Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 102 · 5 months ago

Hashing It Out #102: Griff Green

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this Epiosde Dr.Corey Petty interviews Griff Green about incentvizing a better world thru community building and technology.

Social Media: Griff Green

Twitter:https://twitter.com/thegriff

Github:https://github.com/GriffGreen

Medium:https://medium.com/@thegrifft

Linkedin:https://ch.linkedin.com/in/griffgreen

Website: https://commonsstack.org/  

Welcome to hashing it out a podcast.Were we talk to the tech, innovators behind block Tin Infrastructure anddecentralized networks? We dive into the weed to get at why and how peoplebuild this technology the problems they face along the way come listening andlearn from the best in the business. You can join our ranks El over one. Welcome back to hashing itout episode, one o two on your house, Dr for Petty. We mayhave one jump in later on down the line if they show they want to, but for nowit's just me and we got griff creen with us today. So grush, it's been a long time since wechatted tell us who you are, what you've beenup to what you're doing sure yeah. So I'm green I've been in aterm space for a long time as comeinge for the Dow. I am, I have a master'sdegree in dital currencies from way back in the day in my twenty six first,one right, yeah first person ever get a degree in digital currency in a groupof nine and I'm kind of a serial non profit. CRYPTOfounder, like cryptophantic, Giveth, dot, node and common stack are the mostwell known projects that I work with and the and the ones that I put most ofmy time in also an advisor for a bunch of projects Biodo most recently and bythe ID, and I don't know I didn't three and Hermes and a whole bunch of otherprojects going to be a Git coing steward. I really just anything: That'sdoing public goods like trying to use crypto to make the world a better placelike I'm and like that brings me to like what Ithink so like these. This is more like one of the I guess personal series thatI've been doing lately with with hashing it out its pet talk to oneperson and it's more about like who that person is and what they're doingyou are obviously the equality person to do this with and I'm starting thoseinterviews out for, like episodes out with a question. What do you care about yeah I care about. You know it's kindof a weird thing to say it this way, but it's audacious. I like fantasies. Iwant to end altaris and altaris yeah. I want to end altaris.I think all I feel like society is exploiting the ultras and we're notrespecting the value. That's been created by the people who are providingvalue for society and that it has to stop it's not sustainable. Do youbelieve in Alteris? I, of course I believe I believe people are naturallyultraist. I actually think the default economy that we're all born into is agift economy. Your mom doesn't charge you you know for breast feeding, likeyou know, hey you e Le Posibilities there like it's like that's, not alterISM, that's that's! You could argue that that'sresponsibility and fear of the consequences and love and alot of other things, but Altaris is an interesting way to put it. Well, it's aI'm, not saying that's Altaris, I'm saying that the natural economy thatpeople are born into is a gift economy. Family economy. Is You basically giveto your family without expectations, and but there is some kind ofexpectation that if anyone was a need, they would be able. You would help them.You know and that there's like a family unit and that we're all in it togetherand that's held together and like items, are exchanged through giving there'snot a lot of and when money gets into the equation, actually kind of ruins.The gift economy Romans family relationships. I so this is. This isbecause the economy is in structure to handle money and so the natural state.What we are born into is the gift economy, a friend of mine, the otherday like yesterday, actually actually in optimist, optimism office. Theythere are crows that are leaving, they...

...were feeding the Craft Crows and thecrow brought muscle Shell and left it on on Jane's balcon to it's the cultureof giving man. This is like, Inter species. This is kind of the defaultway. That economist is, you feel great gratitude and then you give back, andso when people are really lucky in society, they feel in some ways theyfeel guilt, some ways they feel like they have a lot, so they want to getback right and it's just a natural feeling, and so I don't feel likeultraism is a bad thing, but I don't like the idea of relying on it for anysocietal good. That's just ridiculous! There's the house made of carts webasically this is where governments have come into and and really exertedtheir force, because we do not respect people who provide value for society atlarge wee, don't build systems that reward value production for society. Let's think I'm not trying take that apart a little bit or like challenge you a little bit o t yeah. Maybe it s I first off like I do thinkthat whatever people would typically deemthis ultraism is taken advantage of by by the masses and they're, not that it makes it such that people whowould like to live. That way cannot live that way. Sustainable and but you said, the introduction ofeconomics and money into most things usually ruins it, because, because of that, a bounce like they'renot paid commits or it to the value that they provide, because more oftenthan not what we value is like what people get paid for is not the types of value that ulterius areputting forward. You know, and so like that's, so if I restated thatappropriate, is that what you're trying to get rid of? Well, I'm trying to get what I so maybegetting rid of is the wrong direction to go. I don't want to get rid ofanything. I want to create something, though I want to. I want to hate therite cycle that that that, where that that imbalance exists like yeah, I likeeconomy built on Altri is never going to work. Yet we find ourselves,particularly in the Crypto community, doing that quite a bit. Yeah Yeah- andI just I want to build I'm excited about systems that reward valuecreation for society or for a large group of people, things that normallysuffer from tragy the Commons issues or free writer problems. Trying to createsolutions that can avoid those things and and using economic specifical,crypto economics, and also a lot of learnings from the Commons likeresearch, space, Elenor, Ostrom de Boer and all these other Commons researcherstaking their their lessons. Like you know, the Tragi, the Commons wasdisproven, or at least it was proven. It was studying and figured out how itcould be overcome by ELNER Ostea. She wanted no bell prize in economics inthe s for her research and we and and so applying this you know she solvedshe, cracked, the transite comments she found out where she created just eightsimple principles that we can follow to create sustainable infrastructure. For you know, Managing Common PoolResources as a community in a relatively decentralized wey. She likeshe really laid it out, and it's just eight sentences like. I can't recommendenough people go and check that up, and I just am excited about adding cryptoeconomics as the ninth point there right and and actually being olde. Whydo you te Crypto Pronomico? What is to economic preito incentive alignmentrewarding? So she found a way for...

Commons to be managed appropriatelyright, but she didn't find a way to actually reward the people who managethem. It's really a self governing system that that well, what she did isshe did like a Meta Study on Commons that had existed for over a hundredyears. WALSE generation like ecosystem or communities that were managingshared, a shared resource, whether it was a water shed or was, like you know,fishing in a bay to protect the fish, or you know, farming, water, scare resource and inlike sustainable management of yeah forests, and these sorts of things thatare managed not by governments but managed by the communities that rely onthem right and and so, and she only looked at ones that have survived overa hundred years, some of them for thout a thousand years, and she pulled outthese eight principles from the successful ones and also looking atwhere they had major problems where they almost went wrong and like derivethese a principles and now, but so that, that's like Oh look, we can manage, butmanagement is that's like sustainable, that's great, but I won't regeneration. The these shared resources have value.We know that they have value in fact, governing them specifically has value.This is where cryptoconchoidal in play, because you see all these governancetokens right, like the government. Still, can you view these token? There's no derivative like there's? No,you know that that fee isn't being applied yet right so like. Why does theUNSAT token have value you know and it's like because governance overshared resources actually does have value? Why our presidential elections,you know why are they like- is spending billions of dollas tobecome president when you only get paid four hundred k a year, becausegovernance over shared resources has value. So that's where I feel like wecan really start applying economics to solve this tragedy. That Commons issuesolve this alteris IC issue, because so, like the big, the bigger picture hereis there are two types of economic goods or we can divide it by economicgoods that are exclude, which were great with our market economy, so thinkof a movie theater. You can charge tickets to right selling D VD right.These are exclude goods. What do Y Y A M K excludit from what you can you canput a boundary around it and you can have a customer. You can charge peopleright, you can exclude people from using them, so a movie in a park, forinstance, provides just as much value if not more value than a movie in amovie theater. But you can't stop random people from coming in the parkand enjoy the movie, and so the people who throw movies in the park. Theycan't sustain that right. They don't have a business model that worksbecause we even get ridicula Ed as well. You can't manipulate the economics aswell, because you had you, you give up a portion of control over how it's consumed yeah and, and you can,that the it's the control exactly right. It's the fact that you're kind of justgiving away open source code is another example right, but then there's a lotof open source licenses where you're taking something from a non excludecategory open, Source Code Mit license, anyone can use it and then you'resaying actually we're going to use the patchy license or some other licensethat if you're a large company you know now we can start excludingpeople if you're a large company, you have to pay to use the software. Youknow. Oh okay, now you just excluded...

...somebody. So now you can charge themnow. You can have a business model, but the cool thing withcryptoconchoidal. You don't need a business model. Look at all theliquidity mining programs. Look at all of these other systems, even a theory,just regular mining. You can. You can issue currency for the people that areproviding value. I don't think maybe a free phrase that, like you, don't need a business model,that's built on monetize exclusion to a scarcity yeah. You need an economicovel, but this is something I think about allday every day like, and I would agree with you, I'm justtrying to get to the bottom of like what this differentiation is and how,potentially you think, it's kind of like in the event that what you do andwhat you care about is successful. You create these communities where you havea different form of governance and underlying economic model and howpeople interact with each other. What is the world? Look like an theevent that that's wildly successful have like what is successful to that.Well, for me, success looks like competeitors that are very similar tothe free market economy that we have for exclude goods, but for none,goodawl goods. So imagine if everything charities were doing, they couldactually profit from right, and I could have a start up. That's like trying tohelp orphans or trying to clean a river or trying to build roads or trying totake care of the less fortune in society right and I could be competingagainst other for profit economies that are using an economic structure,probably more like a doll than like your normal business company right andthese Daws are actually competing to provide public services. That's what it looks like it looks likea stock exchange for charities. It looks like impact investing instead ofdonating every time. Every time you have something that you care about, if,instead of it looks like ending the requirement of sacrifice to providevalue to society, these are I'm not saying that that shouldn't beallowed. We just need a third way right now to to provide non exclude goods to societywith two solutions: Non Profits which rely on sacrifice and ultraism all theway through. If you donate money, your sacrificing, if you're working for anon profit, you usually take a pay cut, almost always right. In fact, it'salmost culturally abhorrence to be paid your normal wage. If you're working fora charity, the other n option is governments,governments require taxes and threats to say, Hey. If you don't give me mymoney I'll, take your house kind of kind of an attitude right. So in thatway it also relies on sacrifice. It relies on like control and Weird WeirdDynamics, also in both of these structures. Making a good decision isnot directly rewarded or incentive right like if a bureaucrat makes a gooddecision he collects. His salary bureaucrat makes a bad decision. Hecollects his salary, at least in the non profit world ifthey make a bad decision, they're held accountable to the grass roots likefunding that they're trying to pull this is the nice thing about nonprofits over governments. Profits are generally funded from the bottom up,whereas governments are very top down so like. If we have to look at thesetwo options that we have for providing value for society, you know not profitterms like where the money comes from right. Like yeah, I e to think aboutlike where the money comes from and...

...thus how the structure is created. Based ondistributing that money to the people involved, then they look verydifferently based on like how the money is pooled and and distributed. There ismuch more accountability, much more, but I think about this and like an I'mtrying to like marry my thoughts about what I would like deem social crypto with what you're trying to say and whenI think about the concept of Social Crypto, it's like, if you think aboutany given cuit on the internet or elsewhere. You havea group of people surrounding a specific set of moralsand ideals rules. Things are interested in kind of like there's this unspoken orsometimes spoken. Agreement of these are the things that we think are good,and these are the things that were interested in. This is what it means tobe like a positive contributor to this community right vary degrees of like explicitnessand those things across communities, but you can imagine that they existacross for all of them and that and when you contribute to a givencommunity, there's a value whether it be implicit or explicit, you get moneyfor it. As then, someone paying you to do it or you get Karma or social credit for thelike and reputation for being the person that has knowledge or wisdom inthat community or like how to get things done or who to know to getthings done. But the vast majority of those things,especially when you think about like implicit value and social value, is, iskind of broken in today's Internet culture. And if I think, if we can fix that in a waythat helps people like the go, we have to use the sport overand over again, I'm tired of it, but like incentives them to contribute to a given community forwhatever they said. Community thinks is good and they can do that incrementally.So they get paid for whatever contribution. That's good and that's somehow attached to theirsocial value. Then people will spend more time tryingto contribute to the things they care about in a positive way and potentiallybe able to pay for their life in the process of doing it and in the in the,in the advent of people for in the concept of people who are tired ofparticipating in a given community and they'd like to leave it they're able,like with Crypto, you're, literally able to take your value out and move itsomewhere else, and I think that's a really important part is that, like Iwant to remove myself from this givingcommunity, I would like to stop participating in this hobby. I've beena creator in this particular community for a long time,and I want to I want to try something else. I'm going to pull my value out. Idon't get to leverage my value in a multi, and a multitude of way isnearly as easily if it's Crypto base, because I'm removing it from a poolfrom a digital scarcity right, I'm trying literally transforming it into adifferent digital scarcity and applying it somewhere else, and so like thetransparency in which power is distributed across a given community is drastically better, which I think isone of the main issues with today's. I guess concepts of community is that themajority of influence is done by spice things that are not obvious, yeah yeah. I try to like marry that withthis concept of like tragic the Commons and how this stuff fix x fits into that,because it's a very similar thing. It's not for same well the big bigchallenges. Where does that money come from to reward those contributors right?So if you have a business model, then you can fund it that way, but if you'veseen a crypto like value can be created at a nowhere. It's depending upon, likee the...

...dogs, one second, depending upon howmany people want to do a specific thing and the underlying scarcity that thatis used to do that thing. So yeah, so we say it's created nowhere,but honestly, there's a lot of qualitative value that crypto justquantifies. That's what I'm trying to get get to is like this to for thelongest time. This value has just been implicit and manipulated in a lot ofways, because information is free on the Internet when we turn it into anactual digital scarcity and demand its use for like doing the thing, then you have a lot clear idea of like whatthat value is and how it stacks up to the other types of things throughoutthe world, and then its value is subject to the will of the people inmany ways right because of the market dynamics. So that's that's where itgets interesting, where it's like! Okay, so do we really need you and to swapSushi Swap Doto and all the balancer do we need all of them? Probably, probablydon't you know, but it's good to have, and each one has space to play andreally the value of their token kind of it is subject to the will of the samegroups of people just like it is in the stock market or any other or evenPepsi, and Coca Cola like business sales, they have to satisfy the community that actually is open tosupporting them right. So that's, what's really cool about these dynamics?Is You get this natural? Unfortunately, it's a little plutark, you know, butbut you still have at least some accountability to some Group of peoplewhich we are missing in the normal economic cuda goods space, because it'sall governments and we vote once every four years and clearly they're notreally very accountable to the well of the people many times so not nearly asaccountable, as you know, like the the CRYPTO projects are honestly. So how doyou start right because, like we're not going to be like the concept of thisisn't going to take over, like yeah punctures government any time soon solike? What is what is the reasonable starting place for trying to experimentwith these dynamics and like social inaction and social value? Howdo you, how do you start with small projects that I work with a givenamount of like value ejected into them so that they could grown? Is it e?That's there's a lot of stuff talking about here. Have you ever seen thedocumentary general magic now I think it's worth watching, although only ifyou're an innovator, if you're an innovator, especially on the bleedingedge, I think it's worth watching if you're not in abating and you're, justlike you're, not like a decision maker or someone who's providing scope. Youknow you, probably you probably get enough out of it for my two minutesfeel here, but basically it's a story about a team that spun out of an applein the late s and then actually spent some years developing the first smartphone in the early s and they they were the first ones that put likea touch screen that could go in your pocket. They created a moges, theycreated APPs. They created all of the stuff that you see in a cell phone camefrom their work right and then they launched in like the early s and theysold three sand copies and went out of the business because the people weren'tready for that revolution. They weren't ready for jumping from courtedtelephones to straight to a smart funk. I everyone's like what do I do withthis? I remember the concept of having smart phones and- and I remember when Ifirst got my first cell phone and it was able to store numbers and howdrastically like changed. I was, but I casion, I don'tremember the number I can just put it in my phone and have it as like speed,dial yeah. No totally. I remember havingthis in high school having this big...

...piece of paper with everyone's phonenumber on it and fold a really small type and then put in my wallet. Youknow I, how old are you I'm thirty, six SOWERE SAM age yeah? So we had the sameexperience and but that by the time when I was doingthat, smartness already invented all right existed. It just went out ofbusiness because it was too early. It was the right idea, but the wrong timeand people weren't ready for it, and this idea that I'm presenting today Heylet's end alteris m. it's a horrid, it's abhorrent to the masses like theit's like, there's a there's, a collect, Dick. You just made a catchy phrase forsomething that you're not actually trying to do. You're, not trying to endAlteris, I'm trying to you're trying to make altaris m more profitable. Youknow because all transite profitable Altaris M. I don't like the idea thatwe require people to sacrifice. No other ISM does not mean sacrifice, itmeans doing something, regardless of the e of like how much it takes forview like that. It's the motivation that usually leads to the concept ofalteris the the consequences are are based on the framework in which rewardshappen like you can have altaris in a real crypto economic system. It's justgets it just gets paid, because the motivation is the same. Well, I willknow the motivation to provide value in that direction might be the same, butthe altaris imply selflessness and is selfless concern for the well being ofothers or for prime value to society. You can say it hey, it's just an that's,not the motivation. It's O t, my in my opinion, like I do. If we I E, if wepay, people then can be sustainable and it's okay like we can. We can disagreeyet. Maybe I am maybe I am o go down a whole somatic yeah. Exactly so, andmaybe I am like what a you know sensationalized it, but it is kind ofthe end. That's like fifty year. Cold. That's obviously not like. How do westart right now? Unfortunately, this idea is not goingto be accepted by a lot of people because, like if I told you hey, youcan make a lot of money helping orphans. Let me tell you how old be like dudeyour evil like yeah yeah, it's a this is a scam. This is bad, but if I toldyou hey, the people like, let's go help a lot ofthe people who are helping orphans. They should be rewarded right and likeyeah. Of course, I that's more Tis, but then you frame it in hey. We can makemoney by helping orphans and it's like Whoa. You know I get that argument andI think that's maybe based on. I think our generalassumption that everything is a zero, some game, exactly ail it and and that's where that'swhere it really starts as by saying no actually we're expanding the economyand we're creating that the larger economic space and re creating a neweconomic game right, so you could think of economy isand the economy is the game, the US dollar economy. The goal is to get thehigh score and you do whatever you can get a high score, and even when you'reeon, musk in to jeff base us and you have the highest score, you keepplaying because you's going for the high score. YEA, that's crazy, but ifwe can create another economic game where actually to get the high score inthis game, you are helping orphans or cleaning the river. You know- and thisis how you get the high score in this game. You think that's like the right motivation, because, in myopinion, the concept of I need to get the highest score. Is it led to ourcurrent business strategy of unsustainable forever growth? Sothere's you have to you. You have to design your models in the environmentthat they're in and the environment that we're in that we're in is thathumans have faults right. We are greedy.

We are tribalism we have. You know wehave a desire were self interested. We we volve. We fail to a lot in a lot ofways, and so, instead of like trying to create the perfect system for how wewant humans to be, we need to accept these, as, as you know, peate RS in thedesign and say: Okay well, humans like to be rewarded for doing work. So thenlet's reward them for doing this work. You know it's not about. Is this? Theideal like this is this: What I how I want it to be? No, I want everythingthat just work and perfectly and everyone to love each other right, butbut in this world, where there is a imagine, a factory polluting, a riverright, they have shareholders and they can say, hey shareholders like you know,we could get rid of our pollution ethically by, but it cost us five granda month right and the sherrills could say no. We actually the goal of thisorganization is to make profit, and the state says that that is a acceptablelevel of pollution for that river. So it's cool right and effectively. That factory has afiduciary duty to pollute that river. They have to make a profit and becausea clean river doesn't have value on a spreadsheet. They have to continue thissituation and so the way, in my opinion, a way to avoid that is to say, Hey.Let's, let's create value for people who are coordinating Galu production for thisriver. It's not about corn ifying, the river. The river is is a beautifulthing. I don't want to token ize the river. I want to create a system thatactually coordinates value production around keep making that river. The waythat everyone wants it to be clean, pristine, fun to play in drink, cleandrinking water. You know value for society and everyone around that riverwas allowed for it to be that way, but they don't have a system that works forthem to make it that way, and they don't have an a lined incentive. Theydon't have a way to be rewarded for making it that way. So, let's create away for them, berewarded. Let's use crypto economics, let's see token engineering thatactually create a system for the people who want to keep it clean to berewarded and then that we can go to that factory and we can say, Hey, takecare of your pollution ethically and even though the state doesn't requireit, states are going to disappear, but even though the state doesn't requireit, how about we send you, like? We give you two sand dollars a month totake care of your pollution ethically, and we do major campaigns about howawesome you are in our community. So you can get extra jobs and you'recreating an ability to put something on a spreadsheet for thatbusiness, while having a community that is best post to manage a stream forpeople who care about the most o river to provide that spread shot like andthat's what tokens do they just put volitation a spreadsheet. So, like the way I picture, the majority of the reason for Crypto is er, like decentralization a generalright, we're just like going on a broader scale. When everyone talksabout, we should decentlie everything more often than that they're talkingabout. We should decentralized power. It's we should decentralize the abilityfor a small few to affect the many, regardless of their desire to beeffected right, and so what you're talking about isbuilding...

...community did dynamics that help people balance that power a littlebit yeah or like were or this keep track of it. Yeah and- and I think, but you saidearlier- was something that I think is somethin like maybe a narrative that weshould explore. More of the community is quantify Ng, the value that has it like that. Just is never beenqualified before so like we're, putting a number to a lot of thethings that we deem valuable and then giving it the ability to be traded inan open market, and if you look at it from that perspectiveor whatever the right way to put, that is then it doesn't look like thecryptic community is just fabricating money at a thin air. It's alwaysexisted. It's just a better track now and able to be traded and applied tothings that, like are beneficial yeah yeah. You saidtwo really interesting things there, the first one being hey. We need to democratize in manyways like a little with decentralized power. Right and democratized might bethe wrong framing, but decentralizing power. Absolutely, and the other thingthat you said is hey we're creating an interesting market, dynamic right and Iwant to read two quotes from some people. I already reference. EleanorOstrom really nails it here with. There is no reason to believe thatbureaucrats and politicians, no matter how well meaning, are better at solvingproblems than the people on the spot, who have the strongest incentive to getthe solution right. You know it's like the people who arethere can make the best decisions. There's no reason to think some.Outsiders are going to some, whether it's a technocracy, a cryptotechnocracy or it's a government official right that it's going to beable to say Oh yeah. This is how you should do it. You know the people onthe ground are the ones that do it yeah I have. I have a lot of sots on that.Keep going Oh yeah and then David Boler brings up. Brings up this idea that thenext big thing will be a lot of small things right that, like the way tosolve these problems, is not by creating one massive solution. That'swhat we have. We have a government that has a monopoly and every public goodsvertical right and- and it's very impossible- it's almost impossible tocompete. If you're a non profit. You know in fact, non profits really justfill the void that governments are doing a good job at in non profits andVenezuela provide clean water. There are very many clean water, non profitsin the states because we don't have. We have clean more so but I'll. Let you go to the ellenoerbefore I go into the market dynamics piece. Well, I got. I got thoughts onBosos now, Shit so to I say this, so I've been there's athere's, a book that I'm trying to write, but I've been trying to writefor a while now and it's- and it's mainly focused on people like that- theone skill that I hope to give my son- and that is the ability to understand how to aggregate curators of information recess what itmeans to be a good curators information right, because at this point it'simpossible to be able to consume it. All. You have to delegate that abilityto give to delegate that the curation of information to somebodyelse in some aspect of your life and the and the majority of the aspects ofyour life. You can only be a specialist in a very small amount of things,because we have a limited amount of time on the planet and so we're andright now and today's kind of it. Today's like the Internetsociety and how most people consume information. People lack the ability tounderstand whether or not what they're...

...getting is good information, and this is a part of kind of what you justsaid, with elenor quote- is that the peoplewho are best suited to way in on a given situation are theones who are intimately involved with that thing, unfortunately, more oftenthan not they're also the ones who are who are like the further down you gointo a specialization, the more assumptions you make about thethings you say to the people who are also that specialist, so you can have efficient communication.I know that you know X, Y and Z, which are in the introductory things of thisof the specialty. So I can talk as if you know those things and that gets lost whenever you goabove. Anybody who has that specialty right and so like what you need to do is a generalist asidentify the people who are able to bridge that gap between understanding,everything and a deep specialty, but also being able to relate thatinformation to and more general public in a waythat's consumable to them, but that's where it gets reallydifficult. How do you relay this information like digesting, if you'reasking why it's difficult to be an educator? Well, no, this is not whyit's difficult, I'm just saying it is anit, is very difficult to take verycomplex information and that that experts are using to make decisions andthen distil that to people who barely even care and making it legible whenthey don't have the background. So it's a it's a difficult question andhonestly, I wonder like we don't have to do that in the free market. We don'thave to say hey. You know I phone. This is how you should be making your ephone right. We let them have the experts andthen they capitalize on their expertise to ride value for society or but in anexclude way right thet. I mean all these cell phones are incredible:They're, providing a lot of value for us, but they're able to create a businessmodel, and the public holds them accountable by actually participatingin their business models if they like them, they like the service they provide, butthey don't they're, not holding them they're, not participating in this way.That's like you tell me how, like your Microchera me, how the touch gringworks, they don't have to know yeh think I think, with with the thisbetter like social relationship, you can, you can provide through cryptoeconomics and like Social Crypto, the people who are best suited to bothunderstand a given topic and when and transform that information or whatshould be. What should be understood from that information? The insights toa more general public could be Erbare for such a thing like they were talkingabout curation right. I M so like right now. The curation market in today'ssociety is Algorithms Right Recommendation Arithmos by big tech.They can sue your data, they run it through a lot of machine learning andour official intelligence to say, based on the things that you've done. This iswhat we expect you to do, and this is this is wrought for the dungeon. I Love A. I am machineburning, but it has a lot of interest like potentials for entrance into biasand manipulation, and it's very difficult in and circumstance when thathappens, to identify it quickly and clearly, like me, understanding whetheror not the movie that was recon recommended to me on net flix came fromsomeone purchasing the ability to give me that recommendation or it's basedoff my actual like this, is something that just came out of some machinelearning erythem without any any biass...

...whatsoever is impossible. When you allow the curation mechanismto become humans, who are best suited to provide general goods to a communityor like what what it means to be good for a community, then a lot of that goes away becauseit's clear and that people can those people are basically can be paid tospend the time doing. The thing they're already doing. As opposed to liketrying to find alternative methods for for paying their bills, and we givethem skin in the game on top of it right like they wrong an they, don'tthey lose that value and they are immediately. They immediately know that it's the wrong direction for that,given community yeah, great feedback mechanisms and yeah. It's this. Thisidea of quality and quantity right like quantify something qualitative honestlyhumans, do it better than algorithms and we just need to do it throughsignal aggregation like lots of humans, all looking at putting in their data and and that'slike unless voting in a way right is, I say it's a marriage right? It's! Idon't want to throw a AI and machine learning. No, of course no H M. I don't I don't understand therelationship between the two. I mean. Don't give you wrong like if we'retalking about block chains here, there's a tremendous amount of data foral to go and go go to town with, but take taking something that is likethe question is: Is this good right and trying to get what good means for givencommunity is very different right we for talk about a community. A Nazi iswhat they want to be good, is something that the rest of the communities wouldconsider a hoard and, and so that, in my opinion, the easiest way to allowthis is through open participation. Right free market has openparticipation, so you have you can aggregate everyone signal. What doesthis qualitate so in the common sec? We have this praise system. That's reallyreally cool like this. Is You know their source pread, which is a greatjob, rewarding contributors for quantitativedata? You know, but then it gets a little bit Gamal Right. It's no matterwhat solution you have for this problem. It's going to be hard, takingqualitative work and turning into quantitative rewards very difficult, but what, with the common sack, wouldcare this praice system where it actually takes it kind of uses it to make a culture ofgratitude. I praise cory, for you know bringing me to this podcast right andthen I just put in telegram everyone's vibe is a little higher. I'm recordingyour work right effectively in a qualitative way and keep it it.Qualitative allows us to bring in this culture of giving this culturegratitude. You know where I'm just like cory is awesome. Have on podcast. Wehad a great conversation, you know major phrase and then that ends up in a spreadsheet and weseparate the quantification with time. So maybe two weeks later, people from the community- and it'sdone all in the open- we straight up- go through and read every single praiseright, every single praise and we're talking in two weeks. We often havelike a thousand praises. This is how the sausage is made, and it's not a lotof fun. Honestly right. It's think bout, how this doesn't scale yeah! Oh, itdefinitely doesn't scale, but does it have to scale if you keep things smallright, the whole point is scaling horizontally. Not Scaling Vertically,so have lots of these small communities that do this thing and obviously rightnow we're in a spreadsheet. This thing needs to be in after right, I'mthinking about that it could possibly work. If it was it was it paid people'sbills right, yeah process of doing this pay people's bills, because then theycan just contribute to the things they...

...care about the most and he and a smallamount of way and they can pay their bills like good every to racal enoughis what the goal should be. Yes, I my gratitude. That sounds really niceright. It creates this beautiful culture and it's almost a way ofnotifying everyone. Hey. This thing happened so like if it checks a lot ofboxes like transmitting the information around creating a culture that is likeenjoyable to be in and then also rewarding contributions, especiallycare work contributions. You know it's hard how to source Cret. You knowreward you for bringing me on this podcast right like it looks at Gehab.It looks at discord. It looks at Discourse The forum right and now this is an Naos. So really themarriage is both right. I love source pread and I love this praise system andI and the right now that token engineering common is, is integrateingboth together, so that we can have this like we, we don't have the dish, praisefor people going to calls, for instance, right or or like addition, things thatcan be automated. We don't have the dish praise for so that we can haveless praise on the praise board, because, right now the praise system isdoing all the all the stuff like. Oh thank you just praise to these twentypeople for posting on the forum. You know it's like okay, like that, couldeasily just be done by source, crit and then, but the larger things that arejust like this person did. This awesome thing that we all get to benefit fromget recorded in this way and then there's less praises, but it's this andthen this is how we could track these qualitative contributions and then we score them byallowing in an open process where anyone can participate. Well, there's alittle bit of a level of like you have to be somewhat aware of how they awarethat existence right, but like that's, going to be the same thing with anycommunity like yeah in the in the event that this becomes well Y, successfuland a bunch of communities. Do this type of thing they'll understand thatthis is the process you go through to kind of quantify the last week's like eventstowards the community yeah and it's great feedback. It's such great, richdata. I try to think about this from like, if you think about it, from loonstill take reditis an example right and you take any given separated regardlessof Hester. It is like they have the up thought system and they have Karmaassociated with kind of your history, of giving up those, whether it be fromposting things or given comments, and that's used as a way to kin to give youan idea of like how much is this person contributed to this given to red it ingeneral, it's difficult to identify that withrespect to any given community. A lot of these token economics and systemsthat you're trying to build is narrowing down on that process of likehow valuable is this person to this given community and what is there associated weightbased on how every one in the community feels about their contribution? Not what a given algorithm is. That's Gamalfeels above contribution, and I think, but I think it's important-never to we always say roles, not souls right. Like you never quantify a person,a person is a unique snowflake. I say contribution right. Yeah, acontribution is, is very, can be quantified without hurting people'sfeelings. I mean this is the other thing is that we often forget thattoken engineering, like true token engineering, it involves so manysciences. It is not just data science or crypto economics. It involvessystems, engineering, of course, yeah sure control, theory, Ai ComputerScience, all these things, like...

...economics and Game Theory, but also youknow, you're, building a socio economic system. So you need to understand theyou need to actually include philosophy, law, ethics, political science,governance, lessons, psychology, decisions, decision, science, you knowand and really community management. All of these pieces need to be includedin the way you design your reward system, otherwise you miss out likeotherwise you can really screw things up. I mean look at what x, Moon hasdone to the our cryptal currency sub, read it it's super cool right! It'slike I get. I don't know a thing about that. I've alway been so heads downwith a bunch of other stuff that I basically don't know anything that'sgoing on on Cypiere, there's only infrastructure. For me,there's t is it's a nice case study. There's this x moon token that you canget for giving up boots in or it's like doughnuts yeah, it's exactly likedonuts. A little different has it's on little differences, the big one beingwell, I don't know I don't know exactly: I'm not going to pretend to be anexpert on either of those economies, but I know with X. Moons people areeffectively able to buy up, but there they are, will go to dark markets andbuy people, buy up boats right and and now there's a market for up boats,because upons are rewarded in a quantitative way, a directly quantitateway with this currency that you can then go to unusual and trade for ether.You know, and so you have this inflation that is going to reallypeople who are on in the community and the ability to like sus out what isactual good information for that community. It really it exactly ittotally ruined the curation model that they're trying to go for because theythey didn't. Look at the other dimensions is like: Okay, Sir: Let'sbuild this economy and here's the right incentives that we want. I but oh, whatdo you know? Not Everybody is a saint. You know people are going to gain yoursystem and you didn't put any checks or balances. You didn't put any humanoversight and it in a socioeconomic system. I don't get me wrong. I lovethe centralization, I'm all about it, but we need to have some human inputs.You know and the in instead of making me by that. I quit sorry like I don'tmean to re up like people like this, this space loves to say I lovedecentralization yeah. I feel like that's a shitty sentence, yeah, because it's not it it regards towhat and then there's no the like it's the concept of human relationships and it's so broad that you can't map it to the concept ofcentralized versus decentralized and that's what a lot of like. I thinkthe narrative has done within the crypto currency ecosystem and inreality, like the majority of the things that we've done over the pastfive to ten years, has been. How far can we sping them sex? I swingthe pendulum from centralize that do centralized. What can we do? That's soone hundred percent decentralized that was centralized to see what works andwe're like most of it doesn't work because in reality, most socialrelationships are somewhere in between, depending upon the types of things thatyou're trying to decentralize, whether that be like a token distribution thatdoes has some specific purpose: The power of one person to insert theirwill over many, the physical hardware that votes on certain things and thegeographical representation and, like it being resilient to power surgesacross the globe that there's so many things that you have to take. He anaccount when you talk about the word decentralized, that I just hate thatterm so much yeates right, we're looking for arobust like redundant system that can't doesn't turn off that. That willcontinue and that actually solves a...

...problem. You know, I think, that's thepiece like. Oh Yeah, you sentially all the things now, let's just solve theproblems that we need to solve right and decentralization can help, but it'snot always the right solution like the common sect. We have this trusted seedand because we want to enable people to initialise like non profit economies,basically right, but and and we it's not about like one person, one vote orone person- you know make sure we don't have multiple people and it's reallylike. Oh initialized, their economies is a very dangerous situation or it's avery easy place to extract value right, especially we're using bonding curse tosolve the liquidity issues around micro economies, so initialized a bondingcurve. It's a there's, a lot of opportunity there, so that makes it avery adversarial space, but we want to make it so that regular non profitgroups have like some block chain expert Tis that the available for themand people who have expert that have been through like launching thesesystems before, and so we have. This trusted seed where people can apply tojoin and we look you up. It's a centralized crated system by our likeSwiss association, and you can only join if you are, if you have some proofthat you're an actual like good person, a unique person and your value a lotlike if we go to your twitter and its air job air drop de five, long, defishort calls and that's it you're not going to be accepted. Ifit's air drop air drop, defiling short calls and a whole bunch of like agrasseconomics is really cool to check this out. Oh Hey, like I really you knowwith some like. Oh there is there is you are trying to make the world abetter place with block chain or you care about it or your actillyparticipating you're, not only here to extract value, but you also want togive value yeah, that's okay! You can, you can still be like you know, self, interested and sociallyminded. At the same time. You can be both it's okay right and then we thenwe would let you in, but we might give you a lower score. A lower cap,everybody in the chest, a seat- has a maximum cap that they can get on theirreputation that they can buy right. So because, effectively it's like a proofof Altar ISM. You can. You can pay membership dues to the Swissassociation and then that will also increase your reputation because heyyou're effectively donate right and O to continue this work. It's ait's a because we're creating an exclusion ARY system. We can also likefund ourselves through this through this system, but, of course, to jointhe Swiss membership like if you don't have the means, we'll give you ascholarship and you can get in for free if you're a good person, it's totallycool there. It's the main purpose is to actually create a group of people whoare value, aligned that are in the block chain space and trying toactually make the world a better place with it that other economies can use tosee their economy. This is why people love air drops to get coin. It's thesame kind of idea, but then now a bunch of like oh round eight round, nine washorrible. So many people just like making fake transactions to donate, sothey could be part of air drops in the future. You know, and- and so we want- you know we're trying to buildsomething and it requires centralization to do the qualitativemeasurement of is this person a good person like? Are they going to come in andpump and dump economies are not right? What is the likelihood...

...sorry? So I probably start to wrap a little bitfrom here like yeah before you wax poetic about a few other things.How I review, who are interested in what you're doing? Where do they go to find out more andtry? I E, I say I say like someone who who watches this is like he's what I'mabout. I would ont know more. What did it go? My twitter, probably I mostlyrete honestly, I'm not that active on twitter by re tweet, all the commonstack, Giveth and trust a token engineering Commons work that I'mworked, that I'm pushing and doubt note as well. Those are like the fourprojects I spend the most time on. So if you follow me on twitter, you'll getall the re tweets right now, probably the hottest spot is the tokenengineering Commons discord there we're doing the first participatory, thefirst economy ever that's been generated from the bottom up, whereanyone could propose the mission vision, values of this economy. Anyone canpropose the technical parameters for this economy and and then those getvoted on by the community, and then those are what applied like. Instead ofyou know, just trusting the technocracy to choose thirty to ether or whatevereconomic framers they want. We can actually have that come from bomp an B,a proposal that people can decide on right, which is wild a wild. It's neverhappened before in the history of humanity to have participatoryeconomics, but I think it's super exciting. That's all happening in thetoken engineering discord and it really is like I mean this is to me. This isthe transition from monarchy style economies to democratic economies, andI'm really stopped about it. So that's. That's probably the bestplace to go or follow at common stack at tecs t comments or follow a giveth.Io are also all great at that mode. A say me some links about the all thesethings and I'll just put them in the description, so people can check it out,witters the its crypt yeah. Unfortunately, it is that's why I fit.I use it to be in crypto twitter, otherwise I wouldn't same man. I metyou, so we just had J C rush on the show on a con podcastto talk about two blocks and stuff, and we and him had met during the Dal when we were like trying to like to somewhat interesting- and that's that's where Imet you too right like so like I met you during that process, when you werethe community manager. For that whole Shebang, did you like? Could you imagine thatthis is where you'd be based on you getting that degree and I'm startingworking as a community manager for a project like slocket in the Dell? That's a hell of life right like like what ave you like. Could you have foreseen that this isthe chain of events that got you to where you are out? I mean nothing fromthe dals initialized I could. I have ever imagined I come on. That was whythe hard fork, like the white hat group, packing all these things and then otherhacks that came up all of a sudden, I'm not I'm a OI'm, a chemical engineer,I'm not really a computer science dude. You know that's my background and solike having a all of a sudden, I'm like on a hacker group. That's like runningthe white hat scene for like a couple of years, and then now, thank God. Wedon't have to do that any more AH, but you know in I knew I I was. Iwas always in it for block chain for...

...good right before bloc Cain was a thingwhen it was all just a you- and I remember your your contribution. Therewas very much like this is something cool. This is something like the theconcept of the doubt originally was a beautiful thing and I think those thoseideals carried through and like a lot of the projects we have to day.Unfortunately, we were naive in the underlying security to smart contracts.That's about it, but like it's interesting to see howall the players in that small group have gone on to do things, and I meanI've been following you and talk with you this whole time. What would you, in my opinion, watching you fromSomewhat Afar? It seems as though you've just kept contributing to abunch of projects you were passionate about. Is that wrong like what? What is your?What is your, I guess, recommendation to people who are trying to get intothe ecosystem and contribute in ways that are valuable? I mean it's exactlythat just go contributing ways that are valuable make yourself. This is alwaysmy suggestion, especially in this poll market right now. Oh my God. It is soeasy to get involved in a project and then get a job like you just makeyourself useful, go in there with agency everyone's too busy, and we havehorrible management structures in Crypto just across the board, its startup world and everyone is poorly organized. It's run by devs, not likeCEO type people for the most part that understand like man, organizationalmanagement, I don't understand it and I run a bunch of these orgs, I'm horrible,it's horrible, okay, right and and and so if you just go in there and you makeyourself useful- and it's like- Oh my God, if this person left that wouldreally suck, we better give them a job before they leave. You know this is that's the way doing all thesethings that I don't want to do it. It's helpful, yeah, yeah and, and what'sreally cool about that way in is that you just naturally do the things thatyou want to do right. So then, you're almost creating your own jobdescription by finding the things that, like you like doing- and you do well,you know and like that's- that comes back to original conversation- is thatI think what me and you are trying to build in a lot of ways is mechanisms and process where going and doing the things that youlike doing is easy to do, and it's incrementallybeneficial to you, like you, don't like this is I'm to park it back to that,and I guess we could finish up her in a little bit but like there's, this huge problem in today'ssociety, where the like the type of risk you have totake on in order to make a career shift, is monumental. There's no way to start a hobby find time to participate in that hobby.Engage in the community and understand like got try to try and absorb wisdomfrom that community on how to like, be good at that hobby contribute small pieces of content toit, learn so on and so forth and the if that, if that hobby is differentiated in any way to at yourcurrent career path, is you don't have the time to do any of those things andlike and whatever little time you do? There's no way to get any type of like contribution to you like the bottomline to your life and the process of doing that. It has to be done throughper joe and Alteris or like therapy or whatever you want to call it right andso, like. I think what we're trying to do in a lot of ways is provide ways inwhich people can start to contribute and things they're interested in and get incrementally paid for theircontribution to that to those things they'reinterested in, so that that shift of...

...going from I'm doing this thing, Idon't really enjoy, but I'm good at to pay the bills to I do all the thingsthat I enjoy and it pays the bills or like the transition from those twothings is, I think, are very important like identifying. What you think you'denjoy is a very difficult process, becausethat changes throughout the life of somebody so like if we have ways ofpeople to contribute to communities and get paid for them commensurate to theircontribution, yeah and whatever communities that they wantto be part of, then it allows people to explore like who they are and what theywant to be doing and be dynamic, and that type of thing we're like I'm goingall in on this one thing. I hope it's the right thing, because I'm going tohave to do. Do it thrust my life yeah yeah, I know exactly I mean this is theyou know the future of work right? This is, I hope, that's what it is. That'swhat I want like that's the world that I want to try and work towards, and Ithink that we're very much aligned in that type of thing, and I oh yeah yeah,and I think the oil is naturally shifting that way too, which is nice.The my push is also like hey. We should reward people that are doing you know,contributions to society and then maybe even be able to like better judgethings that are contribit to society that still make a lot of money. Youknow like like building extra weapons, maybe he shouldn't be a rewarded asmuch as is not like. I don't know if we need that next tank, you know, andthese other things it'd be nice to have more of a fair balance between likeallowing allowing people also say: Hey, actually, there's these societal goodsthat have value to so, let's value those needs as well. You know, that's, that's the that's the one thingI want to, but do thanks for having me this is fun. Really, Love Love Your podcast ofcourse, though its fun down here I didn't. I do it for he conversations.That's really got into a.

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