Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 16 · 4 years ago

Hashing It Out #16: Fr8 Protocol Team

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Fr8 Protocol is a startup which is creating a standard communication layer to facilitate supply chain logistics using blockhcain as the truth mechanism. This early-stage startup has designed their protocol for improved track and trace, trustless exchange, and network resiliency and is partnering to integrate their protocol into IoT devices. We discuss with their team about the challenges in the space and what they hope their protocol will provide to the world, as well as how such a protocol can be managed trustlessly going forward.

Entering. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. All right, guys, episodes sixteen hashing it out. I'm here with Colin Cuche. Say What's up, Colin? So, Colin, I am Dr Corey Petty, and today we are interviewing freight. We have three people on the Mike Today, so five people could be interesting, could be great, could not be will see. We have Sloan, the CEO, Barry, the director of Engineering, and the lead engineer. Yes, so why don't you guys start by introducing yourselves as to how you got into the space and what freight is at a surface level? Will we plan to dive deep? It gives the audience an idea and overall idea of like what the Hell frate is doing? Yeah, I'll start it off. flum break fill here, CEO, CO founder. We over at freight network are starting first with a protocol layer for logistics. We've recognize that, with all the different applications being built on block chains specifically to help solve supply chain challenges, that for all of them to communicate together, the needs to be a fundamental base layer from which they can all benefit, and that is what the freight protocol is, providing a series of interfaces and Apis and and tools such that all these different application layers can work together in a cohesive way. I got into block chain back do thous twelve. Was Mining Bitcoins in college and discovered that atheroreum had a ton of potential with their smart contracting language. My economic studies let me to believe, naively, that it would be possible for us to have a programmatic way of doing a lot of the central bank responsibilities, and I wrote a bit of a thesis paper on what I guess you could think of as a stable token type model, whereby a McCallum rule would judge the ebbs and flows of the amount of tokens in the supplied and given point time. Got Bitten pretty heavy. Has Been Following blockchain for a long time. Worked at IBM's blotching labs for a couple years doing POC's for finance companies like HSBC, Bank of America. My Passion and Music Entertainment Industry had me doing things for a couple other weird, interesting ways of bringing blockshane into entertainment business, and then I left in October of last year to cofound freight with with John Fox, who's known this. Call Barry. Go ahead, man, yeah, Billy Glasgow. I joined Fred and January. Nut Sloan three four years ago. We work together in a large project a large bank in Chicago and we've cut in such other stunts and he talked me to join in this world. Rod. It's been quite an experience. From me for Good Be Great Ian Me Technology Bandwagon. been on several of them, but an for about thirty years and the pretty much written every way. This one was definitely the most exciting, most challenging and a lot of ways. So turns over the other hey everyone, my name is Yev. I joined freight back in January. When you're starting with a proof of concept and now...

...really building out the protocol heavy. My first for into blockchain was also back in college when I used to mind bitcoin and as I did that for a bit, forgot about it and at the end of last year. You know, I was intrigued by a theory and all of its capabilities, especially as it relates to smart contracts. So took a deep dive and, you know, try to learn and absorb as much as that I cut about it all right. Let's start off by going a bit broad here. Beary, you mentioned that you've ridden a lot, written a lot of the technology ways. I'm curioing. You also said this one is kind of one of the more interesting ones that you've experienced throughout your career, also one of one it's more challenging. Can you kind of bring that a little to go a little deeper? Rest to why it's most society one, because it has certain broad implications. It's goes trust all spectrums, such as pretty much every people in every the daily life, from open the refrigerator to find a hamburger, whatever. I mean. blockchains can change everything. The biggest challenge is the decentralization idea. To get cold out of your head after looking for thirty years and centralized systems. But every thought you you have now has to be broken a part of the the decentralized thoughts. That's probably the hardest part for me every time I look at solutions in blockchain. Is it like we trained myself from the old ways and try to make sure that I do it the right way. From the decentralized there is in the public aspects of public block chains is down in the all of the cerm in the Europe and large systems. I work in our own private database is very permission you can see what, whereas you have the blockchain where, if you put it out there, everybody who and that's one of the challenges we have. Trade also, or had, is how do we get public companies to what use or they're probably a public Bockman. Yeah, so let's let's let's let's take this a little more focused on your specific use case. I think it's important for our audience to really recognize why you're doing what you're doing in supply chain specifically mean that we've touched on in previous previous episodes of podcast. There are a lot of startups trying to accomplish similar or even tangentially similar goals that you guys are. What about supply chain benefits from a decentralized model and why do you see value in bringing some of these centralized exchange of assets to a more decentralized way of doing it. Now, that's a big, broad question and I think it would help for us to start by talking to the audience about what we believe the difference between supply chain and logistics is. Supply chain management and of itself is this practice of everything from precurement to the manufacturing of goods to the delivery of the goods and all those ancillary services. I mean you wrap in customer service there, you wrap in different payment protocols. Is is what makes up supply chain generally. Freight network is focusing primarily on logistics in and of itself, and what we've defined as logistics is the actual movement of people and things from pointing to point beat. Typically, logistics is thought of at a a larger Palette type level, whereby you know the parcels and the individual units that you think of as a consumer from retail goods is not necessarily what you're interacting with in logistics on a daily basis. You're thinking more in terms of we've got a large amount of goods that we're trying to move, we have to put them on Palettes, they're heavy, they have to go on trucks, trains, they have to go oftentimes, actually most of them, over the ocean, some...

...of them fly directly on air. Like apple, their iphones primarily move over the air. So when we look at the problem domain for the freight protocol what we're building here at freight network, we think of logistics and we think of building something that is a sort of base communication layer for all the different interfaces of logistics, whether that's your truck driver who's using a mobile APP and has to inform somebody of their arrival departure in GPS location and then given point in time, or a container moving across the ocean that's regularly sending updates about temperature or humidity levels within that container itself. All these different use cases sort of boiled down to a couple of universal goals that all of these different applications in logistics supply chain or trying to solve. One It's track and trace. So that's the biggest issue that we've seen that both cust summers demand of some of these providers and these logistic providers are struggling to provide that customer service aspect that comes with this track and trace solution is is a big deal and right now it's incredibly challenging for these application providers to have a universal solution for track and traces because they're all building in their silos. It's been going that way for a long time. But you know, if that kind of makes sense, we can dive a little bit deeper there. But let me pause and see if you have any follow ups from from sort of that discussion. I think so. Specifically, what about decentralization? Does supply chain logistics, then we want to focus on that benefit from meaning that we've talked very talk very briefly. Spoke about public aspect of this public exchange. What about what about the actual network protocol itself and how did is stored? Do you think is extremely appealing to a supply chain logistics tool that you guys are building? Hey, you have here. I think you know, one of the biggest issues in logistics, and this really comes around to compliance, is proof in evidence that data has not been tampered with, and you know, with the blockchain you get pretty much a complete history that's immutable. So you know, for us that was one of the most attractive characteristics about it. Let me add to that. So when we think about decentralization. It's you have actually made a good point about this a while back. When we're designing our protocol, of what about the solutions that we're putting in place are needed by businesses, and as we go and we design and we architect, we have to ask ourselves of what of the features that this protocol is going to have need complete decentralization in order to achieve the goals that they have in mind, and we found that during our interviews of companies that are going to be building on the protocol, they don't really care necessarily how the solution is constructed. They're looking for a specific set of features and it boils down to things like your track and trace or your payment improvements or your data being stored in a way that cannot be manipulated. And so, under these constraints and under these business needs, we've architected certain things to be fully decentralized. The identity solution, for example, that we have that manages the roles and permissions to access the data we store on the protocol has a number of decentralized components because we recognize a single entity controlling access to this data is something that is not going to be accepted by a lot of these institutions. Absolutely. One other area that I you didn't mention, that has come up for me multiple, multiple, multiple times is resiliency, meaning that you cannot bring this network down and nobody technically owns you network. It's the it, let's just say, even if it's a federated private chain, the there would have to be massive conspiracy in order...

...to bring down the network. This this, this level of resiliency, is not seen in current supply chain systems, meaning that there are a lot of single points of failure in many companies, and allowing the flow of assets through a supply chain regardless of hurricane or cyber attack or earthquake or war are is very appealing, especially with climate change on the horizon. So I think that will that that is well. Is One area that I've personally heard is very, very interesting. So you guys are developing a supply chain logistics protocol. Can you tell me about some of the other protocols you see maybe playing into this, meaning that logistics is kind of a broader organizational level, like sort of like how it's not as tactical. So how do you how do you see some of the tag tactical protocols that also must be built to support this, for instance, per item cirialization. So you talk about Palette level logistics, but there is actually a use case for per item logistics, meaning that we can have strawberries appear in shelves in the Grocery Store and they could be contaminated with, I don't know, some sort of containment contaminant story or whatever. We could actually find and isolate exactly how that, how that got to that shelf and do targeted recalls rather than grand scale recalls, allowing for the return flow. Does your protocols sort of take that into account and is it agnostic to that kind of more tactical supply chain? Necessary, necessary protocol serialization system that that will also need to be built. So in response to that, we can actually operate on multiple levels of granularity and it's, you know, a lot of this is going to be built around the use cases that users of this protocol will have. You know, it's designed using, you know, the typical inheritance and object to oriented the object oriented practices. So in regards to that, yes, it's as custom levels of granularity. Cool. So what have you guys got built already, and is this like we're looking to replace certain singing things like Edi or something like that? Would like to replace together, but in the meantime we have to live with it. Can you, can you explain what Youdi is for those that don't know, proving that in the chains around since about one thousand nine hundred and sixty, actually world war two, there's a standard format that comanies communicate on to Tran back business. If you take out all the healthcare parts, is just like what time transaction pro dis orders and invoices, statuses that flow back and forth, and the primarily MEDII is essentially enough uppp file, let's USB file by layout that people send back and forth in times like it's been holped along a lot of company to use it for purposes. The various purposis on the various may change the foremast. So it's not easily needed for companies any longer to just openly communicate whether you have to put a lot of work into a lot of set up, a lot of maintenance cost. So blockchain a Sensu smart contexts should be able to do away with media at some point in time. Match trip is going to be five hundred, fifty years. But the some points to build replaces, and the way I understand what y'all are doing is basically mean and it with any smart design of any project of scale, you start by planning and figuring out how you're going to build things, which inevite re leads to some type of standardization of like a very generally generally broad standardization of like how is does? That was what's the most general, atomistic thing...

...that we need to then build a system around and then move around an object oriented framework, which is basically what you've done so far. You created a protocol which is basically just a standard that everyone can use, in which you can then build upon. And Can we talk? Let's start by talking a little bit about what that standard is and how you built it, and then we'll talk a little bit about how you built on top of it. Sure. So the standard itself is pretty straightforward. At the very base layer we have something called the transport document core, and you can think of that as the air traffic controller of the inner of the protocol itself. Within here you're going to be storing your data within that as well. There's going to be access control mechanisms that really just highlight exactly what you're going to be able to do around that shipment directly rapping that transport document core is our security layer through the idem permissions modules that we have in place built on top of that and, of course, everything flowing through that IDM permissions layer. We have a series of specifically designed modules that can be picked up at the you can take one of them or you can take all of them. Are Design specifically so that the customer who's building applications on top of it can use only what they need. We have a document interface. This is specifically for things like the Association of a bill of Lating to a shipment. We have the basic things, like notification interfaces so that people can be aware of what's happening at the transport document core, and then data query, is that you can access information that you're allowed to hit. We have a payment interface that is used to form users and applications of the air financial responsibilities based on what's happened in the transport document core and the data that's been associated to it. And then we have the shipment specific things like your inspection interface, whereby the transition of ownership from a shipment from one party to another, like if it moves from truck to rail, the inspection data that's associated to that transition is going to be pushed through that interface. We have the transit data interface that's used for the time series information like GPS or temperature, along the the movement of those goods, and then that's pretty much the gist of it. Let me let you have speak up to it, because he did a lot of the design work for this as well. Yes, so the free protocol itself, it was designed in a really modular way because I think a critical component for our adoption is, you know, we can't be shoving a new standard down, you know, downe all these companies that that's you know, that's happened so many times and typically not well received. So what we do is we have the six standard interfaces that essentially are the, you know, that the core functionality anything you'd want to do relating to a shipment. But on top of that, we're opening it up to third party developers to create their own services. So, for example, you mentioned Edi earlier, we're going to have an Eedi service that will say on top of this protocol. So, you know, it's companies begin to adopt it, it's really going to be a you know, they can hit the ground running and they don't have to, you know, Redo all their it and all their processes. This can kind of just sit adjacent to it, you know, as they slowly ramp up to using the protocol fully. So how do you see things like Eti interfaces working? Me that as very described it as also how I understand it. For what I've seen, it's pretty much just document transfer. It's literally SEFTP. So are you going to be taking contracts and forming them in like maybe a recording contract using something like materium? Are you going to be doing something where you take the contracts that are smart contracts and turning them into something that could...

...be actually interface with Eedi, meaning in actual document right, will have a an Eedi service that sits on top and you know that can handle incoming or outgoing messages and it plugs into our interfaces and translates it. It's sort of like a translation layer between our protocol and the EEDI messages themselves. It's, for example, you know, if some document like a ball lighting or in order comes in, it would translate that through our to our document interface, but the other thing we do is what we eat. One problem with media also is a few to fear, so there's no transparancer cross transactions between parties. So what we're going to do is we're going to hook out those DA transactions into our interface and notifications and make sure that everybody that's a part of or a transaction get the translation of iddia message, not just the two people transmitting about before pressurings up another point that's very important to this particular sorry, Corey. Yeah, I think you're saying the same thing I am. Go ahead, privacy, yew, cannot disclose. You cannot disclose what you're what you're pricing. Structure is it's that is that is a difficult problem in one of the barriers. So there's a lot of barriers to a system like you're proposing. One of them is definitely privacy, and I mean I don't think this is not something that can't be overcome. I just I'm kind of curious what your solution for managing privacy will to mean. You don't have it right now, and that's something that's kind of in R D phase. I mean, am I wrong on that, or is that something you actually have ever we've got a lot of it. Yeah, our initial approach is all this sensitive business data, like you said, pricing. Anything sensitive will actually be stored off chain and a hash of it will be stored on chain to ensure the data's integrity. Reasonable solution to start with. And so you have things like your knowledge prooves, bullet proves, things like that that you right. Actually, what about that's true, an area where actively exploring and thing you know. Well. What is the best application of that within our protocol? Yeah, some home work techniques would definitely assist in that. Meaning problem being there that you have to you can't just store like homomorpha. Your cryption is great and all, but fully homeomorphic cryptions what's ideally necessary for this kind of thing. That's just way not happening right now. But you know, you do additive or multiplicative Homomorpha your rription. That's pretty light and straightforward. That would actually work. But okay, so you'd store off chain and you store a hash of the data that's off changed so they could kind of like notarize and sign the information that's being that's being flow flowed through the system. How does this assist with auditing? So let's just say you're going through a regulated you know the FDA needs to get involved in this particular supply chain, which you know your member of Beta, which means that you know these the trucking the blockchain in trucking alliance, which means that these trucks are actually going to have to adhere to certain standards for certain types of freight. The auditing aspect of all of this is kind of a necessary component. If you're storing this information off chain, how do you securely grant access to the information to, say, a an FDA automor so? This goes back to the ID and permissions layer of the freight protocol, something that's loan touched on earlier. For each document and each shipment, the permissions are stored on chain, so you know who's the owner, who has right access and who has read access, and it's identified by their public key. So any time a request, a request comes into read or write certain information, we check on the blockchain. Hey, is this message that's been signed by this public key? Is it allowed access to this data? And then the owner of it, you know, whoever deploys this shipment has the ability to, you know, add or...

...modify who who those parties are that have access to it. Very cool. So how do you aggregate this data? Do mean for reporting purposes? Absolutely, yeah, because you need to do quarter and reports and, you know, hid him miss. What did we what did we what did we meet our target goals for? What do we not meet our targeticles for? When things are sort off chain, then you have to have a way of accessing that off chain data and confirming it on chain that it's correct, that you've received the correct data. What tool suits are you providing in order to make that facilitate those kind of necessary reports to could to ensure that the supply chain industry is adhering to their own internal and extra standards? That included enough particol yeah, so we have a we have an interface just for that purpose that. We called it a data query interface, and what we're developing right now is sort of a custom query language. We're going to call it freake ql because, yeah, for that it'll it'll facilitate the access and again, everything will be going through the permissions layer to make sure that you know what out, you know whatever data is being accessed, it's authorized to do. that. One of the biggest advantages of blockchain is that you have, you know, such you's the and transparent audits. All right, I want to know. I want to so you were recently on the Bitcoin podcast on that one's announcements with D and he gave I think that that episode gave a really good job at giving a surface level idea of what you're doing and in the, I guess, market in which you're exploring. I want to know a little more details. In that interview you mentioned that your agnostic to what blockchain you build on, and that's basically because you've built a protocol. First, they kind of the overall standard of how the stuff works and then the blockchain is the implementation aspect of doing that protocol. What are you using now and and that kind of can you give us some more details on the implementation of your protocol? Yeah, so we chose a blotching GNOSTIC approach because really it's about the features and functionality that the consensus layer provides that is of benefit to us, not necessarily which one provides it. Everything that we've designed so far has been etherium based, simply because that's where a lot of our knowledge is is. We've done a lot of research on etherium based development so we're comfortable with things like solidity and building around that. However, the EVM compliant protocols out there are ones we're directly discussing, whether that's Hashgraph or go chain or Aon. All these various different public block chains that we can use our infrastructure for are certainly being entertained. The block shading GNOSTIC decision was one, I think that comes from all of us having an enterprise design and architecture in mind. We can't be tied down to one particular structure because of the risk that is entailed with that and, frankly, the the consensus layer provides a couple of different key things that we're going to be benefiting from, regardless whether that's the data storage and integrity that comes with that, peer to Peer Replication of the ledger or payment exchange that can happen directly through that as well. So we simply had a look at what the blockchain was providing to us at a protocol level and designed with sort of any blockchain in mind around that. So what made you choose a blockchain like etherium over distributed Ledger Technology Like Hyper Ledger? So, having come from IBM Ledger Fabric, was was obviously a big part of my vay. Keep very but keep it to yourself and to me. I just hadn't seen before I left enough production level applications and developer support for...

...me to feel comfortable investing a lot of time and energy into fabric, not to mention the the the the whole fabric infrastructure and design is focused around private and permissioned blotching business networks, and that's not really what we need it for. We need blockchain specifically for for data integrity and for the infrastructure necessary to achieve things like our privacy and permissions layer infrastructure. So the etherium choice was was deliberate and that we plan to have a public blockchain interface with our protocol and Hyper Ledger. Fabric just doesn't have a public blockchain set up specifically for the needs that we have. I'd imagine that a smart contracting platform above that blockchain is also necessary for the types of things you want to do like, for instance, like you couldn't build it on bitcoin right now because there's not a good enough fleshed out smart contracting platform to do things with. And so if things like a theorem work, because you can do that arbitrary logic that then gives you those guarantees that you're using the blockchain for. So you that's also, I would imagine, a thing required to then build to the implement the protocols. That that correct? Yeah, no, absolutely, you know that they're OK. So my question is, you've got this concept of multichain. Youan that you don't really support one specific blockchain at the moment. How did you implement things in such a way that say, definity takes off or Cadena goes, goes goes mainstream or the you know, the and industry picks to design their own blockchain and you want to sort of still be able to interface that is, there are a a mechanism we could flow assets between chains and be how do you abstract your smart contracts away from specifically one EVM, for instance, for multi chain? You know the protocol. I essentially see it as you know a lot of the plumbing and wires and you know that could be plugged into anything. You know there's certain functionality that we need from blockchain. It's you know, it's certain storing certain data Hashes, and as long as you know whatever blockchain we're trying to use has that capability, it's really just plug and play functions. You know, it doesn't matter if you're writing to, you know, definity or reading from definity versus writing to a theorium or, you know, reading from etherium. You know, just need to write all this header and get her functionality. You know, there of course be some smart contract rework, but it's essentially just again, modularity is kind of at the core of this very design. So it'sas it's just a matter of swapping out the more like an etherium for a definity module. Can you give us a sense for the scale of load it would put on the blocking system you implement on? Yeah, no, that's a great question. So early evidence suggests that if we were to simply take eedi functionality and put that directly onto a blockchain, we would do destroy any sort of public instructure around that. We had we had one trucking company send us what they what they have to comply with in order to operate with Walmart, and this is tenzero messages per second per load over the course of their contract, and it's just something that public blockchains and of themselves can't handle yet. So we are designing specifically to have the blockchain infrastructure perform only those core things we described earlier. With the intent of keeping our eyes peeled for decentralized infrastructure that can handle the logistics industry, we found the the public blockchain networks like Hash graft that...

...are designed with scalability of mind are certainly of interest to us. However, the logistics industry, being as giant as it is, you know this is a thirteen trillion dollar type annual market, is going to need some pretty serious infrastructure to handle a base protocol that's that's universal. So more of a business question here. But say you create the standard. Okay, first off, if you create the standard, that's kind of problematic in that now you've added a central point of failure in yourself. Mean, whoever controls the standard sort of controls the the supply chain globally. People don't want that. What kind of thought process have you given to how you can manage the creation of a standard but also defer the the future growth of that standard and at edit to that standard, without requiring a central authority such as yourself, because I almost guarantee nobody wants one person to control the world supply chain protocol. Yeah, no, I love this question. So our version one dot zero, the protocol is certainly going to be built internally by freight network with, of course, the companies and applications that are going to be using it in mind and adding as much feedback as we possibly can get directly from them. However, I think if history has shown anything, one organization trying to define a protocol is not going to work, because there's giant egos in shipping and supply chain. I like to tell a story about how containers ation took off in the late s early s. It took around twelve years to define the standard for what a shipping container consists of. The the length debate and of itself was a three year process, and the companies who had built the first infrastructure around shipping containers were left in the dust when the the protocol of ten, twenty, thirty and forty foot containers was adopted, because they built thirty five foot containers and twenty four foot containers, the two companies that really helped drive adoption. So that's something that we're we're very much aware of and so we've established for the creation of a consortia that will govern the further iterations of a protocol beyond version one zero. That consortia is going to consist of a bunch of industry participants and be something that is governed and structured in such a way that is very democratic and not commanded control, as a lot of the protocols we've seen being built by people like Maersk typically are our thought of in the industry. Who's going to be doing the development work? That's that's something that we fund directly through the foundation that we build. The the freight foundation is going to establish for a fund directly for the continuation and development of the protocol. There's going to be working groups that send out RFP's and those are Pa's fun and to those r peas will be managed by technical leaders at the protocol consortia level. So it's a very much sort of decentralized governance structure here, whereby there's voting that takes place to define what features need to get built first, and then the foundation will then subsequently fund based on decisions around that. Are Block chains use for this governance structure? Yeah, that sounds like a Doo right here. Like I mean, this is a good application of a decentralized atronos organization. Absolutely so. We're pretty research heavy on how we can bring in a decentralized government structure to manage all this. The last thing we want...

...is a failing of the governance infrastructure that causes the protocol to cease to exist. Something that is universally recognized as beneficial sudden disappear simply because there's political issues around it, and we're very much aware of that. Cool. So what? What hardware do you see interfacing with your protocol, because this is not purely a software solution. We actually had foam on the podcast this week. Foam is doing GPS like systems for location data with a basically a blockchain based Geo spatial and time based tracking of of assets. I guess you could call them what is. What do you see actually needing to interface with your protocol? And as the number of those elements increase, how do you see your sister being able to accommodate them? I talked about the I mean we talked about the new partnership. Yeah, you can mention that. Barry Berry's been doing a lot of our research around the IOT integration, so I'm gonna let him take this one. Yeah, so we went to another coming out here in the West Coast called Rome be and they have all those systems in place. That in a business for about seven years. So they're the one of the first one we're going to bring on to integrate into the IOT space. And so, though, they actually one of those kind of companies. They give you the equipment for free and it all goes through an API and then we're going to interface the great protocol, whether Api, and what goes on the blockchain for their customers. Yeah, and to that point, we have that modular interface structure specifically designed with one interface for that transit data. So the initial hardware that we bring in are going to be communicating directly with that transport document core through that transit did interface. This is time series stuff that typically you're going to see coming from IOT devices in the future. So this is just one company was SP set up so any company like them can join the protocol user. So it sounds like a majority of what you're doing is actually just notarizing pieces of data on a blockchain, and that's that's the real blockchain asset tracking pricing structure. Cut of system you've got. What what about your your protocol is innovative and what about it? So I assume most of the innovation is actually going to be kind of off chain, because a lot of what you're saying is stuff that's done through many proof of concepts already. But this is kind of like something that you're trying to replace a bigger system. What about your protocol makes it? You? Yeah, the so the protocol itself is, as you mentioned, something that is pretty widely known and widely discussed, tested implemented to various POC's and it solves universal challenges that logistics industry has been facing for a while. And so, in that regard, the the problem set that we're looking to solve is nothing that is directly unique. But you know that's that's not a failure, bunny stretch of the imagination. I think it's an indication of guaranteed need and potential adoption in the future. So the innovative things we're doing is around the ultimate decentralization of some of these services. We recognize that this protocol layer at some point in time is going to have to end up not being a central point of failure. The freight network can't be responsible for the integrity of this done the line, and so a lot of the research that we're doing that we're finding to hit the hit the goals of this quote innovation that you're looking for is is around that. So I think early on we talked about the the privacy protocols and how we're going to do data sharing in certain contexts. And while, yes, this notary service is is an initial way to get adoption early, the ultimate...

...goal for us is to have something that can be self sustained and that is building out decentralized features a potentially we're investigating our own blockchain and consensus layer that can help facilitate some of the growth in adoption of this stuff in the in the future. So bringing together all of the all the great research being done around things like Zk, snarks, bullet proofs and those privacy modules are certainly of interest to us. We're also staying abreast of various scalability and an infrastructure plays and keeping close eyes on companies like those I mentioned in go chain and Hash Graft, even hype ledger fabric and some of the things they have there. But we're designing with the current technology in mind and recognizing limitations that are in place with the existing things that are built, while at the same time staying abreast of all the the cool new innovations that are helping solve some of those business challenges that we see today. So how far along are you? What do you have right now and when can we touch it? So yeah, it's pretty early and we're young company and our path led us to this protocol design after a couple of different iterations at almost like the application level, and so when we look at what we have today, it's basically just this architecture design and the first couple of customers that were building out the initial features and interfaces for we have an ongoing relationship with a blotching company called open port. They are building a couple of software modules specifically to provide electronic proof of delivery, and the benefits that they've seen from that are pretty outstanding. For those of you who aren't from earlier, the trucking industry suffers from extremely high turnover. They're in very high demand, these truck drivers, and so they typically leave companies after maybe a year. They get bonuses and there's there's a lot of challenges finding new drivers and so driver retention is a big issue. Open port has solved for this by providing for a like a rewards program whereby they incentivized drivers to stay and keep coming back through two things. One, they allow them to bring their own device or provide them with the device so that data around that shipment can be associated directly to that shipment. This is date, this is data like your your GPS location, this is data like your rival and departure times, all being provided through the cell phone that the drivers interacting with. On the flip side of that, because they're associating all this data, open port can then offer them really good terms on the invoicing finance, the invoice financing of the deliveries that they provide. So what do you have? The interfaces with them, and why is that like? What is what do you actually have at the moment? And what again, when can we see it? When can we touch it? Yep, so what we've built initially is the mobile APP interface. APIS are already established so that these mobile apps that are being built can speak and communicate directly to our protocol, and that's actly running right now. We actually gave a demo of this a couple months ago at BIDDA's transparency eighteen conference. It was pretty well received. Interfacing directly with the ethery and blockchain. We had built a a driver APP that allows you to store that pertinent data of arrival, departure and GPS coordinates along the delivery. That also established for immediate payment at the end to that funneled freight tokens directly to the driver after they delivered the goods. As I as I listened to a lot of what you're what you've done and what you plan to do and I try and visualize how it's all put together. I don't necessarily see it as a single block chain platform, but almost a hierarchy of blockchains than almost oracle into a base layer. Are you designing things...

...that way? Are you planning to try and put everything into a single blockchain architecture like have you looked into plasma or general state channels? We're looking at everything and that's why we're keeping ourselves spots of what we can going away we want. Yeah, we've started to do a fair amount of research on plasma. We have a sister company that we like to wax poetic with about all these new technical advances called the mad network. There they're building an ad tech privacy solution and already have partnerships with the biggest advertising platforms out there. So certainly staying in breast there architecture early you can. I'm not sure it's not necessarily a series of layers of block chains, but more a series of functionality and how we interfaces block chains layer by layer. is is still being structured. I'm not sure if that's there's there's no good way to do this right. There's like it's you have no example on how to do this because you kind of have to figure it out by your self because no one's done it yet. I'm just kind of curious as so, how are your viewing things? Yeah, like, Barry, what do you what do you what are you working on? Like, as far as that goes, like, what are you researching? You you say we're open to everything and everything. What has you excited? What kind of experiments you guys are writing internally and what are your results from them? Well, an experiment I'm on right now is BOT solution that we're doing, done in about a month and a half with thee, our new partners, and it's essentially, you know, running all this immutable iotwo data and put the blockchaining. What he aspects are going to go on the blockchain that are interest up screen and then it's probably the demo to get some get some visibility out there. We're going to partner with sales force and they're new IOT state machine, so we're going to have live shipments going through our blockchain that come the immutable. Those key data points will go cunel up through a pipeline to sales sources iot state machine, where then it can make business decisions based on those data points themselves. For Serum Platform, yeah, you're agnostics of that stuff too, so it wouldn't matter if it's like if it sales for us or some sap solution, you'll sleep on there. Yep, that's that's always because here's the deal. He's in. These enterprises are locked in their contracts, sometimes for over a decade, and there's solutions out there that already exist and they're not going to be get rid of them, especially not when they have big investment that they have already in the business part. Well, no bout that. That what we're looking at. Get into the large spaces. We have to build a work with the largely RPS, I'm small, and build a push our. We're looking for the blockchain solution. They're tied into the centralized, you know, paradigms, especially sales force. They're struggling. They know that they're in danger. They read it on the lollypopped. They know the blockchains and know that they're both bottom line and the next five years. They want to be on top of it. So there were open to how their systems can change in the bath from the centralized we love. And these some thoughts. What you just said gives you a gives you a nice way to add on to the the, I guess, guarantees that they give and the terms of like they're your feeding blockchain data into their systems, which gives them much, much better guarantees about the quality of that data. And if you could up the word, it is you continue that that line up. blockchain gives you that which then alleged to feed in the better resource to what already exists, which they gets your foot in the door to do better things later on down the line, after you prove yourself. Yeah, but they told them that's like, but you got that's Iot thing and you can see Iot that and I you know. I that is real. Has Been. It has to be immutable or its WORKLOS. So what if? What if it's the local areas acts like so's. Here's one of the problems Iot right now is that you can have individual devices.

You could also have groups devices where you could hack that device's entry point, meaning the actual way they're getting to the Internet. Rights similar solutions for that. We we're going into. We have local building. A localized consensus is non trivial. That is that is a fun problem. Like that is a real fun problem. So, like localizes consensus mechanisms that operate within a certain like group or even range of each other are just is just a tremendously valuable problem to solve. Just that alone. It's fun. It's really fun. So yeah, now that's that's it's good you're looking in that direction. I you know, I hope your research goes well. We need somebody to really really focus on solving that in a very generic, protocol level kind of way. Have you looked into things like the IOT alliance, or you communication with like say, we had Zachamanian on the show as one of our earlier guests. He's The's easy the director. He's pretty high up a the there's like fivezero groups of the ones too. Right now and I'm not sure interesting enough. He's also like the developer on because on Cosmos. So he started scow chain, which is a logistics blockchain, earlier, early, early on. Yep, I again Zaki Zachie Manny, and if you go through our history you'll see it number one or two. Yeah, no, I don't think I's like five or so. I will look as you continue talking, but no, it's a there's a lot of really interesting work to be done in that particular small niche area of the space. Solving that is a high value proposition. So I'm glad you're looking in that direction. Personally, the the the question I have for you is what is like? So I guess what is making you most excited about this? What made you look at this and go, okay, I've been developing for umpteen million years, but this is this is something that's just interesting to me. Like what what made you leave the centralized world, where I'm sure you are very comfortable, up into a decentralized world? What what is what is exciting to you? What's on the horizon? What projects are you most enthusiastic about? Quick Note, that's a righty end. Was Number Five, so you want to look back. That's what it was. I guess the answers. I like being uncomfortable. I was comfortable. The challenge was big and real and the keeps me of this night reading, studying, researching. It's very sun fully understand that passion. So but, uh, that's great. So have you have you when you say you're looking into things like plasma in general, state channels? What? What kind of things do you see your protocol leveraging them? How doesn't I don't know yet. I mean we're still in the early stages. A lot of those who do, because I'm just to say one way other than other, those projects are in the early stages. I think right now, if we mail down the IOT imutable aspects fairly quick water and get that done, then we can start look at those, those other groups that have matured more by them, the better look at how those areas. Yeah, it's definitely an immediate value proposition. I I think. I think there's a lot of a lot of people who need that, that sort of consensus layer on Itot I see who's need for it. I have a question that's very different than the current topic of conversation. Why? Why a token what's IT useful for? Why do you need it? I'll here bay, I'll take this one token it of itself is is how we pay for access to these interfaces. We want to design a token that was independent of the politics of all the other tokens out there, one specifically focused on logistics and freight and what we were doing at the project. So we built this such that the the flow of tokens are for writing data and for consuming resources at the protocol level. Same kind of structure as a theoreum, whereby, if you have a smart contract, paying gas fees in order to access those computation resources is where...

...you go forward. But because our infrastructure has to be significantly cheaper than etherium for it to get adopted in this flat chamber six industry, because it's so low margin, we had to design something that could be potentially offuscated from everything. At the consensus layer. We're already seeing our blotch are token being used in like that partnership with open port I mentioned before. Those, those driver rewards programs are being structured as we speak such that tokens are used as a micro incentive for them to associate data through that, through that smartphone platform and to expand on that. As I mentioned earlier, were really encouraging third party developers to create services on top of our platform, you know, whether it's like sap integration or, you know, some great data this visit again, talk data visualizer. Anythink that. And our protocol allows for the flow of Tokens to those developers, you know, so they can set up their own fee structures, whether, you know, it's per rite or a monthly subscription, and that way there's a constant and sent to incentivization for for these developers to operate, you know, to create new capabilities for this PA, for this protocol, via the services layer. I see, I see if it's set up properly, and the point of the token is purely to utilitarian, the economics of the token movement become a metric in themselves of what's valuable in your network. I always think in terms of analysis and like, where you can find like, how you can look at the numbers that are moving and find value and then push efforts in that way. If the token flow works out the way you hope it does, it then becomes a way for you to automatically figure out what you should be focusing on or where the value is inside your network based on what people are using. Yeah, no great observation, having come from most of economics background, are one of our big pushes and the data science arm and freight network is around how the token is blowing in our economic system. I think there's a lot of really, really cool research being done and insight into the economies that are being built on these block chains is something that we're going to see as probably an entire field of research moving forward. So it's going to be cool to see how the flow of Tokens being written into a blockchain can be analyzed and interpreted in real ways that add actual business value. So I don't know if you heard some of the previous podcast, but I have a tendency to at the end of the podcast go a little, go a little every time it just s space and talk about something that's a little outside of outside of the scope of your project, but kind of talks about how the future would look with your particular platform or whatever somebody's actually speaking on. And I have a really interesting thing that popped in my head during this conversation. There's not a real big differentiation between the material assets that you're talking about, meaning that's a Palette of strawberries or a pellette of drugs or a Palette of lampshades. I don't care, I love lamp I did literally look in my room and see the first thing that I said and used it anyway. So there's really no, no major difference between those material assets digital assets, meaning like digital purchase keys, documents and copyrighted material. Being that your system theoretically could apply to any data as a flow of good a transfer mechanism, a protocobol for sharing anything. Obviously, the...

...low hanging fruit in the current times is to solve the supply chain, logistics, logistics issue, but ultimately the the their urine information exchange network and that information is notarized and plugged into your network and can literally facilitate the trade of any information and it's not restricted necessarily to material goods which are tagged and put in a truck. It could actually be somebody's PhD thesis or, you know, a song on spotify. I and I think it's really interesting that as we see these initial use cases come up where we're flowing things through the network and notarizing them and saying this is what is true. As we have more ability to do that, we will see different kinds of things being put into these kinds of networks. So I think the word supply chain in the word logistics might actually expand as a result of the kind of work that you guys are doing. So very exciting stuff. Yeah, No, Colin, I think that's very well said. Let me add just real quick. I mentioned before Sister Company of ours, bad network, and the advertising technology supply chain has a lot of similarities to the digital supply chains you mentioned, in the physical supply chains that we're going to be interacting with in our initial builds of the freight protocol. But to be fair, supply chain is the general concept and as all these different industries start looking at how their supply chains of both data and goods flow, I think they're going to start realizing that, generally speaking, these blot chain solutions can apply universally. I really enjoy wrapping up long conversations with very simple sentences, and basically what you're doing is standardizing, watching shit move and then agreeing on it. Corey, are you? Are you a poet man, because you I am a doctor. Oh No, it's just the I really appreciate, like I like with this this kind of stuff and the and this safe of work, is this is a problem that everyone has. If you're going to build a business, you're going to run into this. It's some way, shape or form, and so like. As you start to build out the systems that help facilitate that, you how to help everybody do everything better, because everybody wants to watch it move an agree upon it, and you need standards on how to do that so that when you have I don't want to see adversarial parties, but people who don't automatically trust each other, they have a platform they can go to to then use it in and not rely on someone else to make sure that everything's good as there is there any questions that we should have asked you that we didn't get around to? It's something you wanted to kind of let out that we didn't get to. I think one of the biggest challenges of any of these protocol designs are getting out there is adoption, and a question that I don't think gets asked often enough is no product market fit and how you're going to drive adoption of some of these ideas and protocols and what we found is that, even even in the the last five minutes here we've been talking about supply chain generally, can apply to all these different industries. When we look at the decisions we made around starting with logistics, it was focused on that because of the direct needs of data information sharing in this industry and so as we mark it ourselves and the as a protocol layer for logistics, it's going to be important that we have a number of really strong and good ecosystem partners driving adoption at the application and service layer. So we've certainly kept that in mind and structured how we develop and how we implement features based on real world needs, and that's factored all the way down to the design of our architecture. So keep your eyes peeled for for protocols and ideas that aren't focused on adoption...

...and real world business needs and, you know, stay abreast of things that are happening here as we move forward. Cool. Thanks, guys. It's really great. Really enjoyed this. How can people reach you and how could people find you? Yeah, you can find us on our website. That's www dot fright. That's the number eight dotnetwork. We're, of course, all over telegram. Come ask US questions. We're always there to answer them. All your social channels, instagram, twitter, facebook, read it. Got Our presence there. But yeah, thanks for your time, guys. Has Been A lot of fun. Absolutely and for our audience. If you like this episode, click the like button, show your friends, share it on twitter. Contact us at Hash you get out dot stream. You can find all our sites there and where to email us. Find US on twitter. I'm at Court Petty Collins, at Colin Crouche, and thanks to coming our guys. Thank you. Pleasure was our thank you.

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