Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 82 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #82- The Transition with Dean & John

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This Episode is Collin Cusce, Swan Song, as he leaves Hashing It Out to focuses on his work at AVA Labs. With Collin leaving, he passes the torch to the two new hosts Dean Eigenmann of Status and John Mardlin [Maurelian] of Consensys. Thank You, Collin, for your diligent work and excellent insight as the better half of Hashing It Out, we will miss you.

Now into its work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology and the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. All right, open back to hashing it out. As always, I'm your host, Dark Gray Petty, with by Trustee Co host. One last time, Colin Cuche say what's up? Everybody calling? What's up? Everybody calling, and that is going to miss. That was that focus to get into it. That's the last time you'll be here in Colin. Say That officially you may come back as a guest host some point, but Colin is leaving the show. We're going to talk about that today and introduce to you two more hosts that will be joining me and this journey of hashing things out. That is Dean Eigenman and John Mardling. Let's start the show by having you to introduce yourselves. Who you are, where you come from. We'll just take it from there. Doing you go first. Hey, guys, I'm dean. I work at status with Corey. I'm a protocol researcher there, based out of Zerk, Switzerland. Yeah, that's that's a shitty introductions. Will get more into that way. That is the worst introduction, but I hate interducing myself. ANSWER, John. Have I said they have any? Do you have any kids? Tea, no, no, kids. No kids, garity. He's like eighteen this twenty one this time. Okay, all right, John. Yeah, my name's John Marlin. My online handle for crypto dealings is marillion, and they you are La N. I'm a smart contract security auditor lead. I can sensus diligence, where I've been since two thousand and seventeen. For that I worked at pen base. Background is in math and mechanical engineering. So anything I learned I picked up myself along the way, and I like to just put that out there so that I can feel free to ask stupid questions. Makes my life easier. Right on. So how do you want to start this deep called? Let's talk about you. Why? What do you do? You do you? What are you doing with your life? Where you go on? What was the purpose for leaving? Slowly mirander Marian, meandering around you know, walking in circles, talking to myself. Fuck this quarantine. No, I don't know. I'm doing Alma. Take it up a lot of my time. As you know, the episodes haven't been as consistent lately, even with the appearing on it. Hate to say, but Cela did predict this the yeah, but I was I was thinking of my focus for now and I really feel like I'm doing a show this service by not kind of like passing the torchible torch, a little passing it, and so that's what I'm doing. Is Basically I'm kind of going to focus on Alva Alba labs, get this, get this pretty this protocol out the door, get a platform launched and reassess my life from there, because there's a long road after that too, and I don't want to let the show suffer because I'm planning on doing ridiculous hours for the next, you know, couple years. So I think that's reasonable and I I personally appreciate the fact that you're willing to admit that and try and leave amicably so that we can continue doing the show and you can continue focusing on what you want to focus. They like the idea court. You're a piece of shit. I don't mean totally know like it. How can I ruin this sport? Let's see, how can I actually burn a bridge with you? You're so nice, scry, everything is wonderful. Yeah, it's hard. It's hard to not you know. Yeah, it equally is like the only way, like you just got to be straight up and honest about it. So well, I think. I hope people miss me, but so I after Colin decided that...

...he wanted to move on, which I fully support, I tried to think about who. I need to find someone to replace him, because doing a show by yourself isn't really as fun, and so replacing someone who has, I guess, the chops to speak technically on a very broad range of subjects, be able to be critical without being an asshole. So the question being able to kind of steer, steer conversations in a way that isn't obvious to the listener or the person that you're or or the person you're talking to. Like that, I guess the qualities I'm looking for and a show like this are hard to find, and so I thought about who I know that would benefit from doing something this, would enjoy. It has the capability of doing it, and I reached out to Dean, where work with and some capacity at status, because in my opinion, you fit all of those bills at the same time. Like immediately after I talked with Dean about this and he said he'd like to try doing it, John contact me and said with with the hell of a pitch on expressing his interests for joining the show too. So I basically just said, all right, let's let's bring it in. I'll have everyone do it. I think spreading the load across multiple people is easier because, as column put it, like all right, cello called this because it's difficult to carry on doing a podcast for a long period of time if he becomes a burden. And so the goal here is to have very qualified people continue the show in such a way that it doesn't make any significant burden on any individual. So yeah, so say, Dean was my first choice. Like I don't know you, John, otherwise I might have chose you. You know that really yours, like my first choice when said you know's yes, run the same page, Korey and I. Yes, and deep you definitely were with the person I was thinking of, Corsia, head up. So so I'm asking a loaded question here, John Only. Only. I kind of make me feel better about myself. Why did you why did you reach out to me? Why did you want to put your name in the hat for becoming a cohost of the show? What did you want? Yeah, well, well, sir, I think so. You put out the call in a telegram channel like Hey, I'm looking for people, and I mean I sort of assumed you would be inundated with with people jumping on the opportunity. I wait a few days because I just generally try not to make snap decisions about how to spend my time and like overcommit two things. But I thought about it. I just kept thing. I was like, this is such an opportunity because and you and I've been talking about it like a couple weeks before, or even I'd asked you about the podcast and it just seems like such a perfect way to learn. Like I already listened to hashing, you know, and I learn a lot from the people you talked to on it, and I can sort of tell that the reason you do it are, I think, is like so that you have an excuse to invite really smart people to talk to you about what they're doing and learn from them, and I think it's there's one thing to like listen to a podcast while you're washing dishes or or running, but it's a completely different thing to have to engage in the conversation deeply enough that you know, you have a model of what's in the other person's head and you have to like have some idea about what they know going into it. So I just think it'll it's like a really great hack for learning a lot of different topics much more effectively. I think nailed why I do it, at least partially, like that's it's a great way to force yourself to stay up to date with the things you're interested in by talking with people directly and being able to ask them questions about you deemed like, why did you say yes, I asked you. So for me it was also the learning, because what I found is that I feel like on podcasts we get people who are currently more relevant and whose work is currently more relevant, and my research mainly has kind of turned to far older research where I'm missing out a lot of the new stuff coming out, and so I feel like being on a podcast gives me the ability to stay informned with like what's latest in this in this space, such to...

...be mindful of that. Like we don't have to limit ourselves to what's new in any way, shape or form. Right. This is this show is not about new projects and blockchain repose. If the show is about trying to understand, rock explain, like show interesting work being done in I would call like the decentralization space, right, or cryptography, like difficult problems that are being worked on or have been worked on for long period of time, that many don't know about or understand completely, and just trying to get the people on who've been influential in those things talk about them, understand them and expose them to a broader audience. And so like. That could mean anything that you personally feel interested, like, like peer to peer system, scriptography, the distributed distributed systems. Let's see here, like you, you name it and to like heck, then, while incredible work, while you're talking about cryptoeconomics, dean the he's your favorite person. I know that someone actually just gave me a radical markets book and I don't know what best to do with it, because I'm sure as hell I'm not going to read it. Do you hate makes a great doors and while so, honestly, I s to like that. That's the whole goal, right, is like you're interested in things. There's things that become you know that wax and Wayne. In terms of popularity. We want to try and talk about them from a very technical level to get an idea of like why they become popular, why they're influential, and to figure out, like where they may fit into a put a larger ecosystem, like like why is this useful in any given context and why would someone use it or take advantage of it? Or what is it change that previous solutions didn't change? So, like it's up to us to craft whatever that is, and it's based on our interests. That's really about it. And and who do you think the audience is? WHO's IT for? Dog, you're on the show right now. You listen to the show. Your the audience. Man, you get to make this whatever you want. If there's somebody out there that you really want to talk to, you go hey, Bro, I got podcast, and nine times out of ten they're like, I want a microphone in my face and they'll say yes, actually, harder people are like that. Physicians. Yeah, like the hardest people find to get the book. But, like Andrew Polster, was hard for us to book, like really hard for us to book, and I actually, you know, I got lucky with that one because we tried for a while and or we want Ed you culture pronounce yeah, fuction Um Matth Gay. So he's a he's really brilliant. Everyone seen him talk. It's the ore see to talk of his it's been really insightful and I'm really wanted them on. But, you know, he's skeptical podcasts, like, Oh, they just gonna ask me to show bit coin or stuff like that. I guess I'm a I don't know, but I went through Russell, I think, and got a got you know, he helped us, connected us to get him on and see anybody you want. If you can just get them to hear what the shows about in the space. Typically if they're they're going to be interested in being on the program it's a quality program that. I was gonna say, like what's people understand the form out of the show, and it's not that I'm not kind of there's no real agenda, like we're not trying to get people to say things or do things or craft a specific narrative. And then get people to kind of follow along with it. They tend to open up and really just kind of talk about the things they're passionate about, and if you get the right people, you get like a really good explanations of technical topics that are interesting without really like trying that hard, and it's also information you can't get anywhere else, which is something that I've always really enjoyed. Right, if you can get people to open up and start to really talk about the things that they're passionate about, you first you learn a lot about why the person does what they do, what they think about it. It gives intuition about that thing you may not you might not be able to get anywhere else, and it's information you can't get from a website, and so I it's that's why I that's basically why I podcast, is that you get people to come on and talk about things that they care about. You get to ask them questions that you wouldn't necessarily get a chance to if you try and go through traditional means like a support ticket system or online wikis and things like that, and so like that's that's what I want the show to be and in the process of doing that you broadcast it out and give it to people for free and they thank you for it. That's...

...that's it. And so if that's something you're into, then that's what this is, and you have the opportunity to kind of help me figure out who to talk to, what to talk about and so on and so forth, not being a too big of a deal because the format of the show doesn't require a lot of post production. It's just record through a couple filters on it, throw it out there. So, with that in mind, like, what types of things do you want to talk about? Like, okay, say, for Dean, what what are your current interests right now? Right now I'm getting a lot into more traditional distributed systems reading. So probably a lot of the things that'll be interesting to me is speaking to, like some of the older professors who were working on like things which we are actually implementing now, like Barbara List call and Leslie Lamport, people like that. to about? I don't know. I firstly with like people who were working on so I listened to the podcast yesterday, Zero Knowledge Podcast, with the researcher from vm where I forgot his name right now and I think one of the interesting points raised in that podcast was the fact that people were coming up with all these Byzantine, fault tolerant consensus algorithms, but at the time when they were inventing them, there was actually no practical use case to any of them. So it would be interesting to see their opinions on, like what is actually happening in this base with people implementing these things, how they feel about their research being implemented and if they see themselves like working on this stuff ever again because of the fact that it's now become practical research? You think they don't. I was curious to that kind of about that, like do you think they, like, are super happy that a lot of their lot of their work that was done from an intellectual standpoint is now the subject of so many practical applications, but typically kind of done terribly? That that might be a good point, and I think a lot of a lot of them may have the feeling that they're that their work is getting used for purely scams, which I've I've hear a lot from academia where they think that a lot of things in blockchain just because it mentions blockchain is inherently a scam, and so will be interesting to know, like how many of these professors have actually looked into some of the stuff that's coming out of this space on like a deeper level. About you, John, well, one thing I'm excited about, like Dean being on this as well, is that I feel like the consensus that's like the consensus algorithms, the consensus layers, somewhere that I'd like to learn a lot more. Always feel kind of lost. So that'll be a bonus. But but where I guess I like naturally gravitate towards is security stuff and and like a bit higher level, so security processes, language, design and like the human factors that go into security, like just like what it takes to build a culture of security that doesn't, you know, end up blowing up your small startup or and losing everybody's money. And I've been like I'm starting to get actually excited about defy and Daws, and I was, I was somewhat skeptical of both those things for a little bit, but the more I look at and actually see those things happening and people doing really crazy things with permissionless innovation I would say I'm I feel drawn to him, very excited about it, while at the same time like like I feel like we're going to watch people continue just grew up in very exciting ways for a little while now, but it's fun to be along the ride part of that. So really, the first person that you sorry, it would be like the first kind of people that you would probably reach out to them. It's like Dean said, wants lifts off in the lip word. Those are ambitious kind of right. But like what would what would be the hope? You please be so awesome? The what kind of pigs where you like looking at right now, that you know whose research you're specifically reading and WHO's WHO's just...

...been coming up on your radar a lot, that you think you might be like interested in reaching out to each other and maybe they'll hear this episode proactively reach out themselves. Yeah, what is the first person that came to mind is Hellel Wayne. His name on twitter. He's Hell Elagram, and I think that like, like he's sort of an expert in informal methods and testing, but like programming language design. He just seemed and he's really interesting, like he's who like very engaged and always asking questions like it. You know, recent twitter thread was just what's your favorite language feature in whatever language it is? And so he manages to do that like both very, very deeply technical. He's always like he works a lot with KLA plus and and so formal specification from modeling, but it also brings in the like things about the human layer and and what humans actually need to build secure software, which I think is like really the ultimate challenge. So so, yeah, and thought about that until just now, but I'll reach out to him. Weird mixture of like all of us here. D You started working on some some Tla plus specifications of Ava. Yeah, I did you do that? And why? Because, like, for one like that's kind of this strange thing that we all have in common and some way, shape or form, right, like you, I beg read all the stuff. You're right. So that's that's the only thing I have here and I'm a part of the show. Like Column Works Atava and John Literally just talked about his interests, which include things like formal specification. Language is like Tila plus. Like what made you do that and why? Quy. So Tla plus has as actually the language which is used if you want to test distributor or concurrent algorithms. And the problem with it is is it's it's syntax is really it takes quite some getting used to and it's kind of impossible to learn unless, I feel like, you actually have something that is simple enough to spec out in the TLA in a tla specification and consensus algorithms in general are concurrent, distributed algorithms which are perfect for implementing in Tla. But pretty much every other consensus algorithm which would be simple enough to implement in TLA has already been implemented in Tla, whereas ava seemed like kind of this low hanging fruit which was not too hard of a consensus algorithm to implement and had not been implemented yet, and that's why I went with that. And I was mainly interested in learning more about the avalanche consensus protocol family in general anyways, because I was doing some reading on it. But what, I'm sorry, I was answering a text. Hey, what's up, podcasting? What was your question for me? Here's it's like, because great way will like so fairly consensus settled that a second ago. Sorry, Dr Parkin, had to be for a bid. Okay. So, yeah, it's liked the working expects. Yeah, it's been we want doesn't matters. Is a Meta episode. Yeah, do you doing, like the only specification of of Ovalie, like what's the benefit of specking out something like a constance as algorithm in a technical, specially technical, specifically specification language like Tla plus, like, what do you get out of that? Do? If you ask Leslie Lamport, the answer would probably be that if you don't have a formal specification, you don't have a real algorithm yet. But with things like Tla, what you can then do is you can check the model and assert that your safety and liveness assumptions actually hold, because what it will do is it will run your model with every possible state that it can generate and see that all the safety and liveness assumption still hold. So that's super useful. For example, I think it was Mongo DB. They had this entire replication algorithm and thought that it works up until they had then decided to model it in Tla and after like a couple of years, essentially found that there was a bug in their original implementation of their replication algorithm, which they would not have found without formally modeling it and it took them got...

...a few years. It took them. It took them a few years to essentially find the bug because they had only written the implementation of it in Tla after like two or three years of already running this replication algorithm and production. So a few years of TLA writing. Yeah, now, first of all, I'm not I'm not a Matthew Guy, like I'm not that kind of computer scientist. Not even sure I can call myself you scientists anymore because I met people who are real deep in their way different than I am. But Ya, it's technique, Kevin's technique. Did do the mathematical workout chain analysis on these snow protocols, which is essentially a Tla. You know it's. So my question is like, what about that analysis did you find insufficient and do you think that the Tla will actually bring to the table? I have not actually read that analysis, so I'm sure that the team has done analysis. As said, for me, the the main goal with doing the TLA specification in avalanche was just two. One learn more about avalanche the family, and learned to La Better. Cool, and we're calling it kind of the snow family lately, but people been mixing that up a lot just because we have avalanche and snowman. One's chain, one's DAG and they're both kind of a little different way they handle stuff. So we called the rle thanks, no, find Mollie, consensus, and then the individual implementations. We have Valanche in stone man. At least that's what we've been doing so far. It does seem quite as sticky. Is is the sorry. I think think it's interesting too, good to bring Colin and Kevin are goon back on the show now that Dean is a part of it with his interest in this stuff, to go through this this family of contebrians again. We've done it before, but I think it's interesting to do it again with a new lens of Dean and the things that he's interested in. I think that'd be great. Kevin be a great person to have one. Kevin and Steven, Steven Butt off, also really great. Guy Eats needs a microphone in the face. I'd love to do that too. I really like both Kevin and good. I talk to them every now and then. John, how did you how did you go from math guy, which is a broad, broad thing, to call yourself to the human lens of security. Like, yeah, I'm not sure that I am. It's really calling. I really enjoy math. I was really drawn to but I do. I do, I do, but I don't. Doesn't feel like it's totally natural to me, the human size security. I don't know, I guess I think I've always been somewhat for lack of bed room, like like less on the autistic spectrum than a lot of engineers. So so I do find people interesting and think that they are kind of their Corda to making things work. We can cut that if we have to do but say yeah, I mean I think. I think it takes that to want to talk to people a lot and I find that that that kind of yeah, you get you get the like the super nerdy analytical types and and and they're very powerful in a way, but it's still humans at the end of the day, and I think that, like making things actually work is sort of like the saying that you should write your code not for not for not to impress people, but like for the guy who's just trying to get through an eight hour day so he can get home and watch football or something like that. Like that's who should be able to read your code and understand it and maintain it in the future. Those are the things that I find interesting. Did you name an exama where the human isn't the thing at the end? Like, is there anything be as involve a human user? And I mean like that? We're we use this, we use coding in technology as kind of a amplifier for human desire or convenience or something else. And are there instances where that's not the case, like code for Code Sake or code for me? Every El Code is intended to run my machine at some point for a first specific U. Yeah, thing that ultimately serves some human. Sure. Like what was it voyager? Like there's...

...a space probe that we sent out that is running software that no human will ever interact with. Again, I guess we wrote it to feel good about what it's doing out there, but you can only just think about it and feel woman fuzzy about it, like it's playing like probably like a wagner syphiney or something like that. I don't know. Otherwise, I think you only do like the majority of the things that we do or for humans, and so taking them out of the looper at the considerations is usually a you never you're not going to have a good time. Okay, it was a softball rhetorical question, not challenging. Can you name some software that's not for people there's took the challenge to literally? Yeah, yeah, it's always. It's always you eating satisfy he needs. We forget that sometimes. I think that's part of what I like about this moving forward, especially with having kind of more people involved outside of just me, and one of the person is that it's it's spreads. It spreads a few things. One is the domain expertise or the interest. Like you said, you're more interested in things that Dean is not in. So there's an overlap here, but it's not that lure super interested in what Dean is interested in. I just don't have like I try to focus and like stay in my lane, for lack of arry term at times. But so like can sense telgrhythms or over there's this like very sexy area that I just wish I could be like no deeper or no more about. So I'm really excited to just like draft like just like just like learn from what like skills off of Dean's conversations. That's gonna be awesome. It's straight up, though. It's hilarious. Two people are subtly going consensus of protocols are this sexy area. It's like literally, historically they were like bottom of the Farl. There's like two hundred people of the world who know anything about them. Now it's like some of these growing feel of research, but like people are still playing catch up because for like twenty thirty years, like nobody gave a shit. And then, yeah, I think about that right, like the first I guess, when I guess, the main application of like distribute again sensus algorithms that brought a lot of attention to them was money, right, like you know, you found something that grew that had value associated with it and not pure academia and some obscure scientific area, like the underlying fundamentals of how that stuff works blows up because there's human greed attached to it. Dude, it's kind of like it's true, like money will bring anything, make anything up, like will get it. theorium, like it was cute until I see it and then suddenly it's like up there, ups the world, supercomputer is going to rechange everything. Dfi D D D Fin, like we're going to build like like shit. The like has computing power you can pay for on demand and it'll be safe, don't worry about it. Will Use Game Theory. We fans, but like yeah, man, like put money into something and people suddenly start getting imaginations, and I think that's what's going on here, is it? You know, the imagination has been sparked and I do think that there's a lot of interesting stuff in consensus and I'm excited to watch you grow from the podcast, Jane, because there's a lot more to this space than just security. And security is way different in this space than it is in other spaces, and a lot of that to the fact that we have consensus as later of everything that we're doing. It's incredible to watch this kind of like MPC, multiparty computation like systems like impact the way that we view security and financial systems because it's been so incredibly centralized the past. So you can't ignore it. You can't ignore like what the safety versus lightness tradeoffs me? You just can't, and I think it's going to be really interesting to watch you kind of like get deep into that, because you're going to need to know it and I think the audience needs to learn about it. So I'm glad that you're here to explore that and I can't wait to listen. Yeah, I'm happy to wrap the audience in my question asking. And there's definitely a multi disciplinary aspect of all these things, which is kind of this is something I found out during my PhD. Was My phd is in I like a bastardization of computer science, chemic chemistry and Physics, and it was incredibly multi disciplinary, and so I had...

...to learn a lot of things that I wasn't necessarily taught formally during my undergraduate and it became clear that anything that's novel, most of the things that are novel today, are going to be inherently multi disciplinary. And if you take that idea and bring it into the decentralization or blockchain them or like trustless industry, whatever the hell you want to call this thing, it's incredibly multi disciplinary, bringing in a bunch of different traditional specialties and trying to melt them together in ways that that's not necessarily have been done for we talked about considers, a rhythms, economics, cryptography. It's like social, like community behavior, like all these weird things that come together that that seemed disparate before this technology are now like an extra ble intertwined. And so like a show like this tries to look at each of the things and figure out how they work and what happens within them and then try and puzzle piece them together into like the broader picture of like how can you put them together to make something that's that's useful or like that that serves the demands and requirements of all the stuff that we're trying to build ultimately to like make humans lives better or more trust to trustworthy or get people to power back, or whatever your narrative do jure is. It's like you need to bring people in together with different areas of interest and expertise to ask those questions, because I might not be able to ask a poignant question to someone who distributed systems that Dean made, because these that's wes focus of attention is right now. Same for you, John, like I'm insecurity, but you're all your I'd say, deeper insecurity and with more experiences, something like that, right, and so like I like yeah, hi, so I have that kind of look forward to. Is Us being able to kind of broaden the topics as well as like increase the like the quality of questioning when you're talking about these things. But ultimately it should always be a conversation like this, just with different people in the room. Like I we always tell our guests, like when they before we start the show, like because I they're already expecting to kind of have a traditional podcast interview where they have to chill or answer point it like it's very specific questions, pushing a narrative or something like that. It's like no, you're at a bar with some technical people and they're asking you questions and you're having a conversation. It's it's laid back, it's conversational and the audience should feel like they're at the bar to the unfortunately, just don't have the opportunity to speak up. If fortunate part about our ur the way the show, the way beforemat is that the latter half of the episode is where the room meet potatoes is, you know, the first part is typically the shield. This is what we do, is why we do it, is where I'm from, this is who I am. I'm you know, I like long walks on the beach and puppies. You know, like seriously that they do those like the first half hour typically in most episodes, but you get to the second half hour and man, we're just like that's where things start getting deep, because we have the information we need, we have the set up done, and then that's where things become particularly interesting. So we're getting it. We're into the second half the episode. Now I'm kind of curious. What are you to build? What have you till to built in the past that got you to where you are now? What is your what is your so you say I've got a background insecurity or I'm focusing on consensus, but how did you land in this particular place in time? How did you become the person that you are today? Because it is a port for the audience to know what you bring to the table when you ask these questions, because it frames the background of the questions you're going to answer. Like for me, I'm gonna Lie Star's Web blot in late s that's where I came from. Built throughout, built through, build a career through that, because that's where the money was, you know. But for you guys like you're both very into very deep fields, and so like, let's start with you, John. What is what? What got you into the security role in Crypto specifically. Yeah, also, when I first, I guess I first got into theory um through like I went to devcoon and Shanghai, and when I was there, which was they two thousand and sixteen, and so that was a few months after the Dow Hack, and in Shanghai there was this like like referred to as to love with love from Shanghai attack, which was a pretty crazy attack at the leg on the I think, the gas layer, and basically what...

...it did was somebody figured out that if you self destructing an account, you got all your gas money back, I believe, but like you would stay there and continue to take up state space and just like screw everything up. So they started doing this massively and there was like a real time response get developers and carry developers hanging out you hotel lobbies fixing this. So that really underscored the the like the critical nature of security in the space. Mean I always thought was obvious even before when I was watching the Dow take off while I was working at coin base and I was in like a while I was there, I was in like a developer support kind of role, so I was helping developers work with Apis and that point is was developing and integrate the point of Bay software. So I just had a very deep understanding of the fact that bugs always exists in software. Like you get bugs and software because you deal with it all the time like and help people deal with them. So I remember thinking like there's just how is it that everybody's like so confident that this software just just works as advertised? You know, not to say that I like bet against it and had skin in the game in some way, but it felt self evident to me at the time that that couldn't go well. So, you know, I'd say that really drew me to it. And then I was also drawn at the time to the people I met at that conference from consensus. And it happened to be like the people I met there were like we're, you know, Joseph Chow, for one and and others, and the need was in security when I joined. And so when I first drawn consensus, I wouldn't say I was like a security I mean I had a lot to learn. A slight backtrack actually, like before I drank insensus, what I did to learn a lot about the space and silwy was help Nick Nick Johnson write specification for the first DNSK launch is our first who was our first person we ever interviewed, by the way. I mean I know Dean like his works with him very closely, way more closely than I have, and I wish I still have more time to work with Nick. Yeah, I feel like I am a real dad. I learn a lot from him. He's great. Am I going? Yeah, so I try. I joined consensus and and that's like this diligence team was sort of forming up at the time and I just I did everything I could to help make it happen and help right could. And you know, I felt like an imposter at first. Feel really confident in my ability to contribute to the security conversation smart contract. They are a player, human layer at this point. So, yeah, I hope that it is a question and wasn't too wordy and still getting the feeling for perfect. Definitely laid out how you got here, and that's really what I've got to want to those like what chocks did you bring to the table? When you ask questions, you come from this framework of understanding and it's important that you know people understand what your framework is. So yeah, I mean like decade as sorry, Dean handled their fun fact, acade is translates to Dean and Latin. Yeah, I know, I know, I looked it up. It's pretty interesting. The principal or Deane, I think. Right. Yeah, it's and it has a background to it as well, because I think it means like ten, something I can't even remember now, like leader of ten or something like. Yeah, yeah, the original units they had were like ten people, and so the person who ran those ten people was the was a deck on those and then that person wh actually it just kind of like grew from there into something. You know, words Morph and change to it. It's just funny because I can't not see the anus part because I'm a Chine fair and I get that quite a bit. Cool. I was a naive child wood. I chose that name of this be cool. So that where you come from. I pretty much started working professionally in software development at the age of fifteen, which is when I dropped out of high school. Started in Ios development and then quickly moved to e commerce, where I was working at one of Switzerland's largest e commerce websites, where we had like few distributed systems problems that...

...we were working on solving, which was mainly about like scaling the server well enough and things like consistency when it comes to a shopping cart and stuff like that. And while I was doing that I discovered etherium pretty much and I met this guy called Matthew d frente. I don't even remember how I had met him. I think it was because I remember now actually, I was working on a something kind of like ragon and posted it on. Read it and he was a security auditor and chat all over how insecure my code was, and then we got into conversation and we I quickly joined his team doing security audits, where I then like work for I worked on that for like a solid two years and in that period of time I was introduced Tim Nick Johnson, where I then started working on Ns with him and quickly became like one of the main developers on that team. And then, after two years of doing smart contract security and having to deal with clients, I kind of got fed up with it and decided that I wanted to do something that's no longer smart contracts or blockchains and I was looking for a new position and jared had been hit me up that he was looking for someone to do protocol research for a new messaging protocol at status, and I had gotten quite a few offers, but that was really the only one which let me dive into distributed systems problems beyond like the blockchain, and so that was the thing to me which I was like the natural fit, and so for a little over a year now I've been doing that at status, consistently reading and trying to get as much knowledge as I can in the field of distributed systems. That sounds of that well, it sounds like you picked well, Corey, very they too, who drifts up high school of fifteen to become a professional? Like, how did you see nothing? Yeah, I was playing Super Mario, success, play very think video games. Yeah, final fantasy seven just came out. I was all about that. Seriously, though, like, that's pretty impressive. I didn't even know you could. I guess you're in you're not. Americans. Hard, I think, for a fifteen year old to kind of just drop out become a professional here. I don't know if that's these days. I'll change you. It's easier now. If you have to stay, if you have two chops and you could, you could contribute quality work to somebody. I don't think they really maybe, I guess labor laws that have an issue. But it Switzerland. There's the benefit that it that we have the apprenticeship system. So at the age of sixteen, people either decide to do an apprenticeship in a specific career, which you can do in really anything in Switzerland, so you can get an apprenticeship and software development, you can do whatever, or they continue high school to continue with university later on. So what I had done is I dropped out. I did an internship in Ios development while I was searching for an apprenticeship in software development. So my time in e commerce was finishing my apprenticeship. Essentially, I feel like the apprenticeship system is one of the greatest losses of modelbally, North Americans and Wis Asian at least a trade Switzerland. It's amazing, it's great. It meant that I don't have to go to high school and do all this crap that I didn't care about and could focus on funny and something that I really did. You're now kind of turning that and seeking traditional education to like supplement the things you're interested in. Right. Yeah, you're actively looking for the associated wisdom of old, traditional systems education yeah, but not through like you're not at high swine stuffed by any means right, like that's like that. That's more like graduate level degrees in college, but it's been still not through traditional system. Like are going back to school? Dean, I was considering it, which was actually one of the reasons I had I was talking to good was the discussion of whether or not I want to do some form of degree in computer science. I'm still kind of on the fence. I'm not entirely sure, but I'm twenty one, so I think there's quite a bit of time to yeah, I want to. Honestly, I would an I could have with you. I think it's things a lot better. I mean, I never really enjoyed college. It took me ten years so for...

...through degree, but the whole time I'm working like crazy. So it's not like, you know, I don't know. I just feel like there's a there's definitely two types of people. People who succeed in academics or typically, you know, just cut from a different cloth, and I think, I think know someone who's who's technically wow, academics. Those wonder where you're going to go with that. Well, they court you got words about academia. Yeah, it's I love it. I'm I was built for it. It's my favors. That was those you love. That's not what you've told me. Come on, I don't. I don't recommend it to most people. It's not something that everyone should do. It shouldn't be the standard and you can waste a lot of money and time doing it by not having a clear, clear goal of what you're trying to do, especially if you're forcing yourself to do it and you're not cut from that cloth. Yeah, and it seems to me like you have to have a higher threshold bullshit tolerance to get through academics. You Do, just in particles. Maybe I'm wrong about that. Depends on what, depends on where you are, what you're doing. The spect that the variance in curriculum across schools for different degrees is so different that if you can't give like broad statement, brought statements about that. Like for me, I think I had I was incredibly lucky with where I went and who I was taught by, which shaped who I am today and gave me a lot of the skills that I have, which is led to my success. Like, but, like I know a lot of people in very similar situations, in some cases by costmates who did not have the same and so, like, for me it worked really well and I do it over and over and over again. If I had to get the the money and time and lack of responsibility, I would be a professional student for the rest of my life. I would have multiple PhDs and I just stay in school because that's what's in that that's when interest me. But like, that's not a lot of people like, unless we don't give a shit or I don't want to do that. Yeah, it's it's definitely, definitely not me. Will put it to you that way, but it's you know, we need those people. So I'm not trying to sound don't know it. It's just like those different kinds of people in those world night. I really would have benefited, I think, from an apprenticeship program and then joining. Technology has changed quite a bit in terms of access to information. So, like you can get access to a lot of the same information that was typically walled off during a some education course, like some degree the way you don't get typically. I think we as a society or trying to figure out ways of doing it. Is The wisdom associated with how you get that information, what order to take it in. The GOTCHA's like. In my opinion, an expert is someone who knows exactly what not to do. That's usually through experience or making the mistake. I think it's things like, I think a lot of software design. Huh, it's hard to do that on the Internet. Do you end up wasting a lot of kids? It isn't. I've learned that way. That's how I learned. I learned my fucking up. Do you know how I learned? How? How do we do Linux file permissions properly? I blew away a server. I'm not saying alive servers. Now it's terrible it. Don't get me rise. This is like one thousand nine hundred and ninety nine. I've never touched a unique system of my life because everything was windows. You know, that's where all cool games work. A lot of people had like Lennax was still kind of fresh, you know, in a lot of his mindes. I like red hat even ipoed yet, and now they didn't until like two want Italie. So like yeah, like, I'm here, I'm giving this internship and somebody drops a server in front of me and I'm getting sick of suitoing into root or not Sou didn't exist. Ask you into root, and it was annoying the hell out of me. And I'm on the APUX like cluster and it was just like I can't logging into the server every time, for what I was trying to do is money. So I tramutted seven, seven, seven auted. I've never could call it that. Yeah, under what you call it, Schmoz Push, just start calling it. So I literally blew away the server and I'm like here I am like seventeen years old of this physics laboratory where they're doing like high computational stuff, and I'm like, please, don't take away my privileges. They're nice about it. You know the word tape, but you know, it was. It took says, like a day to get that server back online. I mean so I you know, from that point forward I made sure that I knew what the hell of final permissions were and how they worked and why they were that way and how why the operating system does I think it was a hard ass lesson. That's smack me cross aside my face.

But yeah, yeah, I was better to Builper, for it just is that the best way to go about things. Not for everybody, but I tell you what, you made me read that in the course. I'd only memorize it for the course. If I get smack across the space, I'm going to remember, remember it for the rest of my life. All Right, I'd say we wrap up on that. Damn, that's pretty sad. Can you shake can we please like not go through the pack that Colin needs a school hard knocks for Goddamn everything. It's a legitimate point. I think it's conversation if we had some other time for longer, but run out of time here and I wanted to thank Colin for starting this with me, bringing it to where it is and then passing off the torch to two people who I think are going to make it grow even more. So thanks for joining me, Dean and John. I look forward to what we can do with this and Colin, we'll see you back and best of luck. Man, right on, right on. Thanks for having me, thanks for the opportunity to do how she gets can be here. Yeah, thanks, guys.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (128)