBILOTTEX scenario or, you know, in like more of the you know, the park manipulation, I don't know, denying transactions. It should go through the kind ofthing you even worried about that. Oh you know what, that's such agood point. You know, I wanted to touch on this. So intender men, you know, back to when I was comparing Casper and tenament. Right in tendement right now, you as a validator, sorry so toso, to put a simply, in tenement online validators are not punished ifthey if they try to censor the soon took go offline bet editors, they'renot punished for that, but in cast where they get punished. So yeah, so you definitely could, you know, attempt to censor, not of people, you know, to make them not being able to do certain things, you know, whether it's transaction not going through and all that. It'syeah, it's definitely a problem. That's why earlier are saying that we doall these things, we call different defense techniques to prevent that happen. Youknow, you can't really prevent people doing that, but you what you cando, which to, you know, have a defense mechanism in case thathappens. We also have to market to make sure the community knows you're notgoing to which could be you know. You know, the social engineering aspectin Cosmos is huge, which I think is good. You sort of haveto be vocal on social media and in you know, telegram chairs and allthat to just get the club. Sorry, but, you know, for thelack of a better term, but you know can probably you know knowsyou're better than then then I do. We have seen people literally begging fordedication on twitter, right. Oh, yeah, it's pretty it's just acrazy and they ended up ranking higher than we are. But you know,I hate but you you know, it's it's just, you know, justdifferent. It's interesting things that you see. So let those that don't know.God, Kid. Sorry, Oh, yeah, it's like okay. So, yeah, when this occasion happened, don't get me wrong, I likeI love the causemos community. It's real open. Yeah, everybody,everybody's real friendly. You know, it's unlike any other project I've seen inthe last five years as far as like a community focus. Yes, sorry, not to interrupt you. Yeah, Cosmos is the most engaging community ofthat were seeing. Any CRYPTO projects? Yes, most where and where?And maybe like a twenty plus proof of stake type of projects, many ofwhich are tenament based. So we're like all family, but it's such adifferent scenario way going to other people's communities. It's just not the same. Yeah, yeah, most definitely. And when this, when this occasion happenedthat Jay was referring to this this this staking provider kind of begging for things, I saw things and I was like, Oh my God, like, thisis no way, this is not going to happen. You know,he fell off of the top hundred. It's just going to stay that way. But apparently, you know, the community got behind him and, youknow, to care of things and again, yet he got back within hours.Yeah, the values said, and it's cool because, you know,from a community perspective, you see these people who enjoy these certain profiles ina sense, yeah, staying within them. So like, let's say, forinstance, something where to happen, you know, the the it's kindof like the community gets behind these certain players. Yeah, we yes,Sorr, it's just add to that. We have no we have absolutely noissues with this particular validator or person. It's more so that, you know, it bothered us a little bit how this host situation, you know,turned out. You know, yeah,...

...most definitely. It's just it's interestingto see how communities are getting behind each other within the within Cosmos and it'swhich is cool. Yeah, yeah, we have we a cipher corps,has our own community. You know, the other top twenty people have theirown community and it's nice to kind of see them all intertwined within the cosmos. Yeah, yeah, but, yeah, I know. One thing I willsay, though, is in the long term of things, I Iam not again I'm not too technical on the side of approach, but Iam concerned with seeing thirty familiar vaces. Oh, yeah, that was Ithink colon earlier brought up a really good point. Yeah, that's really goodpoint. You do see a lot of recycled faces in different yeah, it'sall the same people, which is cross projects. I say, yeah,it's crazy. Yeah, it's as sometimes it's almost like we're in cosmos again, like it's the exact same validators sat, you know, the top guys andthen, yeah, and it's not. It's not just within Timmerman in thecosmos. It's not. It's across all these protocols and you know,I was when I was in south Krio, was able to talk to some validatorsabout this and you know, it was interesting to see the reaction oflike like, did you guys not think about that? That's similar to work, but you're what you guys are doing, and it is that? Is thatbecause, like, they could say the same thing about you? Isit because because they've already gotten all the knowhown expertise and infrastructure. There's justlike well, Shit, just do all the other ones that are similar.Yeah, yeah, no doubt. Yeah, and I think honestly we're not.We're not at a phase to be too concerned about it. But youknow, as these these these these chains like mature over time, it's goingto be interesting to see how this plays out. You know, it reallyis, because at the end of the day, everybody's aiming to be decentralized. But how are you defining decentralization if you all share the same validate orset? No, it's just yeah, you know that. I think point. Yes, we're bringing up a lot we do not have. We thisis a wishywashy, you know, fuzzy word decentralization and absolutely types of categoriesthat we could consider decentralization. And where's the line between simply distributed systems anddecentralized systems? And is there a line? And is the central really a wordfor governance, or is it it work for computing towards Rall's. That'sthe thing. It's like. It's got that. It's an umbrella's term thathas absolutely a lack of metrics to define where are and where they are,and I think that that language is going to have to improve so if peoplewho can make wiser infrastructure decisions when they integrate these systems into their larger enterprise, you know, architectures. Yeah, yeah, that's funny you say thatcalling because a couple months back I heard you throwing that around on the flagshipshow for the Bitcoin podcast and ever since then I'm like, man, that'sthat's really interesting approach. You know that you really can't, really can't throwdecentralization with that really defining it to a certain aspect. And and with thatbeing said, you know, it's we're so young at a time where we'retrying to find out what is really decentralization and what really isn't. But youknow, it's funny. You know how we kind of took that on andyou know, on that note, well, I would say last week we wereable to write up a little bit about that within the education system.So that was that was pretty fun. You know, trying to understand whatdecentralization in that and that would say that's yeah, and maybe it just likethe word cool. The word cool is a very generic terms. Yeah,exactly, like you know, you know cool when you see it, youknow, oh, that's cool. But like, it's also very personal andit has a different like what's cool to one person might not be cool toanother, and so maybe, you know, to centralization is like one like theword cool and not going to go that far. I like it out. I'm not going to go that far. That's it's a Sha know what's notcool. I'll tell you what. Disagree with you. I have anidea, for we all like to attract a tremendous amount of people. Tellselse platform, and if those who don't know, kids an active participant inthe Bitcoin podcast, slack, I think about every day. He will posta series of memes that our another everyone has come to rely on. Somaybe that's that's your country strategy for getting people that to follow all. Yeah, it's like me, ninety percent of those things are super cool. Aboutten percent of them are absolutely disturbing. Those dude, I just copy ofpace, guys. But yeah, I know most definitely it's it's pretty funin the slack. I definitely love the community guys have, and that's kindof what this all is about. You're just talking about this second ago.A good portion of everything we're trying to do here is build communities and signalto like get people to join those communities, to participate, and that stakings isas as seems to be what you've...

...told us. Absolutely no different here. HMM. Yeah, that's a good point. You know, it's actuallya huge issue, which I call the fragmentation in communication channels in these cryptoprojects. As if added dated. I oftentimes have to jump between maybe likefive different chats just for one project. Tell me about it, and thenwe have and have six something projects right, and oftentimes I would miss like areally important like upgrade, you know, Chang upgrade announcement, and what happensis, you know, I missed that announcement. I you know,I failed upgrade and we are no gets, we lose money. Yeah, somebodywill make an announcement. Yeah, it go yeah, yeah, becausewe don't have so many different a we don't have a you know, youknow, sort of like a community manager to do all that we do.I would would do everything ourselves, you know, you know so. Sothe margins are already pretty thin. I thought, like you can forward tohire someone on. Yeah, you know, we make barely enough to to makeus to continue. Basically. Yeah, and, to be honest, asif valid it as as a human being, the more money you make, the less you care about the centralization all that. Just to be honestwith you, that's just a fact. You know, yesterday when I metcan, the whole time we were maybe talking about commission and all that,you know, the revenues we were able to generate. We didn't talk aboutessentialization at all. It just doesn't come up during your daily conversation. Youknow, I think that that could. That's awareness, that's a good yessnessfor you. I appreciate those things coming. I think those things come in throughlike the communities that you're involved in. It's almost like an emergent ideal thatcomes from the community that you're a part of, not necessarily an individualisticthing. Yeah, and I absolutely hate people talk about decentralization without any contest. You know I can. By the way, can and I we bothcoauthored a what I call, you know, our best article today. You know, we talked about these, we called we talked about the centralization andeducation provision. You know, when we talk about decentitization, you have totalk about it. Talk about it with this, you know, a subcificyou know, like within a specific, you know, aspect, and thenyou can expand on that. You know, it by self. It really doesn'tmean anything to add that to the show notes. Speaking of which,why don't we this pretty good chance to wrap up. How do people getin touch through guys and learn more? Yeah, I think our website,cipher cord dot Io, is they go to place and we have our sociallinks on there, we have our publication links on there, we have ourBIOS on there, everything on there. Yeah, you can catch me onthe slack, you know, on twitter and Kenneth tweets. This is prettypretty straightforward and everything else is everything else is, you know, reference tothe website. You know, I got all personal information there and so doesJay, so if you ever need to reach out to us, we're alwaysavailable. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah, before we get off, is wantsto see real quick that. I definitely had my what you guys do?Add the status and if lapse. Is that correct? Yeah, cooling.Thanks. Yeah, yeah, worry calling it on the labs. Yeah,yeah, I I've always wanted to study, you know, the snowball. Wewill just snowball, or was it? And there's there's a couple of themthere kind and hard to keep track of. The class of consensus mechaniis a kind of build on each other and you start out with yeah,I actually have you guys, believe, a technical paper in my eadar.I just haven't got a chance to read it. And Corey, probably whenyou already yeah, I was playing with, you know, the key card.Yeah, on my own. It was pretty fun. Put it's comingout soon. Yeah, what about a goals of use? It's coming outsoon. How Hell is the goal? How is it going? Now asDCA going? That's great, I mean that's that's the main that's the mainway to use it right now. Right now you can also use it inside, not so safe the application on Bos and android. And then, yeah, the one which should be coming out within a few weeks after the auditwill also have keycard integration. So it's just one of those like multi factorauthentications. Keys never leave the card. Kind of hopefully an easier way tosafely manage crypto without having to, like, yeah, worry about compromises on phonesand roots and stuff like that. Yeah, it's super cool. Thanksfor coming on. I appreciate it.

Also, like Ken said, offtowards us, like heaving us. And all right, that's fun conversation.Guys, ry, thanks very nice. Thanks, cory, thanks calling.Appreciate it.

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