Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 76 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #76- Namebase.io Tieshun Roquerre

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Handshake is a decentralized, permissionless naming protocol where every peer is validating and in charge of managing the root DNS naming zone with the goal of creating an alternative to existing Certificate Authorities and naming systems. Names on the internet (top level domains, social networking handles, etc.) ultimately rely upon centralized actors with full control over a system which are relied upon to be honest, as they are vulnerable to hacking, censorship, and corruption. Handshake aims to experiment with new ways the internet can be more secure, resilient, and socially useful with a peer-to-peer system validated by the network’s participants.

Links:

Sponsor

Now entering work. We've got a sponsor for you this week. This week's episode is sponsored by status. Status AP, let's you chat, browse and Chen's act on the etherium blockchain. Take control of your own private, Secure Messaging U staps on mobile and secure your assets. Download the APP to day, where you get your mobile apps, or at status. I am get. At status I am slash get. The bitcoin podcast will also be in the TBP channel of the status APP to give out a little sant but you play around with the features. Start chatting privately today. Enjoy the show. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Welcome back to hashing it out. As always, I'm your host, Dr Corey Petty, with my trust to Co host at all times, calling Cuche, say what's up, everybody, Colin, what's up? Everybody calling, calling slow on me. Yeah, I had to mix it up and do that, dude. You know, you ever think maybe we should get air horns for the show? No, I have not thought that, and now that you've maybe think, because you could, like it's a terrible it is. It's our buddy called my cohoest Colin. There's a Frammarre and from there on the on the main show has that like application on his phone that does like the pump paper every time. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Oh, he has that, he's got it. I'll make a soundboard. We can have that sound board. We need we need we need a we need soundboard and we need things like you know, what's it called? You've connick's all that bullshit on there, so let's call basically that. That's easy, sweet. So today's episode we're going to talk about handshake at, a project that we've been following for quite a long time and we've CEO of made based on tes shoot up to I should roguere I said it wrong and go wrong. That was really good. So a second okay. Yeah, so, welcome the show. Give us the normal introduction to kind of how you go out into the space and what you do now. Yeah, totally. So, I'm catch on the CEO and Co founder of name base and you know, quick intro for a name base. We basically just try to make canjack really easy to use. So we have a domain registrar and exchange which is an on ramp for handshake and basically, if you just, you know, are interested in getting hand Jick name or by hs, you just come on to name base and go from zero to hs zeria hand chick name very quickly. So that's what we do. And then Agel, yeah, the like. I think the obvious way to make an analogy that everyone may have some for you aarity with, and I know they all have connections with this product as well, is a NS, the etherium naming system, right and DS. So like the obvious kind of idea here is people. I think most of our listenership understands the concept of the a theorim naming system, and that is putting human rootable names mapped to a Theorem, addresses and various other things you can put in the block chain through the naming system. Hs tries to do a similar thing but expands upon that quite a bit. Could use kind of start to discuss kind of hs along with like using that analogy to help our listeners to understand what hs is or handshake? Yeah, totally, and I can kind of jump straight to the root analogy, which is DNS, which is really where the inspiration comes from. It's the stands for the domain name system. You know, domain names are like, you know, googlecom right, which we're using right now, and it maps...

...a human readable name to an IP address, which is what the addresses a servers are. And then Ns is the theorem named service, so it's, you know, mapping human readable names to a theorem addresses. Handshake is similar, except it's mainly focus on DNS. So it maps human readable names to domain names specifically and maps them to top level domain names, TLDs, a likecom, di, io, dot org, etc. And handshake is specifically trying to decentralize DNS and there's a number of benefits and reasons why that's important, but that's really the analogy is is handshake is an extension to the existing DNS protocol, is backwards compatible and it's basically trying to bring the benefits of decentralization to the domain name system that you're definitely focusing on top level domains, thecom, dotnet, dot org, so on and so forth. Can you talk about why that needs to be decentralized? Yeah, that's a great question. So it's really interesting because the domain name system already is hierarchical. So you have like, you know, your route, and then you havecom, Doteo and Dot Org, and then obviously you have the subdomains, right Googlecom, you have a subsubdomain meat, dougglecom. So so ready hierarchical and it's actually relatively decentralized. You know, there's multiple different ecosystem players, there's registrars, Tho's different name servers. It's actually very decentralized already, except for at the root level, which is at the tld level. That is completely centralized. Is controlled by this organization called the eye can, which is this a huge bi product organization. You know, they do a lot of regulatory capture. It was in the news recently because they try to sell a dot org to the x I can see o. They had like a private out who you try to buy it out. There's a lot of drama there. So it's a governance issues. There there's like rent seeking and then the other issues is actually in terms of security. So the one of the main goals of handshake. In one of the reasons why it's so different compared to like previous naming projects is that it's a specifically trying to improve upon on security in the existing domain name system. Right now, when you're using, you know, ishtps in your browser and you have a little like lock icon right next year url, it's that security is reinforced by the system called a certificate authority. Certificate authorities are basically a third parties that your browser will go and trust and basically use as a reference to say how is like meet Doug Wilcom, you know, is the sort of big at that they're using to encrypt the communication with them? Is that valid? And you rely on those certificate authority to verify that information. And that entire system is very, basically like not very secure, and I can go into more details in a second, but at a high level it's not very secure. And what handshake does is it basically completely replaces the certificate authority BAS system with this distributive root of trust on a blockchain, and so it improves the security of the existing Internet by replacing the root of trust from a sort of the authority basystem to the blockchain law to go on here. Call and diff questions for I go. Are you running out? A pre existing consertis not work. Yeah, so it's actually a completely new proof of work based chain. It's very similar to Bitcoin in terms of how the protocol works. You know, new coins get mine. You know there's a limit in terms of the total number of them. You kind of think of the protocol implementation as kind of like a Bitcoin, but with a covenant system. The Covenant System Enables completely descend shies auctions on chain, and that's really what it's used for. You can spend the utxos in two different addresses that can, you know, do different things, but it's basically just like the coin, with covenants to enable fully decentralized name actions and name handling. I fact, you can you describe the covenants? Sorry, what do you mean by that? Yeah, that has covenant system. What is it? Basically, it's like you can it's kind of some MS, like colored coins in a way. It is basically you have a coin or Utx so that can be spent only in a certain way. So, for example,...

...after a auction bidding period ends, you can only then go and reveal your bids and then after the reveal, you can then claim the name and then after you claim the name, then you can submit like updates to go and update the DNS settings. But it's basically, like you know, that's scripting capability. Is something that you don't normally get in Bitcoin by default as just like very difficult to implement, and so that's that's effectively what it is is it allows you to create this kind of like logic on chain to enable the auction system. I'm sorry, I actually Cud of through me for a loop for a bit. K. So, so covenant, first of all, is basically a squd contract, it sounds like. And you're trying to what, like, how are people interacting with this logic? I don't think I quite follow the army user. My user journey is I'm going to to try and get a name in the system. There's an auction process. I'm not sure where that started. What you just take me through the user story here. So I'm a person who wants to get Colincom or Colin Dot, you know, handshake dot hs, and I want to go to your the handshake chain, which is just larger gcitualized protocol that produces a block chain and mince its own coolings using proof of work. Where does the auction come in? And I'm not sure if I quite followed what you said. I'm sorry if I've missed something. I'm just having heart tip truck that. So No, no, totally. And you know, I probably should have given more of a transition from the high level goal of handshake to the specific implementation of how the auction system works. I think probably one would help connect. It is while and I first just describe at a high level how like name registration and name releases happen on handshake and then we can kind of go into the specific implementation details, because you know that that's just an implementation detail. So at a high level hand shake, let's do register tld's on the blockchain, right. These are top level domain namescom that I am and the way that works is that you can register any tld on handshake. There's like a fifty three character by e limit, right, but it's like, you know, twenty six or one thirty six up in new Americ thirty six to the fifty three R as like basically infinite number of tlds and you can register any name on handshake. But the names are actually released over the course of fifty two weeks. So you can bid on any name, except that the time that you can bid on it, or like the earliest time they can bid on it, is determined by, effectively, you take the hash of the name and a convert it to a number and then you, you know, modd fifty two the name to convert it into a number from one hundred and fifty two, and then you that's like the earliest week they can bid on it. So that's that's how the names are released forbidding. And then once it's released forbidding, then you can start an auction for the name. You basically just submit your first bid and then basically the the entire chain, or anyone, can go and submit a bid for that name auction for five days, effectively, and then after the five days, everyone can reveal their true bit amount, because the bizarre kind of like maths masks in terms of the total amount, and then the winner gets to win the name. So that's, at a high level, how the name registration works and you know, I'll stop there for you ask more questions before hanging. I kind of dig into the details. Yeah, so she why did you need to make it blocked off by some fifty two is so just so spread the load a little better so when you know like you know, you don't have everybody trying to flood the system once for all the names. Is that basically what's going on there? Or's are different reasoning? I would have to check. I think a lot of a lot of the restrictions for handshake are due to either like scaling restrictions or technical restrictions, or it's just like DNS legacy stuff like. I would need to check if a tld you can actually be longer than like fifty three characters. It might, it might not be. But there are some...

...restrictions just around like what you basically like how the existing domain name system works. There's some path dependency there and it was important for handshake to basically follow the existing specification because otherwise it like wouldn't be compatible. Right, like you can't. You would. You would be able to use handshake in your browser raised by conforming to the back you're able to use it. True. True. So maybe I misunderstood something again and I thought you said that the auctions were scheduled for a fifty. You know the reason you pick fifty two is because you were scheduled to happen in a particular period. That to spread the load, or is it? Or Yeah, yeah, that's great, herd. I'm sorry, I was I thought you're talking about like the like the s somethine character limit. Yeah, so the that's actually a really great question. So the that release schedule is something that actually gave us a lot of conviction into handshake. Basically, there is a learning lesson from previous attempts. You know, I think like name coin was kind of a pioneer in terms of like blotching based naming systems. The the vision was very, very similar, and and the learning lesson is that the name registration and name distribution is really, really important. If you have a name system where anyone can register any name on day one and let's say like the names were like price for like a flat fee, for example, right, what you end up getting is that whales and early doctors come on to the network and they just register all the good names on day one or like within a few weeks of launch, and that's that's actually what has happened historically with like other previous attempts, and the reason why that you don't want that is because what will happen is, you know, someone who comes in six months into launch, before the naming chain has or the naming system has gained, you know, sufficient adoption that it's already has momentum. There basically no reason for that person to go in and invest into that naming system and start using it because they can't get any real estate that's valuable, right, they can't get any, you know, name that they want. So you really want to prevent these squatters, or you want to mitigate squatters from being able to get all the good names and hand she created multile mechanisms to mitigate that. So the first is that the names are released over the course of the fifty two weeks. So that means that, you know, on day one you could have did on, you know, any name like one over fifty two of all the names, right, and each weekend new set of names is available for bidding. That means that we're only, you know, a month and a half into the launch. So the majority of the names that you can think of and what wanted it on aren't available for bidding so that the whales can just go in and win them. Yeah, I've definitely. I'm watching like ten names and none of them are available and looking at a there's a website that was a given to me that I've been kind of checking to look at kind of a history, like history histogram plots of bid history on names as they go. It's pretty it's pretty chuting. Definitely put it in the show notes. The first, like one of the largest bids looks would for Khns, with the you know, number of quite a number of bids going with it. It's for dot summary, which happened. Yes, it's the last day or so. Oh, cool. Yeah, we'll have to they I think a new set of names is released like every Friday or something like that. So there there's pretty much like each week there's a new set of like really fun names that are coming out. It's really interesting. The the option system is also really important. It's a big ery auction that's like semi blind. Basically you can submit a bid and you can add a blind to your bid for a total lock up, and that's what the blockchain basically sees until you reveal it. So they just see this like total lock up and the winner is a determined by whoever bids the highest and they pay the second highest price. So if you bid, you know, a hundred hs and someone else bit a thousand hs, they would win, but they would only pay a hundred H S and they're not paying that to any organization. They're not paying that's like name base or like a handshake CEO or something like that. It's actually burned on the network. So those coins get burned and then the winner gets own them, and that's actually really important because that means that names can go for a fair market price. If you had all the names go for a flat price, then you know, wells are just be able to get a lot...

...of the really valuable names without any competition, or you know, Sampras will be able to do that where he is now. You have like the top name options. I think the big ones were like coin and Zen and Crypto. On crypto there was a five hundred thousand hin s bid, which at the time was like a a hundred thousand dollars worth of HMS. Like literally someone spent a hundred thousand dollars to buy a genes and bid on this name, and then the second highest bid was like two hundred thousand. So then two hundred Tho AH, US ended up getting burned on coin. The highest bid was a two hundred Tho hs and then the second highest with a hundred thousand hs. So that was, you know, a hundred thousand HMS got burned. And even at the current market prices, which is, you know, you know, after Bitcoin went down, everything went down a little bit, that's still like twenty to Fortyzero. That was worth of hs that was spent on these names as that kind of just shows you the importance of the auction mechanic because actually helps the true market price get bound and then the the winner, they actually have to pay the true market price for it rather than just being first and getting it for a cheap price. So I gotta I got off. There's a couple a lot of things I want to ask. The obvious thing from here, based on what you just talked about, is somewhat about the economics of HDS. Right one. I know that there was a novel distribution mechanism for initial set of hs Tokens that were released. Right can talked about that, as well as kind of the overall economics, like how how many tokens get released over time and if there's a Max and what's that inflation maybe. Or let's set like bitcoin less. There's a there's only this amount, ever, and from there, you know, we assume that the meme that will never change. Right. Yeah, totally great question. So there was a really novel distribution mechanism. It was basically an air drop to developers. Effectively, what it was was if you had to get up account with like over fifteen followers and assage key, there is actually making is m to claim coins, claim an air drop, completely decentralized, completely on chain, no third parties involved. You can claim these coins and you would get about forty six hundred coins hs for free and under Hun for thousand two hundred. Is How much it was, because just just good. Yeah, it varies for Garson for some reason. I don't know why, but some people get forty two hundred. Out of people get like forty six hundred. I got like forty two run around forty two hundred. Nice. That's awesome. Yeah, so I mean like that's like a significant I'm out right. It's like even even in the current prices, that's like eight hundred dollars worth of like literally free money, and we actually created a tool that makes this easy to it's like name based out io air drop and it kind of just shows the instructions, but this basically goes out to the velopers and there's about like a hundred fifty, two hundred thousand developers that are eligible for this. And the reason why that's really important is because with with something that can shake gets so technical and is like DNS related, you really need a developer adoption in order for it to succeed. And the interesting thing is that we've actually seen it get developed adoption, even from people who are into crypto. So there's this twitter profile, I'll send it to you after this, this Guy Ethan. He's an engineers stripe, and they're tweeting like, you know, I'm not into Crypto, but like handshake gives me hope that, you know, we can actually improve the Internet. And then they've been tweeting a lot about handshake actually, and then they like in their subjects are like, I'm kind of worried my friends are going to think on my crypto shill because because you got the air drop and then he learned about handshake because of it and he got super interested because, you know, he's like an engineering Kinnessey's really interested in muchels. that US talking about blockchain, but I really like it. Yeah, yeah, it's like a naughty thing that he's doing, I guess. So there's that aspect which brings in coins, but then in terms of the total cap amount, there is a total cap. I think it's like two four billion hs that can ever be mine and total. But you know, already there's like a I think over a million hs has already been burned because of these auctions, and so it's like, you know, short term there's like inflation because of the mining rewards and the air drops, but the then long term it's like the coin. There's there's a cap and the...

CAP actually goes down over time because the name options burn the coins. All right. So you have two different so if a mechanism for inflation, which is going to be block rewards to come in, they're also, I'm assuming, transaction fees for doing the auction. What I kind how is hs used outside of just burning for auctions? Yeah, exactly. Hs is used as the minor transaction fees. So you use use it as a normal, stately standards of point, standard block chain stuff like. So eventually, over time, as the block reward goes down, you'll be able to hopefully capture the incentives of run it, for running a minor through transaction fees. Yeah, totally. And there's a really interesting thing just to kind of stick within the you know, like token economics, bit a bit, which is handshake, is scoped out to be able to support or like fifty million TLDs. Like I think there's enough space in the blocks such that fifty million TLDs can be registered at any given time. And once you own your tld, you truly own it. So it's like a censorship resistant, private, secure tld. You control the key, you have it, knowing to take it away from you. But in order to maintain the ownership, you don't need to pay like a renewal fee, are you just need to do is submit a transaction that proves that you own, you still have access to the private key. Right. This prevents people from losing their keys and just burning names forever. And to start with that renewal transaction, the transaction fee for that is like basically zero, right, like the blocks aren't the blocks aren't full. Like, you know, submit like a small amountain, it gets mine, you're fine. But if you actually project out and handshake a successful there's like fifty million. Let's say there's like a hundred million TLDs that are attended to be registered. Basically there's only enough space for fifty million TLDs actually be renewed each year. What that means is that the lowest the lowest transaction fee effectively becomes whatever that fifty million tld owner becomes willing to pay, and so the transaction feest could actually become quite high for these miners, depending on how you know how Basta good is. Once once again, that requires a certain level of a fuse case, but based on the use case it seems reasonable. Well, it's more reasonable than saying it's a global money right. This is this is something that people use, people need, people want terms of mapping personalized, human rootable things to computers. The next question that I have in terms of USABILITY and adoption is why is my how is my web browser going to find or resolve this type of thing? Because right now, and I when I to like literally, is it may be to an IP addresses, is exactly a copy the DNS system. Of obviously this is top level domain. But then once I have that top level domain, what does it mean. So like if you, if you, if you look at the mean, you know how root DNS servers work. So you have you go to the DNS server tells you who the root owner of that that top level domain is, and then they're the ones who kind of tell you what being just under it. So clearly it's got to be a SELFCON dairy system to complement these top level domains in order for them to have values. What does that look like? Yeah, that's a great question and I can go and order and get those two questions out of the way. So first is, how do you use it as a developer? Right, what is this tld actually? You know, do and yeah, you're telling right. Handshake is basically completely compatible with the existing DNS system. So they took many sets actually make sure that it was compatible. One is that all the existing Tl d's Are predistort on handshake. So when you're using handshake to resolve your DNS, all your normal bitecom's and dotios and stuff, that all works. Your Internet experience doesn't change. It's just that you'll get access to the additional handshakee TLD's as well. So you basically just get askess this like new marginal Internet and then how you use it is tlds on hand Jake are just idld. He's on the normal web and that their referral only. What that means is that on the route name you can have a NS record or a DS record or a text...

...record, but you can't have like a name records or see name records and stuff like that. And the way that you actually set those, you know, normal records that you would expect for like subdomains and whatnot is you have to point your name to a name server. So you point your root tld on handshake to a name server and then you can just go and add records to the name server and then you you can not only set a domain directly on the route itself. Right, you can point like, let's say you had a coin, right, or you know you have like handshake slash right, you can just go to a handshake slashing your browser and that resolves. But you can also have the subdomains and you do that through the name server and that's actually something that's like it's pretty obscure right, like most developers don't have to touch that. Everyone in the on the Internet uses DNS every day, like that's a crazy thing about this is like so few people actually think about it. But like literally every Internet user uses DNS. That's what they think about when they think about the Internet. They think about dns. bascore must yeah, exactly, exactly, but like in terms of the actual and the pat an implementation, very few people, like dabs, are like using or thinking about it. So it's like kind of obscure to be running your own name server and whatnot. So that's something that we actually do at name base as well. We're launching literally this week we're deploying name servers for anyone who registers a name through name base and then so then it's like, you know, that name server is configured automatically and you can basically just use your name like you would in an interface like Claud Flier's DNS panel or, you know, the Go Daddy DNS panel. So that's actually how you end up using it. And then, of course, you can also run your own names. I ran and pointing to that, but that's the the developer user experience and talk to you a little bit more. Sponsor the show this week. Status and today I want to call out the many listeners who are building deps on a theoreum to tell you how to get your dept in the hands of all the status APP users. Status APP itself as a mobile web three. Unless your chat roles and transact there's a lot of cool things about the status APP. Right now let's talk about the DAP explore. Status at uses DAP DOT PS. That's referred to as dapts as an on ramp. Use A theoreum daps on mobile. Maybe you've heard about defy. Want to check out Kibra swap or defy zapp will get some sen C and F load it up in your status wallet and you just Daptot PS, DAP DOT PS to get defy on mobile. Take your decentralized, permission less finance with you. Already we're seeing tons of excitement around mobile depths and web three. If you've got a DAB, head the DAP DOT PS. Check it out, follow the instructions for staking, get your debt ranked and featured, or email steak at dap dot ps for more information. What's really needt about the status AP DAB explore that it automatically creates a social channel for your death. You've got a place where status APP users can find and use your debt, but also you've got the built in private, secure chat functionality to build a community. Do Qa, Faq support or even mean building. What's that? You say you're not adapt developer. Why not? Status has a suite of developer tools. They get you started building, testing and deploying web three DAPS with embarked Io. You know, you see projects that raise a bunch of money in the rights to two thousand and seventeen and then nothing. Some crappy wallet, maybe some Marketing Partnerships. But status is shipping consumer products, Dev tools and fixing a theorium and basic peer to peer networking and communication protocols. The teams legit. I'm on it to searchualize and open source. Check out everything they're up to at the status Networkcom or start with the status up at status. I am get that status. That I am get back to the ship. Yeah, I gotta so. I remember Stephen Mackie telling about this because he's definitely involved with with hs and has been for quite a while. And I run what's called the pie hole on my local network, which basically is my local DNS resolver which then filters for all of the potential adware malware, so on and so forth, takes it out and then only resolves the stuff that I want, and then that then points to like, I think it's cloud flare, right, cloud flare name servers, which then actually tells me the Ip address I want. It seems as though if I want to resolve something and my browser, I'm going to need to do something similar or rely on...

...a service like yours, like from like a very in user perspective, like the the normal browsers don't understand where to go. We're to ask the question of I want to go to Corey Dot Petty. What Ip addressed thing is that? How is someone set that up? And how do you see that kind of progressing along the way to where the averager doesn't need to give a shit? They can just use the Internet, quote unquote, and resolve to whatever the hell they put in their browser? Right? Because what I currently do is I do eight dott eight dotty dott eight to the Google's. Yeah, to do googles, because they just get better service than whatever naturally I'm on, and so I just use their DNS. So I figured like an analogous system enough to exist. What we're doing here, you're doing here to enable people to engage with it, at least at this juncture. Until, but, like you know, until people like Google, for instance, actually use this can shape protocols there. Yeah, as our primary DNS which is, of course, probably the ultimate goal, assuming they don't adopt it and make their own version. But yeah, which, you know, would make a lot of sense for them. But yeah, like I would think you would need to point it to a DNS server of some type. So is name base hosting that? Yeah, you're exactly right there. So the the great thing is that the user, the end user experience, like in terms of resolving hand chick names, is really the same as using an existing DNS resolver. So instead of pointing to, you know, one point one or a point a are using your high haul, you just point your local DNS resolver on your computer or your Rauter to a handje compatible resolver and there's actually already a great and you can run that resolve yourself. Of course, to the quol thing is handshake actually comes with the light client. It's like this trustless piece of software takes only ten megabised memory to run, virtually Zerospu and you can trust these resolve these names. Things and you can run that if you need too, because then it's like okay, that that resolver like literally can't be shut down. It just connected to the blockchain. It can be your local DNS was over. But then you can also use like a third party resolver, and there's a great company called next DNS that I oh, it's a privacy focus dnssolver alternative to cloud from Google. It was founded by the dailymotion founders and they're supporting handshake and they're actually integrating it for the right now and I think it should be live like this week actually. So that's literally just how you use it. Use Point your DNS was over to a hand Shick resolver likes like next DNS, I out, and then not only looks like a third party pie hole. Yep, exactly, exactly. Yeah, it's like a clodifier alternative. You know, it's probably or like Google alternative, right, like Google's their main business model is advertising. So if you actually do care about privacy or you don't want your ISP's to spy on your data, you know, you use a resolver, Google is still going to be fat, like really fast. But then your next DNS, they have servers all across the world. They have any cast network. They're very privacy centric. So it's just like a very good it's like one is like a literally a better DNS resolver in general, but it also supports handshake. And the cool thing is, you know, we already know that users do this right. We know that millions of people around the world go and Change Your dns settings, just like you to have, and then the the pitch of them is like hey, just like literally doings. It like what you already know how to do. Takes thirty seconds, point your DNS to a handshak compatible resolver and then you just get access to the new free Internet that handshake is creating. So this is pretty smart. It's really thin. Think things already it. Don't generally like things. I hide it pretty well, but I like this a lot. Called a coutrarian by it by heart. I'm not a contrarian. What do you talk of? Whoops, whoops, whoops, you caught me. No, I generally there's a lot of things I'm superscptical of. I try and get the benefit of the doubt whenever possible. But this, I think, could fly the the there's two. There's there's well, there's one real big thing that's concerning me on this model right now, and that's the dominance of I can and government and government intervention loving it like you know, government's love the fact they can shut down a domain they cannot shut down on a main on handshake, which is the reason why...

...people people use it. But at the same time I could see that being something that they could I mean, there's nothing stopping them from making using handshake illegal, you know, and they're probably our ways to detect this kind of traffic. Is that even a concern of yours? Now? That's that's one question. I know. I have actually two, and that's if I can, if I can squats on top level domains on the handshake network in order to attack it. is their way to mitigate that as well, meaning that these are already being auctioned and then I can't goes, oh well, I'm going to look at all the ones you auctioned and then I'm going to auction them to our private buyers, and now we have a conflict. So these kind of things come up in my mind when I hear this. What, what is the thought process of the overall world in the way it currently works and how you can kind of migrate to that sort of you know, to a you make the two kind of meet together so that we we live in a world where I think everybody's a little happy with this. Yeah, whatever, yeah, totally, that's that's a great question. So I think at a high level, of the two questions are, you know, what what do you do in the case of regulatory intervention? And then also, you know, how do you basically protect against whales just squatting all the good know, no, actually, that's what's that's that what I said for the SEC question. But good into the first one first. I'll do the second one. Lader, I'm sorry about that. Okay, all right, cool. So basically, for the for the regulatory assets, I mean it's a very similar position to Bitcoin, right. It's like all of this exists within the existing regulatory framework. The great thing is that, you know, names are much less regulated than something like coin and currency, right, like you know, typically like guard like government's really cared when facebook made like libra, because they're like okay, this is like, you know, that's that's one of their main sources of power. Names is not something that is as heavily regulated. And but then the interesting thing is, like, okay, would you be able to do something like the tech the traffic and you know, basically try to like censor it that way? I I wasn't as involved on this technofront Arccio is probably more involved there, but basically there are encryption mechanisms that you can have so that the full notes communicating to each other like normally, like it's actually not that hard to kind of detect like a like traffic that has like Tivy keys in it or like a public sshd is and whatnot, and handshake was actually use using this new encryption technology that basically made it very, very difficult to detect that time type of traffic. I don't know what the status of that is. It was either merged in or he was pushed off for later, but that kind of like sophisticated type of attack is. It's that's like a really sophisticated attack. Like that is like not something that is within the realm of what like if you look at how governments typically censor of the Internet today, you have China that has like really advanced censorship. Right. They have the great firewall, they have DNS censorship, they have IP based filtering, they have packet filtering, they have like really crazy shit. But if you look at what like pretty much every government around the world uses, they just use DNS sencessary censorship. They just go to their I P and they're like block googlecom. And that's why a lot of these DNS resolvers actually alternative ones, like googles and clofers. They get a lot of usage in these other countries because people are just like switching over to them. In Turkey there is spray painting one point, one point, one I one on walls as a way to kind of get around that DNS censorship when Urdwan was trying to censor twittercom. And eventually these centralized resolvers, they have to comply, they have to start sensoring the names or they get caught. They just got shut down right like you know, cloth fours, DNAs has is literally just a single ip address, and Google's as well. It was like easier to shut down. But the cool thing is handshaken fit into that and basically just be a very difficult to sensor alternative to these that's in a existing use case. The End, The end vision is effectively what you end up getting is there's handshake can increase the cost of censorship. With any of these things, it's, you know, censorship or security. People often talk about it in terms of like a binary right, like is it onstoppable or whenever? Like nothing, nothing in terms of security or sensorship is ever a binary.

Is always a spectrum and it's a cost right. You can, you can bring any accruption if you want to, had you know, enough resources or you know, enough guns or whatever. So effactively, what handshake is aiming to do is increases the cost of sensorship enough such that people have access to this, you know, and practice people have access this free Internet that is very difficult to shut down. You know, maybe the government could put in a lot of policies that like regulated or whatnot, but that's just like a very high costs right. So you have to kind of look at, you know, what is likely to happen given the, you know, existing actions that people have taken, given what governments typically care about and prioritize. So I think it's very unlikely that, you know, handshake is something that governments pay attention to enough to try to like regulate for a very long time. Yeah, and you that would be closse fled is a good problem. If they get to the point where they're noticeable and they can't do like what they did. It was its poker stars, or I think it's poker starscoms one, or maybe it's done. That was one of those government sees. You know, the government literally sees the domain in order to take down the system. And let's you know, government dominding seizures are not uncommonly St I've seen it a couple times. So I mean, I do think that they're going to be concerned and if they get, if you get to the point where they become concerned, that's really awesome. It means just working and that means you know, you know, it'll really put the clever things to the test. So I think it's cool. The other question I had was so the I can decides who has a top level domain or what top level domains will go up right now. So let's say corey, given the example yet earlier. He wants to do Corey Dot Petty. Any winds that auction on handshake and it doesn't exist in I can and then I can seize this and goes, well, look, we're really sick. What these guys are doing. So what we're going to do is we're going to put petty up and now we have a naming conflict between Corey dot petty on the global domain system that currently exists and the handshake domain system that exists and not. So I how do we put on rectifying that situation? Yeah, that's a that's a great question. So first I just kind of expect a little bit about how I can currently registers new tlds. It's basically have a program called the generic tild program, the GTLD program, and you know, that's where you get all these new tlds that has saw in the past. Right, initially have likecom dotnet and then now we have a few hundred more. The interesting thing is that that was a program that was running, but it's not currently running anymore. So there are no new tlds being registered by I can at the moment and we've talked with people who are were involved with that program and it's not expected to kind of start up again for another two or three years. You know, one of the reasons why I just the I can of Generalis is like big beer crack organization to kind of move at the space of a bigger kind of organization, and it's also they basically just have like a lot of a tape around registering new names, even though they're like super incentivized to do it, because they actually charge a two hundredzero application fee on top of the actual auction for new tlds themselves, for any new tld to to be registered. And even though it's like a nonprofit, they literally made like hundreds of millions of dollars like off the application fee is alone, and it's pretty wild. It's like there's a lot of corruption there. If you look on the last store you can kind of read some of the reviews about the I can executive team. It's it's a trip. It's pretty wild because this is something that is like literally the entire world is relying on, and the organization in charge of it's just like not a model organization at all. But basically the point here is that that does not become a problem for like two to three years and then, even when they do end up doing it again, historically they've only ever registered five hundred new gtlds a year. So that's kind of like the the realm of the conflict that you're looking at is like not for a few years and then five hundred GTLDS per year. You know, my bet is this stuff happened so quickly, right like atherium. We launched like what five years ago. My bet is that handshake can grow big enough that at that point people will just you get to choose right, you get to choose by taste priority and people will just be choosing Handshak at that point, I think within a year from now, because we're having those resolvers like...

...next CNS come up, we have deployment solutions like Zite and I can talk about that in a bit coming live as well. I think that a year from now the majority of people using handshake won't even know that it's back by a blockchain. They'll just be like, okay, there's just like new Internet system, you know, maybe they're ends just install on their computer or something like that. That's how a lot of these existing DNS was always get adoption. Is like you just like added to your mom's computer when you're at home. And I really do think the majority of people will be using it won't even know that it is a blockching. So I think when there are conflicts the that is effective. They hanch it. What be again, be big enough that I want is a community decision anyway, but also be big enough that, like no one will want to like use the eye can system because it's such a setting they get to control on your computer and typically it's like why would you ever want to use any of these, you know, random gtlds that I can adds anyway, really interesting choice, like it's one of those situations where, like you may end up like, say, for instance, then this future where you have this discrepancy and people have to choose which naming service they want to use. WHO THEY WHO? Who's going to use it? Like who's going to choose the one that doesn't give privacy, especially in today's climate and the rate at which the general community is understanding data ownership, privacy and security. It's just I find it interesting that it given that scenario. If that were to happen, you're going to have this choice where people kind of understand the implications of the naming system that they use on the Internet, which is something that people just they just assume they know even does DNS is period it? Most people don't even understand that they can register their own within a few seconds for like a dollar a year. And so, like I I hope that happens and that in which we have this kind of weird society we're like, Oh, yeah, you need to be using a HS HS enabled to domain name systems, so to change a router to this. Yeah, when people started doing unique services, it can only be done through a handshake system. That's like on you you can know like this, like SEC tour, right, if you know you want to use that service, so you got to go through tour. So why did you pick your to make your own blockchain? And the reason I ask is because there's a lot that goes into developing any sort of consensus based, decentralized system building our. I know that you are name base and I don't know what your relationship is with handnd shape, but maybe you can answer this question anyway. Why is handshake on its own blockchain when you know Ns exists on on a theoreum it inherits the theoreum security model, which has been a lot more battle tested than whatever handshakes currently using, I would assume. Or maybe not. Maybe they're using something that's already Ben Battle testing, just copy pasted, which is normal. The the the question is now, like you know, unless you have a lot of value in the network. You're still, sorry, no value power in the network. You're still, you know, worried about things like, you know, is it a sick resistance? You know, if it's a GPU BASS system, it's like hey, how would we prevent like fifty one percent attacks? Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's a lot of security concerns which come with running your own network and for a notework that has such a very niche use case, I have to wonder why so would choose to embed that niche in not choose to not choose to embed that niche in an existing battle hardened network? Yeah, that's a great question and yeah, you're totally right there. First of all, like we're building name based on top of handshake. So we didn't we didn't actually create handshake and we're just completely building on top of that and we're we're basically very red. I kind of think about name base as like the coin base of of handshake. Okay, yeah, basically go daddy plus coin base and that's like, okay, that's basically exactly what our company is. R Mr Luben, didn't mean to...

...ask good question. Those outside of your preview, but I'm still kind of curious what stopprobate? Yeah, totally, and and there's a really good reason for this. Is, first of all, a lot of the developers behind handshake. Initially they created Beecoin, which was the basically the only job script full note implementation at the coin that's ever mind a block. And so there's there. They're very experience with Bitcoin, it and Beecoin and basically they just extended that existing becoin code. It originally started as a fork of becoin. Actually, if I think, if you look on the GITHUB and might literally be a it doesn't show. It's great, but it's made by JJ, so it's becoin. I mean that's that's exactly. So these are like these guys are exports, so they're like very they like if there's anyone to implement it, it's probably a JJ, who was the main developer behind vcoin. There's actually like a whole becoin team now and a lot of them have contributed and there's like other contributors as well, but that was the initial team behind it. But then, if you look at there are a few specific requirements that handshake needed in order to be able to fulfill the DNS use case. There is a first you want a certain level of scalability. I think it's something like six or a transactions per second. It's basically like bitcoins. Like scalability can perfectly fit for the DNS use case because there's only ever like, you know, fifty million names is a lot of names, but it's like not a crazy amountain names, right. It's not like Bitcoin, where it's like, you know, using it as a currency system, you have tons of contransactions per second. That's where you have in a currency system. You don't need that in the naming system. So the existing stability was actually sufficient there. And then the other aspect was there are certain data structures and proofs that they needed to be able to do that they could do with HSD, which is a the full note implementation for handshake, is the reference in momentation that they couldn't really do on a theorem. I think the main one was there is a light client, light client proof that you basically needed to be able to do to have a light client DNS resolver, and that's really important because without a light DNS resolver, right, this is the client that I mentioned that takes only ten megabis memory to memory to Groun and like virtually zero SPU. You can bed that anywhere. You can put it into a browser, you can put it into an APP, even into an advedded device. Without that, then basically you need everyone to be running full nodes in order to run resolvers for handshake. is either you run a full node or use a third party resolver, and that type of scenario is basically unacceptable because we already know from history that people don't run full notes right. It's like a very niche thing. So effectively, what would happen in that case is that everyone is just using a third party resolver and then maybe there's like more third party resolvers that are on the market. But effectively what would happen is the same thing that we see with the existing market, which is that there's like, you know, there's like a handful of ones that everyone uses, and then you basically just kind of defeat the purpose of this censorship resistance as with of it. With with HSC though, because it can make those certain light client proofs and now need a double check to for the specific ones. But basically because it can do that, now you can have this like client that browsers can just integrate directly into their application. And then the really cool thing is, so that's really the end goal, right, like the cool thing with hand shake in the the only reason why I can succeed is because it can get this bottoms up adoption. You can have individuals like yourselves point your DNS resolver to handshake and, you know, just go and tell your friends to do it. Is like easy enough. You can get enough momentum that way. But then you want to take that and go to the resolvers, sorry the browsers, browsers, and get top down adoption, get them to integrate it directly into the browser, because then you can actually get them to implement tls using handshake as a routotross instead of certificate authorities, and then it's like literally a more secure browsing experience, because the sea bassystem is like a one of many system, where is like it like literally one sea out of thousands of CEA's at your computer trust gets compromise, your tls, your hips traffic, it can get compromise, whereas with handshake it's like, you know, the entire rock block chain would need to be compromised in order to do that. So it's it's a better security model and it's something that is feasible...

...for browsers to do, whereas otherwise, you know, there's a way that a browser would just like install a full mode on the instlake and then like, you know, download whatever. However many give you vice. A sword was needed for that. So I think I've bread great now. Then we took it a brave then. Yeah, so brave is freenly validating opera as well. These are super early, initial conversation, so like wouldn't take that as like, oh, they're doing it or anything like that. I want to said expectations, but those are probably going to be the initial ones. The cool thing is we've also spoken with the head of security at Google cloud, who also managed the Google Chrome certificates business, and the really interesting thing there is that they actually care about this stuff as well, even about from Google's incentive right, like they don't like basically, the trend of what's happening on the Internet is that the Internet is getting physical borders and sold in place. Governments are getting better at censoring the Internet. You know, previously, I think, one of the US presidents say a quote where I was like China trying to control the Internet is like trying to pin Jello to the wall. Turns out, John I was China was able to Pin Jell it to the wall and they're actually exporting that system to other countries. Now. They're running training, walk workshops. Other countries are now controlling the Internet more and more, and that's just like the trend of where things are going, and that's really bad for the Internet. Right. It's like we kind of I kind of grew up in a world in which I kind of assumed that Internet is, I can handley, this global democratic thing that's like can't be shut down, but it very much can be controlled, and that's kind of the state of things within the next ten years if we don't do something about it. And so hand it can actually provide a mechanism for the people to do something about it and make a very difficult sense system to put borders around. And you know, that's that's better for all the company Internet companies that rely on that kind of global traffic. And so there's you know, obviously Google's Google's like a very long term play, right. That's that that is going to take a while, but it's within it's within their in senseive models actually own it. Adopt something I can shake. So bring it back to first off, I agree with everything you just said. That was like. That's that's that's the that's the Internet we want and we're definitely in the this. The trends at a nation state level or not the ones we want, if we, if anyone, holds security and privacy anywhere near their priorities, and so things like this help push it back in the right direction, as as I see it. But I do worry about the weight of the block chain itself and I understand that you said there are like you have like clients in the ability to make proofs, good proofs which enable those like lines to remain trustless. But if I look at the way that etherium has moved on and like clients within Bitcoin as they currently stand, which you have is the ability to make light clients trustlessly request information from full nodes, but an increasingly difficult time running and maintaining full notes. And so, unless that proof system is somewhat variable, which you end up with in a long term, in a long tail future, is very few people with the correct know how, experience, knowledge, resources ceter up to be able to run a full mode in a tremendous amount of people demanding information from them because they can't sink the full thing themself. Do you? You may not know that much about that, but do you know? Can You? Can you speak to any of that? And that's part of kind of what the mainstay of etherium toto is and what stateless clients are trying to work within the etherium system is the ability to do what you need to do based on the resources that you have, to balance the overall load of validating all available information of the blockchain and not relegating...

...all of the work to very small people and everyone requesting things from them. How does that work within handshake? Because with something so important as the naming system of the Internet, you want to make sure that you're not relying on a very small people over like over time, right say, it becomes incredibly popular and in the in the air where it's incredibly popular. If things aren't brought designed correctly now, then you have a lot of people who get really good proofs, the information is good, but the relying on a very small number of people to get those proofs. Yeah, that's a great question. That's really interesting point. You know, I would say I'm probably not the best person to answer this question, but I can. I can just say kind of what my gut reaction to that would be, which is the model is very similar to Bitcoin, and so to the extent that people are running phone notes for Bitcoin, I think it will be running full notes for handshake. And then you can say, okay, you know, I actually that people aren't running enough full notes for bitcoin either, and then we'll because is a case. Yeah, still then, still the best out there. Yeah, so, and that case then it's like, okay, I think this is probably just a systemic problem that pretty much the entire Cryptoc community is probably going to be thinking about and trying to solve. I don't know necessarily what the solution would be to that or what the extent or magnitude of the issue would be, but it doesn't it doesn't seem like an intractable problem. Like I feel like I've all the things that I'm mainly worried about for handshake. I'm not really as worried about that long term case because I think there would be enough sufficient developments at that point where are enough incentives for able to run these full notes that it would be it would be something that resolves itself, but we'll see. Yeah, I don't think it's a p videal let mean, who needs that much evidence? That's what it winds up being in reality. Is that the reason that in a lot of people don't run full notes is because it's really just an evidence trail and you don't really need to being tained that much history about who spent three cents worth of, you know, hs Tokens, whatever they are on, on, you know, a transaction to sends their friend or whatever like. You don't need to keep this data around. What we care about is the current utx. So so what we care about is the current state of the database with regard to who owns what. What we care about is the auction system and when things are going to be actually put up for sale and what goes on in those sales and what those sales look like, our auction bids look like. Well, that information can eventually even be cold anyway, because you don't need to keep bids that don't stick around. If the bids are posted and they're not correct, who cares? Are Your from now? Who really cares? This is totally proutable direct it's credible. You have too much hoarding going on in the blockchain space. There are people who will hold for us. We are eternally grateful to them because they will always be able to prove all the way up the chain that they that the current state is correct, and for them they deserve a Nobel prize in in cryptoanarchy. But I don't think that is a real valid concern in the space. I just don't what it as it didn't that light. You said it's not in your top list of things you're worried about with handshake. What is that top list you have? Like we're running of time here, but you have like a kind of a too long didn't read on the things that are on your mind of potential issues in the future. Yeah, totally. I think the different aspects are typically around the ecosystem and then name base specifically. So the things that are really important that I think hand Shik needs to succeed are it needs to be super easy to register these names right, and that does effectively what we're trying to solve. That name based right. We have an on ramp. We want to kind of prevent this Crypto Katy Sy scenario where you know, Crypo kids is a phenomenal. You acts are very celebrated for that. But you know for a long time as that you go on to the website and they're like, Oh, you're ready to use CRYPLO Kadis here the ten steps that you need to go and use your cryptic kitty, and that's just like not something that like normal developers are going to put up with. I think crypto developers, you know, has kind of gotten used to going through normal more steps, and so there's a...

...there's a bit more a pain tolerance. But really for developer adoption you kind of need something super smooth. So we aim to build that at name base and we have the BTC on ramp and then we're launching a USC on ramp to so then now you can buy your internst with USC and then go on rightist the name. But there's a lot of steps and that funnel that are in that flow that can be really, really condensed. So the next thing that I want to do is then now we can abstract away the entire process and just say hey, you can just, you know, bid with your dollars or whatever currency you want and we'll just handle everything with AH has behind the scene. So you just like putting, you know, putting your coins or putting whatever in and then you get a name out and you start using that immediately. So that's what I think about a lot when it comes to name base. It's just making a super quick and fast but then the other aspect is, okay, how do you not only to deploy handshake websites, but also how do you resolve the handshake websites? So on the resolution front, we already talked about next CNS right. I think that is going to be very key for handshake because you really need it to be super easy, just as easy to use Handjak as it is a normal DNS resolver, and I think that concern will be alleviated literally within like this week. You know, obviously we'll have to see by like typically with these things, like I just want I just want it to be live and functional before I kind of am, you know, resting on it. And then the other aspect is deploying handshake websites. And you know, there's something really exciting happening there, which is Zite Doc. They created next JS, which is a very popular jabscript framework. It's used by Hulu, twitch Netflix, ten sent. I think this is very, very popular and it's Zite Maade now to a SA, which is basically there's like a lot of jargon, but it's like one of the best website deployment tools on the market right now. You can just like to play at what was site instantly and they're going to support handshake websites. So when when they do that, and that that should literally be within the next few weeks. When they do that, now anyone who wants to create a handshake site can just literally just go and deploy their normal handshak website using the best of breed deployment solution that's on the market, and now you literally just have like a handshakesite light. You're just going put your friends to it and and so that's that is the other piece that is you know, my main concern is like, okay, are we going to be able to get the the functionality easy and f such that normal developers are using this? You know, the really key experience that I am looking for is there's a really good croustics and article talking about you know, what developers are playing around with on their weekends ends up being like what the entire world uses. You know, ten years later, and then we're going to see the same thing with Handhak, which is, you know, if handshake is easy enough to use, you're going to see developers playing around with it on the weekend. At the very least, you'll see people just getting their blog right. Developers love rewriting their blogs and whatever the new technology is, at least just get their blog and they get like their out. They'll get they're like, get up handle right on handshake. I'M T rock. I'd get hand a t rock on handshake and I just like Crey a little website on it, blog dot rock or whatever, and that's that's the next piece that I think is really important because from there then developers or just go and tell their friends. You have the word of out spread and for those little side projects, those of the websites, they kind of seem like toys, but it's really important because one of the developers are really the influencers of all technology spread. But also, you know, for a side project, you don't need Google to be able to resolve that name right. You can just tell your friends, Hey, I made this project on the weekend, I check it out, and you know, they have a good reason to do that, because one they can check out your side project to they get good access to a private DNS resolver. That's like not spying on your data, not monetizing it like the ISPs and these other companies might be doing. So that is what I'm really looking forward to, but I need to see that realize it self and be concrete before I really start feeling safe about handshake. So that's those are the main things. That areas that I focus on too. Good summary of kind of where we're at. What's up next? Let's finish up with like telling people how to get in touch with you or learn more. Yeah, totally. I'm active on twitter Tsh, on our name base HQ as well. That's probably better one to follow. We have a very active discord, which I've been really happy about. A lot of the community members are super helpful. They're they're ready, you know, building sites on it is,...

...which is kind of weird because, like, I guess I have to run a name server, which is kind of like very obscure by people are kind of going through the pain right now, and then obviously you can just sign up at a name based out I. Oh, and that's a very you know, that's that's probably the easiest way right now to go and get started on handjake can just go and buy hs and start registering the names, and that'll obviously get even better and easier to use over time. And the air drop is did you mentioned that? Like, yeah, you gotta name based out Io air drop, and then you literally get like eight hundred dollars. A free money, free money, guys, assuming go ahead of developer or popular. Yea, cool and everyone, everyone gets it. So I'm glad that you, Corey. You got it. That's great. Unpopular. I did like one project. I got a bunch of stars. That's pretty much that happened. All right, guys, that was awesome. Thanks for coming on the show. I look forward to seeing how this grows and I wish you all luck them totally. Thank you so much for having me on the show. This is great.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (118)