Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 83 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #83-Panvala Niran Babalola

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Dr. Corey Petty is joined by John Mardlin as co-host to interview returning guest Niran Babalola of Panvala. This show dives deep into the building of a community and using the subsidies model of Bitcoin to fund communities within the Ethereum ecosystem.

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Now enteringcast work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Welcome back, everybody, to hashing it out. As always, I'm your host, Dr Corey Petty, and today's cohost today is John Mardlin. Welcome to the show. Welcome to your first cohost episode. How's it feel? It feels good. Yeah, ready to ask me sweet questions this to someone brand new in your life. Today we're going to having back on on the show Mr Neuran from the proprietor of Panavala. Welcome to the welcome back to the show. We're going to start talking about kind of what how Panvala has moved since we've had you on previously, in what you're currently in the works on, and kind of bring people at the speed as kind of what it is again, because it's somewhat it's a different approach to something that has been difficult to get done well, since the dawn of time. So yeah, welcome back to the show. It's good to be bad. Thanks for having me. So let's let's start with the the traditional primer. I mean people have people know where you come from. You can just conlisted the episode again. Let's talk directly about what Panbaala is like. What what is it from a very high of ten thousand bird view, whatever that nowge is. So basically, what we're trying to do with Panabaala is generalized the economics behind Bitcoin subsidy model. Lots of people are fascinated with bitcoin and how it works. The thing that I'm most fascinated about is the subsidy model. So, as most people know, the people sending transactions on the bitcoin network are paying a fee, but that feed doesn't even come close to funding the BITCOIN network itself. It's the block rewards that fund the BITCOIN network. If you compare the fees to the block rewards over the past quarter, so it's about sixty times the fees that are being subsidized for security on the BITCOIN network. That's pretty incredible, and the people that are actually funding that are the people who are holding onto bitcoins. Whenever you buy Bitcoin and home on to it. You know that there's going to be twenty one million bitcoins and there's not twenty one million yet. So there's going to be new bitcoins created that dilute euro holdings in the system and those new bitcoins subsidize the operation of the system. That's a pretty cool model. It's worked pretty well and it's subsidizes a network that we can all use. What we're trying to do with Panbaala is generalized that same model and instead of subsidizing bitcoin security or any blockchain security, we want to use it to subsidize your community and the work that's being done that your community values. So that's what we're trying to do. For if you take that same model of fees compared to subsidy, the quarter that ended January, thirty one Panballum, multiply the donations that came in at eleven point two X. and if you look at what we did this quarter with matching donations on get quin grants, there is one point five million tokens that went to people and a hundred fifteen thousand tokens that were donated. That's about twelve x that we were able to match people's donations. That so we think we can continue doing this for about ten years, the same way bitcoins have been subsidizing for about ten years. We think we can keep doing this and we just want to offer it to as many communities is want to use. I think we're going to dive a lot of that, but kind of interested in like what's your take on okay, so bitcoin subsidy model, as you just recently put it, the inflation rate, which is the new bitcoin that gets minted with every block, is for the most part what people are after, what the miners are actually after when they're mining, because the mount in fees is substantially lower, sixty x, as you've just personally put it right. So with the with it. I guess this is a reasonable timing to have this conversation. Like the block rewards, it was just halfd yesterday. I believe this will go Thursday, so a few days for a few days ago. How does that work like? How does that affect the guess subsidizing of the network? And I could have you how much be thought about this, Concius, is concept of the inflation rate and it's effects on the current token holders and people continuing to care and maintain the same ...

...level of care over time as that inflation rate changes. Yeah, so I think what we're going to see in the bitcoin network is that that multiplier is going to go down from X. I don't think it'll be cut in half to thirty X. I think the price will change at some point and maybe get somewhere in between, but over time that that subsidy is going to gradually decrease until it goes to zero, and then people expect that a fee market will be established to operate the network and the Penballa the ideas that it kind of works the same way. We have a multiplier that we expect to decrease over time. So in the early days we expect communities to be really excited about hey, we have this subsidy to operate our community, to do our philanthropy in to do whatever we want to do together. That's really exciting. That gets people involved, but that doesn't last forever. So when that intervening decade or however long these attractive multipliers left us, we have to do the work to make sure that we're building communities that are worth sustaining over time, even when there's no subsidy left to be had. It's just going to be communities operating on their own some day. This is just the way to bootstrap those communities and get them off the ground. So I think people will still be excited about it and when there's no more subsidy. But we have to do the work to make sure that happens. So you're seeing like kind of like the time of the subsidy as being the I guess, the generation of like the signaling market, because what I what I imagined, is been Paanvala is, is the ability to signal where you think money should go, and we can maybe talk a little about that dynamics later. But like, it takes a while to get to the point where you have the cohorts that are have proven useful in signaling and what you get to that point, you can then change how that bottle works based on having some, I guess, reputable source of signaling and will gets up. Whatever signaling means it a little bit because like, like the people who are mining, who would be signaling or about like validity or security of the bitcoin network. I'm just trying to keep this analogy going. Are doing real work, we're doing real computation and some people and some people will give that, like the bottom price of Bitcoin is the amount of energy that goes into the network to secur it. Now, there's arguments to be made there and that doesn't necessarily translate to it to help Pan Vola works. But, like, I guess for it was a question in this like we're just a value come from in pain Valla. So the value comes from two things, though. We, we are very heavily modeled on Bitcoin, the value and bitcoin comes from a community that's loyal to Bitcoin. I think there will be a community that's loyal to Pan Valla because, instead of just seeing a blockchain network being operated by the system, they're going to see their communities thriving as a result of this system and I think as a result, though, want to help keep the system going and be good stewards of the community. But the other thing is, like, if you think about all the bitcoin mining operations that's Brung up since two thousand and nine, like there's all these people that were trying to find all the nooksne and crannies somewhere on earth with the cheapest electricity and the best mining chips that are available. And that was like if you see all the articles about with all the pictures like it's incredible that just somebody launching a piece of software led to that kind of economic actipic. If you take that same mentality and apply, instead of subsidizing security, to subsidizing communities, I think you're going to see something equally asn't as incredible. But instead of trying to optimize your electricity bills, you're going to be trying to provide the public goods, the the themes that communities want, that they've wanted before but didn't have a way to coordinate to fund them. There's going to be people trying to find all those things in one of those gaps and people's lives, and I think that's something that people are going to want to sustain. The value comes from people wanting what the network produces and I think people want thriving communities. Joh How do you feel about this? You're off yourself, staring in the distance, trying to think of what. You're thinking about your muted you're not coming through. So John, as John Works out some Modeo issues, I keep going, how does that work? Right, okay, let's let's let's like it's take me to step by step, like I get I have pan volves. So full disclosure has you get out, has received one of the first grants of the of the pain valatraunches, and so we sit on I think it's around a hundred thousand pan and which we're going to be doing some of the stuff we're going to talk about later, in order to try and you know, allocate funds to public goods. So get that out of the way. We're clearly involved in this in some way, shape or form, or just trying to...

...get the community to under better understand what that means and what it means to be involved with Pan Val. It's not one of those situations really like by some sit on a get rich. It's like a it's an active effort to fun things that will be useful within the communities that are using it. I guess that's it's it's kind of way I see it, John, I think you every sound picks now, I think. I think, yeah, you're good. Well, well, I heard hearing your own answer right. I kind of lost what the question was, but I think it was just what gives it value and I think it's still I think that I don't I don't feel quite entirely satisfied like. Why do I want if I'm not if I don't want to do good, if I'm, you know, by just like, like, is there a place for like, like should a hardcore bitcoin or or like, like at some point? Is there's for the person that just wants to hoard something that will appreciate in value? Like, what's the story for them? I mean, it's a token with the limited supply. If you're into collecting beanie babies, you can also feel like can, but that's core. It's for people who want to subsidize what's going on in their community. So if you the people who hold onto these tokens, they're the ones were that the matching funds come from. It's like Bitcoin, where everyone's getting diluted every time period, and Pambala, everyone's getting diluted, and that's where these matching funds come from. So if you don't want to match people's donations, you probably shouldn't hold on to the token. But if I want to match people's donations, like so many people in the theory and ecosystem do, you can hold onto these tokens and instead of having to be an active philanthropist, where you have to be a very wealthy person and you're giving out your money to match people's donations. You can be a new kind of philanthropist that does your philanthropy by holding onto a token, because the network is going to dilute your holdings and match the match the donations from there. So the so then the act of like selling the token means you are kind of a jerk, not necessarily a jerk. We like, yeah, it's like not interested in the community, I suppose. Yeah, sure, like we like some of our grantee, you have a you have an allocation of funds. It, dude, it your priorities changed depending on how much you need those funds and what you need to be doing with them. Exactly that, like some of our grantees need to pay their bills, like when people are donating pan to these grantees. We don't want to say if you sell your tokens to pay your bills, you're a jerk. You're not a jerk. Pay Your bills if you need to pay your bills, but if you don't urgently need to pay our bills and you'd rather be part of something interesting and new, something that's actually trying to find a new model to sustain communities, then you hold onto your tokens and you become part of it, and it's been great to see so many different people across the theorem ecosystem actually make that choice actively, make that choice when I send them an email at the end of the corner, when they get their grant, and I'm like here, you're tokens, this is how much they're worth at the current market price. You could go sell them on you to swap, or you can hold on to them and be a part of this thing. This is what painball is. And when they reply to me, they say I want to be a part of this. It. It's it makes me feel really good, but it's also fun that I think we're actually onto something here. I think there are people who want to be a part of something like this and that's where the demand for the token comes from. So it is it is like it's kind of value. Is kind of like a lot of tokens. It's in the meme right, like just in people wanting it because other people want it, because they feel good having it. That's that's one way to think about it. I mean, like, I mean that's not the primary to die again, like there's they're actually people who buy these tokens to make their donations because they make their prisons in hand, their donations are going to be matched. So people there's a demand for those token. That comes from people wanting to use it for its purpose to make the NY. There's also a demand for the token that comes from people who want to hold onto the token to subsidize their community. So that's another sort of demand. Like it's not just hold because other people might want it some day. Like we want the people who hold it to be people who are using it, and that's what we're trying to encourage people to do with the staking program all right, so, and I a little bit. I just want to like just just finished that. My thought is like because because I've had this explain to me by neuron so many times and I go in and out of understanding it, and so, like I what it. What I like about it, when I do get it, is that it is a way of buying things. It gives it sort of gives you a put some market on things that you normally can't buy that you would like to to purchase in some cases. So, like you can, you can always donate to a good cause, but this seems to be an interesting new way of funding public goods that are hard to purchase in other ways. If I could buy a less climate change, I would buy that. Like I hope it evolves into that. For these early days,...

...like there's there's no necessarily you won't be able to see a price for solving climate change or anything, but what you will have there's a new economic tool to try to make that sort of thing happen. So if you think about governments, they all have this economic tool that powers our activity. We call it currency. And if you think about corporations, they all have this economic tool that powers their work and we call it stuck. But for the third sector of our society, for the civic sector of our society, or things are done on a voluntary basis. You find people who are like minded, you just cooperate to get stuff done. We don't have economic tools to power our operation. We just taken money and spend money. So I think that if we had economic tools to power that third sector of our economy, that's civic sector of our society, then we would be able to rely more on those kind of organizations, not organizations that are how to make a profit, not organizations that are monopolies that we have to debate over what we do, but instead of voluntary sector where we're just trying to find like minded people and do whatever we can to get stuff done, if we had that economic tools to power that kind of activity, I think the focus of our public life would be more on those rather than divisive winner take all politics, and that's really where I get a lot of my inspiration from. You could solve problems like the ones that you're mentioned in without having to pass a bill. You just find people who want to solve them with you, ignore everybody else and get your work done, and I think we have that economic tools to start doing that. Okay, I'll pass Mike back of correct. So I think it it behooves us to I want to try and explain my current understanding of Pan Vala, and there's a few holes in it, and so, based on my explanation, it should be very clear with my holes lie. So, as it stands today, there is a group of people who have received grants in Pan Vala based on a series of like trunches. So basically this is the series of inflation where, at this point we introduce this amount of Pan Vala and the ecosystem and it was that it delegated to these specific people who receive grants. So now we have a bunch of cohorts of people who hold Pan Valla and a probably smaller minority of people who have bought and sold it and used it for various purposes within within the ecosystem. All right, cool, we have a group of people who hold varying amounts of Pan Valla with different motives. Basically, we I think we get this point, we can say they're all in the etherym ecosystem looking to make it better. Cool. Is that that? That's that's all true. Right, yes, okay, next, next step. You've created this concept called a staking pool, which is a way for people who are holding pan to come together and basically say, I'm going to do stuff up with this pan steak in my pool, and it's somewhat of a signaling thing. It allows me to say, like, if you don't want to pay attention to where money should be allocated, on the next trunch, on the next trunch of grants, because you're no longer just giving it out to random people that you that you deem were they or who their community teams worthy? It's the next trounch of Pan Vala like, through the subsidy, as you call it, like a bitcoin block reward, is going to be allocated in a very specific way, and that is kind of what these staking pools are signaling should be getting grants, and they do that through, I think, allocating or like donating Pan to get coin grants as well as it is a method, right, and so, based on what these pools do, will tell you what how the the new money coming in should be allocated, and that's the ends up as the pools signaling what should be funded through giving small grants. It's like small allocations of Pan based on what they have, and then the new trunch subsidy of money coming in matching that and giving it a specific multiplier based on how big each pool is. So all of the people in the community are holding pain and having pools are doing a lot of the work and that they say we feel that this thing should be given attention and funding, and that's in that attention is weighted by the size of their pool and so you don't have to do any work and saying like well, I have all this new money that's coming into this new traunch where do I put it? You have the pools that do that for you. Is that it did. What did I get wrong? So that's close. So we're kind of staking clusters. So what they what they do is less about curation. It's not that they're saying, hey, here's the stuff, that's the best of fun. What they're doing is there. They're basically providing a subsidy for their own community. So it's saying,...

...like if I'm running the hash it out, hashing it out staking cluster, it's saying I want the hashing it out listeners to be able to have matching funds for the donations that they make. So it's not necessarily about you making donations as the stakers. You're making steaker. You're staking so your audience, so your community can make donations and have them matched. So the what you do as a community is decide what donations qualify for your matching. If you want to subsidize any donation, then you can. You can include every good coin grant on your list and you say hey, hashing it out audience, any donation that you make, just tag it with hashing it out and it's going to get matched by the pool that we have earned for you by staking the tokens that we hold. We are being diluted. So you, the hashing it out audience, can have your donations matched. But but what we expect most communities to do is be selective, because there's not every grant on goodcoin. Grants deserves to be fun. It does not. So what we expected that most communities will go through a process, whatever governance process they want, and decide what they want to subsidize for hashing it out. It might actually be everything. It might be what Corey and John Decide makes sense to subsidizes. Other communities might go through their governance process that they already have. So might be token holders in a Doo saying this is what we're going to subsidize, and might be a one person, one to vote community saying this is what we're going to subsidize. It might be just one man decides at all, community deciding what they're going to subsidize. But then when people make donations in the next match and tag it with that community, it's going to be subsidized from that pool and it's going to give a credit to that pool, because you only earn a matching budget with donations that come in, the more donations you get, the more matching budget you get up till your community's capacity, and the capacity is what you earned by staking. When you stake your tokens, you're saying, hey, we get x percent of Pan Vallo's matching budget because we have x percent of the stake the staking tokens. So that's what staking really accomplishes. It gets you a share of Pan Valo's matching budget and then you're offering that to your community to be able to match the donations that they make. All right, cool, so they let me rephrase what I've sent them and I'm going to use hashing it out as an example here. We hashing it out have a specific amount of pan. It's a hundred thousand, hundred thousand pan at this moment. That's that's some percentage of all pain available. Right, all the money in the world, right, but some percentage of all the pan that's available. And so when we say like all right, hashing it out community, we have delegated by the hand of Cory, that these four projects in Geitcoin are available to people subsidized by our pool. So if you make a donation to any of the any of these four that I've deemed worthy. They will be additionally matched by the next tronch of Pan Tokens, and my community is like, awesome, we're going to do that. And since my community is so huge, what's going to happen is that they're just going to have a tremendous amount of donations towards those specific projects. I know that in when you're plains to be before there's a waiting factor, right, because we only have a hundred thousand. They may not be enough or like then that may not be a lot in comparison to the total pool of Pan. And so we get the maximum amount of like amplification, of Matt of matching from Pan Up to a certain level, and after that it's a diminishing return. So, like if we have some tremendous amount, it goes maximum matching and then starts to teeter out. They still get additional matching, it just won't be as much. Right, exactly that you earn more capacity with the more tokens that you state. A hundred thousand pen have. There's a total supply of a hundred million. Pain of that the current circulating supply is about twenty two million. I believe so it's actually like, if you think of the ether supply, it's a hundred something million. So if you're trying to think of the share the supply, it is it's kind of like if you had a hundred thousand either. But like the share of the sticks tokens. Imagine that sensors for right now. Just imagine that they're they're all staking equally and you have twenty five percent of the capacity of pain vallas matching budget. The matching button next quarter happens to be one point five million tokens. So you're basically competing with other pools to get as many donations as you can cut earn more clusters, clusters, clusters, because there's no software, you're just sticking your tokens together with the other people in your community who want to support that matching budget. And if I wanted to say increase the amount that has the maximum matching from the people who donate...

...on behalf of our of our cluster, then I need to get people to stake their tokens with our cluster exactly that. So, starting on June eight we're going to basically run a campaign or, instead of just telling people about how to start a pool. We're going to just stick with the pools that we have class and get people to start a cluster, stick with the clusters we have, and then we're going to get people to add tokens to those clusters. So it's basically activating those communities that exist and saying that if you think your community should have a higher share of pain ballas matching budget, stick your tokens on this cluster so can have more capacity. Until the first round actually happens, people are going to really know what capacity that they needed right because if you're beneath your capacity, you didn't necessarily need those extra token sticks, but it's just nice to have as much capacity as you want. After the first round we're going to see what the outcome was, which different clusters got a different share of the donations, which exceeded their capacity, and then people are going to know, a, we exceeded our capacity. We need to get more people of stick tokens so we can actually get our share of pain Baala's matching budget. Yeah, I don't know what to ask. That makes low sense. What makes you think it's going to work? Why did you change it? Why did you introduce the concept of clusters? Because that you didn't hate to have this. This is this is a relatively new thing. Why did you introduce it? So this is a relatively new thing. I definitely think it's going to work. This concept is actually in the white paper that I wrote back in June. So, like when we were the first metaphor that we use for pain vall all it's a weird, nebulous thing, right. The first metaphor was that it was a decentral decentralized foundation. So that's what we were doing first, when we were just giving out these grants to people. But it was always envisioned is not a thing where there's this central decisionmaking on the grants that are issued. It was envisioned as a system with subsidiaries, that is, communities could plug into Pan Vala and get their benefits from Pan Vala rather than needing to come to consensus on everything so to get the system off the ground. That's too complicated of a thing to exist, and it wasn't obvious that people even understood where we were going until April. And April was after we'd started relying heavily on the bitcoin analogy and we ran our geitcoin matching round which people understood. There were over two hundred donations to over a hundred different projects made in pain. We got to match those donations at X. People understood how that worked. So once they got that part the economics of the system, now it's time to show people what to do with those economics. You could do anything with us. With a system that can multiply the donations that come in, you could kind of do anything. What I think makes the most sense is to use these economics to create a League of communities, a League of communities that are trying to get as many donations as they can to achieve whatever goals they have, but that are cooperating because whenever any of the organizations in this league, whenever any of them succeed, they're all increasing the demand for pain and we all run on a pad. We all want the other communities to succeed. We want our community to succeed. It allows people to cooperate together because, again, if the system is multiplying the donations that come in, you could go start your own thing and that multiplies the donations that come in. But if it's a if it's a constant factor, then you could just cooperate with those people and you didn't lose anything. If you if you share the same system, you can end up better off than you would be if you are separate. So that's what we're trying to illustrate here. That what what I see. That what I think we should do with the economics of the system is create a League of communities that work together to accomplish whatever goal those individuals, communities have individually and together to grow. So that's kind of where these clusters came from. It's the start of this league of communities and with these four that we have started with the intention that if the economics of the system work, if you can actually get the kind of multiplier that Bitcoin has, then you won't have four communities, you'll have basically a vibrant civic sector of our society that starts to rise as a result of having the economic tools that it needs to thread. So what are these four communities that you keep mentioning? Oh, so we announced today the staking system and how it works. So the for that are the initial steak clusters are common stack. So they're doing some cool work with token economics and bonding curves, hashing it out. As we've mentioned...

...previously, what what adapt no, they're it's did in making sure that the infrastructure projects that funded in that anybody can run the infrastructure, and Meta cartel one of the most fascinating dowals that's out there and that's trying to spread the knowledge of how to start these dows on how to run them effectively. So those are the first for staking clusters. We expect to create a couple more before June eighth and then on that week of June eighth we're going to get people to stick their tokens in the different clusters and try to increase the capacity of the that first batch of clusters and the next round of your coin grants will start taking in donations to the different projects and giving them credit and matching budgets for whatever they've earned, and then we'll repeat for the next quarter, although for the next quarter hopefully we have more clusters, because more and more people want to benefit from panaballs matching budget. So I see a potential, necessarily problem, but more work for you or some coordination issue that's going to come up, and that is, how okay. So, as it currently stands, most of the matching and the kind of selected projects that are worse. Matching for or done on Gitcoin and Geitcoin is a stance. Today is probably the most broadly used platform for funding projects and signaling what projects should be funding based on their they're matching stuff right. First, how are you going to track individual donations and what cluster they belong to? And second, when things move away from Geitcoin, how do you track that? Good question. So the current plan for tracking the donations and assigning them to clusters for this next batch is to convince people to Hashtag their donations. So when you make a donation, just there's a common field on every donation. Just do Hashtag, hashing it out and for all those will give the credit to the right CLUSS cuss cool. We think that get coin is doing a great job at facilitating these donations. Before getcoin started doing their quadratic funding rounds, there was effectively no culture in the theorem community that donating to stuff that you appreciate was the thing that people should do, and now happens every quarter like clockwork. It's really fascinating to watch. So I we want to continue being a part of that. There's some projects where they might not be like technical projects, that want to receive funding and the kind of goal that I'm trying to get people online on is to build out a League of communities where there's one that fits everybody. So instead of just being a theium related projects, maybe one day it's a bitcoin and Z cash related projects. And then what maybe one dayance that are just being crypto projects. It's different cities trying to get give grants the people and maybe the local crypto community that are doing the work that gets people activated, organizing events the glue of those local communities and spread out from there. Maybe we're trying to find all the different programming languages that could potentially benefit from having a matching better from this thing and go from there. So get quine is definitely our focus for now. We're going to keep using it. They when we tell them that there are things that we need, but they build it. So we're going to keep using that. If if we need to use other stuff, will use other stuff, but I think get coins the place to be great. Get like it, like you said, like they give you the ability to have a reasonable and of verification that someone did a donation and tag the specific cluster, which allows you to do your accounting appropriately. When you start to spread outside of that and have a myriad or different ways in which people can say they donated to something or signal that they donated something and attributed to some cluster, that's going to increase your were work to verify it if it's not built into the system itself. Yeah, so the part that is built into the system is like there's actually a way to make donations that are verifiable on chain. You just donate them back directly into Pan Ball as token supply. This matching approach that we've taken. It's been the one that's been most effective. So that's why we're doing it that way. But it's time goes on, it's a lot easier to verify donations that go directly into pan balls token supply. Because he gave away the tokens. You didn't just send them to a different address on the black chain, he sent them back into the token supply. So that's the long term direction, making sure that the donations themselves go back into the token supply,...

...so we don't have to verify that a donation was made. You literally donated it into the system and then you would. So the donation goes in there and then the newly minted or released or issued Pan Tokens are the same amount as what is sent back into the system, is given to the receiver in that case, yes, that's even mount plus the match from the token supply. Right. So like a part of this, like reasonably, if people didn't make a donation on Kickcoin, they can just say they could sit, they could donate to the token supply and say this is for this particular grant, and then that ends up becoming the same thing as if they've made the donation themselves in Pan, on Gitcoin. Exactly that. Like in an ideal world, get coin would integrate directly with Pan Bala and that's what to be happening on the platform, and then would be a lot easier to tract. But we don't live in an ideal world and the solution works pretty well, so we're going to keep doing until the breaks. All Right, I'm into that. That's fine, and it's you if it gets so, if it gets to the boots of terrible phonologist, when I use I was sick, gets the boots off the ground, but that's not a thing to get you started. Awesome. So what's next? Good of Mark John Good I was really interesting, like like how you were, because I've always understood Pam Ballad to be like the etherium communities way of funding itself, and you're talking about, you know, like bringing Zcash and and Bitcoin and like, you know, our mortal enemies to receive funding from. I say that in joking. I have no time or interest in tribalism, but but, like, it does seem like it dilutes the the purity of the funds that are sort of like and and the idea that this is people gathering together to fun public goods, when it becomes more of a separate factions seeking to obtain a larger share of the issuance of the and direct it more towards the public goods that they want. So that's actually what we want to illustrate, what I think we should want to illustrate because, like I think you can there's there's two things here. One is that having different factions that are normally normally see themselves as mortal enemies together cooperating is great to me. I think we have society that is divided for dumb reasons and that if it could figure out ways to get people to cooperate, that would be great if we could illustrate that and the crypto world. Maybe we could also play that to the real world. But is its cooperation? Yeah, I believe that it's cooperation because, again, in the theorial world there was no culture of donations. It started to be created by Gitcoin and I think with Panbala we're going to amplify that even further. That same thing exists in other crypto communities where there's no culture of contributing to the things that you want, and I think we're going to create that from scratch in those communities. So when that culture exists, they're going to be saying, Hey, donate to the stuff that we need, and they're also going to see that when other communities succeed, when a theorium succeeds or Z cache exceeds, the value available to the Bitcoin community also increases. So that's where I think you get people cooperating because they don't want other communities to get fewer donations, they just want their own to increase as well. So that's that's where I think you'll get a positive cooperative feedback loop going. Potentially. There are no guarantees and we always want to look out for any amplifying tribalism, because I don't want to be responsible for that. But the hypothesis is that it gets people to cooperate. The second's super important is that I think what we have here is a fundamentally new way for cooperations. Happened so like when people saw bitcoin get off the ground from nothing. It really captivated people. Everybody has our story about how they dove in and read everything there was to read. That mindblown moment where you're like, digital goal is actually possible and it's incredible. I had that moment a couple years later after with the digital gold. I had it with Oh my gosh, you could subsidize anything for a extended period of time and it would just work. So I want people to have that mindblown moment and not the whole situation where it's like, Hey, you have this one kind of digital goal. You could create all these different kinds of digital gold. I won't people understand that with this new way that we can cooperate, we can do it not just for individual communities, we can do it together. If if that's actually true, then I think what you get is, as I've been describing this civic sector of...

...our economy and that's kind of dormant right now. There's not a lot of most people aren't as civically engaged as they used to be outside of politics and just with involuntary organizations. That feels to me like it's declined dramatically from the stories that I read of how things used to be. I think we're going to see that rise up again and people will care less about which party needs to win an election and more about what they're doing within their particular communities to get what they need to get done done. So that's why I think it's so important to bring different communities together, because that's where we're going to end up. We're going to end up with so many different communities doing their own thing and they're going to start off by getting subsidized by pain ball and still can supply and ten, fifteen years from now it's going to be no more subsidy. It's just going to be those communities sustaining themselves and I think what we'll end up with is a community for every kind of person with every kind of goal, working together to make sure that they can all find each other, because at the end of the day, they're not competing over what comes from pain Valla. They want there, they want everybody else to get as many donations as possible and they also want their own organization to get as many donations as possible. I think that's kind of I think there's a potential to align the interests of a mosaic of communities rather than trying to find some way to get everybody on the same page. You don't need to be on the same page beyond a different page, but have something that ties you together. Yeah, there's a I've kind of fascinated by this. Like this, this concepts right of codifying subsidies, and then you have this that, I don't know the term got coopetition of the cohorts within the ecosystem that all like and but the unifying factor. Let's take Bitcoin, for example. Right, Bitcoin has value, because everyone agrees that Bitcoin has value and it is a provably digital skit digitally scarce. Right, it's that's the problem. It solved. You have digital scarcity and you have ownership of that digital scarcity and a very, very, very solidified way of introducing it into the ecosystem. Right. That through subsidies and that then gets spread around based on a myriad of interest groups and what they think they should be doing with the agreed upon value of what that token is. But that's all for money, right. That's that. That's the money version of of that concept. And if you look at what you're trying to do with Pan Vala, it's the I don't know. The subsidy is more about a community attention, like and the coopetition that it is involved with the entire ecosystem of pain of people who are using Pan Vala. Is this is me and my ilk, this is this is the like the cluster is my community in a way, and this is what I deem to be important. And as that subsidy comes so I'm doing the quote unquote, mining my cluster is and the and then what happens is that when I receive the block rewards, which is the eat that, like the subsidy coming in every so and so time, it gets allocated to what I think is important. So as that attention grows and that unified agreement that we want to be sucking at the teat of the subsidy, if you will, then, like you have few have more and more and more people vying to grow their size of their cluster, their community, to get more and more of the allocation of the incoming subsidy right, and then Yep, and and then the process of that like it's but the weird part about that is that the subsidy isn't going to the cluster, it's going to what the cluster thinks is important. So it forces you to think about what needs to be done to grow what that cluster thinks is important, instead of saying I'm doing it for myself for greed reasons, which is typically a financial reward, and most of what the incentives are around Bitcoin is like. It's we've overwhelmed the incentives in such a way where you should you should do the right thing because you're going to make the most money that way. This is kind of trying to optimize the incentives in such a way where I want to allocate to the things that are most viably useful in the future and I'm going to try and convinced enough people to join my cluster so that it gets more money and it's more likely to have is that. Am I getting this right? Because I find this concept really fascinating, an interesting especially if from a community perspectives, and how it grows. You're getting this absolutely right, and I think what's really interesting as that happens is that the same way that we see the culture transform and these...

...communities over time, where Bitcoin had this culture of convincing everybody to hold the theory and had this culture of convincing everybody to build, I think what you're going to get as Panbala takes hold is a culture where everyone's donating, everyone's giving, everyone's joining some sort of smaller subcommunity that they want to be part of, and we can spread that commune, that that culture as far as we want that that kind of lack of connection that a lot of people feel right now as a result of modern life or whatever theory people have about why we got this way. To me, there's a tangible way back or tangible way forward that brings people back together. Actually incentivizing community is something that I don't think has ever happened before because, again, the civic sector of our economy, in our society has been deprived of those tools. So if you imagine a civic sector that had the same kind of juice of silicon valley or the same kind of money printer going brewer as the Federal Reserve juice in the civic sector of our economy rather than corporations. I think something incredible would happen and it would happen all through individual people, and they're our communities deciding to do it. Because, again, I can't make people do anything. I don't own any like. I don't own anything that people need. I there's just the system that we published to a digital scroll in the cloud that are courts. Who has this token? WHO's doing well with it? And together, if it's something that we actually want and our heart of hearts to find the people that we want to cooperate with and do stuff together, I think we're going to have more resources to do that than we ever did before, and that to me seems like it's going to be a wild ride. You've kind of made the money printer. That was the goal. You just kind of made a money printer and set us a set up, set across a bunch of rules. This is like, this is how the money princher works and this is where it goes. So see what happens. To be follow the rules and the rules you made are trying to centivize communities to be better. It's right. So when you're trying to design a money printer that people are going to voluntarily coordinate around. It's interesting because there's really two problems that you need to sell. One is, like most money printers that are out there, require some sort of law, some sort of government force to get people to accept that they exist. Well, the government wants you to use their money. They have laws that force you to use their money. If you have a debt, you have to accept their money and if you're going to pay taxes, you got to paid on their money and also you have to pay taxes. So if you're going to create a voluntary kind of currency, how do you do that in a way that people will just adhere to, that people will see their own incentive and operating with the system? And that's been what I've been trying to wrap my head around for a couple of years. And I think the way you do it is by trying to as much as possible, delegate the matching budget of the system to communities themselves to make sure that each community is on an equal playing field with other communities and to make sure that they have a way to decide together what they like, what their rules are, what's allowed what's not, because I think you can get a lot of people to agree that the same made up money is both worth something and worth using, worth organizing a community round. And if that's true, I think we're going to see something pretty incredible. Neph really interested in this. It's like a it's definitely a new way of getting people to coordinate based on some arbitrary agreement. Right, it's it's, it's but it's getting people to try and harness human attention in a better way, quote unquote, better way. Most of everything we do now is is is trying to get the hardest attention in some way, shape or form. This is trying to harnessh attention which seemingly in like a beneficial way. But I'm curious to see how it pays out. Johnny, anything anything else here we can start to wrap up? Well, I think. Yeah, I think it's gonna be interesting to see how this, this next round of getcoin grants plays out and so maybe be get to hear about like like when night is and and how people can fall along with basically backing our it's not a pool, it's a cluster, how they can back our cluster to the grades effect. Awesome.

So the next round of Getcoin grants starts on June fifteen. Sometimes the schedule steps a little bit, but it's currently scheduled for June fifteen. And the general ideas that when that time comes, you're going to want to make your donations in Pan and you're going to want to hashtagger donations with hashing it out, and that's how you earn from the matching budget that hashing it out is going to earth. You'll want to make those donations to the project that they select. So again, like it won't be every project I'm get coin grants I will earn from hashing it out. It's going to be the ones that they pick. So in the week before that, if you want to actually be a part of their cluster, you can do that too. So if you think that the capacity of hashing it out, smashing budget, should be larger than ends up being, then you can add your tokens and you can stick and you can help earn this matching budget for your community, the fellow people who listen to this podcast and are part of what we're trying to do here. So you'll be able to stake, you'll be able to make her donations and have them matched and as we keep going. If this sounds like something that you want to be a part of, you can help shape how this theme ends up going. You can join the Panbaala CACCUS, which is basically Pan Baala's version of the theorem cord devs. We make recommendations every quarter about what the budget should be used for and, like an etherium where the miners can accept or reject with the Cord Dev say, the token holders can accept or reject what the pinballacocus says by basically issuing a competing recommendation which triggers with vote. So we want you to be part of the Pan Baalacoccus. There's about twenty two or twenty three of us right now and we want to keep growing and we want as many people to be involved as possible. So yeah, like again, I think this is a really big deal, but I've been thinking this for a long time and I might just be a crazy person. Do you also think it's a really good deal, a really big deal? Then I want you to be involved in it because it's going to have a big impact on the world. Well, we keep having it back because we like the idea right I'm not been following you for a while. I've been trying to grasp it. I've been one. I've been wanting to help push for the idea of funding, funding communities for what they think they should be funded for in an equitable way, and this is an instigay to do it. So thanks or come back on. Thanks for powering through and let's let's try something this next quarter. Thanks for having me and thanks for starting a staking cluster. I hope to see it grow over the years.

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