Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 94 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #94- Marco Rodrigues Web 3.0

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Marco from The Slack (You Should Join)talks with John and Corey about the fundamental underline infrastructures of the internet and how Web 3.0 should look like in the future now.

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Everybody got an awsome episode for hetoday, but first Gointa do a word from our sponsors aswell as give you a little more administrative stuff going on in theback end, an hashing it out, and things were involved in that you can m. Youcan become a part of so first off, like thank you, think oursponsors Avalanche Avalanche Lance, the highly scalable open source platformfrom launching decentralized financial applications recently raised aboutforty two million dollars through a public sale and no giring up for itsnext milestone. Next week, the launch of its main net on September, twentyfirst, that's right, they're launching their main net September. Twenty firstso get prepared also to strap the ecosystem. Mavalancheopened up a bunch of new grants for developers who want to build highperformance defi, that's de centralized, financed applications andinfrastructure. They have open calls for projects like a decentralizeexchange. liting depts stat coins ND with Morenin every week, so they alsoaccept applications for other disentrolnced projects to join theAVALANCHICCA system, so go bild an avalanche, build without limmits and golearn. Morit AV, a lab DOTBORG, THAT'S AVA! La Bs Dotwork, as for we're doing in hashing it out Um, there's two things I want to talk aboutfirst, is hashing out is a part of the PannValaleague. If you ont know what panball is look back, if few episodes A,we did um an episode with Neuron about what Pinmoll is, how it works so and soforth. It's a really awesome project that we're havinbing, part of so Um. This round, Panvala is donating about.I think current Pan prices about a hundred and seventy thousand dollars to the ethereum community. How does itdonate those things? Where does it figure out how to donate them? Well,the Panvalla League has gipcoin grants and Hashin N OT is part of the PENVALOleage, so we have a gitpoin grant. There, basically is a multisick and ifyou donate to the GITCOIN grant with Pan it will get matched not only by theclr matching of typical coin grants, but also, additionally, by m a hundredand seventy tousand dollars that penfall is giving out and then we'regoing to use that money that's raised through that grant. With the advice and UM decisions hold from the AtherianSecurity Community to fund security in in infrastructure projects. I webelieve that hashing out that security, an EW prestructure, is a veryunderfunded but incredibly vitally important part VECO system that needsmore funs. So we're going to try and do that and you can help by donating panor whatever to ti the get cin grant. That's going to be the description ofthis episode, so Pitapan don't en it to us we'llfind a good place for it tohelp smelt the security and introstructure of the theomico systemand other big news. I don't think I've mentioned on the podcast yet is hashing.It out is leaving the bitcoin pond cast network because the Dicoin Pot gestnetwork is no longer a network. It's just a bick oin PODCASS, so over the next, maybe ten or so episodeswe're going to be continuing on this. This fee that you're subscribe to now,but in the process there's going to be a new feed, that's only going to behashing it out. They oll need to resubscribe to because at the end,you're not going to be able to get it on the feed youreon. Now the DianPogass, so we're going to have ther own thing: Rene, new branding, Um Tryand,add u some more resources and so on and so forth to the show so that you can bea little more stable. U, I don't know we'll see, butwe're going to have on feed check out, listen up for it check the twitter, seewhenever we publish that, but at least you could just listen to us, no oneelse. It's going to be great bick Wen pod, Gessis, going where I'm stilldoing that. It's just two different feeds now and onto the show,...

...welcome to hashing it out apoast forretalk to the ATECK, intovators, beind, blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds togut at Wyan how peoplefilled this technology, the problems they face along the way CIME, Listeninand learn from the best in the business. You can join Teir, Rek caskit out on stock cortpetty withMister John Mardlin. I do John Ou goold Toac o good today Na today's episode, we're on to talkTomarco Rod, Regas Um Marco's been in the in potcast flak for quite a while.As a contributor, I've actually had the pleasure of sitting down with himduring was it defcon. Three Yeah heveryone was in Mexico, so on wasin cankers ORT re, either way. Um In and out, Marca said interestingthings that I've always found fascinated around the implications ofinternet infrastructure, Um to Tho WIMP, three movement on so forth. Wou have alot of knowledge and work experience inbasically how the Internet is built in the itrestructure that types, thenetwork packets across from my computer, to your computer or whatever else andkind of how that's built and what motivates how it's built. So I wanno ino bring you ont to have a conversation about that concent o one to just O,bring it up, because it's not really talked about very much but too like todiscuss some of these like the way the Internet's moving in terms ofinfrastructure and why it's moving that way and then how the PTE peer docentralization web three movement whateveryou want to call it. How that impacts that that, likearchitectural movement, Tha msense s it so thet intarel thing tell you whereyou come from, which Doopor yethere's a bit of background Um. I mean for aslong as I can remember. Probably since I was preteen like probably ten oreleven, I was just fascinatedg with cin activity, so I remember spending a lotof summers just putting together my own computers, working with motems and justfiguriout how in Onnec to work and then started getting interested andfascinated with online gaming and the best way to make sure your clan andquake. The other team was understand how the network works, a you, can deetow temand make sure they were lagged out and you can trag 'em. So it kind otook it from there. You know, and then I would say the last twenty five years:I've pretty much involved in some form or another in internet intrastructure.So it started with me working with a small. I P midsize Ice Pin Canada andwe build out their national infrastructure, and then I immigratedto the United States back in two thousand and seven or eight interestingtiming ne this tosay. But I work for a large vendor. That's sold networkingequipment Um to the largest serve irviders in the world, the newworeoperators or the Mobil network operators, as you guys, iprobably knowthem as well, and so I've be n. You Know v just been pretty much in tunewith not only the technology but the whole process of operating and buildingthese large network, cempes structures. So I'd say lately Um The lady, the kindof the web, three movint and y actually was kindof interested just in the wholecripto in general, and why II've been kindof just it's kind of been a hobbyof mine mainlygaes. The Energy Energy reminds me a lot of what the Internetenergy was in. The early nineties, the aspirations of what it was trying tobuild this whole decentralize, the you know, movement towards free flowinginformation, but lately you know, as things tend to happen over time as youget all these economic incensives. That line up and the reality sets in a lotof centralization has been happening on how these infrastructure actually run H.Therefore, you know the whole web. Three movement is kind of like thisreawakening of how you decentralize or...

...kind of peel back the onion and try toget I back to the roots of what I call the Internet. So that's kind of a Bi abit of a brief Intro, where I came from my current roll, I'm just a I work fora decentralized or sor distribute a cloud platform company. That's a Banalogous to what we do, but it's a it's part of my day job. I won't bringit up here, but I I'm the VP product and solutions there and that kind ofconsumes h most of my time, but I tend to kind of pop in and out out of theweb threespace relative t infrastructure. I've giventalks as well, where I can, when they're local MEETUPSUM recently I've seen some switter threads. A lot of the BCS in the Cryptospase are are kind of you know poking their heads out and looking at howInternet infrestructure is being built as well. So I've found that it was kindof timely to have this conversation as well. Hence the enthusiasm, the hop onand chat about it. Nice, John Yoka, you perked up a little bitwhen you said Canadian iest, I I you ave, h, lady Hav, H, pardon it was a prim primas Candada wasth. Is Pe h, the Primes Candada? Was He intenis, serice Viter, so man, I just naturalized into U Scitizen earlier this year heard of the ongraduations? Yes, but I still have planned, be in crespect of thati. I still have my Canadian and Portuese passports. R Portdin't know that yes, so yeah S, Tri got the tryfactor there yeah Resilata,that's yeah there right on so uh yeah. I guessO E perspective, like maybe it's worthwhile, to discuss the trends, ind Internet infrastructure and what'smotivating them like how like what are they what's their current, I guess capacity and how are they trying toinnovate in order to handle that capacity? So reality has a very little innovationhappening, Tho space, naturally with any commoditized business, it's kind of an iron right, usually when a service or a product, in thiscase the Internet in this case, become so successful Um. It gets COMODITIED,naturally out of its own success. 'cause everyone just figures out waysto optimize it, so the whole industry, at least when I was very in it about ayear and a half two years ago, was facing a lot of margin compression.Therefore, there was very little innovation happening in thes space,more about optimizing for costs right and the downside. There is there's lessinnovation happening on how to evolve the technology in a way that maybe goesbeyond just the day to day stuff like just increasing my speeds and speeds,making sure I can deliver. You know five G M Ra structure more efficientlyto the homes versus something like space, actes, doing right Y list launchfour thousand satellites in the air and try to reinvent how Internet anactivities is Kinda happening. So you won't see a lot of traditionalinnovation happening in the incumbents B t. What you will see is a lot of newplayers coming upto the space like space ets with you know. It takes atremendous amount of capital to kind of build this inprostructune, but theykind of t you now take it a step back, um alternate t comes down to just um h thecost right 'cause. What people winl realize is you know these are all in balance sheets anywayspublicly. You can see. Companies like you know like an att or Horizon Um theamount of money they spend on just operating the infrastructure, let alonethe capital needed to build the infrastructure. We're talking intotwenty thirty billions of dollars a year right, so naturally they're going to want tooptomize that cost overtime, and they have been because it's all about youknow increasing margin, their fore shareholder value. That's kind of theway the you know publicly listed companies work and if you kind of goback to the nineteen nineties, one perfect example I' like to always bringup was Um ittorn. You know if the kids are old enough to remember. Bi Tornbottom line is lie PTP from projects like a IPFs, um heavily rely on thetorn contept point to point essentially and what was happening back then in thenineties. Is You didn't have this...

...little huge amount of bandwith like you havenow um in the homes and even now? Arguably a lot of your trapic at homeis Asommetric, meaning traffic is optimized for downstreams Han at hisuptream, like he usually gets the hundred gig down orse our hunted magsdown or one get down, he very limited upstreet and that's why that's bydesign, because the traffic patterns of individuals are that it's all aboutconsumption, less about producing content. But if you go back to thenineties, you know the whole bit torn thing came out. Then, as a protocol,people started latching APPs. On top of it, then you had things like naster andnater kind of exploded right and then from there. You started seeing all thispoint to point traffic flowing on these internet providers networks ander likein the beginning, it was pretty benign they're, like hey all right, fine buts.What started happening is it started? Growing people are using it to sharemusic videos, legal or Beagle Antilegal doesn't matter at the end of the day.What was happening was at the last mile from your home or your cell towers whenthose devices that connect to were getting congested right and naturally,when you have a paint customer saying, Hey, I'm trying to hit Google DOT COM,why isn't it working Internet sercevid s not going to turn around and saying?Well, you know Joe Shemo down the street. Is You know, he's uploading afive gig video of the latest D v D, Rip of some movie right, so naturally, whatwhat happened was they created a whole new industry called DPI which is dpackan inspection and yet companies literally formed whole new markets. WheE. The only goal was to filter the traffic and drop it. They did uniquethings like they would. They would tickle the PCP windows, so it wouldcollapse. So therefore, you thro put will go down. The bottom line is theystarted filtering the traffic of point opoint right and that happened in thenineties Um and it was pretty bad bad back then, because the band withtechnology didn't didn't. It wasn't keeping up right, because your yourhome was still limited to ten fifteen megs more importently the aggregationpoints they they were very expensive as well, so they created two three billiondollar industries: Companies where they would pretty much design to just filterpoint to point traffic, but naturally overtime. What happened was you hadevolution of technology? You got the the cable plants started evolving. Yougot fiber coming to the home, so there's more and more bandwith thatstarted being delivered to the home. So less of the D Pi was happening at theedge now fast forward to today. What you see happening is very similar tothe point I was mentioning earlier about margin compression. You have allthis marging compression happening in the industry and the and you know atthe end of the day, they can't charge you or me three, four or five hundreddollars a month right, at least that's not the expectation h to to tate. Sowhat do they do? They start saving costs and other part of the network.All Right! Fine, you know the natural, the natural behavior will be all right.You know what does petty do at home. What is you know what what is Jon doingat home Um and they see you know. Eighty ninecentor traffic is downstream, hey out of th eighty ninety percent, maybe five,maybe out othat five percent, its web traffic, but ninety five percent isNeplix utube, Amazon, spotify and the irony there is under all that most ofit's probably Amazons web services. So you know, then what starts to happen intheir mind, is hey, let's optimize the intrastructure to deliver content costeffectively to these environments and not to the others so to to Mik ananalogy. It's like M, you know in the bay area, say you know going to SanFrancisco in the morning Um. You know there's a lot of traffic right, so youknow one day the decide. Haylets build eight more lanes into the city, butover time someone decides to say hey. I want to run point to pointdocentralized web everywhere, which means the roads have to be four laneseverywhere else: Who's going to pay for that and Wen. So, naturally, the onlythe only result will be congestion. So that's Kindof, what's happening now andto litally, give you one a datapoint. Now the latest one is Zoom Izom, as asa company, they were considered critical in prostructure. Now they areright. So if you look at just their bills, in the last six months, they'reexpanding from, like littl Ly a handful, a Da Tosendist, almost every day tocenter that they can and they're just rapidly expanding right and now,naturally, the Internet imfastructure. All these intinet Servi ividors arerapidly trying to get a hold as zoom...

...saying, Hey, let's connect directly,because it's more efficient that way because our customers ecconnect you. Soit's it's usually less about technology, more about what's happening and moredriven by the business and the economics f things and I think Um,that's what I'm trying to bring to light is h. If you know some of thesides, you know tomorrow saying hey Um, you know the win the whole web threespace, they just flip on a switch and then you know magically everything'sgoing to be served by a IPFs or or some other delivery technology and say yeah,I'm going to serve websites from my home 'cause, I'm insentifized to do so.With with some H, you know some token. As an example, reality is it'll, beokay right for the first couple of years, but wonce you hat that criticalmass. You have this underlying inpro structure that just can't support itand more porently. The business models. Don't support it its well so and they're not in the valuchaing,so naturall they only respons is going to be to try to filter control it.That's my Vav at least so it comes to the nature of all of these things asthe fact ot that you just said, they're not in a value chain, and it tends tobe a sheteresentalize peer, O, fair connection on how these things ereserved and a want of him drastically expands the Um uploading requirements from theindividual user. Do you see? Do you see a future where, like the infrastructure, can adapt to thisbased on this service Tomand by the users? Or is it something that justlike, because overwhelmingly the majority of bandwith is coming from mservice consumption like netloks and stuff, like there'jus there'sit's,always going to be a blip on the radar? It I mean it's it's already it. Itcurrently is a blipping, the Radarno, and it always will be, there's alwaysthe the rest. What I call I the five percent of the traffic that they reallydon't care about, which is the benign stuff, but the moment that starts tocreep up and start to get in the radar where it's actually impacting theperformance and quality of the network. Um, that's when they start to care andthere's there's a couple of things. They can do to react to it. To yourpoint: It's never a question of technology. What I mean is a you know you and I, for example, or allany of US rather depending on where we are physically. We either have accessto a physical plant, whether that's cable or fibre, they're designedliterally Um to optimize for download than it is the upload, but there's noreason why they couldn't configure the wavelanks or the spectrum on thewireless side for like four Gr or big to optemize for upstream or make itsymmetrical. I mean most of like firedeployments today. Are One GIGsymmetrical, but the reality an the joke? Is I always see people paying twothrundred dollars for one gat to the home. The reality is your next top fromthere is likely not giving you that capacity upstream, but I always findthat one hundred meg is usually the swee spot for the home, becausenaturally you can't consume one gg from somewhere, far away, usually whenpeople do speed tests, H, service, iviurst kind of optemize, for that theyrun speed, test closest to your hole. So it looks like you're getting a GIGand in reality you are, but the reality is most. Your content is somewherefurther away. But back to your question, is it's not a technology problem? It'sa business problem right and the question then, is H. There's two waysabout it: right they can start making consumption base, saying hey, Um, fineI'll, let you start sending a lot more trafpic upstream, but we got to go to ausage base model. Therefore you know, instead of t all you can eat modelwhere you're paying fifty sixty months and maybe twenty dollars extra month hto get unlimited because they do have a UBI model today they they kind of cap.You naturally, this increase that cap right so now people, so you and I forexample, we decide to run some some type of distributed technology in our home, whether it'sfor store, try, PFS and I know, there's tons of others out there Um and say ourupstrin traffic starts to go up in an order of magnitude like five six timeswe you and I might have to start paying two three four hundred dollars a month.If that's how the servicifide ers react in order to fund the inprastructurebuilds, so the question ow is: Is it wh t it wats the incentive for me to paythat four hundred a month and by making that kind of money y running thisinprastructure or enabling these services in my home? That's one wayabout it. Another way about it? is they they introduce themselves into thevalue chain, see. One argument I tend to make is they've been so commoditizedas as a as a an operator, one way that y reintroduced themselves into thevalue chain, because everything is over...

...the top now, whether it's a neflixthat's running and producing content, whether it's trilio providing verysimilar functionality to a telco, whether it's aws, GCP or Amazone, orSarry, Google, all these guys are illigically reaping the benefits of theinfrastructure. These these companies have filled out over the last twentyyears. Um, you know it's. You want to figure out a way if you want to competewith them. Therefore, Aligne yourself in the incentive a so there's two waysof going out it honesty. I don't see them as forward thinking like that.Therefore, the natural progression, I see, hapening they'll, just end upcharging you and I more. Therefore, the question that becomes is that cost thatwe pay extra per month. Are we reaping the benefits of those costs withwhatever incentive we've been given to run those services in our home? That'sKINDOF how I see a plan out, at least in in the short tom term, tputs a new spin on kind of thing. If Ilook at like Falicorn fors, for example, right the requirements amd resourcesrequired to run O validator for valocorner are pretty extensive,meating that you need some type of organization or a front capital andaccess to pretty specialized hardware in order to just participate in thevalonation process, leaning towards people like larger corporations,actually doing it, maybe it something that I ask pecof want to be involved inin terms of a service they provide in the process of reduce themselves backin the VI. Chinks, I'm not going to be able to do that. Do you feel like that's? That's something people havecaught onto and they're trying to get in there or is it just kind of a consequence of decisions they made? INASA Sper N, it's the consequences, it'll be an olship moment and honestlyin in business. That's usually what it comes to it's like someone until it's,unless it's painful, usually when there's pain d. therefore, there's aproblem and if there's a problem, there's value to be inserted in orderto address it. Therefore, to make money, that's how at least I mean not to be sobasic about. It is there's always the aspiration or you want to focus on thebig vision, but ultimately, the day to day in terms of execution, people tendto focus on. What's the pain points for today I mean I've had these discussions,I've tried to bring it up. INTHO space, Um, hey, give you a perfect exampleright in two thousand and ten, two thousand and nine wireless networkswere literally tipping over right. They were lierally falling over there on thefire and everyone whether people remember it or not. It was very simplthe like what happened. Why was why was it doing that very simple, any wirelessnetwork today or any wireless device that you have at home any every sessionthat you create like? If you go to? U, you know the big UONE pocos com, it'll,likely, probably crate twenty thirty TCP sessions, weather stalld the littleatrackers in the background for analytics to download the website. Itdoesn't matter those twenty thirty sessions on a Mobil device wasresulting in twenty thirty sessions being tracked in the mobile network andthere's reasons for that right, it's at home. It's you, don't have a statefuldevice at home. I mean you do to some degree, but not to the level of thebolder networks. The reason the Mobil networks had these firewalls thatcaptured and manted state was very simple because you once in a while, yousee hey. If you have t mobile, you get niplics for free if it's four eighty pOu'r below right, it's part of your plan. Well, how do you determine thatsimple right? They they KINDOF, do some clever tricks where they insert certainheaters in the HTDP and at first avice, the firewall in the mobile network sayshey. This guy is coming in Netflix four, Eighty P: Let me dip into thisafthentication slash authorization, server, Yep, pes part this plan. Allright, send him this way right. So the point is to Kindof make the to go backto the original point is one tdevice was now generating hundreds ofconnections ecause. You literally had your Browser Sofari on the firsteiffold which in the past, it was like this. This really Shiby Mobil devicecreating ten or five sessions. Now you had to single device creating hundredsof not thousands of sessions. So now you hadd tens, a thousand e Moble, ifthe vice little God things the ne the networks for Meltic, so they had to go,spend hundreds of millions of dollars to build out just as one layer offirewall slash proxy, an Te structure that just give you a very simpleexample of just w th the re causing a factor. The cause was awesome: smartphone, wh, nd, everyone loved it. The effect was holy. Ship Network wasarchitected. This way, let's react to...

...it and the reason there was money, forit is natural right. 'CAUSE, everyone was signing up for andlimited dataplans, all the Bobil carars were making tons of money and apple was making tonsof money right. I don't see that happening like what what's going to bethe trigger point for you and I, for example, to run u a filcoin note o home.They say we even the side. F 'cause, I just I lira. I load up in a theoriumnote on my laptop just goofing around or even a pilecoin node. It LiberallyCrates fifteen to twenty thousand connections. I mean that's a mindboggling, but that's the expectation right. So I've had conversations insome of the Protocol Lab slack channels. I'm saying you guys realize Thi Shitwon't scale. I mean I'm very honest that very o Onoim Rit, like yeah thesolution is we cap it two a thousand sessions and like fine, but the bostyou'll ever get from a thousand sessions is may be on a laptop you'll,never be able to pull that off on a phone like. What's your vision and theresponse is natural and and its expected, I'm not expecting too much.is they just say hey when we get to that problem? We'll look at it right,but my point is: Don't think of it's just as a technical issue. It's alsoit's more about an incentive. There's a lot of game theter involved here andthat ant you to figure that out. Then you can figure out how you really buildout the infrastruction away that and everyone can kind of benefit from it.That's Kindo how I see it at least, so it sounds pretty clear that you're saying like industry followsusage, betters and responds to demand. Essentially, butwhat would have to happen like whatwould say the demand was there for um usage veterans that are completely.You know, far more to centralized much more PG P, not necessarily conformingto the well well traveled roads that that are there already wa'll kind of lift. Would that be inlike Wa twould even have to happen for that demand to be satisfied or Dr, mymy h, so the the immediatething that wouldhave to happen. L, it was back in March Um, my cable, my cable modem keptresetting once a day. I finally Lo you know during the pen daeg ever o. Now noone wanted to come out. I I was with Congass. Finally, I liftle just on look.I looked at OSHMTS. I found it in my block and I looked at my port and Isaid you have erosion here. There was some water leaked into the box. You gotto come and replace it. They ended up doing that right. But that's that's!That's that's the point. The point I want to make is that thevice that Ipointed them I pointed out to them- has a certain fixed capacity. Let's justcall it x, right and x can be a slice in a way that says. Eighty percent isallocated for channels downstream. Twenty percentis allocated for atraffic upstream right and now wh. What need to happen is there has to b aneconomic incentive for them to say hey? Do we switch that to fifty fifty rightor there or do we need to put a bigger box there and these boxes whech? Theycall CMTs's, cable, Modem termination systems for cable plants at least d SLand five are different things and for radio. It's also different, but t toput these kind of new boks out there you're talking about hundreds of housesin some case and millions of dollars, 'cause guys have to come out rip outboxes, T it's it's disruptive to the customers right. They have to plan amaintenance. Windos, so these things don't happen overnight, so either thenatural, the immediate solution. I guess Um John Treq question is they canstart tweaking the parameters for the downstream opstreem, but there'sthere's there's a flipsite to that hey. If we give more upstream for Marku tohost some random website for D, You know web three blog or for what isperceved as uncontrollable content. You know, let just face it. You know,because o desentralize there's going to be content there. You have less of asingle throa to choke like you do, for example, therefore Um that that'll beone view. The other view is like if we tweek the fifty percent down. Neflixusers in this cable plan, therefore, would experience maybe not forkscreaming. Maybe one K, maybe seven twenty p. So there that's the downsideright, because you only you always have just a fixed capacity right and you canplay with the fixed capacity as an immediate solution. You can grow thefixed capacity, which is a capital in tensive process, and the question thenbecomes is who pays for that right. So...

...that goes back to D. Does corand? Idecide to pay two three hundred a month just 'cause. I want to host some randomblog off my computer and maybe make five ten bucks a month of Bilcoin orwhat is it right? So h? I don't know. If answer the questiondirectly, John or indirectly, I guess the Ques t from a technology standpoint,it's very clear what what those answers can be. It's always about the the thetiming to do like. If I you can always tweek the existing parameters in thesystem. That's there today or you can uprade the capacity of the system whichtakes a longer longer cycle to do. Ou just have to plan that get people outthere Ri wires out, replace boxes. That makes sense andby the way. That's that's just thelast mile, like from lierally from me and my home, to like a box in myneighborhood, the they got fireplants that go to what they call points ofpresents. Then you got the data senters. Then you get the massive backbows thatconnect the global inprestructure. So, though, those things all have to beconsidered because also those see what what I I presented at the web threesummit think a couple of years ago feels, like a couple of years ago, wasth. The last mile, my home, to this cae to this pirst device has been highlyoptimized for a asymmetry, but what's been happening, as I mention earlier inthe call is the margin compression that's happening in the the theInternet delivery business is been so strong because that the man just keepsgrowing right. Is that they've been optimizing. This asymmetry further intothe network and that's that's that's a much harder thing to unwind, becausethe cost they'll get into the tens of millions. Hundreds of millions right sothey've been optimizing kind of the second third tier of the networkstowards the core to be more centralized within the box right and they'reoptimizing for that right down to the memory right, 'cause not to get twoTECHNICOL BOT. You know when I try to go EFLIX DCOM that tends that result inan I t address, and then the router has to make a decision. What interface? Isend that out. Well, then, there's different kinds of memory where youhave l level one two, three four leve e one memory is Tyou, can lok look upwithin microseconds and then send the packet out, because the longer takesyou to look up a pack or an interface the longer it takes to get the pack ofbear and it impacts the user experience so they're, even optimizing right downto that level. Like do I put all of neflix routes on my layr one memory,and then I put maybe Joe Blows prefixes, which happens to now B PTP on level.Three memory you know and what's been happening is they'v been putting moreand more of the core Internet services that content providers, where the mostof the man is on this level, one stuff and throwing the rest out there just tooptimize the cost of the box. And that's where I'm saying it's Ha, it'sgoing to be very hard for the Internet service providers to unwind whatthey're doing, because they're optimizing the physical infrastructureright down to the boxes right down to the memory components for the current usage patterns of today I was going to say on top of that kindof what you've mentioned earlier, like Tha. No one knows no one talks about this specific scenario in terms of howthe Internet is reoptim. The Internet infrastructure is reoptomating itselfto serve all the suff, that's being consumed and and how that L Ke affectsnetwor traffic, at least like how we consume Noor Traffic, and I would venture a guest an I don't think eitherof you would argue with me or anyone else, who's listening. This wour arguewith me that the incentive models that people are coming up with with respectto Peter Pur Services and blockchain have not thought about this and are notaligned with this kind of eorganization right they're doing it from a thisthey're. Completely ignorant ofthis is there any type of restructuring of incentive models thatpeople should be aware of when thinking about how to think about the serviceproviders of their particular network and how he offers, like you said right,like you, can run N ps. No, that opens up thousands of of connections forpotentially, maybe five dercent do five Tuen dollars a month in in providingservices right, but l, that's because they're, not thinking about thesethings and the potential cost to you...

...based on what happens if they come weldti successful. How do you rearchitect to theincentives to be alined with this type of thing such that, like in the eventthat that happens, the people who are providing the services are going to getpaid commissert with the costs of running the services? It's a it's a hard question cor I meanI I've noodled with it in my head. Um definitely requires a lot of money anda lot of brainpower in my mind. What I, what I see closely tied is the bandwith, is not an infinite resource right and, if anything banned with as aproperty. As being kind of morsed organically over time H to be optimizedfor the consumption patterns of the day, what I, what ultimately that means? Isthere there's a phys physicality, there's a physical aspect in the re inthe real world, where you have a finite resource? That's tied now to thisaspiration for dramatically changing the content, delivery, behavior andthere's a huge disconnect there right and not just a DISCONNEC in theincentive models, but the actual operators or the the the organizationsand companies who litially delay out this infrastructure. Right and I D- Idon't have quick answer for you and it's it's just not the last mile, likeyou know, and when I just what everything I've talked to you right nowabout is litially the physical cable plans. A spectrum is another, that'sjust another level right. It's like a you know the you know. Th there thereare companies, individuals who wer who licensed spectrum from the FCC FortyFif noers ago, wore billionaires non. They own spate, that's all they ownright n. They license a spectrum to Atnmberisin at the tens and fifteens ofbillions for our ability to download more things on these devices rig and asthese things are to be consumed, the more um spectrum then becomes even ahigher cost commodity. So all does all these dynamics on the operators and thecaprolcosts needed for this resource and there's a complete disconnuct onhow these protocols are being built on the top can can the Tue be built in away where th y hey kind of a line? Yes, but that's like a that's some thatrequires thinking now and execution that probably will take a five ten yearjourney. In my view, I'm almost of the belief that you almost have to build ayou have to start building it a whole new intrastructure inparallel to it,and it's been done like very similar to space sax. But then you know you got aguy like elong saying, Hey. Let me just launch all my satellites into spacefuck, everyone Ilase, I'm cutting them all out, because I can't deal with thatshit any more and putting four thousand plus satellites. I think F C. Justapproved eight thousand and he's starting from scratch, but I I meanother than I was going to say he doesn't think about gript Ol, he well,he does or whether it's the real himn or not it's questionable, but once in a while, but then the realityis, will space ex kind of think of how they allie these incentive models. Idon't think so and satellites is not the right solution for upstream they're,highly optomized for downstream, as well at the radio level. So very longway of saying I don't have an answer few you I've thought about it, butunforture the day job gets in theway and I just haven't really sat down andI'm probably not the right guy to do it. But one thing I will throw out there. Ithink it's a perfect time for the people who who, who figure outthe right andcentiv model and ultimately requires this new Bild ofimfrastructure physically, but also at the protocol level. H, you know a andyou see it all the time an and naturally I think, what's going tohappen is you will see a disconnect between China and the rest of the worldor whoever else trying to gets into their Internet th y they've, alreadykind of have it at least they're public about it, the Great Wall. You knowwe're less public about it eer, but you know the NS. A does, doesn't look atthings right. He itit's been well documented by certain individuals, butbottom line is the Internet's still free, but if Y, if you have anughunderstanding of the protocol level, it's actually pretty pretty obvious O,like a China, everyday, randomly says: Hey for the next eight hours. I'm UBStherefore rout all traffic to me. Russia does the same thing too. So whatI'm trying to say is the security at the protocol level for the Internet.IPSTRUCTURE is very weak. It was almost like. Twenty years ago we justrusted YourasLae Hay Parry, you tell me you onl...

...these ten thousand customers. Therefore,I believe you I will enforce that manually on THY router and hopefully noone else tries to screw with that type of understanding.There are like public databases that track this, but it's all managed bylike a single entity and it's easy to manipulate that data, and that's why,like countries like again, Russia and China, they litially intercept all thistraffic h to you know to t to snip it right. So what I'm saying istheretherethere's possibilities where I see some blatin technology solveme thesecurity aspect there, if you kindof lump that alltogether with this really really kind of new imprastructure,build a truly new Internet inparallel that I think, has more potential,because you can make the case that it's more secure its design in a certain waythat better alines with you know all the non technical reasons of why peoplewant web three given old, a dew political climate that s of late Um,you just need a whole lot of capital, really smart people who are who arewilling to do that right and that'll be a five ten year project, at least justlike the Internet was right. It really started in the in the mid nineties,late early nineties. That's interesting! I'm trying to thinklike on top of that. What's not going to work as Li E. is itit's a lot of the Times you hear the marketing pictures of a lot ofprojects statuses partially involved with this? Is that,like everyone's equal, all noses are equal running out on your phone. Do thes things, and when you take alook at the networking stack FPDP lippy to pe. That's, certainly not the caseof what Therec, if you look at the resources available, nchese machinesand what they're capable in terms of like processing memory, computing,banwith, nconectivity, even even the conversation around running, an h tovalidator, hasn't really been talked about, based on the rehorces requiredto do so like what's not going to work for these larger networks when they'retrying to run what would be considered critical infrastructure for these largevalue networks, I when you have, especially, as you know, the complexity of consensus, growslarger and finality becomes more important. You ded better d date,availability and things like that, and we build more and more and more onthese networks and the underlying protocols, her more osified. If theinfrastructure can't keep up with it, it's going to be an issue so likehaving the conversations of what's not going to work, especially in terms ofcritical infrastructure. That's supporting these things. I isprevauable like what's not going to work, what sucks? What's what's a waythat we're doing things now that clearly isn't going to work in the inthe case that we're successful and we run in these problems. FERE networkISP and I frestructure starts saying like we're going to have to dosomething about this. It's a naivete right. I mean it's, notUm. What I mean is it it's t, e's people, you know these projects ot. Theindustry is so focused on doing their projects right Um. I don't think I don't think they justhad the time to think it through right, um so m. give you in my mind at least the way I seethings happening. litually. Is it s it'll get to the o ship moments andthen people start to realize? Okay, what can we do, but it'll be a painfulsix, twelve, maybe a couple of years process. Another perfect example: Right:Um H, you know, use a search gools, probably in the twenty ten twentyeleven time frame. Ish Um Netlix would just experimenceing an explosion ofgrowth right Um. It comes down to cost right. So youknow, comcast was bitching all the comcast customers. Rather, like youanyone's Sen, scuin concast, O, say hey my Neplix sucxs right. I can't streamshit rand and then concasts would be like not my problem. It's netlicsproblem 'cause. They have to grow the capacity right and that flits saying no.It's not our problem, its comcasts problem, because they're trying tot'shard charge US forty thousand dollars for every ten gig part right and thenthere's this fingerpointing right and then concat is stangle. I'm notspending a half. You know another five, ten fifteen million, whatever thenumber will be to upgreade intrastructure when my end cost is notchanging. I'm still charging the sixty...

...bucks a month and netplex is not payingforit either. So there was lateally. There was. I think there was one point.It was like a twenty four hour period where Um they deep heered. It literallybroke a portion of the Internet where neklicxt said screw, you conqestedsscrew you and theire upstrin providers, which is level three, which is atransit provider. They deeppeared and it was broken until I think thegovernment stepped and said you, you guys better reconnect or r you're goingto get your ass, handit Toyo Right, but Ilie comes to that. It's going to be,like you know, Um, you know like a s, you know he, let's assumed definitybecomes the platform where there's all this growt happening right and Um in order to meet them, wash choice, a definity or fine, a etherium. Anyonewho has a successful the reason I picked afinity it was it popped into myhead. While you were talking is M, I think they've noticed this problemright, because h, two and a half three years ago they were hiring for a BP F,networking, engineering and it'SI's. Very subtle in thei're messaging, butthey set in order to boot, strap the definity network Weh've built out indatasenters ourselves, so in in some ways they'r already building out thisnew infrastructure, that's needed, that'll likely run. I mean it's goingto connect to the traditional web as we know today, but it's ultimately what Ithink is the ceating of building out this physical Ti prostruction neededfor the future Internet right. So that's, at least I I you know. I don'tknow anyone there. You know full disclosure. Just when I see themessaging and you know I see the random job posting ner recruit. As asking me,you KN W, I'm interested. I was like awesome project onfortunately. I juststarted a new company with a couple of guys: Tha can't bail on Hem, but I seethey have that thought process. So back back to my point, is you know, saythepiity is that choice or again stabus or someone who has all this traffic andthen you say hey? I need to increase my capacity to h to att, to I don't know, porizin comcast, becauseI have customers complaining there and then those serves survivor, Sin Great.You know they send their sneezy sales guy to you and says a this is awesomeright. Let me let me quote you couple of connections. Um that'll, be you know,probably two two and a half three hundred thousand dollars per year forfour Hunde GE connection right and you're likel. How do I pay for thatright? So then, you get inothat discussion and most people just give inright. Some people just put their foot down if they have the market power likeNeplix did in that example. But it'll come to that just cost. I mean Ithere'll, be t'll, be a situation where all this capital flows into growing theinprstructure. Finally, it gets. The capital gets o point where you'refinancial person, your C fold, be like this unsustainable man, we nee, we didpicger this out and then they start to figure out hey. We build ourowninpestructure and it'l'L. Naturally, progress into that. It's kind of how Iview it but short answeris. I I go ahead o what's an interesting sirtpattern here is, like I think, plays out in lots of other decentialisystemsis just not just. I is like not just the demand,but like the social aspect, so with everything you're talking about.There's, like you know, one person concast an call one person from Netflixand like Hash at the problem together, whereas with these the idealized, the centralezes network, there's just there's just no clear point of contact and andlarger organizations like they, they want somebody to go talk to so it seemsalmost like Um yeah they's. Just like thosestateholder challenges, yeah, I mean H, Seeyeah, so th I'll give you my opinion.At least it. I don't think you can ever get away, at least when it comes to thephysical world M, you can't get away from a single entity owning it thatjust the user experience right. You know I, if I'm having a cable plantissue, I need to call the phone and say fix my shit right. If my wireless one'sot working come picks. My Shit and I've, I see all these aspirational projectswhere they want to crate this full mesh point to point. I was uing another wordstuff other than the technology being questionable. I just don't see itworking in in a non technical sentry I mean there. I've seen some people insome conferences. I forget where guy was literally walking around you hadten axess points on him: E's, like I'm...

Amobile, I'm a mobile, radiotower andalsmtn s like we're going to go full point to point right. You know I'mgoing to get paid for hosting my point to point connections and ultimatelyproviding wifefi to anyone. WHOS NEARMEI'M, like well other than thehealth reasons for doing that, for you do what happens at you go like if yougo, what happens if you go away and what happens to the people who aredependent on you for acts to the Internet? It just it doesn't work thatway. Um. I think when you get H and that's right at the the at the end,what I calld the axiss layer John, but when you kind of go deeper into it, andthat's where again, why I brought up the definity is at the end of the day,definity when, as they build out their datasand airprostructure th you kN W,whoever the network guy is they're going to be like all right. I needbasic cinectivity to the Internet and you only got about five or six playersaround the world that do that right. It's either like cogen or a level threeor Tatia um tell probabl do all these names.Theslthese are cheer on providers and most people probably never heard of Hem.But these are the guys who spend ten fifteen billion dollars to s. You know,send a boat off across the Pacific or the Atlantic and they run fibrs alongthe ocean. flooright. Is that CAPACITI's needed right? You can't getaway from these people, providing you that stuff, so anyone who's anyone atthat second or third level is altee going to have to engage in somecommercial enengagement. With these these entities right, then there's theoptimization layer. What I just explained was five or six, what theycall transit providers H, naturally, you'll be like hey Um Cox, which is a regional provider, oryou have neflixs to Ark content providers. thothose companies, um they're, moreregional. Therefore, you want to connect to them directly and that thatconcept is typically referred to US peering in the industry and thatbecomes more complicated. But it really comes down to your point. John, mostlyInternet in prostructure, is built on business negotiation, businessrelationship, it's usually always less technical, it's more about all right!If I connect to you what's in it for me, otherwise I'm asking you for moneyright and Um. I I honestly do not see how we get away from that, at leastwhen you get deeper into the inpastructure, because it's it's such acomplex h needs not only to build the capital to building inprostructure, butthe OPERATI can an operator be created day, one who's, decentralized, yes, butthere's still going to have to be some some entity or someone that thesideswhat those business motors look like. I don't know if it's a smart contract orDow. I don't know what I'm saying is hugh those kind of things it's hard to me to map. In my mind,maybe I come from that world right and maybe it s you need a fresh review, butum in that portion. T at Tis control tooright, like you go to that person because they have the power to dosomething and a good portion of the idealism behind docentralized web is isgiving up that control and distribig distributing the power across the many and in that type of situation. Who Doyou go to when you need something changed, because there's not an singleperson who can change something wh? It doesn't happen fast and how that grows and to become the standard is not something that Ican necessarily rap my head around yeah, it's a you're right on the money.You need a single throw ot to choke right, especially when it comes to youknow, mom and pop being being able to act ASS, my internet, because now morethan ever we're more dependent on it on our day to day live. You know you can'tsay: Well we ask the Dow we have this governence we're going to send out. Youknow we're hoping someone responds in the next two three days: Ri ht it. Itdoesn't work that way. In my view, and then you got the regulatory complianceand eeds right like it or not, depending on what region you'reoperating in. If they come and Sere Ove you'r warrant, you have to comply right,you have to either you have to provide the data that they're looking for youknow they have a Warran thing so and so is accused of hosting certain type ofcontent. That's inappropriate provide all information on this individual,like you know, on whatever entity that in is or whatever country that entitiesoperating and has to conform to that as well. Otherwise, it'll be very hard forthe entity to even be existing in that in that kind of country right. So,there's a lot of governance at t at the...

...real world ancompliance that I think isnot h, not appreciate the same thing withEurope right Europe has was a gdpr forget the riht oe like yes, prettymuch and thin, but there's other things that say my data as a Eurokean citizen shouldnever ever be hosted on any computer outside the European Union, but hoveeven forced that right and then, if you don't your your organization or youryour, you know, your your legal entity gets fine tens of billions of dollarsright. It's like okay, Um there', definitely a lot of complexity to it. II haven't thought through all th all the issues of myself, its just Um. Youknow it's a it's a it'll be an interestinginteresting time in the next five years as Actualy, I suspect the web threemovement will pick up steam. There will be a lot of adoption and success, but Ithink y they'll hit this critical point where a lot of people have that Oshipmoment oright how d we figure these things out and it'll be messy Um. Butyou know, like anything worth doing: It's a process, TAT's a challenge, Umand Um. I think the outoutcome should be positive. Hopefully that's the bull. I agree with you. I just think theseconversations now or worthwhile and for kind of the understanding of like howthings are built and the motivation behind how they're being built out should be understood more within thisecosystence, so that we can position ourselves appropriately oreven start to like try and do something about it orunderstand that it's going to be a problem in the future versus just beingblind sited by it. When it actually happens right, yeah, it's a I've talkedto some DC, just in passing, not because you know I yo not I'. I'm activelooking to raise VC money from the crypto like cryptal oriented BCS. Theyhave zero clue about this right, even their notion when they say I want tobuild infrastructure they're still talking about like second third levelchange right, I'm like no, that's, not the inprastructure, I'm thinking aboutright. It's like a I'm thinking, a of other kind of ofprestructor. How do you view it, and then I talk to BCS, you know in SanHill, road Um, you know th they'll, invest they have like a one or twodessencs here and there in the cryptal pacebut. They come from a veryinfrastructure and enterprise oriented world o this huge disconnect inexpertise and understand. That' to me, that's the value of that BCS bring at atable. You know ICOS were fun but Um. I really especially now that I've OIEPROCESSD my now that I've kind of gone through the process myself. I see thetremendous value they bring. It's mainly the experience right and don'tget me Y wrong with it. There's some who are just nasty out there, but youfind the right B C as a partner. They literally just you know they can coachyou they on board you they they kind of help. You avoid the pit palls, the goodones, are semi hands off and hands on so there's tremendous value there, butthere's still this in the BC space Tou see this disconnect between theunderstanding. The only one I can see them. Trying to make an effort is asixteen Z, but even then it's still very high level. I never see anyprojects f focused on what I would consider the infrostructure discussions.Um and UM. It's a it'll be an interesting space, but naturally likeanything. If there's a big problem to be solved, capital pent kind of flowthere, so yeah to g back. To original point I was trying to make, is I've hadconversations. I try to bring it up. Sometimes I just get brushed off Um asme, trying to be h what it being negative, an Trin, rcotory, Ono yeah,I'm just say: Heguys. I L Love Your Shit. You know I love the energy, I Iwas in it when I was building the Internet back in the dial of base rate.I I love it. Otherwise, I'll go back to my day. Job Right, Il know I'll make mymoney hang out there and that's good, but I I love the the reason why itexists right. I can I love the energy. You know it's just. I want to make suresome of you are. You know enlightened to what this is, and some people pickedthat up there's a couple of guys: Hae'ave Been Talging to at leastprotocol labs. When I presented that Web three we've kept um we've kept kindof on and off conversations, but nothing formal right. Is it just one ofthose hey? What's the latest going on there, I've talked to a B C's here andthere as well in the cryptal space but,...

...like I said very informal and of courseyou guys in the slack channel Um but Um, maybe maybe in a couple of years, I'lljust kind of double down on it and maybe jump in both feet. Myself figurefigure I'll, try something there too do you have some some specific in vicefor like what these never developers should be doing differently now to to be more future prover to anticipatethese walls, or should they just like try to run these walls quicker and incentivize users to get angry and Um and Coler s PS, Um Yeah? I I don't think it's from atechnology standpoint. I I as if I'm a network, developer Um. I don't you know.Typically, these things are out of my perview. They, it becomes a challenge.You know as a developer, at least these things become a challenge when I facethem right as an architect right, you can kindof envision them, but at leastmy thinking right now is because of this bridge did the physicality neededof just building this inprastructure. I don't see how you get around the theneed to have some type of business development person, someone who worksot a at a business level to understand what it takes to put these n. You knowthese contracts, together with all these different enities. You KN W toequipment of renting out o home right after rent out space in the data centerput out this infrastructure. What's my power space cooling? How do I connectit? These things typically developers, never think of right. You know I jokewith the most most people todayis once I was. I don't know what I was talkingto, but they were saying they were giving a new set of hires at Amazon, one ofthe tours of of their data senters, which typically highly secretive andone of the developer said. Oh look at that router right h. You know this. Youtold me this port is a ten GIG, ten giga its and this one's a hundergigibit. Why is this one w then wire both? Why are they bothphysically the same size? Right? It's like there's this complete disconnectof th. You know the especially the of people, understanding how the stuffworks. They don't even know what I P address is mostmost People's point toan in point and that's the Internet to that right. So Um Education is probablyone right, but I don't know: What's going to sentivize th developer, toeducate themselves like e me, Tryn undestand, the plunding or ourelectricity works nowadays I mean I do now that I bought a home, but mostpeople win't, do it just for the fun of it right. I bought it because there wasa need. So to your point, it's I think. UNTHIUG they get to that point wherethey're forced to understand how this stuff works. Um, you know, that's theincentive right is: Oh, should I hit a Woll, maybe there's another economicisenthat, I'm not aware of. I don't know Butoa these companies. You know Iknew what my biggervision was and what would it take to get there some goodplanning at the leadership level. Then definitely they would understand hey.We need to really figure this out and get the right people on it now and thatwould include how do I build up, maybe supporting in Trostructure? How do I build out? You know business relationship that help addressthat overtime right. I think it's more of that and lesse developer developerswill clearly come into the picture, but the thinking right now should be moreround that, in my view, Um, but again I that's just that's my point of view.There could be others, I just don't see it. I just you know, even if I did anICEO today right and raise ten billion dollars, ga I want to build a newdecentralized web right Um. I couldn't even do it overnight right. I'd have tohire all the right people. I'd have to figure out what data sent does T'm putmy equipment in you know it's going to be another three to four year projectjust to execute on Rd. I would argue that a portion of that requirement interms of what people should be doing h is understanding the consumption that their particular project has on thedifferent players of the network and how that scales of her time in the inthe event of in the event of success like what does banwild do and when ournetwork grows exponentially at wh o, you can block that as a function, ifyou've MAPP exactly how your protocol works in Somewar, ship reform and thenwhere's, the burden being put, is it...

...being put on note operators? Is there a hiearchy ofnone operators how his that change overtime, depending on what they'redoing with the with I the network? What about the consumption of these people?How many you know? How does that work? What are they what's required of them?As the network grows overtime? How? How does the money get dispersed across allthese different players, and is that going to be enough to for them toconsume the services that they nere may not find valuable like if you're notasking those questions as a project t an you haven't seiuly thought aboutscale or even how your project actually operates? Nd, I think that's that's atleast a minimal requirement to then start to even fathom wit' way down theline when you start to run into these barriers of like Oh ship. I SPS arethrotteling us because we're we're more than a plip on the Redar or, like that's a great viewpoint right I meanin my mind I kindof mapped out to the architecturole, and maybe the architectis just a never developer Um. These individuals need to kind of think aboutthat for their project at a higher higher level right beyond just thetwelve to eighteen month view of what can my projects Lash Protogol? Do youknow the assumption there is if I'm successful, what's going to be myroadblocks right and to your point, modeling band with, and whatimplications of that consumption has on the world around to band with should beat the top of everyone's mind and again, I'm th that little fly in the wall thatjust randomly brings it up once in a while, but you know you K W. I do my best. I tried I'mplanned to put like a blog, a couple of blogs together just kind of educatingpeople in my spare time, nfortunte, which becom less these days. But it'swhat I do when I can, but I agree with you Coria one hundred percent Um. Well, that's about all! I got U. I couldprobably talk about this for ever. I find the stuff fascinating s. Why Ibrought you on. I he first place, but John you got any other questions or bign ou, big blocker or small water. That's a pretty good question, but theyPrett y good question of the scenario. What's what's the right answer? Oh, behonest: Yeah Um Y H, I'm just a holder Um. I Ihaven't really kept. I in the P, I'm a space point of view. I I'm on and offso Um. I will make a yeah. I don't have an answer for you, I just I I Iincreased my holdings gradually or you know every month here and there when Ican um and I have some other other money in some some funds- that kind ofindex on that's on the crypto stuff, but other than that Um. You tells whereYoure Mad Rea T. was it a quick answer fin o? I don'tknow what the right one is ithe longer or is a Er Answeran? What Tofo YeahAraryou familiar with th this like big Blox, smallbock, Debat, that its likequieted down, but it was. I had te Nolso. You know like a interesting Thenso like a big coin.Blalk can hold um one magabite. So every you know every ten minutes youget about a megabite of transaction data. They oh Okaok and sometime ago there was. There wasthis debate about whether that ceiling should be lifted. Um and in order toyou know enable some some kind of quick and Jirty scaling of Tneer acity Um, and it sounds like a simple wind, butyou get into all these questions bout to centralization and and security cost,and you know Canbark, resourcees and intan on to lake a O, sugoar o bloccross the Glob in a sort enough time for them to not have an advantage over like the rest of the network terms ofbinding. The next block things like that. This I feel like heas, been around forat least when I was actively engaged like two. Two years ago, though we notcoming up ten origt, okay, so...

...short laer than r current current size, then knowing what to ea easily be done withthe network. I can definitely appreciate the concerns securityconcerns, Fon, the big books Um I mean Wa, wasn't that this is like acouple of years ago, I'm trn, I mean Li lighting network built on top of it.I'm trying to remember. was there a transition period? There was what wasit called SOMTHINGYES Segui right? Wasn't that kind of the whole load andthat oactively put it to a little bit over two vegabites effectively due tothe the secre dated witness sweet engineering names and then some other optimizations and furtherother oppamizations is maybe their way to make blocks een more efficient, soand so forth, but effectively like a bit coin. Proper block is around twomegabites h with e Tatch, and I guess I ha that reasonable thing that kind oflike agree like yeah there's more capacity and we're not activelyburdening the the Valit NTER network too much terms of like Il go an Banit justconsume like that Ju does an Nowor Guy. I know how easy it is to Anipulattenewwork FERF example was at least three o four years ago: Ether Wallet, Um,someone hijacked the prefict. Someone got access to a routor that wasunsecured, started, announcing, saying hey, I own rout, Fifty three in U seastso all of amazones o tin s started going through this router, which theyhappend to ten direct some of the traffic to a server which they trickedthe dnns serves oft o fifty three. For that specific R prepix, which happensto be the one that is it mightether wallet or eatther Wallet or whatever,whatever it was to three years ago, long story short. They were theyhijacket the NSROM Hil using the network and they rederected eve one totheir website. They looked just like it and they I think they stole a a coupleof millions dollars either before someone realized. So not that hard thathe do these kind of things so m. You know, and this that e went back tomy orther point- is: If you can figure out a way to rebuild thisinfrastructure, which would securely that security, that's inherint to theprotocals, where a simple hijack like that is not possible. That would, Ithink, be the sweet spot from a from a technical point of view to incentivizeexisting operators to even look at this technology. ANYWAYHS that entirelydifferent episode, which I have quite a few things, is as well somarkappreciate o coming on forwrd to hear you more an this n in the tick iepot gass black and picur exercisos Yeh, likewise Thankscoran Jon. This isfascinating. Thank you.

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