Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 97 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out # 97- CirclesUBI- Sarah Friend

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Sarah Friend is one of two developers working on Circles UBI. Circles is a
basic income project that seeks to build local economic communities. 

Links:CirclesUBI

Links: Sarah Friend

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Hey, what's up? So Avalanche, let's talk about it. What's an avalanche? Snow comes down real fast, fierce gains momentum. But I'm not talking about the natural disaster. Orif it's not a really disaster, I guess it no one's around. Butanyways, avalanche. What is it? You've heard about it, not,you're gonna hear some more. It's an open source platform for launching decentralized financeapplications. Right, defy. That's what you want. Developers who build onavalance can easily create powerful, reliable, secure applications and custom blockchain networks withcomplex rule sets, or build an existing private or public subnet right. Ithink what you should do right now is stop what you're doing, even ifit's listening to this podcast. Stop, pull over, go to the gasstation. If you need to go to a subway, there's a subway,like everywhere. There's always a subway, all right, all right, there'salways a kroger. Just stopping a parking lot somewhere. Go to Alva LAV, Alva labs dot org, to learn more. All right, stop,go to Alva lab. That's a va labs labs dot org. Now enteringforecast work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to thetech innovators behind blockchain infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weedsto get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face alongthe way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so youcan join our ranks. Welcome back to hashing everybody. I'm your coes fortoday John Martlin, with also co host Jay Harrold. Say Hi everybody.J Hi Everyone. It's a lovely morning and we have with us today Sarah, friend from the circle's UBI project. Say HIVERYWAYS are Hi'm a buddy.Thanks. Yeah, so get to have you here. So why don't westart with the standard bio question? Did you get into bit crypto and whatare you doing here? Yeah, for sure. So I'm here to talkto you today because I am one of two developers, yes, only tosomehow a project called Circle Tbi that launched on October sixteen and too much moreattention than be expected, happily, but I'll so with a fair bit ofsuffering on our parts. Yeah, I got into Crypto two thousand and sixteen. I used to work with John Actually in transparency at consensus for a coupleyears. It's true. We did a talk together that we did and Iwe did and it was it was a really good talk, I think,or like I learned a ton putting it together. Like I'll never forget whathappened to Rhythm D. Yeah, maybe we'll think only to this, tothe like, when recordings of the slides in the show notes. So yeah, why don't you tell us what circles you buy? Ubi Is? Yeah, for sure. So circles is a alternative version of what a universal basicincome could look like. So normally when people say universal basic income they meanthe state redistributing Fiat money, but circles is more like an alternative currency.So it has more in common with historical alternative currencies like the Brixton pound orif the good dollars. But it is an alternative currency that contains wealth redistribution inside its mechanisms. Or maybe a better way to put that is itd incentivizes hoarding. So yeah, it's a it's a community he community currencyproject that is built on right now, the XTI blockchain. So I thinkwe should probably get into the XTI blockchain. At some point too, but maybeyou can just say so. It's a community currency. How does it? How does it work? Yeah, well, I've explained circle so manytimes the last two weeks that I'm just like, what comes next? Youknow, my brain is scrambling around, but it is. So everyone assignsup for circles actually gets their own token,...

...which is a standard arc twenty token, as y'all probably familiar with, and they're also entered into a trustgraph of all of the other circles users. So we when you said their owntoken. It's like a personal token, right, it is. Yeah,okay, it's their own token contract, it's can it stays contained an attachedto their identity even as it flows through the system. So, yeah, the the sort of personal tokens have been a bit of a like fator mean lately. Like circles is a network of personal tokens. Okay,it makes sense. Yeah, and on these, I'm sorry, aren't thesenetwork tokens in the in this trust network, then interoperable? Yep, exactly.When when you're in a trustrework wet, you are embedded in a trust network, but when you trust someone, what you're like really doing materially iscommitting to exchange their token, the person you're trusting, at a one toone rate with your own token, and this is kind of how we dothe civil defense for circles. It's easy to make an account, but theidea or argument is that it's much harder to get actual other people who havereal things to exchange to trust your account. So that's what so this commitment issignifying that you're an individual. I believe so, for example, agive if I have a friend Alice, and I Trust Alice, I willaccept her token, but if she creates another account, I will probably notbe willing to trust that account and presumably also less willing to trust her riginalaccount. I would, I would, I would suggest on trusting Alice inthat situation, because it means that alice is collecting to two basic incomes.The argument is that it's actually quite difficult to maintain sort of parallel identities overa duration of time and there are is research about the threshold at which it'slike almost impossible to maintain, though I can't cite it. So yeah,this is a it kind of like it's a bit like an immune system.You might imagine of like these fake accounts. We find them out and then westart sort of walling them off and they end up being there a littlepocket of the network that's all fake accounts. And and by the way, thereis already one. It's kind of funny, like people have definitely writtenbots against circles. They've done it within the first like week and a halfand, yeah, stampoles samples of accounts. So it's like a little I meanlike if you picture, because this is a graph essentially, right,so there's almost like a fork of or not even a fork. I guessit's an isolated graph, but as long as I'm not trusting it, that'snot a problem for me in using circles. Yeah, so saftly it's a formof reputation networks in a way then. So if you're operating same multiple accounts, whether maliciously or not, ultimately the one that you're most public with, your public trust graph, I guess, which is really between people, twopeople, is incorporated into that that one profile. Yeah, yeah,OK, so we're the trust graph is all on chain and it is allpublic. Okay, so right, that's a good point. So you are, I mean with any typical blockchain, like all this is publicly visible,including your relationships and who you trust. Yeah, exactly. If you don'ttrust your friends back, not only do they know, but the world knows. But I think this is something that blocked. Like people on the blockchaincommunity are very familiar with that. Their transactions are visible on the blockchain,though maybe it's not as understood as as clearly as it could be in allquarters, but it's definitely something that is unfamiliar when you're talking with non cryptomativefolks. So I like to try to make it clear. Yeah, okay, yeah, so so what under what circumstances, or what are the factorsthat someone should take into account when deciding whether or not to trust someone?There being a lot of people posting their links on twitter, pinging people directly, saying Hey, can you trust me? What do you need to to toconsider and what are the implications of...

...extending your trust to someone in circles? Yeah, the the Heuristic, we say, is if you know someonein real life, and I don't necessarily mean in person, because I thinkthat real life can be online as well, but if you if you know someone, my personal heroistic has been like if I would accept a lun shouldmeet with you, I will trust you, which is actually very wide criteria,but I think probably everyone has their own. Martin Copeleman, thunder initiatorof the circle's project, still really active with it, likes to say it'swould you pay someone's universal basic income? So, because you're accepting the tokensof the people you trusted one to one ratio, you could frame it asyou know, you're sort of paying them or floating their their tokens sung ability, with your own. So what is what's a human language? Way?If they if I so, if I trust someone, am I making assumptionsabout their like that the trust that they're willing to extend to other people,or perhaps like their, you know, ability to to discern who's trustworthy aswell. Let's see, it's if someone had if you trust someone who hasno other trust connections. Tokens are spent transitively. It's pretty important concept forthe circle's system. So say I trust Alice and Alice Trust Bob, butI've never met Bob. Bob Doesn't trust me, I don't trust him,but Bob Wants to buy my sofa. Bob Can send his coins to Aliceand Alice can send her coins to me so we can pass them through thetrust network and went. So if we did that, BOB would effectively payme for the SOFA, but he do it through Alice and that would meanthat every person in the path of that transaction only ends up with tokens thatthey trust. So from that, if I trust someone and nobody trust themand I accept their tokens, I might have a hard time spending them becauseI can't pass them on from any future trust pass. So you do sortof want to think about you want to, I think strategically, I would aimto trust people who you foresee being active, both in building a trustgraph and in using circles, but especially in the early days. You know, it's very difficult to predict that. I've been I've been trusting people justwho I want to see join and I hope will be excited about it.Yeah, absolutely, but it dies. You can't like get hurt necessarily likelike like, if someone has trusted someone else is trusted, a fake accountthat you trust, you're not going to end up with those fake coins.Right. It could be that if this person maybe is bad at discerning whothey should or should not trust, then their own tokens will become somewhat lesstrusted because they're ending up with money that's not with other people's money that's notworthwhile or work or valuable. But generally it's not a huge risk. Itsounds like it's like a one hook risk really, so one hok risk anotherpops out is less less concerning. Yeah, there was. There was some debate. I saw, you know. That's so Damn Finley for MED andmask was arguing for a very high bar. Neuron from the Pan valid project wassaying maybe in the future you should be really careful. But, andI think I like this argument, just it's just getting off the ground.Circles, we had nobody as any idea with circles are worth right now.Why not just like? I'd rather just see the network flourish and just trustwhoever and and you can prune that back if circles become really valuable and youwant to be more careful about it in the future, but let's boot strapit for the time being. Yeah, that's it's kind of interesting debate andI really like neurons point too, because it kind of takes into account themonetary system and of circles, which is minting coins to every every every tokenmince itself as a function of time, and the rate of which is mintedactually inflates annually. So the amount that...

...you can have stolen from you islike less now than it ever will be. It's really quite low if you takea long term view of the circle's monetary system. Yeah, great,Jay, I guess you know jumping off on that point. What ECO economicmodel do you consider the circle's UPI to fall under? Are there any sortof parallels that people kind of can draw from? HMM, the closest projectto circles the closest. So I'm not expert on on monetary systems or MONTERYtheory. First off, disclaimer. The closest parallel system that's functional is calledUNITOR. It's based in France. It's also a blockchain project and it hasvery, very similar parameters, so it's issue to every account that's sort ofwithin a strong set. It also uses a web of trust for identifying accountsand it is also inflating every year. Another example that I think is mayberelated is called the miracle of warble colloquially. So it's a project or an outsort of currency that existed in, I think, Germany or Austria duringthe Great Depression, and it was a demoage currency. So currency that wasissued today had its value had, say next week. And it's interesting andinteresting sort of historical moment because the town that implemented this town currency experienced fewereconomic hardships during the depression. So those are those are two like fairly similarones, but they're both a bit small. I can't think of an example ata state level that has has happened. I would say circles borrows from morefrom the world of modern monetary theory than sort of commodity money or,you know money monetary systems which are tied to a specific resource. Yeah,I mean in in the case of modern monetary theory. I mean not assumingthat you're an expert on economic models. Do you feel this? This nicelyfits in with that, because I feel that a lot of different people havedifferent perspectives on what that would look like. Personally, I don't know that currentKeynesian thinking really bodes well for MMT, just because there isn't an incentive todrive up of wages. HMM. I I think that you are moreexperienced in the world of monetary theory than me based on the question. Thereason I pulled in the reference of modern monetary theory is my understanding that itdoesn't hold that money and the quantity of money being printed or issued has tobe tied to some our art of outstart are outside limited resource in circles.Actually, you could argue that it is. It's tied to identities and it's tiedto human time, but it's not tied to GDP or, you know, gold or a resource that way. Yeah, does that? Does thatadd the clarification in terms of what circles will do? Two wages to speakto that? I have no idea in the world of I see circles asan experiment. It's a monetary system that is, as far as I know, quite unique and it deserves to get tried. We deserve as a civilization, to collect some data about it this. So I think of like the historyof universal basic income pilots. There and and in the universal basic incomecommunity there's a ton of to speak about.

What will happen to wages. Ithink actually there's a good chance that they might go down. If youcan imagine maybe if everyone is receiving a basic income, they might not bemotivated to take jobs. But also, in order to provide benefit, jobsmight not need to pay as much per hour. So I think it's it'snot. It's not clear to me. I will be very curious and Ithink that it's not. Circles rolling out to enough people where we can reallyanswer a question like that is also, you know, speculative. That's fair. I mean I think you know a bunch of things that maybe fall intowhat could be an mt net is good. And yet decoupling, I mean Ithink part of the problem is GDP is so tied with with people's ownearnings and their ability to churn, and thus wage stagnation is just natural.It sounds like this. More D couples from wage in a way that it'smore based on individual participation and ultimate growth of these network graphs also then tieto overall I guess, the parallel being GDP in this case. Yeah,it's tied to embeddedness within communities. I think just you know, maybe thisis not maybe a normal monetary conversation reference, but sometimes I also explain circles asbeing an attempt to scale up a premodern gift economy actually. So youknow, I receive, by virtue of my embeddedness in a community, mythe that people know me as an individual. But we now live in such largecommunities where it's you can't manage that and one human brain. So insome ways I feel like that that might be the most analogous historical example.I think maybe one way of Putty is just to me it feels like it'sit's monetizing trust and the the ties between people, and so there's a night. A Nice Story to tell is that it incentivizes people to trust each orto identify people they can trust more and and develop relationships that that they thatthey can put stock in and to value the currency that tries to tie themtogether. Yes, no, yeah, definitely. And you know, wetalked a lot about in circles team like types of labor that aren't wealth seenin our current economic system, and I think definitely like the work of maintainingsocial ties is one of them. It's so, so important, this workof caring for others, but it's only in some cases monetizable and sometimes invisible. So that's something that we're curious about. I think it also maybe they're saying, when we talk about circles and the sort of broader economy it mightexist within like a state, that I don't know if I see circles likelyto be the only monetary system in any place. I think that it maybewill serve best. Is a pet theory because of course in practice none ofthis has happened, but I think I see it working best is sort ofan alternative or a coexisting with the Fiat currencies were all more familiar with andthe other cryptocurrencies. HMM, complimentary. So I didn't city of monetary systems. Yes, yeah, that makes sense. It's seems like a more resilient approachthan then a monoculture of currencies. Why don't you tell us about thelaunch a little bit and how it's gone so far? I think it's maybebeen two weeks since started hearing about it on twitter. Yeah, coming upjust over two weeks. Well, it was crazy within and I want kindof apologies to anyone hearing this who was unable to use circles for some periodof time. Within like six or seven hours, it was our servers weretotally down and we had we had launched...

...on like a geothermally powered server inIceland, which has like no tools for scaling whatsoever. So we, youknow, we're really had to. We had to set up a new andbigger or server like manually from top to bottom, and I think we likewe managed to as fast as we can, but we're actually still working on likea proper transition that we envission to an environment that can scale as itneeds to with demand. So we're still dealing with the just from time totime. It was, it was. What do I keep saying to people? I keep saying I'm sure will be really happy about the launch. Bunchof stopped being stressed out by it. So what does that look like interms of like user activity? And Yeah, pulled it up just just as wegot on, before we started recording, and we have just over US sixtytwo thousand five hundred deployed accounts. Wow, so I'm a presumably manymore who are still waiting to successfully deploy. For those supermer of sign up forcircles you through our interface. You need three tress connections before you canenter the system. If you are inclined to interact with this more contracts directly, you can, of course sign up immediately. So there's there's probably somepool of people still waiting to be verified through the UI. So yeah,that's that's that's the current state of it. Probably about Tenzero of those where evenin the first forty eight hours. Luckily, growth has tapered off andwe all now sleep through the night. That's nice. Yeah, it feelsto me like I think I was so excited about because it felt really refreshing. I mean, I my sense is that there was some of the momentumwas like people recognizing another kind of like almost like a yield farming opportunity andthe sense of that if you get in earlier, you'll start printing your owntokens a bit earlier. This doesn't really make that much of a difference,though, does it? Like like what, when I join and I start trustingpeople and trusting other people, how many sort of how many tokens amI getting and how is the minting function? Yeah, so everyone right now isgetting eight per day, about a two hundred and forty per month,and so it at eight per day. The advantage of getting it early isvery small, but the community of people from crypto twitter, for example,are familiar with very different get in early mechanics and I think that spurred partof it. It's like waiting a couple days with the surfers to come backup. Is Really not, you know, a barrier. And even still,I think there's another misunderstanding, has been that circles is a speculative asset, because I really suspect it never will be, because it's tied to individualidentities. So there's no point in the purchasing circles without knowing whose circles I'mpurchasing. But I think that's a lot of misunderstanding. So it's both speculativeand inflation happens, sort of accelerates later, kind of thing. Yeah, inflationis happening at seven percent per year and it's compounding. So you saideight per day. Does that? Does that change or is that consistent forever? It'll change. Next year it'll be eight times one point zero seven.Okay, yeah, and and then the next year that will compound again.So so yeah, it's sounds it's really a system where the circles you getnow will be dwarfed by the circles you are getting at a later date.And the the the that that mechanism has, the property that I've kind of talkedabout when I said it de disincentivizes boarding and it does something likely distributingwealth in a way. So you can imagine, you know, to usetotally fake numbers. If you sign up today, John, and the circlesare issued at five, five a day. So you know, the day goesby, you have five circles and say there's a hundred percent inflation everyday, just to make it really obvious.

So I sign up the next day. So you have five and I have zero, but another day goesby and it inflates, so you get ten, you have fifteen and Ihave ten, and then you know, it's just continues. At first,though, the difference between our accounts will stay at five. The relative differencebetween how much you have and how much I have is going to go downover time, the longer we stay in the system. So that's the the, the the the universal basic income, the most universal basic can come likeproperty of circles, and it's really it's the opposite of get in early.Is pays off. Yeah, fun fact circles has been a fake circles tokenhas been listed on you to swap with selling at eighty dollars. Hopefully notto too many people. So that's the extent of the like like fervor thatdoesn't really understand circles. Yeah, it'd be interesting to see what the volumeis on the Oh we posted. We posted like please don't buy it.I hope people saw. Yeah, so, so this is all running on onx die. It'd be really may be great to hear about like howyou chose x, what what Xi is for people and and also why youchose that chain, or layer two to for your project. Yeah, forsure. So, yeah, x day is a etherium side chain that usesdie Xti as its native token. It also has this really nice property.It's POAA, mind, proof of authority mind, and the people who aredoing the mining have agreed to keep the gas prices at one goy. Whoknows? This is, of course, a human agreement. It might fallapart, but for now they are and we was really important for circles tobe accessible to non crypto native users, and for us one of the requirementswas there for that was that we relay transactions. So we are paying people'stransactions these and it would be nice to launch on mainet etherium, but givenwhat's happened with gas, keyes, especially over the last year. We don'tthink it's financially sustainable for our team. It's the biggest reason we're on xdie of the various side chains and lear too slowly. The infrastructure for Extiseemed pretty stable. You know, public nodes, the graph is compatible withit. Bunch of you know block. It doesn't block as well. Allof the things were sort of in place to use it, whereas some ofthe other side chains that be considered were a lot earlier and we weren't assure about how the support would be. And this being good Jate, I'lljust record the overtalk at that point. Sorry. So you mentioned UX beinga little bit easier for, I guess, non crypto enthusiasts. I like whenpeople consider that design in mind. So I imagine it's less dependent on, say, a wallet first and then it's sort of a kind of awalled out. I'm not sure I understand the in terms of in terms ofthe UX of it. Is it you need to make sure that you havea metamask installed first, or is it something that it's inheriting the Ux andthen when you're looking, when you're ready to leave the system, then itprovides a way to do that exactly. Think it's exactly. I think it'syou're describing. There's no Meta mask, there's no wallet. It uses whatis this is kind of it's one of the interesting things about the the UXchoices that circles made is that actually, people who are deeply integrated into cryptocommunitiesoften don't like it because to them it feels really insecure and unsafe. So, yeah, it uses a fairly disposable burner key and that key is anowner of the notice is safe. So if someone, as someone might becomemore cryptnative, they can add a p created otherwise to be an owner.If they're safe. I think I actually might be already compatible. But theSAFE UI is compatible the circles so that...

I can that is alternative, analternate way to interact. But are APP you know you don't. It doesn'teven tell you you're using a blockchain. Honestly, you don't see an addressanywhere except in your profile link. And Yeah, all of these things arevery pushed, pushed away. I think for most users that's the better wayto go, to be honest. For a lot of especially for a lotof users. Yeah, a lot of video games use that. I thinkit makes it easier for people. So I guess if it's more if there'ssort of less, you wax barriers for people than how does it avoid thehow does a user avoid the social dilemma of the so called Myspace top eight? I have all the people I trust, but people still want to connect thepeople I connect do not think I trust them enough. I may nothave enough of their tokens yet. And going from there. Yeah, well, this is then a hotly debated subject in this team. Actually like whatwe visualize and how, because it is all public and this is an exposedin the Ui right now. But Trust is weighted, so you know ifyou don't trust someone back. Is it visualized? Is it you know?Will someone make a viewer someday where we get all see everybody's follower accounts oncircles? I don't really know. But we've taken the strategy of not makingit super visible. You can see who trusts you and who trust you back. The weights are well of upcoming feature. But yeah, so, so rightnow, when you log in you do see a list of people whoare in your immediate trusts are but it's not the people who's tokens you holdmost or the people you trust the most. It's just the people who you've interactedwith most recently. Yeah, but but whether the I think I'd beimpossible for those, those tough questions to not come into play at some point. They were there. We're already so familiar with them, with social media. So so, just so I understand, is that is just like almost likethe negative side being popular that we're talking about, where I just Ifeel pressure to to accept everybody's request to trust them and sort of yet notfeeling comfortable turning them down. I think that's part of it and I thinkthere's this is like a known sort of issue with web of trust primitives andthe the PDP protocol. If you're like fully following the key signing protocol,I think you're supposed to collect all the proofs and then go home and dothe trusting so that no one you're not like confronting anyone when you're refusing totrust them. You could just like ghost basically. So with circles, maybethese things will have to come up at some point. They're not unfamiliar questions, though. Like you know, I got follow by someone I worked within high school, but I didn't follow them back. I'm familiar with navigatingthat guilt, as I'm sure most are. So in a way it sort ofdisincentivizes trying to get so many friends, whereas traditional social media does the opposite, for reasons we are all well too familiar with. Yeah, Iwould say that definitely trust in circles is a riskier operation than what we're familiarwith, from what we've been trained in, really from social media use. That'sinteresting because I almost see that as a downward pressure on overall potential supply, which is a good thing. So kind of limits over supply because itit dilutes your did it died, it delight, dilutes your tokens. Essentially, you can definitely end up with a system where you have tokens that areexpendable because the amount of people who trust you is fewer than the supply ofTokens that you have. So, yeah,...

...exactly possible. Yeah, it's ait's also one of the things that I would really like to see.The way to trust get surfaced in the Ui because, especially in these earlydays of circles, there is it'd be really nice to be able to helppeople join by giving them a lower rate. I'm not sure we've talked at weightedtrust yet. Maybe we have and I missed it, but I thinkwe didn't. You and I DM each other about it, okay, butit's so we've transitive transactions. You can imagine that they're the people all inthe middle of the transitive chain are aware that they're going on. So youcould wake up one night and find that one has happened. So trust limitsare way to limit the amount of your coins that can be spent transitively and, as I said, I'm on twitter. You know, a direct on DM, the a direct a direct transfer like we're familiar with in the arctwenty world, is always possible, but these transitive ones are are limited.And so if I trust you right now, the default is fifty percent. Itmeans I'm willing to exchange fifty percent of my coins. I don't wantto one rate with yours, but you could imagine if I wanted to helpyou get on boarded but I wasn't sure I trust you, I could setthat at ten and then the likelihood the amount of your coins I might wakeup with tomorrow is going to be a lot less but you know, ifwe were very close, I might also set it to a hundred, whichyou know. So that's saying if I have, if I have a hundredJohn Tokens, and somebody wants to buy a couch from somebody who trust me, a friend of yours lay like I, it could be that if I trustyou one hundred percent, then I might end up with a hundred SarahTokens in this transaction and but then my hundred John Tokens have been forwarded onto the then the seller of this couch. It's that correct? Yep, exactly. But currently, you're saying, did you say that? That thetrust? Because in the Ui it's a binary right. I trust you orI do not trust you, and you don't really get to set the waitingit's currently the UI is setting it to fifty percent. Is that correct?Yeah, exactly. Hmm, I see right now there are a number offeatures that the contracts enable that are not rolled out in the Ui for reasonsof limiting scope so that you actually watch some day. But I think thosethings, that those will the plan is to roll those things out over time. I think it makes so much sense. Like if, even if just havingto. I think people are already certainly to navigate the WHO do Itrust? What are the implications of trust? Have adding the friction of and howmuch do I you know, what score do I give this person?I think would really have pampered the uptake, but it'd be awesome to hear aboutwhat some of those like, what some of the things that are inthe contracts that aren't currently in the in the Ui itself are, as wellas maybe some things that could have been in the contracts but would have beeninteresting functionality for a UBI system it's itself. Yeah, oh well, we wehave. Maybe our most hotly debated feature that did not get in therewas limiting the amount of trust you can give to like really make trust scarce. So like you can only trust a maximum of like a hundred people.Dounit or a project that's very, very similar to circles. If you're afan of circles, you should also investigate donor, don or, don itor, yeah, Du iteer. Okay, so yeah, it's they live atrust to a hundred people. We eventually did not do it, butI had a really crazy moment like three days for we're supposed to latch thecontracts, which is like maybe I should just add it but turn it off. But if someone wants to like fork circles someday, the code'll already bethere. And I was like no, stock Togor the contract, you're supposedto shift them. So yeah, that's that didn't make it in. Featuresthat are upcoming, though, are adding and managing owners of your nurse safe, which I think is a really important one. It's a better pattern forusing circles on two devices than entering your mnemonic on the seecond device, whichis the only way to do it now.

We people are definitely going to wantcircles on mobiles, of point of payment. So that and then alsoyou can imagine adding like your more secure wallet as well. We have afeature for organizations to sign up or businesses to sign up, which is toenter an account into the trust graph that doesn't receive a token because, youknow, your local coffee shop doesn't meet the universal basic income like actually,like in a more correct world of the trust graph, you shouldn't trust peoplethat aren't people, and the people add the coffee stop should just be gettingthe UBI through circles themselves, not this conglomoration of people. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And then, especially for a business, managing the the thepeople who have keys for it. Again, those two are tied. And then, I guess, the final thing. Oh, two other things that aren'tenabled, just to listen all all the things we didn't do. WayTo trust, which, like you said, I agree with be refusing for theaverage user circles, but I think, you know, somewhere in the likeadvanced settings it should I think it would be really good to have.And also, I think, an ability to override the transitive and send directlyin a onetime payment case. So that would be like I see something ona circle's version of craigslist that I want to buy, but there's some actuallyno trust path between me and this person. But they look at my account,they meet me, they talk to me, the Google me and theyfind me on some other website. They're like, I'm pretty sure you're realand I can see, I can I can see that you're embedded in atrust graph that is not too far away from mine. I'll accept your coinsthis one time. So I think that would also be a really nice featuredroll out. Nice. Okay, Jay, do you have any any questions rightnow? I think pretty much covered all the things. It's seems likea really interesting project. I saw it a little bit on crypto twitter.I hadn't not a chance to really take a look into it, but I'mcertainly going to now. So very, very interesting. Yeah, thanks.I'm happy to, you know, ramble about it to Y'all and I thinkit's you know, one of the things that we've talked about for circles,let's see if it happens, because it has a longer timeline, is tosort of publish what happens, you know, how how this project goes, whatwe hear from our users, how we see it used in different placesafter, you know, it's been out for a while. So I thinkthat maybe viewers, you listeners of this podcast can may be chicken with usin the years. So also to have some of the answers to the questionsthat I just can't answer yet with anything but speculation. Yeah, they'd begreat. I'll put on the calendar. Oh Man, Oh man, holdme to it. Yeah, I'll just you know, just roup I'll.I just want to say like it is one of the first projects that Ifelt I could tell my normal friends about that was like relative into them andand that they could fairly easily understand and wasn't totally Eso chaeric and didn't havelike seven layers of dependencies that I would have to explain to them before theycould see the utility of it. So I'm very I'm very excited about andbullishit about it. I feel like I can you be saying Polish, thisis not the context. But but if not circles, perhaps somebody else,like something will, will take the lessons from circles and make something really specialhappens. So that's always been my hope and if that person is listening,the first thing I would say is get us over this like six times biggerthan you think you need. But yeah, I agree. Like you know,circles may not live, but maybe the things that are container than itcan beat you some day by another project, though I of course hope that ourproject does live and it is adopted by both crypto familiar people and peoplewho have no idea what crypto is. That would be a real circle successfor me for sure. Okay, Sarah Strap Up, where can people findout more about circles and follow you if...

...they'd like to yeah, so theproject is circles UBI. That's the twitter handle as well, circles CBI orcircle Zoobi, and then the the website right now is join circles dot met, which has a bit of a quick overview of the project. And Iam Sarah Friend and that is is this an art on twitter? Excellent.Okay, thank you so much for joining us. Thank you so much.Yeah, thank go for chatting and have a good that's a good day.

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