Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 28 · 3 years ago

Hashing It Out #28: Panvala - Niran Babalola

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

So you have a decentralize app you want to use... how do you know its smart contracts are safe? That's where Panvala comes in! Using their system you can certify the security and authenticity of your smart contracts and obtain a mark in proof of this certification. On this episode we talk with its co-founder, Niran Babalola, about their smart contract registry and certification system. We learn of its process, development, and larger implications. We learn what it takes to get from zero to one in a project that requires community participation to improve the certification process.

Links https://www.panvala.com/ https://twitter.com/niran

Now injry tiwork welcome to hashing it out APOASS forResolk to the tech, innovators, behind blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at Wyan how peoplebuild this technology the problems they face along the way, i'me listening andlearn from the best in the business. You can join our ranks backaeso twenty eight of hashing it out.As always, I'm DTOR COR petty here with Calin Cuchet SA witelp calling what'sup Colin and today's episode r Cun tell you start apaus like man or forever andEveryo one of Hem every's one of Hem. Today's episode we're going to talkwith Panvala. We have Neron Babalola from consintous diligence talking abouta new product or a product that they're offering called Panfalla, not even aproduct more like A. I would call it, but do centralize calland put it as adecentialized veraside, as ye were talking about this before you joined us.So welcome to the show you want to give us a quick introduction as to kind ofhow you got started in the space and then also with Penvala, and what it is awesome. Thanksfradin Egos D,centralits verysign is a great analogy for what we're building so for me personally, like I, I gotinvolved in the theorego system back in early twenty fifteen, or so I cameacross a project called Auger and UH. I I'd heard about prediction marketsbefore I I'd heard that if you let people bet on the howt comes of futureevents, the results of those bets. Basically, the ratio of them could giveyou a good forecast of those future events, but those assistants tended toget shut down or restricted, because we were seen s onmine gambling effectively.So she could build a desentralize system that couldn't get shut down.Then you could probably have more forecast for more kind of events,higher trading volume. You could have more information that people would haveavailable to be able to make decisions about what they wanted to do in theworld. So that sounded pretty appealing to me idovein and that's when it reallybecame clear what a serium was useful for it to me when I first heard aboutit. Thers like this is just another scam coin. They took bigcoin and theystuck a programing language into it and they're telling people that that'sgoing to make their token worth more. It turns out that you definitely want aprogramm in language and your money like if your money doesn't have aprogramming language, you should probably get a programming language andput in in your money. It's extremely useless. It became clear to me that Hocould basically for any interaction between individuals or among groups ofpeople. You could basically write a set of rules like a board game and for anyinteraction that those people wanted to participate in once you handed overthose rules to those people, as long as that interaction was producing effectsthat they enjoyed, that there was more value coming out of it for them thanthey were putting in they'd, be able o continue to participate in thatinteraction for im as long as they wanted to without ever needing to relyon anybody else, they can just do it themselves, and that was kind of a mind blownmoment. For me, I was IE, there's, probably tons of things tons of hinteractions. People would like to participate in thet ad value foreveryone, who's cooperating, but it's hearts and for its rules it's hard toget everybody together on the same page, and if we can build these systems,people would probably cooperate on a lot more things that they can'tcurrently do. So I quit my job. I tried to find every company that was doinganything in the tern space was very early at that point. There weren't thatmany companies, eventually I came across consensus andthey had the division page on their site and it was like. Oh, we see thetechnology of creating a new political, social and economic oprating system forsociety, and I was like Oh these. These are my people. This is the place. Ishould probably work as I've Benge on the door for long enough and eventuallythey lent me in and it's been pretty cool. I I started working on noiscontinuing the prediction market angle. Then I worked on a couple of prototydeswhere thesentralized nonprofits, the first pread, is Hav on lunch beforedeath time, toinching hi. That was pretty interesting. I think the secondPRADOF type I'de. Never actually got to lunch like one of the main reasons Iwas building these prototypes without any tokens involved. It's because Ithought it would have reduced the legal issues that I would run into I'd justbe able to put it out there and let people use them without having to waityears for things to be clarified, but was my second Prodo ID by case thoselegal issues anyway. So I was like okay, fast alonou to put this on the shelfand find something productive to do and, second of all, the next time. I look atthis thing. I'm going to put some tokens in there and figure out how touse stoken to Coordinat, do sonshive non Ropit, so I've been doing smartcontract auditing for about a year and...

...a half or so, and while doing that, wecame across this idea os a team that it would be very useful if there was somesort of registry of which contracts had been noddited, which contracts weresafe enough to use. That became like an idea that wasclearly valuable, but it didn't seem like enough to make a token system work.Necessarily people have differing opinions on tcrs,TOKINGCR Gredistries. It didn't feel like that alone would be extremelysuccessful, but going back on what I'd thought through forty sensrise onprofits, if she could build a system that made a therium safer and basicallycoordinate contributions around that. That to me seemed like something that,combined with setting e standard ind a decentralized way for Smart Contrasecurity like something that a lot of people would want to participate in. Sothat's aeffectively. What Pan Ball is it's a basically consumer reports forSmart Contract Security? We want to make sure that when people areinteracting with smart contracts, that it's not just some random address thatthey're seeing they don't know who wrote it they don't know who audited it.They don't know. If the auto was any good th, they don't even know if thecode that they're using esps so it's kind of a disaster, and ifwe C H set a standard for what's safe enough to use and make thoserecommendations. I think we would clear a lot of that up by having a standardfor aspired towards combined with that. Our System Issues Grants Denominat ID Nth tokens of the system itself. So if you ca fund things that people want tosee an our egosystem that make a therium safer in general and then findthe funders for that same stuff to make our systems sustainable, we want thetokens going into the system to be the same as the tokens going out of thesystem. It's not grants based on some sort of speculative value. We actuallywant to find the flunders for the things that we're issuing these grantsfor and make a sustainable system that can fund all the things you want to see. So I would say, you've either said thatbefore or you had been wanting to say all of that before 'cause. That was agood. That was a really good kind of like this is how I started. This is howI got to where I am all in one bucket, and I have a lot of esents from thereot Um Callindoei in particular, 'cause, I'mtrying to figure out where I want to start with us. So my understanding of Penballa is thatUm people can certify evolidity. Any theyou know the amount of Um. I don't know the the level of veracitythat the particular smart contract has been bedded. Is that an accurateunderstanding of what Pan Bala does? That's pretty accrate? So it'sbasically people who wrote the code like the Authoris, the team that builtthe system they're basically going to apply for a Penn, Balomar they're,saying that we think our contactor secure enough to meet the thiscommunity standard. So we want to got a mark. So the world knows that we metthose standards to ply first they're going to seek a recommendation beforethey ever touchd. The Block Cang they're seeking a recommendation forsome group that the that the token holders already trust sowe're initializing this system with th penvalomark, counsils, Werere,disappointint some people and saying that this group is going to issuerecommendations that the tokenholders can overrule if they want to. They don'thave to abide by the recommendations of this group, but that's the first placeyou go when you're trying to get a pen, Olimar you'll apply. The council getsyour application and then they decide on their own. Whether or not torecommend to the token holders that Ou get hem work once you have thatrecommendation from the council or whatever group H, gains respect in thehegosystem from there. You go to the black chain Itsulf and you stake yourtokens. You say I I'm basically I'm taking a pen balimark. Somebody stoppedme, here's my recommendation and that's why I'm trying to take amark. I put my tokens down. These tokens are going to be there for thelife of the mark. So if it ever becomes clear that I shouldn't have gottenAmark, I'm going to lose my money and if the token holders decide that theydon't support that recommendation and they want the Counsil to stop makingrecommendations, I'm also going to lose my money. So if I just say well thiscounsel, I trust this counsel and the token holders actually don't. When Istake my tokens, I'm taking a risk and they you might lose those tokens th thecouncils that actually trustit. Ah intest. That's that's how you get I. Iwas wondering about that n. It terms like if there was like a time period inwhich Um your your funs were at stake and since it's the life of the mark,that makes a lot more sense, because I was imagining a scenario where people,basically who were flling on the radar or applying for a mark. No one reallypays an attention to them. They get one and then they gain a lot of ground andpeople find potential issues with their smart contracts because it it seems asthough it's a it's a system based on descent Um and that you need people toactively go against...

...the reasons for not giving he markversus people. Just saying hey, I ant e mark, Hey, I want to work, and so, ifthat's the case, then the work is worth nothing and since the life of the token,as you gain traction and ground which made tentially be ill, advise because I tryin Figire to say this: Can Peopleget a mark who don't deserve one right? Yes, so the the the guard arails toprevent that from happuning h, the othe holders themselves are the final say,they're the ones who control whether Er markets issued if uh. If they letsomeone get a mark who doesn't deserve it, they've kind of failed to defendtheir system. It's reputation h! If, if you issue march to people who don'tdeserve it, that's probably going to reduce the number of people who want toapply for it because less people are paying attention to it. theythey'veeffectively reduced the demand for token by issuing marks H frivolouslyfrivolously H, so they probably don't want to do that. It requires actoveparticipation and you're boost rapping that with a counsel, Osssecrractor Yeah. So we do token cuated regesties alittle bit differently than most people do so it does require actirparticipation in that you don't want Um marks to just be issued without anyjustification or based on a justification you don't agree with, butwe think that with a counsel ind place that it really becomes more of aquestion of. Do you trust this recommendation and that's not a superhigh level of engagement. That's required you just when you see thesepending applications, and you see that these two are recommended by thecouncil. This one isn't it becomes clear that if you don't wantunrecommended applications to get, I wark, you should just challenge it. Youdon't have to evaluate the details of the application itself. You know basedon principle that you don't want unrecommended applications to get onwork. So you just challenge it. You didn't have to spend your time doing.Research on smart contract security, you just use your limited knowledge ofsomeone who's in the in that there in community knows. What's going on, paysattention to know that hey this, this isn't right like we want to make surethat our h marks are getting recommended by somebody not just beinggrabbed by anybody who thinks they should get. If the PEN Valimar counsilteers away from what they should be doing. Maybe they start issuingfrivolous recommendations. Then, then, that's when you have to be an actorparticipant and be like hey guys, whe need to coordinate a new process for yoR, issuing recommendations and STOPP. These guys from making recommendations. Can you you describe the the challengeprocess, sure so we're we're building the system base on quarterly voting. Sothe idea is that there's effectively one to two weeks, every quarter whereyou need to be paying attention to what has been proposed over the last quarter.So once this period arrives thats when challenges are open, so you can startchallenging any application that you think is shouldn't make it if it wasn'trecommended or if you don't like the group, that'smaking recommendations.That's when you make your challenge. You stake at the same number of tokensthat the applricant did. If, if the the a challenge, initiatievot the token helders on token one vote and then majority rules, so it doesn'tmatter how many people turn out. Whichever side is the majority? That'sthe side, that's going to win. So if you support the recommendation, thenthe market's going to go through and the challenger loses their topens. Ifyou oppose the recommendation, the mark isn't going to go through the applicantloses their tokens and th whoever recommended it knows that they need toeither like just stop makinging recommendations, change their process,change. The members of the council, they need to change something Toregain,the trust ofits, an olders, so you're using tokens as a value added voting mechanism, so that people will want to be able to cash outand sell their tokens. But my question is how many people really will want tobuy the Tokens Um? So, if you're using the token economy to drive yourcertification system, there has to be enough people interested in certifyingthe applications that are on the system. To me, it seems like you would have alot more people involved in the system than people who want to get into thesystem, which means that the UH fungability of your tokens is reduced.BECUT, l, funch of bills where, but people might not want to purchase thesetokens for that purpose. How do you incentivize people to want to buy penbolitokens Yo are not severs so h in in terms of the token holdersthat we see, we don't want people who are just trying to invest in tokens tobeholding our tokens. That's not what...

...the stokens really decigne. We see. Thapeople who end up holding tokens is people who actually want to steer thedirection of this ecosystem. So people who want to be active voters who wantto be choosing WHO's on the council want to be choosing which groups tosupport when they're making recomnations and which ones to notsupport. That's one group of participants obviouly another group ispeople who intend to apply for Penn balimarks ontheir own. So if you already see yourself as a team that develops smartcontracts, you think it's a good idea for a bar to be set for what safe,eough use and you want to participate in that system. As an applicant, thenyou're going to hold those token. So you have thos soakuns available whenyou're making our your application and then we also see people who buildwallet, Systems and block explorers that people are using to interact witharbitrary contracts at the end of the day, they're the ones who are going tobe displaying the mark in front of people where they're actually makingtheir decisions about which Mare contraxt e is so we want them to havean influence over whether or not America's going to be issued or whetherit's not because at the end of the day they control we, we we don't think they'll want todisplay a mark that they don't have an influence over. We want them to have aninfluence over the mark. Those are the main groups that we see Holdin thistoken and using on a regular basis. Um There's one more group. So again, thisis a system that issues grants in its own tokens. There's part of the tokensupply that's reserved for issuing grants at a decan rate over time, justlike the big Quin blockerword and the people who are doing work in theegosystem to make a therium safer, whether it's auditing common contractsthat lots of people use, building and tools that make it easier for peoplemake safe smart contracts, doing research that advances the state of theart, the best practices that we used to developte systems, all those people. Wewant them to apply for grants and receive grants from the system and oncethey get those grants, they're going to be token holders, they're going tohavete ability to steer this Thie Tho Istso. How are Tokens distributedexplaine this grant process to me a little more. So that's a good question. So,basically, H penball is a fixed token supply system. It doesn't inflate overtime or anything. But what we do do is that a portion of the token supplyright now we're thinking about half, is reserved in a smart contract. An wecalled a smart contract o the token capasitor and what it does is everyquarter part of the token supply ind. That contract is released to people whoH is made available to h to what'draw any token holder canpropose a destination for those tokens. The same way that you propose a penVolimer, you stake your tokens and if people don't like what you proposed,they can challenge it by staking the egual amount of tokens and then Ivo acurse. So what we want to happen is that over time were issuing less thanMus Tokens, because there's less and less tokens available in the tokencapaster Rom or contract, and that's why token capaster is a little bitdifferent from the way Tbe coin works instead of token's just coming out ofthis system, hokens can also go back in. We want people who, like the scenesthat we've been issuing, grants to to basically fund those grants on the backend to donate tokens, to support the incentive to cooperate in our system.If we can find enough tunders for the things that we're isuing grants for,then we can build up a flow of donations, that's equal to the flow ofgrants that are coming out of the system and we can build a sustainablemechanism for funding the things that we all want to see in this community.So I imagine that the goal of the value of thistoken is going to be reflective of the UH man hours spent on trying toevaluate security of smart contracts. So to me it's really more about the Um,so I I have no particular opinion about the value of the token, but as far aswhat makes it token more useful, I think the more cooperation we can h basically coordinate with our tokensystem. Basically, the more work that's being done to earn to to earn grants from the system andthe more utility. The token will have the more people who are actually tryingto get those grants and applying for those the more people who are donatingtheir buying tokens on the open market to donate their tokens because theysupport what being rewarded by the system. That's whatmakes it really useful h, the more things that we can actually coordinatetogether in our community as work? That's happening, four Penballi grantsthe more useful the tokens. I understand that, but there's likethere's a there's a like of time costs associated with with these tepes ofthings, especially if you're Stak in tokens. There needs to be you'restaking with respect to a certain amount of value. It says that thatsignals how much Um, I guess worse, you...

...think something is and and that'susually associated with the amount of time or security you're willing to putbehind whatever you're staking against and it it hopefully the amount case. Thisis going to be a lot of attention. People have to pay attention to a lotof these things so that they can either m, say something against them and andput uper a bottle or stake things themselves based on what they see inthe ecosystem, and- and I don't if, if the, if the actual utilitydoesn't work properly than people will gain the system or people won't look atit, it's going to be one of the two. If it does work, then it could be a reallygood, like how kindof centralizing factor fora lot of the security inmissure to figure out what's working and whatdoesn't and for those outside of that industry, to look and see Um what theyshould be looking at her or trusting. If it hasthis mark, the standardization of this system ends up working people wil havea better idea or better amount of trust associated with the things that they'reinteracting with, but it's Gointo be hard 'cause. I I imagine trying to get people to spend a lot oftime on systems then are directly beneficial to them isgoing to be very difficult, especially because the security industry indBlockcanis, is relatively small right now, although it's growing fast and a lot of people are competing forthese people's attention in time, um and it seems almost as though,considering that you don't lave people to really value the token outside ofthe ecosystem. Very much Um in citivization model for doing the worknecessary to validate Um doesn't seem very strong to me right now. Could youtell me why I'm wrong? So I I do think that people will beincentivized to participate because they see that the more people that areactually paying attention to this smark, the higher quality bar that we set forthis more the the more applications are coming through. So I I do think thatthe people who hold tokens ill either sell them or they'll hold them, because they believethat they can shape the direction of the secosystem and they'll payattention. To do that, I I go ahse. I imagine like e, Youkindof have this wonderful engine to boot, strapit if you can get everyoneand consensus to participate, uh, because there's a tremendous amount ofprojects within consensus that would submit applications for this type ofthing and since it's a part of conistsis diligence, you can try- andmaybe you know, push that a little bit. But then you have this other side ofthe coin of Lake. Does that ten become a bias of? Is this a consensus drivenmechanism? And then you have this massive percentage of people sociallyof the consensus and not a lot of people outside of it? That's a very good question. Within consensus, there's no way toforce people to do anything. I kno I I I work for status, it's similar typeorganization in terms of how it structured and it's hard to understand,even what's going on within your organization, much less get people todo things, an a unified manner, just in the way, the way, the way it's it'sstructured and organized, which is interesting and we're trying to figurethaut out ourselvs B t. What do you see associated with consensus, how this isplaying out, so I do think that it's like generallyuseful to be partof consensus like that's. Why that's why I work atconsensus, but I do think that part of the successive assystem depends onbeing a broad based H system. If we only have participation from productswithin consensus, I I don't think that's excess. Luckily, I think there'sa lot of people outside of Consentus who see the value in setting a standard for what's safeenough to use. We have a demo of our of the process of issuing a pen. Balimarkthat's happening this week on Thursday that'll, probably be after that'll,probably be before a lot of people actually hear this episin but h they'llbe able to watch the video of what we did during that De, but basically,we've Bas, we've appointed demo Anbalamart council with people acrossthe theor good system. So for this particular demo we have Mark Bailinfrom the boundies network. We HAV mean selemony from span chain. We have AlexChapman from Auger Chrissmith from meridio. We have Jonathan George fromcoinmersemary and Joe Ergo from districts Zeroex, so we're trying toget people from a crossego system wo who are interested in figuring out newways to run TCRS were interested in figuring out whether or not we can seta bar for smalt contract security to participate in this process and see ifit works. If if we can't get people across theAgucistin to agree that this is a good way to do this, then yes you're right,it won't take off. But I'm confident that both by th governence smecanismthat we put in place and then icentive...

...mechanism ith the Chiken itself thatpeople are Wanto are going to want to be a part of the system. I think it'ssomething that's been widely needed for a long time and I think also being ableto thun the thengs that we want to produce on a regular basis is just ahuge problem. There's lots of h there's lots of work within the EGO system thateveryone's like who pays for this like? How do we get this thing to happen? Andif we can organize under one banner, I think we can figure out Wi Pictor, so I don't want to bring up. This sounds a lot like the Dou, theoriginal Towin, a lot of ways um and that people are kind of directingwhere value should go or where it is h. But in this case you're just certifyingthe validity of a particular thing and that souns great and Al. But what what?What kind of concerning me a- and my concerns are probably not valid, isjust me trying to understand um is can't somebody amass enough tokens tobe a trump card player in this and basically streamline certification. Soif the market self has value, this is one particular application by sitMicrosoft. Microsot wants to streamline the process, they go directly to someguy who says hey. I can directly get this mark approved because I haveamassd enough tokens by buying them outside of the ecosystem, in whicheverything's being certified Um to use them to get your applications directlycertified immediately. Is that even possible? Am I misunderstanding how howthis works? I know you say voting, so I don't really know what that votingmechanism looks like. Maybe that would help me understand if I understood kindof what voting looks like and what qualification looks like, and that kindof thing. So that's a very good question and it'sh concerned that we've fot through a lot, so it is definitely possible tobuy enough tokens like if you buy fifty one percent of the token you can dowhatever you want. No one can challenge you H. What makes this different than alot of other systems is that since it's subjective, since the place wherepeople put their attention is totally under their control, it's very easy toafore conve system like if you decide that somebody is attacking iteffectively, because they've found a way to get enough tokens to do.whatevery theyg went all you have to do, is exclude them and then carry on on yourown, like the the with subjective systems. It's very easy to it's. It'svery easy to mitigate Tacx Cenarios, because you canjust look somewhere else. I E just don't look at what the attacker isdoing and exclude them when you create a new system with without them. What do you mean by excluding them? SoI mean yet say say you see, let's just talk in more concrete example, so yousee somebody who's attempting this okay Um, and they do that at voting Um tocertify a particular thing. They spend their tokens. This does not one accountwelleven if it were one account her her for token fer vote, Ey can still throwup infinitely. Many accounts that they need to to kind of bypass the theevalidity of the system. Each of those accounts would lookequally the same as any other account Um h. How would you identify that kind ofbehavior Um giving given the you know, a sort of anonymity behind particularaccounts Um in the lack of KYC, and you know the ability to Um have identityassociated with these. How do you prevent people from Um, especially spreading their tocasacross several hundred accounts, and then using that clout to pay to getcompanies like Microsoft to pay? I T doesn't seem very easilyidentifiable to me. They wouldn't have to have fifty one percent and oneaccount they would have to have fifty one percent in their personalpossession, which is a totally different thing. That is ver, that'svery true, so, basically the at the block chain level.The block chain is really just the court, for whatever has happened in thesocial sphere. So let's look at what happenes in the social sphere and thatexample, we have a process built up. That is the way you get of pen walimerand if somebody bypasses that that's a clear signal to the entire communitythat something as wrong, somebody did something different, and now we have tofigure out if the token holders actually support that different way.Let's say: There's this expedited and wolimark path that somebody has createdfor their own application, and we don't know that they did this Wel we well. Wewe know that they did this because they're saying that this is therecommendation for Um Microsoft, smart consmart contractswhen it goes to the actual smart...

...contracts, you're right, we can'tidentify whois voting for what, but at the social level, everybody knows whathappened. If they don't want that expedited path to exist, they justopenly oppose it and they find the people who agree with them and theycreate a new system with only those people that that's how you account forattacks. In these token base systems, you fork you leave because effectavelythey're, just a court for social SBSISTENCE. If something went wrong,it's a social level. If you don't support what happened at the sociallevel, thou, what happened to the black chain level doesn't matter, you justtake your contracts and go home. So then they're issued a mark,Microsoft gout there mark. How do we know that Microsoft had theirmark basically revoked in a sense through social means, Um, wh n? Whatdoes I mark? Look like? Actually s start with the R R it it's a it's aregistery on the block chain? It's! It's should be obvious. If you for I,because people who are going to refer to the registry associated with the onethat they're they have most confidence in, if you fork them that just thatjust changes where you're pointing to you to reference who has what or whohas what marks on what contracts, exactly that so in in a in a forksituation, it's basically the people who build the user in their faces, thepeople who build the websites that are telling people what's going on withPanvala they're, the ones who have kind of the first choice of which fork topoint to now. Once you choose a fork to point to you that might lose some ofyour audience. If your audience is part of the other camp, then maybe theystopped. Looking at your sit because you point in to a different fork: it'sa lot like what happens in it coin. Forks and things like that and thencoinin base has to decide W, which one is the real big coin, which ones arewhich one are we goin to point to like they have a lot of clout in thatscenario, and it's defining what Bquain is and our egosistannce whoever runsthe sites that people are looking at. They really have a lot of clout indefining what penballit s so afor cappins they choose, which one they'regoing to point to and their audience either goes with them or starts lookingsomewhere else. As far as what the mark looks like to begin with, it's a sitethat we controlled that's a registry of the CONTRAC systems that have beenissued to mark over time. We want wallets and blocketwors to integratethis into their ut as an aid for their users to make safer decisions whenthey're transacting on a therin. So, ideally, when you segn a transactionthere's a pen balmark that appears as a badge in that Ui just like that securebadge appears in your location, baring, your browser. I see what you mean, I'mcurious to see if the level of participation needs to be large for those who arejust trying to provide a service like that, I want to know like how muchpeople can use and trust the token, but notnecessarily participate in it because they're the ones that are most affectedby forks like that because, like you said like it, things that happen on thesocial layer are understood at he social layer, but for those who arejust like outsiders, looking in trying to extract as much value out of thesystem without participating in it will be affected the most because they're,not a part of that social layer. ththat's a good point, and I think thatwill be interesting to watch play out overtime. I I think it's going to endup being a lot more stable than people think like, since there are waysto mitigate for various attacks that happen, then sentitactually carry out.Those attacks becomes a lot lower, but we always have to have those plans andplace to be able to account for them. If and when they do happen. 'cause,it's always a possibility, but I think good planing makes it less. Thelik INDEFirsta yeah see jus working relatively well for a long period of time andbecoming somewhat of a standard for people to to kind of refer to in termsof overall safety and s mart contracts. I mean eventually I can see thathappening, because if we talk about the social level again, it's all goodwilling, active people in very small niche, passionate group, but as itgains value, you have a lot more onlookers and potentials and value inthe system to try and Um extract value without following the rules, and so youwon't really figure out Um some of these painpoints until I don't want tosay, like Oyo, already have a modocum of of success and that's Kindof likethat tha narrative, I see you across almost everything in this entireindustry, not security but blacin in general or technology in general. Isthat like, if you have a leaky bucket, but the hole in that bucket is closerto the top? You really don't know hit's leakiy until you fill it up, yeah and D.that's kind of what we're doing here is we're tryingto see with all this token economics and tocomcuity registries, and whateverthe hell were doing, we don't know if...

...they break until we fill them up andwe're still trying to fill a lot of these things up t I can see like justbeing useful across the entire space H for a while. I definitely hope so, like I think. Atthe end of the day, like token economic, Sok onsistents are really just to back up what we doas people. What we do is communities H. I know that there ar so many people outthere who actually want to make a tarium safer. So the fact that we'reusing a token to coordinate our activities H is, is, I think, a veryeffective way to organize people. I think it's the most powerful tool fororganizing people that we've ever seen, but at the end of the day, it's peopleworking together to accomplish the goals that they have and when, when thebucket starts to leak, I think we're going to cooperate to patch the bucket.No one can plan ahead for every potential outcome and these contractsistems. We don't know, what's going to happen, we don't know what works. Wedon't know what dosent we have Seris, but my theory is that as a communitywherein we're capable of incredible things- and I think we're going to oncewe get organized to actually accomplish our goals, it doesn't matter whatsystem is underneath, doesn't matter how many bugs it had on Baywon becausewe're going to coaborate to fix it and before it together. I hope so, although I will say I'veseen counter examples to that about a hundred of em, maybe in this pace aswell, where people just fight picker n go their own way, which kind of bringsme to like another question: Do you care if somebody copies your contract,redaploys it and create their their own Um Panvala with you know, hookers andblackjack is that is that something that you'reeven concerned about Um, like H, like it seems to me that the the value thatis in your system is the value of the people that are participating in yoursystem. Fragmenting that value is not good for anybody, but other peoplecould maybe not see it that way. So we could have a parody driven Panvala. Weget Abba Um a you know. The theory foundation createstheir own kind of Panbala and then consensus is got theres and thensuddenly, who knows very sin, can see what you're doing and go ye we're goingto use that too and integrated into our products, weten D and marketed toenterprise customers. How do you feel about that potential, and are you evenconcerned about that's a good question? So, on the one hand, for the code, Iencourage people to copet the code and do whatever they want with it. For thebrand like, I encourage people to not copy the PIN Balo brand like if youwant to do something similar come up with your own uh, but when it comes tovarious systems competing for particularly what safe enough to usewhen it comes to smart contracts, I think for people to decide to compete ratherthan to cooporate. I think those people just don't understand the world that welive in now. They don't understand what tokens are, what they're for what theydo in this ecosystem, far more valuesgenerated by cooperating than it is by computer. You can compete if you want,but I think you're going to end up being a lot more successful AF. Youfind all the people who want to cooperate with you and find a way tocooperate under the same banner. That's the principle that Panvalis built onthe t e idea that if we get enough cooperation happening for our grants,in particular that that's H, gating all that to happen under onebanner is what makes the system more and more useful. I think that's truefor issuing the marks as well, and if people decide to do it separately, morepower to them, but at the end of the day, I've been trying to find everysingle person in the SECO system, who wants to have anything to do with anysort of system like this and finding away to have them be a part of it,because the more people we get to work together to make this happen, the moreuseful the system is. If people want to go, laugh and build something in thatComputewith, I wishd Tan. The Best of luck like that answer because reinforceswhat you're saying, but also gives them the ultimate freedom to do it basicallymad the argument of Hay just plynice. It's going Ta Work Um, so I I wholethat's the whole concept of this state. I mean it's like each of these tokens is supposed to besome type of coordinate coordination tool for people who are interested inwhatever the hell that token hoose, for this is finding out what I guess, signaling.What smart contract security is, and then you can use this as a tool to todo that, and so it should be useful to anyone. WHO's interested is martcontract security and the same thing for all tokens. It's just I som most ofthe togens that are going to fail. Don't have a clear message on what issupposed to be useful for so what you're coordinating around and theunderlying idea of Ay blocking system is the network, not the actual Blotcangand that's associated with the people who were involved with using whateverassets that blotching tracks? That's interesting to me, the Weit youphrase at because some mis taking early...

...on, but I just decided itwas, probablynot the timn. Ask that question. I guess the time is now Um. Do you seePenvali branching outside of just certifying APPs DAX, because it seems to me that this kind of mark is kind of Um. You know, scheme of verifyinginformation could be categorized and Um. It has applications that are waybroader than simply you know. Smart Contract auditing oryou centralize application, Oni or you know, Um y. It just seems to me like this isthis is something that could apply to any sort of class of tokanizable asset as well Um. Anythingthat could be basically hashed and stored in a blockchain could also havesome sort of certification mark associated with it. Do you see a marketplace or no? I Guess Market Planes Wend me the word Um, do you see branchingdifferent versions of Penbala or maybe extending Pinballa two operate outside of the scope of you know: Smart Contract Aditi. So that's a very good question thoughta lot about this. I I think in particular both of the TCENES that andall it does are things that can be expanded, whether it comes to issuing amark for things that are safe enough to use for smart contracts in particular,if we get really good at doing that, there's no reason for us to not getreally good at other kinds of certifications when it comes to issuinggrants for things that people want to fund or whatever mission that they'veorganized around that's something where we started with a small category ofthenes that we're trying to fund we're trying to make a thereum safer. But ifwe get good at that, the more cooperation we can coorinate under onebanner, the more useful our ASISTEM's going to be so there's no reason tostop there. If this system ends up being successful, I think we're goingto look back at this time. As the time when security started to really level up inour space and if it gain end up growing beyond that, then maybe it's when wereally started to learn how to cooperate. When we started to figureout how to get all the things we wanted to do together, Dan Uh, maybe we lookback on this time as the time that the ocean started to slow their rise. Iknow a lot of people have heard that thing before, but maybe now it'sactually troop, like as much cooperation as wo can get done underone banner, the better we're starting with making a therem safer, but if thestcene actually works like there's, really no limit, so what we can dotogether as society reallthere's, the the systems that we've built to getcooperation then can only get so much done and a lot of them aren't workingreally well right. Now we have governments whereif. You canget fifty one percent of the people to agree that something should be done.Maybe that thing happens. If nots, it's really hard to coordinate, you havenone profits where somebody who isn't skimming too much oft of the donations.Besides that they can get your funds on the door and spend it on what youwanted to do, then, then it happens, but there's so many other things thatwe want to do that. We're willing to contribute to that. We just can't findthe way to get everybody on the same page, decide who spends what for Watdecide what gets spent on what I think. If we build effective systems, we canradically increase the amount of cooperation that happens, Os a societyan absolutely but is ooussing on the mark. For a minute I mean this canapply this. Just the mark itself can apply to things it don't. So, let'sjust give a wacky use case. That is probably not really gon to bereasonable any time in in the nearest future, but I cound totally seesomething a system like this for meat certification. You know foodproduct certification of the you know. Is this? U Sd a great equality beef?Well, right now we trust a particular organization called the USDA to goaround and do the inspections and make sure that things are adhering to thequality standards. Thata that are M, that are there, there's no reason whythat needs to be a government organization if we could decentralizethis and there's consequences and reputation surrounding soeity auditingparticular materials in the real world as well Um, and to me, I really like the securityplay that you're doing, because it is an extremely adversarial, um environment, Um, meaning that Um you'rethe contracts that you certify will be put to the test Um- and this also is agood you nocic record keeper, of how things are going and a good measuringstick for how the community is leveling up in security as well Um. It's a goodway to test this. This sort of model that you've built, but is also a goodway of kind of measuring the validity of a group- think auditability, Um andcertification,...

...as well as a measuring stick for howwell the Secur Secuity Communityis Kindo doing on a whole, so it itprovides some side services as well. That I really like yeah, you have to E.I think you have to be careful wittrying to use this, but it shouldn'tbe Panvala's job to try and make this system work outside of the scope ofwhat they're trying to do. It should show how well this system works in themicrocommunity that is spart contract security. Then people can refer to itwith that metric of efficiency to see if thetcould be used elsewhere. It shouldn't be. This system becomes the way thepanvall an network itself becomes the way in which we assess e validity ofall things. It's no stick to this particular usecase, because that's thenetwork that you're trying to build the people associated with smart contractsecurity to busing this token and those who would like to do something similarshould copy the code and do it elsewhere for that community ormicrocommunity or whatever it is, were government. We had Glnwhilon lastepisode to talke about radical markets, and a lot of the market athe proposes,will work for a lot. Could partitiunally work for a lot of things,but it's not one market to rule them all. It's! It's it's the it's themechanism design associated with he market that makes that particularcommunity Operat and interacted each other appropriately. I I definitely agree that having onesystem to do everything is bad. I I think H. separate systems, especiallylike really competing systems, is really healthy, but I I do hope thatthe Penvoli community does decide that expanding as their ability to cooperateincreases is a good idea. The getting more done like trying to organize a newgroup of people in a new way to get some other kind of thing done is a lotharder than using the organized people that you've already brought together toaccomplish the next task in the next task in the next pass. I think I thinktrying to organize everybody under one banner is a bad idea, and I don't wantthat tha happens, but I do think that expanding is healthy yeah. I guessappropriate, x expansion. You know what I mean not like. You know, you're goingto start assessing o UST avility you meet from smart contracts, like, Idon't think. That's the the avenue in which you see yourself going. Maybethere's some weird emergent avenue that happens far off inthe distance wher. This becomes superefficient, but for ight, that'snot the immediate go to right. It could be m the security layers on top of thesmart contracts for ducentralize applications. You can start assessingthose types of things and Jn the token to do that. That makes sense right andthat that's the aspansion that you see overtime, that's definitely more theway I see it. If we get to meet, then this has been wildly successful at you. Be Your motto here, its a O,your mote, Yor many many many many years out, um but yeah. I think I thinkH. I think this is a test case is what I was trying to get at and that it'sthe perfect testcase, because it's so advessarial, Um and h. You know it's it's a good way toyou know people need to have this happen. They need to have their theircontracts. You know audited. They need this kind of ability to knowwhat is good and what is not good when from a consumer standpoint. So it's areally good early, testcase ecause. It's an adversarial market, there's asubtivization models built in everything that people are doing m,there's skin in the game on all sides, M and M. It's a good way to know ifyour system is optimal or not and to optimize it before it gets to the caseof U S D, a m! You know what I mean like it's, it's, it's a really goodearly start, so I go ahead. I agree with that and that's really. Whyencourage everyone who's like moderately interested in, what's goingon with the system to come, be a part of this community like when, when wesaw that ICOS were a thene that started to work with heavy quotes on work.There was this huge boom in ICOS, lots of people started doing them and theythey worked for a really long time, maybe not so much anymore, but therewas a boom and I think if Anballa works like if we actually achieve the thingthat we set out to do. I think the next boom in our community is going to bepeople who, just like rent and repeat on the penva model over and over inOvercet, and I I don't think that's a bad thing like it's competition, butit's it's a healthy competition and if that's what you see for yourself asbeing one of the next kinds of systems that got built, you should be a part ofthis first system learn how it works and go create more. Have you worked with with other othercompanies or other projects trying to like flesh out how token curatedmarkets work? Yeah we've been, we've been talking, Ovarious teams in the ecosystem, talking...

...heavily to the teams that built thefirst TCR, the Ad Chaine rendistry talking to teams who are doing otherworking security, etcetera. I think there's a lot of room for cooperationand H, making sure that th information from all the experiments that peopleare doing and up getting spread as far and wite there's it's so hard to get toa point where we know how to build systems at work, and it's really frompeople sharing. What they've learned. So far, making sure that thatinformation spreads far and wide that, let is all be able to do better worktogether and at the end of the day, to me, that's what it's really about. It'snone about like having the biggest token sale, making the most money likea something. That's fundamentally changed in society with theintroduction of this new technology, and we should all be trying to find outhow to harness that use it productively and prevent the bad things that itcould create from actually happening, and for us to achieve that we reallyhave to work together. So I we have to wrap up here on a second,but I notice something while going through your material again, um that wehaven't really touched on quite yet, and that's the rating system Um andthere's ceveral layers to this. What are the criteria for meeting thisrating system? What O Goead so for the rating system?That's Perly, designed on the Michlan Star Model. Where you can you can'tlike start off getting three Mishon stars, you can't start off gettingthree Penn bolomers, but the idea is that you earn your way up once you'veproven that you've met the bar for one pe Balmark, then you can apply and tryto get your second Penn Ballamarica when you've demonstrated that yourcontracts of h that you use security practices thatare so much better than most of the ones that have one work that youdeserve a second mark to set yourself aside, simarly for a third mark, theidea F, there is just to make sure that the ANVALIMERC itself doesn't becomelike uh, the the stealing for security we wantpeople to. We want to encourage people to go above and beyond what other teamshave done, so we're continually making progress and what's secure and what'snot h from day one there's really only going to be a registery for the firstmark. It's really up to the community to decide when to create that secondregistry in that third registry to add more marks to the system, but that'sthe general idea. We don't. We want the community to know from day and one thatit's not about setting one bar and then making like hiding all the better work that peopleare doing when it comes to things like formal verification or BA anything thatgoes above and beyond the minimum standards that people are going to setas far as particular criteria for earning a work. There are no particularcriteria, basically thesame sort of thin asAmicialinstar. It's not you have to check your bucx X, Yand Z, to get acertain level. It's that the coken holders themselves have an idea of whatthe next level is and they're deciding. Whether or not you reach that nextlevel. It's very subjective and thats idea. I think some JACTI systems can be veryuseful. Governing them is very difficult, but I think that's whatwe're going to figure out how to do as a community, so Bernard Mulle, MullerMller, am sorry at Pettirt Out, N Ela, Berhadn, melhe's, O, actually, the onewho recommend we speak to you and look into your project. Um H. He he doesmythrel Um, and so I kind of assumed that there was some sort of linkingbetween the consensus project, Minthrol and Panfoo, but it sounds like you'rebuilding, something that doesn't care about tools doesn't care aboutmethodology. He cares about results in sentiment surrounding those results, Umfrom a social perspectutive, and I think that's really interesting, butgiving that tooling is such an issue. Do you see integration of the PENBALAsystem into your deployment mechanisms for smart contracts or deploments ingeneral? Just for for you know, can you can you verify that this contract is actually avetted contract with just a copy of it, for instance, and does that mark carryover? So I definitely think that anybody whoisn't using who anyone who isn't using metral today?That's writing. STORMART contracts is making a mistake. It is really the mostuseful tool for identifying so many common mistakes that people make whenthey'r ritnings to more contracts and just giving you warnings. So you canfix those even before it gets to an auditor. That's just a core part of thedevelopint lifecycl force more contracts when you've done that andwhen you've Rin your smart contracts, it passes all the mythral checks, thenyou go and you get a knodid done from a team that specializes in security onceyou've Goen your odit done. The next step that you take. is you go to earn apen balimark, so you can demonstrate to the public that you've met a broad barfor whats, safe enough tots. I think...

...the real integration between METHRO andPENBALA comes at the level of the counsel, that's issuing recommendations.I think there's going to be no counsel that gives recommendations to contractsthat have clear errors being reported by Mitheral, like it's so easy to runagainst your contract system that I think, every contract that appis forpennball market's GOIN TA be run under mythrol to see what gets output there. But I it is pvalas a system, that's a veryseparate for from things that can be automated and while t e focuses onthings that can't be atomat things that are more subjective, thengs thatrequire human reasoning to determine web safe enough to use and what's notand that's that's where the focus is, but for things that can be detected inan automated way. Those humans are Goin to Ityin those tools to make sure thatthe recommendations are making our sound awesome. I think that's great er towrap this up. Um Begging, Oron for coming on the showand and talking about Enhala in the space as a whole. I think it wasincredible Usal for me, andother Ford, to see seeing all o this Li come tolife. Even my dog is parking in the background is excited about it. Yeh thanks for having E, it's beengreat for anybody, who's interested in being a part of this community, as wefigure out how to govern this mark. How to govern these grants, encourage youto join our telegram channel. You can find it on the penbale website ofPendala ot com and really just start participating in these experiments.Thot we're running together. Our penvalamarkdemo is something that thepublic can participate in it'll avlreay happened by the time this episode airs,but we went your feedback on how it went. What Tou be better, how what howwe should govern a community that sho would want to be a part of and fromthere I encourage you to learn how to actually replicate what we're building.So we can build a more communities. A Tha can cooperate more effectively, aastic love, it love it love. It can'twait to see how this plays out in reality sounds very exciting and I lookmore poor, tohearing Erdemo, so it' be great audience. Excess H for those thatenjoy this go check him out, give them feedback reach out to them. I knowevery project that comes on shows like this Lon people actually reach out andtalk to them mean most entire community feels that way about everything. So, ifyou like this subscribe, quick, the like button share. Your friends tellyour dog, tell your wife, everybody and how can people? How could people findPendala, so the website has PENNEDALLA DOT COM,we're active, onpwitter or TU. Her name is anbalamark. Please followd us there,those a really the best avenues for Mary I'll, be directed to the telegramchannel. Where you can ask this questions any time any day we want youto participate. We want to Uild a system that you want to be apart. AWSOE THANKSG.

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