Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 97 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out # 97- CirclesUBI- Sarah Friend

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Sarah Friend is one of two developers working on Circles UBI. Circles is a
basic income project that seeks to build local economic communities. 

Links:CirclesUBI

Links: Sarah Friend

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Hey, what's up so avalanche, let's talkabout it! Lit'Sten Avalanche! The snow comes down real, fast, fierce gamesmomentum, but I'm not talking about the natural disaster or I it's not reallydisaster iguess of no one's aroung but anyway avalanche. What is it you've heardabout it now, Yo getting here some more? It's an open source platform,volaunching DYCENTRALIZED FINANCE APPLICATIONS RIGHT DIFA! That's what your want developers who build on avalanche caneasily create powerful, reliable, secure applications and customblockchain networks with complex rule sets or build an existing private orpublic subnet right. I think what you should do right now is stop what you'redoing, even if it's listening to this podcast stop pool over go to the gayation. If you need to go to a subway, there's a subway like everywhere,there's always a subway all right right, there's always a croger just stopin aparking lot somewhere go to Avalav, oalab STOT HORK to learn more! All Right! STOP GO TOAVA lab, that's AVA labs labs, DOT, Org! Now, enteme Callin podcastetwork welcome to hashing it out a podcast Werwetalk to the tech innevators behind Blocke in intrastructure anddecentralize networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how peoplebuild this technology the problems they sayis along the way come Listenin andlearn from the best in the business. You can join their recks welcome back to hashing yoa everybodyand your COS for today, John Marlin with also cohost j, Harrol, say hieverbody, Jay Hi everyone to lovely morning, and we have with us today. Sarah friendfrom the circle's EBI project, say Hi Erybod, er, I'Ma betting play yeah, so good to Heaveyou here, so why we start with the the standardbioquestion? How did you get into Crypto? And what are you doing here? Yeah for sure? So I'm here to talk toyou today, because I am one of two developers: Yes onleaue to somehow aproject called circle, CBI that launched on October sixteent and too much more attention than theexpected happily, but also with a fair bit ofsuffering on our parts. Yeah I got into Crypto two thousand andsixteen I used to work with John Actually in transpirency at consensusfor a couple years. Its true we did talk together, we did and I we did and it was. It was a really goodtalk. I think or like I learned a ton putting it together like I'll, neverforget what happened to Rihemdi yeah, maybe we'll bink, to way to this to theLake Wen recordings of the slides in the show notes. So yeah. Why don't you tell us whatcircles you buy? Bi is yeah for sure. So circles is a alternative version of what a universalbasic income could look like. So normally when people say inniversalbasic income, they mean the state redistributing Fiat money, but circles is more like an alternativecurrency, so it has more in common with historical alternative currencies likethe Birston pound or it the cadollars. But it is an alternative currency thatcontains weallfree distribution, insiets mechanisms or maybe a betterray to put that is it d, incentivizes cording, so yeah, it's a it's a community hecommunity currencyproject that is built on right now, the Xi Blok chain. So I think we should probably get into thexdi block chain at some point to, but maybe you can just say so: it's acommunity currency. How does it? How does it work? Yeah? Well, I've jus played circle so many timesthe last two weeks that I'm just like what comes next. You know my brain isscrambling around,...

...but it is so everyone who signs up forcircles actually gets their own token, which is a standard RC twenty token, asDela probablys smo with and theyre also entered into atrustgraph of all of the other circles users. So we, when you said their ownjoken, it's like a personal token right. It is yeah. Okay, it's their own tokencontract. It's Canit stays contained and attached totheir identity, even as it flows through the system. So Yeah H, the sortof personal tokens have been a bit of a like fad or mean lately, like circles,is a network of personal tokens. Okay, that makes sense yeah and Theus I'. Sorry. Are these networktokens in the in this trust network than interoperable Yep? Exactly when, when you're in the showstor work,what you are invetted in the trustmat work, but when you trust someone whatyou're like really doing materially is committing to exchange their token. Theperson you're trusting I dont one to one rat with your own token, and this is kind of how we do the CIPILdefense for circles. It's easy to make an account, but the idea or argument is t at it's muchharder to get actual other people who have real things to exchange to trustyour account. So that's what so. This commitment is signify that you're an individual, Ibelieve so, for example, Li Gif. I have a friend Alic and I trust Alice. I will accept her token, but if shecreates another account, I would probably not be willing to trust thataccount and presumably also less willing to trust her original account. I would oiul, I would suggest I'mtrusting Atlis in that situation, because it means that alice iscollecting to two basic incomes. The argument is that it's actually quite difficult tomaintain sort of parallel identities over any duration of time, and there isresearch about tha the threshold at which it's like almost impossible. Tomaintain that I can't cite it so yeah this is it kind of like it's abit like an immune system. You might imagine of like these fake accounts. Wefind them out and then we start sort of walling them off and they end up beingtheir own little pocket of the network. That's all fick accounts, ND and by the way there is already oneit's kind of funny, like people have definitely written bohts againstcircles, they've done it within the first like week and a half and yeah stanpooles scampls of accounts.So it's like a little mean like if you picture, because its de Graph,essentially right so there's almost like a fork of or not even a fork. Iguess it's an isolated graph, but as long as I'm not trusting it, that's nota problem for me in using circles, yeah exactly it's a form of reputation, networks in a way, then so if you're operating same multipleaccounts, whether maliciously or not, ultimately, the one that you're mostpublic with your public trust graph, I guess which is really between people to people, isincorporated into that that one profile yeah yeah so w the trescraft is all on Chan andit is all public okay. So so right, that's a good point. So you are, I mean with any typicalblockchain like all of this is probably visible, including your relationshipsand who you trust, yeah. Exactly if you don't trust yourfriends back. Not only do they know, but the world knows, but I think this is something thatblock like people in the botshing community are very familiar with, thattheir transactions are visible on the block chain, though maybe it's not as understood a as clearly asit could be in all quarters, but it's definitelysomething that is unfamiliar when you're talking with non cripdomativefolks. So I like to try tha, make it clear, yeah, okay, yeah, so so what? Under what circumstances? Or what are the factors that someoneshould take into account when deciding whether or not to trust someone theree being a lot of people postingtheir links on twitter, pinging people directly saying hey? Canyou trust me what you need to...

...to consider? What are the implicationsof excenting, your trust, Os, someone in circles yeah, the the heuristic we say is if you knowsomeone in real life- and I don't necessarily need in person, because I think that real life can be online as well. But if you, if you knowsomeone my personal heristic has been like. IfI would accept a lunch meet with you, I will trust you, which is actually very wide criteria, but I think probably everyonehas their own Martin, Cocelman, thunder initiator of the circles. Project still really active with it likes to say it's. Would you paysomeone's universal basic income so because you're accepting the tokens of the people youtrusted want to one ractio? You could frame it as you know, you're sort ofpaying them ore floating their their tokens suntibility with your own. So what is at Ike human language way if they, if I so? If I trust someone am I making assumptions about their like that, the trust that they'rewilling to extend to other people or perhaps like their you know, ability to discern who'strustworthy as well. Let's see it's if someone Hav, if you trust someonewho has no other trust connections, tokens are spent transitively ins, prettyimportant concept for the circles system, so say I trustto Alice and Alice trest Bob, but I've never met Bob Bob. Doesn't trust me, I don't trusthim, but Bob Wants to buy my Silva Bob can send his coins to Alice thanAlence can send her acquointance to me, so we can pass them through the trustpetwork and what so, if we did, that Bob wouldeffectively pay me for the Sofa but hed do it through Alice, and that would mean that every personin the path of that transaction only ends up with tokens that they trust. So from that. If I trust someone andnobody trust them and I accepte their tokens, I might have a hard timespending them, because I can't pass them on from any future trescass. So you do sort of want to think about youwant to, I think strategically. I would aim to trust people who you foreseenbeing active both in building a trust graph and in using circles, but especially in the early days. Youknow it's very difficult to predict that I've been I've been trestingpeople just who I want to see, join and I hope will be excited about it. Yeah Butit d. You can't like get hurtnecessarily like like. If someone his trusted,someone else is trusted o fake account that you trust you're not going to endup with those fate coints right. So it could be that if this person, maybe isbad at discerning who they should or should not trust, then their own tokenswill become somewhat less trusted because they'reending up with money, that's not with other people's money, that's notworthwhile or work or valuable, but generally it's not a Hutriss. It soundslike it's like a one. Hot Risk really soundson opers. Another ohop out is less less.Concerning yeah there was. There was some debate. I Sawt you know that sodamn Finley for Meada mask was arguing for a very high bar near on from the Panvala project wassaying maybe in the future. You should be really careful, but- and I think Ilike this argument- just it's just getting off the ground circles we had.Nobody has any idea what circles are worth right now. Why not just like I'drather just see the network flourish and just trust, whoever and and you canprune that back. If circles become really valuable and you want to be morecareful about it in the future, but let's boot strap it for the time being. Yeah, that's it's kind of aninteresting debate and I really like Maran's point too, because it kind oftakes into account the monetary system of circles which is minting coins toevery every every token mints itself as a function of time and the rate atwhich is minted actually inflates...

...annually. So the amount that you can have stolenfrom you is like less now than it ever will be, and it's really quite low. If you takea long term view of the circles- monetary system, Great Jay, I guess you know jumping off on that point. What ECOeconomic model do you consider the circles Pi to fall under? Are there any sort of parallels that people kind of can draw from the closest project to circles theclosest O, I'm not expert on on Monetary Systems and montary theory?First off disclaimer, the closest parallel system, thats functional, iscalled Dunitor. It's based in France Om. It's also a blockcain project and it has very, very similarparameters. So it's issued to every account that's sort of within a strongset. It Alvoy Eves, a love of trust for identifying accounts, and it is also infleting every year. Another example that I think is mayberelated is called the the miracle of Worbal Colliquali, so it's a project oranosortof of currency that existed in, I think Germany or Austria during the Great Depression, and it was a demerage currency, so currency thatwas issued today had its value have sayg next week and it's interesting an interestingsort of historical moment, because the town that, if litted this town currency,experienced fewer economic hardships during the depression, so those are those are twolike fairly similar ones because both of bit small, I can't think of an example at astate level that has has happened. I would say: Circles Borrows from more from the world of MOT, modernmonetary theory, then sort of commodity money, or you know, money, monetary systems whichare tied to a specific resource. Yeah I mean in in a case of modern monetary theory. Imean not assuming that you're an expert oneconomic models. Do you feel this this nicely fits inwith that, because I feel that a lot of different people have differentperspectives on what that would look like. Personally, I don't know that currentCanasian thinking really bodes well for MMT, just because there isn't anincentive to drive up of wages. Think that you are more experienced inthe world of monetary theory to me. Based on the question. The reason Ipulled in the reference of what a monetary theory is, my understandingthat it does 't hold that money and the quantity of money beingfrintetor issued has to be tied to some rrtof outrour outside limitedresource in circles. Actually, you could arguethat it is it's tied to identities and it's tied to human time, but it's not tied to GDP or you know gold or resource that way. Yeah does that? Does that ad? Theclarification in terms of what circles will do to wages. To speak to that, I have no idea in the world of I see circles as anexperiment. It's a monetary system that is, as far as I know, quite unique, and it deserves to get tried. Wedeserve as a civilization to collect some data about about oftis, so I think of like the history ofuniversal basic and compilots there and in the universal basic incomecommunity, there's a ton of dispit...

...about what will happen to wages. I think actually there's a good chancethat they might go down. If you can imagine, maybe if everyone is receiving ABASIC income, they might not bemotivated to take jobs, but also in order to provide benefit. JOHBSmight not need to pay as much per hour. So I I think it's it's not it's not clear to me. I wouldbe very curious and I think that it's not circles rolling out to enough peoplewhere we can really answer a question like that is also you know. Speculative, that's fair. I mean, I think you knowbunch of things that maybe fall into what could be nmt net is good, and yet decoupling I mean, I think partof the problem is GDP is so tied with with people's earn earnings and theirability to churn, and thus wage dagnation is just natural. It soundslike this more dcouples from wage, in a way that it's more based on individual participation and ultimategrowth of these network graphs. Also, then tie to overall, I guess, theparallel being GDP in this case yeah it's tide to invetiveness within communities. Ithink just you know y. This is not maybe a normal mometary conversationreference, but sometimes I also explain circles as being an attempt to scale upa premodern gift economy. Actually, so you know I receive by virtue of myabetoiss in Ta community. My that people know me is an individual, but we now live in such largecommunities where it's. You can't manage that and one human brain. So in some ways I feel like that. Thatmight be the most analogous a historical example. I think maybe one way o putting is just to me. Itfeels like it's. It's monetizing trust and the tiesbetween people and so there's a night. A Nice Story to tellis that it incentivizes people to trust each or to identify people. They cantrust more and and develop relationships that that they that they can put stock inandto value. The currency that tries to tie them together is no yeah. Definitely, and you know,we talk a lot about in circles. Team like types of Labor that aren't wellseen in our current economic system, and I think,definitely like the work of maintaining Social Tis is one of them. It's so soimportant, this work of caring for others, but it's only in some cases, monetizable andsometimes invisible. So so that's something that we'recurious about. I think it also maybe theyr saying when we talk about circlesand sort of Brouder econmy, it might exist within, like a state that I go now with FIC circles, likely to bethe only monetary system in any place. I think that it maybe will serve bestas a pet theory, because of course, in practice not of this has happened, but I think I see it. Working best is sortof an unalternative or co existing with ththe tea currencies were all morefamiliar with and the other crypicurrencies a complimentary. So I diose city ofmonetary systems, yes ohyeah, that makes sense. It's seems like a moreresilient approach than then a amonoculture of currencies. Why don't you tell us about the launcha little bit and how it's gone so far? I think it'smaybe been two weeks since started hearing about it on twitter yeah coming up just over two weeks. Well, it was crazy within and I want kind of poapologiesto anyone. Hearing this who was unable to use circles for some period of time within like six or seven hours, it wasour our servers were totally down...

...and we had. We had launched on like a Geo fermilypower edserver in Iceland, which has like no tools for scaling whatsoever, so we you know were really had to. Wehad to set up a new and bigger server like manually from top to bottom, and I think we like, we managed I asfast as we can, but we're actually still working on like e propertransition that we envision to an environment that can scale as it needsto with demand, so we're still dealing with anages fom time to time it was. It was. What do I keep saying to people? I keepsaying I'm sure Wi'll be really happy about the launch. WHUCH has stoppedbeing stressed out by it. So what does that look like in terms oflike user activity and yeah? I fild it up just just as we got on before we startedrecording and we have just over. Sixty two thousand five hundred deployedaccounts wo so andpresumably many more who are stillwaiting to successfully deploy for this sutof. My ors signed up for circles you through our interface. You need threetrust connections before you can enter the system. If you are inclined tointeract with thise mart contract directly, you can of course, sign upimmediately, so there's there's, probably some poolof people still waiting to be verified through Theui, so yeah, that's, that's! That's thecurrent state of it probably about ten thosand of thosewere Yovin in the first forty eight hours, wluckily growth is tapered off and weall now sleep through the night. That's nice yeah. It feels to me like.I think I was so excited about, because it feltreally refreshing. I mean I. my sense is that there was some. Some of the momentum was like people recognizinganother kind of like almost like a yield farming opportunity and the senseof that, if you get in earlier you'll start printing your own tokens a bitearlier. This doesn't really make that much of a difference, though, does itlike like what when I join- and I start trusting people and trusting otherpeople, how many? How many tokens am I gettingand how is the minting function yeah, so everyone right now as gettingeigt per day about two hundred and forty per month, so it add eight per day. The advantage of getting it early is very small, but the community of peoplefrom cyrpto twitter, for example, are familiar with very different, get inearly mechanics and I think that's tird part of it. It's like wait, Agai coupledays for the servece to come back up I's. Really, not you know a Varrier,and even still, I think, there's another misunderstanding has been thatcircles is a speculative aucet because I really suspect it never will bebecause it's time to individual identities. So there's no point in me purchasing theirgoals without knowing whose circles I'm purchasing, but I think that' Wat to a lot ofmisunderstanding. So it's both speculative and inflation happens, sort of accelerates later kind of thing. Yeah inflation is happening at seven percent per year and it'scompouding. So you said eight per day. Does thatdoes that change, or is that consistent forever it'll change next year? It'llbe eight times one point: Zeo, seven, okay,yeah and, and then the next year that will compoud again so so so yeah it sound. It's really asystem where the circles you get now will be dwarfed by the circles. You aregetting at a later date and the he that that mechanism has the propertythat I've kind of talked about. When I said it do disincentivizeis hoarding and it does something likelydistributing wealth in a way. So you can imagine you know to use totallyfake numbers if you sign up today, John and the circles are issued at fivefive a day. So you know the dig Gos by you, havefive circles and SI is a Hundredsat...

...infulation every day just to make it really obvious. So I signe up the next day, so you havefive and I have zero, but another day goes by and it inflates. So you get ten, youhave fifteen and I have ten and then you know it's. This continues thatfirst, though, the difference between ouraccounts will stay at five, the relative difference between how muchyou have and how much I have it's going to go down overtime, the longer we stayof the system. So that's t the ththe, the universal basic income, themost universal basic can come like property of circles, and it's reallyit's the opposite of getting early is pays off. Yeah Fun, fax circles has been a fikecircles. Token has been listed on Youtoh WAP, wer selling it eighty dollars, hopefully not to too many people. Sothat's the extent of the like, like fervor, that doesn't really understand.Ter both yeah it'd be interesting to see whatthe volume is on that we posted we posted like, please don'tbuy it. I hope people stoff yeah, so so this is all running on on Xdi it'd be really Itd, be great to hearabout like how you chose Xwhat. What Xi is for people and and also why youchose that chain for later to to for your project, yeah for sure so, yeah extay is a atherinside train that uses Diexi as its native token. It also hasthis really nice property, it's Poi, amind profin authority, mind and the people who are doing the mininghave agreed to keep the gas prices it. One Way who knows this is of course, humanagreement. It might fall apart, but for now they are- and we was reallyimportant for circles to be accessible to non crypto native users and for us one of the requirements wasthere, for that was that we rer lay transactions. So we are paying peoplestrains actualties, and it would be nice to watch on mainatetherium, but givein. What's happened with Gaskis, especially over the lastyear, a we don't think it's finantially sustainable for our team. It's thebiggest reason we're on Xdi of the various sidechains and lar twosolutions. The IFRASTRUCTURE for xti seemed pretty stable. You know public nodes, the graph is compatible with it. Bunch of you know, block it doesn't block, iswhat all of the things were sort of in place to use it, whereas some of the other sunchains that be considered werea lot earlier. Thand we weren't as sure about how the support would be, and this Bein good ja I'll just record the overtalk.At that point sorry, so you mentioned UX being a little biteasier for, I guess non crypto enthusiasts I like, when peopleconsider that design in mind. So I imagine it's less dependent on say a walletfirst and then it's sort of a kind of a wal out. I'm not sure I understand the in termsof in terms of the UX of it is it you needto make sure that you have a metamask installed first, or is itsomething that it's inheriting the the Ux and then when you're? Looking whenyou're ready to leave the system, then it provides a way to do that. Iexactly exact, I exactly, I think, isyou're describing there's no metamask, there's no wallet it uses. What is this is kind of one of the interestingthings about the UX choices. That circles made. Is that actually peoplewho are deeply integrated into CRYPTOC communities? Often don't like it,because to them it feels really insecure and unsafe. So yeah it uses a fairly disposablevernarky and that key is an owner of a nosissafe. So if someone as someone might becomemore cripdonative, they can add a p created otherwise to be an owner ofthey're safe. I think I actually might be already compatible, but the safey iyis compatible the circles...

...so Taton. That is a Alterat, anilternate way to interact, but our AP, you know you, don't it doesn't eventell you you're using a blutchain honestly, you don't see it addressanywhere, except in your profile link and yeah. All of these things are verypushed pushed away. I think for most users, that's thebetter way to go to be honest for a lot of, especially for a lot ofusers. Yeah. A lot of video games use that Ithink T it makes it easier for people. So I guess, if it's more, if there's sort of less uxperriers for people, then how does it avoid the? How does Ha user avoid the socialdilemma of the so called my space top eight? I have all the people, I trust, butpeople still want to connect the people I connect do not think Itrust them enough. I may not have enough of their tokens yet in goingfrom there yeah. This has been a hotly debated subjectin this team, actually like what we visualize and how, because it is all public and this isn'texposed in the Ui right now, but trust is waited. So you know, if you don't trust, themone back isitisualized. Is it you know? Will someone make aviewer someday where we cout all Sey? Everybody's follower counts on circles? I don't really know, but we've takenthe strategy of not making it super visible. You can see who trusts you and whotrusts you back. The weights are well of upcoming feature but yeah. So so, right now, when you lug inyou just see a list of people who are in your immediate tresticle, but it'snot the people, who's Tok, Ento, you old,most or the people, you trust the most. It's just the people we've interactedwith most recently yeah, but but whether the I think it'dbe impossible for those those tough questions to not come into play at somepoint, Werewe're already so familiar with them with social media. So so just so, I unersayn is that its justlike almost like the negative side of being popular that we're talking aboutwhere I just. I feel pressure to to accept everybody's request to trustthem and sort of yet not not feeling comfortableturning them down. I think that's part of it and I think there's this is like a known sort ofissue with web of trust permittence, an the the PGP protocol. If you're likefully following the keysigning protocol, I think you're supposed to collect allthe proofs and then go home and do the trusting so that no one you're not likeconfronting anyone when you're refusing to trust them. You could just likeghost, basically so with circles. Maybe these things Wiwill have to come up at some point: They're, not unfamiliar questions,though, like you know, I got followd by some of y worked with in high school, but Ididn't follow them back, I'm familiar with apinating that guilt,as I'm sure most are so in a way it's sort ofdisconcentadvises trying to get so many friends, whereas traditional social media doesthe opposite. For you know reasons where we are all well too familiar with yeah. I would say that definitely trustin circles is a riskier operation than what we're familiar with from whatwe've been trained in really from social media use. That's interesting because I almost seethat as a adownward pressure on overall potentialsupply, which is a good thing, so kind oflimits over supply, because it I it dilutes your D Itit deliht, dilutes your tokens.Essentially, you can definitely end up with a systemwhere you have tokens that are 't expendable, because the amount of people who trust you...

...is hewer than the supply of Tokens thatyou have so yeah exactly possible yeah. It's it's also one of the things that I woreally like to see. The way to trust get surfaced in the Y, because,especially in these early days of circles, es be really nice to be ableto help people join by giving them a lower waigte, and I'm not sure we'vetalked bout, weited trust. Yet maybe we have- and I missed it, but Ithink we didn't you and I damned each other about it, but it's so we've transitictransactions. You can imagine that they're, the people all in the middleof the transitive chain aren't aware that they're going on, so you could wake up one night and findthat Ote has happened, so trust libits, aure way to limit the amount of your coins that canbe spent transitively and, as I said on twitter, you know a direct,an NDM. The a direct direct transfer like we're familiar with in the arstwenty world is always possible, but these transitive ones re are limited, and so, if I trust you right now, the devault is fifty percent.It means I'm willing to exchange fifty percent of my coins. I On't want toUngrad with yours, but you could imagine if I wanted tohelp you get on boarded that I wasn't sure I trusted you. I could sed that atten and then the likelihood of the amount of your coins I might wake upwith tomorrow is going to be a lot less. But you know if we were very close, Imight also Seid it to a hundred which you know Soso, that's saying if I have, if Ihave a hundred John Tokens and somebody wants to buy a couch fromsomebody who trust me, a friend of yours like like it could bethat if I trust you one hundred percent,then I might end up with a hundred Carotokians in this transaction and but then my hundred Johnn togenshave been forwarded onto the ten, the celler of this couch thatcorrect yeap. Exactly but currently you're saying. Did you say that thatthe trust, because in the in the Ui it's a binary right? I trust you whereI do not a trust you and you don't really get to set the waiting it'scurrently, the UI is setting it to fifte percent. Is that correct, yeahexactly ut seeright? Now there are a number of features that the contractsenevil that are not rolled out in the Uy for reasons of limiting scope so that youactually watch someday, but I think those things that thosewill plan is to roll those things o over time. I think it makes so much sense like if,even if just having to I think people are already starting tonavigate, he who do. I trust what are the implications of trust,have adding the friction of, and how much do I, you know what score do Igive this person, I think, would really have pampered the uptake, but it'd be awesome to hear about whatsome of those like, what some of the things that are in the contracts thataren't currently in the in the Ui itself are as well as maybe some thingsthat could have been in the contracts but would have been interestingfunctionality for a UBA, systemit, Gootdsolf Yeah, oh well, we yehave, maybe our most hotly debated featurethat did not get in there was limiting the amount of trests youcan give to like really make trust scarce solike Yo, can only trust im maximum of like a hundred people doing I arproject that's ther, very similar to circles of Youre Fan of circles. Youshould also Investigatinver Joniter Duniberiad, U N, iter, okay, so yeah! It's they live at trest to a hundred people.We eventually did not do it, but I had a really crazy moment. Like three days,pors cos some lunch. The contracts which is like. Maybe I should just addit, but turn it off, but if someone wants to like fork circle Sunday, thecodill already be there and- and I was like no stock Changerg- The contractyou's supposed to shit them so yeah. That's that dien't be good.fuatures that are upcoming, though, are adding and managing owners of yournotice, sae, which I think is at a really importantone. It's a better pattern for using circles, an two devices then enteringyournomonic on the second device, which...

...is the only way to do it now. We people are definitely going to wantcircles on mobiles, AF, the point of payment, so that and then also you can imagine addinglike your Mo Secure Wallit as well. We have a feature for organizations tosign up or Phusinesses to sign up, which is to enter an account into thetrust graph. That doesn't receive a token, because you know your localcoffee shop doesn't mead an universal basic income like actually like in amore correct world of the trust graph. You shouldn't trust people that arepeople and the people at the copy. Stop shouldjust be getting the VI through circles themselves, not this conglomeration ofpeople, yeah, yeah, exactly and then yeah,especially for a business managing the t, the people who have keys for itagain those two are tied and then I guess the final thing of twoother things that aren't enable just to listen them all. All the things wedidn't do: Wayto Trusk, which, like you said Iagree it would be confusing for the average user circles, but I think youknow somewhere in the like advanced settings. It should. I think it wouldbe really good to have and also, I think, than ability to overridethe transitive and send directly in a one time payment case. So that would be like. I see somethingon a circle's version of Craig's list that I want to buy, but there'sactually no trestcath between me and this person, Bat. They look at myaccount. They meet me. They talk to me. They Google me, and they find me onsome other website they're, like I'm, pretty sure, you're real and I can seeI can. I can see that you're infeded in a trust graph. It is not too far away from mine I'll accept your coinses one time. So Ithink that would also be a really nice feature to roll it. Nice, okay, Jay, do you have any anyquestions right now, I think pretty much covered all thethings it's itseems like a really interestingproject. I saw it a little bit on Crypti twitter, I a'd hot a chance to really take a lookinto it, but I'm certainly going to now so very, very interesting. Yeah thanks. I'm happy to you know ramble about it to Y'all and I think it's you know one of the things that we'vetalked about for circles. Let's see that happens because it has a longertimeline, is to sort of publish what happens. You KnowHo how this project goes, what we hear from our users, how we see it used indifferent places after you know, it's been out for awhile. So I think that maybe viewers listeners of this podcastcan maybe chicken with us in a year or so also to have some of the answers tothe questions that I I just can't answeryet with anything, but speculation, yeah they'd be Great Hill put on thecalendar, no man, Oh man, hold me to it. Yeah I'll. Just you know just rapi'l. Ijust want to say like it is one of the first projects that I felt Icould tell my normal friends about that waslike relative an to them and and that they could fairly easily understand,and it wasn't totally Esocherik and didn't have likeseven players of dependencies that I would have to explain to them beforethey could see the utility of it. So I'm very I'm very excited about andbulliship about it. I feel, like I shouldn't even be saying folish. Thisis not the context, but but if not circles, perhaps somebody elselike someting someothing will will take the lessons from circles and makesomething really special happen. So that's always been my hope and if thatperson is listening, the first thing I would say, is ges over this like sixtimes bigger than you think you need but yeah. I agree like you know,circles may not live, but maybe the things that aren contained within itcan be used Somday by another project, though I of course Holpe that ourproject does live and is adopted by both crypto familiarpeople and people who have no idea what CIPDO is. That was be a real circle.Success for me for sure, okay, Sarah! U...

T WREP UP! Where can people find outmore about circles and invollow you if they'd like to yeah, so the project is circle Gbi, that's the twitter hand, Al as well,circled, CBI or circle Zobi, and then the the website right now isjoin circles dotmet, which has a bit of a quick overview of the project, and I am Sarah Friend and that is: Isthis an art nwitter excellent? Okay! Thank you so much fordrowning this. Thank you so much yeah thank you for for chatting and have agood tet'st a Yeu Day.

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