Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 18 · 3 years ago

Hashing It Out #18: Origin Protocol - Stan James

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

In this episode we talk with Stan James, Lead Engineer at Origin Protocol. They are building a mechanism for completely decentralized market listings and purchasing using Ethereum smart contracts. We go over the design, the tools, and the integration pathways for Origin, the challenges faced in designing this protocol, and the layer 2 solutions which improve the service of messaging buyers and sellers in a listing.

Now entering a kind etwork wokome to hashing it out Foaspe forretalk to the ATTECK, intovators, behnd, blocked in introstructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds toget at Wyan how peoplebuild this technology n the problems they face along the way, O'm, Listengand learn from the best in the business. You can join our ranks ar guys psovn eighteen hashing it outtoday we're here with origin. A sharing economy. Protocol h stand James is theStan. What Pociot do you hold in Worson? We're we're kind of fuzzy on titles.Like your engineer, lead block chain engineer. Basically, like engineer Ho's been around the walk afew times perfect, that's exactly the kind of person we want to be talking tofor this Um. Why don't you give us a quick introduction? First off, asalways, Callin say hello, hello and I'm corpatic OSD to Y, say: What's offCollin Changing up this time? No, don't change change, Ot, uppaletized themgoing. We got a Sisi go in Hio man y O, you gotta KINDOF! Do Itbyanywe'll? Do it next time, okay, cool Igtan, once you give us a crikintroduction as to how you got into the space in the first place and Um whatyour background is and what origin is a hat's whot Um? How I got into thespace? I guess I'm just lucky to have some people that were in it early. Itwas about about this time last year that I, which just kind of became awareof you, know that there was excitementhappening. I the CRYPTO space. Well, I guess, like everyone, like bitcoin kindof came on my radar back in what two thousand twelve thirteenish N it was.You know. First came on the scene, Um and I was actually living in Berlinwhen there was like the first store that accepted bitcoin payments and soi'me kind of kicking myself that I didn't to pick up on it then, but aboutthis time last year my friend Josh Razier who's, the copounder of originUm. I have been friends for a long time and we were just you know hanging outand he was explaining. You know basically how atherium works and how there's more to cryptocurrencies thanjust paying for things and just you know,anarchist whatever economics and at planted a bit of the seed and thenmonth or two later, when he said that he and his buddy were actually startinga company, and he sent me just Thi, know flurry of white papers to read onno like plazma and Zk snarks, and I don't know like IPFs, and I can'tremember- and I just you know, had this night of staying up really late andlike islike. This is awesome. This is the VNTURE. I gotto be a part of thisand I was practically begging to be the first employeeef. I was there on day,one as the first employed origin. That's awesome, I, what is let's talkabout orgin a little bit, wh t w what what what problem do you seek to solve?And why have you and how are you a different eor in thatprobe, spase m? Well, a problem such as it is is that,right now, if you have something, I e ALD, relatively simple thing of likeyou've, got a used bicycle that you want to sell it's like pick witch giant corporation. Doyou want to share that fact with when you as a seller? Like you, don'treally Ou k? Ow, you don't care about cratic of Craig's list, you don't careabout Ebay, you don't care about Amazon or any of the like local classified.You just want to find a good buyer and the the block change is such a perfectum solution to this problem of you just want to put a fact out intothe world and like when I explain block chain to nontecical people. I say it's,U know. It's dislike. Tu t database that just kind of lives out there thatyou can write data to and it's not owned by a particular company and sothe usecase of just a buyer trying to find a cellar Um. Iseems like matchmate in heaven for for blockhing cool, so there's a lot of components tothat Um. That h seems to span a lot of commontopics among our guests. One of them being is how do you register assets?How do you exchange assets? Let's let'slet's start on that. So Um morigin is using the ethereum protocol...

Rightyeah. So is this a seven twentyone basike NFT system or um? No, no Um! It's it's much simpler. I would say just on the ideaof we have listines and people make offers and buy the listings with some.You know a little more complications around fractional usage, fo things likeA. I want to rent my apartment for a fewweeks or I went to rent my bike for couple days, but we we don't go down the seventweenyone rout of like trying to like you know, give your used bicycle on Chaneidentity. It's just. There is a listing and here's the description in thepictures and etcetera. So it's like an open marketplace. M D:You've kind of got a bunch of primitives in smart contract form whichessentially enable you to create an auction or abidding bidding system, oris it more like a direct by a more direct by an auction thing could bebuilt on top of us in theory, but we're much more on like natively at thedirect, the direct by approach with a little bit of like you, make an offerand the th byer accepts Ooh, and so what kind of Um volume areyou looking to support right out of the box on this? Is it something that'sgoing to be requiring they post their own contracts or so that they deal withthe volume issues? Or do you have like a centralized contract that they caninteract with they'll, be a set of contracts thatthey interact with M, but at origin? We're also very um like we're trying to do s for the fullstack solution, so we're not just set of smart contracts. We are developingour smart contracts and then inparallel developing libraries for now, just for jobscripts,like Orgean JS, NPM, install origin which allow someone who doesn't knowanything about blockchain, but no jaascript like your typical webdeveloper. Our goal is that they could get up andrunning with a marketplace in just a few minutes and to that end we're also making anexample doubt that sort of shows, as o of you know, best of breed example, howto interact with our orge, an JS library got you see what people tointegrate this into their own existing systems so that you would be kind ofthe the origin, the origin, Um, ah protocol, the origin, sport contractswould be the point of entry for posting, this kind of market marketplace dataand they would be responsible of maintaining it, but it would be kind oflike the truth, keeper o the reference o single source of truth in ValueExchange Mechanism, bfor, actually paying for these services. Is thatcorrect, right, right, yea and and just like the easy onramp for regular web developers. We we often talk about that video demofrom the early days of rails, like Ruby onrails, where it was like a ten minutevideo where he created a blogging platform just like in real time andthat kind of blew everyone's minds. So I think at least my personal GoldeOriginis to make a ten minute video in a few months of someone creating amarketplace like you know, for used, bicles or something, and just likecomplete the whole thing in ten minutes and that sat's really awesome yeah eahthat goingto be using like is it? Are you only using a therium as t e paymentmechanism or you opening that up to tokens on a Theriam platform or you areyou trying to stick? Is Fiatt an availability option for this type ofthing, or is it because you're using the technology of atherium Esset levingyour scope to what's being used to pay? We will support any R C, Twenty Tokens, I'm pretty sure we' Goul Sport, thatout of the gate, um so yeah and th. The rough strategy for supporting you knowfhiat would be you know something like a maker dyeor, an this Namal coin, there's also third party intigrations,which could support the origan protocols such as Coinbaskan, decide:Hey, you guys, are doing awesome work. You know we like what you got cookinghere. We want to be able to people to directly through our USD purchasemechanism that they already have set up, covert to th immediately andtransparently and go straight into the contract so that they can use leveragethere existing payment mechanisms M, there's. Also things like shape shift,I guess which could also possibly integrate with this kind of stuff, soyou could use other currencies, get it directly to Athen directly. There's noreason why this kind of these kind of processes can't be abstracted away andmad. You know transparent through thirdparty partnerships and integrations yeah, like our our dream, would be oneto make our protocols open and well...

...documented and flexible as possiblethat you know someone who wanted to make a you know a bridge to you, knowBitcoin or whatever could sort of do thattransparently. Under the hood and our indgoals, you know for that youknow just our you know the the classic. You know our moms and siblings, that don't know anythingabout tech can use this and as far as they're concernive, they know how touse Craig's list. If they know how to use Ebay, they know how to use AirbeanB. We want them to be able to use origin powered applications Um a problem that you may have. I is aproblem of the entire community in that. If you want people like that, to beable to use the platform they're going to have to get the token and then usethe tools necessary to assign contracts t to transact those tokens, how do youovercome that type of a onramping user? onripping difficulty well you're right that, especially liketoday, it Wan be erly impossible to give that fluid of an experience Um for some of some of that's just like UXproblems of how you present things: Um Iam, not the UX Guy, but I know we alot of the the UX H, design decisions, we're thinking kindof try to use metaphors that people understand, like you, know frequentflier miles or loyalty points or something or when they have to interactwith. With a token of some sort, um or like you said, maybe it's like adirect transit transition like you have a credit card layer that directlyconverts it to dire or theor n under the hood or maybe in a few years, people will bemore comfortable. Just you know, having some etherium or other R s twenty token, it's yeah it's hard to say what thefuture will will be like, but it we know, there's a lot of people workingon making this onboarding experience easier and we're going to do our partfrom the application side. And, of course, we hope that things like you know like we're, getting better andbetter sort of wallets on the mobile space that integrate and give a gooduser experience. There coin bases doing a ll like paypale type experience forcheck out. I think I'm pretty confident that in ayear say two years we will be able to achieve a pretty ceamless level of usefor the average user and that's going to be a sental for anysort of adoption D. I think that's one of the big barriers that a lot of thesecrypt currencies have is not just current currency, but anything in thisdesentralized land is very relegated to deto people who have sort of thistechnical knowledge being able to make it virtually transparent and yet stillprovide a in sensivization or even benefit model over Um. What iscurrently offered by socialized system is really the challenge. I think a lotof people are facing Um welanother. You asked earlier about Kindo like what Um what makes us different, or why, like?Why? Origin an? I think that origin- or at least thisapproach, has some advantage in that the market that we're targeting SolikanArbean bee host or someone who sells a lot of stuff on Ebay. They are highly sensitive to the cutthat the sensralized services take. You know, as as Arabn B takes a book or cutEbay takes a cut M. if, if we get the user experience goodenough that they can start to use it and realize hey, we can save or we can.I can make fifteen twenty percent more money on my bookings by going withorigin. That will be a good motivator to getover that hunk or for them to even encourage their buyers to Gor that hunt.So I think if we can get it to a certain point, this pure monetaryinsentovation, we'll maybe get them over that last ten. Twenty percent offriction yeah because basically you're cutting out the middleman. All theseexactly you just don't need them anymore, which lowers prices overall,which makes it competitive Um. That's hat's, a really really good,interesting. In fact, you know. I don't hear that quite often enough. I thinkin these conversations you know I think, Origi like two years ago. I heard itall the time that Oh, the competitive model will be we're cutting out themiddlemen, so we can be more competitive, but it kindof like thatlanguage kind of disappeared over the past. Well, since the Tokens Kindoftook off, I haven't heard it quite as much so I'm glad to hear that is. Thatis what you're seaeing is the value out there um a direct value ad Um. So there's a couple of things I want totalk about. Let's just start with this one Um, I remember a while ago, youguys had a identity kind of playground that I saw Um using H, savion Vogal, stellers, Um, Sev yer s live yeah, your ses, seven,twenty five influentation. What are...

...your experiences with that so far, andare you integrating this with a phrotocol or what we? What was? Whatcame of that Um? We're still really happy with it, we're still using it inour our demo application on the test nets now Um, it's proven to be really flexible. Ithasn't. You know boxed us in in any way Um we're adding more and more Umvarifications, so that, like right now you can you can. You know, prove that yourprofile, that you a facebook account or your titter account- or I think evennow- might be pushed out live, maybe not quite yet, like your Arbn bidentityet Cetera, you can make those attestations to your ears e, seven,twenty five identity and we as anyone you know in the Sharaneconomy or market place base knows like reputation. Is Everything and soidentity is going to be kind of a key piece of making this all work andyou'll feel better about buying something from someone. If you can seelike oh they're, super trusted, airban be person, and maybe you know, coinbase, attested th t theyr a a credited bester and their banks, the Testet,their credit scores whatever Um. That's that's the future that we want to getto yeah. So let's talk a little bit more about the implementation detailsof that. If you don't mind Um, you can speak to it. I don't know whospecifically works on that in your team. You know you've got quite a team Um,the Um, the Um, the thing that I've I've noticedabout the seven twenty five. Well, how about this? When do we start backing itup a little bit and maybe for our viewers, explain a little more abouthow it works and what the actual smart contract does and how you see thatfitting, indirectly, with your current mark, you know e Orcir, Protogol, Um,so right so I'll confess, I'm not the Goy that did the implementation ofseven twenty five. That was a nick. He was awesome, but essentially with your es, seven,twenty five, your identity on the block chain so to speak, is a smart contractthat that you control and other other smart contracts or other peoplein a blacchain and make claims about your identity, o such asthat this person is so and so on facebook or thisperson's phone number, is this et Cetera, and then you can accept thoseatte stations of like Yep. That's me, that's true, and then anyone else who wants to sort of knowabout you can quiry your smart contract and see like. Oh it's. You know so andso says that your phone number is this, and if you trust that so- and so you know might be twilio might be someservice, then you can feel good about it m right now, of course, mostsensualized services don't have ERC seven twenty five attestation services,so you KINDOF have a bit of a proxy where, like right now, origin runs whatwe call a bridge server out of this bridge, where you log into face bookusing our bridge server and we can va, we can get the token back from afacebook that proves yeah. This person did log into facebook and they are thisuser, and then we will sign the attestation back saying the origin. I Dserver certifies. This person is bacebook sore. You trusting that. Thatis that a trustless mechanism. Are you integrating that with the block chainat all in such a way that we can actually crustlessly verify that originis operating n in good faith or is their trusted mechanism? There thereis?Well, it's not ideals. So the the code is open source, so anyone is free torun their own groop server and, of course, you inspect the code of whatwe're doing we imagine in the future. Other peoplecould run their own and if, for some reason you don't trust origin or insome situation where that doesn't work, anyone could do that and of course,hopefully in the future, you'll get um. You know you know companies that mightthe ideal would be like Ne. U S, government a test, this person is thisperson or your bank would actually sign directly to attest your credit score orsomething the way W Y, I picture what you're doing here and I think it's howyou did. It is um you basically like when you you createsome it, the Webot yo they have. They have hooks in which you could use thesethird party services like get O basebook, Google, so and so forth. ThenLo, an as a user without having to implement Um that and your own webapand what happens is usually it sends you to a portal to their site and wishyou bog in with your own credentials of their site and it sins back some type,Ofjacion, webtoken and success, and what you're doing is intercepting thatand saying. Yes, this person is the...

...person they logged in as and then youcan C craft the transaction with those things that that is the attes station,that someone would normally do for seven, twenty five Secrad e, exactlyexactly so we're we're kind of playing. The part of you know imagine that thisis like a a regular website. The, U Pace, wotlogin except our application,is really really simple and dumb and all it does is once you log in werelike Yep, you are, who you say you are and be right to the block chain assaying that we have. We have seen the token from facebook and be certifiedthat you are who you say. You are at's school 'cause that was kind of he oneof.The questions I had about M for any two sited marketplace. Reputation is a bigdeal, especially in digit in the digital world. I mean there's a reasonwhy Amazon pomp so much a time and development into the user rateor the the item rading system right. Getting reviews yeah, like reviews,have become almost the way people shop nowadays, which is artificiallyinflated through paid for Erviews and so on and so forth. But like it's likeit's it's clear, that's how people shop and so and when it's when it's online-and you want to know who you're dealing with because n, like you know thecreepy Craig's list worlds in some cases Abe dealing with some somebody.That's you know just going to steal your money or they're, trying to pullscams and so on and so forth and een to know that, like there's some type of trustworthiness or reputation aroundsomebody in the digital world that you're going to buy from so that you're,not rinting, some beautiful condo somewhere in a vacation place e'regoing and it its up. And it's like doesn't exist, yeah, it's kind of areal shame that Craig's list has come to dominate. You know it's great, thatit's free but because they are centralized and just are the de fact or monopoly andthey've resisted all attempts at any kind of reputation system to getintegrated or people tried to do. You know build on top of it. So yeah, that's like a a side goal ofmind is to be able to get some reputation brought to this simple. Youknow Craig'slise style transactions that we all do no Um, there's there'scompetitors. I think, in this space, even within the blocchained world inthe I think, swarm city was it used to be arcade city then moved to SOM cityand they they wanted to kind of generalize. This two two settedmarketplace: Do you? Are you differentating yourself from them? Areyou working with them? Are you aware of them or other people doing the samething aware of them m? I'm probably not thebest. I briefly have looked at their code. In the past, it seemed likedevelopment had slowed down a bit Um and, as I recall, they were notespecially doing the factional usageside mbeing that general. It wasmuch more of the you know, O K, xes for sale. Someonebuys X, not the you know, por tie lower timehow. Do We? Can you explain that alittle more n, the time sharing aspect of how origin works? Myeah, it's just um sort of basicallyadding some richness to the protocol where M, when you in act, wer working on th right now, especially on the Ui side O, you knowwhen you crate a listing Um depending on the type of fraction, alsolike for a o home sharing, it's typically by thenight. You can just scacify when it's available, Um Tha, that calendaringinformation is stored in IPFs Elong, with all the others sort of medadataabout it, and so, when the buyer comes along, they can see. You know when the house is available etCetera and the celler can then approve or deny. I request a book and Yeah.That's! Basically, it Um can go other. Are there any other competitorsout there that you you've heard of or thought of, like? I think slucket isdoing something similar with their locks, a and microwaves and things likethat. But it's is, I woendn't call it a competitor but like along the samelines of buying something someone else. Has S the service yeah, they seem again,I'm not an expert. They seem a bit more focussed on the the IOT angle, Om. You know, using theblock chain to unlock the door et CETERA. That's been my rough impression andthey seem again from my memory a bit more focusedonly on that side so than they don't cover the case of the Craig's list,selling a used bike. I think we're trying to make a very general protocolthat handles all of these type of sharing economy, marketplaces.Everything from you know the Craig's list. I want to sell my ush whatever toArban B when I'v Rent my house and then eventually all the way to Oober liftstyle. I want to get to ride in the next. You know five minutes or evenjust like Wifi sharing like o know,...

...someone has Wifi yourinthe network, youcan maybe buy a you know some time or dateout from their network by automatedgoarmiting e contrasaction. Exactly I mean I really hope that we will know.Whar we've succeeded if people are coming up with all kinds of things thatcould be rented and sold that we have even thought of that, because the friction was too highbefore o. You know something like eat like wyfi sharing, um or just I don'tknow, access to to to hikes or you're a goodR atoor guide, or I don't know, like those sgys the limit really on the other side of that note, then,because Thi Sguys Linit, like what type of Um problems have you run into andtrying to do this, like wh WWhat, Ki, O catch alls. You have when trying toscale us out O H. do you see anything in a future? That's going to be amassive roadblock for you. As you build out more and more Um. On the tenicale side, you mean likeLi e, on the repentations technically yeah tecnically, I mean the bigroadlocks th, the ones that are common to everyone in Thi Space. Of course,you know, scaling the confirmation times, Etcetera andthe onramp Um more specific to us. There's at least achallenge around the Schema. Gaine representations right. We don't boxourselves into a corner in the way that we represent things in were using JasonSchemo to sort of t specify. You know this is my apartment for rent as thismany apartment, his as many rooms et Cetera um. We don't want to unintentionally boxourselves in too much Um, so um yeah, that's probably the biggestpentical challenges, oh part from Obviousl Jus, the ones that like bedeploy, m contract and Nwe. Somehow don't have a weight,upgraded or fix it. It's probably the biggest risk, that's a big risk foreverybody! C! Oe! U DISPUTES! Oh Yeah! That's that's! Also key in this spaceyeah. I was just reading through your smort contract and I see you have adispute mechanism Um in there and I o hoping. Maybe youcould go over some of the process and problems surrounding that, because,obviously that's when you have a nutability disputes become kind of aproblematic issue. So if maybe you could talk to me, F ahouse how that's manager, how you envision that will be managed goingforward. Yeah um well weare still investigating a lot ofoptions in this space. Right now it looks pretty good for using Um e E. I pseven. Nine two, I believe it is, is the Claros proposal for arbitration, and that is that's for handling. He kind of theworst case scenario where a third party arbitrator has to getinvolved when there is a dispute, much like withsentralized systems, we're going to push people to as much as possibleresolve it amongst themselves. You know like Hey, I go. I checked into thisapartment ad filthy there. As some pictures. I don't thinkit's right that I pay the cleaning fee or whatever whatever. Hopefully, peoplecan settle that amongst themselves and we're making sure that we have thosemethods available on the smart contracts so that you can kind ofchange things even after the bookings mid and then, when it does kind of come to.Like neither side is happy and it's just like we got to bring in somethingelse. That's where we're probably going to use that seven. Nine two protocol,which is kind of a nice just an interface basically for arbitration,where you can plug and play different arbiters into it. Um. Initially we're probably going tolaunch with a very kind of standard, centralized arbitration system whichyou know might just be customer service agents employed by Oracle or bi originHo Otorgal, who are who are handling it. And then, then, we can decide either oncradiantruly, centralized Um obotration system, which is what Claros is tryingto build, and there are a few others in that space M and we can kind of basically kind o watch the developmentsand not have our selvs box into a corner, and you know basically pick thebest of breed to to be that arcration system or in what might actually be.The ideal is if we keep it Pugin playable the the people creating the marketplace.Applications could choose their own arbitration system so, depending on t eon the doubt that you use could dictate which armotration system that you'reusing I wan es, maybe back seppable here ecuse. The conversation that we'rehaving sounds like origin is becoming like the one: Stop shotop shop, UMapplication for this type of thing,...

...which isn't necessarily the case rightlike this is even booking at your website. It seemsas though you're, focusing mostly on the protocol level type stuff likeYoure, knd of corner of the market, of making two setted markets work and thena long gray. I build applications on top of that to make the detentiddecisions like arbitration in the first place as long as you're general enough,anyone can build an application with their own design decisions on how theydo this type of stuff. An right. You may be the first intrance into thismarket using your own protocol by dog, fooding it, but it it's still free forother people to use in incorporate, under whatever they're else's buildings.Tha Key idea here exactly exactly, and it'skind of a fine line that we're walking with m having the proof of concept eingout there, but making it clear that we want other people to build on us, whichis why we have a lot of partners that have committed to build on our on ourprotocol so ag. So actually, this KINDOF bringsup a question that I have with a lot of these decentralized systems is businessmodel. Now I know that you are speaking to the engineering side of things, butYoue brought off the arbitration side, which kind of hings my Busi. You know not strong BusinessAcanin, but some business acmen, I'm like okaywait. That's the value addhere and that there needs to be some sort of thereare, always easy, somesort of trust identity. If you're gong arbitrate something you can do that Oo,dsentralized manner, but someony ye still manage the reputation of thosepeople and and do some sort of independent audit of the h. The actualarbitration system itself Um- and you know their their reputation- needs tobe staked in that process being true in some manner and I'm kind of wonderingwell forsoff, do you have a business model already set up for this, and ifdot are you considering? Maybe the arbitration AROD as being sort of asource of generating actual revenue through the orge of protocal? Fourorigin, Um yeah, as you said, I'm on the engineering side, so take anything.I say about business models with a grain of salt for apin yeah. I don't at this point. Arbitration does notplay in super strongly to our our business model, which is more aroundyou know, using origin tokens in in the listing creation process, um that side of the equation, not thearbitration side, but believe me, we certainly thought about the Arbitraincorporated a arbotration okay. So Your Business Ball s actuallyrevolving around the origid token. So it can ou explain to me a little moreabout how tha how that's used and how you actually receive income from it or how h like is there? Do you get likea percent of everything? That's that's h posted or your listings go a littleabove and beyond what the actual cost is directly elicits withus with the earwe we definitely don't take a cut, that's kind of like the whole promiseof not being th a new midtleman and Tryin to think we're still settling on exactly whatthe details will be of how the token is used, but the bottom line is, it willbe. You know, needed to transact on the network kind of going back to herdiscussion around user friction. I think we figure out a pretty good wayto make it just so. The cellar is the onlyone that needs to be aware of organ token and the buyers can kind oftransact seamlessly Um. But beyond that, I will say in lock, soI don't want to commit us to too much of what we're actually going to do andthere are smarter people than me on the team that are working on that. NOTHAT'S FYN! I don't worry about it Um. You know it's just something that I Ilike to touch on a little bit, sometimes um the UH, the Um, the the big problem, that a lot ofthese system haveis is like what is the business model when majority of thebusiness models surrounding all of these systems historically throughouthal of history, revolves around this centralization, so we're trying to comeup with new ways of incentivizing people to start and runbusinesses that MRI let this technology that alsostill add the value at a benefit, but without becoming the next paelt US yeah.Yes, I mean like the basic idea. Is You want the value of the token to go upnow? That's how origin gets paid n. We don't get paid by taking a little cutof every transaction so which I think is pretty exciting e,not as an economist or a business guy. But I like the idea that the the theterms basically under which we get paid as origin are, are set in stone. Youknow on the mutable block chain and...

...it's not like a centralized servicelike an Arabn or noobers hat, are aware once they get into a good position,they start cranking on down the screws and like let's extract maximum value.Now that We'e got to where we are M, it's it's nice that you know in someperfect future world where origin is now. You know like eighty percent ofall transactions are goingto origin. We literally can't go back and you know esay like now we're on top we're going to like turn now we're going toincrease our cut to ten percent, so the idealist Tim me really loves that side.I mean it's it's it's kind of the idea of of tokenize protocalls in the firstplaceis to M, find a problem. Um inlike disintermediated create a tool, that's really useful.Within that problem. Space Nd then saying you need this token, to use thattool and say, go and an you hope that, then anybody who uses it has anincentive to get other people to use it. That grows the utility of the entire,the entire protocol or network, or so on so forth, which it's Kindof likethis, a cynogistic self feeding cycle of of a utility, hopefully Um, right eas,that's the goal. I I think an a lot of the type of stuff is is to build thingsthat are useful that require the use of the underlying token. And then thevalue of the token is usually goes up with the people who add value to thenetwork. Exactly and I like the idea that the payment isa bit more m connected to the work that is done like wocould have, likespeaking tenically, I'm sure any of US could make a fairly decent craigswishcloe in a weekend. You know we could probably make a pretty decent Airbean Bclone in a week or two Um, but even of what we created was liketen times better than the central lie. Servics Ou know we w. We could never break in simply because of the networkeffects that these existing sentralized services have Um. So I guess I I like the idea that Um r yous wit spenlister they they were like a little like it was. It was a nice likeCherrier bike service, orriginally heard ofithis like Sharan Economy byand.They just shut down recently e a few months ago, and it was kind o sadecause. I used the service a lot and basically was like this. Nice justdidn't make enough money. You know it wasn't an Arbn B. It wasn't an Oover,they weren't able to attract big V CS to come in, but I like the idea thatwith origin, someone who just likes bikes could you know follow our tenminute how to make a marketplacetatorial and get like a rent.Your bike out service made- and you know, ship it and notthone. He peoplearound the world ane able to share bikes and and the guy that like wrote,the thing you know he's not looking to be the next. You Know Ouber, you knowtravist whatever guy, he just wants to share bikes, and I I love that visionthat you know someone who just has a passion for somethin. He could justlike write. The atit goes out there and it you know, goes around the world yeahhobbyest, Airbean B. How weird is that like hobbyist h like? Oh, I don't know Someh Ho's like reallyinto model trains and they want to set up an the expose, so they las like y? UK ow like a grating, a marketplace. You could bring y? U I don't know rent outspace on this or whatever, like you could create your own sort of likebecause of that it. It doesn't really require the weight and the scale andthe necessary quot network of facts. You can actually crate market placesfor marketplaces or advertisement systems for marketplaces, tot all obeythe same protocol, and then people who are interested in a certain topic canfollow the topic and not necessarily the specific website that they don'tknow about. That's burried in needle in a Hayspack of other other websites,which are all super innihe. Instead, you can crate sort of like a red it formarketplaces, which is kind of an interesting like. I, like the, I think, the termhere that I think that you're trying to get to is like itsentivizes microcommunities, whereasbeforehand when you have centralized services that have massive numbereffects. Those the mom and pop shops that have good service but can't getinto the catbreak into the network cannot survive economically. This ispotentially a way in which they can, because their success isn't tied totheir own space. It's tied to the all all of the two seted marketplace space,so I cou say you have one large massive Um mover within the origid protocol that the success of that one massivemover rises, the tide of the success of all of the other smaller market placeswithin the ENTARIGO system. Exactly so, let's say that there is like somedominant. I don't Kno what it's going to be home sharing or whatever. Ingoing back to earler conversation, you build up this like great reputation,and now you want to go rent a bike on Joe's. You know bike service that hemade last weekend. You already hade...

...your cellar reputation to to go withyou like t. The marketplace is already ready to go. You don't have to wait forpeople to guild up reputations, Um Yeah. I I love that Tha. That network effect.Basically, I guess the goals with es centralization. We can make an evenstronger network effect than the current sort of monof belief, like theMani network effects that exist within the central ice services yeah- and thisis something I've personalyi've always been around. I think in two thousandand five I I started, I bought a domain and STD trid to play with somethingcalled. I tried to critacycl online carmadotnet because I I noticed thesame th. There's all these. These these reputation systems, which are allacross all these other websites, an there was someway. I could use likeopen ID s. What I was trying to actually kind o like make them all talkto each other. You know that'd be great, but the actual value at a lot of thesecentral systems is that they hold Hon Nto that reputation, that's ther,that's their system, their way of doing thing, e therometrics! Is there sothere's no way to Kinda like cross it with the bloc Shain Tat Otii was goingthrough your sport contracts. Again, as you could ell. I do my research alot on the call I startd digging through code dos time, two things that kind ofhopped outt Um rolls are fixed to buyer and sell it. I can definitely foresee marketplacesUm that require more abstract role, models,rol role, baseaxess control system. So I'm kindo wondering if you evedythought some expanding that particular aspect of of how you're running theOrchan Protogol. Can You you first give an example of what you're talking aboutlike an agent or something it literally has an enumerator in there to call BierI'm talking about an example of of more abstract roles, sure you might want toassign an arbitrator or an arbitration system in the actual purchasingmechanism right up front. You might want to have a extral auditorm you might require due to international trade law any' shipping to well. This is thisgoes, and the other question I have, which is regarding states is thatthey're, not dynamic you might require inanlaw might requirethat certain things sit in holding and go through testing before they areallowed to enter the country. That kind of notification could be clearlyupdated in a block chain and also trustlessly exchanged in that manner aswell. I meaning that, although I'm thinking several years downe the lineum at the moment, it's kind of baked into in a hard coated, you know pain inthe corner kind of way where the the ire, an cellar, are fixed, enumeratedvalues and the and the actual status of particular thing is thing. I'm calling a thing isgoing through is is also a fixd list of of states as well, and I've seen tonsof different ways of configuring that particular aspect of it and feel othat's one of those things you can kind of also abstract out now, for now I getfor adoption. You want to kind of stick with. What's easy and people canunderstand, I'm just lordring. What are your thoughts on how you could grow theprotocol, so things like this would not be fixed Um, and why are you kindodoing that now and why did you go with the decisions that you'r currentlycurrently going at? Or do you see what I'm saying yeah? I think I think I do,and I I think well, one like you said thisnow we wantto get out soon, but I think more importantly, want to keep it assimple as possible. Like you know, what's the heart of the marketplace andtrusting that not trusttialso, counting on thatpeople will build on top of it and extend it. So, for example, m you know it's it's very possible that,like right now the K ow the celler address. That's just an etheriumaddress. It's quite postible, it's totallypossible that you could create a service which you know allows you and maybe some other trusted agentto both of you- control share access to to this key, which represents both ofyou. So to speak. So IA, venue, older you wan, running out tables orsomething out of venue you're the purchase particular person O runn inthe market place for selling these tickets. The venueholder still owns theseeds, so you both need to kind of sign off on the factoty seats are allocatedso they have a stake in the game. You have MI stake of the game, you're doingthe selling, but they also need some sort of way of actually beingparticipants in or contract. I guen see that as being sort of like a situationthat might follow the model, but still not actually match. What's currently,though, Rice, when you see Byron Celler, I mean those are roles, it doesn't haveto be individual people and that could be smart contracts that could bewhatever you want and even things like...

...notifications of, like, I think youwere saying like you know, you need something you know. International Agency needs tobe notified that the autumn was shipped or something you know, there's nothingit's a public watching. So you know anyone can set up kind of like a Bot to like monitor the contract, tosee when the state is changes and send an email or whatever. So I think thereare goals, whis kind of capture, the heart of what is a marketplace and notmake things so obscure, or you know convoluted Asso as to block someonefrom making tools. On top of it, I think, would be arpt. You know kind oflike smtp, it's a very simple male potocall, there's a million weirdthings you can do with email, but the gold as MPP is just to capture theheart of sending messages and let other people build fancier protocolls on topof it. That makes sense and and some COR brings up a lot uppose to be busyis it is you know his ideals, an minorline as well is that you know we want to keep Thi thin andis fair, Metaly Cen bare essential as humanly possible when it comes to thisstuff, because you never know how it's going to be used. It's the only wone tohave the essentials and and part of the point of me bringing these kind ofthings up on these interviewsis because is his counter to how we currentlybuild centralizes I mean at centralized systems, we tend to shoot for the moon,and you know ultimate flexibility. You can do everything in anything in ourcentralized system, so we're building the whole kitchen sink for you, becauseif we don't have that particular thing, we lost a customer, whereas with thesedesentralized systems, the Olness is genuinely on the implementer toactually utilize. The protocol in the most flexible way, and the only thingthe protogloss to do is is provide a capability for them to do the thingsthat they want to do on their own, and they don't have to specify thatnecessarily which is kind of why I did actually bring up the INNIMIRATIONISSUP,because I kind of felt like that could be something that could be owritten bya smart contract Um in and of itself Um and but that again from the bareboataspect, all of the things you've listed there for even this state. The statehas a waiting payment. Shipping pending fire, pending cellar, pending indisputereview period and complete thite. Those are all things t at every singlemarketplace will have like, or it least kind of generalized ster, Yeah Yeah, soyeah. Those are the states that I think the spart contract must care about, andanything else, like you said, is pretty interesting to me. Is that there'sthere's some sort of Um you coul you co LD make a smart contract as the cellaryou can make as mart contract as the buyer, Um and hell. Those could evenprobably reference other marketplace things themselves. I guess I don't seething really stopping it. Righ ut, you lean another another Mi, you can chainchain transaction so as thing an go through a supply chain, things exchangehands m. This kind of protocol could actually do a sort of like a supplychain selling mechanism, meaning that you could actually have things go allthe way across nd and with this terr of stuff, and this waiting holding thingthat could be a sidecase for one mar contract and once it gets out of that,then it goes to the open market place within the country of origin that you'ryou're worried about, and so you partition things anyway. You reallywant or need to it's all about how creative you are as the emplementor tao eoytis. What's that I think atern here is is is, is that'skind of. I guess the do mea. The people they're talking about is the CRYPTOeconomic, primitive. You want to try and find the smallest Um socialcontract that people have and then you want to bright. You want to generalizeit while keeping it as small as possible in terms of the actual socialcontract, the thing that you're doing with another person, and then you havethe smallest piece of something that's tokenized and written into acontract, and then you can test that based on that particular functionalityand then build up using either that, along with other criptoioniprimitives,to then build larger and larger and more complex systems, but you don'thave to worry about the functionality of each individual peace, but this isis heecomic primitive of a two sided marketplace. One person sellingsomething one person buying something and all of the mechanic mechanism design involved with doingthat type of behavior yeahand. What's what's interesting is that if you wereto compare this to a sentiralized system again, there are things that tend to happen as stateschange M and you would need to implement thosetriggers so you'd need to go okay. This is gone. This is now in shipping, okay,so that triggers the UPS ups protocol. You don't want to do that with the waythat this works and the inclination a lot of people have is to build thatkind of thing. You don't want to build...

...that in a decentralize architecture,because it's't open shared Dayat a base, so all you need to do is tell them. Iwant you to track this particular market, this particular sale processand whoever needs to monitor that builds their own triggers integratestheir own thing into it, and then we've become completely agnostic of whetheror not they're using sap, whether or not they're using simlogistic system.We don't care anymore, because it's up to those particular systems to be awareof the protocol in a very genetic generic thin way and then add thecomplexity that they need, specifically by monitoring the blockchain andmonitoring how the transactions proceed through the blotching. So we'vecompletely eliminated the need for all this central architecture that wouldtrigger off an event which sends a notification to xwise systems, which wesupport are constantly adding and removing supporting systems. Thosesupporting systems now are pole mechanisms and, and that changes thewhole way that we we build stuff, not a very uncool word and the bauty is like and a as anentrepreneur. It's like every one of those like a business opportunity too.You know L E, you know if this takes off, you know, there's a m R, there's amarket where there's a a business need for that ups integration. Also, someonewrites that you need the like third party agent to manage your listings,maybe y w you make. Someone writes that service and it's because we're not trying tolike you o think of every possible usecase and bake it in from day. One,it's like no we're just rying to handle the very little thin base case and ou know let let a ton of otherpeople build on top of it and that Lan HOS control of yourjobscript libra. So you don't need them like necessarily,if somebody else spposts to build custom stuff to interact with yourspart contracts, they can, but you have an out of the box solution which peoplecanden implement and actually integrate in their systems, which is anotherproblem that people are having with blockchain now is tooling, so I'm kindof wondering what does your tooling roadmap look like and what? How do yousee? Enterprise integration working with Sometonewell, like I said it s,basically we're going to launch with the origin JS library, which is just to change the primitive to market placeapermative. So you don't have to think about blocks and smart contracts andgas prices et CETERA. You just you know, create listing Passin, the the Jasonthat like specifies thelisting et Cetera, Um, so our goal there will be to make thatas easy as we you K, ow. We look at like the Stripe Apis that are just like,like very simple. Anyone who knows, wrb KIP can drop it in and use it, andthat's that's our goal out of the gate Um shortly they're, after probably twothousand and nineteen some time you know kit, pyphon libraries and maybeother languages and yeah, it's gratful e goot. Of course that's aGeat er start to wrap this up as there are there any questions that we didn'task you that you hope that we would mwe've done some really exciting workaround messaging, which were I'm pretty excited about case. For example, youknow o know, n any marketplace. There's often a bit of a back and forth of youknow hey what what color is that or MHM OS? Is that negotiations exactly it'sokayvo bring my dog, or would you knock the price by? You know five dollars? IfI didn't do this or whatever so one of Er engineers upenn designe,this incredible messaging system, which is it is private. You know so IC's likejust between the two of you, but at the same time completely audiible, so thatif it goes to arbitration and you need to prove to the arbiter now this guysaid that my dog was okay. Then you can basically reveal a key tothe arbitrator. Um To you know, reveal a conversation and so thatas been areally fun technical challenge that I'm really proud of the work that we did onthat. You know what porcalls you used for that 'cause. That's basically, likeyou know, encrepted with selective disclosure whahow, do you? How do youdo that using IPS pubsub and the orbit DB iswhat's used for basically the the Dayo store and back and forth, and then Um? What is it web ARTC for the sort of youknow, browser o Browser Communication and then the complicated series of youk. each side does one time signing operation in Metamasq or whatever, withtheir private key, just as we if initiate andprove, who they are andthen from that there's like a shared key that they use for the ongoingconversation so that they don't have to...

...sign. You know each Messin Tosay, the L,essentially AE state channel exactly exactly and it's kind of funnynow that we've built messaging just as a Funnya side. All the other engineers,including myself, are now like thinking of all these other use cases for it of,like you know, like an arbitration of like Oh, I want to offer a ten dollarrefund. Oh, we could stick that in the messaging system. 'CAUSE, that's Li metsystem works for everything. Exactly now we're like. Oh no messaging hasbecome our like side channel but yeah, it's fun great, all right Um! Well, howcan people get get hold of? You learn more contact. You walanesly origin Protocol Com. We haveopen engineering meetings every Wednesday at one PM, Pacific Timebetween vall by any engineers who are curious about orgin to to hang out youkno all of our developments down the open, so those are really fun and yousee some amazing demos like that messaging y thing. I just describe andH for me personally, I'm standat origin, Portocol, tcom and wandering stand onour discord and ontwitter right great. Well, I thinks come Aon.The show Toan Jo something there sosame. Thank you deat great thanks for havingme Al. You listeneras out there. If you like this, then cick the lihe button osubscribe, show your friends share it on titter. I I me at corpettion twittercalling at that Callin Cuchet, Collin cusce and in the pacas Tet hashing itout pod on twitter websites, hashing it out got stream andthat'll, be it Nex. Comin, on thanks Peban, you SAI TRT ME.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (108)