Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 81 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #81- Unstoppable Domains Brad Kam

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Unstoppable Domain is a crypto blockchain domain company and browser maker that connects users to .crypto domain names on the Ethereum blockchain. These human-readable domain names allow users to be able to connect any cryptocurrency address to receive payments or to establish a censorship-resistant website.

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Wol enteringit Cind et work welcome to hashing it out apocast forretalk to the teck intovators behind blocked in introstructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds tigured at Wyand how peoplebuild this technology. The problems they face along the way come, listenand learn from the best in the business. You can join teir, renks Oer back to another interview ofHashnit out a always on er host Tok, ocore, petty and today we were to talkabout unstoppable domains and we brought on Bratley Cam cofounder of theplatform to help us help, walk us through and answer questions that I mayhave about what unsabable nomains is andwhat it seeks to do and how it difernithets itself so bradly I wecomethe show. Won't you start off by doing the normal thing telling us kindof howyou got inother space and and preventure US o Wat, unstopp,unstoppable domain scons for sure I thinks thsforhaving me uh,so I got into the CIRTOS base. I moved to San Francisco in two thousand andtwelve in order to work on a marketing software company, nothing to do withCripto, but I moved into a Bitcoin Hacker House called twenty mission inSan Francisco and it was like thirty people. They were shooting horror movies when Ifirst moved in there because the building was like falling apart andlike, basically not it didn't actually look like realresidents were there. There was a call to the police at one point saying therewere a bunch of squatters there and we're like no we're actually payingrigtit was kindo crazy, but the second the second bioint exchange in the. U Swas Launhon our basement pretty much everbthere. I was working on a on acrto project of some kind. A couple of years later vitalic gave atalk in our courtyard before a theory and even launched. So I was fortunate Imoved to San Francisco Hend. I basically just fell down the rabbithole Yo, no, maybe maybe two or three weeks after I got there. Um Docrpo wasthe cloest thing. I'd ever seen and started playing with it, buying it playing around with ideas and justkinda couldn't stop thinking about it. evever since then, how Owt F the worlddid you fall into that house? I had A. I was very fortunate. I had agood friend who had who had just moved there. He had been living thisrelatively relatively nice life in in the Richmond he broke up with hisgirlfriend and moved into this place may think it was like the eight orninth person there and he was the only person I knew in San Francisco, so hesaid come here, so I did Funny Hoa Works Out. Sometimes e getthe right mon o the right top. Actually, I think a lot of the people that I'veinterviewed that have been around for a very long time. It's Kinda got asimilar start as, like. I just happened to be in the right spot, t the righttime, Oround, the right people and whats interested by the tech, and hereI am it'sit's, pretty wild B'cause. It doesneed to you know I mean it sounds so improbable cripto does, and so it does.You know to some extent it does sort of require, or it's helpful if Um, youknow, if somebody somebody advocates, and so that happened to me and then Iread the White Paper and kind of went down that that normal path- and here we are, let's talk about a saple theman. It'slike why why an aming system or what is at firstoff what is unstoppable Domans like Haw, doesn't work? Was it do yeh, so INSI appll domains is a domainregistry. We're similar to like dotcom, except for our domain registries, areon block chains. They are not part of the TRUDITIONAL DN system. Domains arepart of Smart Co, tracts and ther'r...

...stored inside of your wallet with yourprivate key. So, for example, we have a Dacrypto, regedistry and domains R, ERC,seven twenty one tokens, so you store them inside of your etherium wallet andcurrently you are set up to be work with both the Zilican Network,antatherium, a Dotzal Ado, cripto top level domain that people can registerdomains under IES. That me, I so Azylica are youstill using Thet Yrs, seven twenty one standard and and it's like whateversmart contracting imipitations on Silica, so we have a separate Registra, dod Zilon there's Aloka Barkchain and the way the best way to think about it is thatthe block chain is your or asset registery and then so you're issuingdomain names on the block chain and then you're attaching records. Justlike you would like a DNS record to your domain na, but you're writing thatmecord to the block chain, and then people are using the block chain as thesource to go and look up the record associated with Yrourh Domaia. So ifyou Haatritia a name, you type it in you hit, you go through a theories ofpaths and then eventually you get the the DNS tes pervers will give you theappropriate record here. You just go rethethreein Buck, cam or Ilik a bluckchain, and you find the record. So it's replacing the dinesscovers with theblockchain as, like your public database, uh t' ton of tiof things e ango into here, hopeful we wuln get to all of them, tis W. I guess we're. Luckily enough, I think we've had taishoon from name base,which is the handshake, basically the UM interface to the handshake, one ofthe inerfaces of the handshake partogall to register Um, Hnds domainswhich or which, which is a way to do docentralize top lovele domains. Thisisn't necessarily the same here, but it's sort of the same vein of of a naming system and the routing associated with howcomputers do look. UPS With Human R, human, readable text to something that's not necessarily human,readable or not easily human, human redable and then applying assets to thosethings is, is a very interesting and hard problem, especially when you tryto add Cencor, sup rersistence like why. Why bill the new one, when we havesomething like ens for a theorum yeah, it's a good question, so we, thefirst the first demoproduct that we ever built was a registrar of fourdunties. So we were inspired by Datif, we love the project and the thought wasthat uh we wanted to try different things witha register stresse regustry strategy. So we had a couple of a couple of innovations that we thoughtwere missing from the marketplace. One of those was tha domain names, don'tneed subscriptions, so if you buy a domain name, you own itforever. Thereis no subscription and the reasonwhy we wanted to eliminate srubscriptions is because there havebeen issues where the registry can raise prices or even potentially raise prices tosuch a point that you would lose the DOMAINMI. So we thought that theconcept of subscriptions was introducing a potential h potential censorship risk,whereas if you own your domain name forever, it doesn't actually matterwhat happens to onstopll domains anymore. So once you have one of ourdomain names, you don't need to care about the health or wealth ofunstofpable domains. Again you all you need to care about. Is The etheor andblockchain essentially Um? So that's one thing: We also introduced this concept ofmulticurrency payments. This hadn't...

...existed previously, where the way itworks is is that I have my dcte domain and I can attest my bioin. My theory Ummy like going all mycrop to addresses to this one domain, and then you canpay me inside of wallets so right now this works inside of trust wall at myyeath or Wallat, my Cripto, many others, where you could pay me in dozens ofdifferent currencies all to Brad do Cripto, and this is something thatdidn't exist until we built it. So we have a lot of respect for Dady than weinclude them in our tools, but we had some new ideas that we wanted tointroduce thimto the market, and we think that Yo, the market is better forthat. Now that there's now that there's kind of two versions-but you don't really need to choose tools- tend to support both of us. Whynot preducarly in this space? It really it's really much more about trying toprovide an alternative to dianas absolutely kind. I was curious aboutkind o. The differenciating features with inonstopful oveyance, like, likeyou, said, to kind of pay anything with. How has that work? Is that, like anintegration with dcisialize exchanges, or are you routing to various keys? Howdoes someone send what's the mechanism in which someonesins payment to say, cort, Peti Dacripto and a ghost in it, and it'sautomatically routed based in the assess that sed? So it's actually really it's it'sreally simple. What's happening is you are assigning a message with theprivate key, the controls that domain name and you're writing the addrep o ablockchange? So if you were to go look up Brad Da Cripto on the block chain,you would see VTC equal address, LTC equals address,et cetera and so a wallet when I type in bread, Dow Criptdo, a wallet reads:The Block Chain Finds The associated address and drops into the Sinfield. Soif I'm in trust, wallet and I type in Rad Dec do into the BTC field, it knowsto go and grab my BTC address same thing. If I go into Liwonfield, so it'sreally just a lookup, a look up on the block Cain and the therian black chainis acting as your. Your public database look up for Freez OCR, so the client isstill um responsible for crafting appropratetransaction depending on the asset yeah, but all they're doing is Ithey're making a request to the wcin itself. It's a great registr to find Uminformation based on an individual and the addresses they'd like to be paid atfor various whatever, whatever they want. What what else is availableoutside of like what kind of records can you addto a specific um domain? So the idea is, is that is at the twoprimary usecases right now are payments and websites? So you can attach youknow any ctocurrency address, that's for the payments use case, but you canalso attach your IPFs ash for your website and so one of the other thingsthat, I think is you K, ow. I think w Ote Ofe, the other things that we focuson a lot as a company that I think we felht was somewhat missing from themarket. Previously. Oure tools to make this stuff easy, soone stopolld Domaines dtcom, is like a new version of a registarer where youcan inside of Rui, go and add addresses sin, a message with a private key andwrite cripto dresses to the block chains. You can set up your Domaininthis way. You can also attach your ipfshash there's. Also tools too, witha couple of clicks and a little editor launch your own IPFs website veryeasily. We have an extension where you can h view Docorto websites and Dodzowebsites inside of goole chrome. So it's this sort of broader tool set ofthings to make all of this stuff easy Um, let's kind of get back down to thewebsites to the we to what do you actually write to your domain name?It's Cripto addresses and Hashes, pretty eteie storage. That's Kinda, like toling, isdefinitely something I want to get into...

...here, because one congratulations onthe recent announcement of the partnership with opera themthemfacilitating resolving dot cripto addresses withinwith the search bar. That's that's fantastic because when I made berriesof intury is popular tooling, that people use that they don't understuullyunderstand is just what's available to them. Um, allowing them to get accessto this space tout having to download abunch of extensions like like native integration of these things that makeit t make wet thre discoverable, and it's things like that that definitelyhelp people access this content withouthaving to add a bunch of steps right. It feelslike doing the same thing with the watchi steps and so like. I guess Iguess wit something like an opera, atigration or native integration. Theyjust type in your name, Bat, Crypto or I'm Assumyn cound do some of themainstoo is ECD. Yes, sub demands are SOM. Demands aresupported a and the real idea. I so opera is eighty million. It's only oneenjroyd so far, but it's still eighty million monthly acivvisers. So this isyeah. So this is the you know. This is kind of the biggest step forward. Iwould say for the desentialized web so far. This is the biggest o opening upfor native Decentas web experience, and so you can go in right now. You cantype in Maethawala da Cripto and you can interact with the full mytherwalidapplication on the dessentialized web. You can type it into the upper browser.You can also go to Kibeno Corto and you can interact with the CIBROPROTOCOL anddo desentralize exchange. These are the types of thing that you know make they desentialized webs sitpowerful like these are. These are daps that are attempting to be censorship,resistent, but they previously had this this DNS or this this AMIS on Webserrice is problem. They don't have to have those problems anymore, yeah at's!It's a VAT issue with Mo many conversations that I've had with Um people who are building alternativenaming systems outside of DNS. Is that Um? How do you get people to quever? Theright name servers to get res to get to get whatever they're using to resolvecorrectly right cause, I say. For instance, you use your standard ISP GIV,an name service, it's a regular DNS name server and you want no quer thestuff. Your Browser's going to be IE, don't know what that is, it's nothing,so you don't get anything back, and so you have to have that additionaltooling and infrastructure um available readily available, so that any anybodywho's interested could just type in the address and it resolves appropriatelyuntil that happens, it's it's relegated to the enthusius like me, and you torun around mainservers to you knowdownload extensions and do it forour friends and families R, and to alsuffer our friends and family, andthat's been a very large barrier of ventry. Since the birth of all of thistechnology is the infrastructure and tooling associated getting people touse it quickly easily. I agree. I agree. I think it's a hugeproblem. I think the thing that has been really positive, though, that we'veseen from the market is that browsers are already looking at this stuff. YouO we've seen a lot of browsers in a great ethereum, for example, iave seena lot of them looking at I pfs, so we've seen them trying to Tryi to get these networksplugged into their software. Even for other reasons, you know so like opera,for example, they started with a wallet Thot. It was their first Ponos and thenokay, orority reading the therium Bok Chan Wow. It's actually not going to bethat much harder to also resolve resolt websites yeah, but for anyone who spent any reason alountof time trying to quer the block chain and pull information from it, it kin ofsucks, it's not fun. Jjsarpyse is not amiddable to cashing.We have services like...

...if you're a cloud flayr running proxiesthat brunt a bunch of kind of middle wear to help make that look up faster,but it's kind of going back in the direction of centralization Ar do yousee any improvements m with this infrastructure and tooling,and the space coming up that that moves away from this kind of OA call acentralization risk, but definitely it's it's there's their centralizationin terms of how people access information, not necessarily wor theinformation store. Sure I think this is, and I would saythat just in general, you know philosophically, like you know, wothink that people should be. People should be looking up stuff directly onthe block chain that it's not it's not ideal, to have those types of those types of things in the middle,but at the same time I also think that the world is likely going to have a lotof different versions simultaneously. You know so, just like you know, we'vegot bit coin. It censorship resistant. You know a lot of us. You Know StoreBick coin with our own private key, but some of us four reasons of convenience or other things like that-might use a custodian for some portion or whatever for some period of timethat doesn't negate all the value of boid coin, and I think the same is kindof true for a lot of these. These gateways, like it may be thatwhat you're going to want to have is you're going. Ta Want to have h some IPFs you're Gongna want to havesome level of Distributis procype, fs nos to make sure that your content isfully distributed, but not everybody with an IPFs node and their browser.Actually, looking up Tho content directly themselves, they might use agayway for eatinconvenience, but they know that, even if that Gayway were togo down, they still have a maybe a clunkier but still censorship,resistent backup. So I think there's just a lot of different versions of theworld that can coexist Um, but we are very excited about this ideaof, for example, people having IPF s modes inside of their browsers, and weactually lost our own browser as kind of a demo for the market that has anipnote inside of it. If you were to go to, you know brand, do Cripto, and you,like my website, you can, with one click, turn on the node and store andshare that website to the network. So basically the more popular O my websiteis the more people are fans of it. The more detentioalistd it becomes.Andifaso you've bade a browser details on t the textsack of thisbrowser ecause. It's running I knowinthe side of it, which means teadlike if I t go on Te roadsite Um Braddat Crypto, which is a nit which isoscenco the Ip fs Hash, and I I retrieve that thing. I can then pinintmyself to that increase its availability across the ID of s networkand atthat's. That's a massive thing that needs to be done because Um reliability of information across a unincentivized network, because Palcornis not watched yet its very difficult. You can't, unless you pin it yourselfand then what's H, t's. What's the reason right, so you need moreaccessible content to give you better data viability, which is something likewhat you just said: Browsers that have nose in front of them and based onpeople liking them sharing with the burden of of hosting those things or orincreasing their availability across the network. You talkd about what thatbrowser is and hows built yeah. So it's a it's a chromium forkand we just we jit's it's open source. Anybody isanybody is free to forkget play with it, build off of it. We're not attemptingto be a browser company. This was meant to be kind of a developer tool and anexample to the browser market. So we we we, we built an IPFs node inside Iinside there and then really. The only other feature that we introduced wasthis idea of the voluntary, the voluntary pinning and we were trying toshow that there there are other h dynamics, besides puremonetariancentivization, to incentivize...

...content to get on a lot of differentnotes and we're already seeing content creators that were talking. They weretalking with wanting to offer this where, for example, they might say,like you know, here's my video m and have like here's, my like d centralize,you know you too B'cause. You hoohve been having all these issues recentlywhet they'vebeen taken down crypto creators where they can put theircontent up on the desentialized web and they can charge for it. But maybe ifyou, if you're willing to be a node and serve that up, then you get a discountor you get it free or whatever. So there's all kinds of interesting waysto create incentives that don't necessarily require Um. You know pay this node. You know ten cents orwhatever yethat's that'Si. Personally speaking, I work for a company that isactively looking into building out these services and making it thebackbote of our network right having having a web through a dus top WI, freebrowser and wallet, and so O and so forth. Um is part of the main stay ofwhat we're trying to do, and so I would like I'll probably be looking at at usto see how it's done and and been asking me questions outside of this.But I, how do you I feel like having a registry that has so much linkto it Um as a few potential gauches in terms of how thatinformation is used and who controls it at? What points likethe unstocpold domains definitely gives an insinuation that people can't take it down as a largeamount of censorship resistance. Are there weak points in this e in theprocess of purchasing a domain? At what point is it mine and no one else cantake it and no one else can manipulate it and take it back for me or or change the records that I haveassociated with him. So youve got two steps: You've gotpurchase and then you've got claim, and so in the span of two minutes you canbuy the domain and then claim it to your wallet once that transaction hasgone through on the etherium blocktain and you have the domain in your wallet.That's it nothing. Enstop domains can do that's a nears. What he's talkingand my wallet that is no longer a part on ha platform, er C, seven, twenty one token, yeah,sorry! What D I say! Twenty is yea E. Definitely not thatyes year, seven, seven, twenty one h! These are no nonplungible tokens andso your you'R Y R, typically users, are storing them inside of Medowmask, butsome users use like the DAP browsers, which have good Ui for Um for enf ts.You know so like CNIN base wall, truswallet, there's several severalothers that are great, but that's what we encourage. So, basically, once youbought the domain, you put it ins out of a self cusdy wallet, hopefully onethat you already use and ar comfortable with, and that's it years, ire great and then you have toyou can basically use the contracts that are on boared to look up theregistrations and resolve whatever 's associated with it, yeah and and does don't depend on useither. Those are those are on the block chase, the Registri's already onthe block chain. Anyone can just go and read the block chain find the records.If you, the user, wrote those re associated those specifiic records withyour domain name. That's your choice. Anybody can read it. That's theirchoice. I'm curious about Um the associated risk with that registery intend two ways. One is something Ialready alluded to, which I could back here on a second, the other one is thecontrol and security profile of that registrate, like let's Tay, forinstance, the Paroty Buck, a parity, Malti sic bug where, like the you, noall th, all the multisix ere worked great, but the library that theydepended on got nute at which basically locked away all that either. Is there such a situation? Where saythe controller of the registrate? U Can nukeit change ownership change changeit? Can it be self destructed so that...

...the registrer goes away which toes likelolks away all the value associated with it it's impossible and we we we built itin such a way that that is impossible because we didn't we. The whole pointhere was to deliver a product that was a censorship, resisin domain name, andso we built it in such a way that it really does not matter what we decideto do with the registery. The one thing we can do with the registry is we canturn it off in the sense that it can't meant nedomates. That is a power thatwe have in case. There were some issues, but it still doesn't change whathappened to existing tomit there're, several hundred thousand dumans outthere. There is nothing we can do, even if we were to turn off futureminting, which is something we would only do in extreme cases. If we thoughtthere was a bug or whatever else Um, but even that doesn't affect users thatalready have domain names, and so that was that was by design. Has that gonethrough any type of security on it to help to help give some more confidenceand reassurance around those like security guarantees, I o' a securityentiner. So I think about these things, not stop sorry o yeah, Theye, they're, great quencons,and we yeah. We had multiple security audits Um. We have a one professionalone that was that we published and were happy tohappy to happy to share that sort of stuff elude mysel yeah, partly because I'm interested I justlike looking at these things in Otherwois, because L I work forproducts that would like to implement stuff like this, so we need to beforeimflementing anything into our product. I need to make sure that, like theusers of of what we do can safely integrate, this feature, Anto Wa and allow them tostart using it and not really have any worries about whether or not thatfeature Wi'll ever not work as intendent. Youknow what I mean and so like I ask these questions, not not only formyself but for anyone who's thinking about trying to integrate somethinglike onoamo, the mains that, like once it's theirs and hen, theire wallet itstairs in in their wallet. I think it's super important. It's asuper important question. 'cause. I think one of the things that you wouldask yourself as developer is: is you know how future proof is this system Um,you know, can I you know, can I rely on it in in five years, ten years timewhatever? So I think those are. Those are great questions. I think those areI I understand why you wouldn't want to move forward without those things andwe've weve found this as we've been working with wallets that you know we,we do wind up going through a pretty serious security vediew, especiallywith the larger ones, where they're looking closely at the tect beforethey're willing toe Yo. W The same. For the reasons you mention, I mean peopleare sending money with these things. People are H, you know, building webpresences like its important stuff hen, they'rever lying on that look up towork as intended, especially if they're hosting criticaly, fro structure or erpopular sites. They don't Wat, Mace Ual these things can't be rerounded tosomething else, or take it over changed and so and so forth, and so that,having that type of inguarantee ven from my opinion, building mainingsystems like this is, if done properly, inherently more secure than traditionalones. Um, because, like signing certificates, you get rid of C as youget rid of all these, like kind of Ad Hawk intrastructure that we built thatmakes the Internet work today as it works with something that's natively usingcryptography in a way. That's particularly usefulfor UM proving ownership and maintaining assets. I mean C, as are gone, custodians are gone and the Custodian thing is quite a bigdeal like you know you can have you know your d Ns y, you can have your Dnsregisteror get hacked. You could have them make an accidental update. Thatcauses an issue Um. They could, you know, react to a court order and shutyou down. There's so many different and...

...h different ways that that system canfail, currently siding olders Wan. To like s say it wassomething like name Base Right M. I sorry like handshake Um, which is dicentralized top level domainregister. So I N, I can get like got petty or Dot Cory or got whatever dot,hashing it out and then build sub domains and andhierarchcl sobe domains on that. How do you get them to not make a dot criptoand then start fighting you for that top level, Omain and the infrastructurethat resultes it I mean, I think in general, namingsystems have had this problem around collisions, and I you, broadly speaking, the way that weshould view it as a community. He is there's no reason to collect. There'sonly fifteen hundred tot demainxtentions out there there's aboutfour Um bloc, chaine domain registries, andit's not in anyone's interest to have collisions and even worse. It wouldactually otentially harm millions of users who currentlycan send money using using decropto or dudzille domains, and they couldenintially send it to the wrong address. So it would be a massive harm tomillions of crypto users. If that were to happen, so I think that you knowwe're lying on the judgment. Of course, of you know, of of people who you know not do something that could be.You know pretty socially destructive, but at the same time, it's more aboutinagrtions, so you're registry in this world, unlike DNS, you now browsersjust hook up, you know, browsers just R DNS servers browsers can get access toevery registerat. They don't e o really make any decisions, whereas hear what'shappening is is browsers and wallets are deciding which registries arelegitimate, and so that's a role that they are now playing in this world andthey're only going to integratthe ones that are perceived as legitimatebecause they have business risks and now that we're in twenty plus walletsopera browser and more coming it just won't make sense for applications tosipple ort a colliding system, which is you know, sort of not to anyone's benefit behovs. It'sassuming that the principles are in check and a IA line appropriately. Itbehooves infrastructure, N, tooling, to intagrate with things that are usedright, 'cause, like ultimately were doing things t so that we're lowerin a berry eventualy, makingit more useful and providing the ineser much easiertime to do things than previously so like, like, I said, assuming t he, thefundamentals are in place. There's no reason why someone would want to tryand do that outside of trying to sabotage t system, because they thinkit's doing something it shouldn't do and so ta. I guess that's your maidrisk. There is people perceiving unstopability is bad like they want guy and so like when youhethere's, always kind of n open narrative of whether or not Um, permissionlessness or like a lack ofcontrol was good, and I think that this is really justbecause we haven't gone to the next step. Yet in terms of thinking abouthow permissionles systems actually play out in the market, and the whole thingthat we're focused on is the idea that, at the protocol level, you can't havecensorshit has to be permissionless and the reason why is because otherwise,the entire system, I can get corrupted it's the same reason why bitcoin needsto work this way and a theory is to work this way, because if you have yourgatekeeper that gatekeeper over time is going to linit what people can do. Soyou have to have the protocol layer...

...like this, but that does not mean thatevery application has to allow every crazy andarchic website applicatewhatever to h. You know, just you know to t to essentially, like you know,collapse the social order. It doesn't mean tha, terrible horrible, illegal.All kinds of things are going to be flooded all over our haps, because APPsare reading the block chain. Right APS can say we don't want to read thisrecord. This record isn'tethical Um, but the difference is: is that so longas you do that t the second layer instead of the first layer, it meansthat there's not one answer. There's not a way like there is with thecurrent Din s where you can just silenc someone completely. If I believe thatwhat I'm saying should be out there and other browsers agree with me and browssagree with me, even if it's only th two percent three percent five percent,then that information's going to get outthere or people are going to read the block chain themselves directly fromtheir devices or whatever like putting it at t at the first layerinsures that information that needs to get out can get out, but it doesn'tprevent us from still filtering out most of the bad stuff that we actuallyobject to and don't want to to propagate itself. So this world isactually going to leave having this permissions. This permissionlessness isactually going to lead us to a place where we're going to have a betterinternet, a better regulated Internet than what we have right now, where afacebookin you to essentially in their own Wald Gardens or whatever justdecide. What's, okay and what's not Indon tell us how or why or whatthey're doing um applications could share that there could be like awarning list of Domans associated with bad behavior andthat could sit on the block chann its Kinda in what like a cricto like Tecrippo, scam DB,does with a lot of the a lot of the wall extensions they share. Basically,if you, if you type in a certain address or domain, it says hey, thishas been flagged for you know: Melitia's content a like, I think,you're right. I say this. I I followe the same idiology or NATO tat you just mentioned, and that is like the right to oppt out Um. If you built a contrint system, themore constrains you put into the foundational layer of a system, um t t the lest you can build on top of it,and so, if you build something that works, that doesn't have constraintstot the very bottom, then you can build whatever you want. On top of IT WISTthe option to ot out. If that thing ever turns into something you don'tlike Oras. If you do the opposite, itdoesn't work that way exactly- and this is the super power ofputting this information o botcching is that it is. It is a gigantic public database inthes sky that anybody can access and, as a result, I you have this protectionlike it's it's extremely accessible, but at the same time you as anapplication can just ignore a record. So it's so easy for you as anapplication to say, like I want this information, I'm going to go, get itand I'm going to show it or I don't want to show this information,so I'm Goinna hide it or throw a warning or whatever I'm going to dotakecor yeah. What's your status rocking itthat's right same here, we rockditon so anyways most peopleknow status as a as a Mobil at Er private, secure communication. Did youknow that co? Oh I', do it I'd te SS l, I'm pretty sure he had ainting ing soyeah, just a little just a little bit of an inkling zo Um. So what it does is- and this is likenews to a lot of you listening right now- it combines a discentralizedmessenger right. What's that mean the messaging is disentralized acryptowallet and a web three browser.

That's a lot of things in one APOR, howyou guys pulle em, that all it's Kindo hard, but in fact it's it'sa lot more than that right! It's it's! The status is like really just anetwork of projects builds infrastructure, user level, productsand tools for Dat developers, all on got theweb fir stack, Ik, thecentralization woman or example as Olybus and hat's two client right.That's, like you, know: Infrastructure Leer. It's specifically designed for ResourceRestrictede, advices like mopilphones fact, Peter P. that's I e R MoyourModular Messaging Protocol for private communication. It's like how thesecomputers talk to each other. You got embark barks, like it's a framework of tools or a Suete oftools that allows people to build robusts, O docentralize applications. L another part, Kev Keycart ticardslike a really relate financially cheap, but incrediblysecure, hardwer right for contact, contactless open source, a Cardwallnig in an API so that you cankeep your keys safely whileout having to spend mhmoneydud. I love the keycordbecause I like it it just kind of plays on the fact that I, like things thathave small physical changes, that they get people act differentlyand that's one of the things cripto desperately needed. So Haot te status.We're recognizing that SOSO. Not only do you get all those amazing thingswith amazing names. Did you all know? Nimbus was the cloud that go who risesaround Onh, I don't less. They knew that when they named it that they, theystuck o a lot of like cloud base things, because the languagethey use is called them. What it is Goku rats round on a cloud,because you know you can't fly fastning the speed, sound or anything. So so not only do stanc have all thatstuff. It has more. All these projects are connected through a set ofprinciples and a mission degree sovereign, open, SOCIA economiesthrough public goods, all right sovereignty and transparents. Now any person or project can join thestats network and their mission through contribution or funting. They justrolled out of the centralized kick starter like tool for project londingcalled a symbol, a Sumblay take all of it out and get involved atstatus network dot, comyep. So go the status network tcom and check out allof the amazing things be a part of it back to the showwell. Let's talk about, we definitely agree on that. We cantalk to the cals, go home about kind of guess, whax pohetic about about it allday. Long talk about some of the difficulties youface. What's what's hard about doing this, and what's a barrier m, the FCCof coming in the future of kind of continuing the expansion of Onstocpbul,dovains and services like them? I think the biggest challenge is theintegrations. I think the regisry technology is a relatively small part.I mean it was: it was hard it definitely. We definitely spend alot of time on it, but that's not the hardest part. The hardest part has beenthe integrations, an the tools, so the integrations is to some extented bd problem. You Opresenting a Kate Partners, Um figuring out how to get them excited to embrace new technology, andI think, on the intigration side. That means wallets. That means browsers thatmean search engines. It's a lot of stuff that needs to support it or forus to get to a functioning internet...

...similar to what we have in thetraditional world and then the other thing I would say the other categorybesides integrations, is just all the tools. So in this traditional world youknow web building tools and application development tools. Those are all prettygood. You know, we've been doing this stuff for twenty five years now,whatever it is, th re there's, you know all this greatstuff around word press there's all this H, w deplay tools that exist,there's so much ther of now is not availability of tooling. It's choosingwhichever fucking Toen you want to use for a given job, because there's somany options, the many options and- and it's not allstitched together in this way. That makes sense it doesn't it's not it'snot a developer user journey like like it would be in t e with the traditionalInternet, where you Sa have this problem and thi and then and thensomeone wil be able to point you to a place where you can go and find. Youknow tools to address that problem right now it it doesn't work that waythings. Don't things aren't stitched together. Yet we don't. We don't, have the go addylike experience. where I buy a domain, I can easily launch a website or youknow, whatever the you know, kind of whatever the developer equivalent is ofthat we don't have those experiences yet and that just requires a wholebunch of new stuff being built a whole bunch of stuff being applied to thisworld that already exists and stitching all together. So I would put the twocategories of things that are. The biggest challenges is: Are Integration Partners convincing theapplications and tools making it easy, because I think from the demand side,like people are pretty excited about this IIDEA of a desentralized web. Ithink that we're able to get a lot of, I would say most of the crypto world,but even a lot of people outside who you know have either face censorshipand youtalmost people around the world. They have faced some sort of Internetlevel, censorship, the main level you know webposting level whatever, and soit's very easy to get people excited about trying this stuff Um. The problemis, is like once M I've had this conversation a hundred times, you knowwith somebody who is, you know not really donated and they say El. How canI do it and then we start explaining how to do it. Thaen they're, likeallright Woll C, come back to me a couple of years, yeah yeah a and honestly just soeverybody. You know you'R ou you'r listener is like I I think I c a saythis very candidly. I don't think that this stuff is quite ready for theoutside world. Yet I think it really is still in the crypto community phaseinthe cript community is is diving in you know, head first they're startingto build stuff we're starting to see a lot of gaps. You know lawn stuff on thedeentialized web, but until we see that mature, until we really see the criptocommunity in it and using it, that's when we should expect it it's going tothen go out into the next concentric circle of you know, dissidents orwhoever else that you know that really absolutely need this stuff, but it'sgoing to start with thegrypto people. I think I agree with that. That's that'sa reasonable outlook. I mean, if we're not using it ourselves and happy withthits usecase and like make it really easy for us, then it's it's much muchharder for the people outside of our domane expertise to latch onto it. Theway we do ies. Speaking of that L E, becauseintigrations are so important to you, you need people to use it. You need thetooling to be more fluid. You need that user ase to be available in whateverkind of applications that are out there, because the mamings donating system isis so iintegral to kind of the user experience in in all assetsright. What has what have you done? What haveyou created to help facilitate applications? Integrating Um Antatbl omains into their application? ELLIT's been a combo of things Um. Soone thing is just developer ducts. You know documentation for how to do it.That's on our you know, that's on our website and we're getting the word out.We created a grant program where we're...

...actually offering h helping tosubsidize the development work for key applications to support this. We have a team of folks that are goingout there and talking to applications Um, but the last thing h to think this,probably the most important is h user to that. So we have users who have beenbuying domains over the past year and there's been a little over two hundredand twenty thousand domain registrations so far, and they want places to use their websitesthey're launching websites. They want to be able to see them places they're.Sending money using their domains, they won't well to do it so like they havebeen asking for it, and I think it's really the user demand. That's been thething that's been driving at the most and so we've you know wev focused onthat. So I mean I would say that a all of those pillars are important, but actual users saying hey, I wantthis is really the thing. That's the most powerful yeah. I can definitelysee that Um. How easy is it to integrate? Walk methrough the process of integrating asevl domains than to say a wallet orWebthree Brother? Yes, I mean, if you're a wallet h allyou're doing is you are parsing this information, if I say so, I have if I see a domain name and I identify that my user is in theBicoinenfield. I need to make a request to the block chain and say: Is there aBTC address associated with this Domainn name? So I'm making a call tothe blockchain and say h? Is there? Is there a BTC address associated withthis domain name, so I'm making a a block Chin a call, totherum bok changeas that, so it's it's pretty simple. Um Applications have written their owncode. To do this. We a have a library which is you know even simpler. You canjust you can just plug that in Um fe, a few different ways, Um Jonoscac and and the COEPTI browsers. Basicallythe same thing Um. If someone inputs a domain, it takes that it parses theDomanu as all right. Where do I go to find out what this results to and soadding in Um, whatever the appropriate lookups arefor the dot crepto and then making that request? Thas all a tuded for a wetonbrowser and imagine, sat sat about it. That's about it and it's it! I! It isreally quite simple. I mean if you were to go and look up on the block chain.All you really see is Brad. Do CRIPTO BTC Equles, this Lt c equals this. I PA S Hash equals this. I mean it's, it's actually. Quite it's quite simple, an any any web.Three browser currently can buy and manage their domains. Using your standard portal rack as longas you're long as Youre Wepor Webor Anon Browser, you can still buy tradecell manage at it to h your current ements, exactly tat seems like it', a relatively easyask: Why do you feel people are reluctant to do so? 'cause, they don'tknow any better, because there's Nott, there's no user to man specificallywithn their application. What I haven't seen a lot of friction aroundit, so you kN W wh n, when we were usually when when folks you K ow arebecome aware of this they're pretty excited about it, and so we don't see alot of a lot of friction. I mean I think that there's y there's alwayslike you know, we rode mapped this, this amount of features, and so itmight, you know we might need to do it after this TN thing happens, but wedon't really come across any fundamental reasons. Why not I meanpretty much everyy. Will you talk to knows that this idea of copyand pasting,these long addresses is just a really...

...awkward user experience and they facethis problem because they're on berting new users, so the wallet is very oftenthe first place that somebody goes when they start playing around withcrypticto and they immediately are hit with this problem. And so, if you wereto go, ask a wallet, you know, Whateve r support request. Look like veryfrequently it's like what are these? What are these crazy numbers in letterslike? What does this address me very basic stupf like that and like in thefuture? I don't think people are going to see that stuff. I think people aregoing to get a domain name. It's gonna, auto, assign you know it'sGonto, auto assign addresses to them and they're not even going to have thatconcept. I don't think that there was a phase where the consumer Internet really tookoff, and I told you hey check out my cool website a you know, two, three D,four, seven, two D: Five, eight five. You know there was no point in timewhere, where people were using IP addresses to share viral websites, it's Kinda, like you, can't really takethis next step until you have naming. So I have a bit of pushback there Um personally, but it's it's it's more ofa discussion than than a hard argument, and that is like Um, the social nuances and ways in which we conduct ourselves withregards to the Internet in the Social Mor as we have around itare specifically because of that, because we've never told the user to care and always hadthem offloaed the responsibility of something else. CRIPTO is definitely Uma potential to turn that put's head and to say, like Li, you have the power andoptionality to be responsible for your own Um value and the keys and a securityassociate with keeping it yourself and the Morewe obfuscate that Tho more.We we stay along those social morrays of offloind responsibility and security for convenience, and so you don't getany real changes if the user doesn't have to think any differently or shreatthe system separately, and so, if, in my opinion,if we are to kind of, I guess do what we're trying to do in alot of the cases of the applications, a people who are in the space like you,have to have some type of change in the interaction and intuitionof how to operate with tecentralized applications and the and the associatedassets that you're dealing with, and so Li e. that's nd, that's a spectr!That's not that, like you said earlier, that's not it's not a diconomy, it'snot one of the other yeah! I thin. I think I think I totallyagree with that. I would just say that the domain name is also that so thedomain name has this same characteristic that the cryptic currency itself has, whichis that it's self custody that it's a self sovereign asset and so you'refixtating the user on a self sovereign asset, with a name that's easier toremember and pronounce and Referr to as opposed to the public address, andso you're obfiscating, one self self sovereignasset for another, or what you're really doing is you're kind of rollingthe self sovereign assets together in some ways- and I think that's reallymore- just sort of a UI thing, but it doesn't actually change the fundamentalresponsibility of the user, which is, I control my stuff n, o an a ousame light. How do you SA, for instance, I'd make abunch of registrations on my name and the things that are important to me and I lose the Associated Private keyso those registrations? I no longer have access to them. There gone I computer crashed and I didn't backhim up appropriately Um.

You can't do anything about that. Had Ye then educated, the user toappropriately back these things up, 'cause, that's going to be aneventual. Part of of a system like this is justbasically stuff. That's lost that could never be found again, but it could bereally good domains that people want to use, especially if the system getsreally popular. It's Likeono th t t that Domane is debd. It no longer hascontrol, because the guy lost his Pravit keys. When it first started there will be zombi domains, it isinevitable. I think the the Nice thing is that there's virtually limitless number ofdomains, if you think about it from combinations perspective. So, yes, youmight lose some really great premium domains out there that can no longer beused, but it's not as if a system could suffer from so many losses that itwouldn't have NSHEL domains in terms of the education. I I think we're in thesame boat as you know, otentially every crypto asset, and so there's going tobe. You know there's going to be multisig schemes for importantimportant domain name assets, there's going to be Um, backup tools, there'seven going to be institutional level, custodians for temporary storage andthings like that. It was going to be basically everything that you would seewith a crticcurrency here. It's just that Um people will remember, you know ifBicoin docripto gets lost and it becomes the Zombi Azombi domain. Peoplewill remember that much more than one random BTC, where the same thinghappened to it. So it's going to be like more noticeable here. I think, but it doesn't, but the dynamics arestill the same and there's a flipside to that, which is an idea that we'veactually thought was kind of interesting, which is that it'sactually possible to put up a website that no one can take down. Not even you by throwing away your keys. So there'sa there's, a flipside to this, where you can actually create a website thatliterally, is impossible to take down by anyone, assuming that where it's hosted can also not betake down. So like it's, it's pinned somewhere an idea fast, assuming itstose Tan, an ypofestts like the resolution can't be taken owt, so you have like rest ansuming that theback in hosting of IPFs stays true and its pin somewhere that can also neverbe taken down to, but like that is anactually exusrio. There's ways to make that more rebustovertime too. So I pee. If thats is amazing, they have have tons and tonsof o of awesome developers, building building tools for it, but we're notopposed to other decentralize S. tores networks either and a lot of our usershave actually asked us. You know: can we can we laungh to multiple storesnetworks? Can we also remove the risk of the store's network itself, so I'mon a thousand different nodes inside of IPFs Han I'm on a thousand differentnodes on two other networks too m? So we can continue to make this more andmore robust on the on the hosting side overtime runningout of time. So I'm kind of trying to figure out kind of the questions I wantto ask cause: that's going down a rape hole, something I wouldn't mindpursuing, but I noticed when I was looking up is TDEMANS. Before thisinterview I and I'd search for a couple of domains associate with my name thatthey're under a reserved or like Um, specific type of list. That basicallysays like you know, no one can take. You need proof in order to have this Um. Where did that thist come from and whyis it there yeah? So the idea is that one of theproblems that we saw with a block Changermain, registering we'veintroduced this new problem where a domain cannot be taken away and as aresult, it means that you need to be much more concerned about people whomight just buy and squad on someone's brand, and this is a huge problem inthe traitional domain name, Worl Haat's...

...called Sunriseis H. that's meant toaddress it where you basic quically, give brand owners right a first refusalon domain names, so we imitated that process. We used the trademark clear,ringhouseis database, along with a handful of other lists from Ciptospacific things and others, and we blocked off all of these domains asunable to be claimed by anyone other than the branddoners and we're justgiven away for free to all o Brandon and the including large companies we'vehad multiple Fortunte hne thousand companies claimed their domazes well sofar, and the idea was, I says that we didn't want the name spase. We didn'twant them to miss it. If everything becomes available on day, one they're,not they won't have heard of it yet 'cause. This is a small new thing andthen, if all those brands can't get their domains, they can't adopt it andeven worse, people will use the registry primarily for fishing attemptsother types of scams. So we did this defensively. It's a sunrise period that endsDecember thirty. First, twenty twenty at which point domains will be freely available, but the idea is to get those in thehands of brandowners as much as possible and that's the reason Wyregivting away for free. We really just want to make sure that companies havethe option in two years, three years, five years to adopt this technology andif they can't get their brands en the brand names, and they can't do that. So how does one go about proving that they are the brandowner bystander methods proving through pringthrough social media? Corporate email addresses various o of things like thatproof of trade, Maror okaygreat then theres the audioce out there that wouldlike to get hold of one, and it says that it's reserved there you go go, gothrough it go, get one. It's free, there's, no reason not to at this point,in my opinion, I'll be doing it. That's about all I have for today. Arethere any questions that you would ave liked me to ask that I didn't no. This is actually. This was amazing.This was super. U, this was super deep down in the in the way everything workson. This was really fun. I feel like we comvored all the we covered all the keythings. The only thing that I might just sort of you know rap with is is that they're in thetraditional domain name world. I we see content being taken down from hostingservices all over the world very frequently h. We see it in Turkey, wesee it in Russia, we see it in allaplaces all over the world, becausehosting services I can be subject very easily to the rules and laws of theirland. It means that you, as the publisher, really don't have t right tosay whateever you want, and we think that is a critical critical flaw in thecurrent Internet and not the way it should work that anyone should be ableto publish and transact online H, withou censorship. Now what apt to dowith all of that, and whether or not I believe that what you're publishing isethical, whether or not I want to see it is my choice or my applicationschoice, but at the base layer that shouldn't happen, because we don'thave a secure, safe and for Internet. If we don't have that so all right, that's a nice wrap up forthose that like to learn more on sopfl domains, dotcom and Um. For the back in infrastructure stuff,you can tes, have unstabable domains on github to check out all the codes.That's available, anything else that people should retut to yeah, but also, I would also check usout in telegram there's a conversation going. There there's also a deaf chat,and you can also check out DOCR en onsoll Domans DOT COM and check out howH do integration and all that stuff awesome. ACAMA shop, Tas, a Bunch.

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