Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 72 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #72-Althea-Jehan Tremback

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Althea is a system that lets routers pay each other for bandwidth. This allows people to set up decentralized ISPs in their communities. In an Althea network, instead of one ISP at the top collecting monthly payments, many different people can earn money by expanding and strengthening the network.

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Its work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Everybody, welcome back to the show. As always, I'm your host to Hasht out. Dr Cory Petty. Colin cannot make it today, so it's just going to be me, and today we have Johans turned back at the CEO of Al Sayah. Can you want to do the normal thing and tell us kind of how you got introduced into the space and we can then start talking about what Alf he is and what problem that solves? I got into the crypto space and I guess maybe like two thousand and fourteen, I would I was friend with with Jack and Palmer, with ill am, who invented doge point, and then I was also, you know, I was getting to Lightcoin as well. I may feel like coiner. The first trip offerrency I bought, but also during that time he theorium was was starting until I found it there and very interesting because I felt at that time there had I've been I've been following the Cryptocene for a while and there I've been a lot of talk in in the Bitcoin community about like how exciting it was a bitcoin script and stuff like that. But then etherium was actually like a project that was like directly. I thought that was the most interesting part, is the scriptability and theoreum was actually directly making that an explicit goal. So I really got into it a lot more, you know, when Heim came out. So yeah, what's your background? Where you from before this? Yeah, so I I've been a programmer for they around eight years. I study industrial design and dropped out to to learn our program and like two thousand and twelve, two thousand and eleven, and I during that time mostly been doing a work for for a startups and I also did a bunch of like consulting stuff, so full stack development. So it's kind of Ba background then. How did you come in there kind and also, oh, yeah, so I was like twel see. Also I've been involved in hacker space for a long time and noise bridge in service Toisco, and then also pseudo room in Oakland, and there was a group at Suder room called Pudo match, who are working on setting up a mess network in Oakland, and that's how I got introduced to networking and mess network stuff like that. Or I got the idea to try to combine that with scriptocurrency. So what's the like? What's the what's the problem I think you're trying to solve with ELSIEA? Like? What? where? Why would you even try to make a solution? What do you like? Where is the issue? That currently doesn't seem to be working very well? Well, currently, Internet access is not great. I mean all over the world and also even the United States, most people have under twenty five Nigga its per second access, and then often it's also low quality or it's kind of body speed. My go down during prime time and stuff. And a lot of that do to the fact that it takes a lot of capital and a lot of capital and coordination to to build out a network that's that's delivering Internet to consumers and with you...

...know, so in as of going out metch networks, with sidle match, the idea there was, and there's also a pseudo message built on the Mobili, FRY punk and lots of other sort of mess. Now, experiments have been going on over the years. The ideas that you make it to that everybody who's in an area owns their own equipment, and so you build a network out of, like you know, all of these all of these pieces that are that are coming together instead of being one one big network that one endity has to invest a lot of money and and and a lot of time coordinated all. So with Alpha, I'm friend, we're you know, we're trying to add a monetary incentives at that kind of concept as well. So if you are in an area that has an Alpha a network, you can host some hardware on your house and then that can be providing, it can be spreading network to your neighbors and then also you'll get paid for for running that for all the the band with they are using Antoss that you're selling. So the good goal and problem we're trying to solve this is Internet access and and yeah, to put it simply, it's a mission at work that has kind of you pay with some cryptocurrency instead of like services. Is it like is it per bants? Yeah, per usage type of thing, or we're gonna get into more. Did you go to details of this trying to Didycho overlay it. Sure, sure, yeah, so it's pre useless. So it's it's basically for bite, although we think of as per gigabyte. What you do, of course, and the important thing, is not necessarily a pay with B like cryptocurrency. But but that is like the market of it's the market of the bye is buying blank bandwids for each other, and so that what that what that will enable is that if you're in an area you and you have it, you're connected to that network, you are going to be incentivized to get your neighbors on as well because, you know, our more money. And then also in area where a lot of people already have Helbia Internet, there's incentive for people to figure out like better routes ort to take. So if they can make this connection, you know, across town. So the radio equipment that use actually as a really long range and one which is the lane of site. So if you can make connection to a part of the network where the band with a lot cheaper than that's like an arbitrage opportunity, and so that helps. That helps and sure that that, you know, the network as the whole is offering the lowest prices for the best service. So then you think of other way. I realize these build is like a central planning thing, like Communism, although it is obviously run by a for profit business. But within that it's all centrally planned. With Alpa it's more of a free market system. So many different players can participate in the network and if you can figure out better placing, pore your equipment and then you can earn more money within that market. So what I how I currently understand mission networks is it's basically a bunch of devices that are linked together via various means. Right, it's just put. US assume that there's a good connection between a bunch of Amere to devices and then some point there's someone who provides the actual internet and then that gets relayed across anyone who's asking it. And then so the whole goal is to say like, all right, well, by relaying information from the guy who's actually providing the Internet, we can give you unts to a bunch of other people who don't have isps. That basically what you're doing. Yeah, exactly. So, so the the connection for an LPA network, it's it will work over, I mean you'll work over any Internet connection. So you could definitely have people you can kind of like pirates, I guess, pirate in their connection and reselling it, but that's not necessarily be very stable. So generally lcn network have what's known as back hall and that's a wholesale sorts of bandwidth and and that's also how I is these operates to is they'll pay another Ip for for connection,...

...and so that's that's like usually a kind of a bigger a bigger connection of a gigabye sor gigabit or more, and there will be a note in the LPN that work, known as the gateway, which which which felt that they buy the Internet connection with conventional means, you know, with just you know, paying, paying a whole fallacy, and they'll sell that in the LPN at work by the by the GIARBYTE. That's that's just anyone can do that and it's because it's somewhat of a market place. Whoever has internet basically says I have Internet, don't doesn't matter where it came from, I'm selling it on the outside network for some price. Now you can choose to exactly somehow and as this John so through in quite in the current networks. Yeah, it's best to start with with with a reliable sourceing. You know what rod the source of Wholesale Band with that meant to be used biases. Yeah, because that's just going to have a lot of time and have a lot of pasciting stuff. But you know, somebody didn't want of those networks and they they don't necessarily you know, maybe maybe they have a good Internet connection, but they can also then sell them that connecting the network and it's pretty much seems so if they turn their you know, their device off, that connection goes away and then everyone's traffic will get routed back to the back call the wholesale the connection is there. I'm assuming there's a token here. How does that work? Yeah, so basically the the way that people so we have all just ault tally a little bit about the the places it's currently deployed. There's a network with about, I believe it like fifty five or so households on it in real Oregon and that was our first, our first network, and that's run by my cohund Debra, and that Network Tho. So, yeah, the books by people. There's also a network in the US come online. The BUDJ are, Nigeria, and about ten people on it right now. And then there's a network in Tacoma, Washington that has another, think, around ten people, and those networks people are using die to pay each other in those networks. So the consumers, they just learn how to use point based by either they send that either into one of the LPA routers and the router actually turns into die, you know, put die directly into there, but usually easier by either, and then all the routers pay each other in dies. Everything you be denominated in dollars and stuff. We are right now doing that with the x die side chain for etherium, which is like you know, it's like a version of the theorium. I guess where dies the native token, but we will be, as soon as we're able to, will be switching to a blockchain of our own based on Cosmos, which we also have. Dies the native token there and then the actual fas token. It's just it's just meant for proof of steake on that that watch in that cosmos chain. Let's talk about that costal was chain. Why One? Why switch over from using die and Xtie in the Theorem next time network, to using your own custom built. And what's The differentia of there? Yeah, so using etherium by itself is tricky because of just the capacity. It's not too bad, I guess, but it's not necessarily a long term solution and it tends to be kind of like the the time it takes the stuff to to to for transactions to the clear and stuff can be kind of variable. So excise lot faster. And Xi has a two way as a bridge would eitherium, like a two way peg, I guess some people call...

...it. But you see, can send die in there from the durium chain that gets turned into Xi, which is, you know, the token on there, and vice versa. Xi is being run by a company called proof of poor, proof authority. Yeah, and it's the the architecture of Xi. It's kind of it. It is a proof authority chain. So that means that versus proof of stake, where we'll like to proof authorities. If you're on the validator list and you're basically trusted and there's no person of working al still be passing along a book on who gets the submit blocks and it's you're just you're basically you're doing getting trust to the to the validator set and they don't do any work whatsoever and there's also no fees associated with them. Fees, but like they don't get mining rewards and proof authority. That's their choice. I mean they have the they have the fees really really on Xi Right now, which is nice. But Yeah, so with Xi there's never been a problem with it actually, but it also proof the authority. It doesn't seem like the most long term kind of technology you want to prove mistake like is available with what a cosmostas chain. It's, you know, validators aren't a hundred percent trusted by the protocol. They get slash they do something wrong. If you're at token hole, you have to delegate to the validators you think are not going to get slashed. Otherwise you're you know, you're going to lose your tokens to and so it's just more it's just more or more robust kind of and decentralized governance of WHO's actually confirm your transactions. But they move to that. How does the governance around the block chain you're going to build work and what token is used to do that type of thing? You're going to have to have your own valiat or set or you're going to use the cosmos network itself. Yeah, so we actually already have a blockchain up. It's not officially the it's a test net right now, but we have a valid or set on there. And so the way that the governments works is that there's the Alfia Tokens, there the proof stake tokens. They basically delegate them to validators. The validators that something wrong, they get slash them. You lose your tokens as well because you chose to delegate to them. But if they don't do anything wrong, they get also inflationary rewards, which is like the reward for we're having put your tones online on behind somebody salidating. And as far as like particular governance on the particular code upgrades or parameter changes and stuff like that, there there's vote which are held us things. They're like token votes. So the more tokens you have, the more your vote counts. It's night can cosmospace changes also that the validator. If you don't vote on particular issue the validating, you delegate your tokens to their vote. It counted like they're they're very using your tokens to vote, but you can always override it. So that mean that it's a little bit of a represented democracy, which which helps with you know, there's been a lot of doubt projects and stuff in the past a couple years that have had extremely low turnout in votes. And with this system, as long you delegate your coping someone you think is going to validate well and vote well, they're able to take that active rolling that are given. Random token holder might not. Yeah, we've talked with with random or not random, but we've talked with companies that participate in Valvator sets. So I'll across a myriad of different projects and and Cosmos and others which basically so it turns out you have this market of people trying to vie for people to delegate to them so they can be in the top set and our rewards and then and then split. Those are words with those who delegate with them and it's kind of have this nice market of people wanting to do good work to be in the validator set and they run a business on them, but the margins on them are quite thin and I just bet, I imagine what you're doing is similar to what other DPO has change on Cosmos are doing. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, we're not really changing a whole lot of about how the how the consensus works.

Yeah, do is that that that governess token? That doesn't play into payment on the network, does it? Is it going to be specific towards governor or can you use it to actually pay for bandwidth? No, yeah, but the payment token will be will be died. Maybe at some point the future stable coins that are paid to other currencies as well or whatever. But generally the the intention is that the payment token is something that the users of the network, we're not at all cryptosavvy, you know, understand. You know, not some big deal with some some some COMP pating. That that understand. So trying to find people with the God I'm just trying to find the like a natural pricing mechanism for the governance token if it's use as only through governance. But like, the value of the network is in price and other assets like die well. But so there's as the network runs, it takes transaction fees off of every transaction. So ultimately the pricing of the governance token is related to the number of transactions going to the network, because the people with the government's token and the people validating will get will get die. As well as the validation rewards, which are inflationary, they also get transaction fees which are denominated in in die or are the stable coins, and so that's where the castle comes from. I say what you could kind of gives you a natural pricing mechanism of what how much a specific token is, based on weighted stake and the amount of transactions flowing through. The obvious next question is like, how do you do settlement on the network for paying for services? Is it is it a payment channel that streams per bite, or is it something that has to like I guess there's an accounting system there. You set all every month or so, like how does that work? Yeah, so, yeah, the way it works is that every every router is it pays its neighbors for bandwidth. They're really paying for their autonomously directly. Kind of funny. You mentioned payment channels because I had done when I first started working this project. I had had been really in a payment channels and I thought it would definitely need a payment channels to work. And even we even developed, we in developed the payment channels this student. We even developed the payment channel system and what we found was that we never put into practice and we just actually made it for the routers page. Other directly, what we found the payment channels was that, like, I think that there's a lot of potential for payment channels in the future, but if you're looking at like, so, if you're looking at one hot payment channels, that's were only me and you are neighbors and we we want to pay each other like. You have to, you know, you have to put the money, you have to walk the money into the payment channel for you the enter, for me to release it to you, right and then if I if, I if, if I'm wrong and you were just temporarily my neighbor or something, and then I have to get it back out. And so what it what it kind of comes down to is that the it's the advantage of payment channels, not its grade, as one might think, because there's all this counting has to happen around. It has to be at the figure out when it's advocated to have them, when it's not advantageous. And then also, inevitably, any payment channel transaction is, you know, it's more it's more work than a the transfer at least an eytherium, the chiefest you could possibly get, like the process of, you know, opening a channel, put them the money and getting the money back out. To keep this we can get that would be maybe like five to ten times, but the price defending the money, and so it was just a lot simple to have them pay each other directly on the blockchain, and that's, you know, how that it's been working. And they also, the routers, will actually adjust their payment frequency between one another two to keep the overhead of about five percent. Okay, so you can. You're just a payment frequencing. I was that. So was cerious because I guess this thing grows like say, for instance, you get a massive adoption, you could a munch people. They're all hitting on chain. That's one reason to move your own blockchains. You can accommodate...

...that. That amount in the face associated with it. But also, like the payment frequency would bloat a lot of blockchain just the payments. So it's useful to just have something that scales really well with simple payments so that they can you can have either a consistent frequency and how often they're settling for bandwidth or allow it to ramp up really quickly if people were to like stream by the minute or something. I mean, I definitely think that payment channels could have a place of not position, but they're not like that. I'm very apert the thing. And and yeah, and then that's the single hop fames of the multipoppayment channels like ray and or lightning. There's a whole bunch of other issues where, you know, it's all any kind of questionable how decentralized it is and what you did. Natural Way you'd end up having, it happens basic, everybody using one hub, and so it just it was just a lot simpler to do it on chain for now. If we have a lot of volume, a lot of growth, that happens, then it's always possible to Shar geographically. That will work really well for our system because the you know, the networks are pretty pretty local. Yeah, they don't. There's no there's some dependons. So one network to another, which allows you to get you could charve with said yea geography. It's it's quite a nice way to be able to kind of idealistically separate the transactions that are happening within a group of community. The one thing that may do is it'll tell you exactly what bandwidth or sure or who's talking to whom in terms of sending that money. How do you how do you give how do you give privacy in a network at this or can you? Well, I think that's like your very good question. The privacy is the same as if there were single hop payment channels, because you know you'd either opening a channel, some are sending the money and then if there was a hub and spoke payment channel system lightning, then that the hub would would probably know who is sending who is money. But as far as the privacy here, it's you're going to be seen to be paying the people who are your neighbors. So you know, I think that there. It definitely is. There are some privacy questions there, but it's also not as much of a privacy issue as if you're confusing blockchain for general purpose payments to order stuff online or whatever, because it's it's you know, it's the information you get it from. It is pretty dry, like this person is this other person's favor that. So it's probably something you're trying to fly on. Some of you probably know that already. Yeah, I think there's a myriad of other ways in terms of like the the payments they're getting for routing, even the information inside that my opinion, if I were to look at this, this network of people were providing a fan with each other, I'd find the person who's providing the most bandwidth for the entire network and then put something on there to sniff all the traffic that goes through it. Yeah, well, you'd have to. I mean you'd have to, you have to break photography to make that happen. So that would be you know, once you've done that, you know who knows what kind of privacy means. You could. You could do it. I can actually tell you why. The way structured is that there's so we talked about the gateway. Who is who is getting the wholesale boundist going to the network with relays, who are basically buying the end with anelph and then reselling it as well, so that if you're on the network and you're reselling your neighbor. And then there's also a type of note called eggit notes, so I can notes on the Internet. And basically every end user has a direct VPN connection to an exit node, and so all of the gateways and relays and stuff, they only ever handle encrypto traffic, so that that keeps your the privacy in terms of what what you're doing on the Internet. The eggit node can see that, but the end user can choose their own eggsit node to so. And in general, with like with the Internet, there's really no way to have privacy like without like complete privacy, without using something like Tor. Yeah,...

...that's a little bit out of scope of the project. So so you can think of it as like big thing that built in integrated VPN and because our main concern was we don't want some of the neighbor seeing what they're doing on the interneck. That's you know, that's that. That would be a problem. But they end news it does have to have a level of trusty in the Eggit note, as they would in a conventional ISP or as they would in a VPN service. Let's talk about these devices. I because I worry about the security of some of the software and hardware devices of being put out by projects. I mean I've seen some centralized VPN services where you're if you know basically the identifier of a given VPN, you have access to their entire network because they didn't set up very properly right. So instead of providing that person of privacy, it's so it's a gaping hole into the network. What kind of like what are the devices people are using? Are you making them your cells and the software associated with them, and have they gone through any security checks? So the devices are their routers that we're flashing with our distribution, which is based on open wrt, and so the the device running LPA software are yeah, they're just like home wi fi routers. We choose ones that are a little bit faster, have fast the CPUs to be able to handle the VPN tunnels quickly. But then the there's the antennas and stuff that are actually carrying the traffic across the network, and those are off the shelf of wireless IP equipment. So those antennas, they you know, they only carry gave, you know, encrypted VPN packets and they actually also function only as basic gets bridges. They just bridge one router to another, and all the networking and routing and stuff is some of them the LPA routers. As far as whether the you know, as far as whether our software or our distribution has been audited, it hasn't. But we're also the software we've written doesn't really do much. Those are we we written handled payments and it handles routing stuff, but it doesn't handle actual Internet data. That's that's done, true, through wire guard, which is a PPN that's in the links kernel. Oh cool. So I would say, you know, it's not like it's not like, you know, a hundred percent bulletproof, but I would say probably a similar level of privacy as one could expect from from anyisp, you know, knowing their practices absolutely. WHO's your audience? Who You? Who You? Who you trying to go after? From from a court audience perspective? Well, so there's there's several, I guess it self, different audiences. The first audience supports is the consumers who are using Alphia, and those people are, I think there's an extinction between the Internet service in general and other types of products, which is that in other types of products you you have height of you know, you have a certain demographic you're going for. There's a certain profile of your early adopters you might be trying to appeal to, and you're going to have these these finatical users. Without Fiah, we do a finatical users, but by necessity, because it's such a local thing, that that the audience is is the people who are in the area wheld he has already been used. So it's like basically because it's because it's says something like no where there's a network. So you have like and you could have a grandparents and just regular people and most of you using Alpha. They they don't really they're not really into Crypto, they're not really, you know, they're not early adoptors. It's just the best option for them. And then the the Ie can audience that we have, the people are we try to feel to expand the project, is is organizers. So basically, although this is, you know, it's the defensilized system and all that, they're always needs to be at least that this, you know, this is this point the game. You do need somebody on the ground to provide human touch, to be able to help people with using it, to install...

...the equipment and do all kinds of things like that. And those are network organizers. And so those the people who want to bring a you know, faster, a cheaper those internet their community and and like the vision and think it's also a good way to have a little bit of a side business or or try to start a small business. Basically, and the way they get paid is the routers will pay to the rout ten cents for Gigabyte, for the bandwidth, which we've already talked about a lot today, and then there's also and subscription see, which goes to the network organizer. And so when they give someone a router, they put their address in as the organizer and that router automatically pay them, usually between pen and thirty dollars a month in the US market. And so in appearing to networganizers, that's like probably the audience that we really try to appeal to. Be Good, they will sell it in their area. We look for people are entreceneurial, who have somebody about the ideals behind what we're trying to do, but it's more about, you know, wanting to provide the serves their community and being able to get out there and get things done. How does that how does that make Alphia money? where? How are you? Is Are you selling the routers? Is that where it's it's almost like a product play, because you you're listing a bunch of people to proselytize the service so that they can get cheaper Internet. But they pay themselves in a lot of ways and the service he seems to go to the people who are doing that. So how do y'all make money? We're going to keep upportionate the proof of state buildings, okay, and that gets priced in through basically the amount of bandwidth that's to be purchased and the transactions that are happening. Yeah, those receive a percentage of the of all the of all the money point from the network. Okay, but thinks that makes more sense. So I get you. You get this. I'm trying to see how much money or people do people tend to be making in the cases you've seen right like this, this person that goes out and process sizes, they alphea network and starts helping people set up routers and set puts their address in these managers. How much money do that? You said like thirt my art is also called thirty bucks per router. How much is the end user on average paying for Internet and how much bandwidths they typically typically consume? Is that? Is that information you can gather? Yeah, so, typically people use about two hundred gigabytes a month of data, and that varies, but that's that's what that was established actually in a study a few years ago. But that's also what we've seen in the real world to as being what people use. So from two hundred Gigabytes, a ten sent the GIGABYTES is about twenty a month. And then, you know, plus another, you know puts another with a twenty. That brings it to forty, which the pretty reasonable price to pay for Internet access, with the other twenty three or in USPAR's talking about. So specially where other other I spl turn a tens are her scare c typically a lot, a lot of places around, even the US, but especially the globe, you have one option and it's usually terrible. Yeah, exactly. So it's in that can all be adjusted. I mean it really depends on what's happening locally. So the the ten sent the Gigabye this twenty a user per month. On average that's been split between the relays that are relaying the traffic in the gateway. So currently the relays that that are earn at works right now. They will make an average a little bit under ten dollars per month per either and then the gateway basically makes the rest of that. So the thing with the gateway that the leads on the band of the wholesale bandwidth. It's a different thing than retail...

...band if you might get for your home. Yeah, even if they're both advertise with the GIGABIT, because the wholesale getting big literally that if you're not using that portion of the wholesale ikey's network, it's just not even going to be active. Right. But the retail gigabits being resolved a lot of people. So with a wholesale gigabit it runs over a thousand dollars a month. And so the gateway has to you basically have to break even. You've got to have about like eighty eight people in a network and then the then the gateway can start to break even. That can be augmented a little bit in most cases. Then works are started by somebody, by an organizers also running a gateway or is associated with the person wants the gateway, and so you can kind of two of things over in the earlier days, but generally there's a critical mass to get it started with the night thing that after that the more users get added on. You know, it's kind of free money because a Gig a bit of capacity can can service over like over five hundred and users. Yeah, regular users who are or kind of power using the Internet. And I've seen a lot of Mesh network projects that kind of goes stale because that gateway is so expensive and there's no reason think it's difficult to collect fees, pay for that thing and provide the service for all the people who are consuming that. That, I is keeping with. Yeah, that was so with Stud don't match. That was that was a big, big part of the challenge that I haven't been involved into the match or maybe like a year, year and a half, because it when it's, you know, started working out for a full time was kind of a little bit too much messal too my free times will put on. That's one of the big issues that we we had there was would that we were trying not to now actually stud on mess. You know what? I think that they got like they got it donated, take of it, which is really good, but then I think it's a really hard time getting it over from where it was made available to where we needed. But the yeah, the the issue there was pseudo Mex a lot of the Times is that we had the flossy of Oh, we will just have people, you know, Pudo Mexic work a lot like alcia actually based like the LP of the die on on on a lot of what we did there. But like, basically nobody was paying each other. So the idea is like, you know, everybody is, you know, if nobody's paying for Internet and everybody has had forpare for the equipment, like, you know, Internet Fay free, which it's like sort of the goal right as to the mess and but the difficulty there was we were just thinking that people were going to just sort of pirate there existing retail connection and you get people to, you know, pirate that connection and stuff with. The problem is that that doesn't result in a very, you know, very stable network that has good guarantees thrown up time and stuff like that. That was always kind of a challenge. Pitching it as a replacement for, you just the Internet. So having like, you know, having real wholesale back hall is pretty important, but it was also also kind of a hurdle. We're actually, though, we are in the early stages of doing partnerships with them, with some wholesale Ikes, particularly municipal ones. So there's there's another town in Oregon where Sherwood, where that that municipal the municipal network, is going to do a deal with us where they or, you know, it's not really deal with us. But if they're going to make their bandwith available on a meter basis, so you don't have to fight off that fole like, you know, fifteen hundred dollars at once. You're an organizing surewood, you can just you know, you can just buy by the GIGABYTE and sell it by the Gigabyte make a profit on top of, you know, another Gigwedgei. So we think that that doing more partnerships like that and getting more wholesale, I interested in this way of doing things can also lower the barriers a lot to helping people build out the stuffing networking area. Why would, I ask pease, do willing to to change any of their ways to help you facilitate get a users that they're not going to have? Guess in the end it is going through them and it's another it's another client that they wouldn't normally get. But like, why don't they go out into that? Yeah,...

...so the that's a very good question and it's generally not a good idea to be getting bandwidth from someone you're also competing with on the retail front. But there is actually there isn't that much overlap. There is some overlapp of course, but there's not that much overlap between retail ipees and wholesale. I see. So wholesale I see if they you know, they if they think it's a better way to sell their wholesale bandwidth, they'll be on board and we think that it's something you've overlooked. is like people starting smaller networks, and we think that like by by by demonstrating that that's that, that's the category if network, that's possible, if you just Lord the various entry you think that they'll get on board. In the particular case of where we had the most success, though, is with wholes ike wholesale ips, excuse me, who are run by US government? What are you? Local government, municipality or a state initiative? Because those guys, you know, they need to they need to keep running to cover their expenses and stuff, but they're also they have kind of a foul mandate not only of making money, but they also want to serve their constituents and generally a lot of the times, big commercial retail Ikes, they require all kinds of subsidies. They do get all kinds of subsidies and stuff from the the SEC and then also from local governments. And stuff, and you know they they want to they want to be treated really well just because they're going to build out in an area, and so musical musical hostel hasps are are open to trying something different if it's going to resolve. So that I can see that definitely a reasonable thing to look for your just you dinscipalize t's something around my area that ID that, but I've read a lot about them. Yeah, we're that actually. So you probably read about retail uniplies, peep, but there's also a lot of ones you don't know about which are just doing a wholesale and that it's selling bandwidth, the like comcast, who's like providing terrible service or whatever. But you know that's that's the only game in town. So generally what happens that when they're building roads, they're building power lines. Like actually, fiber is like pretty cheap, and so it doesn't make sense to build a power line with outstream some fiber off the cable on it. So they'll end up with these kind of long range networks that may be connected to a few different data centers, because those guys need power to of course, and so their boom. That basically got an ICP. You know, that's interesting. Where do you see where do you see this going over the next few years? Like, what are you? How are you how are you trying to build this out and and make it more robust? Like what's what's next? Tuner time one. Yeah, so technically we've technically we've got a pretty good we've got a pretty good system that works pretty well for what it's supposed to do. One of the things we're pretty excited about is we've just finished will still in testing, but we finished android APP which allows you to buy Internet from an LPIA and Ilia. I'll see the BIS on your phone. So like, like, I think you know, Pez people probably gather it from our discussing about this so far we'd really been focused on more of like the last mile intra structure level. Yeah, and we haven't really been focused as much on, you know, selling, selling a Wi fi hotspots to someone who's passing by, because, you know, we really really want to replace existing ips and not just sort of resell this stuff. But having this, having a apple, will make it a lot easier for people who who do have some equipment to make extra money in certain context. So in Real Oregon probably not going to make a big difference be because you're not going to be, you know, driving by from the house in the woods log onto their hot spot,...

...but you are. Now we're going to Buja, the extremely dense urban environment there, and so you could have hundreds of people living within range of of a given healthy on lode and be able to use the APP to to get banned with from it and pay for with dies. It's just the same as an area up there connection. So that should help those those relays and consumers in a Buja make more money from their connections. We think it's going to be. It's going to be pretty cool and in urban environments. And then other than that we're just, you know, continuing to grow and build out our assisting networks and help them help help our just see that we're spilled out. And Yeah, how's that work with the APPS? I imagine you have some APP that basically says put some money in here, it'll search for appropriate Wi fi networks with some maybe naming standardization, and then, based on proof of payment, it can give it a Wi fi password to connect. Is that like? How is this? How is this operating? I haven't really working in APP with withing in my cofounder Justin on but as far as I understand, the the Athens idea of the network, it's the same for all of the for all the LPA notes in the area. Were actually anywhere, I guess. And so your phone, if you have the phones and computers and stuff, they'll switch. If there's there's two routers broadcasting thing, that's ideal of switch between them. As, as you know, needed demending on the strengths of the signal, and so we just let the phone do that. The phones in the side which which hosts what to be connected to. That's always not always perfect, as I'm sure you'd probably experienced if you might be stuck on a week hot water or something and are on an owner venue or something. But the phone chooses which which I'll be you know, to be connected to, and then there's a dame in running in the APP there which which makes the transactions to pay it and then based on and then also every appsodes, so every apple also has its own its own address and and privacy and stuff, and so it's the the LPNOS are able to to offer it and I service to to the different phones based on that. So if you're not paying, then they they will prod or close down your tunnel. Yeah, so I kind of see this right now. is similar to something like, you know, airport Wi fi. Right, it's kind of similar, but the APP that you're using is is yours and it's connecting to a specific type of router, turning specific type of software so we can communicate, because I think this, this is a it's a potentially really neat idea to have small communities of people who run this Mesh infrastructure that provides them with Internet but also blankets the entire community with Wi fi that anyone can come through having the APP, get Wi fi for whatever they need. So basically it's community Wi fi for cheaper than well, it may and may in some cases the be hard to beat like for G or potentially five g prices, if they'll thought about what five Gee's going to do to a service like this. Well, we have first of all say as far as Alpia have goes, it's, you know, I think it's going to be something that I'm going to work really well in certain areas, but it's also building a network. Building a mobile network is really, really hard and no fires in really staggering amount of infrastructure investment and it's much, much harder, if any words, the magnazume harder, than building a network pork that goes just because the expectation that they're walking around your calls aren't going to drop and that requires there to be cowers everywhere, whereas you have a home or often and I can't.

You just want that connection there and you're happy as long as it's good there. So that's that makes it very, very difficult for you know, anyone and much let's decentralized project to kind of come in on the mobile Internet space. But we do think that in in some specific environments that this apple work really well where people don't have that many other options. But yeah, as far as five Egos, I know any time and in time I suppose maybe it could, you know, could spread everywhere and everyone's keeps for everything, but it's it's very hard to like start that sort of network for zero and in fact when cell phone companies did it, it was a very different time, of course, and then they had a they had a build lug in restructure and have a lot of mower capacity and suffer. But be very hard to start a new cell phone network now. But as far as by ggoes, I is sort of hard to get a handle on because it is a I mean g technically is a cell phone protocol and it's you know, it's different physical layer techniques to use the spection more efficiently and also different routing stuff like that, but it's not the protocol part of it is not like really that huge of a of an improvement. I mean I think it's I think it's definitely better than Forg, but it's not like, you know, it's not like a n x improvement. I think we're five. He's done a lot of fight is with the millimeter wave stuff that they're doing. So they're moving at the higher frequency, yeah, higher frequency radios, and that allows them to have much higher speeds and that's where you get these things of like, you know, it's going to be twenty, twenty pair of its per second or whatever, you know, whatever figure is that that somebody achieves in a lab, and it does mean that I G is. So it's also like an investment in a lot of like varizing. In particular. They're actually trying to get into the to the home band with the you know, the whole Internet market. Yeah, because nobody might be replace Wi fi a lot of ways. Yeah, exactly. So not an through place Wi fi, although maybe I would happen too. But but what they're focusing on now is actually replacing the the I connection to your home, and that's what that's what we're doing as well. And cell phone companies don't necessarily we have a huge advantage there, because they have to build like the same infrastructure to get to someone's house as anyone else does and they they generally don't want to use like the same connection that they would use connect your cell phone to connect your house, because your home Internet you expected using a lot more data on and have much higher speeds. So generally it's just about more like it's just about more, bigger as far as iotet is, about more bigger players getting into like the wirelessive team market, which is what we're we're basically into, and I think you know, certainly competition, but it's also not like you know, it's not like it's not like a game changer. Yeah, it's like that. It's not a showstopper. That's just something that's May or may not be something to put up against at some point. Like I don't think know, the cell phone companies are not that well like either. I think they're not as just like strueal terrestrial ipse are. But you know, the more is, the more competition, the better. So so I think it's I think it's not a problem. I think it's good to get more, more people, more people providing better in anet service to communities. Right on. Well, whate PP go to learn more and get touch you guys if they want to, they want to try and start participating in these networks. Yes,...

...the best play to go is ELCIA DOTNET. So it's a LP HDA darknet. Awesome. Pro Up any twitter so they could take it send you some memes and or hatred. Yes, that Healthya network to help the network. One word awesome. Thanks, John. Thanks for about the show. Yeah, thanks having you.

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