Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 15 · 4 years ago

Hashing It Out #15: Ryan John King and Kristoffer Josefsson – FOAM

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We discuss with Ryan and Kristoffer from FOAM about their protocol which verifies location in a blockchain. Their innovative protocol uses LoRa, blockchain consensus, and a triangulation mechanism called Proof of Location to verify an agents location at a certain point in time. Using their proposed Crypto Spatial Standard, entities can report their location to the blockchain which agent devices known as "anchors" verify for use in consensus applications. Truly amazing technology with massive implications!

Entering. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blockchain infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. All right, episode fifteen of hashing it out. As always, I'm here with Colin Cucher. Say what's up? Calling. What's up, Colin? I'm Dr Corey Petty and today we are interviewing foam. We Have Ryan, the CEO, and Christophe or Christopher, the CTEO. Why don't you guys give us a quick introduction? Start with Ryan, then go with Christopher as to who you are, how you got in the space in what foam is y. So I'm Ryan, Co founder of phone and CDEO. Poem is a location protocol for blockchain. So every thinking about secure location standards and west of kind of verify things in the world. Started working on foam about three years ago, really thinking about how to come and cap sure the value of space and location using blockchain technology, and the project is kind of involved quite a bit through them and that's how I also came across Christopher in the early days of blockchain and reconnected the band. So yeah, my name is Christopher cteo foam. I have a background in mathematics and geometry in particular. I've been working in the blockchain space for about three four years now. I have a strong interest. Well, besides for mathematics and geometry, which sort of now starts playing in and foam, I have a self a strong interest in programming language theory and I'm an avid functional programmer, programming enthusiasts, and so foam I've been architecting the proof of location stack but also, sort of from bottom up, a functional programming stack around the theory. All right, I think a good way to start off, at least the introduction to what this is, because there's two people. You said earlier before we started, there's a couple layers to this before we even get into proof of location. But before we start getting into those technical layers, let's start with why the hell should we care about proof of vocation? Yeah, I agree. Question for the way we were approaching foam and how we started originally as thinking about you, to all the things people think about when anything about decentralization and the amazing apps that can bring, and we were always thinking about them in the Lens of the physical environment the city. So you know, ways to activate spaces, get tokens to people, all sorts of applications and we realized in all of them you kind of need some sort of fraud proofed mechanism to actually check things. That's why I have blockchains work and you actually need some sort of consensus on where things claim to be if they're going to be interacting with a smart contract, because smart contracts are autonomous. The execute permission of flee and GPS. That will cut it. It's trivial to Spoofer make up the GPS signal and it's not verifiable. But even more broadly, we realize there are no location standards at all in blockchain and so that's why we're have other elements the project like location encoding standards and these visualizer stack that we've built as a visual blockchain explorer. So we're really then trying to bring those locations tools and standards into blockchains and power developers and the proof of location aspect is what these kind of like the fraud proof hast. So what kind of early use cases are you identifying for this particular technology? So we have...

...a developer portal that we've launched, developer off filmed on space, where you can get access to the API and start building front end bapping tools. We already have some people doing that, for example a team called SPACER network. They're building are based and FT game and building on top of our standards. We have like a thunder team doing shared coworking spaces, also building into those standards, and we've made integrations with wallets like status, a uport and things like that. So that's really where the etherium users are using our tools to start. But we're also a part of a lot of constortion groups in different verticals like mobility and supply chain. Yeah, I kind of see a good starting point for a lot of this until, like a said, maybe the robustness or standardization has gotten more solidified or ossified. As a way for Gamers to incorporate location based benefits, bonuses something into the game that they have. I can take it like the odd the obvious example, I think, is like pokemon go, but blockchain version of that that has proof of location or some type of a tribute based on certain location the use you see kind of a similar route of like games incorporating this type of thing first, until industry standards become a little more robust and they start adopting it for things like supply chain or tracking certain as sects and the sensor data around that asset. Yeah, definitely. We actually spoke to some of the early workers at Niantic on Pokemon go and there's actually a real latent demand for more secure location services. So they've suffered an enormous amount of VPS scooping so that people can leave their phone at their table and characters are running around the city and they even had people hacking open treetmap to alter the geography to Chi and Chop Pokemon or generated and the team said they had a lot of amazing ideas for bringing them ad revenue to stores or proving all these things, but they had all these limitations of just nothing to the verify things or stock on spoofing that they felt like could actually even achieved the full vision of book a Mongo. So it's definitely gaming as a place that the protocol can start and it's a great use case for why location verification is needed. All right. Well then, let's let's move into a little more the technical side of these things. Like it's important that you say you you you're working on these things, that you're working on kind of trustless proof of location that doesn't require central authorities. How can we be sure that you can do that? How are you doing it that gives us that type of guarantee? Well, the we have kind of like two kinds of proof of location, and we call static and dynamic. Static is on like curating points of interest, things that don't move. So like that's based on the map and, for that reason, a token curative registry the full fledge. Dynamic prof location is based on triangulations and time synchronization protocols over radio as like an alternative to GPS, and because it's bidirectional, customers can kind of purchase claims about themselves, where GPS is purely possible. So it's kind of how we're approaching it. Can you be more specific, like say, if I world is too I say I wanted to contribute to the network. What I you do to get started and we went and is there something is is it you eventually see this as something as like a naive user contributing passively or somebody that needs to run a lot of incentivized nodes to then provide data to the entire network so that APPS can use built on top of it all. It's a completely imagined to be a permissionist system, so anybody can purchase the hardware and run the protocol. In the same way anyone can participate in the coiner etherium. So there's a lot of like radio enthusists and people running this kind of equipment already and we want to provide the incentive mechanisms to really build up the supply side. So there's an actual physical device associated with this protocol. Can you go into a little more about what that looks like? Yeah, so the protocols, the radio agnostic works works up to one...

...clock tick of synchronizing, but we're looking out right now staff of radio called low power wide area network radio, specifically when called Laura, and those goes up to like ten miles. That the ten year about your life. So there are the kind of devices that we're currently building on. Yeah, I've actually heard about that. That's pretty cool. I think I've the use case I've heard was most frequently. That is basically tracking cows in fields. So it's really cool to hear that that alternative use case for that kind of stuff. I know it's getting a lot of traction Europe especially. I think that's really neat and you guys are leveraging that technology. It's underutilized right now. What made you look into that in particular? We were just doing all the research of the kinds of radios available and Laura specifically, is permission this, so you don't need to pay a royalty fee to deploy it, and that's kind of why it has so many of these communities using it, even though there are also enterpressus uses. So it's extremely cheap, it's ready deployed, there's communities around it and it's accessible. So I thought that was a great starting point. It's also particularly low power to run to, isn't it? Oh yeah, that's the class of radio there and low power radius. Yeah, so you don't you don't need a significant source of energy in order to, you know, even even do this kind of work, which is which is really great if you're trying to pulluy mobile devices. That's really neat. What Um, what is the protocol like? Are you brought you since it's got a radius of ten miles. I believe it's a ten miles. So what you said earlier, that's like a maximum if you imagine in like a pure line of sight environment like a desert. But it's really going to be a functioning, you know, multipath, density of buildings. How many nodes are nearbikes? That are so let's just save a bunch of nodes nearby. Is that? Is that using? You using that to create kind of a local consensus on where? That is a triangulation. How are you determining where the actual how you confirming that something is actually where it says it is? Yesay, Goo ahead, Christopher. Yeah. Well, so, as Ryan kind of alluded to before, like what would we really the novel addition to compared to GPS is that it's a two way system, right, so we're using the principle that the same way that you can, when you have line of sight of multiple GPS satellites which you buy, design have at any given moment on earth, you can try laterate your position relative to their position, which is known in advance, the reverse also holds. So if you could imagine that in principle, if you were able to send out a signal that would be reached by all of the GPS satellites. Because they know that they are synchronized with respect to each other, they could trilaterate your position relative to theirs. Now, that's not how GPS works for multi for many reasons, it was never designed to do something like that. But in principle, if you had the power and if the GPS satellites would be able to decode your message, they would be able to find your position. What the radio network that we are deploying allows us to do is this, but without any of the hurdles that GPS would put in place. So when the radio beacons are synchronized, any participant can send out a message that they can then decode and calculate the relative offsets in time of arrival and therefore a test to your location...

...relative to them. And because you've signed the message that you have sent out with your signature, you can effectively unlock this location claim, or presence claim as we call it, at a later stage. So when these beacons receive your message, they calculate the relative time offsets and they vouch, so to speak, for that on the blockchain, and that's what you use later on to unlock your presence plane. So this is very dependent upon they're being multiple notes receiving your message, which means that it is depended upon the years density of your network in various areas. And so you're not this is this is not something can be useful, at least initially, in load population tens areas well. That's where sort of yeah, so even theoretically you would not be able to do this without the three notes. And so what happens in practice is that when you have more than three notes, you kind of sort of find an average between the potential locations. You could have been too with any three respective subsets right and in principle, the more you have, the better accuracy you get. It's a little bit more involved in that, but there are algorithms that lets you find sort of the best average. When you visualize these networks or it's easy to think that they're pretty sparse, but when you actually look at, for example, in the case of Laura, that you have a ten mile radius, the overlapping zones of you know, let's say three or four beacons within a couple of miles radius is much bigger than those two miles that they are the relative distances are because the overlap goes outside sort of the region which they are all within. So it's a little bit unintuitive, but even in relatively sparse regions you have a large enough you have a large coverage, assuming that you have more than four nodes within a region, you're approximating and not also add that. That's really where the cryptoeconomics come in. So you know, time synchronization and alternative to GPS are possible today and, as I mentioned, in many vertical like supply chain or mobility or Pokmon, there are is a latent demand for new kinds of location verification, but the cost of launching a whole new network is too high for any one actor and that instead they just take extra steps for from prevention and scooping prevention. But we're really then focused on bringing crypt economics into the fold, where you know this technology is cheap and accessible, but there's no real reason for you to running in it scale, and that's why we have a mining reward as a way to kind of build out the supply side of the infrastructure and really subsidize the cost of running them. Before they're using this robust ECOT system of location. Customers on smart contracts. I'm assuming that's where you're token comes in, is it's the incentive layer for getting people to actually participate in the network to then provide better and better quality services to those using the network. Is that the gist of it? Yeah, so we don't have a mining reward to incentivisee. More nodes, but it's also spatially waited and there's a component of the protopil called signaling. So you can actually stake tokens on the map to signify that you actually want coverage to happen there, and the block reward will be like weighted higher in those areas. So that's another way we're using these crypt economic designs to try to incentivize coverage groups and the Stilifi. Oh so if I would maybe give example of that, say I'm I built an application and as are curtain area that's relatively sparse in terms of people contributing, I can then wait my node so that people who contribute to add to the density around me can then get a higher reward because of the money that I've...

...staked into the network. Yeah, exactly. You actually still own your stake of the signal, but the mining contract will be reading all these signals, and so the tokens will be mind disproportionately geographically based on where there the demand or where people are saying they wanted to occur. That's interesting that it also increases Parsi. That's OK. I'm just thinking about the terms of crypt economics and how that works out for someone who's actually using the network. They're not giving, they're not basically staking in then contributing to the network in terms of their tokens. They're just saying there's a lot of demand here. The more people who have come in this air that signaling component, but otherwise the token is like a work token, so you need it to stake to run these then zone anchors, we call them these radio devices, and that's really like a service global agreement that you're saying you're going to be running the protocol correctly and you have the safety deposits to prove it. Can we can? We can you very clear up the term mine in the context ofter network as it is it a standard like proof of work mining consensus algorithm like bitcoin would have, or is it specifically tailored towards what you're doing? And so you're saying is the minting of the token is kind of how new tokens join the networker, like, how does that well work out? Yeah, so the proof of location actually utilizes three kinds of consent. Byzantine fall collar consensus, and so it synchronous, partially synchronous and Asynchrona. So first we have the synchronous time synchronization protocol running over radio and each zone is running it. It's a Byzantine Fall colorant protocol and they can determine their locations based on the time of arrival relative to each other. But then each zone needs to kind of share a state machine and I keep a log of all that time data. And for that we're using tenderment and, which is a partially synchronous the FT Consensus Algorithm. And so the actual software side of the time sync protocol is written as an ABCI application for tenderman and. But ultimately then the we use the root chain to like state and have access to be running any of those zones on a child chain, and that speaking would occur on something like etherium. See, then you're relying on this asynchronous consensus and that's where the final proofs or the presence claims will be posted. As well as the verifier saying if the zone is running correctly or incorrectly, and from their new tokens, film tokens would be minted and distributed based on them running that time protocol. So you have to contribute work and be checked that you're doing it correctly and then new tokens would be meant to them distributed to you. That is that's quite interesting. I like the kind of the the the approach of I want call block chains and block chains, but using the various systems and networks that we have together to provide a novel on novel service. This test really needed and kind of staking it into where the main value is, at least in its current form. You have plans to continue all on that road map, or is it? Is it like are you, are you guess, partial to the specific back end implementations that you have now, or are you hoping to then move into something that can scale better than what currently works? Where we have a somewhat pragmatic approach to this, knowing that there's like assuming, like under the assumption that blockchains will sort of blossom in the coming years. Like solute scaling solutions will have to be you know, taken on, so to speaker, like there has to be skin e solutions, and so instead of trying to like guess exactly what's the right the right technology to approach for like the ultimate location layer that you know, you can envision drones and all these autonomous agents utilizing at you know, I don't know how many track ourseactions per seconds. We are very pragmatic in that we just want to show that this...

...works, even if it maybe initially is a little bit cumbersome to use, a little bit slow, even prohibitively expensive for certain types of applications, because we believe that there's like, you know, one of the things that you have to do with blockshing technology is to sort of sell it as you go along, like demand isn't always there, like there's a vision out there, and you have to actually convince both users and suppliers that this is going to be a useful technology. So, with that in mind, where we realize that we can build this now with existing technology, and in fact it's not even that of a crazy proposal in our from our perspective, we can do this with tender man and we can do it with pretty much after sale radio technology. Will it be the penultimate realization of the phone protocol? No, but will tackle that, you know, once that problem rites. A little bit like the general approach of the theory and community itself. Right. That's very much that's very much about, like you said, a pragmatic approach what's going on and I think the the right projects in the space or the ones that are thinking further off from the in the future, building something that works now with the current technology and then scaling as the technology skills with it, and then, like you said, in the process of doing that, you kind of have to then convince people that what you're doing is going to be worth it, even if the current economics of how it works right now or or enabling to the types of things you say you're going to be using them for that makes any sense. I kind of want to want to want to shift gears into the technical stack in which you mentioned in the first part and, like you said, you're very heavy functional programming enthusiasts and you've built a stack that kind of enables that for the space. Can you explain some of that force, Christopher? Yeah, sure, so. My background the May for a into etherium and blockchains in general was, like I was working very early at consensus, where I was part of a sort of the the ascol nerds or the functional programming people, which we know we were counting on one and at that time, and I immediately started working for a company called Block APPs that basically from scratch, built a Haschal if you're im client, and so that was a really interesting endeavor, something that I later moved away from, but a lot of my approach to software development has been colored from that experience. Like I'm a firm believer in that you want to develop tools rather than product. In some sense, the products should basically just become naturally fallout from utilizing your tools once they're sufficient or done well enough. And in my opinion there's really no other like if you're interested in developing tools for software development. There's no other place as vibrant and as interesting right now as the functional programming community. I really see it as a sort of slow renaissance that's happening. We all know that in the in the Front End Development react and you know the functional reactive patterns that have emerged on the front end. They all came from the functional programming community. They've sort of been there's a kind of shallow version of that that got adopted. But functional programming and the formal methods and the mathematical ways of reasoning that underlies functional programming sort of continues, continues...

...to create new ideas that tend to be really long lived in software development in general. So I can't help but to just spend all of my waking time reading about new programming languages, new, you know, theore improvers, or new ways that you can let the compiler do most of the work for you as a programmer instead of doing it yourself. So it was really that kind of interest that prompted us then, to when we were faced with building a large scale, sophisticated the theorem application, to choose to actually build those building blocks, and we ended up doing it mostly from scratch instead of kind of trying to use the tools that were available to us. So to that end we've developed. Well, we took on the Haske Web Free Library that was initially developed by the era or IRA lab Russian team of developers for IOT devices. We sort of quickly became one of the I think now we're probably the major contributors to that pository. We also early on made the decision to write our whole front and in a programming language called pure script, which is, if you never heard about it before, it's sort of a hashkell without all the baggage of having been developed for thirty years and which compiles the javascript for for peer script, there was no web three or Etherian libraries at all, so we kind of hold sale wrote the peer script but three library. That's being very similar to the has school with Free Library from scratch. Yeah, I find that I love this, the kind of the tooling ruling across different languages for this ecosystem, because I've often, I've said this a lot on art, at least in this podcast and the other podcast that I work in, is that the intuition of the programmer in the language that they use Max a difference. So like when you're using Javascript, a javascript like language, to write smart contracts, you tend to think like a javascript programmer, which may not give you the right type of intuition for writing secure smart contracts. and I feel like functional programming languages at least put you in the right mindset on how you build smart or how you build things that you're you're writing in the right framework so that you can then your practices or how you build something and ten to lead towards more secure things that smart contracts should be, as opposed to maybe a front end web at where failing is okay and absolutely things like that and added. I was sure if you ever thought about something like that, but it's it's something I'm personally quite passionate about and I feel like it should be expressed more and more and more, and functional programming languages almost do that exactly. Yeah, and you know what's also interesting is that it works both ways in that you know every other functional professional, functional programmer developer that I meet at you know either the school lead ups or you know some of the conferences around the world, that a lot of them works work at block chain startups now, because it turns out that the domain of block chains and secure smart contract is it's not that it's been solved by functional programmers. It provides the pretty rich domain for coming up with solutions within the functional programming domain. It wasn't solved before. It might be one of the best sort...

...of tool kids to address it, but it's really been a rich sort of back and forth between these two communities and it kind of turned out that, like what you know, ten years ago, if you worked in, you know, type theory and maybe formularification, you would be a pretty far out on the niche of any programming community. And now all of a sudden you're in the center of it and all of the tools that were developed for many years in particularly in type theory, which, if you're not aware of it, has the sort of a very natural connection to functional programming, all of a sudden all of those tools become very useful. We've yet to really see the fruits of that, particularly in etherium. I kind of see, if they're Um as, as sort of an architecture that was, for better or worse, that didn't really take many of these lessons into account. But you can certainly see it in other blockchain platforms such as Cardowno and Cadena and possibly, you know, future if thereum smart contract languages, and we've interviewed both of those guys and they're very passionate about the same thing. You said you've built this stack to help you build out foam. Have you like how much of this stuff is easy for someone to get their hands on and start using to then build things for themselves outside of foam or these general purpose frameworks that allow you to then build a different applications somewhere else or they specific to foam. Yeah, I mean so that's something we've thought about. We've basically gone to lengths to make this as accessible as possible. I mean everything we do is open source. We have certain parts which, you know, are not open source yet because they haven't really been able to get down to a library that he's let easily digestible for the outside like. But that's it's mostly my belief in that. Like it doesn't really make sense to open source something just for the purpose of open sourcing it, unless it's a well designed library. No one's going to really use it anyway. But every time we've seen an opportunity to resactor or codebase and release a library, we've done so. So we have these main libraries that I mentioned. We also have some more specific libraries that sort of around interacting with solidity contracts, around connecting your blockchain applications to a legacy or actually, or maybe not a legacy, but a standard sort of sequel database. We've gone to lengths to make those as accessible as possible. My general feeling is that if you're not comfortable, if you haven't already started programming in either has school or pure script. I mean I would actually recommend starting it pure script before has school at this point because it's such a one nderful language. But if you had done neither of those, it can still be intimidating to approach your writing, your blockchain applications using these tools. So that's kind of like the what do you say? It's the chicken and egg problem a little bit, and in fact it's also been a sort of an explicit policy of our stat whenever we see someone using our tools, we usually try to approach them pretty quickly and ask them if they are looking for work. So I can give a little bit of context to send to your questioner. A little bit differently, we have like a functional a theorium stack, be developed that includes this Pierce Group of Free Library but also a functional alternative to truffle called Chantrell and a tool called Click Bait which allows you...

...to deploy test block change really quickly as a doctor image with preallocated ether and preloaded library. So that itself is this general purpose etherium stack that, when the parts that are complete, currently open source as libraries and could be used for any purpose. But the way that we had foamed then utilize that stack is in the spatial index visualizer, which is a full stack web AP actually ultimately is a react web and we have our custom way of building the spatial index. So we also have a developed reportal there and access to the API for the front end and the film specific tools, because I want to empower an ecosystem of home powered applications. But for all the previous kind of context of Christopher's prescription of the library, those are completely foam agnuflic awesome. So I could go out there play with this right now assuming so that's fantastic. But I think the thing that's kind of like immediately kind of like POPs into my head. I'm sorry I dipped out there for a second. I was actually listening, but I was also reading the White Paper in kind of skimming it and really kind of understanding a little more about the technology wall on the call, and that's very but the thing that caught my eye is the concept of the fraud proof for detecting whether or not somebody is an honest actor behaving on the system. Obviously, the more dense the node network, you know, the easiest is to kind of spot things that are just inconsistent, but I'm kind of curious what is the actual proof look like when somebody is verifying that they're you know, information is correct, nobody's lying about where they are. How do you how do you actually do that? Right now? Do I need an actual piece of hardware to report to the phone network and like, how do I interact with this on a user level? I mean that's like several questions. I'm sorry, yeah, I can approach an answer. So ultimately, the if you have a hardware, there's ultimately, you know, spacetime region that you would have to be in in order to be able to participate in the challenge between the hardware beacons and the you know, the message that gets produced by the identity of the claimer of location. Right, HMM. That's kind of provides an upper bound. So, for in order to verify a claim like that, you would have to be have hardware access. Okay, so let's say I'm trying to mess with the hardware. I don't know why I would do that, but let's just say. I notice you've got through great lengths to basically prove that that fraud happens. What is the what is the math behind that. What is that actual aside from just like time and space, like, Hey, I was here at this particular time in this spaceless just say I'm trying to create a whole block of networks or even interfew with their traffic in some way. You know? So, I mean. So there's there's two layers here, right, like one is you as a, you know, I like a user within the zone. Right. So the zone itself attests to your location and because they depend on the you know, the speed of light and so on, they can effectively create at the least a bounded region from which you have to be within in order to be able to respond. Now, so there's then comes questions such as like well, what if some of the report at times, times that have been calculated within the zone are faulty? Right. So the way that's resolved is that the zone itself, each beacon, or we call them zone anchors, has staked to the to effectively staking to participating with the service level...

...agreement, to participate in the time siguization protocol. So that means that not only does do this, zone anchors try to verify you as a user, wants to clone new uccations. They're constantly vigilant towards the other zone. Soone anchors within the zone. So any given presence claim is only valid up to sort of the they're only valid with respect to the validity of the zone. So let's say, let's say I'm in a zone and this is this is really like like small radius, you know, validation. So it's all local, localized sort of consensus, meaning they have to be within a certain region of each other in order to form this sort of validation network. Correct. Okay, so let's say I'm I'm I'm in this validation network. Where am I committing my proof that some any is that a good actor? I actually as soon that I wouldn't have to submit a proof they're a good actor. Where would actually smit the proof they're a bad actor? And what would that proof like look like? Is it an a testation? Like I need a certain number of people that agree in this local region that the person that in particular note is is acting, is not synchronizing their time or not not acting, that that reporting the correct their correct GPS. Like how does this work? Zone? They're just logging like the raw time data constantly and they're shared state machine and to ever get any revenue from customers or mining rewards. All that data is checked by another entity in our system called the verifier, and that's like a simple computational engine doing off chain computation, running all these algorithms like time of flight, trial iterations, etcetera. And because of those zone anchors aren't supposed to move or change. If they did, they would be an anomaly detection. So if you're suddenly violating into the laws of physics and I've been checking you over and over and over and all of a sudden you're now somewhere else are people can find you and you're no longer in the log you'll be caught in this kind of verifier stage. I see. So I had I had actually a misunderstanding there. I thought the verifiers and the anchors were one in the same. So the zone anchors are like validators in their own local tuenderment chain. So they're like nodes, they're as part of the more global system. We have these verifiers who like read or subscribe to all these zones and they're the ones checking the data. And then ultimately, right now we're exploring as a counterfactual verificator should let me post those proofs. That include that the zone has been correct. It shouldn't be flash it should be rewarded and the final mercle roots of all the customers presence data, and then those become first class objects on this block chain that can be referenced to revealed other applications. Oh Wow. So what does the frequency of reporting here? If you guys, like, how fast does is flatching grow? Because this is like it seems like the more nodes you'd put out there, the absolutely you would you would require a great deal of storage space just to just keep this blockchain going. Is that corrector I'm Miss Understanding that? Yeah, I mean I can say let's move preface this, but by I don't know, because ultimately, in the initial version of the protocol we are looking at zones that operate more or less autonomously. So we're trying to solve the problem of localization with respect to one zone. So that means that, assuming that the nodes are participating in the Times of coriganization correctly and reporting honestly and there's punishment within the zone if they fail to do so, you can create a presence claim relative to that zone. The question to which how multiple zones when they...

...overlap and to win its extent they report their relative activities to one another. Is I wouldn't call it an unsolved problem, but it's not something we're focusing on right now because if there's, there's like a natural kind of like scaling prior toardization. Yeah, this would benefit from a charting snare pretty pretty heavily though, because, like so one of the interesting things that I'm just going to go out onto my sci fi land, like I always do. This makes this fakes corey kind of roll is eyes very time ago. Here we go. But like, one of the things that interests me with regard to crypto economics on a global scale is like, if you know, obviously we don't want everybody storing all their information everywhere, meaning that there's no real advantage to you might want instant access or some reasonable time access to access the information of somebody making a transaction important Oregon while you're in New York, but frankly, if you're just trying to buy a coke at a store, you don't really need to have that kind of information. Exactly. Traveling around the world, having these anchor points all around and it knows where your device is. Let's assume we could get low raw onto a onto a cell phone, for an instance, which, by the way, creepy with your system, but still kind of cool too. You would actually have the the ability to transfer your assets to a particular location because this particular device contains your your wallet, and that Wallet is broadcasting its location to the local anchor points. So you can actually remove, move your transactional knowledge or transfer it to another location seamlessly, if enough of these anchor points are densely located around the world, which I think is absolutely fascinating. Going back to the the question of of you know, basically, how do you validate this information? It seems to me that that when somebody just appears out of nowhere, that would be kind of problematic for this system. So is there any way that somebody could kind of transfer on and off? Is there a benefit like this? Is this okay? So I'm going to a lot of different directions here. I Apologize Popping back in. It seems to me like that would be like transferring your money from one shard to another, if that makes sense. So it almost looks like you want to have geolocational sharting in your ideal system is that Christ so I mean I think we kind of in a sense, have sharting in that, like by default they're just not even connected, right, right, they're their only currently they're only connected through the the. Well, we're currently using plasma to coordinate the tenderment block chains but, like you know, the staking is effectively coordinated on the Theoriam. But, like they're the state, roots are not transferred between the different sharps. Quote Up, you can start doing that and then you have a shorting situation. But let me just preface this by what also quick interjection. You said the nightmare or the creepy situation in which phones have Laura chips. Yeah, it would actually not be creepy in the sense that, although you can always consume the radio signals from the node surrounding you, it's completely voluntary to respond to them in the two way communication. So it would enable you to sub come make a an anonymous or pseudonymous presence claim at any moment you want, but you in fact would not be forced to identify yourself at any time. Well, the reason I said that is because we, as we've known, like, we've detected it's not actually that difficult to figure out who somebody is on a blockchain. I mean it is kind of but like, if you give them one bit of information, they could kind of trace it back to you. So, like, if somebody's using this is their identifier for sending confirmation of locations, tied to their...

...wallet, their wall, it's tied to a transaction which ties it back to them, they'd know who you are and since it's localized in a specific region, somebody could pick up the signal and detect you, couldn't they? Well, I mean I would say that, like you can. You know that the analogy to wallet goes a little bit further in that like you could effectively create a unique signature for each time that you're then for yourself. Right. So I'd like to make I like the idea of wallets and like how you think about, you know, monetary transactions on blockchains, because it's sort of like the fundamental building block that we are all used to and it's worth remembering how if you're revolutionized thinking about that, in that it's it's not just money, it's programmatic money, right, and it becomes this completely open platform in which like two completely desperate pieces of data can be chosen as inputs to smart contract and a new functionality can be provided in a permissionless fashion. Right. So in some sense you can think about location or presence claims as like simple transactions between wallets. But to what extent that they form a larger macro location data? It's in some sense up to the developers of the film platform and not every location claim or presence claim is consumed by or have the same kind of constraints. Some of them might not need continuity over multiple zones because they are that's not important. For that it might be a trust identity or that might be something that just checks in and checks out. If someone wanted to, for example, create and one of the early use cases we were playing with was to have, you know, people ask like how can you prevent drones from flying here and there? Well, might be hard to prevent them from flying here and there, but you can certainly incentive euyes them to use flight paths which are authorized. So then all of a sudden you want to have drones fly across the path and in order, you know, track and create presence claim around the path, and for that use case you would have a smart contract that it uses the presence claims as the first class primitive into the smart pack and come smart contract and computes the verdict about the drone programmatically. Right. Yeah, and in some sense we kind of leaving those higher level logics up to the developers. turnels like to just add a few points. That the signals are also encrypted when you're sending out, so someone be hard for someone intercept your presence claim. And to the question of what you're describing of an attack, that's kind of like going to known attack in wireless systems called like a wormhole attack, or someone who's like appearing in different zones. It would be possible to pull that off, like in stationary devices and one off. But because then, as Christopher just described, a lot of the applications will be like client side verification and designing their own logic. So if you wanted to, say, a user to unlock this thum gaming item or be paid as a driver in a car, you actually need to produce eight presence claims from throughout your route and by extension, that means they would come from eight different zones. And there's those all to be run by different people, so they be much harder to take over all of them. And addition, so because that APP requires you to produce multiple presence claims throughout your path, it'd be very useless to just wormhul into one location and produce a presence claim there. Because maybe I was kind of thinking like hopping off a plane, I would suddenly produce a presence claim in a different area. But if you were there, then it's a valid presence claim. Yep, true, true, very true. So now I was thinking that. So I...

...was actually thinking that context, I was saying that phones themselves could never be anchors or they would have to be sort of a validator system or something like that. They would never be necessary. Or even then I don't think they need to validate technically correct. They would just need to make the claim. Yeah, so their customers, if the infrastructure is there and you know, these zone anchors are there and they sign these service level agreements to promise to be there. So one zone might be for one month, the other one signed a one year commitment. But as long as that infrastructure is there, if you have radio technology that can speak to your local zones, your then eligible to purchase a fraud proof anonymous claim about yourself right after station would then live on the blockchain and you could keep it private forever or reveal it to an APP that required it. Yeah, and that's another interesting thing. As a certain types of transactions would probably require a location proof, meaning that they would they you know, they would, you know, they would want it would add a level security that currently doesn't exist. So right now, if, like, somebody makes a ATM withdraw, you know, the bank goes through their bank wret cords and stream and then determines, hey, somebody made this banque draw in Canada and you just made a purchase in in at Chipotle in Fairfax, so we five your account for fraud. If you have proof of location of some sort, you could actually sort of, you know, no longer make those kind of those false transactions. And even if somebody wanted to steal your stuff, meaning that they wanted to make a you know, withdraw your money into different build a blockchain system, as long as its another protocol or something taken to existing protocols which actually have some sort of fraud verification, as it's on the base lay, I mean the simple multi sig wallet based on locations, as you can withdraw and lest there's three out of so three out of five in a specific location is a simple example of a very highly secuable to signature wallet. Yep, there we think that there's really like a long tail of examples. Can Be like you offense voting, like proving a trains late and being able to unlock a refund, things like that. There's a tremendous amount of application this thing. I'm kind of curious about the infrastructure involved with running these anchor notes. Is there a problem to say if, like my say, I run an anchor note of my house for some reason or another, I don't know why I would do that, but well, that's a great place to be running a I hope to actually I have servers on you know why I wouldn't run one? I can buy the software and run it. Why? What happens to by power goes out for a long time and I have a stake is that gets slashed because I had as like from no faults my own. How does that work? Yeah, I mean in theory were going to have flashing conditions for not fulfilling or service level agreement, but because this is there's so many unknown unknowns of testing this out scale. The only way to really do so would be to be a government or have some sort of global incentive system, and so that's why we're launching the static profivolocation for creating points that don't move and also signaling. So that's the incentive for people to start testing this hardware and be kind of reporting the results running test networks, and only through the community efforts would we be able to determine the final kind of flashing conditions, because we don't know what if you know what happens when an earthquake occurs and everyone goes off, do they all get slashed? Things like that are not really specified yet. We're current. Yeah, where can I go to learn more about running a node? You can check our technical white paper and you'll call and you were just probably looking at the product white paper. We have a draft on our GITHUB and you can share some links with some of our hardware partners from the seven Laura firmware about their vision of how to make more secure smart contracts using this technology as well. And we'll be releasing basically access to the repository to test the tenderman APP with the needed firmware to run on these kinds of devices. We're currently testing on like fifty based are? Do we know? Boards Nice. So I want to go down a rabbit hole. I notice for end.

But the plasma. You're the first. You're the first person we've got on the show that's actively using the plasma proposal in your in your system you just mentioned. I didn't know that until just now. So can you tell me a little more about how you're doing it? Are you doing subplasma chains? So, for instance, do you have, like you know, Brooklyn is one plasma chain and Manhattan's another plasma chain. How do you how are you doing it right now, and what do you think your plans would be for that kind of layer to scaling solution? I would say that. or Christ Rodeo on serting. Well, I want to say that I was again I would say I don't really know that yet. We're working together with tenderment so that we're basically working only on the Abaci Layer, okay, and collaborating with them. Let's just kind of like postpone that part of the investigation. So I don't have any really satisfactory answers to that. And they're heavily involved in PLASMAS. As says, tenderament were essentially take the definition of plasma as like any child chain that offers the ability to exit, even if a majority takes over and use the security of the root chain. So that's how we imagine that plasma construction. Most of the work I'm going on plasma in the community is around the MVP. Then plasma cash and there was plasma debit, and those are all really centered around the UTX, so transactions and I think we're one of the only people with this need of having not necessarily the theory and virtual machine, but state machine and that kind of logic there. And so the tenderment team had was participating in a lot of the plasma developer calls of having a plasma chain where the actual consensus of that plasma chain was tenderment. Ultimately, we are also super interested in cosmos. That offers an Interchain, IBC fluckchain layer, and so, Christopher said, we're really working just on the local kind of zone and time thinking and blockchain and how that's all connected to a root chain is going to be determined if we have multiple zones on a cosmos like system that do represent higher keyes of cities, or if just actors can start service level agreements one off as individual child chains. So this kind of interchain construction is going to be an area of ongoing research. But what we're building right now is the basically tenderment and radio logic for each individual zone, and that's part of that. That's part of that initial scaling scenario. You were trying to tax say earlier. You'd like your project scales with how the technology scales. Yeah, that makes perfect sense to me. I mean like he got to start small. You Haves are somewhere. So that's that's really awesome. So what Um, what do you think this will look like in the future? What you hope it will look like in the future, as we start seeing more these notes pop up? And can I use this? Outside of New York, can get success? Yeah, the radios operate on ISM bands like industry, science and medicine, so their permission list to deploy and don't you don't need a special license to round them. So you'll aboth to tough, both in New York as well. I mean to say it's like it requires a level of density that you need to have like three nodes within a certain radius. So New York's a really good test spot for that, because your first off base there and second off, there's a lot of enthusist there, but I'm in the DC area. How do I get involved? How do I start testing with other people? Do I build a local community around this, the kind of so yeah, I think that's so. I think what we're going to start seeing is that you'll have sort of cliques of functioning proof of location. So when you get to New York City you'll be able to prove your location relative to the notes that have that are an operation there. When you return to Washington, you might have set...

...up your own set of notes of the order to be some operating ones and you'll be able to prove that you're there. In between there might not be any way for you to prove that you're there. What we're one of the sort of more interesting theoretical research directions we have is we think we've sold pretty well a mining scheme that incentivises spread of notes around the world. So we have a sort of spatially weighted mining reward, meaning that if you're in New York City, it's more beneficial for you, assuming that there is demand for nodes or proof location claims and therefore notes in a New Jersey, to take your equipment there then to build a second node overlapping with the current one in New York City. That's initially, at least, approached by our sort of spatially weighted mining awards. One thing that I'm kind of curious personally about is to how we can extend this to not only have a spatially weighted minor award but also one that takes connectivity between zones into account because, as I mentioned before, like for for practical reasons, like currently each zone is somewhat independent and we certainly have some ideas on how to compute sort of values that measure connectivity and so that we can effectively create the mining awards that are also continuent on like how many other zones is your zone cooperating with? This is sort of like a research direction that we haven't really taken seriously yet, but one that I'm personally really excited about because is it points to some pretty interesting mathematics of how to calculate sort of sensor coverage in areas and I think taking those kinds of that kind of mathematics into minor works would be a pretty interesting game. Just to your first point, how to get involved, that we do have like a growing we have over twenty global foam communities, for example Melbourne, Australia, Lisbon, California and New York. You're welcome to start your own or when the producto actually launches. If you want testing to happen in DC, for example, you can also signal there and hopefully incentivize other protocol stakeholders to emerge. So what if just business? More question like, what if this is more of a utility and I wanted to invest in your network and you guys throw up the notes and I can actually stake in any one of your nodes at any time myself? Is that even a possibility? Is that something? Yeah, you would take in signal. So if you're a large stakeholder you believe in the protocol, you can basically put all your tokens in Brooklyn, and that basically put a massive bounty in Brooklyn for miners to emerge there, and then you can also remove your signal and put them in different places. So there's a role for kind of passive stakeholders to incentivize growth as well. See, now that's really awesome and maybe because a lot of people don't want to manage the hardware but they want to invest in the protocol anyway and they want to see the rewards that come from that. So I could see that as being a very, very interesting interesting for the casual user to kind of also still participate in the network and and still gets the insensitization out of it, but also share their incisipization with people who are kind of running notes, if that was even a possibility. I don't know how that would kind of work, because if you're running the node, there's really no point in not taking your own cointed it. So that just the thought process of kind of going out. Now this is really cool. I really like...

...what you're doing here. I think the implications for supply chain are massive. So video games are cool, mole and like Pokemon, going what geocashing and that kind of thing, but when we're talking about the transfer a goods from one place to another and a completely decentralized manner, having the ability to know where something is at any given time would allow people to do mapping and tracking a particular items to a high degree. And Right now the best way we can do that is through GPS and then trusting the central GPS system by removing that Central Trust Authority. I really feel feel like you've decoupled supply chain from even like necessarily satellites. Potentially, because we get we could actually see where are, where our goods are flowing and when they're flowing through the actual full supply chain map, which is just, I mean, tremendous, to be able to just be like ups, where is my shit but now, and it not only tells you it's in Root, it tells you where in root it is and you're not actually relying on, you know, ups GPS tracking system or anything like that. It could actually just be something that's completely decentralized and trustless and free of any one particular central authority to maintain and keep that network going. I think that's fantastic and I think it would just improve the efficiency of overall supply chain in general. So I'm really excited especially for that use case and many, many more. Oh Yeah, Oh yeah. I'd like to like to start a like kind of wrap this up. Is there anything else that we should have asked you? We didn't get reading get the chance to that you would have liked us to. I can just add a closing note that other ways to parchaicipate will be through the static purple location, which is ways to curate the points of interest, and I will be launching to mean that this summer. And we have a token sale happening at the end of this July and we're part of the token foundry standards and Brooklyn Project for launching essentially a consumer token or not trying to distribute it to speculators and have even a smart contract and forced proof of use to actually have those purchasers help build out the map before they can transfer the token. So that's really our lunch plan. That's happening now. And Yeah, really, what we discussed on this calls part of the vision for the entire sensors driven out of the world of phone outstand. So how are, just out of curiosity, how you guys funded? Is it purely through the ICO or do you have investors or how does that? How does that? How are you guys keep the lights on? We had a theed investment round last year and we're currently having a token sew this month. Awesome, very cool. All right. Well, listeners, if you enjoyed this, click the light button to subscribe button, tell your friends, tell everybody you know, put it on Reddit, put it on twitter. Whatever you got to do, do it. We appreciate you too, guys, coming on and kind of sharing what you're doing. I really like the novelty of what you're doing and especially like kind of a framework and Richard doing it. It's using all the available technology kind of cohesively to build something that's greater than the some of its parts, I think, and I look forward to seeing this utility pop up to allow me to build better things and everyone else to be able to build better things that we can do now. So absolutely this is a bold vision and I really like that you guys are just tackling it, because somebody has to it's going to happen. So I'm really glad you guys came so early, especially because this is going to require a lot of research still, but the work you're doing is fantastic. Thank you. Thanks so much for having us on the show.

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