Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 113 · 1 month ago

Hardware infrastructure Pt. 2

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Hashing It Out is dropping a series on the infrastructure of blockchain.

In part 2 of our hardware infrastructure episode, Corey, Dee and Jessie talk to DAppNode founder, Edu Antuña and Pol Lanski with DAppNode business and ecosystem development about how they got their start and what they envision for the future.

We didn't really introduce ourselves, should we? They Know William, they know me. Welcome to the hashing it out podcast, where we talked to the tech innovators behind blockchain infrastructure and decentralized networks. Your hosts are Dr Corey Petty, currently doing research at status and waiting for other people to keep up. Maybe those businesses need to stop being bitches. Jesse Santiago, a former electrical engineer now working on decentralized storage at status. Chat in your hat like as a happy meal toy and with a deep voice and the deep questions. De Ferguson, that's not what it set out to be. How dare you and I'm the hashing it out showrunner, Christian no Gara. In part one of our hardware episode, are fearless hosts. Talked to Rick Dudley at vulcanized and t j rush of true blocks. I will say that it was less about what this particularly from the interviews, and more of the trend that I see that's a lot more grand than just crypto, and that is that knowledge of hardware, I think, is gonna Start to get extremely specialized, more than just crypto, like even more so than it already is like. When I was a kid, I remember going to radio shack with my pops and going to fries with my pops and he would make up a lot of my mom and be like, Oh, I gotta go to fries again, this is gonna be terrible, and we would be in fries for like three hours looking at computer components, like looking at little stuff, and he's like yeah, I'm gonna build a chip set that controls the garage door and links the garage door to the Wifi. Dott of God. I was like, I have no idea what you're talking about, but this is interesting. And my dad knew about all that stuff and he taught me how to like build a computer. He's like you need a motherboards, you need some ram you need some cards. It's not hard. And he was like here, this is what this does. Look on the car. This little part right here is like a little bus. And you tell me about all this stuff and I was like, okay, it's a little bit over my head. I'm twelve, but uh, keep it going. And now let's look at the trend. Fries is closed, radio shack is closed and has been converted to crypto exchange I'm not going there, but that's real. UH, nobody who has the knowledge can easily access these parts anymore. And then it's even getting to a point where it's like if you ask for computer chips and stuff like that and be like well, you need this for we do with all that? What are you building all that stuff? Right, so it's like I'm seeing this trend where CRYPTO is trying to slow down things, because I think things are advancing rapidly fast, and crypto introduces a hold on, let's slow down. You gotta Remember Your Own Private Keys, you gotta run your own note, you gotta build your own stuff, you've got to do some of this stuff on your own, whereas we're accelerated so fast. It's like nobody wants to, nobody cares. Nobody cares. No carrots in my phone. What parts are in my phone? I don't care. Give me a phone. Did you just say I'm gonna talk about rick and T J and not say a single we were talking about hold up, slow down. By the way, this is very us. This is very us, this is very this is what we do. So and so what I'm saying is is neither one of them got into the nitty gritty details about the hardware needs. Two build a note for a blockchain from scratch, which is what we're trying to get to the surface. What do we need at these layers, the hardware layers? Neither one of them said anything. They were just like, I gotta one of them, I gotta jump in. You're right, and this is a byproduct of America shipping out all its foundries and fabrication for all chips to China. We don't know how to make anything anymore in terms of like chip fabrication. What I'm I'm generalizing. It's it's not true, but when I when...

I look at the accessibility of learning a programming language all across the world, the ratio of people who probably can develop some sort of familiarity with developing like software development versus hardware fabrication. Uh, it favors software development. There is zero cost for writing a line of code and and or many lines of code and deleting it. But when you're designing a chip using eagle cat or or any sort of cad software too, you know lay out parts on on PCB, you have to send that that file off to China to get it made and so when, when we were listening to t j discuss hardware, all he said was you need a like I need a high end gaming machine, and that's all. That's that's all it took for me to realize we don't know anything, and by we I I mean people who are developing software in this space. Care very little for the hardware and they're just shooting it off to VPS is on Amazon or Google or Microsoft, because that's enough to get away with saying something is decentralized by seemingly writing the software that could potentially be decentralized if the hardware. No, how, and hardware was commercially accessible to more people from a financial standpoint and from an availability standpoint. Because, like you said, uh, I'm in Atlanta. There used to be a tiger direct store. It's no longer there. Fries, it was there a few years ago. I used to go to it all the time here in Duluth, gone radio like. The thing we have now is microcenter. Same time. So you're talking about it's, it's, it's it's kind of it's almost ironic or not ironic, but whatever that. We'll see what we see what it is. After I talked about it, uh, we are making software for generalized hardware and when you do something that it's made for generalized hardware, Um it's very easy to run as a VPS and that's also because of those those constraints that you need high, high uptime and some people's Um I, S P or power delivery isn't stable enough to handle the requirements of the note that you need to run. That being said, like Rick pointed out that, like, if we wanted to do this well and have sufficient to decentralization, then we'd make an a sick and distribute that a sick or specialized hardware, right, and so then you just control the distribution of that hardware based on the level of decentralization you want. But if you build something for generalized computing, then the ease in which you can just spin up a node from cloud services is so high that that's when everyone's gonna do because you can automate it, you can scale it, you can do all this other cool stuff that's really hard to do at home, and so there needs to be a large, much larger narrative around getting able to run stuff at home, which is what depthnotes trying to do. In terms of just buy a note, it's configured right. Um, I also like kind of like as a complete different aside, the nonchalance in which works, like Oh, we can do this, this is this is the answer. Yeah, and I don't think it's that easy, but it maybe in night. If it is, I don't know why, like no one's listening to him, he said, because once you intertwine money, then you're not gonna go down the a sick route. Right, because he said, if you want a blockchain that's not going to be centralized at any point, don't assign money to it. Don't have an incentive that you can extract. Yeah, that's the main point he had was there's billionaires in the support people. So if that's the case and there's...

...value associated with getting access to it, then you're automatically imposing some asymmetry to the distribution. Gotta make an a sick for the poor people that the rich people don't want. But at the same time, like, at the same time, like that's fine, like it's not about everything is decentralized completely. Everything is fair. It's sufficient for distributing power such that you limit the amount of influence and asshole and the community can have m hm Oh, good takeaways. I love how t j yeah, saying like I love this stuff, but everything I talked about is negative. Well, that's just because it was so bitter. Like both of them are kind of better, to be honest. They've been building stuff for a long period of time and not getting the attention either one of them deserve. In my opinion, it's really hard not to give it or the more time you spend doing the same thing, right. I think that's why. I think ultimately that's why retirement exists. It's like, Oh, twenty years, it's time, it's I can't do this anymore. What is that kid even talking about? Right, like I think they've been doing this for ten years, right, so they're at the halfway mark. Still can't see the finish line and they're like God, I can't. Coin desk is a dumpster fire. Just released the website. So Rick Literally just released his website that has information about what he's been working on for the past four years. Yeah, no, that probably took him a lot of energy, given the vibe from the interview. took him a lot and it came from us. That's where he got it, for sure. The bitterness, no, the energy to start pumping out all the work he's been doing. He's like, you know what, I am important, I am doing cool stuff. It's time to release. We get the conic. That's right. We need to find everybody who's discronate with the space that's been working and just bring them on the show and get them some curmudgeons. I can find some curmudgeons. Like everybody becomes a curmudgion. Like, look at our slack. Everybody like jaded. No, not Joe. Joe Is not jaded. Joe Is like this is the best time to be like. Everybody has like both sides. Everybody is, one hand, super jaded, but then on the other is like we could still make something scripto. Yeah, we are so callous from the the suffering that we've we've we've had over the years that I've lost, lost too many, hundreds of thousands of dollars literally. Yeah, like it's painful. It's it's crazy that it's so painful. Now is just like Oh, you're you're hitting that scab. Done anymore? Come off, that doesn't that doesn't hurt anymore. But Um, yeah, I mean, I love I liked rix in Rick's interview. For me, was a lot more enlightening because I found out, oh, there's a lot of things we could be could have been doing to make this easier on everyone, but we're just choosing not to because reasons dot dot dot. Like it's like, Oh, why don't we just make it a maximum size and then come up with the standard to archive, and let's do that. Let's do that genious thing. Let's do we just don't want something that makes it more accessible and easy. They want it to be to make it worth more, and that typically means making it Shittier. Right, that's think about it like like like that's the way that they're scaling ethereum, it's it's like it's it's not scalable like like like say, like your token becomes worth more the Shittier you...

...scale. I don't think that's true. Okay, I think what's happening is that the focus is not that are the focus is not on like that type of scale. There's so many different types of scale, so many different types of centralization, and the focus for the most part is so tunnel vision on one or two of them. Token price go up. How to make that go up? It's just the network, and don't provide a solution that. There isn't a solution that scales that right. It's just creating another bucket, right, e. Vm clones, and then just pulling transactions over to but one thing that was really interesting about what an interview that we did, and this is a hot tag. You're not gonna get this juice yet, audience, but an interview that we just did is that sometimes we do just get another bulk itt and, you know, put it a where the water is leaking. Buckets really good at putting stuff in the use case of a bucket is is pretty straightforward. If you haven't listened to part one of the hardware episode, go back and take a listen. But now part two with Paul Lansky and Ed do Antuna of DAP note. Welcome to the show. Um, we can start off by y'all giving us the kind of general rundown of who you are, how you get into this ecosystem and what DAP note is. Alright, let's get started. Um, cool. So my name is land sky and I've been with that note since Um, and DAP note is basically a free, open source software that helps people run notes. So it will can explain it better. Um, because he's founder of that note. But yeah, that the idea behind that note is that everybody should be able to own the access to the Um the centralized networks that they want to participate in, that we shouldn't need third parties in order to access the blockchain, to submit transactions to the blockchain or to query the blockchain in any sort of way. So, assuming or acknowledging that the biggest problem for this is that people really don't have the technical knowledge and it can be quite hard to maintain um notes by yourself. That note makes it extremely easy um by putting a Ui Um and taking care of everything in the background. It has out updates, it has um a VPN to connect to this particular server that may sit on your kitchen or your living room or on a cloud server. Um Uh to access via VPN, so you can immediately access the endpoints that are hosted in this machine. And it also has a beautiful the centralized dub store um where you can install new packages by a mouse, so you can clicking point and install Um. And the cool thing about this, this Um, this DAB store, which is kind of like the key thing of that, not to make it easy, is that it's completely the centralized as well. Great declination. Paul well, I am one of the founders of of Doub not with the Welina Grapplin Um, mainly Um, we realize in two seventeen that even we have these new central life technologies, we have, we have started to create the smart contract things and also even make it out at that at that moment Um, we have been using they in the wrong way because we are still having the fracture in the handsum of centralized providers. So the feeling world that we we were committing in the same mistake that in the past. So nothing we're changing at that moment Um. So so many that we realized...

...that we need to feel out how we can make easy for anyone to run out home. So at the beginning of them, not we we saw that a lot of people start to running notes with them. Not but only people that believe in in in this philosophical idea of the systems and all the properties of decentralized technologies. But uh, that is why we try to try to feel out how we can improve this and and make more people ran this. And one of the reasons was to make as simple as possible, as poll spin it, but that was not enough, or that is the experience that we had in the past. That is why we try to add more value to users. I mean, if you run a note at home, you are not only perhaping your privacy, you're also getting some revenue, and that was, I think, the power power reasons to to make this happen. Have you heard about draft King's marketplace? It's the place to snag the latest digital collectibles across sports, entertainment and culture. Draft Kings has released their first ever N F T fantasy game, rainmakers football. It's the only n F T fantasy game licensed by the NFL P a. Now you can collect the hottest player card N F T s while playing free for millions in prizes. Right now, everyone can get their first full roster starter pack for free, and playing is simple. Buy Cell, bid and win player card N F T s of the biggest names in the game through regular drops and auctions on draft kings marketplace. Graft lineups have athletes from your n f t collection and earned points for touchdowns, receptions and more. Just like daily fantasy football, build your N F t franchise and enter free rainmakers football contest. All season long to compete for millions in prizes. Download the draft kings daily fantasy APP now and sign up with Promo Code Bitcoin. Click the rainmaker's tile and opt in to get your first full roster starter pack for free. Plus play for millions and prizes all football season and build the ultimate N F T fantasy franchise with rainmakers football. That's Promo Code Bitcoin. Build play when only at draftkings. Contest entries dependent on type and number of N F T S help. Eligibility restrictions apply, void where prohibited. See draftkings dot com for details. Over the course of the time frame, they all been working on dapt node Um. How has the compute resources that are required to run these networks changed and how has it forced you to adapt? Teaching people how to run these various services appropriately or, like, provision the right amount of resources appropriately, or even just making sure that people have access to the right compute resources, memory, Ram, network, Etcetera. Yeah, that, Betty, good question. And just to put numbers in the table Um, the first time that I create the concept of Dotnote, uh, it's Youn U full note. It was around a gigabytes of of this space and right now we are close to one terabyte. So Um, everything has thing a lot in in during these years. not the run too much, maybe at all, but the round was more or less um in the same level. But the hard drives scenes and also that the um every time we need more um hard drives or or faster once um the thing is well, it happens, for example, that at some point they decide to increase the cat limit. So that means that you need to process more accessions per blocked. So if you don't have a go to card drive, you can. It's can do take a lot of time to synchronize um the chain, and I think people from the community relized that that was a problem for the beginning. Um. But also...

...if we compare that with Bitcoin, becon the growing. Wecoon is more limited and it's quite quite good to singer nights um even its case time. But the problem in the theories is worse than the bitcotting case. But as a new network are I mean they are giving a lot of track action per second because of the amount of harder they need to use. So Um, in the last years we haven't seen how this spaces has broke a lot and and the other thing is that when people run it up, not the thing is that they want to run several things, not just one. So you need to be you need to have enough space for for all these applications that you would run. One of the things that also realized at the beginning of this is Um people usually use transberry pies to run this networks and to try it at home, and that's really great and it's a perfect for this. But the thing that usually happened is that they still um this new protocol that they love, it thepion or Bacon or whatever, and uh, and then they after one week, they decided to move to another one. So that is not sustainable in in in the matter of having not seen networks. So that is why we, when we enbition this, we try to Um have enough hosts to run several of the of these networks. But obviously, Um, as they are growing, it's hard to maintain this level and at some point people need to choose between between them. So this is making more hard for for use at the end. Um. I know that there are efforts to create snaps sort of some block chains, or there are pron versions, but um making users aware of this and and take care of. This is not easy, from from the pend of use possibility, for sure. Some final thoughts from Rickablin and vocalize. I think blockchain systems in general, or the whole idea of them, was that, uh, you get out of them what you put in and that's a fair assuming that there's a fair distribution of how you can put in and it's a good mechanism for getting out. Based on that, then it's a fair system that can't be cheated, right, and then that allows you to build digital scarcity based on that assumption. You get in what you like, you get out what you put in. The only problem is, like, our assumptions on the fairness of that have changed over the course of time and the access to the resources to put into the system has centralized. And what I'm interested in is how do we get back to how do we build systems that are more fair like that? And if and like and how are we limited by their scale? So, like, in the event we build a system, or like we think about building a system that is you get in what you put out. Can that system scale and, if not, what are the limiting factors to it? So No, I don't think I mean when we talk about scale in the contemporary sense. I don't think a system like that can scale right. So I think you could scale a system like that. Maybe two millions of users and that's in it. That's extreme. I would expect it to start to fail around a thousand. But maybe if you, you know, tuned and tweaked everything over a period, a long period of time, you could get up to a million users. And again with users, to your point, one, you know, one CPU, one vote, one user, one node, sort of Egalitarian Um, still hashing data structures like a blockchain. Um, I think you could do that with with with I think you could do a combination of like a VDF for proof of work and verifiable delay function or a proof of stake or proof of authority. Um. So like a combination somewhere, you know, maybe maybe vd fs in proof of work and P O...

A or whatever. So I think those systems actually work. I think that's possible. I don't think that proof of steak. Proof of steak doesn't really provide an equivalent Sybil resistance to proof of work and I think that that's really confused and I don't think there's anything else. I mean. So, like if you look at Chia, like Graham Cohen's projects where he does proof of spacetime. That's like a really brilliant, Um recreation of proof of work on a via a different mediums as opposed to computate, you know, Hash grinding, Um, pure hash grinding. But Um, there are very few of those out there available, and I mean it took Braham, who's a very clever person, a very long time relatively speaking, to uh figure that out. I I don't see a whole lot of those floating around, frankly. Um. And so, yeah, you could scale out. So, yeah, that's an interesting point, actually thinking about proof of space time. Um, and could you scale it out in a more egalitarian way? Yeah, but then you have to get rid of rewards. Basically you have to really cap I mean rewards have to be capped in some odd way that I haven't really thought about much. But yeah, if you have rewards, it's like it's like too tempting, you know, if the rewards make economic sense. Like a reward is almost like a gift that you give to someone saying like thanks, you know, I appreciate you. Man. It shouldn't be like I bought this yacht off of rewards right. That's not gonna work. With a zen go crypto wallet, you can buy, trade and earn up to eight percent interest on crypto assets, while enjoying customer support and no more private keys. With Zen go you'll get to mathematical secret shares, one stored on your mobile device, the other on the Zen go server. Download the Zen go APP and use the Code Trade Zen at sign up to get ten dollars back on your first purchase. So we've been having in conversations with a few other people and, Um, we've come to almost invisible consensus over the fact that when you throw in monetary incentives for financial incentives in order to power these networks, you have centralization of validation by these node providers through, you know, higher amounts of staking required of the token um or, you know, just increasing the minimum hardware requirements of these notes. It seems to me that everybody agrees that there's an expiration date when you have financial incentives s bootstrap to a network and they kind of suggest that in order to have a network with any real longevity, it has to be limited to a community that is specifically tailored for what that transaction activity of that network would be, and it probably shouldn't be financial. So does the market have an appetite for something like that? Yeah, Um, yeah, that's a that's a really good question. And Uh and yeah, so we've I have the feeling that when I joined that note most of our note runners where, Um, voluntary, altruistic note runners. They really enjoyed the theory mechosystem. They wanted to participate. Um. Some of them were developers, so they actually had a use for Um, for running a note, but the greatest majority where enthusiasts. Um. You're absolutely right that as soon as we threw um the the beacon chain and the ability for everybody to uh, to earn um thanks to prove up stake, Um, we got huge amounts of interest on on running nodes in the...

...centralized locations because everybody thought that they could make some money off of it, which they can. Um. Then we got uh centralization on the likes of exchanges, on the likes of lie though let's not forget that before Um, you already had this proof of work centralization. Um. So I'm a bit comparing apples to oranges here, because we're talking about note running on one side and and validation on on on another side or pool steak on the other side. Um. So my my opinion in this is is very similar to what you hinted at. We're going to go towards Um, communities running their own, their own nodes, um, because you need incentives in order to run notes. Um. If if these nodes are not in se devised, it's very hard that anybody would run it. And these incentives can be financial or can be of any other kind. And more and more we're going to move into Um, understanding the centralization as something that has value. Um, because the centralization Um allows you to have unsensor ability unless you have privacy, a certain amount of privacy. Um allows you to have self sovereignty over your data and over the data of your community. Um allows you to have a lot, a lot more freedom on on who controls the data and the machines that that you're that you're using every day for your services. So we will move towards Um, some sort of non financial incentives for run for running those which is analogous to your question of will we move to uh, non financial incentives? Yes, I think so, um. But this needs to go hand on hand with this realization or with this education Um, that that there are benefits, that these incentives exist. Um, I agree with the bold thing vision. Um. For me, the thing here is, Um, it would be awesome, but too great is you have. You need to have a strong community to to run enoughs. Otherwise, I mean, at the end, just because you believe in the network that you are running by editors is an institimation. But the thing is, if you don't have a economical incentive to make that happen, they think that that kind occur. Is that, Um, maybe some attackers want to attack the network because of that. I mean if you don't get enough validators on your networks because, I mean you don't have enough community or they don't have, you know, reason to do it, then you are sorrying it maybe to this kind of attack. So try to find the balance with the writing incentives to run notes and also, Um, and also have a uh, you know, security in your network is an important balance. Um. My feeling is that you can get some people to run note, for sure for your network, even I mean small ones, beat one and you can move to some community. But to achieve the security of the network is harder than just wait for people without any reason to run note. Yeah, I was gonna say that. In a manner speaking, it's it's a like for me, it boils down to WHO gives a ship. So, like, if you have a network of people who need to do something on a blockchain, Um, if doing that thing is important, then they'll run the notes. Um, it's when you need to add that additional level layer of security for business enactors, if people want to stop what you're doing or if there's a potential for people to stop what you're doing, to get other people to just add a bunch of resources, hopefully through incentives, because they don't necessarily give a shit about what's happening on...

...the chain. Um, it's like there's kind of this balance between why are people running the infrastructure or the compute resources required to secure that infrastructure in a trustless way, so you're not like looking at any any particular individual to do it, and depending upon the community and the stuff going on in that community kind of changes those incentives in a lot, a lot of ways. And and I and I, and what I've seen over the course of the history of blockchain right now is, Um, a lot of people don't care about the actual running running the infrastructure unless there's an incentive, which means there's not a really good utility for running this stuff over letting someone else run it unless they can make money. And if you google this stuff for watching, most youtube like the narrative is around. How do I make money off of this? Not How do I use this to do something that I couldn't do in the past? And until that changes, I don't really see that that changing either. So, like economic concentis will basically just keep you pull interested until we have something better to do with it. With a zen go crypto wallet, you can buy, trade and earn up to eight percent interest on crypto assets, while enjoying customer support and no more private keys. With Zen go you'll get to mathematical secret shares, one stored on your mobile device, the other on the Zen go server. Download the Zen go APP and use the Code Trade Zen at sign up to get ten dollars back on your first purchase. There's five of us here, and Cinivi has been said a lot, so my question is to all of us is a general poll. What would incentivize you to run this hardware for a network? Cool people like CAM radio and like other forms of communication, they have no incentives baked into them other than you can communicate with cool people. You do cool things. I think if we had more exposure to figuring out where the people who are doing those cool things and where they're at. And, you know, maybe you have to run like maybe you have to run an I pfs note to connecte to like a discussion board. Um, you know, like I've seen some projects um trying to do. Um, I'm sure people would find their way on. I found my way onto I R C when I was like nine or ten in the nineties. So I'm sure people can find their way onto cool discussion boards of cool people advertised where they were at. What about you, lasking at a personal level? A very similar a very similar respondence then, as Jesse Um cool projects thinks that that I really want to support Um, but I would add that they need to be dead simple, dead simple, like they need to add zero effort to to to my to my normal day life. Um, if I can support an N F T collection that I love by pinning their content in my Ip fs note, just make it so I just click it and it's the collection. The entire collection is spinned on my Ip fs Noe. Um, I think that's the same reason why people run metrics servers through the chat with their mates. Um, this core is kind of changing that. But they have stickers. So yeah, I mean, if you ask me, Um, I think we need to distinguish between two things here. One is the if you are story in real value, like Kerin or a Voland or near, or if you is simple uh I gives note that the store data and it's not. I mean it's not going to happen. And attack on that. But Um. But for me the way too, I think we shouldn't shouldn't do the do the idea of not...

...having Harvard at home and running a note. I think the way to achieve this is, Um, I am more or more or less aligned with poll obviously, but we have to inform the message for media. Community is critical for this Um and and the thing that we realize is that at the end Um, these solo stakers or people that are running notes are competing against centralized servuce providers and and it's an unfair paddle. Um. So the idea of of having this community of of Uh not runners and put all all them together and put in the same table at the big players. It's important so they don't feel alone that. So it's something that can happen at some point. I also believe that maybe you don't have a reason to run up blockchain, but maybe uh, just run block ta in. But if you start to adding more and more and more things, I mean I run three blockchainsapis notes, and at the moment that you put more things on top of this hardware, it makes more sense because it's not an Extractford for you in most of the cases Um and you are providing mobility. So if we that was their idea, to make as simple as possible, to run as much as you can. So if they if they don't have to spend this time or this effort doing it's going to be easy for them. And just to mention when I mean and there in the idea of that not we ambition this as a router. Uh thedeal was kind of having a new router at your home, we call it. At some point they get wait for the three worth three world. So that will be, I think, an ideal solution in the future or in a frem world, to have a router at home. But is deep. But I'm not that's running note. You are not taking too much time to take a look to it is working and you add the networking that you live and since it's not giving too much effort and even can provide you a small reward, is the way to finally Um run this kind. It's like your preach or your make with having something easy and that thinks not much space on your when your home. It's the only way to make that happen. Um also, I apple has some ideas. So kind of having an Alexa or something like that, because if we start to figure out what are the devices that are now being buy for people to put that home, there is not too much recently, but this this is kind of Um um echo or Alexa things, and also the back room not too much. So we need to try to figure out if we can bring this in Asia manner or something that provides more valuable than just run, not for the users, let's say for me personally. Um, the combination of things. One is I'm a nerd and I like playing with these things, but also it's like talked with Um t j rush and one of the things that he said is that when I have the data locally, I don't need the Internet and I'm really fascinated by this concept of of trying to make online communities closer to the experience of physical communities. And if I want to have that type of concept, you need a level of resiliency and not relying on people outside of the community to provide access to the community, and you can only do that if you have the data locally. So, for instance, like I don't want to lose my ability to talk to a group of people because someone a cloud flair pushes a bad firewall change and cuts out half the Internet in my country. Or, and if you didn't take that too um a community that rates...

...in a regime that has a group of people that wants them to not do those things, and it becomes more and more important that they don't rely on third parties and other services. Um Two participate in whatever the activities they're doing in their community. And I think not only am I curious about this in terms of building things like that that are close, that make digital communities closer to real communities, but also I think it's important to be able to provide those types of options, because they literally do not exist right now, and so that's why I want to run stuff, is to like push towards that type of Internet where I don't have to wait for someone to tell me something. I can do the process of running a few services on my computer and other people doing the same thing allows me to do that with the people I would like to do it with. And the way you look at the Internet today is literally asking someone permission to do something in order in order to like just participate in talking with somebody or any type of community activity, and I don't don't like I don't like that really and the only way to go against that, in my opinion, or to build a future where that's not the case, is to building decentralized networks that don't require that. All good answers. Um, my mom would be money. So, Um, just GE throwing it out there. I mean, look, I I we have to. In my opinion, centralization is like a natural thing. You have to find a way to fight a natural occurrence of things because, just take your example, core, if there's a small community, Um, you know, let's take it back some some centuries, like only one of them is going to be a Smith. Not all of them are gonna Smith. Like he's not gonna be like yeah, coming over to my crib I'm going to teach you how to Smith and then you can Smith your own things. You Can Smith Your own troubles. He's gonna I'M gonna go no, man, I don't even want to Smith my own shroubles. I'm just gonna give you a couple of schmeckels and then you Smith the shovel for me. And he's like, AH, that's not the way it's supposed to work, like you've got to Smith Your own shroubles. Like people naturally centralize because it just makes everyone's life easier. Like I got a plumber coming this weekend. I don't want to know how to plumb their ship in those pipes. He went through a lot of hard work to learn how to plumb, so I'm paying him to plumb, probably a massive premium, but whatever. That is what it is. So I think if, if we'RE gonna stand to make things decentralized, you've got to decentralize it based on like the smoothest way is to get people to do it for money, because I'll be like, oh, yeah, I'll run. That's giant stacks are hardware that I don't need to know how to run. Uh, if you pay me Um. And then we've got to define the rules around that, because if you don't, then it's going to naturally centralize. Then the people that know and have the skills are gonna gate those skills with dollar signs or Eurosigns. But those are pretty interchangeable nowadays. M I right economy. With a zen go crypto wallet you can buy, trade and earn up to eight percent interest on crypto assets, while enjoying seven customer support and no more private keys. With Zen go you'll get to mathematical secret shares, one stored on your mobile device, the other on the Zen go server. Download the Zen go APP and use the Code Trade Zen at sign up to get ten dollars back on your first purchase. I see on your side you've got three different or two different models, ones like sixteen gigs, thirty two gigs, Um, and in that is, you know, some hardware variants. So do you see is it? Is it possible to consistently have decentralized open chain where, Um, you know, people can...

...continue to run, because that's sixty four games. Is going to turn two concern fifty six. Um. Do you see it? Like leveling off the needs, the hardware needs, Nan sky and eat either either one. You can take that one. Do are okay? Um, I think mainly is going back. I mean, I agree on the on the idea that money is this the reason for running that these things. Um, I also believe that makes sense because at the end, the people that put some value to their time and if you need to spend one week understanding how to run and out and you are not going to get nothing more than happiness to be able to do it, maybe it's not enough to have a decent drive network. Um, unrelated to the hardware consumption. Um. Yeah, I think. I mean in the case of Domnut is quite different, uh, because we expect people to run several things and every day is peeling a new blockchain. So the only way to be able for for running several is, yes, to try to have a big aspects, but we also have an ambastion of dombnut. And if you only want to run BITCOIN, and it should be more than enough with an air am Um, I think at the end, or my feeling is that in the future, with the journalitgy stuff, we are going to be able to generate proof of the state of blockchains and be able to have a state it's client and with that I hope that in the future the sources to run a regular note, that where that is going to be able to validate traffractions and be part of the network. It's going to be less um maybe we are going to have another role in network, that is this proverb that generit is the proof. But but that's some other friends thing. It's like we are going to split the work of the network in different roles and we are going to have the proverbs that theyre going to be going to make big pros, but the regular not and the note that usually people consumes too but axtractions and to be aware of the statutes of the network are going to be less suspensive. So I guess that that is the direction that we are going, because if we're going to achieve this massive diccastion per second that a lot of people wants, and if we want to go mass adoption in in in transaction and box chains, we need to have this new technologies. Otherwise it's not scalable. I mean the growing of the hard drive UN the run is going to be possible to sustain Um and the only one needs to to to introduce these needs to turnologies that allow us to decrease the Harvard requirements and obviously, at the moment that we are able to decrease the Harvard equipments, I guess I think if more people can run nor things and and sustain more network at the same time. Yeah, adding on to that, agree with everything Um. There are a lot of efforts towards making these accessible within the communities and block chains that value the centralization, not in the ones that don't value the cytrolization, of course. But there's been talks about a real genesis, taking a snapshot of the chain and doing a new genesis from that snapshot. There's been talks on on adding a new up codes for temporary, temporary storage Um that there's new up codes being talked about in the ethererem ecosystem that would allow you to store Um data on chain temporarily, just enough time for what a roll up of any kind would like to, would like to or would need it to be there and then just deleted. So...

...all of these measures are meant to reduce the hardware, hardware needs of h of chain or of validators. Um stateless clients as a dimensions is another one. So there's there are thoughts. This is something that is being told about Um and I think maybe we will not get back to a Um sort of like really, really lightweight. I wish maybe like maybe not. Maybe not. Maybe, maybe we will go back to something that you just have a in a raspberry pie. Um, my first dose going no notes. I had to wait for five minutes. I had it in my laptop and I had to wait for five minutes to to to sink again before I wanted to make a transaction. But it was mine, you know, like and it took tops five minutes to to load whenever I wanted to make a transaction. So Um, hopefully we can get back to that. I want to ask another question to everybody. Well, not everybody. This is just you do a Lansky. Is that? You know, in a world where this tech is, you know, proliferated, everybody loves it. You know, in a world Um, there's gonna be a piece of hardware it's in everybody's house or business, like, for example, I'm looking down right now, so a fiber modem. I know it's in that thing, but it's allowing us to have this awesome conversation right here. What's in that thing that powers this tech? What's in that box? What? What is in there that everybody's gonna need if this stuff grows to the popularity we wanted to who knows? You can find more information about death note at depth note. Dot Io, the network layer, is up next in our series on blockchain infrastructure. Curtains Clos.

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