Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 79 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #79- Alex Masmejean Rocket NFT/MetaCartel

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Alex is part of MetaCartel, a group of developers seeking to make Dapps decentralize as possible, beginning with their developers. Alex is also part of Rocket NFT, a company that aims to create Defi loans using NTFs as collateral.

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Now entering ocast work. I got a sponsor for you this week. This week's episode is sponsored by status. Status AP let's you chat brows and Chans, act on the etherium blockchain. Take control of your own private, secure messaging. Use Steps on mobile and secure your assets. Download the APP to day, where you get your mobile apps, or at status I am get at status I am slash get bitcoin. PODCAST will also be in the TBP channel of the status APP to give out a little sant but you play around with his features start chatting privately today. Enjoy the show. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Everybody, welcome back to hashing it out. I'm your host today, Dark Corey Petty, with Colin Cuche say what's up? Everybody calling? What's up? Everybody calling? Nice, nice and simple. Today we're talking with Alex Mess Mesh as MED, which, how I said that correctly this time. Ash Mash, Mash, nice, spit a right. I love that about kind of like this industry as a whole, or like kind of a decentralized technology industry? Is this like real global nature of the type of people you get to meet and my attempts to pronunciate all their names? So, yeah, just give us the quick at production, because you're kind of involved in quite a few things. Where'd you come from? What are you doing, and then we'll just dig into kind of the weeds of these various things as we go on. Sure, sure, thank you for bringing me on. So My name is that express smash. I am from Paris, and so I've been really involved in the ether application layers, and so by application, I mostly think about those and the APPS, so like applications on the theorem. And so I am a core member of met. I count telled doubt, which is basically investing in etherum startups. I'm also the founder of rocket and, which I can talk about later, which is loans against n FT, and then I'm also a founding member of marketing down, which aim to go with him as a brand. So these are like my three projects right now. And Yeah, that's about it. So if them application there, all right. So, before we get into this each individual project, kind of curious about the current sentiment of those that are focusing on the application layer, because that audience is a is a dynamic target, right. Who you're trying to reach and what you're assuming they're capable of doing changes drastically with the underlying available useful technology. How does how does an application layer, as a person focused on the application where, deal with that? So I think one key thing that we learn collectively as a community, whether it's like Gout to all my other projects in that we try to keep it simple. So yes, it is technical. They are some friction. We assume that the users did know how to use mini mask and stand private key. They understand how to move phones around. So it's kind of like more than the average, I think consumer applications like we expect. I think we call this personal equipped and natives which are enthusiasts know how to use a wallet. Who aren't with theistic the understand what thou means, which is kind of hard. You know self sovereign community doesn't bring a belt everybody. So yeah, we expect a fair level of education on Crypto, the basics of Coptol, trn spring Phirons, lucking staking, Dow voting shares, etc. All of this Jogon.

I think we expect them to know because we think this category will expand on one end and on the other ends we will simplify or offering as well. Has a change over time, but it's like new technology has been developed. This are a specific green pasture that you see in the Inter future that helps you, helps facilitate your building or expanding the audience of who you're building applications for. So yes, so, so far the coupon natives has been probably like at most one or two million people, perhaps more so. It's it's kind of a small niche right now and, to be fully honest, with the macro environment and, you know, the founcon crash and stuff, people are starting to move away from the cryptonative slightly because we need to, you know, reach more than mainstream and perhaps like the crazy, you know, long term projects will be on the sideline's for a while, and so why we focus more on, you know, emminent mainstream use cases. But the I think this category is growing. continuatives are growing. More people know how to use the basic frameworks. They're getting easier as well. So like that, this is the application layer, but they are also the infrastrctual layer, the blocks layer, and all of this scaling, this privacy, that's user experience, all of these sacks evolving also help us because we are like so up into the stack. So we are waiting on other companies like this to expend the markets. So I would say yes, the market is expending. It's been going great. However, we might, you know, temporarily switch off focus because we have such trusting times right now with, you know, the current virus and everything. So it's a really like the sty squi is being shaken and maybe there's an opportunity for us to reach beyond the Coulton natives, and so we are currently in like a reflecting your brainstorming face. So the cryptonatives, they are willing to deal with some user experience problems. They just are they there. There they come from a culture that is accepting of innovation, despite some maybe barrier to entry that is present in current crypto. So some of those buried entrees are, for instance, scalability, the also the time to finality for a lot of these transactions. Is really slow. From a developer standpoint, a lot of these tools are difficult to understand, especially if you used to vary on demand rapid development. It's very difficult to develop a rapidly iterate when you're developing etherium based products, when you're comparing to say, you know, Edit, run compile, got a debugger, that kind of thing. When you're dealing with dynamical systems like a blockchain, it's kind of interesting to see how developers are adapting to making that better. So they build things a good nash to make the tools better, develop local, local networks for this. From a perspective of just the users and the developer, adoption seems to be barriered most by user experience. Now you're trying to break out of the cryptonative space. What is your strategy for Atherium, for breaking out of the cryptonative space, given that the user experience is pretty freaked terrible, even though it's better than anything that came before it, right, right, well, I think one thing right now that is defy so di and tries. Finance actually does not really suffer too much from the Turbo user experience like, let's say, for instance, time. So you know sure, it can take, you know, a minute or two. It's kind of annoying for the user, but like when you move funds out of a bank to a savings account and things, you can take up to a day or two. So here you know the scaleability and you know the transaction per second is not that important. Secondly, for the developers, sure, you know, I'm hearing a lot of depths that basically trying to go to May Nets to test a smart contract on the real blockchain because, like a vigil...

...environments only go so far, and so they go on May net and Mayet. They have to use real eath and so they can waste, you know, part is of dollars worth of eath just to try a few smart contracts and then deployed the right one that will be the final one. But the thing is even a hard dollars does not cost a lot, like functional infrastructure can cost millions sometimes. So sure, if we compare it to a block chain stack in technology, like in said, that's like fully mature. Sure, but right now the first niche of Krypto is defy and so finance is such a slow and expensive industry that compared to them, we are actually not too bad. Like if you want to go into a settings account in Crypto, you don't need no K. I see in some of fipplications that campound like if you have eath, it just takes two minutes to literally turn it into like die and then wrap it into she die and earn interest automatically. And this text like ten minutes and it's so yeah, sure, it depends on what we compare the experience to. And so sure there's a lot of, you know, room to improve in scalability, in privacy. That's the huge one, because it's a public block chain, so we need private tran sections. There's the baseline protocol. Actually that was just released by the the and foundation. I think it's with Microsoft, a partnership. And so this is a major, major thing for enterprises. So and user experience, but use experience, you know, for transaction that take some time. If it's just a minute to two it's okay. So yeah, that was my point that, you know, if we compared to the treasured finess model, it's okay. So what is how is Meta Cart what? First off, what is Meta cartel? What is this this organization, and how is it helping contribute to these problems and solutions to them. Right. So it's I cant sale started very technical. It was actually about solving the Meta transaction problems. What I thought it was a all time until until like preparing for this interview, is like, Oh shit, this isn't solely about Meta transactions anymore. That it's moved on through. Yeah, exactly, exactly, and so it's time with it. That transactions, which, like, in simple words, is that, you know, if the users don't at any east, but they know how to use men a mask, they installed it, like they don't want to go to coin bays and you a wait for cayice and everything. We want the developpers to pay the gas fees on the heal of the users, and so, you know, those are working group. He was like two thousand and seventeen, I think two thousand and eighteen, and the solution was there and now you can go on Tambo key or guess as network, as a developer and you can pay the gas fees of the user. And then what happens then is like, well, there was this group of like a hard people who became friends. Like a culture, you know, was emerged from this group and people were furnit to each other and are like okay, so what do we do now? You know, what's the next step for us? Well, if we care so much about user experience because of the MEDTA transactions, why don't we start a fund that would give grants to all these firm projects? You know, there's eth global. That is a hackathon. It's global, it's in many cities worldwide and there are a lot of, you know, hackers that are amongst the best developers in Crypto in the world. And so why don't we know, we fund some of the winners and see how they do. And so this is like how Ma tectel leverage its advantage to best. Is Like we have a very strong network, we have a bit of money. So there is like around a thousand eight in the Doo. So, okay, that's way less right now, but it used to be, you know, too horror throhun at thousand dollars and we take the consumer facing. You know, winning Hag get fund projects and, you know, usually each people on the side. You know, cryptoise very early doesn't make that much money on the application layer, and so the devs are very excited about this. With some times they can't pay rent with this. And so while we say is, we come in, we say hey, you know, you want that Hackathon, you are very excited by your idea. Let us give you FIVEZERO dollars so that the next three...

...months you can do a fully fledged product and perhaps then you can raise the seed round. And so we were the useful transition between a hackathon project and a fully fletch company. And so this is like with I cattel. Value add so far is that we take you know, vary projects super early on, you know, people that we're not really going to raise the seed round or, you know, raise funding, and we take them from there and like a just an example is pulled Berg from Sablie. So we funded Sablier when they want to think, some kind of hackathon like six months, seven months ago, and they were really like not, you know, the PROK was not out, it was purely speculative whether it would work, and actually suddenly as completely grown up and, you know, met the high standards that they were shooting for. And so it's a great success story. And we get dozens of this. Like there's t FIS APP, there is which is like defies APP like take multiple transactions from like you know, Investment Strategy and just pulled it together into one. And so then, like a you know, they take a fee of a few percent and now they're saying to have revenue and stuff, and so without, you know, a bit of push, with a bit of grant funding and also a bit of our social capital, because we are in the Theorem, we are winnowed by the community. When we signal that we funded this application, it gets a bit of, you know, mind share on social media and so they get visibility additionally to the quint that we give. And so yeah, I just think that, you know, we fund the applications that the the traditional vegere of funding wouldn't do. And we funded faster as well, because consensus and ease some foundation, they can think up to six months. So yeah, we're fast, we start small and we experiment. So that's basically when it's happen. So it's basically get funding for proof of concept, work for a really good idea to make sure that you can actually prove the concept, and then that would enable somebody to get seed funding for an initial like say, thirty, forty, fifty grants to actually get the first you know, a few months off the ground of a larger, scaled out project which then leads to further rec funding and at a actual rays. So that makes sense to me. The question I have to ask is how are you fueling this fund? What is your ask in return for this? So you know, nobody gives money for free. What do you get from this? Do you get equity in the future organization? Do you get a promissory note you they will repay in what is this? Is it literally just giving free money, like what's up here? Yeah, this is literally a game free money. Right now. We are not asking for equity to products a way too early. But two things. First of all, the way they we raise the money. The thousand eth comes from, you know application. Sometimes that would benefit from, you know, new project on the appiction layer succeed. So, for instance, I think we're back by noses and Mattic, which are, you know, a very famous motassaic and company on the noses side, and Mattic is like a layer to solution. Of course, if the application layer succeeds, like you, we need to emit a cantel long term. They are winning. So that's the first point. Is, like some people who found us, they have a vested interest into if them application succeeding. That's the first thing. And then the second thing is that we realized that, you know, some of the companies we are funding actually are doing not too bad and they are ready for funding. And so that is why, I think it was in Vail the month ago, my ticket adventures was created, so that the Deil flow that we have, the amazing companies that we got so early on, we should be the first one, you know, raising for them and believing in them. So when they raise a seed round, we will be there as well. And so this is my tegtell ventures. And so right now, yes, we will ask for equity, actually not equally, but like a token share. We are only with tooken because we take Conto, a native. It's much easier, you know, if the project doesn't have a token, it's fine. We can create like a claim stoken. It's...

...like a newis them sent standard. And so it's great because so that was that is like the next frontier when we actually make money, because this time we take Toccurns, we tet equity into it and we buy, you know, either equitting to the project or some part of the revenue for x amount of time. So this is our way to finally make money. Right, right, but right now it's literally free money. You plan on implementing these things in the future. So is there going to be a lock in? So if you get this grant, which is sentially what it is, is a grant, then you would get first option and they would have to kind of like pre agree to the terms on the DC or can they go shop around? So it's like, thanks to the grant piece, exactly, they can. They can do that the want, and we don't like none of them put a lot of money. This is the power of doubt. It's like, I think the biggest funders that Max a harneath, which is like, you know, a hard care right now, not even actually. Sorry, k. So it's such small amounts. Like sure, like the whole committee gathered around and we have some amounts of funding, but it's not a uge dress for everyone. So No, I would say right now it's literally philanthropy and we also realistic in the fact that the application layer does not make much money. So we are not expecting we don't want to stifle innovation. We want the people to be able to create some projects and then we should be able to attract them when they raise fund but also another point is, like some projects we do fun, we never really make money. So, for instance, like we so like the Doo UX, for instance, from it's I can't sound. We built it ourselves. So it was like a grant, see that we funded to build the depth UX, and now it is that house. It's a bit famous and stuff, but they don't really planning to make any money. It's open source, you know, webstree projects. So we also fund projects that are useful for the entire community which are not really having assustainable path straight away. And that's fine, because if things start to get premium, you know, like pain products, it will just like reduce innovation, as I said. So we just want to, you know, spend some money, have some fun. We strive into reman noodles profitability. So that means we are okay with not having money, and this turns out to be a strength. Right now, because the market is so low, we know how to deal with, you know, a few funding. We don't actually have huge marketing budgets or anything. We run very low and it seems to work well so far. So actually that's interest interesting. One more thing. So you mentioned that your philanthropy. Is this a charitable organization? Is that how you've arranged yourselves? Is this? Is this through a larger is this through consensus? I know you mentioned Coul set us earlier. So is this a way to maybe mitigate capital cans on their end, or is this? Is it? Because this does seem like this would actually play to the bottom line if it were pronanthropy to in other words, it would actually help whatever organization is running this to kind of mitigate some other market volatility or something like that. Right. So, on the legal side, we have not incorporated anywhere like, as I like to say, like Molog Doos. So the framework for Taos is incorporated on the theorem. And so, yeah, reason why we are not making money with Meta cartel, and neither is Moloch, which is the original molock Dow, is because it would be illegal to do so and we don't want to incorporate something that would make profits where the legal aspect is a gray area. And so this is why met I can tell adventures. We partner with Gabriel Shapiro, which is a zero low tech engineer. So He's a small contract engineer. He's also a lawyer and so he designed the contract to be so that I think it is a LLC. I'm not extreme involved with metical adventures, folks, but I think it's a LC right now, and this time it is legal to make profits. So that, yeah, that's also another reason is that Meta can tell giving grants getting down is also because considering is the first use case and...

...there's nobody money in APPs right now. And second thing is that, yeah, we just wanted to keep it legal. And you know, there's a lot of gray areas like, for instance, can a member of a down the anonymous or you know, molocked out? So doesn't fun if I'm slups, but defund if therem to skating stuff. They founded Tonato cash right Tonto cash could be seen as money laundry. And so what happens if tornado cash, you know, goes into court like artom? All of them members Liabel for it. So there's a lot of gray area, and so this is why grants getting is just safer, because it's like, you know, we have not made money and in the eyes of the governments it's probably safer to go that routes. And so this is why we take it. Adventures probably would not fund things like Tonet of cash. They probably will be a bit safer and they've got the LVEC dawn. They've pilot with open load, which know what they're doing. They are like smart contruct lawyers, pretty much when the theorem where the LEVEC text as finality of a core decision a blockchain smart contracts. So yeah, it's also like we've gradually grown, the APPS have grown, and also we want to be more good up in the legal area as well. We try and rephrase a little bit of that, based on my understanding of what's going on. Like currently, in my opinion, the landscape has a lack of developer pool and available resources to build the useful things that need to be built. And so also, like in terms of where we are in terms of overall development across the cryptocurrecy space or blockchain space, is swayed closer to needing more infrastructure. That's why our UX problem exists, because we don't have the propropriate infrastructure to build regular applications that other people, that people can use without understanding what's going on. So because of that and the CIT like and that, like limited supply of appropriate developers who can make the decisions on what should be built and how it should be built. You have the infrastructure builders, to people who are building the like the platforms that other people can build on for application layer stuff, building something and relying on others to build on top of them for them to be useful in work. Right, look at the defy space. Like maker makes die and then gets a lot of value based on all of the companies that build on top of it and make use of die through decentralized finance and so what the problem is they're available. Resources need to be focused on making sure die works appropriately and it gives the guarantees of what it has and and there's a lot associated with that. And so it behooves them to fund something like the Metacard Tel doll, to spend time and resources figuring out who the hell should be building on this and funding them to do so so that they can then have more use. And there's an intrinsic benefit of kind of being locked in by a lot of other different things taking advantage of their technology right, they become the standard, if you will, if everyone's using them and so like. What I don't understand is why do the people inside of the Metacard dealt cart car card deal spend their time and resources doing this if there's no immediately obvious incentive for them to do so. They're not getting paid to do it. They're not. They're potentially like not. If they're not making money from the doubt, why do you do it? Why do you spend time doing it? So we do it because we believe that sure, you know, there's a lot of infrastructure missing, and so it's like, you know, building on top of something that's not existent. So, yeah, I get it. It seems kind of weird, but the fact that we are so involved into this...

...the first so it's like first mover advantage, is like we are collecting a lot of knowledge about what it takes to build a startup on the Theorem, and so that information, as symmetry, is something that would different shade us when the application layer will be built. Like Peter Pan the summer of it. I can Tel likes to say, like we are not going to wait for it too if two is going to take a long time, and you know, yeah, sure, if to with charting, with proof of Sake, I'm sure will be a thousand x faster. will be amazing, but if we wait by then we might, you know, loose touch with actual consumers, and so we are keeping this live. So, for instance, yeah, sure, maker and die. We funded our die, which we directs interest to other people like, of course, is there a huge public or market for our die? No, but maybe in the future. Yes. And actually our die, you know, we are focusing on the consumer directly, and sometimes it actually works like so, for instance, with our die, we there was a project, one by the art guys called our trees, which is actually was our die abstracted, but for the consumer it was, you know, plant trees with your interest. So you just duck a hendred dollars that you can take back at any time and once it's locked, it obstructed on countdown and die just like give the interest to trees. And so you can see number of trees, you know, going up like strening, basically, like the number of going slightly up. And so it's very interesting because that means like sure, the infrastrate is not there, but let's see some workarounds, let's hustle away and to still find ways to connect with consumers. Know what they're like and we think it's going to pay off eventually and sure, I get it. It's not mature, it's too early, but I think we learned to trunk from it. Like you know, it's so different from a normal start up. Like you cannot break things because small contracts contain real money. You have to be very goodful a boy, your updates, the auditing of the code. You have maybe to know cap some smart contracts because of the amount of money that's there, because you don't want to lose too many users, funds. Lots of practices like this that we're not taught by anyone else because we are discovering this. So sure, you know, maybe that is too early and we are boiling on top of something that's not fully fledged out yet, but where they will be. We will be like the vetters to people who are passionate enough to do this on our space time, on our spare time, betting that this will go huge and out of all the projects we are funding, I'm sure some of them will become extremely great businesses later on. I think you you sucked up quite nicely when the first thing you said it's domain expertise and informationary symetry, which, your betting will be incredible useful later on down the line. And Yeah, it really really helps people continue to work in the space as it exists today. Like those are all my opinion. I mean, I do podcast for a reason, right, it's not because it's making a munch of money. It's a very similar second yeah, I do agree. Like, I can share another learning as well. Is that what we learned? Is like, yeah, sure, we have almost no money, but all community is so powerful it's incredible. Like we like, basically, with the advance of Taos and smart contracts, pooling funds together, creating a fun as never been easier, and it's going to get even more easier. ASTAND good by. And so what can differentiate a fund compared to others? It's the power of the community. And so this is what we learned. Is Like we don't give that much money. We are not really a venture capital VC. We are a social canital vc because we give so much exposure to companies and in a space where somebody put its our scams, sometimes having the bits I can sell logo is say, okay, you know, just was backed by a lot of people who know the stuff. You know, it's noses, it's a lot of common stacks or many projects, like we know this guy's. It's a stamp of a community and that's very powerful. And we're not the...

...only one to say there's little so fair break ventures that were stating this a long time ago and now we take it. The Adventures is the reason. Like the learnings that we got. It's like community, super powerful. Building a community really helps because money is going to get easier to get. So yeah, just another learning. So like the power of community, information symmetry that we collectively gains collective due diligence on, like you know, okay, sure, so there's this project, so someone's gonna do analysis on the technical side, someone's going to do the other one, the just distribution side, marketing side, product side, all of these things we just collectively. Basically, there's like a with of the crowd emerging from the commedy. That's really amazing. And before we on the graps wisdom of the crowds, where only nonprofits like Wikipedia, for instance, who's like a massive movement. But now, with the advent of Krypto and Doos, we can make money off with all of the crowds, and so this could lead to completely unprecedented companies. That super exciting to me. Talk to you a little bit of our sponsor to show this week status and today I want to call out the many listeners who are building daps on a theorium to tell you how to get your DAB in the hands of all the status APP users. Status APP itself is a mobile web three. What's your chat browsing transact there's a lot of cool things about the status APP. Right now let's talk about the DAP explore. Status APP USES DAP DOT PS. That's referred to as Dapts as an on ramp, to use a Theorem, daps on mobile. Maybe you've heard about defy. Want to check out Kaibra swap or defy zapp will get some sen C and F load it up in your status wallet and you just dapttps DAP DOT PS to get defy on mobile. Take your decentralized, permission less finance with you. Already we're seeing tons of excitement around mobile daps and web three. If you've got a Dapt, head the DAP DOT PS. Check it out, follow the instructions for staking, get your debt ranked and featured, or email steak at dap dot ps for more information. That's really neat about the status APP DAB explore that. It automatically creates a social channel for your dat. You've got a place where status APP users can find and use your debt, but also you've got the built in private, secure chat functionality to build a community. Do Qa, Faq support or even mean building. What's that? You say you're not adapt developer. Why not status as a suite of developer tools. They get you started building, testing and deploying web three DAPS of embarked. I. Oh. You know, you see projects that raise a bunch of money in their ice seo, two thousand and seventeen, and then nothing. Some crappy wallet, maybe some Marketing Partnerships. But status is shipping the super products, Dev tools and fixing a theorium and basic peer to peer networking and communication protocols. The team is legit. I'm on it to sarchialize and open source. Check out everything they are up to at the status Networkcom or start with the status APP. At status I am get. That's status dot. I am get back to the ship. So, based on that and let's sky, US take it up a layer and talk a little bit about want of other projects, which is rocket rock n ft. This is this is a ethic, an example someone building on top of the things that Meta cartel would fund. What the hell was it and why is it there? Yeah, for sure. So actually it's I can tell was straight up funded like two day as still creation by mete catel. Like it's also like an example of like how fast it can be, and it's really awesome to see the support of the community for my project. So basically, rocket started. So rocket. The Tl Dr is that you take a loan against nft. So we take nft as collateral and we can issue loan against it. So it's an alternative to make her for instance, makeup votes, x CDP, makeup votes where you put Eith and you get die or you put USDC and you get die. This time you put a nft from an existing platform. So nft. There's a varieties of it. There is scrypto arts...

...on Super Air, for instance, like artwork took a nice. There is virtual estates like the central and culp to a box, sons, like all these virtual words, virtual words when you can buy some real estate virtually. The third one is gaming items. So, for instance, Crypto Kalies, you know, or I don't remember all the name, but like Acte infinities, for instance. So all these items and then just collectibles domain names as well. So all these tokens that represent ownership of something you can take alone against it. And so this started because I started a group chat call under clutch rized defy, because I thought that defy was great, but it's just annoying to put more money in than out, like in maker. I think like this defeats the purpose of a low and so I wanted to find some other ways to do so. And Yeah, by just, you know, trying to mix some primitives of crypto. I found out that if you mix defy, so lending boring, with nft, maybe this could be surprising. And rocket has been quite surprising so far because we've done loans of up to Twentyzero die against, you know visualistic. So it's like a virtual mortgage almost, and this was pretty cool. So I guess more like rocket is basically like a decentralized pun shop pretty much. It's like you put your ownership that you own on your theorem and you get a some money out of it. So yeah, this is what it is. That's one cool I can see that and being incredibly useful in the future. The problem that I see with it today maybe out a problem, but the difficulty I see with it today is evaluating and apts and their ability to maintain that value over specific amount of time. How do you how do you assess risk when trying to as set with trying to give out one owns for something so potentially volatile? Yeah, yeah, I agree, this is a really a common question, a great question. So the way we do it is so one way I can ask the experts. So I am pretty well connected it in the film, especially NFC space. So game collectibles, I can ask, you know, the act infinity guys or something. If I have a real estate loan. Like decentraland there is metalith, which is a company that does something called the nft index, which is literally like the SNP five hundred, but it's like a bunch of nft that out that you can buy. You can buy you a piece of the Pie for an amount of money, and so that helps pricing. decentral and tokens that we found so far are the best type of nft to lend down on rocket because sure we also learn some other things, like, you know, n's domains are very hard, because we need nft with high demand and we need nft that are somewhat stable in price. and Ya's domains. One domain name, one unique domain name, is very hard because most of the domain am my very low demand, right, like you don't. Someone proposed that like Snapshot Up Eith. I'm like cool, but like if Stachia doesn't want to do it, then it's purely speculation. So we need nfts that have some value outside of the pure speculation so that we are less risky in the assessment of it. So yeah, I would say expert hurts. Then I can also have some stats on websites. So, for instance, going back to decenter and because it's such a great collect role type, there's some website just reversing every sale of every parcel and what is the price and what is the average price? So I know, for instance, like a descenteron parcel is between five hundred dollars and nine hundred, and so then when someone came up to me with four harded parcels, I was like okay, well, this has to be, you know, probably for hard thousand dollars, which is an enormous amount of money. But because the mand is so low, we are going to valuate less because it's a bundle first of all, and because the dement is really low at very high prices because...

...they are not many whales willing to buy it. And so we got this loan of for Horrd Dionadication, of for her and twenty one parcels and we said, okay, let's value it at a hard thousand dollars, because probably people will buy it at that low price, lower price compared to like the individual. So yeah, it's a lot of it's. It's not, you know, really rational. There's lot of speculation. How do we deal with expectation in volutility? Easy, we just do very short term loans. So it's six months. So we ask ourselves, okay, is that plut is this platform going to be around in the next six months? Likely, yes, six months is pretty short time frame. Another thing we can do is, for instance, n FC that can resist the platform, for instance, Crypto Arts like crypto artist, which do nfte art, which is pretty much like a you know, like a very fancy gift. Well, in this case they don't care if superher, the platform hosting them, shuts down. They can just move to open see or whatever platform. So wow, okay. So Up to art actually is a bit more durable as Nft, so we have more confidence in it. But again, you know, art is very rational and really hard surprise. So of course it's yeah, it's not a science, but we're getting better at it. All right. So you take custody of the NFT in obviously like like, the bank takes your title for your home and it keeps it. But the bank is bound by a rule of law that is not present in the cryptospace. I pay back this lone plus interest. So let's just say I put a Onezero. I get a Onezero loan, because apparently I can't scratch up Onezero and for a piece of virtual property and some sort of world or maybe a cryptocalty or domain name, and I expect pay that loan back plus interest. And so I let's just say, in the end I owe like, you know, Onezero, one hundred fifty, and then I wind up defaulting on this loan. I don't pay it back. Whatever reason. I'll pay it back. You still own this nft. Yeah, we get WHOA. What do you do with it too? Let's say I do pay it back. How do I have a guarantee that you're going to give me the title to this, this this piece of property, because I don't have up safety guarantee and cryptospace should. So one. What happens if we don't pay back? We liquidated on open see the entire NFT and right now it's actually because we are going to safe route. The NFT is actually worse more than the loan. So it's a real deterrent for people to defaults. So hopefully the person repays back. If they don't, we are probably liquidated entirely. This is what we're going to do. We've never done it so far, but maybe, you know, with the crisis right now, we might liquid it. It's a liquate some and so yes, so liquid on open see. It's a bit that. I think it's fourteen days after like the highest bidder just wins it. Maybe we could do some bundles if, like, the volume is huge. It's like every month, you know, we take all the NFTS, we do a bundle of up to thirty two NFT ON Open C and we mass liquidated at the huge bundle price so that you know, it's more liquid the market. We want to buy a bundle of them because there must be some good one in the lot right. So that's the first question. The second question, which is white if we pay back. How am I sure? Well, we are not sure right now. I am really going to lead start of way, which is you have still some trust involved. It's not a fully trustless smart contract system. But what we are doing to mitigate this is we have a nose. It's more TASIC. Multi sick knows it's a nurses safe, more TASA. And actually, just like I think three days ago or they just don't found the NFT integration. So it was already possible on the sparkle truck side, but now it's even like a fancy button on the website. And so we have a multi sig of three of six, meaning...

...that we are we have six accounts. I own two of them, so that this is like full transparency of like the details of high works. I own two of them. So that means like I need one colluder if I want to steal a n ft like keep it and not transferred. And so any transfer out of that multi sick has to get stree out of six. So and the six people are known, they are pretty with worthy. So it is like employee of Avy. So there's like a huge boring landing platform, a theorem. There's Peter Band, someone of metactel. There is the exact developer publicly available that information? If it's somewhere that informatable? No, it is not. I'm telling you right now for transparency. But it is true that we said that we migrate to a Multi Sake. So first he wasn't right. First it was just me on my account made a mask rocket big. Like technically this is again annoying. It's it's kind of it's kind of hell. These these projects grow as they start with someone, they grow at a bigger more than six, and then batually becomes about exactly. And then we got the you know, a hard thousand dollar alone and did it. was like, I am never giving this to you if it's not in a more secure place. So okay, sure, we did a multi SIG and so holding it. It's with the multi singman that we can receive it, you know, no authorization needed, but when we need to give it back, we to have an authorization. So it's nice because then like this less there's more double checking for you know, if you could the wrong't addressed. That's nice. So that's what we don't make mistakes take in a little. Well, sure, but you need you need people colluding together, and it's less likely than myself, for instance. So yeah, let's this. This is a good model for what we have right now and I understand the lean part and I'm not trying to criticize. I think you've done it well. I think that makes sense for what the world is right now. But I want to point out a criticism. That is a barrier to global adoption and any sort of real financial system, and that is if you into other people die, all of the NFT's are locked up. Yeah, pandemic being a great example of how that could explore. Just lose your private keys, which is something that can very easily happen. Correct. Right. So the lack of the lack of two three people, mean you and two others are, you know, out of the picture for this ISAS this isn't a rocket nft issue, this is a this is a fundamental issue, a multisick issue. Yeah, yeah, and so this is why we have this bet mess. I'm just pointing out a general issue here. I'm not trying to criticize again. I'm just letting that out there. These are the kind of problems we need to solve if we're going to have any sort of adoption in any way. And the only way I could think the solve it is the same way the banks basically solved, and that's the corporations own it. There's a legal system involved and there's some sort of way to vault and reclaim these keys in a secure way. Is when there cryptographically secure if those keys disappear somehow. I I don't necessarily agree with that option. I think it's a route forward, but I would prefer novel cryptography that solves it in a way that does it require as many humans right. Well, what recovery options? Split it up into a thousand pieces and distributed across the world? I need certain number that. It's more like. Still have a very similar kind of problem, you know. Yeah, it's the same crypto narrative of like the whole purpose of everything we're doing here is distributing power is best we can amongst humans, so that one person can control too much or like too few humans can control too much, and cryptography is just a facilitator for a lot of that type stuff. Multisick is an implementation of a certain type of photography that allows us to distribute access control to a subset of a larger set. There's better ways to do this in the future, right, I think. In so like okay, rocket is a pretty simple projects. And so actually it is so simple. That is said of a most I say we could have set up a smart contract that we actually have on test that right now. It's...

...just like the volume is not high enough for us to move to a smart contract. But the essentially the small contect solution would be a trust less NFC votes, just like maker is trust less, like you know, you you you should be able to secular eith out at any time against your die maker. There's no human there, and so we could build a trust less n FC volts. Actually, this is what sun try Fooz has been doing. So such FRIS is like a nft fungibal lace zader or something like this is different. Realize they've fungibalize n Ft. that's a word. I's a new word, and if people so like they take a business in voice and they create a nft out of it, that's worth like, let's say, facts and discount of the business in voice. So like if it's like a thousand dollar business, in voice, they can frigibilize it for nine hundred and fifty die. So they take fifty die of profit and then that person can ticket to die on, make her whatever. So Short nft votes make you trust less. That's one solution. But this is because rocket is simple and, as you said, this is a fundamental, fundamental question for all projects and some projects are more complex than rocket. And by definition this team needs some humans and some more TASIC. We've seen this recently, right with the BCX hack. They needed human intervention to pose the contract, otherwise they hattack her. The attacker were just gonna, you know, attack the contract. It runs out of money. So and if you look at there's a very great, you know, podcaster slash youtuber called Chris Black. He's done a spread sheets of every single information. If you could find on the Mainz five projects, what this stack, the technical stack, is for security, if known, because you know, being transferred with the or technical stack is also poor upset because it's like okay, now we know that these people can be had that way. So, you know, it's weaker upset. So and we can see that the mains five projects actually have all the MOTASSIC. And is it the safest way? No. Can we make it more complex to make it safer? Perhaps, for instance, social key recovery, which Argent has done, which is like okay, you know, one person dies, well, that person, that's an representation. It's not my favorite. Yeah, yeah, so there's the sort key recovery. The second option is simply, you know, recovery account. So if no action was taken for a hard days, move the funds to another account. That's maybe another motasic with competely different people, and so then you would need twice as many people to die, which now is a lot of people. That a lot of dead people to make it weaker. So we can find turn arounds. But like going through the legal system, I'm not to much a fan off because we build ether to fork the legal system. Literally we don't want to go through the normal legal routes. Otherwise, what is the point of blockchain if it's not securing with month contracts? We still want the on chain finality and, you know, ultimate sets them a layer. We don't want the government to be the ultimate sets of a layer. theium has its own government. No, and it's it's proven that the the I don't know this is getting philosophical out there, but I think it's a little I think there is a middle ground here and that's what we're actually striving for. I think this ideal that there will be no human intervention is just bunkers exactly. I think the idea that there will be, well, I guess you kind of did say that. Yeah, but the idea that there will be no legal intervention is equally as bunkers. On make a correction. I think it's, in my opinion, of the ideology of etherium for atting Phil Soft player is legal intervention is an option, not a mandatory. It's great. Always there's really associated with not this it. Of course, of course, that's enough to say. Is that? Is that the only way that you're gonna get financial institutions to adopt the the centralized world is to integrate a risk model that is acceptable to them, and not the other way around. You cannot expect them to come on board with a risk model that is this detached from, you know, all...

...the things that these corporations are attached to. And so it's going to be. We're going to need a diverse fire risk models here. Essentially, I you look, I said your system works well. It is fundamentally correct. What you said is absolutely works for what you're doing. However, you know in the end we're going to want bigger amounts of money. We're going to but want bigger things than what we currently have. We not just treading CRYPTO kiddies. We want to trade houses and, you know, Vang go paintings. You know we want to. We want to, you want to do auto, airplane parts and pharmaceuticals, watch them flow through the the supply chain. Right. These are all things we're going to eventually want with these kind of systems and we're not going to be enabled for that unless we also talk about legal compliance, and the diversity of NFT's benefit is really strongest in those cases. I really do appreciate the virtual commodities sector, don't get me wrong, but there a proof of concept for what we really want, which is to live a food to people's homes, medicine to people's homes, improve our efficiency in repairing parts and goods in and are in our failing infrastructure. These are all the kind of dreams we're looking for. They're not going to happen without a legal respondal. Also associated with the leak super what's word for it? Non Legal Respondel like like it's a tangential model. So I'm kind of curious. How do you feel about that? Anyway, I commently agree. I think you know, talking about Criptin natives. The reason why it just could really give again is to be lean startup style. But of course the real thing would be derivatives of physical assets that could be lent against. Right, if you could lend led your own house and then, as a collateral, gain a mid and die against it, that would be an amazing for most people because you get the money straight away, way faster than banks. Way that the rates. Of course that's the vision. Then, sure, the legal system. I'm not saying you know, I'm a rebel and I don't care about legal system which to be Inter rebebable with it, I agree, but they are many solutions we are building right now. So there is clears courts, which basically is disput resolution in Crypto ony theorem. There's also arragon court doing this as well, when there will be some judges on chain and the majority voting and stuff. I think the huge majority of cases can be resolved on chain by humans. And Yeah, sure, for things that take financial regulation, like the SEC, the CFCC and the others, we can interoperate with some smart contracts, like what we take tell ventures or even the allow by open low have been doing, which is there is, for instance, like the example of the doubt. So there is a doubt. It's a molog vt doubt. But sure, the summer, I think, has some super admin functions in the smart contract that, you know, the crypto anarchist would not like, but this is needed for the government. So we can make some compromise, compromise we can. You know, there's a middle ground here for sure. So if they are some decent intromability with the government and if we can find ways to satisfice book both parties, then it's nice. But it's good to try as much as we can to push, I think, the Crypto, the crypto envelope as far as we can, because there are a lot of things we can do to save a fund, for instance, like the nose is Moti, sick, dead, handled I think, billions of dollars so far and we know it's very safe to could have been audited, battle tested. So should the governments be really worried about people losing well, not really. I think if a multisig is safe enough and secure enough and there's a lot of signatory people, he should be should be good enough to go and the government should not need be to risk adverse with it. WELLT's see. I think you both said it yourself right like,...

...in the current landscape and where we are on the timeline of what this technology could potentially do, we're not. It behooves us to experiment and try and figure out what we can do with the available technology puzzle pieces in a very open and innovative format, as opposed to trying to constrict it to regulation right now, because we need to figure out the best way to move forward so that when it does become universally standardized and we have the larger players coming in to start tacking on real money to these things that make incredibly larger world impact. It needs to be something that works, or at least works at the scale it needs to, and gives the proper like, security, privacy, auditibility guarantees that they require, and we want before like, but before let like really really like ossifying how it works, and we're not there yet. I think we'd all agree that we're not there yet. Well, up, we are getting there, though, because the baseline protocol, which I haven't looked too deep into, seems to be very awesome because it's about moving the enterprises, the big institutions to if your mainet, because so far all the private block chains by big enterprises and companies are kind of useless in my opinion, like it's kind of a hot sake, but if you build your own notes and your own servers, then this is just and cooked to database, and so it doesn't change much. But I get it. It's a proof of concept to then migrate to the theorem block chain, which is what based Basin Protocol has been doing, and I think the key feature here is privacy. We didn't have privacy before, and so now and then the price blockchain has a trustless system so that they can put their private data, supply chain information, tracking and everything, and it's secured by the protocol and it's verifiable and actually you cannot mess with the data anymore, which in a private blockchain environment you could still do right, like we've seen steam it, I think you know, acquired by Tron and then turned over to just in some because he took to his friends like just a deligated proof of stake with like too few valid dators and which is the same for private blockchains, do not make much sense to me. So, yeah, sure, it's we're not there yet, but slowly migrating to an open public block chain with the privacy and the security requirements that they I suppired to would be awesome for me because, yeah, sure, it's for both concepts on both end right same. For me, my coup to a native experiments. They are, you know, very small, but these day work on the pulling book chain and on the other end that these people are dealing with actual stuff. That would actually matter, but right now it's not really put with the anything. So I hope these two words mounted together in the coming years we can the what you just said. I think could be in an entirely another podcast based on me. Me and Colin both have larger enterprise experience. I've probably sold a lot of my previous views based on that experience. Collin still works and I say one foot in, would foot out, but I don't know like that. That whole conversation is very deep and very long and I think we might want to like have you back on or someone else to flush it out? Gone how to feel about that? Yeah, that's one. As long as like a chill of us so that this as possible now. But on Collins, a pro senior engineer for for Ava labs such as the avalanche project, and I work nice and I work at status. But yeah, I think that's a great way to wrap up. Is there any questions that you wished we would have asked you that we didn't before we get to help people contact you.

HMM, I would say, like, what are you changing due to these events? Because sure, like I don't want to make this podcast to time dependent, but there's kind of virus right now and it should like touch a lot of projects in the coming year, and so my answer to that potential question that been yes, we are kind of changing right now. You know, do people care when they want food and you know, testing and healthcare? Do they care about India nft? Probably not, and so this is why we are moving more towards the mainstream, perhaps touching on things that we are used to in Crypto that people did not so remote managing remote communities, managing remote communities and paying them, because it's when metal that has done right, it's like a remote community. We don't pay ourselves, but we paid projects. So this is like managing a remote first fund. I think this experience, however, is useful to people, and so this is what I think we are going to transition too. With the financial crisis on going and everything is that we are looking to see what in our learnings we can share two people. That's useful right now, because short, doubt and FTE, all of these concepts are very, you know, the long end vision of Crypto. So we're trying to focus on, you know, what's useful today right. Yeah, calling anything else? No, thanks for coming on. I am curious. What's got you a really excited about the space, other than what you're currently working on? What projects have you not mentioned that you think me a good shout out? I put you any some good shout out. I would say I'm a big Fan of what can I talk about? I would say Dama. So, as I just said, you know, I'm not sure. I mean maybe Du's Dumba to mainstream and like your audience brain knows it, like you know, it's like obstructed. Save these account I feel like we've interviewed darn about how to check, but I actually got interviewed by Dharma and I think to thousand and eighteen early, and then I wrote a Cdeo for them and then denied my application. Ha Ha. Well, I would say I really like modern protocol, which is like anyone can do an index fond. So I would say, yeah, bullish on de Fides. Like the number one thing for me to right now is defy. Doubt. Is Great, and FT is great, but I would say it defies the number one thing right now that matters to the world, and so allocating funds perhaps to healthcare, imagencies and stuff like this could be very useful. And so do I have a shout out to give? Well, yeah, I would say I would say said Dama. Then what else? There is centrifuge, who is trying to create a new way to take real assets and issue alone against it, and I think they're parting with maker. Might be announced soon or it's been already announced, but it's kind of open anyway to two announcements like this. So I would say coaching out center Foois if you're interested in the themol there. Awesome, man, that's great. Thanks, comming show. Thank you so much,.

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