Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 19 · 4 years ago

Hashing It Out #19: Gitcoin - Kevin Owocki

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We talk with Kevin Owocki, co-founder of Gitcoin. No joke, this episode is compelling. Gitcoin is a decentralized application which incentives open source contributors with bounties for bugs and features. Kevin tells us about the creation of Gitcoin, how their incentive models work, their architecture, and their alternate funding mechanism for open source projects, CodeFund. We then take a trip to Jupiter and dream of the future of decentralization, theorycrafting what that world will look like and what we need to build to get there. Exciting topics!

Now entering work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology and the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Okay, episode nineteen hashing it out. Today we're here with Kevin Olwaukee from kitcoin. I co founder of Kitcoin, which will dive into quite deeply. I'm not excited about this one because I've watched it for a myriad of reasons. But today, as always, I'm here with my Trustee Co host, Colin Crouche. Say Hello, Colin Loow, Goin. All righty, Kevin, why don't you start out by giving us a quick, quick introduction of like how you get introduced to the space in general and what Geitcoin is and how you got involved? Yeah, thanks so much for having me on the show. Callin and Corey. I have been invest staying in the in the crypto space since for about six or seven years now, and I have been building for the last two or three years. I was initially introduced to the space by Piper Marium, who's now the etherium foundation and is in charge of a lot of their python stuff, recently released trinity. So him and I go way back and he got me into the space back in two thousand and fourteen round when etherium was doing their ICO, and since then I've just been sort of experimenting with building things in the in the space. I agree in computer clients and I built by exide projects off of blockchain based technology before I came to get coin, and it's just a process of learning the technology, trying and stuff, failing at it and iterating until I got to something that's meaningful and pretty excited to be working on get coin and be working with some people in the space fun pushing these centralization and smart contracts forward. So why don't we? Why don't we start with bird's eye view of what kickcoin is like? What problem does it solve and why does blockchain help it solve it? Yeah, so get coin is a network of developers that are looking to do bounties on open source software and so the the idea is that you, as a funder, can take any GITHUB issue, any feature or bug or security thing that you don't want to do and then you can put atherium or you're bout on it and that gets paid out when the when the work is completed, and so it's a way of it's kind of like Gig economy meets the blockchain open source space and our mission is to grow open source software. We think that there's a real problem where open source software crates billions of dollars of year a year in economic value but there's no value capture for the developers, and so part of the idea here is to give developers some of some ability to monetize their work and open source software, and they're already doing things that they love and meeting New People and building new skills. They should get paid for the economic value that they're delivering. So that's the core product that we shipped with in November of last year and you've done about two hundred thousand bounties on the platform thus far and we're just getting started. So pretty excited to be supporting the etherium, theorium foundations, repose, Meta Mask truffle some of the best projects in the space with bounty. Cool. So I noticed that you aren't using a native token to incentivise people. You're going straight to atherium and people are being syntipized directly with etherium. Yet you get hub name is get coin ICEO. So I think at one point you were considering it's I would like to know what the decision process behind that was, what led there, and what the results of just going straight to to thereum are, and how did that evolution occur internally? And you know, yeah, how I you know. How's the results of that? Yes, so, man, the the marketing lead a consensus. Would have cajoled me to mention that Geitcoin is not as like, but I forgot to do it. The GITHUB name is actually getcoin co which is supposed to be short for Getcoin core, but now that I realize people are reading it as gets Getcoin, I seo. Boops, I did read that. Sorry, I'm wrong. It's Gatecoin go and I keep Cooin, I seo. So I mean, I don't know. I think the Getcoin is kind of as a name is sort of beach front real estate in in space,...

...because it's get. Yeah, decent version control and it's one character off from bitcoin. But you know, I think it's giving people the wrong impression that we have a token, and you know, within reason, because ninety percent of projects in the space have it's token. It's actually just launched a page, a marketing page, called Getcoin DOTCO. So let's not OK and it's sort of explains our philosophy here. Basically a we're in a position of privilege to be funded by consensus and Joe Luban, who has given us a very long runway to do stuff that's good for the space and isn't super weird about revenue or monestization right now. But in the long term when we do monetize, we think cocation is perhaps not the right model for what we're doing at getcoin. I think that open source software developers are you know, there's there's we're well, so we're in a little bit of token backlash right now. We're recording this interview in August of two thousand and eighteen. It's a bear market and we've been through the ICO boom and boss stiment. You know, there's there's token backlash among some of the sophisticated Industris in the space and you know, I think that software developers are some of the more sophisticated consumers in this space. But, but, but, more apt, more like. Generally, I don't think that for bounties, that tokenization is the right model for what we're trying to do. A lot of our friends that have done okanization have have have had to deal with two different customers, two different audiences, the speculators in telegram that just want to see a return on their investment and then their actual users, and so we've been able to just focus on our users and a chewing product market fit and we're going to figure out other monetization streams down the line. I mean, I think we might take a cut of every bouncy on the platform. That's one thing that we've talked about. I'm on the Working Group for e EIP One, three, three seven, which is subscriptions on the Blockchain, and I think that there's very possibly a subscription type model where you pay twenty five die a month or twenty five dollars a month and you get unlimited use of features on the platform or something like that. So I think that the long story short is that we don't think that. We think that we're building a world financial computer in the etherium space right in. Tokenization is just the first business model that has come along and I think that we'll see many, many other business models come along, and so we're kind of taking the long view and waiting to see what developed. Or one position. Yeah, that makes sense. I actually see taking your cut is being more of an issue than just unlocking features. Personally, and then I don't have the market research to back this up. You guys do, but my take on it is if you do, if you take a cut, somebody will build a system where they don't take a cut. You know, there's already transaction fe's built into a lot of a lot of this. You just basically adding your own kind of transaction fee and you're not even really technically doing anything to maintain the system. The stuff you're maintaining in the value you add is in the additional features and the continued development and that kind of thing. And maybe even a one off payment to unlock a feature would be something cool like. Hey, you know, like in a lot of gaming models have this kind of thing where they're just like hey, if you want to unlock this this fancy new character, you got to pay five bucks. You know that kind of thing. So yeah, but this was moves some weight towards the idea of I guess decentralization of my opinion is that, like when everyone owns their own their own data or their own value, the value is in like when creating a business, you optimize for services, and so this type of this type of platform, I good coin is. It is a is a service platform. You're enabling people to your incentivising people or developers to fix issues for open source projects, which typically don't have ways of doing so. So if you enable that type of thing, you build a community around doing that exact, exact thing and for open source projects, they then flock to that to get that service which they don't want to spend time doing themselves. Yeah, and that's like, that's that's there's no token in that, there's no coin in that. So you have to then find a business model that supports the flow of money as opposed to the increasing value proposition of of a given token. Right fit says. I wouldn't call this a protocol and I think some, like some of these like scarcity protocols that are pitching up, may have some type of reason to have a token to then make their token valuation grow, but in this type of thing I don't that's not necessary. So there's no reason to have one. Yeah, yeah, and I think that you're absolutely right. I think that, like you know, a lot of the focus on people saying that there took utility token or a protocol token, in my opinion, is is just around sort of skirting this US regulation. They're just trying to get away, you,...

...around US regulation. I think that we want to have their key cake and eat it too. Like you say, you're doing a utility token and I I think that you want all the benefits of a security but with none of the diluted equity rays or or anything like that when you do a utility token. I CEO, and this is one of the core diffrenchiers that were building into eip one thousand hundred and thirty seven, the subscription model. So, like you think about a subscription model for a business like Netflix, for example, you pay nine hundred and ninety nine a month and as a consumer, I don't have to read some insane long white paper in order to make a purchase decision there. I don't have to understand the besting schedules of founders. I just pay ten bucks a month and I cancel if I don't like the service that I'm receiving and on the on the on the on the service side of things. I know that I have x consumers that are paying wide dollars per month and my true Z and then my conversion rate is look cause Z Z prime, and so I know what my cash flow is going to be twelve months out. So it's just a great way of aligning incentives between consumers and in service providers. And so I think that, you know, I'm really excited about exploring the subscriptions Route Forget coin, but I'm not exactly sure when. One of the reasons we're having this conversation out in the open is because we want our very community for focused organization and and I think that it makes sense to the community to help decide what the business model is going to be for get coin. And and, like I said, we're in a position of privilege that Joe Lubin is not pressuring us to monetize at all. He just wants to us to accelerate etherium's lead and and the impact in the ecosystem. And so you know, if I had raised a VC round and I did go like pitch on Sandhill Road for get coin, I'd be running out of money right now and I'd be going around talking about monostation with a bunch of vcs and, you know, just having a backward like Joe, who's who's letting us take the long view and figure this out very thoughtfully instead of with a real sense of urgency. Has Been has been super dope and it enables conversations like this where we can we can figure out what model is right for our community. Well, let's let's take a second and and I guess give the listener a perspective, because I think a good a good distribution of our pro our listenership. Because developers, so what, like how does get coin work? How do they use your system? Like how do they how do they make money using Giitcoin? Like can you? Can you walk us through the steps of like, Oh, I found a problem or a an issue or a bug within a specific copy source platform they had, they have enabled kitcoin within their platform. How do I get paid for solving that issue? Yeah, so, if this was a video podcast, I would just share my screen and give a demo, but unfortunately it's not, so I'll just sort of walk through the steps. So basically, the sort of like purchase intent or the backing is associated with when you're a software developer and you have some sort of feature or bug that you want turned around but you don't have the time or skills to turn it around. But you know you're a Niceo and you have some some ear c twenty tokens to spend, your some youth to spend. You Go to get coin, doc Co new and then you can paste in and get hub issue url. So we're very purposefully built on top of GITHUB. We think that there are great collaboration tool and we just want to be the incentivization layer on top of that. And so you take the get up issue URL, which contains this goat for the feature bug, and you paste it into get point. That post last new. It pre fills a bunch of information like the programming language is used, the title of the bug, the description of the feature, and then allows you to set some metadata and then, when you press submit, that issue and whatever, if you want to stake against it, is put on too smart contract called Standard Bounties, which is standard for bounties on the etherium blockchain and has been audited by consensus diligence and and and it's pretty fast and secure and we like it. A Lot. And basically that's that's the source of truth for for the bounties on the on the ecosystem and and once the transaction is confirmed, it's submitted, it's on Getcoin, it's on the getcoin issue explorer and it gets emailed out to our network of software developers that could work on it. So I think that, like you know, everything I described up until now it's just the mechanics of how it's done. But, like, the real value add is instantly marketing your open issues to eighty five hundred software developers across the world who want to work on blockchain stuff. So that's our real competitive advantage. Like that's the value of rule of Getcoin is not like all the mechanics that I just described, but the fact that you don't have to work with the recruiter to hire someone and pay that recruiter twenty percent of a first year salary and and then like bring someone on two months later after a bunch of interviewing. It's just instantly broadcast to everyone on the geitcoin network and then you work on a very small scope, hope you know, just like a like, let's call it, like a hundred die bounty together. It's like try before you buy, hiring for for open source and blockchain projects.

So you've tied yourself to the theorem network and that makes sense. Do you see a future where you will be supporting other coins, such as using atomic swaps for Bitcoin or something like that, or like coin or yeah, it's sorry, I mean to cut you off mid question and just so excited about the question that I so we're looking into using BTC relay to allow people to post bounties on get coin with bit with Bitcoin, which I just love saying. But one of the problems that we have with with Bitcoin is that right now getcoin doesn't hold access to any of your funds. We don't have your private keys when you post a bouncy and we don't have access to any of those funds. And so with bitcoin there's not as sophisticated of a smart contract layer that we can use for scrow of the funds, and so we're just trying to figure out how do we do that integration without get coin holding any access to the funds and without causing any of those issues. So I'd say it's a work in progress, but in the spirit of decentralization and open source and we can we can figure it out together. So, working in security, I have this kind of idea, especially within the blockchain space, of responsible disclosure or anonymous disclosure in some cases when I want to report a bug or someone finds a serious bug and wants to report it's say maybe a consensus breaking change within within bch. This happened recently. Someone wants to purport the type of thing but doesn't want the attribution to themselves because if it actually ends up happening before they get to fix it, then all the blame goes to them because they it's the only person they know this bug exists. What type of mechanisms exist within gitcoin that allow people to disclose some type of you know, breaking change anonymously? We'll also of getting paid. Yes, I mean I think that that's really important consideration for that use case. I actually, when I initially launched get coin, posted a security bouncy to the to the platform. That basically was just like a it was like an a loss bounty with and this is back when youth was like a hundred fifty bucks. I think it was for bucks for critical bug all the way down to like one. Sorry, it's I think for boxing and for youth for a critical bug. Okay, like that's really cheap, man. Yeah, it's in. This is before we're funded by consensus. It was all coming out of by personal but in so, like basically what happened in that scenario was that someone reached out to me privately over or our slack and was like, Hey, I found the critical bug with with your platform. Like someone can inject a script onto onto a bouncy if they put X Y Z and there get hub issue and so and they have the exact consideration that you mentioned, which is like, I don't you know, I don't particularly feel like I need to reveal who I am in order to tell you this, but you know, kind of still get paid and I was I guess sure, just there's two authentication layers on on getcoin. One is the etherium network and it's your theorium address, and the other is geth hub. So you can log into your Github user name and submit inhabit attached your github profile and I just I said to the person, I said just just submit your atherium address to this smart contract and I'll pay you out directly through the etherium address and you don't ever really have to reveal your github identity or anything about who you are. And so I paid that person out and I hit to get to this day, have no idea who they are, but you know, obviously they saved us from a great deal tassle of someone had exploded that in the wild. So I don't know if that's a I'm I don't have a real solid security backgrounds. I don't know if that's responsive disclosure to a tea, but that's what happened in that specific instance. And I think that get coin is very focused on being an insensitization layer, not being a collaboration layer at all. Like we're not going to rebuild chat, we're not going to rebuild get hub, and it's because those those tools work pretty well by themselves already, and so I think gets up to the up to the both sides of the market to communicate in along with those criteria however, however they want. And you know, that's how it worked for me. Whether or not are like marketing and communications represent that right now, I couldn't say. It's still kind of early days, but I think that's probably the best, best direction people could go in. Yeah, because you have I mean that you have to kind of different kinds of disclore disclosures when you talk about bounties. Right, one is going to be game breaking changes with the terms of security, like I found something that breaks your entire platform and then I had in like Oh,...

...we need a Ui fix for this various thing. We don't have the time to do it, we would like someone else that contribute and and what's and you also have two different kinds of people who would like to disclose these types of things. One is I want to get paid for telling someone that there's a problem in their system, versus me exploiting at myself and one person that's trying to build up their profile that says I fix problems, right. And so you have different public views of doing these types of things and then different kinds of things, and I think a platform that enables this type of situation accounts for those four different scenarios. Yeah, I love learning about all these individual use cases in software that I just never knew about before, and it's a reflection of foul vast the use cases for get coin can be that like you can do a small bug fix to a whole big feature, to security stuff in inside of our form, just the scope of knowledge work in software. So it is so broad and so making the prep the platform not only broad enough to handle all those use cases but deep enough on each of those individual use cases is is something that that I'm really trying to interport. So can you cove a little more about how you structured your smart contracts to actually facilitate these kind of bounties and how you can verify that the bug was fixed and like what's the actual process for, you know, completing this? Is it all through the smart cart through the smart contract? Is there a secondary layer to kind of solution built on top of it that will that enables just what is what is your platform look like from an architectural standpoint? Yeah, lots of ground to cover their I'm glad you asked it, especially since the audience is technical. So I will say that I am very lucky to be built upon standard bounties, which is the standard for bounties on etherium and it was written by a fellow named Mark Baion of the bounties network. We kind of see them the fall for what we're doing and we see get coin is just the application layer and it's because of that I have not written a single and your bounty and and so so I think that I'm very likely to just have that out of the box to build, to build get coin with my focus is on finding product market and on building something great for software developers, and his is on entered and evolved Roto Hall and making insecure. And so perfectly. There's a few steps to a bounty. One that you issue a Bouncy on get coin and that involves funding it and describing what you want done. The second, the second step is someone submits an attestation that they solved that scope, and that includes maybe geth, hub, PR URL and and and when, when the funder receives that at testation there they that that someone has turned around the bounty on the platform. Then they can either accept it or they can comment back to the user and say no, you didn't handle x, or hey, why don't you? Why don't you do why? And so there's like a typically a cycle or to of iteration where this back is met and both sides of the market are happy, and then after that they can click accept, and then at that point the funds get released to the bouncy hunter and hopefully everyone's happy. Now that's the happy path of the platform are becomes, you know, what happens when someone abandons the bounty or when when the hunter puts in a lot of work in the funder doesn't want to pay it out, and I think it like of those abuse cases. One of the problems that we have right now is with bounty abandonment. You know, since we're sort of a green field platform, you see people that will go on and will and we'll just say like hey, yeah, I'm going to work on this and then they don't do anything for the next like five or six days. Then there's an opportunity cost to the rest of the community there. So we started building in this little feature that they like pastors of them every couple days for an update they if they don't respond, then we remove them from the bounty and we and then we dig their Geit coin profile just to like what future funders know that this person didn't follow through when they said they were going to. So I think that there's sort of like a expectation setting part of the software that that we have to put in there to make sure that everyone's expectations are meant. But we are really lucky that get coin is built on top of GITHUB and no one wants to be a jerk in open source software. Your get help identity, for many intents and purposes, is your is your resume and is your open source portfolio. And so we've been really, really, really lucky that we have this ethos of the mission of growing open source and and because of that those social norms prevent...

...a lot of bad actors from from causing problems in the system. I do think that down the line we're going to be really well served by introducing arbitration into the platform. So the standard bounties contracts has a has a an addressed for an arbiter address we can which can basically decide in favor of the funder or the bounty hunter if there's a dispute. Now, right now, we set that to zero x zero, which is the null address in the platform. But in the future we're going to be bounties network is developing a network called staking network and it's basically an arbiters platform on on Atherium, and you'll basically like, I have a council of five arbiters that can be escalated to and three out of five have to decide in one direction in order to in order to in order to resolve a an arbitration, and so for that like point three percent of times in which there's really a major dispute, that will be our decentralized way of dealing with it. So I think you asked me a couple questions about like what is the architecture of get coin and all that kind of stuff, but all pause. Therefore, further comments and then I can tell you more about the architecture of good coin if you'd like sure. Actually, we had a guest on, Logan Brush, who had kind of an interesting approach to how to handle some bounties of his own. Is Deep going right? Yep, he's been. He's been doing crisp are, toasty coin and he's been doing an academy recently called the Crypto primitives academy, that which builds off of toasty coin and try to do other types of crypto economic primitives. You know, I was like at Devcon, I was at Devcomtree last year and I had this like funny like three hours spurt where like Jarrett announced status open bouncy up on stage a DEV on and then I was like eating lunch and then I met Logan who's like, Oh, I'm working on a bounty platform all, yeah, three hours fur. I meant like for people who are working on bounty platforms for open source software. But I've remained in touch with jared and and with Logan. I think logans doing some some really great stuff for the ecosystem. So I need to catch up on with his CRYPTO primitives courses. He built a he built an academy called a he's called the CP Academy, Cryptopronavi, Crypto Economic Primitive Academy, and he's been running it for the past couple weeks on trying to build things that are self contained. So, like you know, it's normal back and forth like two party social scenarios that could be encapsulated into a smart contract that then build a primitive which can be built onto build larger systems. Now, toasted coin was kind of a incentive mechanism for doing bounties, but the fact that it wasn't built on Gidcoin means that it's arbitrary. Arbitrary on how that gets resolved. So building on top of Gidcoin go ahead. Calling is that, like you know, technically you're not actually married to open source software from a from a process standpoint, I mean at the process you're frontiering that uses open source platforms isn't necessarily confined to just open source platforms for a solution bounties, you know what I mean, or any bounty in general. This does on like a seemed like a really good way to get things off the ground, but it can be genericized. I feel I've given any thoughts to that. Can you expand on that? I don't understand what design. Well, you post basic post a bounty and somebody fulfills it and you all you got to do some proof of that. There's a lot of things in this world which would accommodate that particular need and you know, I feel like, especially with that attestation plus arbitration system, you know, this can apply to a lot of different scenarios, although my brain is escaping one of them right now. Maybe finding a particular auto part or I don't know, a lot of maybe service, web service has just been built, you know, moving mind domain from one place to another, in signing me up for Gmail because I don't know how to do it. I feel like that's kind of more generic version of what you're actually implementing and it seems like you can do a lot of different, different, different other types of bounty type systems with the same codebase that get coined would theoretically, in my mind, run off. Yeah, so I think that's a really astute observation and in so basically part of our vision with bouncies network which, like I said, built standard bouncies which were built upon is that is that there's a real separation between the protocol layer primitives and tools that are being built from the individual verbial goal vertical markets that are built on top of standard bounties. Now makes sense to start with bounties for open source software, because open source software developers are a going to be knowledgeable, while...

...blockchain be going to care enough about etherium to install Meta mask on their browser and to get a little bit of ether. And you notice the reality of two thousand and eighteen is that things are pretty early right now. But we definitely see translation bounty networks and design bounties and question and answer bounties kind of for on standard bounties, being built off of the exact same tool set that get coin is built on top of, and it doesn't make sense for get coin to pursue those markets. I think that bounties network and Standard Bounties should be spinning up those, those individual networks, because they're really different. Could communities with different concerns. And you know, maybe you know get coin is really heavily coupled with GITHUB. Maybe the questions bounty platform will be really heavily coupled with stack overflow or something like that. We bought a lot of opportunity there, but it's outside of the scope of Getcoin. I think he just shared your you just shared your screen to give a nice a kind of a mental map of where we're getcoin result like sits within the OP The standard bounties framework, and I hope we can. We're going to include that in our description. And I think things like sent is already deployed to try and answer things like questions, bounties and things like that, and I think it's important to kind of like differentiate what problems you're solving verse as the types of I don't know, they're too two seted marketplace or you like inside of market places, of people who I need this shit done, who wants to do it, I'll pay you to do it. which is that like the general framework of what we're talking about right? Yeah, I think so, sort of like Gig economy needs blockchain and hopefully, you know, it's a it's a Gig economy that empowers both sides of the market. I think one of the problems with GIG economy and the legacy world is there's there's some predatory stuff. I think that that's going on in GIG economies, but you know, that's probably the subject of a whole nother conversation around. All right, well then, well then where does we're does like blockchain fit him right? If this is the marriage of these things, why does blockchain make it better? Yes, and I think that that's an excellent question. And I definitely got like a lot of skeptical VC's when I was originally pushing get coin, thinking like well, you can just build this in the Fiat Fiat Network Games, and I think it's definitely true. But I mean there's that way in Gretz he quote, that that is a that goes something like you should skate to where the puck is going right, and if we believe that we're building a decentralized, open financial system, then then you should. You should build for the future and not for for the legacy one, and that was like my abstract answer and I don't think it was very convincing to the like VC's and people when I was pitching nine months ago. But here's the real answer. Here's like the exciting, like act full pragmatic answer. There's actually funding for open source software and blockchain. Like chasing too few developers in the block chain ECOT system. That doesn't exist in legacy open source. Like legacy open source, like you know, traditional open source, you're you're there's not enough dollars, chasing too many developers, and so I think that that's the real punctuated equilibrium upon which which get coin exists, in the reason why our average arely rate on the platform is between twenty five and seventy per hour. Like legitimate, legitimate funding for open source. Well, I mean it's a little farther than that for me personally. I mean, what would your payment mechanism be? You're not going to run your own like PCI compliant payment system if you don't have to, so you'd go through something like pay power stripe. Those add the central points of control and favor over your over your platform, and when you're working with open source, you really don't want to introduce too much influence from outside parties. I just to me seems like also there's a political motivation here as well, and that I can you can facilitate transactions without relying on paypal. You can still state for transaction about relying on the bank, other credit cards and you don't have to deal with those payment mechanisms that could possibly influence over what should be an open and completely free software environment. I worry about. I worried about like platforms, like say the status takes off, this becomes the standard of how people contribute to open source projects, so on and so forth. And I found this cool bug or bounty, I solve it, I submit it and they're like hey, thanks for the answer, go fuck off, I'm not paying you. How does that stop? Had like how do you? How do you stop that type of thing? Well, you don't. He said it earlier than the arbitrations. The arbitray just has to come into play, like at what point does that become necessary? Right now we have a community to people were that that's not that big of a deal. Like the the the ideology of people trying to solve the bounties...

...on, get on, get coin is probably a lined enough and that they're going to pay out when a bug is solved. In in the eventual future that will no longer be the case. When does the arbitration network become necessary? Yeah, but I think that as we scale, you know, our tighten it little community is going to have to scale and social norms are going to change. But I think that we're looking at doing the arbitration network in the next couple of quarters. I get coin, but it is it does feel great. So stumbled upon this community where where the ethos is very forward looking and and and so it hasn't been much of a problem this far, although I will say that, like software, software development is inherently iterative, especially in the twenty one since or in the twenty one century, with Agile and everything like. There's a real problem with progressive disclosure, I think in software development, both at full times jobs that I've worked for also on Git coin. So I mean you say that you want x, but then you see a solution that meets technically answer the scope x and and you're like, oh well, you know, I didn't think of this before, but wouldn't it be cool if why existed in there too? Yeah, you know, that's that's there's nothing wrong with that. That's just how software development is. And so part of what we've been doing as a platform just to like coach people from a UX standpoint is, hey, like, you're going to post this bounty for x and you're going to put, let's call it, a hundred die on it, you should have thirty five die in reserve for a. If this person does a Badass job, if they're really fast, if they do it really well, you should maybe send them a little bit extra on top. Or if there's progressive disclosure of the scope, then you can agree to like hey, sorry, I know this wasn't the scope before, but can I just have it and I'll give you like x amount more of Diet. And we found that, just like treating other humans like humans on the on the platform has has gone a long way in preventing those kind of disputes that that aren't like bad actors but are just miscommunications that can occur in software development. So I'm actually going to lend something else to th that's kind of unrelated to decentralization, but I've run a trading post plat form for particular video game just because I'm passionate about this game and when I first started the platform they were scams all over the place. I were people like trying to the thing that solved it is I built a Karma system where people who fulfill trads and people who post trades can mutually give each other Karma. And what that built was a point economy where people became more trustworthy within the ecosystem itself, and I thought that would prevent people from starting to break into the actual economy. What it whild up doing is having the opposite effect. It made people reach out and actually communicate in and build bonding trust with people who had already established themselves in the community, which grew the community itself exponentially. I went from like a thousand users to ten to tenzero users, and and and I feel like we often you people with a very cynical sense because on the Internet especially, I don't think this is historically the way we viewed a lot of folks and and we have this moral economy baked into the way things work. But we kind of lost that moral economy because the Internet is completely anonymous now, with the centralization and these the blockchain and identities being tied to particular things. Like you said before, your Github user is kind of your identity, right. You don't want to tarnish your identity because then nobody will want to work with you. So you can actually build systems which build credibility for yourself and give you incentivization to continue to work because you can actually put food on the table. I feel like those two things married together, you're going to see literally only the most sociopathic, antisocial people exploiting and those people will be rooted out and not welcome and they will build a terrible reputation of themselves and then they can't eat. Nikky case or at a really I don't know if you guys have played with any of Nikki case is like interactive flash style games. Plays wonder truth is fantastic. Yeah, they evolution of truth in like actually have out of the of the score screen from that that game up in like his like free big takeaways from the evolution of trust, which is which is a game in which you can you can gain out how different participants in a network can evolve towards trust or distrust, and basically the three things, like the three like three parameters that you want to design into your network is a repeat interactions keep a relationship going and and help trust evolved. Possible wind winds besides, are possible win wins between people in the network, as...

...opposed to like a zero sum game. And then the third is low miscommunication. So if there's too much miscommunication, then trust breaks down, and if there's only a little bit of miscommunication, then building in forgivingness into your platform is important. So, like that example of progressive disclosure I gave earlier, I think is an example of that. And so it's up to us, as people who are designing these these networks, to keep these these considerations in mind. And like, the really exciting thing for me is that I don't know if y'all know about Dunbar's number, but it's this proposed cognitive limit where you can only interact, only interact healthily, with up to a hundred and fifty people in at a time, like you can only maintain relationships with that many people, and I think that, I think for me, is scaling outside of my local community, building protocols that allow participants to interact in scale, has dumb bar's number as humanity, because I just think that if we're going to build programmable money. If we're going to build this like ecosystem, that where money is a core protocol of the Internet, then incentives become a core protocol the Internet and we should program our values into our money and we should scale community as opposed to as opposed to in another direction, and so that's one of the things that really keeps excited about working at get. Kind really love that. I'm going to steal that. I'm not going to lie. We're also we're also my keeping. We're also keeping like the evolution of trust. will put that in the description as well, just because it's the something that I think I'll everyone should look at turn in this community. I'm glad you guys are into it, because Scott, who's the guy who set up this interview, is like they want to talk about technology and like the program and going in like a thought. We're like Ted X, Ted x, talk direction with this. The thing is with decench, the thing that attracted me the space is that the two are none in separate. Ideology behind what we're building in this particular space, and that's that's attractive to me. Speaking of ideology, key, talk to me about what's called Code Fund a little more Oh yeah, so. So, basically, get coins mission is to grow open source software and the the platform that we've talked about for ninety percent of this conversation is is get coined bounties. And I think that bounties are great, but they're only one tool in the tool belt and there's that old computer science cliche that if the only tool you have in your toolbox is a hammer, then every problem is going to look like a nail, the gold and Hammer I've I've wrote about that. Yeah, in bout these are great, but they're they're a hammer and you know what, if you have a problem that requires a electric screw driver. So basically, CODE FUND IS A complementary product to get coin that also supports open source software, but with a completely different way of doing it. And what it is is it's an ethical advertising framework for software developers. The basically the way it works is that if you have a repo with a bunch of stars and and you're starting to go down the burnout cycle, then you can place an add on your repo and get paid, like monetize your audience now, not sell out your audience, because it's ethical advertising and you're only displaying ads for other other software development platform on your repo. But basically it's a way to solve the burnout cycle with with open source, and that's by getting actual funding for your presence in open source software. And so it's it's basically an ad network that allows you to decouple your income from the work that you're the work that you're doing, whereas, opposed to bounties, is get paid out for the scope, the scope that you do. So sort of excited about building up this little this like tool box of tools that are mental health count he's is just one component of that. Do we have there? Sorry, I had to Termin MYC offer second. Yeah, I mean, I can you. Can you kind of go into a little bit too? Why bounties is is the hammer problem? I don't quite see that. I mean I see I see selling add space to human attention, like you see of a bunch of stars in your and your good Oprepo, for instance, that that brings a lot of attention. People like, oh, that's legitimate. Then you if you can sell that as ad as add space for people who would also like to push their message out. That's reasonable. But why is the bounties a hammer and nail problem? Well, I just think that so. So, basically, I think that there's a contributor life cycle in open source software and IT goes from being a perspective contributor to an open source repo, to actually becoming a contributor, to becoming a maintainer of that open source repo, and that's the happy path. But the problem is that there's there's failure paths along the along the...

...open source life cycle right now. Like if you're a contributor, maybe you lose interest in the projects and you move on to all this stuff, like your corporate job is what pays bills. Maybe move on to that. I think that with with being a maintainer, there's a particular problem with burnout. So basically, if you have you know, I if you you start off your open source repo on a high and you're starting to get like fifty stars and people are really into it and you're just like energized by the attention, but then when it gets up to five hundred stars, it becomes more of a burden and people are like are emerging, my pull request and do you know that your shit doesn't work on OS? Okay, I get this now. So basically, like get coins really good at accelerating the path for perspective contributor to become a contributor and it's really good at preventing you from losing interest because you're getting paid for working on that. And I think the code fund is is really good at keeping people from getting burnt out or maintainer because they're actually getting paid for their presence and for their work and open source software. And so I don't mean to say that like, I don't know, maybe maybe bounties isn't the Hammer, like maybe bounties is like a crowbar or something like that. I don't know, it's I'm just saying that it's only one tool in the tool box. There's multiple ways to solve the incentive and life cycle problems and open source and that's our mission is to is to is to build cryptoeconomic forces that accelerate the happy path of an LSS life cycle and decelerate the unhappy path, like the burnout path. Makes Sense? Yes, definitely. So let's get back to some of the technicals here. You were going to finish up your talk on some of the architecture discussion. Let's let's is your entire application decentralized? How do you know, we're where your points of centralization. Why did you choose those points and, you know, do you plan on mitigating any of those in the future? Like what do your thoughts are? How things built down? What are your thoughts? Yeah, so Um Standard bounties, which is like sort of like the beating heart of the system, is totally decentralized on the etherum network and we use a theium smart contracts and IPFs for for that extensively and we're really, really happy to say that the heart of our application is decentralized. The we do have like an issue with query ability of information on smart contracts, and so for that information we work for that. To solve that problem, we mirror a lot of that information to a postcressed out of base, which basically allows us to just very quickly query without having to reach out to Infura or a web three RPC. Like give me all bounties in the last ninety days that have the keyword python in them. You know, it's just like it's it's cheaper to do that in a relational database them to have to go out to the the web free network. And in order to do that, I think there's like parts of that that are aimed to increase the user experience, that are centralized, but because they're not the heart of the system, then I'm not super concerned out about that. So that's like one category of centralization. The second category that I'll mention is that standard bounties was developed about twelve months ago and since then our our conception of what needs to be in the application has has sort of changed a little bit and there's areas that the standard don't really match what we need to do in practice for an optimal user experience. For example, when we first launched Git coin, there was a problem where multiple people would start working on a bounty at the same time and they both submit a pull request and they be like, Oh shit, someone are going to be solved this problem. So it's like all man, I've just wasted my time right here. So we built in this feature called start work, which is which is not submitting. It's not a testing that you finished the work, it's just sending a signal to everyone else that this bounty is already been started. So please don't work on top of me, work over top of me, and that's all just in our postcrest database. It solves a valid UX problem to be able to signal that you started work on it but it's not part of the fat protocol and be in the standardbount these framework. So we're looking to solve that with standard bounties. Two Point O, which just got accepted as an EAP in the last week or two and and you can expect it within the next six to nine months. Little things like that will be built into the protocol as opposed to just being built in Gate Clin. That's really cool. I think that's a great way to kind of stort to wrap this up, is there any questions that you wish we would have asked you that we didn't get around to? Yeah, I mean I think that so.

So any thanks for asking that. And like the question that I always like to ask self is what kind of world do we want to live in? And I think that one of the things that Unites People in crypto right now is decentralization, and that's a very abstract, abstract answer. So when, if I was going to answer that question for myself, the thing that, like tangibly, I care a lot about is creating real you and user value and creating bridge for for users in the in in across the world using blockchain for actual real world use cases. And so, you know, I think the we've covered a lot of that. We've sort of like criss crossed a lot of that inner interview. But I would just challenge your listeners to to look past what exists now and think about the broader vision of a open source financial system and how it's going to be different from the the old financial system and to build the world that they want to live in, because I think that that's that's what's going to power us as we enter the middle of the twenty one century. All right, I have a I have a I have another. I want to challenge you on that a little bit. I don't like the idea of decentralization for the for the idea of digital de Cilization. Like the point of doing it is not to decentralized. What of doing it is to is something else right. It's like I don't like doing something just to do it. Why are we do centralization? What's the whole point? Like, what are we trying to centralize? If you don't, if you don't specify the reasoning for digitalization, you're doing it just for decentralization's sake. It's not good enough. So what's the point? Like, why do we care? What we're what are we trying to mitigate or get rid of? Yeah, I mean I think that what I was trying to say when I ask that question to myself and then answered it was that I think that we need to build a world that we want to live in and I think that, well, I don't know how aligns people are on the how much consensus on what kind of world we all want to live in what that looks like, but I think that less, less rent seeking intermediaries is is something that people agree with in the abstract. I think providing providing leverage to individual participants in the in the network is a really important thing. And for me what that looks like is the network topology is more of a peer to peer network, like a mess network, and not more of a top down a top down network, and and that allows and that allows a lot of interesting things to sort of to sort of cop involved. But I don't know, it's a conversation and I don't have all the answers. Like I mean, here's all think a better. You said the Mesh Network, so you're talking about like Internet of blockchains, rather than if you bring and they you'd bring this up. I love this question because I'm still on a one world blockchain camp. I really am. I really believe, like they, we're going to least evolve a gravitate towards the standard of value like, and I keep calling it the unitized measure of value. One of the things I bring up a lot and we're going to bring it up in this this other kind of trial type podcast were doing and article I just wrote, which is basically the transcript of a rant that I did, is is, you know, we have leaders, we have centimeters, we have homes, we have volts, we have cells here this we have Kelvin, we have all these like unitize measures of reality. Yeah, and if greatly scaled our ability to to interoperate with each other as a society and it's greatly improved of the way that we all communicate our measurements of that reality. And yet the one thing we don't have that we use literally every day in any sort of unitize, standardized measurement is value. And I feel like a oneworld blockchain solution where every there will be other blockchains, but they will have to kind of adhere to this thin protocol of what is value, yeah, and how things kind of exchange in this very base layer is almost necessary to scale society to post scarcity levels, you know, and that's really the goal for me, with decentralization and everything else and everything we do as human beings, our entire goal is a civilization needs to be focusing on achieving the goal of Post Scarcity Society. Yeah, I think that. I like it's sort of interesting to hear you say articulated that lay, because I think that in a way we're sort of asking, what does this ecosystem look like as it evolves and as if the hopefully a major...

...player on the world stage, and you already sort of started. You already sort of see bitcoin evolving this store of value use case where on exchanged you can exchange it did to any other coin off of Bitcoin, and e's, I think, is increasingly playing a player, playing a role there. So, you know, as much evolved than obviously there's consolidation and you saw that with the mobile phone space, where now it's ten years in and it's only iolessend android. I'm hopeful that in the future will see less less like random chains that people have to pay attention to and you'll be able to just pay attention to the prominent ones. Do you have an opinion on which chain is going to help US achieve post scarcity? Collin probably done of them at the moment and I like it theory, until get me wrong, but it's nowhere nearer needs to be for that kind of that kind of use case. I mean, what I'm really looking for is this is like the first step towards post scarcity and I don't think like the chain itself is the solution to post scarcity society, but it is an essential component. It is the first major leap that man will need in order to better utilize and more efficiently exchange assets globally. And you know, one of the one of the issues that we have is is just knowing how much something is worth is difficult. It's pretty much a ship show and I feel, like you know, just having their kind of data, knowing where things are, who owns them, how we can acquire them, where they're what what the actual demand is and reach kind of an economic equilibrium between supply and demand, is going to be an essential part of reaching post scarcity society, because there's a lot of other leaks. Will need will need to improve manufacturing processes, will need to improve global supply chain, will need to improve recycling processes, will need to improve energy distribution, will need to improve communication. There's all these aspects of society that needs significant improvement and the only thing that is missing that enables us to start building that infrastructure is a single source of truth that defines what value is and how values exchange and assets are stored and recorded and in transported and, you know, and ownership is determined. To Hash. I'm from Jupiter. There's not. There's not has. There's not been a single episode where calling has not tangent it off into the future of what could be. So okay, well, I mean, I would love to keep tangenting off that tangent. Keep going. If you want to keep going, riff it. So I have a I have a computer science backgrounds and I like things that are tangible and and are, you know, like explicit reformed. And one of the fun things about sitting around with my blockchain friends after after a meet up, is talking about the future of what could be, because it's like dreaming of a better society. Father and and so I've been I've learned to sort of escape from my programmer roots and to go into a little bit more of those dreamy ideas, and part of that has been reading Eric Posner's radical markets, which is a book that we get that book. That book is Great. It is the second chapter, but just learning about the idea of introducing markets into areas of life where they haven't existed already. And I can't even like articulate any of his ideas at this point, but but basically, just like you're able to increase economic value by giving more people a voice ins by putting prices on assets that don't have prices. Now there's there's some really cool ideas in that book. Absolutely. Yeah, no, we mentioned that book a few times on the show already. Corey's actually the one who turn me onto it. While we're at consensus two thousand and eighteen. Immediately went out and got it and it's a fantastic book. I'm going to have to reread it because it was it has so much in there and unfortunately the audiobook version, which I don't think did it quite justice, but it was enough to get me super excited and I love that book. I've also been reading a lot more on, you know, just old school economic guys, and I'm not even like pro economist. I think a lot of what they do is Outcomey, but the the the ideas that they started and that the the things that they they're actually able to start to come to fruition now, because a lot of them, like hiake and Milton Friedman, spoke extensively on the ideal currency and that was impossible back in the day and now it is and I'm really excited to see how we actually responsibly use those ideal currencies or builds the ideal currency, because we had not had that ability in the past. I think it's going to facilitate a lot of the things that radical markets discusses and posts books is. It's really great. I really excited, I think. I think, even though the term currency is a bad term if you want to try...

...start talking about ideal currency, it's more like the thing we're looking at as a generalization of what currency is. It's just generalized value of exchange, whatever value means to certain people, and creating that, I think, is what cryptocurrencies are trying to do, or blockchain in general. Blockchain with a good consensus mechanism is trying to do is generalize the idea of Value Exchange and then, once you go there, you can then do all kinds of certain things on a human to human level. And what we've seen up to date is a is a reframing of what we already know using the new tools we've created through blockchain, and it's we're only now starting to kind of experiment with new ways of doing things through this generalized source of Irus Change. But we're all we're only evaluating them through the lens of what we all already know, like financial modeling, Shit like that, and that's not that's not good enough, and that I think it's going to be well till we get to the point where we can come up with new ways of valuating these things, and that's the thing they like, really exciting about this space is that is that there's going to be so many new places that ex change of value are going to happen, and I think that the like the analogy that I make in this case is that the Internet change our lives because it's the ability for computers to information across the network. Right yes, and what blockchain does is allows you to route value or scarcity across the network, right, with ownership, with ownership, yeah, and and so. Like what Napster did to the recording industry, I think it's possible that that blockchain could do to the financial services industry and change the way change value with each other. Like the number one analogy that I like to use when talking about what you guys are talking about, which is, I perceive all these new use cases, is that before the Internet, you would never send a person a piece of snail mail, like if you have a coworker, that's like free cubicle. Never send them a piece of snail mail. That's like Hey, what do you want to get for once today? Because right. But how many people have said that email? Probably hundreds of thousands, if not millions, and it's because it's cheap and it's instant. So it enables all these use cases for a change of information that didn't exist before. So what's the parallel with this new financial network that we're building where you can exchange micro amounts of value just like very casually that you couldn't because of the old, old financial system was too extensive and too slow. That's a good analogy, I think, for kind of a visualizing what we're talking about, like what, what could you do earlier? That's like just commonplace today. And then in the hard part of this is, in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, who would have who would have come on a podl there went a pot. We want to radio. You're going to be able to mail your co worker and ask them what they want to get for lunch. If you sound like a crack pot if you said that in one thousand nine hundred and ninety three, with the existing cardimes and in everything, and so in two thousand and eighteen, trying to project twenty years in the future, how are people going to exchange value over this Internet of value is equally hard. Well, coming coming full circle here, like we need to find ways to guess. The only reason why we act the way we do in the world of the Internet is because of the applications that are built on the Internet and how they're built. Right. And so when you talk about building things on the internet or on blockchains, you have to then talk about how you build the applications on top. I gets to talk about the WHO's buildings applications and WHO's incentivizing building of these applications and like how you interact with. This has been a key concept that I've been trying to build up for a long time. The infrastructure lays way to how you build applications on top of that infrastructure, which then lays way into how people interact with each other based on using those applications, and you need a good methodology of ways to build applications, and I think previous ways of incentivising people to buil applications encouraged this. What are you offering me as a as a company, as opposed to what do you offer me as a individual, which I was this downside to. So you brought up the napster analogy, which I think is interesting, especially to me because actually worked in I try to start a company. I've worked on it for four years. I had a piece of an algorithm I developed which did video fingerprinting extremely efficiently. Basically, it's my own content ID system for like Youtube and stuff. Yeah, and so I got really deep into the the whole perceptual hashing, fuzzy hashing kind of side of things, which, you know, really lends itself well to this decentralized you know, the whole cryptocurrency space. You know, copyright is a is a problem for artists, and you see people like image in...

...heap trying to leverage blockchain to bring out the company and go more one to one to compensate people who are providing you entertainment. And the reason you can do that is because you can kind of tract these assets and how they're being used and stuff like that. I feel like, you know, yeah, we're still early and no, it's not viable at the moment, but being able to in build a new types of incentive models surrounding creation of just intellectual property, bypassing the need for the patent system, bypassing the need to register a copyright, which you really don't have to do anyway. You know, all these things. This notary system that is the blockchain enables people to sort of have rights that they have lost as a result of free information exchange, but still retain the value of free information exchange and that they can just freely exchange the information if they show desire. So I think it's I think it's just fascinating. The the the way the world is going to change in the next twenty years, I believe, is going to be more drastic than the way the world change in the twenty years after the events of things like prodigy and comfy serve. It's just, it's just, it's we're just done it, we're just just beginning and it's rapidly growing, faster than any of those technologies did either. I like your example of music industry because you know, how in history has there been a more centralized rent seeking like now people who are trying to innovate their I just wish them God speed because I think that, you know, there's the whole starving artist, musician, moving to New York kind of thing, and and then there's the beyonce's of the in between that there's there's a whole lot of value that's being created, that is it recognized, and whoever can crack that nut and allow people to build their own audience and retain ownership over the good that they're creating for the world, or maybe not ownership, but a stake in it at least, that's really exciting and applies to and a creative pursuits. To be at your painter, you don't want your what's that? Coding? There you go, you know, you're a painter, you're a you're a musician, you're a video producer, like all of these things are. And not only that, but there's subjects of censorship. If there's a single point like youtube, having issues with that right now. If you can build in sons of models. It's all depend on a centralized organization. You could be you can at the market decide what the market it wants, as a downside of making people like Alex Jones a little more biable, but you know, it also makes actual artists and people producing things not being having their message compromised by an industry that's driven by marketability and not market forces. All right, at the cost of as much as I love to Wax Poetic about this indefinitely, I'm going to have to cut a short hair and wrap this up. So if you enjoy this conversation, listeners, please click the like, click the subscribe, tell your friends, give us feedback on twitter, Kevin, how can people reach out to you and get coin and yourself get coins that get coincom so check us out there. I am at a Waukee on twitter, which is a Owo C Ki, and I love to debate stuff like this on twitter. So send me a tweet and and thanks some absolutely we'd love to have you and I look forward to kind of seeing how get coin grows to help instead of eyes, like good quality open source development. So thanks for creating a good coin. o Man, thank you for having me.

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