Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 19 · 3 years ago

Hashing It Out #19: Gitcoin - Kevin Owocki

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We talk with Kevin Owocki, co-founder of Gitcoin. No joke, this episode is compelling. Gitcoin is a decentralized application which incentives open source contributors with bounties for bugs and features. Kevin tells us about the creation of Gitcoin, how their incentive models work, their architecture, and their alternate funding mechanism for open source projects, CodeFund. We then take a trip to Jupiter and dream of the future of decentralization, theorycrafting what that world will look like and what we need to build to get there. Exciting topics!

WL intering Gind atwork welcome to hashing it out a POTCASS forrethougt to the attach intovators behind blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networds. We dive into the weeds Tigutd at Wyan how peoplebuild this technology the problems they face along the way I'm listening tolearn from the best in the Business Shou can join heir ranks. Okay episode. Nineteen hashing it outtoday we're here with Kevin Ilwauke from Kickcoin, a cofounder of Kit coin,which will dive Ento quite deeply. I'm no excited about this one 'cause I'vI've watched it Um from a myriad of reasons, but today, asalways, I'm here with my Trussi Co host Callin Cichet SA Hlo con hello, Gon,all righty Kevin. Why don't you start out by giving us a Qu, quickintroduction of like how you get n introduced to this space in general andUm? What gcoin in and how a e you Gon Ta Volt Yeah? Thank so much for having me onthe show calling and coring. I I've been investing in the in the CRYPTOspace since H for about six or seven years now and I have been building forthe last two or three years. I was initially introduced to the Space Biepipermarium who's, now the etherium foundation and is in charge of a lotother python stuff and recently really strindy. So him and I go way back andhe got me into the space back in twenty fourteen round Wen a therium was doingtheir SCO and since then, I've just been sort of experimenting withbuilding things in the in the space ihave Green Computer Clience, and Ibuilt five six SC projects off of bloc chain based technology. Before I cameto get coin and its just t e process of learning the technology training stufffailing at it and iterating until I got to something that's meaningful and H,pretty excited to be working on Git CIN and be working with S. people in the PiFun pushing these centralization. It smart contracts forward. So when don'twe? When don't we start with he bird's Iview of what goodcoin is hat? Whatproblem does it solve and why does Bloccha ne help it solve it? Yeah. So gitcoin is a network ofdevelopers they're looking to do bounties on open,sorce software, and so he, the idea is that U, as a funder, can take any gethope in issue any future or bug or security thing that you don't want todo and then you can put a etherium or your Bo on it and that gets paid outwhen the when the work is completed. And so it's a way of kin of Likgigoconomy meets the block chain, open, spors space and our mission is to growopen source software. We think that there's a real problem where opensource oftwercrits billions of dollars o year a year in economic value, butthere's no value capture for the developers and so part of the idea hereis to give developers some of some ability tomonotize their work and open source software and they're already doingthings that they love and meeting New People and building new skills. Theyshould get paid for the economic value that they're delivering. So that's thecort product that we shipped with in November of last year and wo've doneabout two hundred thousand bouncies on the platform thus far and we're justgetting started so pretty excited to be supporting the etherium Itherianfoundations, repose metamask truffle, some of the best projects in the spacewith bounty very cool. So I noticed that you aren't using a native token toincentivize people you're going straight to a theorum, and people arebeing sunspised directly with the therium. Yet your Git Hu name isGitcoyn ICO. So I think at one point you were considering. I would like to know what the decisionprocess behind that was what led there and what the results of just goingstraight to strt Tohe Theryuar, and how did that evolution occur? Internally N.You Know How's the results of that. Yes, so how man, the marketing leadorconsensus, would have cajoled me to mention that Ke con is nifebut. Iforgot to do it. The GITHUB name is actually GICON CO, which is supposed tobe short for GITCON COR. But now that I realize people are reading it asGtgikcoin Ioi did read that sorry, I'm wrong inscapen akikunasia. So I mean Idon't know. I think the Gitcoin is kind of as a name is sort of beachfront realestate in...

...in space, because it's it's G, yeah,Adece, eversion control and it's one caradro from bitcoin but um. You know, I think it's giving peoplethe wrong impression that we have a token an ou know within reason. 'cause.Ninety percent of projects in the space have is hopen sacually just launched apage, a marking page called Gipcoin, DOTCO, Tas, Notov and Um. It sort ofexplains our philosophy here, basically a we're in a position of crivilege tobe funded by consensus and Joe Lubin, who has given us a very long runway todo stuff, that's good for the space and isn't Super Wad about revenue ormonecization right now, but m in the long term. When we do monotize, wethink pocmation is perhaps not the right model for what we're doing atGigpoin Um. I think that open source software developers are, you know, thwr, also we're we're in a little bit of token backlash right now. We'rerecaring this interview in August of twenty eighteen in Sebar market andwe've been through the ICO boom in Boston. An you know, there's there'stoken backlash among some of the sophisticated investors in the spaceand m. You know I. I think that software developers are some of themore sophisticated h consumers in this space, but but but more exmore. Likegenerally, I don't think that for Bouanties, that Tokanization is theright model for what we're trying to do. A lot of our friends that have doneoganization have have have had to deal with two differentcustomers: two different audiences, the speculators in telegram that just wantto see a return on their investment and then they're actual users, and so we'vebeen able to just focus on our users an achieving product market fit and we'regoing to figure out other monititation streams down the line I mean, I thinkwe might take a cut of every bouncy on the platform. That's one thing thatwe've talked about: I'm I'm on the working group foreip one Fre, three,seven, which is subscriptions on the block chain, and I think that there'svery possibly a subscription type model where you pay twenty five die a monthor twenty five dollars a month. Then you get unluubited use of features onthe platform or something like that. So I think that Te long story for it isthat we don't think that w. We think that we're building a world financialcomputer in the Ethyrian stace right, an tokenization, is just the firstbusiness model that has come along and I think that we'll see many many otherbusiness models come along and so we're kind o taking the long view and waitingto see what debalve or we crot on sition yeah. That makes sense. Iactually see taking t cut as being more of an issue than just unlockingfeatures. Personally A I don't have the marketresearch, the back thesulf you guys do, but my take on it is if you, if youtake a cut someo, you ill bell a system where they don't take a cut. You knowthere's ar transaction if he's built into a lot of a lot of this you're,just basically adding your own kind of transaction fee and you're, not evenreally technically doing anything to maintain the system. The stuff you're, maintaining and thevalue you add is in the additional features: th continued development andthat kind of thing- and maybe even a on off payment tounlock a feature, would be something cool. Like Hey. You know, likein a lotof game models, have this kind of thing where they're just like hey. If youwant to unlock this uh, this fancy new character, Youe got topay five bucks. You know that kind of thing, so yeah, but this mis o some waytowards the idea of H. I guess decentilization in my opinion,is that Li e, when everyone owns their own, their own data or their own value, thevalue is in like when creating a business. You optimize four services,and so this sy this hype of platform I good con is, is- is a service platformyou're enabling people to Youre insedivising people like developers tofix issues for open source projects which typically don't have ways ofdoing so. So if you enable that type of thing you build a community arounddoing that exact, th, t exact thing and for open source projects. They thenflock to that to get that service which they don't want to spend time doingthemselves y and that's like that's, that's th,there's no token in that. There's no coin in that, so you have to then finda business model that supports the flow of money as opposed to the UM increasing value proposition of of a given token y Thi is, I wouldn't call this a protocol,and I think some like some of these, like scarcity protocols that are pitching up may have some type ofreason to have a token to then make their token valuation grow. But in thistype of thing, don't I don't that's not necessary. So there's no reason to haveone yeah yeah. I mean I think, that you're absolutely right. I think that,like you know, a lot of the focus on on people saying that they're Tocin,utility soken or a protocol Tokian in my opinion is, is just around sort ofSCIRTIN B. U s regulation theyre just...

...trying to get away around? U S!Regulation! I think that twe want to have their e cake and eat. It too, likeyou say, you're doing a utility token Um, and I I think that you want all thebenefits of a security, but with none of the delutev equity, Ras or oranything like that when you do a utility Tokenioan. This is one of theQuorti Frenchyears that were building int K, one three three: seven, thesubscription model so, like you think about a subscription model for abusiness like Netflex, for example, you pay nine ninety nine a month and as aconsumer, I don't have to read some insane long white paper in order tomake a purchase decision there. I don't have to understand the bestingschedules of founders. I just pay ten bucks a month and a cancel. If I don'tlike the service that I'm receiving and on th on the on the on the service sideof things, I know that I have x consumers that are paying wie dollarsper month and my Trz and then my conversion rate is Azz. Prime, and so Iknow what my cash floow wis going to be twelve months out. So it's just a greatway of alligning incensives between consumers and and service providers.And so I think that you know I'm really excited about exploring thesubscriptions route. Forget point, but I'm not exactly sure. U N. One of the reasons we're havingthis conversation out in the open is because we want our burgery Kreen, befor Focus Organization and, and I think that it makes sense to the community tohelp decide what the business model is going to be Rioinn and, like I saidwe're in a position of privilege that Joe Lubin is not prefering us tomonotize at all. He just wants to us to accelerate etheriums, lead and and beimpacts in the Egosystem, and so you know if I had raised a VC rounds andI'd, I did go Li e pitch on Stanhill roadfor Gitcoyn. I'd be running out of money right now and I'd be going roundtalking about Monden sttation with a bunch of BCS, and you know just havinga backer like Joe who's WHO's, letting us take the long view and and figurethis out very thoughtfully instead of with a real sense of urgency has been,has been super go, and it enables conversations like this. Where we can,we can figure out what Modelis is right for our community. Well, let's, let'stake a second and- and I guess, give the listener a perspective 'cause, Ithink a good, a good distribution of our Oour lisenership is developers. So what like? How does Gat Coin Work? Howdo they use your system like? How do they? How do they make money usingGikcoit? Can you walk us through the step, so I was like. Oh, I found aproblem or a an issue or a bug within a specificalresource platform. They hathey have enabled gidcoin within their platform. How do we get paid forsolving that issue? Yeah? So if, if this was a videopod cast, I would justshare my screen and give a demo, but unfortunately, it's not so I'll, justsort of walk through the steps. So basically the the sort of like purchase,intent or the BACIN is asociated with when you're a software developer, andyou have some sort of feature or bug that you want turned around. But youdon't have the time or skills SAI turnitit around, but you o you're an io,and you have some some ers twenty tokens to spend there' some eath tospend you go to gi, Coindat Cov, slash new and then you can paste in a GTHUBissue url, so we're very purposefuly built on top of GITHUB. We think thatther're a great collaboration tool and we just want to be thenincentivizationlayer on top of that, and so you take the get hup issue url, which containsThi Scot for the feture bug, and you pasted into get point that coast lastnew. It prefills a bunch of information like the programming languages, usedthe title of the bug, the description of the feture and then allow you to setsome MEDADATA. And then we press submit that issue and whatever eath you want tostake against. It is put on to a smart contract called Standard Bounties,which is a standard for Bouncis on the three and block chain and has beenaudited by consensus, diligent and and uh, and it's pretty fast andsecure in andwe like it a lot and basically that's that's the source of truth. For for thebounties on on the UGOSYSTEM and and once the transaction is confirmed, it'sstimitted, it's it's on Git Coi, it's on the oin issue explorer and it getsemailed out towere network ith software developers that could work on it. So Ithink that, like you know, everything I described up until now is just themechanics of of how it's done, but like the real value, Yo ad is instantlymarketing your open issues to eighty five hundred software devellopersacross the world who wants to work on blockchain stuff. So that's our realcompetitive advantage like that's the value of Ule getpoint, is not like allthe mechanics that I just described, but the fact that you don't have towork with a recruiter to hire someone and pay that recruiter twenty percentof the first year, salary and and like bring someone on two months later aftera bunch of interviewing it's just instantly broadcast to everyone on thegitcoin network and that you work on a very small scope. You know just like,like, let's call it like a hundred I counnty together. It's like try beforeyou buy hiring for or open source in...

...batching projects, so you've tied yourself to a thereomnetwork and that makes sense M. do you see a future where you will besupporting other coins, such as using atomic slops for bicoine, or somethinglike that or like win Er yeah and sorry o mean to cut you off mequestion. I'm just so excited anothe question that I we're looking into using BTC relay toallow people to post bounties on Getcoin withwith Bitcoin, which I justlove saying. But one of the problems that we havewith with Bicen is that right now, Gitcoin doesn't hold access to any ofyour funds. We don't have your private keys when you post a bouncy and wedon't have h access to ny the Ponand so with big point Tis, not assophisticated of a smart contract layer that we can use for Escro of the fundsand so we're just trying to figure out. How do we do that integration withoutgit point holding any access to the funds and without causing any of thoseissues? So I'd say it's a work in progress, but in the spirit ofdecentralization and open sort, andw we can figure it out together so working in security. I have thiskind of idea, especially with in the blockting space of a responsibledisclosure or anonymous disclosure. In some cases, when I want to report a bogor someone finds a serious bugin onces report t say maybe a consensus breakingchange within within Um bch. This happened recently. Someone wants toRupport this type of thing, but doesn't want the attribution to themselvesbecause if it actually ends up happening before they get to fix it,then all the blame goes to them because they it's the only person. They knowthis bug exists. What type of mechanisms exist within God coin that alot of people to disclose some type of you know breaking change anonymously,wellhe getting paid? Yes, I mean, I think, that that's really importantconsideration for for that usecase. I actually when, when I initially want toget CLANU posted a security bounty to th to the platform that H, basically,it was just like it was like an a lost bote with and Tis is backwhen eath waslike a hundred and fifty bucks. I think it was four bucks for critical bug allthe way down to like point. Onete TOR IT I four Bucks E in forty for acritical Bo. Okay, like that's, really cheap, Maan, a mior yeah, and this isbefore we were funded by consensus. So it was all coming out, bi, personal,but Um, and so like. Basically, what happenedin that scenario was that someone reached out to me privately over ourour slack Um and was like hey. I found the critical bug with h with yourplatform, like someone can inject a script onto onto a bounty if they putxyznd they're g hub issue and so and and they have the exact considerationthat you mentioned, which is like I don't W. I don't particularly feel likeany T, reve wo. I am in order to tell you this, but you know Cana still get paid and I asGeher Jus, there's two authentication layers on on get coin. One is the etherium networkand it's your theory Madrus and the other is get hub. So you can log inether, get ho use your name and submit inhabit attached to your gethub aprofile, and I just I said to the person I said just just submit.Yourethereum address to this smart contract and I'll pay you out directlythrough the ther, am address and you don'l ever really have to to reveal your your gihub identity oranything about who you are, and so I paid that person out and I ti it tothis day have no idea who they are. But you know obviously they saved us from agreat deal of hassle. Someone had exploded that in the wild, so I don't know if that's a I don't have areal, solid security background. So I don't know if that's responsedisclosure to a t, but that's what happened at specific Instinsen. I thinkthat get coin is very focused on being an incensivizationlayer not being aCollaboracritian layor at all, like we're not going to rebuild chat, we'renot going to rebuild, get hug and it's because those those tools work prettywell by themselves already, and so I think it's up to the h up to the bothsides of the market to communicate in along with those criteria. However,ever they want- and you know that's how it worked for mewhether or not our like marketing and communications represent that right now,I I couldn't say it's still kind of early days, but I think that's probablythe best best direction, people who going yeah, because you have- I mean you- have two kind of different kindsof disclosures. When you talk about Um bounties right, one is going to be game.Breaking changes with the terms of security, like I found something thatbreakes your entire platform and then I...

...like. Oh, we need a Ui fix for thisvsarious thing. We don't have the time to do it. We would like someone elsethat contribute, Um and and what's- and you also havetwo different kinds of people who would like to disclose these sens of things.One is, I want to get paid for telling someone that there's a problem in theirsystem versus me, exploiting it myself and one person that's trying to buildup their profile. That says, I fix problems right, and so you havedifferent public views of doing these types of things and then different kinds of things and I think,a platform that enables this type of situation accounts for those four different scenarias m yeah. I I love learning about all theseindividual usecases n in software that I just never knew about before, andit's a reflection of cobast. The use cases for get Clin can be that, likeyou, can do a small bug fixe to a whole big feature to security stuff in insideof our pererformance. The scope of knowledge work in software is so is sobroad and so making the P. The the Potform, not only broad enough tohandle all those usecases but deep enough on each of thos individualusecases is, is something that that I'm really trying to eat arawor. So can you go a little more about m how you structured your smart contracts,actually facilitate these kind of bounties and how you can verify that the owas fixedand like what's the actual process or you know, Um completing this? Is it allthrough the smart co through the smart contract? Is there a secondary layer tokind of solution built on top of it that well that enables us? What is whatis your platform? Look like from an architectiural standpoant lot of ground to cover there? I'm gladyou asked it, especially since the audience is technical, so I will saythat I am very lucky to be built upon standard bounties, which is thestandard for Bountis onetherium, and it was written by a fellow named Markabaonof the Mounty's network. We kind of see them Falar, for what we're doing and weseek gitcoin is just the application lair, and because of that, I have notwritten a single La and revounting O, and- and so so. I think that I'm very Luy to justhave that out of the box to build to buil get clean with my focus is onfinding prodic market and on building something great for software developersand his on Ane Navolo at all and main isecureanslly. There's a few steps to a bounty, one that you issue a bounty, Yon Gicinand that involves funding it and describing what you want done, the SEC.The second step is someone submits an antestation that they solved that scope,and I includes maybe Gihu PR, Url and UH and and when, when the funder receivesthat attestation, they th that someone has turned around the bounty on theplatform. Then they can either accept it or they can comment back to the userand say no, you didn't handle X or hey. Why don't you? Why don't you do Wy andso there's like a typically a cycle or two O viteration where tespack is metand both sides of the market are happy and then, after that they can clickaccept, and then at that point the funds get released to the bounty hunterand hopefully everyone's happy. Now that's the happy path of the platformor becomes you know what happens when someone abandons the bounty or whenwhen Ati hunted puts in work and the funder doesn't want to pay it out, andI think that, like of those ucases, one of the problems that we have right nowis with bounting abandon it. You know, since we're sort of a green fieldplatform, you see people that wire long and will and we'll just say, like hey yeah, I'mgoing to work on this, and then they don't do anything for the next, likefive or six days and there's an opportunity cost to the rest of thecommunity there. So we started building in this little feature, th t likepasturs them every couple of days for an update th. If they don't respond,then we remove them from the bounty and we a we ding. Their good coin profile justsaid, like Blass, future funders know that this person didn't fallow throughwhen they said they were going to. So I think, t there's sort of like aexpectation setting part of the software that that we have to put inthere to make sure that everyone's expectations are met, but we are reallylucky that Git Coyn is built on top of get hub and no one wants to be a jerkin open source software. Your Gid have identity for many intenson purposes. Isyour is your resume and is your open source ortolio, and so we've beenreally really really lucky that we have this ethos of the mission of growing upand source and and because of that...

...those social norms prevent a lot of badactors from from causing problems in the system. I do think that down theline, we're going to be really well served by introducing arbitration intothe platform, so the standard bounty's contract has a has a an address for an arbiter addresswhich which can basically decide in favor of the thunder or the bountyhunter. If there's a dispute now right now, we set bat to Zerex Zero, which isthe nulladress in the platform. But in the future, we're going to be bounty's network is developing a anetwork called staking network and it's basically an arbiter's platform on ononetherium and you'll. Basically like have a council of five arbaters that tobe escalated to and three out of five have to decide in one direction inorder to in order to in order to resolve a anarbitration. So for that, like point three percent of times in which thereis really a major dispute, that will be our disentualized way of of dealingwith it. So I think you ask me a couple of questions about like what is thearcitecture of ditcoin and all that kind of stuff, but I'll pause there forfurther Commenan, and I can tell you more about the architecture of goodcoin. If you like sure, actually we had a guest on Loganbruche who had kind ofan interesting approach to how to handle some baancies of his ownie, going rigphe's B, he's been doing criscy or Toasti coin and he's beendoing an academy recently called the Cryptio privantive academy, whichbuilds off O tosicoin and trying to do other types of cripto economicprimitives Y. I was like at Devton M. I was at ductconfree last year and I had this like funny like three hour spurt, where,like Jarad, announced status, open downthe up on stage at Debcon, and thenI was like eating lunch and then I meant Logan, who was like. Oh I'm,working on a bouncan platform, Al Yeah three hour skirt. I meant likefour people who were working on on bouncy platforms, trew UPAND, sortofsoftware, but I've remained in touch with Jarad andend of Logan and I think Logan's doing some some really great stuff for the gosystem. So I I need to catch up on Isscripto criminives coruses. He builthe built an academy called WHO 's called the CP Academy, Crippe Opono,Cryptooconomic, primitive academy and he's been running it for the pastcouple of weeks on trying to build things that herself contained. So, likeyou know, it's normal back and forth like two party social scenarios thatcould be in casulated into a smart contract that then build a primitivewhich can be built on to build larger systems. Now toasting con was kind of aincentive mechanism for doing bounties, but the fact that it wasn't built onGidcoin means that it's arbitrary, arbitrary on how that gets resolved. So the buildingon toppe in Ivcngoheadcon is that, like you know, technically, not actually married to open sourcesoftware fromo from a processed tandpoint mean hat the process. Your frontiering that uses open sourceplatforms isn't necessarily confined to just open soure platforms for asolution. Bounties, you know what I mean or anybounty in general. This does sound like seem like a reallygood way to get things off the ground, but it can be genericized. I feel Um. Ihaven't given any thoughts o that can you expand on that? I don't understandwhat you'e SOM Lyou o Ba suppost, O bounty andsomebody fulfils it, and you only gotto smit proof of that. There's a lot ofthings in this world which would accommodate that particular need Um,and you know I I feel like, especially withan accestation plus Um arbitration, pasystem Um. You know thiscant aply to a lot of different H scenarios, although my brain isescaping one of them right now, maybe finding a particular autopart or Um. I don't know a lot of maybe service webservices buil. You know moving my domain from one place to another andsigning me up for Gemail, because I don't know how to do it Um. I feel,like that's kind of more eneric version of what you're actually implementingand it seems like you can do a lot of different different, different othertypes of bounty type systems b with the same pobase. That gipoint wouldtheoretically, in my mind, runof yeah. So I think that's a really ascuteobservation and um in so basically part of our vision withwith bouncies network which, like I said, built standard gaunancies whichwere built upon is that h? Is that there's a real separation between theprotocol, Laer primitives and tools that are being built from theindividual, vergocal vertical markets that are built on top of Shanderbounties? Now it makes sense to start with Fountis for open sore software,because...

...open source software Gul bersor a goingto be knowledgeable bout, a blockchain BG and a care enough about etherium, toinstall metamask on thei browser and to get a little bit of Etir, and younotice the reality of twenty eighteen is that things are pretty early rightnow, but we definitely see translation, douncy networks and design dounties andquestion and answer bounties on standard bounties being built off ofthe exact same tool said that gt cin is bilt on top of, and it doesn't makesense for get Clin to pursue those markets. I think that bounces network and Standard Bounties should bespinning up those those individual networks, 'cause they're, reallydifferentcommunities with different concerns, and you know, maybe you know get coin as really heavilycoupled with GITHUB. Maybe the question's bounty platform will bereally heavily coupled with stock overflow or something like that. They O a lot of opportunity there, butit's outside of the SCO Bo of Gitcueen. I think whos ust share you just aredYor screen o gave a nice kind of a a mental map of where, where GidcoinBrasul like sits within the O, I the standard, bounties th framework and hop Wen we're going to nclude that Nondescription and I think, l e things like Sinse, is already employed to try and answerthings like questions about isand things like that nd. I think it'simportant to kind of like depreciate what problems oure solving versus thetypes of UH. I don't know if theyre two two set ed marceplace or like in insidemarketplaces of people who I need this yhit done. Who wants to do it I'll payyou to do it, which is the like? The general framework of what we're talkingabout right, yeah, I think so, sort of like Gig economyeats blockchain, and hopefully you know it's it's a Gig economy that empowersboth sides of the market. I think one of the problems with GIG economy in theligacy world is there's, there's some predatory stuff.I think that that's going on in gag economies, but you know that's probablythe subject of a whole. Another conversation abround allright. Well,then well, the Weres, where does like block chain fit right? I this is themarriage of these things. Why does blockchand make it better? Yes, and Ithink that that's an excellent question in I definitely got like a lot ofskeptical vcs when I was originally fishing get coin. Thinking like W, youcu just build this in the FIA. HTHE OT network ends Um, and I think it it'sdefinitely true, but I mean there's that Wangreti quote that that is t goto something like yea should skate to where the puck is going right, and ifwe believe that we're building a decentralized open financial system,then then you should. You should build for the future and not for for thelegacy one, and that was like my abstract answer and I don't think itwas very convincing to the to like B cs and people when I was pitching ninemonths ago, but here's the real answer. It was like the exciting, like actualpragmatic answer, there's actually funding for open sort, software andBotchin chasing two fue developers in the blackCHANIGA system that doesn't exist in in legacy open sorte like like it's theopen source, like you know, traditional open source, you're, there's not enoughdollars, casing too many developers, and so I think that that's the realpunctuated Eglibrium upon which which get Quinton exists in the reason whyour average Orly rate on the platform is between twenty five and seventydollars per hour. Like legitimate legimate funding, cruban source, I meanit's a little farther than that. For me personally, I mean w your payment mechanism B, you're notgoing to run your own, like PCI, compliant payment system. If you don'thave to so you'd, go through something like a pallors stripe, those ad centralpoints of of control in favor or your over your platform and when you'reworking with open source, you really don't want to introduce too muchinfluence from outside parties. Just to me seems like also there's a politicalmotivation here as well, and that I can oucan facility transactions withoutrelying on Papo. You Ri SAP, transactually Ao, relying on the Bankof the credit cards, and you don't have to deal with those payment mechanismsthat could possibly ainfluence over what should be an open and completelyfree, Um software environment. I worry about. I worry about like platforms like say this say this takesoff Um. This becomes the standard of how people contribute to oer source projects, soon and so forth, and I found this cool bug or bounty I solve it. I submit itand they're like hey thanks for the answer: Go Fuck Off OFM, not paying you. How does that stop h? Had it like howyhow you stop that type of thing? Wellyou, don't he said it earlier. DoTha to arbitration. RTRETDISM has to come into play like at what point doesthat become necessary right now we have a community of people where that that'snot that big of a deal like the the the...

...ideology of people trying to solve thebounties on g on Goodcoin is probably aligned enough and that they're goingtopay out when a bug is salved in in in the eventual future. That will nolonger be the case. When does the arbitration networkbecome necessary? Yeah an I think that ASE scale you know our our Tightni littlecommunity is, is going to have to scale and social larms are going to change,but- and I think t we're looking at doing the arbitration network in thenext couple of quarters at got Clyn, but it is. It does feel great to have stumbledupon this community, where? U, where the ethos is very forward, looking andand Um Andso, it hasn't been much of a problem.This far, although I will say that, like software, software development isinherently iterative, especially in the Twenty First Censur in the TwentyFirsth Century, with Agil and everything like there's a real problemwith progressive disclosure, I think in software development, both at Aceltimsjobs that I work tefork also on Git coin, so I mean you say that you want x,but then you see a solution that meets technically answer the scope at and andyou're like, oh well, you know I didn't think of this before, but wouldn't itbe cool if y existed in their yeahyou n Athat's, there's nothingwrong with that. That's just how software devolment is and so part ofwhat we've been doing as a platform. Just to like coach people from a UXstandpoint is a hay like you're, going to post this bounty for x and you'regoing to put let's call a hundred die on it. You should have thirty five diein reserve for e. If this person does a bad ask job,they they're really fast. If they do it really well, you should maybe send thema little bit extra on top or if there's progressive disclosure of the scope,then you can agree to like hey sorry, tniis wasn't this goat before, but canI just have it and I'll I'll give you like x, amount more of of Dya and wefound it just like treating other humans like humans on the on theplatform has has gone along way in preventing those kind of disputes thatthat aren't like bad actors, but are just miscommunications that can occurand software development, so I'm actually going to lend something elseto this. That's kind o unrelated to decentralization but or REA tratingpost platform for a particular videogame. Just 'cause I'Mpassion Amoutthis game, and when I first started the platform there were scams all over theplace. I wer people like trannit the thing that solved it is I built acarmen system where people who FAFIL trates and people whopost trades can mutually give each other Caro and what that built was apoint economy where people became more trustworthy within t e, the ecosystemitself, and I thought that would prevent people from starting to breakin to the actual economy. What a wout up doing is is having the oppositeeffect. It made people reach out and actually communicate in and buildbonding trust with people who had already established themselves in thecommunity, which grew the community itself exponentially. I went from likea thousand users to ten to ten thousand users and- and I feel like we often viewpeople with a very cynical sense because on the Internet, especially, Idon't think this is historically the way. We'e viewed a lot of books D andwe hade this moral, Econo vatencs. The way things were, but we've Kindo lostthat moral economy, because the Internet is completely anonymous nowwith th sentalization and these these the Bachein in identities being tied toparticular things like you said before your git hub user is kind of youridentity right. You don'twant to tarnish your identity, because thennobody will want to work with you yell. You can actually build systems which build credibility for yourself and giveyou incentivization to continue your work, because you can actually pot foodon the taple. I feel like those two things married together, you're goingto see literally only the most sociopatthic anti social people M,exploiting it and those people will be rooted out and not welcome and theywill build a terrible recutation of themselves and then they can't eat nickey case reade. A really. I don'tknow if you guys, Hade played with any of the Niky cases like interactiveflash style games, his laghtest one o truth is fantastic. Yeah, the Avolutionof truth N, like actually t o th of the score screen from that that game uplike his like freebig takeways, from the evolution of trust, which is whichis a game in which you can you can gain out how different participants in anetwork can evolve towards trust or distrust and bisically. The free thingslike the free, like three parameters that you want todesign into your network, is a repeat: interactions, keep a relationship goingand and health trust of all possible wiwins,besides R puniable wiwinds, between...

...people in the network, as opposed tolike a zero some game, and then the third is low miscommunication. So ifthere's too much miscommunication, then trust breaks down and Um if there'sonly a little bit of miscommunication than building in forgivingness intoyour platform is important. So, like that example of progressive disclosureI gave earlier, I think is ta example of that, and so it's up to us as peoplew Ho are designing these these networks to to keep these. These considerationsin mind, like the really exciting thing for me, is that I don't know if you all know aboutDunbar's number, but it's this proposed cognitive limit, where you can onlyinteract, only interacts healthily with up two onhundred and fifty people in at a time like you only maintainrelationships with that many people. I think that fiting for me is scalingoutside of my local community building protocols that allow pedicipants tointeract in scale pastdone by ous number as humanity 'cause. I just thinkthat, if we're going to build programwile money, if we're going tobuid this like ecosystem that where, where money is a core protocole of theInternet, then incentives become a corporated olf the Internet, and weshould program our values into our money and we should scale community as opposed to as opposed to in inaother direction, and so that's on e things that really keeps m excitedabout working a GID clim. I eally love that I'm going to steal that an Iwerealsothey're, also heating, we're also keeping like the evolution of trust.Well put that in description as well, just 'cause. It's it's something that Ithink all everyone should look at in this commader, I'm gladle Gott Goratinto it, because Scott who's, the guy who set up this interview, is like theywant to talk about technology n, like the program going in like a thougt beard like Teddak Teddax HalkDirection. The thing is with deseption the thing that attractsd me this spaceis that the two are not inseparate an have ideology behind what we'rebuilding in this particular space, and that's that's attractive to me speaking about the Alg Talkd to meabout. What's it called codefund little more, Oh yeah, so so, basically, GITCON'smission is to grow opensore software and the the platform that we've talkedabout for ninety percent of this conversation is is Gicondauntis and Ithink that bounties are great but they're only one tool, ind the toolbeltand there's that old computer science flichet that if the only tool you haveand your two box is a hammer, then every problem is going to look like anail ha golden hammer. I've I've wrote about that e H. M Anbois are great, butthey're they're a hammer, and you know what, if you have a problem thatrequires a electric screwdriver, so basically, Um Codefund is a complimentary product toGetcoin that also supports open sorce software, but with a completelydifferent way of doing it, and what it is is it's an ethical advertisingframework for software developers Um B. Basically, the way it works is thatif, if you have a repo with a bunch of stars and and you're starting to go down theburnout cycle, then you can place an ad on your repo and get paid likemonitizes your audience now, not stell out your audience, ECAUSE! It's ethicaladvertising and your only displaying ads for other other softwaredevelopment platforms on on your repo, but basically it's to way to solve theburnout cycle with with open source in that bygetting actual funding for yourpresence in open, sorce software, and so it's it's basically an ad natworkthat allows you to decouple your income from the work that you're the work thatyou're doing, whereas opposed to bounties, is Rin on get paid up for thescope. This go thi. You do so sort of excited about building upthis little. This, like toolboks of tools that are menhealt ANCIS, is just one componient of that. Sorry, I had to Turmi Mike off for asecond yeah I mean: Can you can you kind of go into a little bit too Um? Why bounties is is the hammer problem?I don't quite see that I mean I see. I see, selling Um ad space to human attention, like yousee O stars n under goodobereboforisance that that brings alot of attention people ar like. Oh this, I legitimate, then, if you cansell that as ad as adspace for people who would also like to push theirmessage out, that's reasonable, but why is the bounty's a Hammeran nail problem? Well, I just think that so so,basically, I think that there's a contributor lifecycle in open sourcesoftware- and it goes from being a perspective contributor to an open,sorce repo to actually becoming a contributor to becoming a maintainer ofthat open source repo. U and that's the happy pats, but the problem is thatthere's there's failure paths along the...

...along the the open source lice cycle right nowlike if you're a contributor, maybe you lose interests in the projects and youmove onto othic stuff, like your your corporate job is what PA bills maybemove onto that M. I think that with Um with being a maintainer there's aparticular problem with burnout. So basically, if you have Um, you know if, if you, you start off youropen source repo on a high and you're starting to get like fifty stars andpeople are really into it and you're, just like energized by the attention.But then when it gets up to five hundred stars, it becomes more of aburden and people are like Y. Aren't Ou merging my por question: Do you knowthat your shit doesn't work on o? Okay? I get thus now so basically like Gitcoin's, reallygood at accelerating the past for a perspective contributor to become acontributor, and it's really good at preventing me from losing interests,because you're getting paid for working on that Um and I think tha code fundsis- is really good at keeping people from getting burnt out witer maintainer,because they're actually getting paid for their presents and for their workand open source software, and so I don't mean to say that, like maybemaybe Bouantes isn't, the hammer like maybe bounties is like a crowbar orsomething like that. I don't know. ' I'm just saying that it's only one toolon Mito there's multiple ways to solve the incentive and micycle problems inopen force and that our mission is t is to is to build crutoeconomic forcesthat accelerate the happy path of an LS life cycle and decelerate the unhappypath like the Bernout, pat te cents. Yes, definitely so, let's get back to some oe othertocpicals. Here you were going to finish up your talk on some of thearchitecture, discussion, Um. Let's, let's is your entire application o hecentralized Um, you know wh where, where, where youPonto Centralization, why did you choose those points and Um, you know:Do you plan omidigating any of those in the future like what? What are yourthoughts or how's things built down? Put Your Thoughyeah, so Um Standardbountees, which is like sort of like the beating harder of the system, istotally desentralized on Ethera network and H, and we use a theory of smart contracts in IPFs for for thatextensively and were really really happy to say that the heart of ourapplication is deentialized, be Um. We do have like an issue with queriability of cormation on spar contracts, and so for that information we work forthat. Just all that problem, we mirror a lot of that information tooppostprestatibate, which basically allows us to just very quickly querywithout having to reach Optoinfura or a Web. Three R pc, like give me allBoun pes in the last ninety days, Tho have the KYWOR python in them. You knowit's just like it's. It's it's cheaper to do that in a relational databasethan to have to go out to the t, the web free network, an in order to dothat. Th there's like parts of that that are aime to increase these arexperience that are sensralized, but because they're, not the heart of thesystem. Then I'm not super conernd about that thats, like one category ofcentralization, the second category that I'll mention is that Shander Dountis was developed abouttwelve months ago and since then, our our conception of what needs to be inthe application, as ive sort of changed a little bit and Um. There's areas thatthe standard don't really match what we need to do in practice for an optimaluser experience. For example, when we first launchd Gitcoin, there was aproblem where multiple people would start working on a bouty at the sametime and they both submit a porequest and tmhey'd, be like Osha, somonoraestalled this problem. So it's like all manage wasted my time gright here,so we built in this feature called start work, which is which is notsubmitting it'. It's not a testing that you've finish the work. It's justsending a signal to everyone else that this bounty has already been started.supleased all work on noomy at workovertop of me and that's all justin our postgress database. It it solves a valid UX problem to be able to signalthat you starte work on it, but it's not part of the fat photopall and the Ma Standardgante's framework, so we'relooking to solve that with standard Bountis Topono, which just got acceptedas an eakey in the last week or two and H, and you can expect it within thenext six to nine months little things like that will be built into theprotocol as opposed to just being built in gipling. That's really cool! I think that's agreat way to kind of sort of wrap this up. Is there any questions that Um you wish? We would have asked you thatwe didn't get around to...

...yeah. I mean I. I think that so so, anythinks for asking Ahaut andlike the question that I always like to ask himselt, is what kind of world dowe want to live in, and I think that one of the things that Unites People incrypto right now is decentralization and that's a very abstract, abstractanswer. So when, if I was going to answer her that question for myself mthe thing that like tangibly, I care a lot about is creating realand uservalue and rading Um crits for for users in the in acrossthe world, using Blochan, foractual, Ral, world use cases and so Um. Youknow, I think t we've covered a lot of that we' sort of like this cost a lotof that in eur interview. But I would just challenge your listeners to so to look past what exists now and think about the broader vision of of aopen FORC financial system and how it's going to be different from the wholefinancial system and to build the world that they want to live in cause. Ithink that that's that's! What's going to power us as we enter the middle ofthe twenty first century, all right, I have a I have. I have another. I wantto challenge you on that a little bit. I don't like the idea of thesecentralization for the for the idea of thestidation, I the point of doing itis not to be centralized. What of doing it is to is something else right? It's like! Idon't like doing something just to do it. Why I redicentralization? What'sthe whole point like what are we trying to d centralize? If you don't, if youdon't specify the reasoning for deccvisation you're, doing it just fordecentralization's sake, it's not good enough. So what's the point like wh,why do we care what Wer? What are we trying to mitigate or get rid of yeah?I mean I think, that what I was trying to say when I asked that question to myself anthen answered it was that I think that we need to build a world that we wantto live in, and I think that ell, I don't know how Lin people are onthe house consensus on what kind of world we all want to live in Um. Whatthat looks like, but I think that less less rent seeking intermediariesis is something that people agree with in the abstracts. I think providing providing bladbrige to individualpeticipants in the in the network is a really important thing and for me, whatthat looks like is the networks opology's more of a pure to peernetwork te Gomehnetwork and not more of it, topped down a topdown at work INS, and that allowsa los a lot of interesting things to to Sooto sort of CO volve. But I don'tknow it's a conversation and I don't have all the answers. Like I mean allthink about Y, you sed meh network, so you're talking about like a Internet ofglochains rather than Youbri. I know you'd bring this up. Ilove this question because I'm still a one world watching Cap- I really am- Ireall, believe th t thewere Gon, east of all the gravitae towards thestandard of value like, and I keep calling it aunitized measure of value. None of the things I bring up a lot and we're goingto bring it up in this. This other kind of Um trial, type podcast were doingand m article. I just wrote, which is basically the transcript of a rancethat I did is. Ah is you know we have leaders, we havecentimeters, we have owns, we have volts, we have Celsius M, we haveKelven. We have all these like unitized measures of reality, any greatly scalled our ability to interoperate with each other as asociety, and it's it's greatly improved of the way that we all communicate ourmeasurement of that reality. And yet the one thing we don't have that we useliterally every day in any sort of unitized standardized measurement. IsValue? U and I feel like a one world block chained solution where everythere'll be other blockhings, but they will have to kind of adhere to thisthin protocol of what is value on how things kind of exchange in hisvery baseer. It is almost necessary to scal society to post scarcity levels.You know- and I believe, the goal for me with desentralization and everythingelse n in everything we do as human beings our entire goal as thecivilization needs to be focusing on achieving the goal ofpostscarcity society yeah. I think th T I I like it's sort of interesting tosayarticulated that way, because I think that in a way we're sort of asking whatdoes this because system look like as...

...it evolves and a hopefully a majorplayer on the world stage and youalready sort started. You alreadysort of see it Cain. Ave all thethis store value, ease case where Um onengin you can exchange into bing the COOIN OFFO dickclinted eath, I think,is increasingly playing a player plain, a roll there. So you know as Murhas evolved then.Obviously, there's consolidation and you saw that with the mobile phonespace, where now it's it's ten years in and it's only is nd android. I'mhopeful that in the future will seem less less like random chane that peoplehave to pay attention to and you'll be able to to just pay attention to theprominent ones. Do you have an opinion on which chain is going to help usachieve os scarcity on probably none of them at the moment? And I like Itherium,don't get me wrong, but it's nowhere near wher. It needs to be Um for thatkind of that kind of usecase. I mean what I'm really looking for is. This islike the first step, George Puscay, and I don't think like the chain itself- isthe solution to post scarcity society, but it is an essential component. It isthe first major leap that man will need in order to better utilize, a moreefficiently exchange assets globally, and you know one of the one of theissues that we have is is is just knowing how much something is worth isdifficult. It's pretty much a shipshow and- and I feel like Um, you know justhaving their kind of data knowing where things are, who ows them, how we canacquire them where thee, what what the actual demand is and reach kind of aneconomic equalibrium between supply and demand is going to be an essential partof reaching postcarity society, because there's a lot of other leages wll needonly to improve manufacturing processes. Wen Yo, to improve gloval, upply ChaWel need to IMP. Recycling processes will need to improve energydistribution willneed to implude communication Ta. All these aspects ofsociety that deeds, significant improvement and the only thing that ismissing that enables us to start building that infrastructure is asingle source of truth that defines what value is and how values, exchangeand assets are stored and reporded and transported, and you know, andownership is determined a I'm from Jupier there's, not there'snot h, there's not been a single episode. herecalling has not tanged itoff into the future of what could be so. I would love to keep tangenting offthat an p going if you want to keep going with Im. So I I've. U, I have a computer sciencebackgrounds and I like things that are tangible and andar Um. You know like explicit, beform and Um one of the fun things aboutsitting around with my blockchain friends after after a MEETU itwastalking about the future of what could be because I it's like dreaming of of a BetterSociety together and UH, and so I've I've been I've learned to sort ofescape from my programmer Rutson to go into a little bit more of those Dreamiideas and part of that has been reading Eric posiners radical markets, which isa book that Ah Weanjack that book. That book is Great.It is pin the second chapter, but just learning about the idea of introducingmarkets into areas of life where they haven't existed already and UH. I can't even like articulate any ofhise ideas at this point, but but basicall Tey, just like you're able toto increase economic value by getting more people voice in by putting priceson Ossets that don't have prices now. There's there's some lical ideas in thabook, absolutely yeah. No W. We mentionedthat book a few times on show already Coris, actually the on to turn me ontoit. While we're at con son six to Thousad and eighteen, I immediatelywent out and got it and it's a fantastic book I'm going to have toreread it 'cause it I it has so much in there and, unfortunately, the Audioboopersion, which I don't think did it quite justice. But itwasit was enoughto get me super excited and I love that book. I've also been reading a lot moreon. You know just old school economic guys and I'm not even like proeconomist.I think a lot. What they do is outcoming but um the e, the ideas thatthey started and t a the things that they they're actually able to start tocome forition ow, because a lot of them like Um iagan, an Milton Freedman,spoke extensively on the ideal currency, and that was impossible back in the day,and now it is, and I'm really excited to see how we actually responsibly usethose ideal, currencies or bilds the ideal currency Um, because we had nothad that ability in the past. I think it's going to cilitate a lot of therthings that radical markets discusses and positors books. It's it's reallygreat. I'm really excited, I think,...

...venth, the ter currency is a bad term.If you want to try start talking about ideal currency, it's more like a the thing we're looking at is ageneralization of what currency is yes, it' it it's it's just generalized valueof exchange, whatever value means to certain people and Um. Creating that, I think, is whatcryptocurrencies are trying to do or block chain in general block Chan witha good consensus mechanism is trying to do is generalize. The idea of valueexchange an once you go there, you can then do all kinds of certain things ona human to human level, and what we've seen up to date is a is a reframing of what we already know.Using the new tools we've created through blockchain and W, it'swe'reonly now sort of a kind of a experiment with new ways of doingthings through this generalized source of Iev Change. U We'reall we're onlyevaluating them through the lins of what we all already know like financialmodeling Shit like that, and that's not that's not good enough, and I thinkit's going to be well until we get to the point where we can come up with heways of valuating these things and that's the thing that like reallyexcites me about the space is, that is that there's going to be so many new placesthat exchange of value are going to happen, and I think th, like the Analegy that Imake in this case, is that the Internet changed our lives, because it's theability for computers to write information across the Netford right,yes and Um. What watching does is allows you to wrap value or scarcityacross the network, rigte with ownership with ownership, yeah nd, andso like. I, it was't actuded to the recordingindustry. I think it's possible that that watching could, due to thefinancial services, industry and H, change the way change to value withelike. The number one analogy that I like t when talking about what you guysare talking about Wii I perceive all these new eusecases is that before theInternet, you would never send a person a piece of snailmal like if you have a CCOWORKER, it's likethree dubical ie ou, never send to a piece of Snai Mail. It's like hey! Whatdo you want to get for lunch today right, but how many people have spetthat email, probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions, it isbecause it's cheap in its instant, so it enenables all these use cases forexchange of information that didn't exist before so. What's the parallelwith this new financial network that we're building where you've beenexchanged, micro amounts of value, just like very casually that you couldn'tbecause of the old ole financial system, was too ENSI and too slow? That's agood analogy, I think, for kind of a a visualizing. What we're talking aboutlike what w? What couldn't you do earlier? That's like just commonplacetoday, the HARKHARDOF. This is in Ninetden andninety three who would have who would have come on a pot Orin iight wel on aradio you're going to be able to mail yourcoworker and ask them what they want to get for lunch like you sound like acrack pite, if you said that in nineteen ninety three with the existingcardimes and and everything, and so in twenty eighteen train to project twentyyears in the future, how are people are going to exchange value over thisInternet of value is? Is is equally hardcomin coming full circle here, likewe need to find ways to. I gesthe only reason why we act. The way we do in theworld of the Internet is because of the applications that are built on theInternet and how they're built right, and so when you talk about buildingthings on the internet or on block chains, you have to then talkabout how you build the applications on soff. I guess talk about whosebuildings I applications and WHO's INSENTIVIZING building of theseapplications and like how you interact with likethis has been a a key concept that I've been trying to build upt for a longtime. The infrastructure lays way to how you build applications on top ofthat infrastructure, which then lays way into how people interact with eachother based on using those applications, and you need a good methodology of ways to build applications, and I think previous ways of instivizing people todo applications encourage this. What are you offering me as a as a company as opposed to? Whatdo you offer me as a individual, which S is downside too? So you brought upthe NAPTER Aknoledgyg, which I think is interesting, especially to me 'cause. Iactually worked in. I try to start a company. I I ore one it for four yearsI had a piece of an our I developd, which it video tingerprinting extremelyefficiently. Basically, is my own content ID system for Li e? U Tue andstuff Tunso. I got really deep into e the whole perceptoal hashing, fuzzy,hashing kind of side of things which you know really lent itself well tothis decentralized. You know the the whole Um. You know cryptic currencyspase. U...

You know, copyright is a is a problemfor artists, and you see people like Imag and heaptry to leverage blockchain to brink out the company and go no one to one tocompensate people who are providing you, entertainment and the reason you can do.That is because you can kind of tract these assets and how they're being usedand stuff like that Um. I feel like H, you know yeawe're still early and no,it's not viable at the moment, but Um being able to inbuild new types ofincentive, botles surrounding creation, just intellectual property Um. Bypassing the need for the patent system by passing e need to register acopyright Whanh. You really don't have to do anyway. Um, you know all thesethings, this notary system, that is the block chain Um, enables people to sortof have rights that they have lost as a result of free information exchange,but still ettain the value of free information exchange and that they canjust really exchange information if they so desire. So I think it's I thinkit's just Fascinating Tho. The way the world is going to change in the nexttwenty years, I believe, is Goin to be g more drastic than the way the worldchange in the twenty years. After the advent of like things like prodigy andcockey Serb Um, it's just it's just it's we're justthat we're just just beginning and it's rapidly growing faster than any ofthese tecnologies did either. I, like your example of music industry,because you know H in history. has there been a more centralized draty ING, no people who are trying to innovate there?I J wish the God speed, because I think that you know there's the wholestarving artist, musician, moving to New York, kind of thing d and thenthere's the the fiances of the world anein between that there's there's awhole lot of of value, that's being created. Is it recognized it and woevercan crack Ana an wile to build their own audiences, retain ownership overthe good that they're creating for the world or maybe not ownership ut,astakein least that's really exciting Appli to anycreative pursuit to be you're a painter. You don't want your! What's that ing there you go m. You know: you're apainter, you're you're, a musician you're, a video producer like all ofthese things or ano ot, but their subject. I censorship. If there's asingle point, like you too, having issues with that right now you could beld ensenseof Bos. It alldepend on a sentralized organization. You could be ill at the market to sidewhat the market it wants, hat as a downside of meeking people like AlexJones a little more vible, but you know it also makes actual artists in peopleproducing things. Notin know having their message compromised by anindustry, that's driven by marketability and market forces allright at the cost of. As much as I love to Wax Poetic about this indefinitely,I'm goingto have to cut a short hair and and wrap this up. So if you enjoy this conversation listeners, please click the like Plik.This subscribe tol, your friends give his feed back on t itter Cavin. How canpeople reach out to you and Getcoin and yourself yge ceens at Gicoindako, soczekosout there? I am at Iwaki on twitter, which is Owo CI, and I love todebate stuff like this on twitter. So send me a weekand and Oha e, absolutelywe'd love to have you and I look forward to kind of seeing how Git cingrows to help insedovise a good quality open source develoment.So thanks for creating good coit, O men, Li tr.

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