Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 13 · 4 years ago

Hashing It Out #13: Logan Brutsche – Crypto Primitives Class

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today Corey and Collin talk with Logan Brutsche, the creator of ToastyCoin, about the concept of “cryptoeconomic primitives.” He is setting up an academy to walk people through what those are, and how to start making them in a collaborative manner to push the blockchain community forward in a secure and safe manner. Come listen and learn, then join his academy and learn more.

Links:  – Reddit thread: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/8smqe0/creating_useful_dapps_is_easier_than_people_think/ – Website: http://cpacademy.io/

Entering. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology and the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks once again. Hello, this is episode thirteen pashing it out. Today we're here with Logan Bruci, developer in the etherium space that's going to start an academy focused on cryptoprivatives. And just so I don't butcher it, why don't you say hello to our guests at first off, as always, calling cuche say what's up? What's up, my trustee cohost, always here with me, Logan. Won Don't you give us a quick introduction as to who you are, where you came from and what you're doing and why you think it's important? Yeah, sure, so, yeah, my name is Logan and I'm all around read at As coin op Logan. That tends to be by moniker wherever I'm at. and well so, as I said, I'm working on an academy right now. It'll start this Monday with the seminars, and before I get into that, I guess I'll go into where I came from. So I went to the devcom before this last one, so that's about two years ago now, and before I went there I made a smart contract called a burnable payment, and we'll probably talk about that a little later in this podcast. But and ever since then I've been focused on trying to make very simple contracts that focus on game theory. And you know, I think that a lot of the projects in this space are way too monolithic. They try to build these huge systems that are are so large that no one really feels under percent confident that there's no bugs in it, that they'll actually work as they're supposed to, and then you can bind out with like these these long road maps and large funding rounds and we're still waiting on a product for, in my opinion, the vast majority of these things. So that pushed me to try to aim for simplicity and on the road to where I am now, which starting this academy, I've worked on toasty coin which, if people keep up with the etherium subed that they might have seen my post about experimenting with those and it's a way of outsourcing labor. So I sort I you know, I'm a bit scatter brain here. Where do you want to start with all that stuff? Hmm, let's talk about what toasty coin is that. We're going to talk about all of those things, probably in depth here, but let's start off with what toasty coin is and why you think it's important. Okay, yeah, so toasty coin first of all as a website, Toastycincom, and if you have met a mask installed, you can go use it. And what toasty coin is is it's an interface to rather simple smart contract called a burnable payment, and if you get a toasty point, you can create these payments, you can search through them and you can interact with them. And what you'd use these burnable payments for is to outsource any kind of task. So in a way it's similar to eath Lance or fiber or any of those work outsourcing sites. But because of the game theory in a burnable payment, you actually skip a lot of the steps. So you know what? Example that I have used a burnable payment for is to fix a single bug in my code. I opened up a burnable payment and I said, Hey, I have this bug. I don't know what's going on with it and I was quite frustrated with it. I just wanted to hand it off. So I did find piece of work. I put the ether into the burnable payment and I put it out there and I effectively just went to sleep and walk up and somebody had committed to the payment and they've done the work before. I didn't have to meet them. Crucially, I didn't have to go through any kind of, you know, application process, I didn't have to screen candidates. It was sort of done for me almost magically. It felt quite magical. So and we can talk about the Game Theory on that a little bit, but before getting right into that, toasty coin is the interface to these burnable payments. So those are the two core aspects of what I would say is the the poster child for what I'm working on now. And you and so what? What kind of frames all of this and why? Put toasty coin is an example of is what you call a crypto primitive. Can You? Can you kind of describe your definition of a fatal primitive in general? Yep, and so,...

...to be the day, think it's a cryptoeconomic primitive, although certainly I could imagine it being shortened to crypto primitive as time goes on. But but what I would say the full term is this crypto economic primitive. And one of the interesting things about this term. Well, first of all it's it's really new. You'll hear it, you know, spoken of that conferences and but nobody seems to be an expert on it. And what's interesting is people seem to independently come to a lot of the same core principles and some of it falls right out of the name. So, for example, it's a crypto economic primitive, and the primitive part speaks to the fact that it's a very simple building block that really can't get any simpler without sacrificing the core utility. And then the first part of that phrase, the cryptoeconomic part, it's a little bit more familiar in the industry right now, and that just talks about cryptoeconomics. So when you take you know, the traditional fields of cryptography and economics, you know, Vitalik defined it quite well, I think, the term cryptoeconomics and he said that cryptography gives us guarantees about the past. You know, this person assigned something or or you know this thing was encrypted at this state, you know, and so on, and economics gives us strong guarantees about the future. You know, we can sort of, you know, get people certain interests and incentives and they are likely to do something. So he sort of defines cryptoeconomics as a unity of those two things, where we can simultaneously make these provable claims about the past while also setting up incentives for the future. So that's cryptoeconomics, and cryptoeconomics is used to course, in designing etherium and especially in designing Casper and the proof of stake and all that. And then so just wrap it all up again, the primitive part just speaks to we're really building the the you know, the low level building blocks that others could then build on top of it. And so that's one. That's sort of the base level understanding of a cryptoeconomic primitive, and that has some some consequences, and I would say the first consequence is that these cryptoeconomic primitives are pretty much by definition, non proprietary, because if you imagine two versions of let's say this burnable payment, for example, and and again we can get into that what that actually does, how that works. Any time you guys want but let's say that it's two versions of this burnable payment. One of them is the proprietary and it takes a profit and it sends it back to the Creator, and the other one is nonprofit. It doesn't take a profit and nobody owns it. Now, if you look at those two and you say which one is more primitive, it's pretty clear that the one without the fee is the more primitive and more useful. So when we talk about cryptoeconomic primitive, the there's really no way to make one that is proprietary or one that captures any sort of profit, because as soon as you do that, somebody else could go make a better one, a more primitive one. And you know it doesn't take a genius to see that the simpler one without the profit taking mechanism is going to be more useful in and in every other context except for the you know, these imaginary owners that might make profit. Let's see. So some other characteristics, as I see them, of a cryptoeconomic primitive. As I've been hinting, they are really good for building larger systems. So these burnable payments, I've demonstrated them as standalone products, but you could also build something larger or more specific out of that. For example, you can make a ridesharing service that uses in the background burnable payments, and the reason that you'd want to do that it is because the burnabal payment themselves have have proven their utility already, and so if you want to make a ride sharing APP, you can sort of forget about certain aspects of the transaction. You know, you don't have to worry too much about whether someone really intends to pay. You know what if someone tries to back out of the deal, all these all these issues are solved by the burnamal payment itself, by that cryptoign on primitive. So you can take that and then build your ride sharing app on top of it, in the same way that you can sort of take the ees twenty to can and build something on that without worrying too much about whether it'll work or not. Yeah, so you alluded to this in the slack channel and it's kind of the the motivation behind why this isn't a big deal right now, or maybe in the Reddit Post that you put is that, like usually, necessity is the mother of a vicion and these types of things only get created when a platform tries to do something, but can't do it. So it has to then make these crypto primitives as a part of their platform first before it can actually then build something on top of it. And since there's no like, like you said, the most general form, the actual primitive form, usually isn't proprietary,...

...there isn't a lot of incentive to build these types of things. Hence we don't have them, because all it is is basic functionality of what you can do within the rule set of a blockchain system like etherium. And then it's just a kind of a move in simple bug proof way of building building blocks. And then you can make those building blocks put them together to make larger and larger applications that have ind user functionality. So right, what you're trying to do here is basically create a community of people who are true who develop these things as a method that could because they are simpler. By definition, they should. They should be as simple as possible. You hope to build a community that focuses on building these primitives so that it moves the entire space forward. I mean the arc twenty standardization move the space forward drastically because it's simplified. The creation of a token and a lot of people to build around it. This is a very similar thing. If you if you take the primitives that are tried and true and everyone understands how they work, you can build multiple applications on top of them, as well as the translation mechanisms between those applications, because everyone agrees on how to do it right. Yeah, that's right. And you know one example of a cryptoconomic primitive that we don't have. That should be really very simple to build, and in fact I think I'm going to focus on that for one or two of the weeks at the academy. Here is a subscription management contract. So if you could imagine that you put money into a contract and then you can approve certain builders to take money out of it, that would simplify a lot of the you know that the headache of setting up some kind of service that takes ether as payment. You would have to build two interfaces on that. You have to build an interface for the biller and you'd have to build an interface for the for the owner of the contract, the person who's actually putting their money in there. But then this contract could allow you to put money in monitor it if you set up a simple server which course that's outside of the crypto economic primitive, because then you got to worry about fund even the server. But the server could then send out email notifications. But nobody's made that yet, and the reason nobody's made it is that nobody can make money off of making that. And so so, yeah, this this academy that I want to set up. You know, I brand it as an academy for Education and I and that is sort of the primary offering. But what I really expect to get out of it, and a lot of people ask me why I'm doing this, because I'm not making any money, all right, and and and the why? Yeah, exactly, and the why for me is that it will result in a community who is learning together how to make these crypto economic primitives. And as soon as we make, you know, two or three or four on our own. And again, these are my birdmal payment contract is less than two hundred line solidity and the first version was you could see it all on one page. This is this is really simple stuff. The subscription manager contracts probably even even simpler. And as soon as we do two or three or four of these, we test these out. You know, these are things that, as we build them, we'll be able to say this should be useful, effective and will build them. They either will or won't be, but it's not going to take us very long before we're really starting to explore a whole new field, and it's one that's worth exploring. And then, on top of all that, the things that we will build, because they're just smart contracts and extremely light interfaces. They're immortal. That's that's something I like to highlight about toasty cooin and burnable payments. You know, from the traditional perspective it's not a success because there's no users right now. But I don't pay any server costs for that and that will forever be available as a tool on eitherium and it's a useful too. I've used it too. As I said, I solved the bug and many others. If anyone's interested, they can go to toasty cooincom slash brows and they'll be able to see all of the completed payments on there. So and that will exist forever as long as people can find a job of script interface, which right now is on a get have pages, and as long as there's a single user on eitherium. So as we move forward and we develop and discover and learn more about these primitives. We will also just be steadily adding onto the utility of etherium, with no talk of Tokens. You know, you don't need to hold a certain token to use these things. It will just be a base level of functionality that any user can get into and then, as well, any developer can include in their own, you know, wild dreams for for what they want to use etheroreum for. That's that was my next question, because that's the crypto economics. Jacob Horne wrote an article about the it's called the emergence of Cryptoeconomic primitives on medium. He's from coin base and he has somewhat of a similar, different definition a lot of these things, but it seems as though there is, there's always an economic insensive to how these work. It's part of the name and I'm curious as to like,...

...when building these things, as particular on Atherium, should it ever make sense to create a proprietory token to the primitive itself, or should it always be functioned on the base layer etherium token? It's a good question and I the only answer I could confidently say is that the inclusion of a token should not be part of the definition. I think we rely on tokens too much. I think there's places for them. I think that when I was creating learnable payments, people would ask me or suggest that I should build in a token somehow and I for a while I was really trying to solve that problem and looking back, it was because I knew that if I solve that problem I would also be able to monetize it. And you know, when you're working on something and you just want to see a built, the desire to fund it. It's not a greedy desire, you just want to build it faster and make it sustainable. But if I try to put tokens into Britable payments they would not be as useful. Right now, you couldn't just go to toastalcincom with Meta mask and use it. You would have this extra step of going and buying a token in that is a pain in the ass. I mean there's these. There's a radar relay. We're RDAR relay. Excuse me, you know the that decentralized exchange, but that's not easy to use, although it is fast. And then there's other exchanges and then you have to worry about the counterparty risk of all that, I whenever I go to adapt and they have their own token and I have to go by the token, I get so frustrated because if they just built it with etherium, I mean maybe they wouldn't have gotten funding and maybe they wouldn't have even built it because they didn't get funding. You know. So so I suppose I can't really blame them, but at the same time it's so disappointing when I go and I try to use a tool and now I have to go by some other token. So I I I'm not ready yet to say that a cryptoeconomic primitive should not contain a token. I do certainly lean, you know, in the direction of that opinion. That and and I do have a lot of skepticism for tokens. I mean I'll just he'll put it that generally. Yeah, I'm right there with you. I don't see how much utility they actually provide a lot of the time, I mean really they, like you said, their method for bypassing traditional funding mechanisms. Very rarely do they offer their own value proposition. So that's all I get. Yeah, yeah, and of course the theory of my Seeo. You know, that's an example of where a token is justified. I suppose you could say because the token is part of the machine. And, you know, a metaphor I often give people when I'm trying to explain the possible benefit of ICO is that, you know, imagine you're building a roller coaster and to raise money you start selling tickets. It's like a golden tickets. You can sell it, take it will give anyone who has them, you know, twenty free rides when it's done. That's sort of, you know, a metaphor for an ICO. That makes sense because the token that you're giving away actually will have a utility within the system. But most of the iceos we see today don't offer that that, you know, that tight coupling of owning the token and using the system. It's it seems to more often be some sort of charate of that rather than than, you know, legitimate kind of connection there. Yeah, one thing I'm still waiting to see from tokens in mass is something where the token itself has its own issuance process which is separate from atherium itself in that the way that the system is built, it creates new tokens in awards. New Tokens dynamically in those tokens of fluctuating value based off of the theium, but a lot of the Times it's pretty much packed. And so yeah, right there with you. Yeah, all right, before we get into what the academy will be offering around this crypto cripple of another primitive colon, do you have anything else in terms of like discussion around what a crypto economic primitive is in the first place? I mean I need more examples. I think I get the the Vernibal coin a little bit. I mean I'm kind of like, well, I'll explain that a bit more, because I think that really will highlight what the power of these things can be. So the the rules of a burnable payment is that, as the there's there's two roles. First of all, there's the pair and then there's the recipient, and when the burnable payment is is started the but the payer starts the burnable payment and there is no recipient set. So it's open. It's out there ready for anybody to pick up. And when you open one of these you have two main decisions to make. You how much money do you put in, and then you have to set how much money the recipient will have to put in as sort of a deposit if they want to become the recipient. So it's out there and let's say you put let's say I want someone to write a report on some white paper and I don't have time, so I'm going...

...to say, okay, I'm going to put three hundred dollars out on this burnable payment and to become the worker for this job, the recipient, you have to put in your own fifty and once they do that it moves to a committed state and what that means is I can't get the money back anymore. So now there's three hundred fifty dollars in this payment. I cannot get it back anymore as the sorry I being the buyer and the only person who has a claim to that is now the recipient. And the reason it's called a burnable payment is that even though I can't get it back, I can still burn it. So you can sort of imagine that now the recipient has this coupon, that they have a pretty good guarantee that they can trade that in for the ether in the payment. But I might, I could go up to it with a lighter literally burn this coupon. That's that's my power as as the payer. So the game theory at that stage, when it's committed, means that, because they put their own money in, they are facing a loss if they don't satisfy my demand, whatever my demand was, which is part of the vertibal payment. I put in some text there saying what I want and and they know that if they do please meet, then they stand to game quite a bit. And so and and the sort of the overview and and if you have some questions, please ask them, but you know the immediately have some questions. So why would somebody want to burn their money when so yeah, so as some switch don't require burning your money. Yeah. So I would say that it's not so much that you want to burn your money, but you want to put your money into a smart contract, into a game where there is an option to burn, because you know that once the other player starts playing, they will. They don't want to get it burned either, but it is a real threat and sort of putting your money in this game where you both are you know you're looking at this game tree. In fact, if you go to tosty COINCOM and you click on there's a link near the top called Game Theory, it goes through and more rigorously proves all of this. But if you look down this game tree and you say, you know, you try to figure out what will happen if I do this and he does that and everything else, you'll see that very rarely will you have to burn the money because, remember, they the work, or whoever they are, they decided to put their money into this crazy game. And in the first place, this isn't just a random Guye. It's a specific kind of person and it's the person who put their money in. And the only reason they would think that to do that is because they think they're going to get more money out, which indicates they think that they're going to they're going to satisfy you and convince you to release the money. So that is why the payer wants to put the money in. It's because he's sort of dangling some bait out there, knowing that if a fish bites you know, the fish being worker, then the worker is going to sort of buy definition almost definitely do the work. And that's why this guy, you know, signed up and fixed bug for me. It was it was done within twenty four hours. He puts up his money. Why Yep, see, he puts up his money because that is that is the only way in which he can become the worker. So there's three states to it. The last state is closed, so that it means it's done. So we can ignore that. So the first two states are opened and committed. When it's open, that means no, there's no worker yet. I've just said the work I want done. My money is in there. In an addition, I can take it back when it's open. So I can cancel it any time until it moves to commit it. And the only way that it moves to committed is somebody out there saw this, they put their own money in and sort of, you know, in an atomic action, immediately they are now the worker. I can't get the money back, but I can still burn or release it and they get their money back. If you decide to burn. No, well, depends. I can burn part of it. I can. I can choose to burn however much I want. So back to our example of you know, three hundred, three hundred dollars for as a payment for reading this white paper, and then the fifty more dollars that they put in because they want to they want to do that work. So now there's three hundred fifty dollars in there. And so let's say that they've done that and then they they give me a report, but it's a really shitty report. You know. Let's say I asked for like an hour report and it's clear they it seems to me they've only spent like five minutes on it. They don't know what they're talking about. I could choose them to burn everything except for the deposit. I could also choose to burn fifty percent. I could choose to burn a little bit and and send a message saying hey, you know, I need a little bit more, or it could choose to wait. You know, that's all up to me. But but sort of the simple answer your question is that it is possible, based on the payer's decision, that the deposit that they put in will be lost to them. But but I say lost because it's I don't you know, the pair never gets any of the money back, and that's also essential to the game theory. The worker knows that as soon as they put their deposit in they have this claim to the money that the only reason that they won't get that is if they really kind of pissed the payer off. Nobody wants to burn money. And and you know why does the pair burn money? When the when the work is not done? We can get into that as sort of a but it. But the Game Theory is quite strong.

Seeah, go back to them and say, Hey, if you want this full amount, you got to revise and add like ten more pages to your right work or something like that. So there's a risk involved with just signing up for these projects. Yes, they well, yeah, definitely. There's a risk for this for both sides, and the only way that people can be maximalized, their maximize happiness, let's just call it. Yeah, is if both parties behaving good faith. That's right, that's the only way they can win the game. And Game Theory. Let's say somebody is suffering severely from Dunnan Krueger Syndrome and they sign up. Yeah, you don't get to select who signs up. So your risk is pretty high. As somebody's burning I don't know if I would say it's high, but it's there and it's unavoidable as well. If I throw my money out there and I wait for someone to sign up, I could have someone that signs up and does shit work. And in fact that's happened to me. So I've tested out probably by now, maybe twenty of these burnable payments in about you know, I started out with just for when I just had the contract with no interface, and I did I don't know, maybe fifteen more the second time and then, you know, a few more here and there. But if I ask, I've noticed certain trends and and this is part of you know, this gets back to my belief that we need a lot of research into this stuff, because I really learned a lot about how these can be effective. And one of the things I've learned is that if you ask for something that's more artistic or subjective, that tends to blow up in your face. So I asked for a Hiku about learnable payments just to see if that would work, and the guy submitted something that didn't even didn't even, you know, follow the rules of a Hiku. You know, there's a certain syllable requirement. He didn't even follow that, so I burned it. But that was definitely a doning Krueger, you know, Syndrome. So there is a risk using this, although I will say that I about two thirds of my burnable payments worked and I was really deliberately testing the limits of this system. You know, I there's no real other reason I'd ask for a coup about burnable payments and but but I would also say that a lot of the systems we use today, especially in cryptocurrency, carry analogous, analogous risks. And so if you go to a dark net market and you order some massid or whatever, and in fact this happened to me, I mean maybe it didn't happen to me, happened to somebody I know. So somebody I know. We have very young ears on this audience. First of all, yeah, okay. Well, anyway, when you go to these darknet markets, the general you of course you always run the risk of ordering something and then that vendor, even though they have, let's say, five years of good reviews, just chooses at that moment to do an exit scam. That happens and that hack. That happened. I'll just say it happened to me, you know, I'm just going to go out there to say it, but that happened to me and that was a risk of the system. And yet people still use these systems and I would still use I haven't actually used those since then, but I would still go and use the dark knight market, even knowing that there's a risk there. And in a similar risk is that with exchanges. You know that when you go and use an exchange, is as long as your money is on that exchange, even if you only have it on there for an hour, you might just have really bad luck and then they do an exit scam right there and suddenly you've lost your money. So there are these risks with these systems, but we still use them. And that is the case with these burnable payments. Something I want to want to point out. I just as watered yourself a little bit. Just you know, I want, I hope you want, to be employed something. Yeah, well, that's a fact of life. I suppose. Something important to this, this concept in general, and I don't want to, I don't want to get too far away from like the concept of crypt and other primitives, is that a lot of what y'all just discussed is an implementation detail that would be built on top of the actual primitive. Now, the iteration of the primitive is important so that you can figure out and make sure that the game theory is sound and solid. So you have kind of you have versioning of the primitive to make sure that you're getting the most general agnostic form of the encapsulates the behavior you're trying to solve with this primitive, and then the implementation on top. Can do all that other type of stuff, like making sure that when you when you post a job, you're very explicit in the type of job and the demands in which you need so that the person who applies for that thing understands what he needs to do to do it so that everyone's happy. The primitive is nothing to do with that. It has to do with the implementation of that primitive. So but once like you said earlier, there isn't an incentive to make sure or there's an a lot of research around, which we've just learned from your discussion the game theory around these these primitives. Want to make sure that we build something, there's a community around it that's asking the same type of questions. Call and just asked to make sure that the game around it is solid so that when you build something using a primitive, you don't have to worry about the counterparty risk associated with that engagement.

It's no longer an implementation detail, capturing the behavior of moving money from one person to another based on some subset of assumptions. That's absolutely right. Yeah, how do you differentiate this between and ask this in ans grow. So in escrow, first of all, that the biggest differences that escrow requires a third person. So even if we could snap our fingers and magically bringing a third person to the table, and that is our scrow agent or whatever, and who knows if this is a person or a group of people or some sort of system, in any case we need that third party there. So there's two problems with that. First of all, you got to find them, which means we have to build a system that draws them in and somehow incentivizes them to show up. And then the other problem is that now we have of this third whole entity that we have to sort of now our game theory is in fact more complex. We have to sort of worry about what they do. And you know, escrow is a solid system. I don't mean to bash it at all, but it is, you know, from certain angles, that is more complex than a burnable payment and it has more more you know, more unknowns. You have to it's more implementation. You have to really figure out how you're going to build this scrow. We're going to find would be built on top of a Bernabal payment, meaning that if you were to hire a third party, you might use a burn wal payment system to do that. You certainly could. I mean, and you know, I think that's again one of the beauties of these the fact that it is a cryptoeconomic primitive. You can throw it in as part of a you know, really throw it in. I mean cashual. I mean, you know, someone has to build it, as suppose, but but there's a certain you know, there's a certain set of things you don't have to worry about and you can still just throw this into some mixture with a escrow. And if you you know an escrow, could you sort of call that its own cryptoeconomic primitive, although maybe it's more of an economic primitive. But in any case, we can take these two and mix them together and whether one's on top of the other or there's somehow, you know, mixed at the same level, we can build something more powerful out of them. Yeah, so basically would be like, Hey, I'm looking for a you know, judge injury for this particular task. This is the task, this is the criteria you're going to be the third party. Here's a Vertibal vertibal payment. Then that person has to create a burnmal payment for the person is actually going to fulfill that task and then their judge in jury, and then the judge in jury doesn't get paid unless you're happy, and so there's kind of like this whole third party baked into the system. You just chain the primitive Yep. Yeah, and and one of the ways you could use these vernimal payments, which I think is sort of what you're talking about a little bit, is that you could, you'd will, you said, you can chain them together. So I could actually make a birnimal payment where I'm really looking for the project manager and he signs up for that and then he makes a bunch of other burnable payments to actually get the specific tasks done, and that would that would work for everyone involved. It work for me because I could forget about the task and work for him because he has this guarantee of money, a strong game pioretical guarantee of money, and it works for the workers because they all, you know, show up for these tiny will tasks that they know what they can do. I think it's important to kind of kind of recap a lot of this and that cryptonomic and Cryptoeconomic primitives Blah, is kind of like minimized, encapsulated behavior on on this systems. Right, it's it you want to make sure and it's the standardization of that behavior. And so yeah, that's great, it's a good, good phrasing it that you really one of the sure. Go ahead. Sorry, I didn't know you're still tize. Sorry, our EARC S and ear s S. are they are you consider them crypto economic primitives? I don't know. They're I have a feeling like they're not specific enough. They really just standards. It's not a yeah, that's a standard because there's no real behavior. It doesn't not a relation here has to be son a day like yeah, that's the Sensepe of Multi Party incentivization scheme likex. I would say a like a multi sig wallet would be Echo Cryptoeconomic privative. Yes, I agree completely. Or another simple example is that a splitter. So if I make a contract that accepts money and it sends fifty percent to one person fifty percent of the other person, that's another cryptoeconomic primitive. We don't have a name for that. But in Party, in party splitter, right, and so yeah, yeah, and so when you have these things standardize and built, you can almost build up a package manager of different types of behaviors that are allowed in a system and then bring them into the application you're trying to do based on the different types of behaviors that your APP is trying to have. Right. Yeah, so you don't have to worry about the implementation details to make sure you get that behavior right, because there's a lot of work around just making sure they nail that behavior through the it, or is it the iteritive process of building the primitive itself? And right now that doesn't exist. And so the academy that you're setting up is an attempt to try and create that community so that...

...there's research involved with understanding and having solid, well defined and, I guess, expected results from certain types of behaviors within the community on like a atomistic level. Absolutely, yeah, yeah, and you know this what I see this academy. Well, well, let's talk about the Word Academy just for a second, because academy can sort of mean a school, but it can also mean sort of a place of scientific inquiry. You know, and that both of those things are sort of the two pillars that I see as supporting what I'm doing here. We're all going to be working together and focused on this concept of a CRYPTOC and I'm a primitive that you know. I've given you guys my definition of what that is, but it's really we're all still still kind of figuring it out, but we all, it seems like a lot of people have this feeling like it's going to be important. And what you were talking about a package manager. We don't really have an authority that. You know, I can't think of a website that I can go to and it'll be like, oh, here's a multi stick, you know, here's a splitter contract, here's this and here's that, and and every single one on that list is, first of all, non proprietary and it's also useful and relatively proven. I don't think that that really exists. So one of the things that I see the crypto primitive academy providing is you can almost call it a name space where we had our we're generating this culture and a process and a system for getting to that point where we have a list of things that work, like a burnable payment or like a multisigory. All this stuff you know the parody multisig. You know know that the FIASCA with that. So it would be nice if, almost in response, we could say no, this is a multisig and we're pretty sure we can't get any simpler than this and at is still be effective. So that's you know, a specific thing I see the academy eventually producing is that will. It is centralized. I me, you know, it's kind of a dirty word, but its centralized, trusted repository of these tools that a developer could then comes go through and say I'll take that and that, and then, of course, the stuff to do a bit of research. But they can sort of someone easily put them together because they're built to be put together. So do you consider auction platforms or auction contracts to be something that is primitive, or do you consider them to be a little too complex? Because I wanted to do it like if I want to do a victory auction contract is auctioning is a dynamic system. Are People to put up their money and in return, multiple, you know, multiple people take an opportunity to acquire whatever that asset is and then they, you know, basically get that asset if they are the best better or meet the minimum criteria for the best been. Yeah, well, the I think auctions. Also, ICOS ARE OUR CRYPTOECONOMIC primitives. I mean, although it's it's hard to you know, when we say cryptoeconomic primitive, you know, do we want that to mean sort of a class of thing, like can we say an ICO is a cryptoeconomic primitive? Or, and this is a question I'm opening up, you know, or should we be striving more for that's not a cryptoeconomic primitive. A cryptoeconomic primitive is a specific ICO or it's a specific was a term that you used for the auction, a specific type of auction? Yeah, vicry action, vickory action. So you might have a vickory auction cryptoconomic primitive, and that's just like a specific piece of code. And we might have version numbers. I actually imagine that we would have code names, because a version number implies that there's a strict tree, are strict lineage, and if everyone can modify everything, you know that the version numbers might not be as salient as a some sort of code name that actually hints at the the actual modification. But anyway, so that yeah, I don't know whether we should really make a cryptoeconomic means something specific, a specific piece of code, or whether it can also apply to some sort of class. I would I would pull from, I would pull from, like I'm a physicist by trade. That's what I did my phd and things like that, and by so having that type of background, your automatically naturally reductionist. Like. So I want to decompose everything into its fundamental like units as much as possible. And when you talk about whether or not something as a cryptonomic primitive, you have to ask a lot of the questions. I'm like, what can we take away while maintaining the core functionality, or is there is this built up of multiple pieces of cryptnomer comprimatives, and so you have to then continuously decompose whatever you're asking it to a point where it doesn't function anymore, no longer serves the purpose to what that thing is. It's so you can league and so that's simple. Let's that's the that's the atomistic thing, and the once you get to a point of do it no longer works or doesn't serve a function whatsoever. And in terms of like, if you take this from a literature standpoint, it's no longer a sentence that makes sense, then it's no longer a thing, it's no longer a...

...primitive. But if you continue to deconstruct something so that you can have full sentences that make full sense in our terms the relationship of moving money M or behavior of two people in a contract, then you have a primitive. And so that's kind of the open question, because there's a lot of research here, is how much can we break these things down into their actual primitives? And then you have research along what is an actual primitive in the process of trying to do that. Yeah, and and course, part of the work in the progress that I think we'll see is we'll start to define new terms. So, you know, right now we're talking about what a cryptoeconomic primitive is, and then we're sort of also splitting hairs like well, is it this or is it that? And however we end up and sing those questions, it'll probably involve further terms. You know, this is a general crypt now imprimtive, this is a cryptoeconomic implementation. You know, we might might come up with terms like that. So that'll be part of what we'll have to focus on and work on and what. Yeah, so like out of all this. I kind of I like at first I was like, Oh, this is you know, auction will be a primitive. But no, actually a bid would be a primitive. Around would be a primitive. A place would be a bit of you know, putting something up would be a would a would be a primitive, and those all could combine together to produce a victory action or any other kind of market. It doesn't matter. As long as you have these primitives, you can build any type of market place that can operate on primitive. Yeah. So, unless you guys have any person question, I think we could maybe talk about the the academy and how we actually tend to get started. I was about to try and make that, make that transition myself. So great job, sweet all right. So the well there probably the most important information is that we are going to have a seminars live and I have yet to announce any kind of link on that. But if it will suddenly back up a little bit, CEP Academy dial is the website. So if you go there you can find all the links that you'll need. And the schedule, which we've just nailed down, is every weekday on UTC. One thousand eight hundred so that's when each seminar worth start and they'll be about an hour or two long and they will also be archive. So don't worry if you can't make any particular episode. We're going to do it through twitch, we think, because it seems like that will offer our tyving as well as chat and as part of these seminars, anybody who comes can and ask questions and as long as they aren't too low level. You know, I'm not going to be answering questions about objectory to programming basics, for example, but you know, as long as they're sort of above that threshold, we're going to try to answer all the questions we can and each week will be focused on a particular cryptoeconomic primitive, although the first weeks a little weird because it'll be more of an intro into all the tools where we're using and kind of setting up all the contest epical so of us were example. Yeah, exactly. So like Wednesday, for example, is going to be an overview, a fuller overview, of toast, Ecoin, burnable payments and how that can sort of serve as a poster child for a cryptoeconomic primitive. And what is that term? Even mean. So really probably be repeating a lot of the conversation we have here. And and so each week day will be a particular focus on whatever project is that week. So Monday's are the solidity design and Tuesday's are the interface design. When day Wednesday's typically are sort of moving the whole project to a proof of concept phase where it actually works. And let me just see, I have the schedule right here. Thursdays will be like modification, so we'll take a look at what we've built and say what can we change to make it better or different, and then the Fridays will focus on Polish to make it may be easier to use for the users. And then at the end of every week I'm going to make a blog post that sort of summarizes everything we've done and puts link links in, maybe highlights anything that the students have done themselves wealth and and then also answers any questions that were asked during the week in a fuller way if they seem to deserve more explanation. So that will all start this Monday at again eighteen hundred UTC. That is pretty dope. I like that this episode should go out tomorrow or Sunday. So you're going to be able to catch on to that pretty quickly. Hopefully you aren't like a standard academic in this syllabus day. So yeah, no, so I'd actually like to. I really think that's amazing. I think I think what you're doing is fantastic. I really like the education aspect of it and I like the fact there's interactions. So pretty cool. Yeah. Well, and you know another a big motivation of this academy is, I have gotten this since for a while now, over the past six months, there's a large untapped and I say this in the Reddit Post, which is you can find that on the blog of a legal subside if anyone wants to read. Yeah, linked to the great there's a huge untapped pool of developers who are competent developers and they're experienced and they are interested in dapt development and smart contract development, but when they...

...go out and look for things to build, I think that they'll typically to find tutorials that are way too long. I think even even cryptosombies is too long and too complicated, or they're so academic and they talk about creating tokens, for example, but they don't talk about how you use those tokens and so and and you have this wealth of information about how to build things, but it doesn't really make sense quickly. I mean it's a difficult subject anyway, but there's very little information about what to build and why to build it, and certainly also a lack of direct personal guidance. So this pool of developers, I think they would be ecstatic to cut their teeth effectively on Cryptoeconomic primitives. I mean, these are things that matter and these are things that, if you build it right, could be immortal. I mean any any student can come on here and if they're a quickly learner, they could. They could stamp their name on something that will last year's, I mean possibly longer, as an essential building block to Sivil different systems. Well, there's an aspect to building these things that I mean people are looking for work, right. That's why these things aren't built, because they want to build a project that makes money, so that build token and so on so forth. But those, there's a subtle aspect of building things like this that gives you clout and marketability when people build on top of it. If you're the man that creates a CRYPTOMOC Irenom a primitive or the person around the majority of the discussion of the development of that cryptoconomic primitive. Guess who's going to try and contact you when they try and build a nap using it? You then becomes of the fact of a standard of working for them or telling them how to do it, which is an essence a job. And so there's a lot. There's a market to this type of thing, but it's not an immediately applicable market and the understanding of the behaviors that go into making that cryponomic primitive make you better to understand think what can be done in a system like this. So it makes you just a better user, a better understand reasoner on why to use block chains to do any type of thing that you want to do and what's capable, and that's that's sense, what's possible and what the obstacles are and how you would go about building it. Absolutely and and speaking of cloud you know, the sort of a final piece of the puzzle of my academy here is that I'm going to be I'm going to be accrediting people. You know, it's funny. Nobody's going to care about this creditation at first. It's just a smart contract that stamps people's identities with, you know, some sort of, you know, accolades. But the hope is that together we can build a system. There's academy, you know, I'm I'm I'm the I'm the the, the creator of this, but I'm certainly not in charge of it going forward. It is that we can create a system that pumps out these CRYPTOCONOMIC primitives, as I've said, but also produces this community of experts that are recognized as such and can provide their wisdom to people. And you know, whether that's how I'm doing it, which is sort of for free it's moment, or or whether that's, you know, from more of a career building, money making angle, it's all valuable and so and one of the first contracts will work on is a very simple version of that accreditation contract. That's actually going to be will do the first week. It's sort of a kind of a dumb down version of it, and then we'll revisit it maybe a few weeks later. Very cool. All right, I think that's great way to kind of wrap this up. Colony. Anything else? Just one thing. I mean, when you guys are creating these these primitives, I think there's probably one of the better books I've ever read and it's called radical markets. Actually, Corey told me about it. It's all has written a post on it. It's a it's a really good book by Eric Posner and Glen Wild and they's got some really cool ideas that also might lead to some more crypt economic privative. So it's our audience to deffitly check that book out and I really wish you could luck with this this acapany. I think it's awesome. And it was called wild markets. What would you see? Radical, radical, radical, Sun was something radical? All right. Well, thanks for coming on the show. I'm definitely going to be involved with this. I'll watch as many classes as I can as well as be participant in a slack because I think this is incredibly important work that drives the entire community, not just for a theium, but any thing that's that has a smart contenting, smart contracting language to it and allows us to see what we can use this technology for and the building blocks we can use that then build more and more complex applications, and that's that's kind of money right now, and the more understanding and confidence we can have and the primitives associated with these systems, the more confidence we can have with the APPS that are built on top of them, because right now, and something goes mainnet, people are real scared to use it and put money into it. If you have confidence in the things that are built that application, you might find a better user base because there's more confidence in us. Yeah, absolutely, I can. I agree completely and that's why I'm doing it and it was...

...great to be on guys, thanks for having me so much, of course. Well, talk to you, sir. All right, bye,.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (127)