Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 94 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #94- Marco Rodrigues Web 3.0

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Marco from The Slack (You Should Join)talks with John and Corey about the fundamental underline infrastructures of the internet and how Web 3.0 should look like in the future now.

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Hey, everybody, got an awesome episode for you today, but first gonna do a word from our sponsors as well as give you a little more administrative stuff going on in the back end of hashing it out and things are involved in that you can you can become a part of. So first off, like to thank you, thank our sponsors, avalanche. Avalanche labs, the highly scalable open source platform for launching to centralized financial applications, recently raised about forty two million dollars through a public sale and now gearing up for its next milestone next week, the launch of its main net on September twenty one. That's right, they're launching their main net September twenty one. So get prepared also to strap three ecosystem. Avalanche opened up a bunch of new grants for developers who want to build high performance defy that's decentralized financed applications and infrastructure. They have open calls for projects like a decentralized exchange learning daps, step cooins, with more at it every week. So they also accept applications for other decentralized projects to join the avalanche ECO system. So go bill and avalanche build it. Out Limits and you go learn more at Avel labs dot org. That's a VA labs dot org. As for what we're doing it hashing it out. There's two things I want to talk about. First is hashing out is a part of the Pan Vala League. If you don't know what Pan Vala is, look back a few episodes and we did an episode sowed with Neuron about what Painavala is held works, so on and so forth. It's really awesome project that we're happy to be a part of. So this round Pan Vala is donating about, I think current pan prices, about a hundred and Seventyzeros to the etherium community. How does it donate those things? Where does it figure out how to donate them? Well, the Panavala League has geitcoin grants and hashing it out as part of the Panavala League. So we have a geitcoin grant that basically is a multi sick and if you donate to that geitcoin grant with Pan it will get matched not only by the clr matching of typical getcoin grants but also additionally by the hundred, seventy thous that Pan Vala is giving out and then we're going to use that money that's raised through that grant, with the advice and decisions hold from the etherium security community, to fund security and infrastructure projects. I we believe that hashing it out, that security infrastructure is a very underfunded but incredibly vitally important part of the ecosystem that needs more funds. So we're going to try and do that and you can help by donating pan or whatever to the good coin grant, the getcoin grant. That's going to be in the description of this episode. So get your pan donated to us. Will Fund a good place for it to help SUC MELP the security and infrastructure of the theorem ecosystem. And other big news that I don't think I've mentioned on the podcast yet is hashing it out is leaving the Bitcoin podcast network, because the Bitcoin podcast network is no longer a network, it's just a Bitcoin podcast. So over the next maybe ten or so episodes we're going to be continuing on this this feed that you're subscribed to now, but in the process there's going to be a new feed that's only going to be hashing it out. You'll need to resubscribe to because at the end you're not going to be able to get it on the feed you're on now the Bitcoin podcast. So we're gonna have their own thing. We're can use new branding, try and add of some more resources and so on and so forth to the show so that you can be a little more stable. I don't know, we'll see, but we're going to have own feed. Check out, listen up for it, check the twitter see whenever we are published that, but at least you get to just listen to us and no one else. It's going to be great. Bitcoin podcast is going where. I'm still doing that. It's just two different feeds. Now and onto the show. Now enter acast work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast...

...where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. I welcome back Hash it out. I'm your host, Dr Corey Petty, with Mr John Mardlin. Aw You doing, John, and good today. Get today names. Today's episode, where it's talk with Marco Rodriguez. Marco's been in the Bitcoin podcast lack for quite a while as a contributor. I've actually had the pleasure of sitting down with them during was it devcom three? Yeah, everyone was in Mexico, somebody, several one was in can cure three, either way, in and out. Marcos said interesting things that I've always found fascinated around the implications of Internet infrastructure to the web, three movements on so forth. So you have a lot of knowledge and work experience in basically how the Internet is built, in the infrastructure that pipes did network packets across from my computer to your computer or wherever else, and kind of how that's built and what motivates how it's built. So I want to kind of bring you on to have a conversation about that concept, one to just bring it up because it's not really talked about very much, but to like to discuss some of these like the way the Internet's moving in terms of infrastructure and why it's moving that way, and then how the P to peer decentralization with three movement, whatever you want to call it, how that impacts that. That like architectural movement. The make sense? Sure, all right, so I can get guides, do the intral thing, tell you where you come from, which deal. So on the fourth yeah, sure's a bit of background. I mean for as long as I can remember, probably since I was a preteen, like probably ten or eleven, I would just fascinate with connectivity. So remember spending a lot of summers just putting together my own computers, working with modems and just figure out how Internet to work. And then started getting interested in fascinated with online gaming and the best way to make sure your clan and quake the other team was understand how the network works so you can details them and make sure they were lagged out and you can frag them. So it kind of took it from there, you know. And then, I would say the last twenty five years I've been pretty much involved in some form or another in internet infrastructure. So it started with me working with a small ICED P midsize iyesp in Canada, we build out their national infrastructure and then I immigrated to the United States back in two thousand and seven or eight. Interesting timing, neither to say. But I work for a large vendor that's sold networking equipment to the largest serves survivors in the world, the network operators, or the mobile network operators, as you guys probably know them as well. And so I've been, you know, just been pretty much in tune with not only the technology but the whole process of operating and building these large network infrastructures. So I'd say lately, the lately, that kind of the web three movement and why I actually was kind of interested just in the whole crypto in general and why I've been kind of just it's kind of been a hobby of mine, mainly because the energy energy reminds me a lot of what the Internet energy was in the early s, the aspirations of what it was trying to build, this whole decentralize the you know, movement towards free flowing information. But lately, you know, as things tend to happen over time, as you get all these economic incentives that line up and just the reality sets in, a lot of centralization has been happening on how these infrastructure actually run. There for you know, the whole web three movement is kind of like this reawakening...

...of how you decentralize or kind of peel back the onion and try to getting back to the roots of what I call the Internet. So that's kind of a bit, a bit of a brief intro where I came from. My current role. I'm just I work for a decentralized or sorry, distributed cloud platform company that's a bit analogous to what we do, but it's it's part of my day job. I won't bring it up here, but I'm the VP of products and solutions there and that kind of consumes the most of my time. But I tend to kind of pop in and out out of the webry space relative to Internet infrastructure. I've given talks as well where I can, when their local meetups. Recently I've seen some twitter threads. A lot of the VC's in the crypto space are a kind of, you know, poking their heads out and looking at how Internet infrastructure is being built as well. So I found that it was kind of timely to have this conversation as well. Hence the enthusiasm to hop on a chat about it. Nice, John, you lookie. You perked up a little bit when you said Canadian. I Spa. I yea made it. He pardon, it was a Prim Primus. Canada was the highest with the PRIMUS. Canada was the Internet serves fighter. So, man, I just naturalized into US citizen earlier this year. Heard of the graduations, yes, but I still have planned B and C. respective that, I still have my Canadian and Portuguese passports. Fire reports doesn't know that. Yes, so be les, I got the trife got the TRIFECTA. There yet, as he Laida, that's there. Run on. So yeah, I guess I don't know every perspective. Like maybe it's worthwhile to discuss the trends in internet infrastructure and what's motivating them, like how I what are they? What's their current, I guess, capacity, and how are they trying to innovate in order to handle that capacity? So reality, is a very little innovation happening the space. Naturally, with any commoditized business it's kind of an Iry. Right. Usually, when a service or a product, in this case the Internet in this case, becomes so successful, it gets commoditized naturally out of its own success, because everyone just figures out waste optimize it. So the whole industry, at least when I was very in it about a year and a half, two years ago, was facing a lot of margin compression. Therefore, there was very little innovation happening in the space, more about optimizing for costs, right. And the downside there is the less innovation happening on how to evolve the technology in a way that maybe goes beyond just the day to day stuff like just increasing my speeds and feeds, making sure I can deliver, you know, g infrastructure more efficiently to the homes, versus something like spacex is doing. Right, hey, let's launch four thousand satellites in the air and try to reinvent how Internet kinnectivities is kind of happening. So you won't see a lot of traditional innovation happening in the incumbents, but what you will see as a lot of new players coming into the space, like spacex with you know, it takes a tremendous amount of capital to kind of build this infrastructure, but the kind of take it a step back in altimate, it comes down to just the cost, right, because what people will realize is, you know, you can these are all in balance sheets anyways. Publicly. You can see companies like, you know, like an atnt or verizon, the amount of money they spend on just operating the infrastructure, let alone the capital needed to build the infrastructure. We're talking into twenty, thirty of billions of dollars a year right. So naturally they're going to want to optimize that cost over time and they have been, because it's all about increasing margin there for shareholder value. That's kind of the way the you know, publicly listed companies work. And if you kind of go back to the S, one perfect example I'd like to always bring up was bit torn. You know, if the kids are old enough to remember a bit torn. Bottom line is lit PTP from projects like IPFs heavily rely on the torn concept, point to point essentially. And what was happening back then in the S is you didn't have this little...

...huge amount of bandwidth like you have now in the homes. And even now, arguably a lot of your traffic at home is asymmetric, meaning traffic is optimized for downstream. Then it is uptream, like you usually get the hundred gig down or, sorry, hund to makes down or one get down and very limited upstream. And that's why that's by design, because the the traffic patterns of individuals are that it's all about consumption less about producing content. But if you go back to the s and know it's whole bit torn. Thing came out. Then as a protocol, people started latching APPs on top of it. Then you had things like napster, and napster kind of exploded right, and then from there you started seeing all this point to point traffic flowing on these Internet providers and networks and they're like in the beginning was pretty benign. They're like, Hey, all right, fine. About what started happening is it started growing. People using it to share music videos, legal or legal, and illegal doesn't matter at the end of the day. What was happening was at the last mile from your home or your cell towers, when those devices they connect to, we're getting congested, right. And naturally, when you have a pain customer saying hey, I'm trying to hit googlecom, why isn't it working, the Internet serversurviors not going to turn around saying well, you know, Joe Shamo down the street is you know, he's uploading a five gig video of the latest DVD rip of some movie. Right. So, naturally, what what happened was they created a whole new industry called DPI, which is deepacking inspection, and you have companies literally formed whole new markets were the only goal was to fill to the traffic and drop it. They did unique things that they would they would take all the TCP windows so they would collapse. So therefore your throughput will go down. The bottom line is they started filtering the traffic of point to point right and that happened in the S and it was pretty bad, bad back then, because the bandwidth technology didn't didn't it wasn't keeping up right, because your home was still limited to ten, fifteen megs. More importantly, the aggregation points. They they were very expensive as well. So they created a two three billion dollar industries, companies where they would pretty much designed to just filter point too point traffic. But naturally, over time what happened was you had evolution of technology. You got the cable plant started evolving, you got fiber coming to the home, so there's more and more bandwidth that started being delivered to the home. So less of the DPI was happening at the edge. Now fast forward to today. What you see happening is very similar to the point I was mentioning earlier about margin compression. You have all this margin compression happening in the industry and they're and you know, at the end of the day, they can't charge you or me three, four five hundred dollars a month. Right, at least that's not the expectation to date. So what do they do? They start saving costs and other part of the network. All Right, fine, you know, the natural the natural behavioral be all right, you know, what is petty do at home? What is you know, what what is John Doing at home? And they see, you know, eighty nine percent of traffick is downstream. Hey, out of the eighty nine percent, maybe five. Maybe out of that five percent it's web traffic. But Ninety five percent is Netflix, youtube, Amazon, spotify, and the irony there is under all that, most of it's probably Amazon's web services. So you know, then the the what starts to happen in their mind is, hey, let's optimize the infrastructure to deliver content cost effectively to these environments and not to the others. So, to to make an analogy, it's like, you know, in the bay area, say, you know, going to San Francisco in the morning, you there's a lot of traffic, right. So you know, one day they decide, hey, let's build eight more lanes into the city. But over time someone decides to say, Hey, I want to run point two, point decentralized web everywhere, which means the roads have to be four lanes everywhere else. WHO's going to pay for that and when? So naturally the only the only result will be congestion. So that's kind of what's happening now. And to literally give you one data point, now, the latest one is zoom, or zoom as a company. They weren't considered critical infrastructure and now they are. Right. So if you look at just their building the last six month, they're expanding from like a literally a handful of data centers almost every day, to center that they can and they're just rapidly expanding right and now, naturally, the Internet infrastructure, all these Internet serves survivors are rapidly trying to get ahold of zoom saying hey, let's connect directly because it's more efficient that way, because our customers need...

...to connect you. So it's usually less about technology, more about what's happening and more driven by the business and the economics of things, and I think that's what I'm trying to bring to light is if you know some of the sides, you know tomorrow saying Hey, you know the web in the whole web three space that just flip on a switch and and then you know magically everything's going to be served by IPFs or some other delivery technology and say, yeah, I'm going to serve websites from my home because I'm incentibus to do so with some you know, some token as an example. Reality is it'll be okay right for the first couple of years, but once you hit that critical mass, you have this underlying infrastructure that just can't support it and, more importantly, the business models don't support it as well, and they're not in the value chain. So naturally their only response is going to be to try to filter control it. That's my day at least. So it's comes to the nature of all of these things. Is the fact of it. You just said, they're not in the value chain and it tends to be a suggared, recidualized peer to peer connection on how these things are served, and a lot of a drastically expands the uploading requirements from the individual user. Do you see? Do you see a future where, like, the infrastructure can adapt to this based on this service demand by the users, or is this something that just like, because overwhelmingly the majority of bandwidth is coming from service consumption like Netflix and stuff like. There's just there's it's always going to be a blip on the radar. It'll all, I mean, it's already, it's currently is a blip in the radar and and it always will be. There's always the rest, what I called the five percent of the traffic that they really don't care about, which is the benign stuff. But the moment that starts to creep up and start to get in the radar where it's actually impacting the performance and quality of the network, that's when they start to care and there's there's a couple of things they can do to real back to it. To your point, it's never a question of technology. What I mean is, you know, you and I, for example, or all any of US rather, depending on where we are physically, we either have access to a physical plant, whether that's cable or fiber. They're designed literally to optimize for the download than it is the upload, but there's no reason why they couldn't configure the wavelengths or the spectrum on the wireless side, for like for G Org, to optimize for upstream or make it symmetrical. I mean most of like five deployments today are one GIG symmetrical. But there the reality and the joke is I always see people paying to three dollars for one get to the home. The reality is your next hop from there is likely not giving you that capacity upstream. So I always find the one hundred megas usually sweet spot for the home because naturally you can consume one gig from somewhere far away. And usual when people do speed test, the service right is kind of optimized for that. They run speed test closest to your home. So it looks like you're getting a GIG and in reality you are, but the reality is most your content is somewhere further away. But back to your question is it's not a technology problem, it's a business problem, right. And the question then is there's two ways about it. Right. They can start make a consumption based saying hey, fine, I'll let you start sending a lot more traffic upstream, but we got to go to a usage base model. Therefore, you know, instead of the all you can eat model where you're paying fives, sixty months and maybe twenty extra month to get unlimited, because they do have a UBI model today. They kind of cap you. Naturally there's increase that cap. Right. So now people, so you and I, for example, if we decide to run some some type of distribute it technology in our home, whether it's for storage, for IPFs, and I know there's tons of others out there, and say our upstream traffic starts to go up in an order of magnitude like five, six times, we are you and I might have to start paying two, three, four hundred allers a month, if that's how the Servisi fighters react in order to fund the infrastructure builds. So the question now is is it? What it? What's The incent that for me to pay that four hundred a month and I'm making that kind of money by running this infrastructure or enabling these services in my home? That's one way about it. Another way about it is they they introduce themselves into the value chain. See, one argument I tend to make is they've been so commoditized as a as a an operator. One way that it reintroduce themselves into the value chain because, e. everything is over the top now, whether it's a Netflix that's running and producing content, whether...

...it's twilio providing very similar functionality to a Teleco, where it's a WS GCP or Amazon or, sorry, Google. All these guys are literally reaping the benefits of the infrastructure, these these companies have built out over the last twenty years. You know, it's you want to figure out a wait, how to if you want to compete with them, therefore align yourself in the incent of model. So there's two ways of going at it. Honestly, I don't see them as forward thinking like that. Therefore, the natural progression I see, Havny, is they'll just end up charging you and I'm more therefore, the question than becomes is that cost that we paid extra per month? Are we reaping the benefits of those costs with whatever incentive we've been given to run those services in our home? That's kind of how I see a plan out, at least in the in the short, timid term. Puts a new spin and on kind of like if I look at like file coin, for example, right the the requirements and resources required to run a validator for vowel corner or pretty extensive meeting that you need some type of organization or a front capital and access to pretty specialized hardware in order to just participate in the validation process, leaning towards people, like larger corporations, actually doing it. Maybe it's something that I, as P's of want to be involved in in terms of a service they provide in the process of like reduced himself back in the value Chane because I'm not going to be able to do that. Do you feel like that's a that's something people have caught onto and they're trying to get in there, or is just kind of a consequence of decisions they made in the NASCESS security protocol and it's the consequences? It'll be an old shit moment that and that, honestly, and in business that's usually what it comes to. It's like someone until it's unless it's painful. Usually when there's pain, therefore there's a problem, and if there's a problem, there's value to be inserted in order to address it. There for to make money. That's how at least I mean not to be so basic about it, is there's always the aspirational. You want to focus on, how the big vision, but ultimately the Daytoday, in terms of execution, people tend to focus on what's the pain points for today. I mean I've had these discussions. I've tried to bring it up in the space. Like give a perfect example. Right in two thousand and ten, two thousand and nine, wireless networks were literally tipping over, right, they were literally falling over there on the fire and then everyone, and whether people remember it or not, that it was a very simple the like what happened? Why was why was it doing that? Very simple. Any wireless network today or any wireless device that you have at home, any every session that you create, like if you go to, you know, the big COOIN podcastcom, it'll likely probably create twenty thirty TCP sessions. Whether it's all the little add trackers in the background for analytics to download the website doesn't matter. There's twenty thirty sessions on a mobile device was resulting in twenty thirty sessions being tracked in the mobile network and there's reasons for that. Right. It's at home, it's you don't have a state full of device at home. I mean you do to some degree, but not to the level of the mobile networks. The reason the mobile networks had these firewalls that captured and managed state was very simple because you want in a while you see, hey, if you have t mobile, you get Nefflix for free if it's for ATP or below. Right, it's part of your plan. Well, how do you determine that? Simple? Right. They kind of do some clever tricks where they insert certain headers in the http and that first device, the firewall in the mobile network says, Hey, this guy is coming in Netflix for ATP. Let me dip into this authentication authorization server. Yep, he's part of this plan. All right, send them this way. Right. So the the point is to kind of make the to go back to the original point, is one device was now generating hundred of connections because you literally had your browser Sofari on the first iphone, which in the past it was like this is really shitty mobile device, creating ten or five sessions. Now you had a single device creating hundreds, if not thousands, of sessions. So now you add tens of thousand the mobile devices, literally of things the net, the network from melting. So they have to go spend a hundreds of millions of dollars to build out just as one layer of firewall proxy infrastructure. That just to give you a very simple example of just you know, the reason, the cause and effectory the the cause was awesome smartphone. Everyone loved that. The effect was Holy Shit, network was architect that this way. Let's react to it. And the reason there...

...was money for it is natural, right, because everyone was signing up for a limited data plans. All the mobile careers are making tons of money and apple is making tons of money. Right. I don't see that happening. Like, what's going to be the trigger point for you and I, for example, to run a filecoin note at home? They say we even decide, because I just I literally I load up in the theorium note on my laptop. This goofing around, or even a filecoin node. It literally creates fifteen to Twentyzero connections. I mean that's mindboggling, but that's the expectation, right. So I've had conversations in some of the protocol labs slack channels. I'm saying, you guys realize that Shit won't scale. I mean, I'm very honest, I'm very upfront with him right there, like yeah, the solution is we capped it to a thousand sessions. I'm like fine, but the most she'll ever get from a thousand sessions on is maybe on a laptop. You'll never be able to pull that off on a phone. Like what's your vision? And there the responses natural and and it's expect that I'm not expecting to do much. is they just say, Hey, when we get to that problem, will look at it. Right. But my point is, don't think of it just as a technical issue. It's also it's more about an incentive or a lot of game theory involved here, and that want you to figure that out. Then you can figure out how you really build out the infrastructure away that and everyone can kind of benefit from it. That's kind of how I see it at least. Yeah. So, so it sounds pretty clear that you're saying like industry follows usage patterns and responds to demand, and essentially, Yep. But what would have to happen, like what would say the demand was there for usage vetterns that are completely, you know, far more decentralized, much more PGP, not necessarily conforming to the well, well traveled roads that that are there already, will kind of lifted. That being like, what would even have to happen for that demand to be satisfied or draft Myke? So the the imediate thing that would have to happen like it was back in March. My cable, my cable mode and kept resetting once to day. I finally love you know, it's during the pandemic. everyte no known wanted to come out. I was with comcast. Finally, I literally just told him, look, I looked at this, your cmts. I found it in my block and I looked at my port and I said, you have a rosion here. There was some water leaked into the box. You got to come and replace it. They ended up doing that all right, but that's that's that's less the point. The point I want to make is that device that I pointed them, I pointed out to them has a certain fixed capacity. Let's just call it x, right, and x can be sliced in a way that says eighty percent is allocated for channels downstream, twenty percent is allocated for traffic upstream. Right. And now what would need to happen is there has to be an economic innsenter for them to say, Hey, do we switch that to fifty right or there, or do we need to put a bigger box there? And these boxes, which they call CMTs, is cable modem termination systems for cable plants at least. DSL and five are different things and for radio it's also different. But to put these kind of you box out there, you're talking about hundred of thousand, in some case millions of dollars, because guys have to come out rip out boxes. It's a it's disruptive to the customers. Right. They have to plan a maintenance window. So there's things don't happen overnight. So you either the natural the immediate solution, I guess John Chick question is they can start tweaking the parameters for the down stream up stream. But there's there's there's a flip side to that. Hey, if we give more upstream for Marku to host some random website for d you know, web three blog, or for what is preceded as uncontrollable content, you know, let's just face it. You know, because it's decentralized, are going to be content there that that you have less of a single throat to choke, like Youtube, for example. Therefore, that that'll be one view. The other view is like if we tweet the fifty percent down netflix users in this cable plan, therefore, would experience, maybe not for k streaming, maybe K, maybe twenty P so there that's the downside, right, because you only you always have just a fixed capacity, right, and you can play with the fixed capacity as an immediate solution. You can grow the fixed capacity, which is a capital tensive process. And the question then becomes is who pays for that? Right? So that goes back to the does corey and I decide to...

...pay to three hundred a month just because I want to host some random blog off my computer and maybe make five ten bucks a month and file coin or what is it? Right? So, and I don't have answer the questions directly, John or indirectly. I guess the question. From a technology standpoint it's very clear what what those answers can be. It's always about the the timing to do, like if you can always tweak the existing parameters in the system that's there today, or you can upgrade the capacity of the system, which takes a longer, longer cycle to do. Is just have to plan that out, get people out there rip wires out, replace boxes. Yeah, that makes sense. And, by the way, that's that's just the last mile like from literally for me and my home to like a box of my neighborhood. Then you've got fire plants that go to what they call points of presence. Then you got the data centers, then you get the massive backbones that connect the global infrastructure. So, though, those things all have to be considered because also those see what what I presented at the web three summit think a couple of years ago, feels like a couple of years ago, was the the the last mile my home to this cable, the to this first device has been highly optimized for as asymmetry. But what's been happening, as I mentioned earlier in the call, is the margin compression that's happening in the Internet delivery business is been so strong because the demand just keeps growing, right, is that they've been optimizing this asymmetry further into the network, and that's that's that's a much harder thing to unwind because the cost they're Gett into the tens of millions, hundreds of millions, right. So they've been optimizing kind of the second third tier of the networks towards the core, to be more centralized within the box, right, and they're optimizing for that right down to the memory right, because not to get too technical, but you know, when I try to go netflixcom that tends to that. That result in an IP address and then the router has to make a decision what interface I send that out. Well, then there's different kinds of memory where you have level one, two, three, four. Level one Memori is the memory you can look look up within microseconds and then send the pack it out, because the longer takes you to look up a pack or an interface, the longer takes to get the packet there and it impacts the user experience. So they're even optimizing right down to that level. Like do I put all of Netflix routes on my layer one memory and then I put maybe Joe Blows prefixes, which happens to now be p to P, on level three memory? You know? And what's been happening is they've been putting more and more of the core Internet services, the content providers, where the most of them and is on this level one stuff and throwing the rest out there just to optimize the cost of the box. And that's where I'm saying it's heart. It's going to be very hard for the Internet service providers to unwind what they're doing because they're optimizing the physical infrastructure right down to the boxes. Right down to the memory components for the current usage patterns of today. I was going to say, on top of that, kind of what you've mentioned earlier, like that no one knows, no one talks about this specific scenario in terms of how the Internet is reoptimiztic, the Internet infrastructures, we optimizing itself to serve all the stuff that's being consumed and and how that affects network traffic, at least like how we consume over traffic. And I would venture a guest, and I don't think either of you would argue with me, or anyone else who's listening this would argue with me, that the incentive models that people are coming up with with respect to Peter, peer services and blockchain have not fought about this and are not aligned with this kind of reorganization. Right, they're doing it from a this they're completely ignorant of this. Is there any type of restructuring of incentive models that people should be aware of when thinking about how to think about the service providers of their particular network and how the offers, like you said right, like you can run an ips know that opens up thousands of connections for potentially maybe five tocent dollar, five to ten dollars a month and providing services, right, but like that's because they're not thinking about these things and the potential cost to you based on what happens if they...

...come weld to successful. How do you re architect the incentives to be aligned with this type of thing such that, like, in the event that that happens, the people who are providing the services are going to get paid commensurate with the costs of running those services? It's a that's a hard question, Corey. I mean, I've notdled with it in my head. Definitely requires a lot of money and a lot of brain power because in my mind, what I what I see closely tied is the bandwidth is not an infinite resource, right and if anything, bannedwidth as a property as being kind of morphed organically over time to will be optimized for the consumption patterns of the day. What I'm what ultimately that means is there's a physics, physicality, there's a physical aspect in the reason the real world, where you have a finite resource that's tied now to this aspiration for dramatically changing the content delivery behavior and there's a huge disconnect there right, and not just a disconnect in the incent of models, but the actual operators or the the organizations and companies who literally lay out this infrastructure. Right, and I don't have a quick answer for you, and it's just not the last mile, like you know, and what I just what everything I've talked to you right now about is literally the physical cable plant. Spectrum is another that, just another level. Right. It's like you know the you know there there are companies, individuals who were who licensed spectrum from the FEC forty, fifty years ago, who are billionaires now and they own space. That's all they own, right, and they license spectrum to atnta rising at the tens and fifteens of billions for our ability to download more things on these devices, right, and as these things start to be consumed, the more spectrum than becomes even at higher cost commodity. So you all just all these dynamics on the operators and the capital cost needed for this resource and there's a complete disconnect on how these protocols are being built on the top. Can Can the to be built in a way where they kind of aligned? Yes, that's like a that's something that requires thinking out and execution. That probably would take a five ten year journey. In my view. I'm almost have the belief that you almost have to build a you have to start building it a whole new infrastructure in parallel to it. And it's been done the very similar to spacex. But then you know, you got a guy like Elon and saying hey, let me just launch all my satellites into space. fucked everyone else, I'm cutting them all out because I can't deal with that shit anymore and putting four thousand plus satellites. I think ACCC just approved eight thousand and he's starting from scratch. But I mean other than him. I was going to say he doesn't think about crypto. He's well, he does, or whether it's the real him or not in this questionable, but it does power once in a while. But the reality is, will spacex kind of think of how they aligned these incent of models? I don't think so. And satellites is not the right solution for upstream. They're highly optimized for downstream as well at the radio levels. So very long way of saying I don't have an answer for you. I've thought about it, but unfortunate the day job gets in the way and I just haven't really sat down and I'm probably not the right guy to do it. But one thing I will throw out there. I think it's a perfect time for the people who figure out the right and sent the model and ultimately requires this new build of infrastructure, physically but also at the protocol level. You know, and you see it all the time, and naturally I think what's going to happen is you will see a disconnect between China and the rest of the world or whoever else trying to get into their internet. They've already kind of have it. At least they're public about it the Great Wall. You know, we're less public about it here, but you know, the NSA does does look at things right and it's been it's been well documented by certain individuals. But bottom line is the Internet still free. But if you if you have enough understanding of the protocol level, it's actually pretty pretty obvious. Or like a China every day randomly says hey, for the next eight hours, I'm UBS therefore route all traffic to me. Russia does the same thing too. So what I'm trying to say is the security at the protocol level for the Internet structure is very weak. It was almost like twenty years ago, we just trusted your I sink. Hey Perry, you tell me you own these tenzero...

...customers. Therefore, I believe you. I will enforce that manually on my router and hopefully no one else tries to screw with that type of understanding. There are like public databases that track this, but it's all managed by like a single entity and it's easy to manipulate that data, and that's why I like countries like, again, Russia and China. They literally intercept all this traffic to, you know, to sniff it right. So what I'm saying is there's there's there's possibilities where I see some blockchain technology solving the security aspect there. If you kind of lump that all together with this really, really kind of new infrastructure build a truly new Internet in parallel, that I think has more potential because you can make the case that it's more secure, it's designed in a certain way that better aligns with, you know, all the non technical reasons of why people want a web three, given all the geopolitical climate does of late, you just need a whole lot of capital, really smart people who are who are willing to do that right and that'll be a five ten year project at least, just like the Internet was right. It really started in the in the mid S, early S. that's interesting. I'm trying to think like on top of like. What's not going to work, because I is it. It's a lot of the Times you hear the marketing pitches of a lot of projects. Status is partially involved with this is that like everyone's equal, all nodes are equal, running note on your phone, do all these things. And when you take a look at the networking stack, De have, PTP, lipp top, that's certainly not the case. Of what the recess is the if you look at the resources available in each of these machines and what they're capable in terms of like processing, memory, computing, a bandwidth and connectivity. Even even the conversation around running an F to validator hasn't really been talked about based on the resources required to do so. Like what's not going to work for these larger networks when they're trying to run what would be considered critical infrastructure for these large value networks? Like it's when you have, especially as you know, the complexity of consensus grows larger and finality becomes more important. You need better data availability and things like that, and we build more and more and more in these networks and the underlying protocols get more ossified. If the infrastructure can't keep up with it, it's going to be an issue. So like having the conversations of what's not going to work, especially in terms of critical infrastructure, that supporting these things is pretty valuable. Like what's not going to work, what sucks, what's what's the way that we're doing things now that clearly isn't going to work in the end. In the case that we're successful and we run in these problems where network is ISP and infrastructure starts saying like we're gonna have to do something about this, it's a naivety, right. I mean, it's not a what I mean is it's these people, you know, these projects, that the industry is so focused on doing their projects right. I don't think. I don't think they just had the time to think it through right. So give you what in my mind, at least, the way I see things happening literally, is it's it'll get to the Oh shit moment and then people start to realize, okay, what can we do? But it'll be a painful six and twelve, maybe a couple of years process. Another perfect example, right, you know, you use a surge. Google is probably in the two thousand and ten, two thousand and eleven time frame ish on. Netflix would just experiencing an explosion of growth. Right, it comes down to cost, right. So you know comcast was bitching. All the comcast customers, rather like you, you know, anyone's consuming concast say hey, my netflix sucks, right, I can't stream shit, right, and then comcast would be like not my problem, it's Netflix problem because they have to grow the capacity. Right, and Netflix is saying no, it's not our problem, it's comcast problem because they're trying. It's hard charge as Fortyzero for every ten GIG court, right, and then there's this finger pointing right. And then comcast is saying, well, I'm not spending a half, you know, another five hundred and ten, fifteen million, whatever the number will be, to upgrade infrastructure, when my end cost is not changing. I'm still...

...charging the sixty bucks a month and Netflix is not paying for it either. So there was a literally there was I think there was one point with it was like a twenty four hour period where they deepeered. It literally broke up portion of the Internet where Netflix said screw you, comcast said screw you, and they're upstream providers, which is level three, which is a transit provider. They deepeered and it was broken until, I think the government stepped and said, you guys better reconnect. Are you going to get your ass handed to you? Right, but it literally will come to that. It's going to be like, you know, you know, like a you know, the let's assume deffinity becomes the platform where there's all this growth happening right and in order to meet them, Parden to watch choice, right, a deffinity or find an etherium? Anyone has a successful the reason I picked definity, and it was it popped into my head while you were talking, is I think they've noticed this problem right, because two and a half, three years ago, they were hiring for vp of networking engineering, and it's very subtle in their messaging, but they said, in order to boot strap the definity network, we've built out in data centers ourselves. So in some ways they already building out this new infrastructure that's needed that will likely run. I mean it's going to connect to the traditional web as we know today. But it's ultimately what I think is the seeding of building out this physical infrastructure needed for the future Internet. Right. So that's at least I know. I don't know anyone there, you know, full disclosure. It just the when I see the messaging and you know, I see the random job posting on the recruiters asking me, you know, I'm interested. I was like, awesome project. Unfortunate, I just started a new company with a couple of guys. I can't bail on them, but I see they have that thought process. So back back to my point. Is, you know, say diffinity, is that joys or again status or someone who has all this traffic and then you say, Hey, I need to increase my capacity to to a TNT, to I don't know, verizon, comcast, because I've customers complaining there and then those servers of writers saying great, you know, they send their sleazy sales guide to you and says this is awesome. Right. Let me let me quote you a couple of connections. That'll be, you know, probably two, two and a half, three hundred thousand dollars per year for four UN to get connection right and you're like well, well, how do I pay for that? Right? So then you get in that discussion and most people just give in. Right. Some people just put their foot down if they have the market power, like Netflix did in that example. But it'll come to that just cost. I mean there'll be a do be a situation where all this capital flows into growing the infrastructure. So finally it gets the capital gets a point where you're financial person, your cfoill be like this unsustainable man, we need we did to figure this out, and then they start to figure out, Hey, do we build our own infrastructure? And I don't naturally progress into that. It's kind of how I view it. But short answers. I go ahead, John. Sorry. Yeah, what's an interesting certain pattern here is like I think plays out in lots of other decentralized systems, is just not just is like not just the demand, but like the social aspects. So with everything you're talking about, there's like, you know, one person comcast can call one person from Netflix and like Hash at the problem together, whereas with these the idealized, the centralized network, there's just there's just no clear point of contact and and large organizations like they want somebody to go talk to. So it seems almost like, yeah, there's there's just like those stakeholder challenges. Yeah, I mean see, yeah, so that I'll give you my opinion at least this. I don't think you can ever get away, at least when it comes to the physical world. You can't get away from a single entity owning it. That just the user experience, right. You know, if if I'm having a cable plant issue, I need to call the phone and say fix my shit, right, if my wireless homes at working, come fix my shit. And I've I see all these aspirational projects where they want to create this full mesh point to point, as US another word, stuff other than the technology being questionable. I just don't see it working in a non technical sense, right. I mean there's I've seen some people in some conferences, I forget where. Guy was literally walking around. You had ten access points on him. He's like, I'm a mobile I'm a mobile radio tower. Awesome. He's...

...like we're going to go full point too point, right. You know, I'm going to get paid for posting my point to point connections and ultimately providing Wi fi to anyone who's near me. I'm like well, other than the health reasons for doing that. For you do, what happens if you go? Like if you go, what happens with you go away, and what happens to the people who are dependent on you for acts to the Internet? It just do it doesn't work that way. I think when you get hot, and that's right at the end what I call the access layer, John, but when you kind of go deeper into it, and that's where again, why I brought up the diffinity is, at the end of the day, definity when, as they build out their data send infrastructure, the you know, whoever the network guy is, they're going to be like, all right, I need basic connectivity to the Internet and you only got about five or six players around the world. I do that right, it's either like a coagent or a level three or Tatia. Tell the other you broughatly on all these names. These are likely these are tier one providers and most people probably never heard of them. But these are the guys who spend ten, fifteen billion dollars to send the boat off across the Pacific or the Atlantic and they run fibers along the ocean floor. Right, is that? Capacities needed? Right, you can't get away from these people providing you that stuff. So anyone who's anyone at that second or third level is Altim we're going to have to engage in some commercial engagement with these these entities. Right. Then there's the optimization layer, what I just explain, those five or six what they called transit providers. Naturally you'll be like hey, cocks, which is a regional provider, or you have Netflix, to our content providers, those companies, they're more regional. Therefore you want to connect to them directly, and that that concept is typically referred to as peering in the industry, and that becomes more complicated. But it really comes down to your point, John. Mostly the Internet infrastructure is built on business negotiation, business relationship. It's usually always less technical. It's more about, all right, if I connect to you, what's in it for me? Otherwise I'm asking you for money, right, and I honestly do not see how we get away from that, at least when you get deeper into the infrastructure, because it's such a complex needs not only to build the capital to build that infrastructure, but the operated. Can An operator be created day one who's decentralized? Yes, but they're still going to have to be some some entity or someone that decides what those business models look like. I don't put the smart contractor Dowt, I don't know. What I'm saying is those kind of things it's hard to me to map in my mind. Maybe I come from that world right and maybe it's an you need to fresh re view, but it's that a portion of that is control. To write like, you go to that person because they have the power to do something, and a good portion of the idealism behind decentralized web is giving up that control and distributing a distributing the power across the mini and and that type of situation. Who Do you go to when you need something changed, because there's not any single person who can change something, which's it doesn't hap fast and how that grows and to become the standard is not something that I can necessarily wrap my head around. Yeah, it's a you're right on the money. You need a single throw at the joke, right, especially when it comes to, you know, mom and pop. I'm being being able to act as my internet because now more than ever, we're more dependent on it on our day to day lives, you know, and you can't say, well, we ask the doubt, we have this governance, we're going to send out, you know, we're hoping someone responds in the next two three days, right it? It doesn't work that way in my view. And then you got the regulatory and compliance and needs, right like it or not, depending on what region you're operating in. Up They come and serve your warrant. You have to comply, right, you have to. Either you have to provide the data that they're looking for. You know, they have a warrant saying so andso is accused of hosting certain type of content that's inappropriate. Provide all the information on this individual, like you know, and whatever entity that in is or whatever country that entities operating and has to conform to that as well. Otherwise it'll be very hard for the entity to even be existing in that in that kind of country. Right. So there's a lot of governance at the at the real world and compliance.

That, I think, is not the not appreciate it. Same thing with the Europe, right, the Europe has the as a GDP. Are The forget the rights? You Forgotten? They're like yes, pretty much, and think, but there's other things that say my data as a European citizen should never ever be hosted on any computer outside the European Union. Like how to even force that right? And then if you don't do your your organization or your you know, your legal entity gets fine, tens of billions of dollars right, it's like, okay, there's so they'll definitely a lot of complexity to it. I haven't thought through all the all the issues of myself. Is just you know, it's a it's a it'll be an interesting, interesting time in the next five years, as I suspect the web three movement will pick up steam. There will be a lot of adoption and success, but I think you'll hit this critical point where a lot of people have that Oh shit moment or at how do we figure these things out? And it'll be messy. But you know, like anything we're doing, there's it's a process, it's a challenge and I think the outcome should be positive. Hopefully that's the goal. I agree with you. I just think these conversations now are worth while and for kind of the understanding of like how things are built and the motivation behind how they're being built out should be understood more within this ecosystem so that we can position ourselves appropriately or even start to like try and do something about it or understand that it's going to be a problem in the future, versus just being blindsided by it when it actually happens. Right. Yeah, it's a I've talked to some DCS just in passing, not because you know I you know not. I'm active looking to raise VC money from the CRYPTO like crypto oriented DC's. They have zero clue about this, right, even their notion, when they say I want to build infrastructure, they're still talking about like second, third level chains. Right. I'm like, no, that's not the infrastructure I'm thinking about right. It's like I'm thinking of other kind of infrastructure. How do you view it? And then I talked to BC's, you know in Sandhill road. You know they'll invest. They have like a one or two investments here and there in the crypto space, but they come from a very infrastructure and enterprise oriented world. So the huge disconnect in expertise and understanding. That's to me. That's the value of that BC's brings to the table. You know, I see. Those were fun, but I really, especially now that I've gone through the process, my now that I kind of gone through the process myself, I see the tremendous value they bring. It's mainly the experience right, and don't get me wrong with that. There's some who are just nasty out there, but you find the right VC as a partner, they literally just you know, they can coach you, they on board you, they kind of help you avoid the pitfall. The good ones are semi hands off and hands on. So there's tremendous value there. But there's still this in the VC space you see this disconnect between the understanding. The only one I can see them trying to make an effort is a Z, but even then it's still very high level. I never see any projects before focused on what I would consider the infrastructure discussions and it's a it'll be an interesting space. But naturally, like anything, if there's a big problem to be solved, capital tends to kind of flow there. So yeah, to go back to original point I was trying to make is I've had conversations. I try to bring it up. Sometimes they just get brushed off as me trying to be what's being negative. I's trying to run your contrary and yeah, I'm just saying, Hey, guys, I love your Shit, you know, I love the energy. I was in it when I was building the Internet back in the dial up days. Right, I love it, or otherwise I'll go back to my day job. Right, I'll, I know, I'll make my money hanging out there and that's good, but I love the the the reason why it exists. Right, I can. I love the energy, you know. It's just I want to make sure some of you are, you know, enlightened to what this is, and some people picked that up. There's a couple of guys I've been talking to, at least protocol labs when I presented that web three. We've kept we've kept kind of on and off conversations, but nothing formal. Right, it's it just one of those hey, what's the latest going on there? I've talked to a VC's here and there as well in the crypto space, but, like I said, very informal. And...

...of course, you guys in the slack channel. But maybe maybe in a couple of years I'll just kind of double down on it and maybe jump in both feat myself. Figured figure I'll try something there too. Do you have some some specific advice for like what these network developers should be doing differently now to to be more future proof or to spade these walls? Or should they just like try to run into these walls quicker and incentivize users to get angry and and call their ISP's? Yeah, I don't think it's from a technology standpoint. I don't as if I'm a network developer, I don't know. Typically these things are out of my purview. They it becomes a challenge, you know, as a developer, at least these things become a challenge when I face them. Right, as an architect, right, you can kind of envision them, but at least my thinking right now is there because of this bridge to the physicality needed of just building this infrastructure. I don't see how you get around the need to have some type of business development person, someone who who works out of at a business level to understand what it takes to put these on, you know, these contracts together with all these different entities. You know, it's equipment, of renting out a home right after rent out space in the data center, put out this infrastructure. What's my power space cooling? How do I connect it? These things typically developers never think of. Right. You know, I joke with the most most people today is once I was a I don't know who I was talking to, what they're saying. They were giving a, you know, a new set of hires at Amazon one of the tours of their data centers, which are typically highly secrative. But one of the developers said, Oh, look at that router. Right, you know this. You told me. This port is a ten GIG ten gigabits, and this one's a hundred gigabits. Why is this one? Why then, why are both? Why are they both physically the same size? Right, it's like there's this complete disconnect of the you know, the especially the people understanding how the stuff work, that they don't even know what Ip addresses the most kids. Most People's point to an apion point and that's the Internet to them. Right. So education is probably one right, but I don't know what's going to scentivize developer to educate themselves like me, try to understand the plumbing or how electricity work nowadays. I mean I do now that I bought a home, but most people won't do it just for the fun of it, right, I bought it because there was a need. So, to your point, it's I think until they get to that point where they're forced to understand how the stuff works. You know, that's the incent that, right is oh shit, I hit a wall. Maybe there's another economic consent of I'm not aware of. I don't know. But byles these companies, you know, if I knew what my bigger vision was and what would it take to get there, some good planning at the leadership level, then definitely they would understand, hey, we need to really figure this out and get the right people on it now, and that would include how do I build out? Maybe supporting infrastructure? How do I build out you know, business relationship? That helped address that overtime. Right. I think it's more of that and less of developer. Developers will clearly come int the picture, but the thinking right now should be more around that, in my view. But again, that just mess my point of view. There could be others. I just don't see it. I just you know, even if I did an I see out today right, and raise ten billion dollars going, I want to build a new decentralized web right, I couldn't even do it overnight. Right. I'd have to hire all the right people, I'd have to figure out what data sentism put my equipment in. You know it's going to be another three to four year project just to execute on right. I would argue that it's a portion of that requirement in terms of what people should be doing. It's understanding the consumption that their particular project has on the different players of the network and how that scales over time in the in the event of a in the event of success, like what does bandwidth do and when our network grows exponentially at what and you could you can block that as a function if he's matted exactly how your protocol works in some way, shape or form. And then where's the burden being put? Is it being put on note operators? Is there a hierarchy of note...

...operators? How is that change over time, depending on what they're doing within the within the network? What about the consumption of these people? How many you know? How does that work? What are they what's required of them as the network grows over time? How does the how does the money get dispersed across all these different players, and is that going to be enough to for them to consume the services that they may or may not find valuable? Like if you're not asking those questions as a project that you haven't seriously thought about scale or even how your project actually operates, and I think that's that's the at least a minimal requirement to then start to even fathom what's way down on the line when you start to run into these barriers of like, Oh shit, I asked peas, or throttling us because we're we're more than a blip on the radar, or like that's a great view point, right. I mean, in my mind I kind of map that to the architecture role and maybe the architect is just an uber developer. These individuals need to kind of think about that for their project at a higher, higher level, right, beyond just the twelve to eighteen month view of what can my projects last protocol? Do you know? The the assumption there is, if I'm successful, what's going to be my roadblocks? Right? And to your point, modeling bandwidth and what implications of that consumption has on the world around the bandwidth should be at the top of everyone's mind. And again, I'm that little fly in the wall that just randomly brings it up once in a while, but you know, you know I do my best. I tried I'm planned to put like a blog, a couple of blogs together, just kind of educating people in my spare time on fortune, which becoming less these days, but it's what I do when I can. But I agree with you, for Cory, one hundred percent. Well, guess about all I got that I can probably talk about this for ever. I find the stuff fascinating. So I brought you on the first place. But John, you got any other questions or a big poin? You big blocker or small blocker? That's a pretty good question. That's a pretty good question. That the scenario. What's the what's the right answer? Be Honest? Yeah, yeah, I'm just a holder. I haven't really kept up in the from a space point of view. I'm on and off. So I won't make a yeah, I don't have an answer for you. I just I increase my holdings gradually or, you know, every month, here and there when I can, and I have some other other money and some some funds that kind of index on. That's on the crypto stuff, but other than that, you try to play tell us your bags really like. It's just okay, it was. It a quick answer. Fine, I don't know what the right one is is longer or it's whatever your answer wants to pay. Yeah, it's a familiar with the this like big block small block debate. That is like quieted down, but it was. I have snow, so, you know, like a interesting then. So, like bitcoin block can hold one megabyte. So every you know, every ten minutes. Yet about a megabyte of transaction data. That okay, okay, and sometime go there was there was this debate about whether that ceiling should be lifted and in order to, you know, enable some some kind of quick and dirty scaling of try network capacity. And it sounds like a simple win, but you get into all these questions. But to centralization and and security cost and, you know, can part resources Indian gone to like that's sugar, to block across the globe and a sort of enough time for them to not have an advantage over like the rest of the network terms of binding the next block, things like that. But this is I feel like there's been around for at least when I was actively engaged, like to two years ago. Though. What is coming up then? Okay, okay, so I'm a short blogger than or current current...

...size. Then, knowing what the easy easily be done with the network. I can definitely appreciate the concern security, concerns on the big books. I mean, what about wasn't that? This is like a couple of years ago. I'm trying to not I mean lightning. Lightning network built on top of it. I'm trying to remember. Wasn't there a transition period? There was a what was it called secrets something? Yes, seguent, right. Wasn't the kind of the whole? And that problems is actively put it to a little bit over two megabytes. Effectively due to the the segregated witness sweet engineering names and then some other optimizations and further other optimizations is maybe like their way to make blocks even more efficients and so forth. But effectively, like a bitcoin proper block is around two megabytes with the will get attached. And so I guess I love that reasonable thing to kind of like agree, like yeah, there's more capacity and we're not actively burdening the the validate or network too much terms of like segety and Damguige. Just concerns things like that. This doesn't network. Guy, I know how easy it is to manipulate the network. For example, was at least three four years ago ether wallet. Someone hijacked the prefix, someone got access to a router that was unsecured started announcing saying hey, I own route fifty three in us east. So all of Amazones DNS started going through this router, which they happen to then direct some of the traffic to a server which they tricked the DNS servers of route twenty, route fifty three for that specific kick prefix, which happened to be the one that is a my ether wallt or youth wallet, whatever whatever it was to three years ago. Long Story Short, they were they hijacked the DNS from my youth wall at using the network and they redirected everyone to their website that look just like it and they I think they stole a couple of millions dollars in either before someone realized. So not that hard to do these kind of things. So you know, and this that went back to my earlier point, is if you can figure out a way to rebuild this infrastructure, which would securely. That's security that's inherent to the protocols, where a simple hijack like that is not possible. That would, I think, be the sweet spot from a from a technical point of view, to incentivize existing operators to even look at this technology. anyways, that was kind of that's that's entirely different episode, which I have quite a few things. All right, guys as well. So, Marco, appreciate you coming on. I look forward to hear you more on this and the Bitcoin podcast. Flack and thank her. Thanks for sarcost yeah, likewise, thanks, Corey and John. This is fascinating. Thank you.

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