Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 81 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #81- Unstoppable Domains Brad Kam

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Unstoppable Domain is a crypto blockchain domain company and browser maker that connects users to .crypto domain names on the Ethereum blockchain. These human-readable domain names allow users to be able to connect any cryptocurrency address to receive payments or to establish a censorship-resistant website.

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Now into its work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Welcome back to another interview of hashing it out, as always, on your host start, Cory Petty, and today we're talking about unstoppable domains and we brought on Bradley Cam Co founder of the platform, to help us, help walk us through an answer questions that I may have about what unstoppable domains is and what it seeks to do and how it differentiates itself. So, Bradley, welcome the show. Why don't you start off by doing the normal thing, telling us kind of how you got into the space and and reefinure us to what unstoppable, unstoppable domains is? We're sure. Thanks, thanks for having me. So I got into the CRYPTO space I moved to San Francisco in two thousand and twelve in order to work on a marketing software company, nothing to do with crypto. But I moved into a Bitcoin Hacker House called twenty mission in San Francisco and it was like thirty people. They were shooting horror movies when I first moved in there, because the building was like falling apart and like basically not it didn't actually look like real residence were there. There was a call to the police at one point saying there were a bunch of squatters there and we're like no, we're actually playing rent. It was kind of crazy. But the second the second bitcoin exchange in the US was launched in our basement. Pretty much everybody there was working on a on a crypto project of some kind. Couple years later of it all, I gave a talk in our courtyard before theory and even launched. So I was fortunate. I moved to San Francisco and I basically just fell down the rabbit hole. Maybe maybe two or three weeks after I got there, thought Krypto was the coolest thing I've ever seen and started playing with it, buying it, playing around with ideas and just kind of couldn't stop thinking about it ever since then. How, how the world did you fall into that house? I had a I was very fortunate. I had a good friend who had who had just moved there. He had been living this relatively relatively nice life in the Richmond. He broke up with his girlfriend and moved into this place. I think it's like the eight or ninth person there, and he was the only person I knew in San Francisco. So he said come here, so I did. Yeah, funny how that works out. Sometimes. Think at the right spot of the right time. Actually, I think a lot of people that I've interviewed that have been around for a very long time it's kind of got a similar start. It's like I just happened to be in the right spot, the right time or on the right people and was interested by the tech and here I am. It's it's pretty wild because it does need to you know. I mean it sounds so improbable, crypto does, and so it does. You know, to some extent it does sort of require or it's helpful if you know, if somebody somebody advocates, and so that happened to me and then I read the White Paper and kind of went down that that normal path and here we are. Let's let's talk about on stopple domains, like why? Why? A naming system or what is what? First off, what is unstoppable domains like? How does it work? Was it too? Yeah, so inside couple domains is a domain registry. We're similar to like ACOM, except for our domain registries are on blockchains. They are not part of the traditional DNS system. Domains are part of smart contracts and they're stored inside of your wallet...

...with your private key. So, for example, we have DOC crypto registry and domains our ear seven twenty one tokens. So you store them inside of your ethereum wallet and currently you are set up to be work with both the ZILICA network and etherium. So if a dot sale and DOC crypto top level domain that people can register domains under, does that meat? Is it so UNDILA? Are you still using the Herc twenty one standard and and and it's like whatever smart contracting in momentations on Zelica. So we have a separate registry, Dod zill on the Zillica blockchain and the way, the best way to think about it is that the blockchain is your or asset registry. And then so you're issuing domain names on the blockchain and then you're attaching records just like you would like a DNS record to your domain name, but you're writing that record to the blockchain and then people are using the blockchain as the source to go and look up the record associated with your domain name. So if you have a traditional domain name, you type it in, you hit you go through a theories of paths and then eventually you get the the DNS. The DNS servers will give you the appropriate record. Here you just go read the etherium blockchain or the Zilica blockchain and you find the record. So it's replacing the DNS servers with the blockchain as like your public database. Yeah, I have a ton of top of things are can go into here. Hopefully we can get all of them. Psyche we I guess we're luckily enough. I think we've had tyesshoon from name base, which is the handshake like a basically the interface to the handshake, one of the interfaces to the handshake protocol to register hs domains, which are which is a way to do decentralized top level domains. This isn't necessarily the same here, but it's sort of the same vein of of a naming system and the routing associated with how computers do look ups with human, human readable text, to something that's not necessarily human readable or not easily human human readable, and then applying us that to those things. Is is a very interesting and hard problem, especially when you try to add sence or supersistence, like why, why build a new one when we have something like Ns for Atheroium? Yeah, it's a good question. So we the first the first demo product that we ever built was a registrar for Daddy's. So we were inspired by Duddyth. We love the project and the thought was that we wanted to try different things with a registry, stress registry strategy. So we had a couple of a couple of innovations that we thought were missing from the marketplace. One of those was that domain names don't need subscriptions. So if you buy a domain name, you own it forever. There's no subscription. And the reason why we wanted to eliminate subscriptions is because there have been issues where the registry can raise prices or even potentially raise prices to such a point that you would lose the domain name. So we thought that the concept of subscriptions was introducing a potential potential censorship risk whereas if you own your domain name forever, it doesn't actually matter what happens to unstopple domains anymore. So once you have one of our domain names, you don't need to care about the health or wealth of unstoppable domains again. You all you need to care about is the etherium blockchain, essentially. So that's one thing. We also introduce this concept of multi currency payments. This hadn't existed previously,...

...where the way it works is is that I have my crypto domain and I can attest my Bitcoin, my theorium, my light Cooin, all my crypto addresses to this one domain and then you can pay me inside of wallets. So right now this works inside of trust wall, at my ether wall, at my crypto many others where you could pay me in dozens of different currencies, all to Brad Doc cryptome, and this is something that didn't exist until we built it. So we have a lot of respect for duddy than we include them in our tools, but we had some some new ideas that we wanted to introduce into the market and we think that the market is better for that now that there's now that there's kind of two versions, but you don't really need to choose tools tend to support both of us. Why not? We're pretty early in this space and really it's really much more about trying to provide an alternative to DNS. Absolutely, I kind of. I was just curious about kind of the differentiating features we fuent on stoppable doveins like, like you said, the kind of pay anything with. How does that work? Is that like an integration with the citualized exchanges, or are you routing to various keys? How does someone send how what's the mechanism and which someone sends payment to, say, court Patty Dot Crypto, and it goes and and it's automatically routed based on the assets that's sent. So it's actually really it's really simple. What's happening is you are as signing a message with the private key that controls the domain name, in your writing, the address of the blockchain. So if you were to look up Brad Doc crypto on the blockchain, you would see BETC equals address, LTC equals address, etc. And so a wallet, when I type in Brad do Crypto, a wallet reads the Blockchain, Finds The associated address and drops it into the sin field. So if I'm in trust wallet and I type in Brad Doc crypto into the BTC field, it knows to go and grab my betc address. Same thing if I go into like when field. So it's really just a look up, a look up on the blockchain, and the etherium blockchain is acting as your your public database. Look ups are free. So okay, very so the client is still responsible for crafting the appropriate transaction depending on the asset. Yeah, but all they're doing is is they're making a request to the Chin itself. That's a great register to find information and based on an individual and the addresses they'd like to be paid at for various for whatever whatever they want. What what else is available outside of like what kind of records can you add to a specific domain? So the idea is is that, is that the two primary use cases right now are payments and websites. So you can attach, you know, any cryptocurrency address. That's for the payments use case, but you can also attach your IPFs Hash for your website. And so one of the other things that I think is you know, I think one of the other things that we focused on a lot as a company that I think we felt with somewhat missing from the market previously are tools to make this stuff easy, so unstoppable. DOMAINSCOM is like a new version of a registrar where you can, inside of our Ui, go and add addresses, sign a message with your private key and write crypto addresses to the blockchains. So you can set up your domain in this way. You can also attach your IPFs Hash. There's also tools to, with a couple of clicks and a little editor, launch your own IPFs website very easily. We have an extension where you can view doc crypto websites and dozeo websites inside of Google chrome. So it's this sort of broader tool set of things to make all of this stuff easy. Let's kind of get back down to the websites, to the web to. What do you actually write to your domain name? It's crypto addresses and Hashes for detention de centralized storage. Okay, great, that's kind of like I'm tooling. Is definitely something I want to get into here...

...because, like one, congratulations on the recent announcement of the partnership with opera, them them facilitating resolving doc crypto addresses within within the search bar. That's that's fantastic, because one of the main barriers of entry is popular tooling that people use that they don't understand, really understand. It's just what's available to them allowing them to get access to this space, that having to download a bunch of extensions, like like native integration, of these things that make it to that make went three discoverable, and it's things like that that definitely help people access this content without having to add a bunch of steps. Right do like that feels like doing the same thing with a bunch of steps, and so I guess. I guess with something like an Opera Integration or native integration, they just type in your name, Dot Crypto or, I'm assuming you do subdomains too. Is that correct? Yeah, subdomains are subdomains are supported and and the real idea. So operas eighty million. It's only on android so far, but it's still eighty million monthly active users. So this is yeah, so this is the you know, this is kind of the biggest step forward, I would say, for the decentralized web so far. This is the biggest opening up for you native essentialized web experience, and so you can go in right now. You can type in my ether Wallad Dot Crypto and you can interact with the full my ether Wallad application on the decentialized web. You can type it into the upper browser. You can also go to Khyber Doc Crypto and you can interact with the Chiro protocol and do decentralized exchange. These are the types of things that, you know, make the decentialized website powerful. Like these are these are apts that are attempting to be censorship resistant, but they previously had this this DNS or this this Amazon web services problem. They don't have to have those problems anymore. Yeah, that it's of an issue with more many conversations that have had with people who are building alternative naming systems outside of Dns, is that how do you get people to queery the right name servers, to get reserve, to get to get whatever they're using to resolve correctly, right because, like say, for instance, you use your standard is isp given name service, it's a regular DNS name server and you want to queery this stuff, your browser is going to be like, I don't know, that is it's nothing. So you don't get anything back and so you have to have that additional tooling and infrastructure available, readily available, so that any anybody who's interested could just type in the address and it resolves appropriately. Until that happens, it's relegated to the enthusiasts like me and you to run our own name servers to, you know, download extensions and do it for our friends and families or do also for our friends and family, and it's that's been a very large barrier. Eventry, since it's the birth of all of this technollogy, is the infrastructure and tooling associated with getting people to use it quickly easily. I agree. I agree. I think it's a huge problem. I think the thing that has been really positive, though, that we've seen from the market is that browsers are already looking at this stuff. You know, we've seen a lot of browsers in a great etherium, for example. We've seen a lot of them looking at IPFs. So we've seen them trying to trying to get these networks plugged into their software, even for other reasons, you know. So like opera, for example. They started with a wallet. That was their first focus and then, okay, we'll be already reading the theorium blockchain. Wow, it's actually not going to be that much harder to also resolve, resolve websites. Yeah, but for anyone who's spent any reasonal amount of time trying to query the blockchain and pull information from it, it kind of sucks. It's not fun. Ja Jason RPC is not amenable to caching. We have services like, if you're a cloudflare running proxies that run a bunch of kind of middleware...

...to help make that look up faster. But it's kind of going back in the direction of centralization. Are you see any improvements with this infrastructure and tooling in the space coming up that that moves away from this kind of I don't want to call of centralization risk, but definitely it's there's their centralization in terms of how people access information, not necessarily where the inform range of store. Sure I think this is and I would say that just in general. You know, philosophically, like you know, we think that people should be people should be looking up stuff directly on the blockchain, that it's not it's not ideal to have those types of those types of things in the middle but at the same time I also think that the world is likely going to have a lot of different versions simultaneously, you know. So just like you know, we've got bitcoin. It censorship resistant. You know, a lot of us, you know, store bitcoin with our own private key, but some of us, for reasons of convenience or other things like that, might use a custodian for some portion or whatever for some period of time. That doesn't negate all the value of Bitcoin, and I think the same as kind of true for a lot of these these gateways like it may be that what you're going to want to have is you're going to want to have some IPFs, you're going to want to have some level of distribution cross Ip ifs nodes to make sure that your content is fully distributed. But not everybody with an IPFs node in their browser actually looking up the content directly themselves. They might use a gateway for feeding convenience, but they know that even if that gateway we're to go down, they still have a maybe a clunkier but still censorship resistant backup. So I think there's just a lot of different versions of the world that can coexist. But we are very excited about this idea of of, for example, people having IPFs nodes inside of their browsers and we actually launched our own browser as kind of a demo for the market that has an IPFs note inside of it. If you were to go to, you know, Brad Doc crypto and you like my website, you can, with one click, turn on the node and store and share that website to the network. So basically, the more popular my website is, the more people are fans of it, the more decentialized it becomes. And you IDFs. Not so you've made a browser. Continue, give me some details on the the text stack of this browser, because it's running a note inside of it, which means that, like, if I go on to website Brad Dock Crypto, which is not which is as sensibly, the IPFs Hash, and I retrieve that thing, I can then pin it myself to the increase its availability across the IPFS network, and that's that's a that's a massive thing that needs to be done, because reliability of information across a on incentivized network, because foll coin is not launched yet, is very difficult. You can't unless you pin it yourself. And then what's what's what's the reason? Right? So you need more accessible content to give you better data viability, which is something like what you just said. Browsers that have nodes in front of them and based on people liking them, sharing with the burden of hosting those things or increase in there availability across the network. He talked about what that browser is and how's built. Yeah, so it's a it's your chromium fork and we just, we just it's a no, it's open source. Anybody is. Anybody is free to for get play with the build off of it. We're not attempting to be a browser company. This was meant to be kind of a developer tool and an example to the browser market. So we we built an IPFs node inside, inside there, and then really the only other feature that we introduced was this idea of the voluntary the voluntary pinning, and we were trying to show that there there are other dynamics besides pure monetary incentivization to incentivize content...

...to get on a lot of different nodes. And we're already seeing content creators that we're talking they were talking with, wanting to offer this where, for example, they might say like, you know, here's my video and have like here's my like decentralized. You know, Youtube, because you two has been having all these issues recently where they've been taken down. Crypto creators, where they can put their content up on the centralized web and they can charge for it. But maybe if you, if you're willing to be a node and serve that up, then you get a discount or you get it free or whatever. So there's all kinds of interesting ways to create incentives that don't necessarily require, you know, pay this node, you know, ten cents or whatever. Yeah, that's that's personally speaking, I work for a company that is actively looking into building out your services and making get the backbone of our network, right having having a web throe, a desktop web through browser and wallet and so on and so forth, as part of the mainstay of what we're trying to do, and so I would like, I I'll probably be looking at to see how it's done and ask me your questions outside of this. But like, how do you I feel like having a registry that has so much linked to it as a few potential Gotcha's in terms of how that information is used and who controls it at what points? Like you, that the unstoppable domains definitely gives an in situation that people can't take it down there's a large amount of sister ship persistence. Are there weak points and this like, what's the process of purchasing a domain? At what point is it mine and no one else can take it and no one else can manipulate it, take it back for me or or or change the records that I have associated with it. So you've got two steps. You've got purchase and then you've got claim. And so in the span of two minutes you can buy the domain and then claim it to your wallet. Ones. That transaction is going through on the etherium blockchain and you have the domain in your wallet. That's it. Nothing unstoppable domains can do. That's a near see what you're tooken in my wallet. That is no longer a part of the platform, E. S. seven twenty one token. Yeah, sorry, what did I say? Twenty ish? Yeah, definitely not that. Definitely not that. Yes, your seven, seven twenty one. These are none when able tokens, and so your your typically users are storing them inside of Meta mask, but some users use like the DAB browsers, which have good Ui for for nft's, you know. So like Quinn baseball at trust will at there's several several others. That are great, but that's what we encourage. So basically, once you bought the domain, you put it inside of a self custody while it hopefully one that you already use and are comfortable with, and that's it. It's yours. All right, great, and then you have to you can basically use the contracts that are on board to then look up the registrations and resolve whatever's associated with it. Yeah, and and those don't depend on us either. Those are those are on the blockchains. The registries already on the blockchain. Anyone can just go and read the blockchain, find the records. If you, the user, wrote those ret you know associated those specific records with your domain name, that's your choice. Anybody can read it. That's their choice. I'm curious about the associated risk with that registry, and in two ways. One is something I already alluded to, which I could back tore in a second. Other one is the control and security profile of that registrate. Like, let's take, for instance, the parody book, a parody multisick book, where, like the all the all the multisicks were worked great, but the library that they depended on got newt and which basically locked away all that either, as there's such a situation where, say, the controller of the registrate can new get change owner ship, change the change it. Can it be self destructive so that the registry goes away,...

...which thus like locks away all the value associated with it? It's impossible, and we did. We built it in such a way that that is impossible, because we didn't. We the whole point here was to deliver a product that was a censorship resistant domain name, and so we build it in such a way that it really does not matter what we decide to do with the registry. The one thing we can do at the registry is we can turn it off in the sense that it can't mint new domains. That is a power that we have in case there was some issues, but it's still doesn't change what happened to existing domains. There are several hundred thousand domains out there. There is nothing we can do, even if we were to turn off future minting, which is something we would only do in extreme cases if we thought there was a bug or whatever else, but even that doesn't affect users that already have domain names. And so that was that was by design, because that gone through any type of security audit to help to help give some more confidence and reassurance around those like security guarantees. I'm a security engineer, so I think about these things, not stop. Sorry, totally. They're great quatons and we we had multiple security audits. We have one professional one that was that we published and we're happy to happy, to happy to share that sort of stuff. That correct. So we have myself, yeah, partly because I'm interested. I just like looking at these things. Another one is because, like, I work for products that would like to implement stuff like this, and so we need to before implementing anything into our product, I need to make sure that, like, the users of what we do can safely integrate this feature into what and allow them to start using it and not really have any worries about whether or not that feature will ever not work as intended. You know what I mean. And so, like, I asked these questions not for not only for myself, but for anyone who's thinking about trying to integrate something like onsoppable the mains that like once it's there's and then their wallet it's there's in the their wallet. I think it's super important. It's a super important question because I think one of the things that you would ask yourself as a developer is is, you know, how future proof is the system? You know, can I you know, can I rely on it in five years, ten years time whatever? So I think those are those are great questions. I think those are I understand why you wouldn't want to move forward without those things and we've we've found this as we've been working with wallets, that, you know, we do wind up going through a pretty serious security review, especially with the larger ones, where they're looking closely at the tech before they're willing to implement because, for for the same for the reasons you mentioned. I mean people are sending money with these things, people are, you know, building web presences like it's important stuff and they're relying on that look up to work as intended, especially if they're hosting critical infrastructure or popular sites. They don't want to make sure these things can't be rerouted to something else or take it over, changed and so on, so forth, and so that having that type of guarantee which form my opinion, building naming systems like this is, if done properly, inherently more secure than traditional ones because, like signing certificates, you know, you get rid of CEA's, you get rid of all these like kind of ad hoc infrastructure that we've built that makes the Internet work today as it works, like with something that's natively using cryptography in a way that's particularly useful for proving ownership and maintaining assets. I mean, sea's are gone, custodians are gone, and the Custodian thing is quite a big deal. Like, you know, you can have you know, your DNS. You you can have your DNS Registrar get hacked. You could have them make an accidental update that causes an issue. They could, you know, react to a court order and show you down. There's so many different and different ways that that system can fail...

...currently. So how do you can these all to like, say, with something like main base, right, I sorry, like handshake, which is decentralized top level domain registrar. So I can I can get like dot petty or Dot Cory or got whatever dot hashing it out and then build subdomains and hierarchical subdomains on that. How how do you get them to not make a doc crypto and then start fighting you for that top level domain and the infrastructure that resolves it. I mean, I think in general naming systems have had this problem around collisions and I broadly speaking, the way that we should view it as a community is there's no reason to collide. There's only one five hundred traditional domain extensions out there. There's about for blockchain domain registries and it's not in anyone's interest to have collisions. And even worse, it would actually potentially harm millions of users who currently can send money using using doc crypto or Dod Zell Domains and they could potentially send it to the wrong address. So it would be a massive harm to millions of crypto users if that were to happen. So I think that, you know, we're relying on the judgment, of course, of you know, of people who you know not do something that could be, you know, pretty socially destructive. But at the same time it's more about integrations. So your registry in this world, unlike DNS, you know, browsers just hook up. You know, browsers just read DNS servers. Browsers can get access to every registry. They don't need to really make any decisions, whereas hear, what's happening is is browsers and wallets or deciding which registries are legitimate. And so that's a role that they they are now playing in this world and they're only going to integrate with the ones that are perceived as legitimate because they have business risks. And now that we're in twenty plus wallets, opera browser and more coming, it just won't make sense for applications to support ORT colliding system which is, you know, sort of not anyone's benefit. Be Who's assuming that the principles are in check and I align appropriately. It behooves infrastructure and tooling to integrate with things that are used right because, like, ultimately we're doing things so that we're lowering to Barry, eventually making it more useful and providing the end user much easier time to do things than previously. So, like, like I said, assuming the fundamentals are in place, there's no reason why someone would want to try and do that outside of trying to sabotage the system because they think it's doing something that shouldn't do. And so that, I guess, that's your main risk. There is people perceiving unstoppability is bad, like they want come and so, like when you there's there's always kind of an open narrative of whether or not permissionlessness or like a lack of control, was good. And I think that this is really just because is we haven't gone to the next step yet in terms of thinking about how permissionless systems actually play out in the market. And the whole thing that we're focused on is the idea that at the protocol level you can't have censorship. It has to be permissionless, and the reason why is because otherwise the entire system can get corrupted. Is the same reason why bitcoin needs to work this way and a theory needs to work this way, because if you have your gatekeeper, that gatekeeper over time is going to limit what people can do. So you have to have the protocol...

...layer like this. But that does not mean that every application has to allow every crazy anarchic website, applicated whatever, to you know, just you know, to to essentially like, you know, collapse the social order. It doesn't mean that terrible, horrible, illegal, all kinds of things are going to be flooded all over our APPS. Because APPS are reading the blockchain right. APPS can say we don't want to read this record, this record is unethical. But the difference is is that, so long as you do that at the second layer instead of the first layer, it means that there's not one answer. There's not a way like there is with the current Dns, where you can just silence someone completely. If I believe that what I'm saying should be out there and other browsers agree with me, and browsers agree with me, even if it's only through two percent, three percent five percent, then that information is going to get out there or people are going to read the blockchain themselves directly from their devices or whatever like, putting it at the at the first layer and shares that information that needs to get out can get out, but it doesn't prevent us from still filtering out most of the bad stuff that we actually object to and don't want to to propagate itself. So this world is actually going to leave having this permissionless. This permissionlessness is actually going to lead us to a place where we're going to have a better internet, a better regulated Internet, then what we have right now, where facebook and Youtube essentially, in their own walled gardens or whatever, just decide what's okay and what's not. UN Don't tell us how or why or what they're doing. Applications could share that. There could be like a warning list of domains associated with bad behavior and that could sit on the blockchain. It's kind of like like a Crypto effector CRYPTOSCAM DP does with a lot of the like a lot of the wall extensions. They share. Basically, if if you type in a certain address or do main it says, Hey, this has been flag for, you know, most just content, and it's like, you're right, I think you're right. I say this I follow the same ideology or narrative that you just mentioned, and that is the like the right to opt out. If you built a constraint system, of the more constrains you put into the foundational layer of a system, the less you can build on top of it. And so if you build something that works, that doesn't have constraints at the very bottom and you can build whatever you want on top of it, with the option to opt out if that thing ever turns into something you don't like or as if you do the opposite. It doesn't work that way exactly, and this is the superpower of putting this information on the blockchain is that it is it is a gigantic public database in the sky that anybody can access and as a result, you have this protection, like it's extremely accessible, but at the same time you, as an application can just ignore a record. So it's so easy for you as an application to say, like, I want this information, I'm going to go get it, I'm going to show it, or I don't want to show this information, so I'm going to hide it or throw a warning or whatever I'm going to do. Hey, Corey, yeah, what's your status? Rocking it? That's right, same here. We rock this shit. So, anyways, most people knows that is as a as a mobile APP for private, secure communication. Did you know that, core Oh, I do it. I'm the CSL. I'm pretty sure he had an inkling, oh, inkl like. So, yeah, just a little, a little bit of an inkling. So so what it does is, and this is like news to a lot of you listening right now, it combines that the centralize the messenger, right, what's that mean? The messaging is decentralized, a Crypto Wallt and a web three browser. That's a lot of things in one APP,...

...cory, I how you guys pulled that all? It's kind of hard, but in fact it's a lot more than that. Right. It's the status is like really just a network of projects that builds infrastructure, like user level products and tools for dabt developers, all on kind of the web free stack, like the decentralization movement. For example. We so bimbus and that's to client right. That's like, you know, infrastructure layer. It's specifically designed for resourcer stricted devices like mobile phones. Yeah, I got fact P top. That's your mother, your Modular Messaging Protocol for private communication. So like how these computers talk to each other, and you got em bark barks, like it's a framework of tools or a suite of tools that allows people to build growbus decentralized applications. Fact, another part get the key card. Key cards like a really, really financially cheap but incredibly secure hardware wall right for contact, contactless, open source, a hard Wallt N in an API so that you can keep your key safely while not having to spend a bunch of money. Dude, I love the key chrd because of like it just kind of plays on the fact that I like things that have small physical changes, that they give people to act differently, and that's one of the things crypto desperately needed. So hats off the status were recognizing that. So she. So not only do you get all those amazing things with amazing names. Did y'all know Nimbus was the cloud that go cou rides around on? I don't don't if they knew that when they named it. That they are stuck with a lot of like cloud based things because the language that uses called them. MMM, what is Goku writes around on a cloud because you know, he can't fly faster from the speed of sound or anything. So so not only do stance have all that stuff, it has more. All these projects are connected through a set of principles in a mission to creed sovereign, open socioeconomies through public goods. All right, sovereignty and transparency. Now any person or project can join the status network and their mission through contribution or funding. They just rolled out of the centralized kickstarter like tool for project funding called a symbol assembly. Check all of it out and get involved at Status Networkcom. Yep. So go to status Networkcom and check out all of the amazing things, be a part of it and back to the show. Well, let's talk about we definitely agree on that. We can talk to the cow'SCO home about kind of we can guess, Wax Poetic about about it all day long. Let's talk about some of the difficulties you face. What's what's hard about doing this and what's a barrier that you use you see upcoming in the future of kind of continuing the expansion of unstoppable domains and services like them? I think the biggest challenge is the integrations. I think the registry technology is a relatively small part. I mean it was it was hard, it definitely, definitely spend a lot of time on it, but that's not the hardest part. The hardest part has been integrations and the tools. So the integrations is to some extended bd problem, you know, presenting a kate partners, figuring out how to get them excited to embrace new technology. And I think on the integration side that means wallets, that means browsers, that means search engines, it's a lot of stuff that needs to support it for us to get to a functioning internet similar to what we have in the traditional world. And then...

...the other thing, I would say, the other category besides integrations, is just all the tools. So in this traditional world, you know web building tools and application development tools. Those are all pretty good. You know, we've been doing this stuff for twenty five years now. Whatever it is. There's, you know, all this great stuff around word pressed. There's all this deploy tools that exist. There's so much stop now it's not availability of tooling, it's choosing whichever fucking tooling you want to use for a given job, because there's so many options, so many options, and it's not all stitched together in this way that makes sense. It doesn't. It's not. It's not a developer user journey like like it would be in the with the traditional Internet, where you say, I have this problem, and then this and then and then someone'll be able to point you to a place where you can go and find, you know, tools to address that problem. Right now, it doesn't work that way. Things don't, things aren't stitch together yet. We don't. We don't have the go daddy like experience where I buy a domain, I can easily launch a website or you know, whatever the you know kind of whatever the developer equivalent is of that. We don't have those experiences yet, and that just requires a whole bunch of new stuff being built, a whole bunch of stuff being applied to this world that already exists and stitching it all together. So I would put the two categories of things that are the biggest challenges is our integration partners, convincing the applications and tools, making it easy, because I think from the demand side, like people are pretty excited about this idea of a decentralized web. I think that we're able to get a lot of, I would say most of the cryptical world, but even a lot of people outside who you know, have either face censorship, and you talk most people around the world, they have faced some sort of internet level censorship, domain level, you know, web posting level whatever, and so it's very easy to get people excited about trying this stuff. The problem is is like once, and I've had this conversation a hundred times, you know, with somebody who is, you know, not really cry donative, and then they say okay, well, how can I do it? And then we start explaining how to do it, then they're like all, well, okay, come back to me a couple years. Yeah, yeah, and and honestly, just so everybody you know, your your your listeners, like, I think I can say this very candidly, I don't think that this stuff is quite ready for the outside world yet. I think it really is still in the cryptocommunity phase. I think the cryptocommunity is is diving in head first. They're starting to build stuff. We're starting to see a lot of DAPS, you know, launch stuff on the escentralized web. But until we see that mature, until we really see the cryptocommunity in it and using it, that's when we should expect it. It's going to then go out into the next concentric circle of, you know, dissidence or whomever else that you know, really absolutely need this stuff, but it's going to start with the crypto people. I think I agree with that. That's that's a reasonable outlook. I mean, if we're not using it ourselves so happy with this use case and and like make it really easy for us, then it's much, much harder for the people outside of our domain expertise to latch onto it the way we do it like a speaking of that, I a because integrations are so important to you. You need people to use it, you need the tooling to be more fluid, you need that uservas to be available and whatever kind of applications that are out there because the namings donating system is so integral to kind of the user experience and all assets. Right. What has what have you done? What have you created to help facilitate applications integrating unstoppable domains into their application? Well, it's been a combo of things. So one thing is just developer docs, documentation for how to do it. That's on our that's on our website and we're getting the word out. We created a grant program where we're actually offering helping to subsidize the...

...development work for key applications. To support this, we have a team of folks that are going out there and talking to applications. But the last thing, and I think the thing that's probably the most important, is user demand. So we have users who have been buying domains over the past year and there's been a little over two hundred, Twenty Tho domain registrations so far, and they want places to use their websites. They're launching websites, they want to be able to see them places, they're sending money using their domains. They want well, it's to do it so like they have been asking for it and I think it's really the user demand. That's been the thing that's been driving at the most and so we've, you know, we focused on that. So I've been I would say that all of those pillars are important, but actual user saying hey, I want this is really the thing that's the most powerful. Yeah, I can definitely see that. How easy is it integrate, walking through the process of integrating selfle domains and to say a wallet or Web Free Browser? Yeah, so, I mean, if you're a wallet, all you're doing is you are parsing this information. If I say so, I have if I see a domain name and I identify that my user is in the Bitcoins Endfield, I need to make a request to the blockchain and say, is there a BETC address associated with this domain name? So I'm making a call to the blockchain and say is there? Is there a BETC address associated with this domain name? So I'm making a blockchain, a call to the theory in blockchain. Do ask that. So it's pretty simple. Applications have written their own code to do this. We also have a library which is, you know, even simpler. You can just you can just plug that in. What that's a few different ways job descript and the web. Your browsers basically the same thing. It's someone in puts a domain, it takes that, it parses the domain, it says, all right, where do I go to find out what this resolves to, and so adding in whatever the appropriate lookups are for the crypto and then making that request as all the Theud for Webt your browser. I'd imagine that said about it. It's about it and it's it is. It is really quite simple. I mean, if you were to go and look up on the blockchain, all you really see is Brad Doc crypto. BTC equals this, LTC equals this, IPFs hatch equals this. I mean it's it's actually quite it's quite simple and any any web three browser currently can buy and manage their domains using your standard portal. Correct, as long as you're long as your webtor in Web your enabled browser, you can still buy, trade, cell, manage at it, devote your current domains. Exactly. All right, exactly, makes sense that. That seems like it's a relatively easy ask. Why do you feel people are reluctant to do so? Because they don't know any better, because there's not there. There's no user demand. Specifically within their application. What I haven't seen a lot of friction around it. So you know, when we were usually when when folks, you know, are become aware of this, they're pretty excited about it, and so we don't see a lot of a lot of friction. I mean I think that there's you know, there's always like, you know, we robe mapped this this amount of features, and so it might, you know, we might need to do it after this thing happens. But we don't really come across any fundamental reasons why not. I mean pretty much every while you talk to knows that this idea of copy and pasting these long addresses is just a really awkward user experience and they face this problem because their own boarding new users. So...

...the wallet is very often the first place that somebody goes when they start playing around with Cryptico and they immediately are are are hit with this problem. And so if you were to go ask a wallet, you know, what are your support request look like. Very frequently it's like what are these? What are these crazy numbers and letters like, what does this address mean? Very basic stuff like that. And like in the future I don't think people are going to see that stuff. I think people are going to get a domain name, it's going to auto assign, you know, it's going to auto asign addresses to them and they're not even going to have that concept. I don't think that there was a phase where the consumer Internet really took off and I told you, hey, check out my cool website at, you know, two, three, four, seven, two eighty five. You know, there was no point in time where where people were using IP addresses to share viral websites. It's kind of like you can't really take this next step until you have naming. So I have a bit of pushback there personally, but it's it's more of a discussion than a hard argument, and that is like the social nuances and ways in which we conduct ourselves with regards to the Internet and the social morals we have around it are specifically because of that, because we've never told the user to care and always had them offload the responsibility to something else. CRYPTO is definitely a potential to turn that on its head and to say like, like, you have the power and optionality to be responsible for your own value and the keys is so in the and the security associated with keeping it yourself, and the more we obuskate that the more we we stay along those social more rays of offloading responsibility and security for convenience. And so you don't get any real changes if the user doesn't have to think any differently or treat the system separately. And so if, and my opinion, if we are to kind of, I guess, do what we're trying to do in a lot of the cases of the applications and people who are in the space, like you, have to have some type of change in the interaction and intuition of how to operate with the centralized applications and the and the associated assets that you're dealing with, and so like, that's that's a spectrum. That's not that. Like, like you said earlier, that's not a it's not a dichotomy. It's not one of the other. You know, I think, I think, I think I totally agree with that. I would just say that the domain name is also that. So the domain name has this same characteristic that the cryptocurrency itself has, which is that it's self custody, that it's a self sovereign asset. And so you're fixating the user on a self sovereign asset with a name that's easier to remember and pronounce and refer to, as opposed to the public address. And so your obfiscating one self self sovereign asset for another. Or what you're really doing is you're kind of rolling the self sovereign assets together in some ways. Yeah, and I think that's really more just sort of a UI thing, but it doesn't actually change the fundamental responsibility the user, which is I control my stuff and that and I don't say white. How do you say, for instance, I'd make a bunch of registrations on my name and the things that are important to me and I lose the Associated Private keys those registrations and then said I no longer have access to them. Are Gone there by computer crash and I didn't back them up appropriately. You can't do anything about that. How do...

...you then educate the user to appropriately back these things up, because that's going to be an eventual part of a system like this. Is just basically stuff that's lost that could never be found again. Like it could it be really good domains that people want to use, especially if the system gets really popular. It's like, I don't know that that that domain is dead. It no longer has control because the guy losses private keys when it first started. There will be Zombie domains. It is inevitable. I think the Nice thing is that there's virtually limitless number of domains if you think about it from a combinations perspective. So yes, you might lose some really great premium domains out there that can no longer be used, but it's not as if a system could suffer from so many losses that it wouldn't have functional domains. In terms of the education, I I think we're in the same boat, as you know, essentially every crypto asset, and so there's going to be, you know, there's going to be multi SIG schemes for important, important domain name assets. There's going to be backup tools, there's even going to be institutional level custodians for temporary storage and things like that. There's going to be basically everything that you would see with a cryptocurrency here. It's just that people will remember, you know, if Bitcoin DOC crypto gets lost and it becomes the Zombie, a Zombie domain, people will remember that much more than one random btc where the same thing happened to it. So it's going to be like more noticeable here, I think, but it doesn't. But the dynamics are still the same and there's a flip side of that, which is an idea that we've actually thought was kind of interesting, which is that it's actually possible to put up a website that no one can take down, not even you by throwing away your keys. So there's a there's a flip side to this where you can actually create a website that literally is impossible to take down by anyone, assuming that where it's hosted can also not be taken down. So, like it's pinned somewhere an IPFs, assuming it's hosting an IPFS's like the resolution can't be taken down. So you have like rest assuming that the back end hosting of IPFs stays true and it's pinned somewhere that can also never be taken down to but like that isn't actually there's ways to make that more robust overtime too. So IPFs is amazing. They have tons and tons of awesome developers building building tools for it. But we're not opposed to other decentralized stores networks either, and a lot of our users have actually asked us, you know, can we can we launch two multiple stores networks. Can we also remove the risk of the stores network itself? So I'm on a thousand different nodes inside of IPFS and I'm on a thousand different nodes on two other networks too. So we can continue to make this more and more robust on the on the hosting side over time. Okay, running out of time. So I've kind of trying to figure out kind of the questions I want to ask, because that's going down that rapper hole something I wouldn't mind pursuing. But I noticed when I was looking up unstoppable domains before this interview and I searched for a couple of domains associated with my name, that they're under a reserved or like specific type of list that basically says, like, you know, no one can take to see what we do. You need proof in order to have this. Where did that list come from and why is it there? Yeah, so the idea is that one of the problems that we saw with a blockchain domain registry, we've introduced this new problem where domain cannot be taken away and as a result, it means that you need to be much more concerned about people who might just buy and squat on someone's brand, and this is a huge problem in the traditional domain name world. They have what's...

...called a sunrise that's meant to address it, where you basically give brand owners right a first refusal on domain names. So we imitated that process. We used the trademark clearing house is database, along with a handful of other lists from cryptospecific things and others, and we blocked off all of these domains as unable to be claimed by anyone other than the brand owners, and we're just given away for free to all the brand owners and the including large companies. We've had multiple fortune one thousand companies claim their domains as well so far, and the idea was is that we didn't want the namespace. We didn't want them to miss it. If everything becomes available on day one. They're not. They won't heard of it yet because this is a small new thing. And then if all those brands can't get their domains, they can't adopt it and even worse, people will use the register primarily for fishing attempts other types of scams. So we did this defensively. It's a sunrise period that ends December. Thirty one two thousand and twenty, at which point domains will be freely available, but the idea is to get those in the hands of brand owners as much as possible, and that's the reason why we're going away for free. We really just want to make sure that companies have the option in two years, three years, five years to adopt this technology and if they can't get their brands, then they the brand names and they can't do that. So how does one go about proving that they are the brand owner? By standard methods, proving through, proving through social media, corporate email addresses, various other things like that. Proof of trademark. Okay, Great. And for the audience out there that would like to get a hold of one and it says that it's reserved, there you go, go, go through it, go get one. It's free. There's no reason not to at this point, my opinion, I'll be doing it at that's about all I have for today. Are there any questions that you would have liked me to ask that I didn't know this was actually this was amazing. This was super this was super deep down in the in the way everything works, and this was really fun. I feel like we covered all the we covered all the key things. The only thing that I might just sort of, you know, wrap with is is that they're in the traditional domain name world old we see content being taken down from hosting services all over the world very frequently. We see it in Turkey, we see it in Russia, we see it in all places all over the world because hosting services, I. can be subject very easily to the rules and laws of their land. It means that you, as the publisher, really don't have the right to say whatever you want, and we think that is a critical, critical flaw in the current Internet and not the way it should work, that anyone should be able to publish and transact online without censorship. Now what apps do with all of that and whether or not I believe that what you're publishing is ethical, whether or not I want to see it is my choice or my applications choice. But at the base layer that shouldn't happen because we don't have a secure, safe and for Internet if we don't have that. So all right, that's a nice wrap up. For those that like to learn more on stoppable DOMAINSCOM and for the back end infrastructure stuff, you can be there's a you have unstoppable domains on Github to check out all the codes that's available. Anything else that people should reach out to? Yeah, but also I would also check us out in telegram. There's a conversation going there. There's also a Dev chat and you can also check out doc sent ensopple domainscom and check out how to do integration and all that stuff. Awesome. Thanks to come on a show. Thanks a bunch.

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