Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 29 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #29: Universal Logins - Alex van de Sande

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Alex va de Sande is a UX designer and developer for the Ethereum foundation who has come up with a new, clean way to provide universal login capability to any decentralized application. Using a combination of standards such as ERC725 identity contracts and his proposed ERC1077 and ERC1078, he has created a way to login across any application using a single login mechanism. We go over his system, his views on the challenges behind adoption that UX can solve, and the future of DApps as they begin implementing standards such as universal logins.

Links https://universallogin.io/ https://twitter.com/avsa https://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/blob/master/EIPS/eip-1078.mdhttps://github.com/ethereum/EIPs/blob/master/EIPS/eip-1077.md

Now, injrywork welcome to hashing it out APO CASP forretalk to the tech, innovators, behind blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds toget at why and how peoplebuild this technology, the problems they face along the way ome listeningand learn from the best in the business. You can join their rank der on episode, N, twenty nine ofhashing it out. As always on here with my cohost calling Cuche, say hello,calling hello, Callin Nice, an today's guest. We have Alex benescent from Heisa UX designer for the Atherian Foundation. Many of you already knowwho he is, but we want to talk to him about universal logans and space ingeneral, so welcomed a show. Don't you give Um our audience a Quik, quick introductionas to like who you are how you got introduced to the etherum space andwhat you work on currently eicurry. I callin thinks for letting mebe in the show. I've been on the PAC for a while. Now I've been working withdefundation since two thousand and fourteen. So there was before thit you network launched, butafter the Presale- and I I I'm pretty sure I wa I- I amone of the first designers- An I think it was one of th, one of the firstemployees in the L, People Tho be employed and celaryed in the thefoundation. So I've been here for a while and I'm always been focussed on how. How can wemake this whole iteven thing less complicated and more simple for andeither even if that means it gets more complicated for forthe engineers andthat's what I've been doing for for some time. Ato. That sounds definitely like you x,decider. What engineer will make it work,whatever the end user? I actually agree like it's. It's a tough taunting taskto try and make the these very complicated systems understandable topeople who might not need to know all the gready details that they currentlyhave to. So my houses off to you, that's a very diffifult difficult hasto take on Wel also. I am also t for of developer.So I I I am Veryke a skepical of designers who can't code because notbecause I not tha think everyone needs a cold because I think you need to atleast understand, what's what's happening under the hood, so you arenot that guy that just thing oinerwi solve it right. I think. That's! That'sa very that'ICTY, a common thing where, where we're both both desiners andengineers, Li e theinguer willget, it wo'll, build this thing and then thedesigner will just throw a little like cod of uxpaint onit and it would be easy to use and in the other hand, the singers who don'tunderstand N, like the code, underleat can be th the sort of people who I'mgoing to just build a solution, and it's like theowld magically make itwork, and I don't care about real world imitation. Ut even need to be somehowabridged between those two words. What's difficult about that that thatkind of Tis this whole space Um, is drastically different than howpeople have grown in tuition when using the Internet, which means that as a UXerciter, you have to then deliver deliver applications or use cases tothem that give them the ease of use and convenience that they're t they'reassociaed with, while also providing security implications, of holding yourOw keys being responsible for your own information and data, and I kind ofabstract way a lot of the difficulties associated with like using blockin inprostructure. Right now, it's, in my opinion, it's a as a UX person. This isthe most difficult space to be in, but also might be quite l, Ke the mostexciting because you're, enabling a lot of people really new ways ofinteracting with other people and taking I taking control over their ownlives again, but it's just incredib difficult. Have you what you're GONGTAWH? What's been your experience on that? I think I agree with you. I think it'sexexciting, because there's a lot of work to be done right and I think in inother areas. It's sort of Comein, I mean if, if you come in t like a webdeveloper now and ant to build like a Mulfosol at work and it's not waxingWeitand, you sort of know all the...

...places where people have been right. Athat's that's how the flow! That's where you starve! That's the best loginscenaro! That's the best there there there's a ton of research on how theymake the best sign up screen o the user is sign up easily right now and I think in in blockchain the botching is sortof the opposite place where everyone started starting at the basics likeeveryone starting at okay. Let's, let's suppose that every user is a singleprivate key and that's that's my user, and then you start questioning ohwaitwait what s! What does that mean? What what e signing up Meing? What is onboarding men? And then you have to recreate a lot of those those tats, andI think it's an interesting challenge and it's and it's fun, I'm very happythat I', I I am in this bath. What's more to that, is that you? Actually,this technology is built on public and private cucryptography, which which hasa lot to do with signing on to things or authenticating yourself for accessto things, which means that we can then improve further on previous ways ofdoing things outside of just a simple using Im, a passroad which everyone isS. it's very easy to do. There's a lot of conveniences of having a passpordbut like having public and private roupcrotiograpy baked in at thefoundational layer, allows you to expand on that and make things muchmuch more secure or even or even easier in some cases, and I think we'll getinto that when we're going into like universal long ands, but like what w? How do you feel about that? I weally believe that what weare doing is sort of going making a very wround way of trying toreinvent a bunch of like we are sort of rinventing a lot of the technology inthe web, because we, we really believe that it can be done much better and amuch more secure way and we want to to and- and I think like by the end thatwe end up- Rin vent in the will well have a system that is more secure than what Yeu have rightnow, but it can be, but it can be as easy or even easier and more utherfriendly than what we have right now right. I really believe that we havethe apportanity, because I really think that the Li, the things we're doing arenot just because, oh, we like we want to blockthing things or bloxing needsto be more complicated. Oh, let's do private private key, because everyoneis a criminal when we don't want like the government to firenot. I reallythink that if, if you were einventing the web right out, you go back to toDeniniogobai to the seventies, and I would I I would. I would bet that athose weremissing pieces back down right. Those are no, you needyou should be usingpublic keepige topic. chrotography things the beginning, you should betraining, you should be thinking about how your users are secure. You shouldbe thinking about. How do we keep like our data private? How do you avoidliving or digital trails everywhere? How do we avoid getting OWR informationbeing just gathered and owned by a single huge company right, because I Ithink that is the right way of Doingit of building a common infrastructor. Theend we'll have a better web for it absolutely, but the problem back then,was a lot of these things that we're doing now they weren't really feasible back then,meaning that there was a lot of first off therew's, a lot of innovation thathappene between now and then could you imagine if we' built a you know a lotof our Um hashing on N D, five. You know N to that point if you', ever speakingto any gray hairs, sometimes like I've actually had cove a several time to hae conversations with some greyhair developers who are still kind of stuckin the computing power of the time and who I said, yeah, I just empty five,all these creen chostifs, because it was really easy and quick, and I didn'treally need to have share it anywhere and Theye like mdfive, I'm like yeah go.I know it's insecure, they go no, it's just too expensive. It cousts. So muchcomputing, Partom, Toino e Fin Lie D. It's like two thousand and fifteenethat's, not the same thing. We can't so like a lot of these. Thesecryptography techniques used to be a little more expensive than they evenare, are now well they're the same cost, but computing power has got. U. Ourresources are more available were able to do new things, and to that pointlike I feel like to get back on the UX train, because I really want to makethis comment. Does anybody seem you guy as much slow comvalley at all 'cause there's this there's a moreepisode where the pidepiper develops their APP and they relas into the worldand they onla theex. They usetheir...

...testing that they do yeah Y, onlyshared it with oher developer, so he other pers like wow. This is amazing,and so they' got positive feedback from a very narrow focus group and when theyrelisened to the wild to the rest of the world th, nobody could anunderstand it. The only one could understand it were developers and feellike that's exactly the problem we're facing right now and the Bariintoadoption is the user understanding what it's adopting and why- and that isdefinitely useer experience problem. So you have one of the more interestingareas in the space of my opinion, I tollye I have. I remember watching thatAtwe as it air and I was identiifind so much of it. I Wa like this is this ismy work because there's theres pecific sem, I found very, very telling both ofPhilipon valley and or industry, where the deee is this product a as o Sai andthey they were running like a user testing and the users during theibility group T T y they're not getting it and then the Nain developer justjumps into the room, and then they the he starts, giving a one hour lecture onon the basis of everything and by the end of it. After, like two hourstalking developers, everyone eer excited about it, and I I I connect very deeply with thatsensation, because I I have been there. I've been in situations where I I getin Ou room where people have no idea what I'm about to talk about, and thenI I need to give like a forty minute lecture on. Why blochaniss, why it'sfun white school and then in the end, I ended up with her five minutes themover e, very complicated air, and then everyone was excited right and I thinkthat's exactly the moment we are on where we are like, where we are very excited about it. But it'ssuch an out of like out their experience that nobody else gets it yeah and feel like the real challenge.Isn't going to be that see the top twenty percent are probably going todrive the adoption for the last eighty percent, but we're only even reachingout o top one percent right now and if we culd communicate that it's Ou twentypercent within five minutes, then e top Eighti Percevepr, the lower eightypercent, il probably accept whatever experience you give them as being thebest because they listen to the twenty percent. You drive innivation theearlie doptors, whatever you want to call them, but the problem is eventhough that twenty percent capture isn't there yet and and weare. I it'sstruggling it's difficult for me because I talk to other engineers whoaren't in Blockchain, and I just kindof e roll their eyes and I still feel likeI'm fighting this like cryptocurrency bit coin. You know lvw Kindof like Oh,I not loveyw, but his libretarian sort of like like freemark rule andeverything well destroy the banks and all this kind of stuff, and they don'tunderstand t it there's a whole another innovation here that we are leveragingwith Blotchin um through smart contracts and through decentriedstorage mechanisms such as I pfs or storage, or what have you um? That will enable a new way of buildingthings, a new paradime and they don't understand the advantage to that. Sothey look at things an they go. Lwhy. Am I going to give up my mainframesystem when you know the response time on a theoryum is fourteen seconds perblock with a limit on how how much gas could be consumed. I can't get thetransactional throughput that I need there's only five hundred Ktransactions I could get through per per day I saiperde ye per day. So it'slike. That's that's not enough, but I'm like Okhon there's a whole other there'.Here's there's an innovation sign of things here. You Ned dump money intoresearching this stuff. The problem is typically a presentation issue, so I'mreally excited for your work and I hope that you could condense even this fiveminutes into less than ten seconds, so that people can just instantly get itEI have I have another part of that? That's that's! Maybe we're too early for this type ofthing, like is the tech ready for us to be focusing so much time and effortinto designing for the in user when, when Li e, I think, realisticallyspeaking with the end user, when we have massive adoption is going to beintervacing with something that's layers on top of what we have now andthe UX design is what who is? Who is it actually for?Should it be for an end user or should it be for developers who are buildingthe layers? On top of the like the infrastructure we're building? Now, okay, I'm goint to go. Go Back tosometing Collin D says because I want to answer that question is a greatquestion, but let's go back to t e Tomin conse before hurry, and I thinkwhen, when, when I'm trying to convey to other people, why we ded that whereI am trying to avoid thi whole, Oh, it's libertaring from orcating andtrying to get something intiversial. I...

...love the example of Facebook, becausefaithebook has last last over bit on active users and I think at some pointthey were nearing juebillon active users, a I mean two billion people. If,if you get every social security number that youhave in the? U S, if you add it to every the accumulent of the socialsecurity number in Brazil and probably in the whole South America, you en,then you add every single identity system, digital identiy system in theEuropean Union. You will not get to two billion people rit! That's how manyusers, facebook has information rig now and it'. Not only that for a lot ofpeople, especially like developing countries. FAITHBOOK is the de Internetright Pacemok is be entrance for the Internet for a lot of those people h.That is alsotheys also the way they have access to all the freedom, theInternet, giveus right, freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom ofCormer, commerce, freedom of just being able to talk about politics or sellstuff with other people, and just talking about like your little guy, whosets up an Istegram shop. Every one of those people have their whole identityand digital life tied to a single company, and that single company ismajor in control by one single person, and it's crazy that, like we have thisone person that, if they sow eside, can just turn the key, and you know what Ithink all of Oul, this whole category of action that people were doing it's. I don't want them in my platform rightand that's that's obviously now how how we can move together forward with theInternet. If you want the ITER have to Bild this global phenomenon, whereeveryone has access and freedom and ACS information, etcetera, wecer. Now I itcannot work if it's just controled by like one single mark lookerbord, and soI think you should get back to cory's question, but this this kind of bringssomething up that that really to me is something we have to communicate. Isthat we've been designing systems wrongly for identity, meaning that we haven't been buildingour privacy with the idea that somebody could fialy a central users or or evenas a central user violat its end user's trust, and so, since we've beendesigning systems with this trusted element F of centralization and likeyeah, we give our information a facebook facebooks got it. We give ourinformation. Equifax equifacts will never get breached, that's crazy andthen they wand up getting breached or they wind up getting manipulated insome way or they wind up selling their DA selling Gata to people that we don'tfeel are using that data in a use idea, OSwi, Pli political elections and so we're not building our infrastructureof identity and information related to aperson's independent identity. In a way that will facilitate long term. You know benefits to society andeventually everything will get Harre. So if we built things in a hack prooway, I don't know call it hatproof, but with the idea that you're putting yourinformation out there and you are responsible for protecting yourinformation, then the antact vector is you and then you must be accountable.So I feel, like this whole narrative of like Cetralization Verde Centralization,it's very difficult to explain. I love the fact that Youse Fasebook B'cause- Iactually use that regularly myself but H. it's all about how we'rearchitecting things and people don't understand that. There's another wayand that's what I feel like I'm trying to fight is: If there's another whayGuye, there's another way to do this and they cin US still see it. Thisfantasy girl, nobodyill put all their information on the block. Chein, it'spublicl there's another way to do it since private Lik E. I don't know itjust feels to me, like people, don't accept that there is another way yetand communicating that stoll difficult yeah, and even even if you start withthe assumption that look, it's h, people will never take care of theirown private key people are, are not canable of that, but we can start withthe function of- let's not trust the central party. For that right. There isth. There are intervadialiteps in between every old information is mark,Lokerberg personal computer to everyone, Isan expert in Cryptography, and theythey manage it, and I think the interesting theing is that w fort offaithbook starts at their nd and then they are like. Oh no but weare doing itin more security, you're, adding more R ver years. Make sure that your lady issafe and we are starting in the other,...

...an another end where everyone isresponsible for their own private data and then weare trying to make it alittle ttle bit more easier. A little bit more accessible, it'll, be moreuniversal and adding schemes where Oh you're you're trusting this party. Buthere's here the vectors of the trust you trust them to do thiss, but notthat that's the limit on their trust. You can remove that trust at any pointand we are at every step of the way we are we're weare trying to go slowly andweare we're sort of going e same diraction, but I think, but I thinkorther in or way will get there eventually. I think it's possible for us to startwith the blotching, his cryptal crazy word and get to a place where it'suniversally accessible. I think it's more believable than believe thatfaithbook will just become Super Sa supersecure and will bealways be able to trust mare, Cuckerberg yeah. That makes sense a MI. I feellike back or going back to my question. That is the reason for ou X. design atthe stage is basically making ah key management, something that's that's areasonable thing to do for the Enduzer, because if we start where at the layerwhere everyone needs to secure their own things and because people aren'tever going to all become criptography experts, there may be a general gain inunderstanding and knowledge ov across the board. But it's not feasible to believe everyone'sgoing to come an expert and have full understanding. So the UX design, thethe types of things of interfacing with private keys and the spacelairprastructure, is important because it allows people tha ere allows us tocome up with solutions that work in a secure manner for the everyday user. Soas we keep building things, it's EA, it's easy to onbord them is that I Ifeel like that's that's why you exercine at this stage is important. Isthere anything else that I may have missed, or s that completely offbace ye? I think that here's a Fak in right, we, we, we alsoalways think him l, like the average th. I believe that there is this myth ofthe average user. Rit, be people believe that there is the averageoither elfewhere tet is perfectly calculated by your grandmother andwhenever we reach Your Grandmother, we've reached everyone, and I don'tthink it's that that's the right way. T of doing it,because I think UX designed is important since the beginning. I thinkit's important on every step of the way is just we are slowly expanding who theusers are. At some point, I, like one of my one of the first things I did andwhen it Tu was launch. I was helping to the to the website and just in Stolland run ith, heren n run and old. You you had to ru, you had tosol like a itwas very CONPI, had to open a common line and type five ten ten line of gold,and I pushe them and helped am to reduce that to one or two lines:infllation that is Youxlime, bytroducing tenten, then ten lines inthe common line too tro that's sort of your design, because there are users I mean not. Everyone is an equaldeveloper. There are people who can open the command line and copypastestuff, but not necessarily can can PAC ten things and they bug every step ofthe way right. So we can start with Hak. There's Li huge developer and there'sthat guy who's, just starting is Curio, wants to open he's able to open, open te terminal. Okay, we're we're. We are done with this guy we've solved thatproblem now. Can I go to the next step where someone is ha tax, heavy enoughto be able to download a software and think up their chain and and tastsomething and they want to be able to get ther presaye wallet, ofte likeafter SB drive and save a backup elsewhere and then gess to an exchangewithout using the command line. Can we do that? Can we solve that yeah? We cansolve that, and I I was working on that and then we you go over like to thenext level. Oh, is that the kind of user that wouldn't stall firefox,that's the kind of user that would install a chrome extension and then Ithink at some point. We need to get to the kind of user that doesn't want toinstoll anything that donsn't want to download anything or T. not it's notit's not technical, capable of that, and I think you cannot expect to jumpDirecty that guy, if you haven't solved all the issues with, if you had haven'tsolved and learned from Al those other more advanced users who,as you exvine maders right, I don't think you exercise is just making itshiny and preety for, for your grandmother is also making sometimesjust making it so that someone who...

...wants to learn more about it. Heran canfollow uneasy to like a an eady to follow totario. That's part ofYouexnion so to relate a story that actually might like help condentedown abit at's. A really good point. I back in N N nine hundred and ninety nine,like two thousand two T ousand andthree. Something like that. I worked at aparticle accelerated facility, ind emport News Virginia, and this as like my first job as webdevelopment. In turn, and a lot of the scientists thererefused to do just the most basic things. It was strange. They didn'tthey did in label cookies. So every time I tried to do certain times ofrederects, it would fail the application for them. Some of Hem insisted on using link as abrowser, which I don't know if you know what that is, but it's a command linebrowser, so it had absolutely no graphical capability whatsoever and somy target audience for those for for for any application. I built there wasa moving target. So if I was building it for the science community, I had tomake it as basic as possible. These guys wanted literally nothing bearbones,just get it out there get it working simple forms as as basic as humanlypossible, but os building for the Taur staff. Then it's a totally differenttarget audience, and so I think what we're trying to identify hers. How canwe move that target audience? Put that Orriet audience for these decentraizedapplications into the hands of people who want to use them now and not worryabout the people who won't want to use them right now, but still broaden thatgradually until we get a good parodim going for anybody who wants to adopt itthat will take years, but I think it's Um. I think it's a an interestingproblem, so you know Coodas to you one of the things that H, you know, I think is- is key to a lot of this. IsI ability setraliz application last year for a customer and m one of thepain in the ask things to deal with? was that they didn't have? There was no good way to do log INS, soI basically had the hardcode or store some methodolic, some method of keepinga local copy of m of accounts and those accounts would have to have theirvallets in te folder on the decentralized application locally and yeah. The Ui was good for selectinghis accounts, but adding and removing those was kind of a pain in the buttand people didn't understand it, and it was very much barrier. So I wonder ifyou could talk a little more about how you're solving that problem withuniversal logans and talk about the EIP's behind it, hey so back and goin on Onton sory, and I thinkit's so important to think we talk about this average uter on the top likethe earlier octors, as if it's everyone is on a line and everyone is is from.Like I'm very smore too. I'm very do right and I think that's not a way toapproach it because the other people- and I'm pretty sure you met them likethere are people who are are like high hypartical physicits, who can whowork in a Partica filerator but will not be able to are not able to set uptheir own email account. We're not able to fell up our own AMERCA in lanageright and everyone is sort of like that, like you might be a cryptography atbird. That doesn't mean that you understand other areas, and evensomeone who who has like real problems like someone who's working m, maybesomeone is, is- is very good at working on on their field right. They have,they have far more problems. They have to worry about either if their pigs aregoin to die or not, they don't really want to have to deal with all thosethings and, and we we just want to be able to get them away for them to beable to fell their form product out there. It doesn't mean that theyare DOB,they probably have a lot more knowledge a we have no idea, it's just that theydon't have the Banddas to learn all thes thing stuff we just want to justwant to simplify and then so going back to universal agains. Oneof the things that I I ive spent the last year since I've done a lot ofthings in thenfoundation, but my main project on and off with doing all thoseFhel th, those yeers was missed, which is a browser which is like a wallet it.If you go to yo not or that's like the main Ling that there is, you donlow theWal, there is awful browser behind it and and we we have always been tryingto do how we can make the simplest simplest thing possible, but there'sthere is, there is a barrier there, which is the first thing they you need to do isdownload SOMSA right. You need donload...

...or browser. You need to donload men, anAcestention, maybe maybe youl need to donload a knife, one at need to Doload,comething and mot. People do not want to Dolod anything. They just want to goto a website and fin ot, and I really wanted to think about. How can we in a way figure ou solution where theon boardingis very easy, it's very simple and theser: doesn't it done n nor downloadanything? It doesn't need to write down with feet phrase or they don't need tobuy Eter, which is also like a huge problem right. I'm pretty sure that ifyou work iant like that, some of your clients probably ask you why. Why do Ineed to buy this stuff right? I I don't want to have to buy thi the Equippe Ocripto currency thing to to build your mydesn wise at well. In my current case, I did, I tend to use private a theory ofnetworks, but yeah that would be D that pretty much why thins private, atheorym networks is because they just want to prove to people that this isworth investing in so m, it's not going on the main net Um. If it were, theywould have to buy a bunch of e with us a floating target of cost compared tothe viad world, which still dominates our pricing structure so yeah. No, I definitely wouldlikewadid not have to pay or have the have them. Even aware of you know,what's in their Walet also. Another problem is that, likemost most people have multiple Moti Por vice right, so they have their iftheyhave ther efe from they have their laptop. They have desk top, and evenhow do you transfer your your account from one to the other? Is a complecatedthing, because we don't want people typein private keys, taking privaciesfrom one place and take it. Take into the other and and also the whole Manyeof private kids has the thing. I call the Cripto Paradox Lihe, because we aretelling people this privatelyi super important and you need to have a backup riht. You need to have a bakcup. So if you lose it, you lose all your money,but if you do too manybackups and Youl forget it and you put it in your GM, aaccount and your GMA with heck. If you put it a night cloud, if you put it onOntoo many: U S, b sticks it can lick and then your money e awfulof all lost. So we have this crazy thing where ye need to make just theright amount of copies right. You make too many of them. It's licked, youow Ou,Eludal, your money you make to few of them. You have a a some problem withthe revisiover, your money and the solution rang and pushing toother twaters. Is it's quite it's. Actually it's something new withsomething that 's been around for a while, but I'm just trying tostandardize. It is theidea at instead of keeping your funds and in privatecase you keep them on some sort of CRC praxy contract wh CIS. Basically, aMolcy contracta allow you to just it's a proxicontract that has colbehid it. The idea is that on every device you own every device that youareusing you keep a different private key. You don't backtem those war, the kyup!You keep the private key as bluried as you can in each device, safer, tcancadvice, and then he use those private keys not to keep an eater but just tosign message. And then you send that message to the praxy contract and theproxy contract has the capability of understanding. Oh thes, a fing messageasking me to do x, ior t and that's that's whyt. I and it's able to do it.We we're calling THOS DOLE SIGN MESSAGE: metal transactions, which is basicallya transaction that is a it's almost a second layer of a science relactionwhere Youare you're, just you're, not signing a transaction you're signing amessage telling a contract to do a transaction in your Beha. It's just ofeducation, T hit's, very hit's, very basic level. It is very it's very similar to havinga an outovation token, it's very similar to having every devife has anoersation token and you're just giving out otosation tokens, which is good,because it means that if you move one of the devices you didn't lose all yourmoney. You just l last Oneo relation token and the Longou still have thecapability of generating more more autidication tokens. You can createmore of them and there's not another cool thing of that is that the someone needs to act to deproy adulttransactions on change right, but that doesn't mean that he needs to be youwhat you can do if you take Tho those metiv actions to give it to anyoneliterally that have either and they can be the one paying that cost for you and because weare talking about a mart contract. One...

...thing that you can do is you can fortof Ref Fund that person with some other tokens and which comes back to youryour issue? where, like a lot of business, they don't they don't mindhaving cost associat what they're doing they don't want to buy eater becausethey have no idea how much ite will be costing, and this this this wholearchitectore would allow you to actually run whole AP, just y justusing die cause. What you can do is that you can keep die on your let's Sidie or any other token really in your account and then you're silig messagesand paying those messages with some other token which Isnot eter. So how does this get around the wholeneed to back up Utona keys problem, so, let's say have autherized account on my m on mycellphone. I have an AUTHORACC cemen on my laptop. have an narthrace account ofmy desktop and I have an ALTHRIZED CO in my tablet: Um. Okay, that's coolae'll, just assume theyre different accounts. I think, is that Crretyeah,okay, but um I lose my cellphone. What do I do so? The year here is that soththere are murtiple ways in whichyou can whe. You can set tat up right, so oneof the things you can do. I, if you have already five vices you could have you can have you can have a requirement to have atleast you or three devices be able to find nors Rathr have no device. So ifyou lose your cellphone, we you have access to your eped Ond, your deathtop.Let's say you can still use both of those to to add a new add a new deviceto it. Your your new phone and another thing you can do is you can still dobackup, but you can do a back up of keys that wer never line, so that isinstead of trying to back up the the every K in every device. WhatYo doings that you generate brand newkis, you print them or you like, putthem somewhere very safe. Its never line printed laminated, keep it in yourmother's house in our bank whatever, and then you can use that as a lastlast resource rocopri. So if you lose all your devices in in a fire, you canstill have access to do. Is GOIN TA still have h access to those recovery.CALDS, IT'S Y! You can recover your account th. The advantage is that,because those recover colds were never online in the first place, they werejust generated off lying. You were sort of thriaking, USI y Youre tricking users into doing likethe BA the Mo Mos sicy way, because what what I'm doing that? We can createa very easy flow for the user that, in the end they quit the Moticic, theycreate the paperbackup, which is a cold storage, and theydidn't need to realize any of those words or even know what th y, what theymean right. They didn't know that they were Crapyn. What if they they didn'tknow what a cold storage is, but still you are sort of tricking youtos into it. So one interesting thing that this kindof spos on my head is that since we're assuming a world withmultile devices for this, because you know a single device, this doesn'treally seem to carry as much weight. But if you have multiple devices, thisdoes seem to carry some weight at least to me at this point, maybeBebee Hoi can in to that IAG. I am assuming that we are moving to work notnot only of motipdevices or por a peruser ut per person, but that mostavices are single users. I we don't have the idea where we have a shordcomputer, where motiple people log in and lug out anymore, so th th. The ideathat POPs on my head is O K, let's assume a minimum number dvices ofsayfor. Maybe that's not reasonable, but Ithink you could share this hear what I'm saying. Maybe you could even sharewith he friends or something like that to make this happen, Um we could use share keys to sort ofencrypt and send out the recovery codes so that you don'tactually have to have a physical copy of the Recovery Code. You can justretrieve it through some sort of key sharing mechanism which will enable youto Um decrypt the actual recovery code at will in this way you don't have toacsl physically ever prun out anything. As long as you have a minimum number ofdevices which have a keyshare for your recovery code, you can recover thatrecovery go well. There's a there's. A lot of there's there's a whole slew ofprotocols, the procedures you could use for doing, authentication across the multipledevices Orr backups for that matter, but the Kiadikiida is that you'rehaving a proxy contract that actually holds things and it's it's almost apermissions layer for interacting with...

...anything on the block chain. That is, Ionly does things through various devices that have been authenticated,which is which is nice 'cause. You can do permissions around various deviceswhich have different security profiles, like my cell, one isn't as secure as myleisure things like that o know what I mean and s and that's and that'sreasonable for people, because different accounts have differentamounts of money in them which have a different amounts of risks which havedifference aemounts of security, and so there should be different permissionsaround the. I guess attestations those private keys can make also because we are always thinking likethat- The bay unit is is a private key. We are always trying to think in Qu interms of quick oprimatives right. So if you start saying about like all, we cando. asshow me show me our secret sharing way of sharing the key, so youneed to actually print the keys. You can send them around. That's that'snice and you can do that. But, more importantly, I is that all the logic isactually in a contract, so you don't need to like. You can actually buildmuch more complex recovery mechanisms where you don't need to to to resore tothose CIPOF rimatines. You can still use a key sharing method, but anotherthing you could do in theory where- and I think I believe, some some some fromt or Ical developing it like Statosn, an thing like that is you can set up atrusted friends cam where you they look. I trust that person that person thatperson and that person and and if those those perso th ththree people can cometogether and and agree they can recovermy device with the thedifference between that and just doing a secret sharing, wot them nat at any P,because if it's because it's it's just mart contractplogic at any point, you could intery add more trusted friends or remove themor even add things like saying. Look I m this is my account. This is myfamily members and my family members are only allowed to try to recoveraccess to my account, if my main, all my main keys, do not make anytransaction in in like a Fu year right, that's a more complex logic than youcannot do with cryptive primitive, but you can do with more contracts and itsort of makes sense in in Ordat. They were because Oh yeah,that's sort of how inheritance wors right if I die and if I don't touch mykeys for a whole year, then, like my my told family members, that I spik theyare able to come together and nd sort of have access to buy it. To my account-and I think it's important so it's important to remember thatwo're talking about contract project that can be upgraded that can becreated anew. Can that can be that anything that you want to to sortof an any recovery skin that you can you can just clat on top of it? Well, Imuff that I I worry about the security of smart contracts and when peoplestart implementing arbitrary code as the permissions layer for dealing withthings on dealing with their funds and Blockchan that those contracts could be have have severe security,vulnabilities, insideof them and L we're still not sure of all of thesecurity guarantees of the contract, language itself or the EM and so on andso forth, and that's that's a moving target as well. So Li e. This is theright way to handle. In my Pinion, the right way to handle Um having custodian of of of funds andthis type of technology, but it's also it's still very risky because you don'thave strong guarantees around the contracts themselves, but this bringsup something that raise your hand, there's Li three of ishere but 't tell me if you've used any functionality, any smart contract whichrequired turring, completeness anybody. I know I haven't I I mean I'vedone it for experiments, but it wound being too costly. So it's not evenworth it I mean: Do we really need recursion CPVILLTIES? Do we neet reallyneed infinite loops? We don't know A. I think it its tooearly to say whether or not we need it, because a lot of the usecaseis that aetering complete version, I feel tlike. That's that's another problem likethat's that something else you can totally do either in other ways or witha another evm, that's more risky and here's a risk associated with it. Butto me right now it seems like just a simple language like parrent, whichisn't turring, complete and formally verifiable would probably benefit thethe system. As it stands right now so letwe are, we are sort of like in bothof your requestions, your sort of questioning. Why do we have morecontracts at all right, or can we trust...

Mor contract all to to do the thingsthat they theyare? They want to do, and I I N I see where you're coming from,but I I have to agree. I think that we we want to be able and I'm not okaybout, doing need to incompete completey or not. But my point is: We do needrech. I do really think that a rich environment where you can create morecomplex logic is good, is interesting and is allow us to create a lot morething than you couldn't do before, or this whole UN the whole universalagainst the scheme that I I descried it's very hard to do. If you don't havea very a sophisticated, more contract clorgic that allows you to do to to thething and I'm not saying that every single user who write up their lonsmort contract right. That's not what I'm saying what I'm saying that we cancreate a system that allow expendability we can create Assystam.That say: Look! This is the basic system that all where the user hascontrol of their funds and they can create andther there, a couple ofextensible function. Where hey can say, look I want to have. I want to create akey that I'm giving it to. Let's say I A' I I'm taking this ski and giving toa subscription lagazine that I want and I'm outrising that key to do to take asx amount of Mo a perhaft IM. Using that other key I mean giving that ontotheotorization just play with criptokiries right that Khe can can cansell market to GE and an Brin mycripit. The only thing it cannot do is itcannot buy because would require an extra ky to confirm and you can createthose extra that extra logic and, of course, every time you add thatetalogic, you need to be careful that you you're not you're, not introducingyou bugs, but I think we can create a Bas, a baye system. There is a lot morecomplex that what we have right now with just pays cryptographic primitives,but it still is simple enough that we can audit it. We can. We can makeformer proofs around it to make sure thet safe this TISPI. This reminds me of a coupleof conversations I had O def con with grind plus and their last one mastly, a hardware device. Have you didyou? Did you talk with them or see them 'cause a lot of went their functionalin his basete on the lattes. One is what you what you're implementing anuniversal lagans- and I feel as though this is becoming Um kind of H. Push tothe forward wish the front of things. Wou Need to be worried about Y agret, plus it's a consensus spokecalled good plus, which is doing the energy and their last one is a harbor devicethat is doing permissions around key management. A and- and I ive mentionedthis because as multiple companies and people work on these types of problems,the ' they need to come together to come up with standard, so they can beused across. All of these different implementations Ye- that's that is sort of so the way Istarted doing this whole iniversal againt thing w, mostly because Istarted seeing I I sarted Seein, all those solutions imorgin in places- andI was just doing my thing where I trur gold peopleand I helped them with different projects and a lot of people hadbasically the same the Tingishou. Oh, I want to do this, but I don't want tohave either and I want to do this, but I want to have wotiful users and Iwould say, look you you can do a there there' a solution for this. You can dothis sign message. You can do a C recover and I just sign a message and you can pay.You can create your token and you can pay fees on your token, with the othertoken, all you needes ar layer, and then they would ask me Oh wait: how howdo they do that? Oh look status, hase, a great ISS recover thing that othertoken there they have. They have a way which Ta feel the OkenSelf, that other guy is doing a identity proxy that allows you toexpand, have motipokis and- and I would receive blank stairs because they werethey were like dude. I I just learn how to make a yourS. twenty Tokand, like Lm Tari. I you Canot, tell me that I need to likelearn how to make a distance, lise relayer at work, and then I e I look.There are a lot of very good solutions that people are working and they arenot compatible. So I really want to create standards for that and that'show how I end up writing to your seasabout. It ell standards are quitepowerful. I mean, I think I in my, in my personal opinion, the R C twentystandard was the catalast for the entire CRICDO cryptocurrency boom'cause. It lowered the Bary of intry...

...and allowed people to buildinfrastructure around trading these types of things because they all agreedon how to do it and you get a Sh. You get a CIO, you GETA shipling, buteverybody gets his shit going. Wand Wat what has potentially like negativeconsequences. It did a lot for the entire Space Ando, bring etentionmassive innovation in terms of how we do things and built a lot ofinfrastructure and it's all round. In my opinion, a single standard tose arebutmal. That's that's not at all accidentalright. That is sort of like the purple of Igian in the beginning was like alot of people wer. We forget that people were already doing shitcoinsbefore June. Came Cam came Roun Right, but they da that before in ord, for youto t to say lunch dodgecoiy, what you needed to do is neede to fork like BitCoin Cor, and then you needed to have your own minding infrastructure and oue needed to conflence minors, the in Exchangeit- and you remember those daysa bunch of people right. So, oh I want to create a new coin foreveryone in in Giand. Gwenland right, like Siacoin, was anair drop for everyone in like Fenland, O or or gleand, or something like that,and then it was hard because you needed to have your own. Your own wallet, YourOwn Mining, Solter, your mining thing and then andteny Le to solve like ptwpconnections and it een comes and just look. We are going to deal with thewhole infrastructure and you just build this new thing. On top I mean all youwant is just to be a te token. The nice part of it is that, like once have atoken you can use t wallet, Sport Socen, you can use any if youen exchange thesupports Oken and then the infrastractore is already there. I soexactly when you you sayt, but that that is sort oflie, the purpose of ithere and was to build that was to build. How can we we allow people to to sharethe infrastructure their building so that he can only reed to focal on whatwe can do is novel oninteresting. So, let's assume, let's go the happy path: You're UX designer UX design and maybeeven just like just socially design, so that people start using universallogans and proxy contracts. The way that Ou, you hope and expect them toand Yer se seven twenty five identity, but assume we go down the happy path.What do you think the consequences of that be? What will be your Shik oing? Okay, the question you're making iswhat doi think is the I the like. If everything I'm saying, gets popular andget adopted, what sort of bad outcomes I expect is that what you're askingyeah 'cause, I think everybody Kindo could have predicted Sheq INS and, likeI feel like Inthis, I kindof have an idea where this would go, but I don'tknow yet, and I'm kind of I I just want to see if you have anypredictions with regard to that. Do you have ay thoughts, so the whole idea is that I want tomake on boarding very, very, very eay right. The DAMORTA hey give to peopleis that you can like Y Y, you log inthe website and Ol. You need to do it iftype, the intename, you have an the the next queen. You will be seated a fewtokens and then he next creen youre already like clicking about on the AlouOting, interact with more contract and uses that open a you just receive forthat. So it means that in in like thirty seconds and and Trocho Clicks, basically you arewriting toactin with Mor confrort. So my idea is, I really want to make morecontractity and I would say that if, if I succeed on that, probably the first thing that wouldhappen, we we'll probably moliply a lot of bad dils, O Eoh go ahead, O else, I I wouldn't stay scalability that ibea problem o think that's parallol. We can go into that, but I think we'lprobably think like like a lot of people like using Pyramids Pyramids andand other like trading things and probably like what actually, what would be the thelower bbery twenty would be probably watet, where everyone can treat theirown wall, that everyone can create their own predictional arket. Everyonecan create their own dient, lihe exchange and probably W.When I see a lot of like bad itueand game on baditune products and thingsthat are Ilitet like Criptokidy, I think quiploca Generaton a whole new juration, F Games, which is nothing but just my anCel, stupid stuff right. I conceeded making it Cipociti even more popular,like CRIPO, Klactablate or even more...

...alowin te barrier. ENTR people get toget these things and traide them and in the process of doing that, you kind oflike create an ex gratial enzubrance around them, because people can do it, Valy, which then leads to a scaling issue,because cripticas broke the network at the time when, whenever big, because we never yo what if wouldhavebeen the block Chan thatwork basically becomes clag with everyone trying touse these things that it basically have no real utility and it for now, andthen it it. It kindof buttons out into usecases that have good utility, butonly operate under under locacities, and that's that's just the problem itgoing to Isolt ivisually. That could only be good for big one ponest. U, that kind of thing happens.The price goes up, so the market is supposed to balance itself out andthat's cool at all, but we still want to use the stuff, so I feel like thinLi ar two solutions. More things I cancera are going to be useful until he get some better scalingsolutions on the elayer one side Ye, then I've go lar, Tos, Gon ensential,you c you can use this technology with layer to technologies. ECAUSE thisisn't par. You know excluding each other. That's kind of a nice part aboutit. Also ithat is a sort of good problem tohave, because I would say an e hear the truth. There are a lot more peopleworking on callibility than people working on UX design and on board, andI think those are equally important because there's no point the wholepoint of I I think t the alternative is much worse becauseif you fix calability before it its on boarding well have a network that canhandle billions of transfaction but doesn't have a a hundred thousand yeases right, andI think that's that's even worse. What what's the point of having calibilit?If you can switch a million yeases I've been on Yuss, maybe an I would say thatk the opposite, where we we solve on boarding, before wit soscoabity. Idon't think that's going to happen, because there are alrady solutions tothat problem. Right now, riht you can do side change, you can do you can douh, you can do, and one of the things thatar interesting about the evital again solution is that you can actually havethe same address for your proxy identity. IMMOTIPLE WICH EEN network,so you can have you can you can use the same address inWinkerbe in in mainnet in your side chain and your profable authority fosubchain things like that, and you can sort of use the same identity in thesinglagain in all of thet, and that's really useful for thingslike classmachains and D. Even Cooler is that if we could kneelthis down really we create a general state channel toanother contract on another chain network entirely into asset transfer.That way pretty simply, and only have one system which maintains the sort oflike. Ah, that could be cool for an atomicswopsite. The type system. That's just easily managed B'cause right now, it'skind of a pay in the butt, in my opinion, but M, I don't know kindofthinking about that th. That is a good property of this for sure. Well, we're hitting about an hour now.There are any questions that we shouldhave asked you. We hope you hopedwe asked you that we didn't me around. ' Saying I think I I I think we have an IFE conversation,an O. I I don't know thereas anyparticular question that people y, I think we hat all the USAL questionwhere, where that goes, but then the obvious next part is: What's the nextsteps? What do you? What do you hope happens now that you c you've beengoing around? We saw you have the statusatpon you're at Avcon, you'vebeen going around trying to teach people about universal lagguns. Nowthat you have like kind of this minimavibal product of people toimplement them, how do we get it into people's hands?What do people need to do in order to start pushing this forward and makingit a real thing, but when forrfin o Ohefan some people, don't don't getclear W when they speak it on the first time universal agan is not. Onesolution is not like one way of doing it's, not one after you don't knowwhere everything goes through, that airlihe and and and there are othersolutions to that, but it' not that it's really just a common architecturahope a I'm hoping Olor people are adopted, and I yeah and I've been doingthat this whole tour. where I I went, Ripta lie, I went to Deavegone, I wentto disent lifefinance sunate I went to and- and I'm doing a lot a lot of that-and my hope is that I I really want to have some some players in the ticalsystem, use that and adopted. I think...

...that's going on that going on, becauseI I've been talking with a lot of of people in different companies. Somepeople, like statles or noises or smaller companies and they're all veryexcited about this idea of having a common standard where everyone can cancan share and and one of the things that they like the this idea, where yougo in into statues and then during the ownboaring process, tatus gives the USStyli iseay andthe next cting. That happend is that you go to lases, let'ssay, and you can use your status Utherlane an note. So it's almost if you were onboarded once in any APP you can you're ready onboarded on every onapand. Ithink that's something that excites a lot of people, because it really helpsh it lowliplies on morning effect. Ter might might do it so that actually,I know that we're coming to the end here and I shouldn't probably be askingmore questions but just kind of triggered something else in me thatI've dealt with a long time got. I brought up on the several times at backin two thousand and five I tried to develop something called Om, Olankarmadnat didn't pan out wrongtiming right idea. I I feel where you know yourreputation. Kind O went with you from sight to sight to sight, and so youdidn't have to fragment between, like your ebay rating and your Amazon ratingand you're, you know Web Forum X, Y Z rating Um and they all kindo kind of build acentralized way of managing that. What do you feel about reputation, Atieto your login? Do you feel, like those things, are something n and tracking,where your logins been used in the history of your Login Ke? How does thatintegrate into your vision? For this? There are two things there right. Ithink the first one is that I thing which is, I think you should ow. Ithink it's obvious for for anyone, who'll probablye sin to this poia Ige,which shoul onl our own, that a like, like your Ober Rating, should shouldnot be your should be. Your rady shall be your reputation as a driver shouldnot belong tobirs, not be our hober rating because it creates think you're right Li e y. If you havea good repuition driver, you should be able to go toanother driving network n n use your petationthere or your nterance company, or in insurance company or just wemove,wemove loking from fromoge right. Why? Why do you have to start? I new? If youwant to create, go to a woober compator, I think that's th t that's a wrowrongapproach, so I think it shouldn' belong to you and also, but in the other handI think that's something that the uiport Guy Isa really really reallylike spraying. T E word is that we should also avoid making it Onchang asmuch as possible. We should try to make a lot of those reputations should bevery careful te, especially if you 're talking about something that isn'nchanged forever, because like right now, what can be a good reputation can belike in ten years can be turned against deal somhow A. I think, theyre theare,great good examples, and things like. Oh youare you wear refugee. Once you escape your country and now you go back toyour country and things turn bad again. Then, suddenly you you ere in the thereis this universally accessible list of all F of vulnerable population rightbecause you belong to this religion. You live in a place and hensunelybecause you wear a refuge. He once and you had an Nhad rapitation onlinetoanly that become the two of oppression. Think we need to do. Weneed to be careful of that. Do you think Wene Ile Tust lip against thet. I don't think the problem with thelegislation. I think the problem is that bes very, very careful whateverinformation they put on chain and avoid putting personal information on chainat all costs, and I think that comes back to privacy right that coming backto having like I, if you can have it at a station, is it it's probably betterto have an offchain at the station. Lat just say: Look I have I've beencarrying this, the signature that I can share with other people than just tohave a central attestation things on the blockhin, but so just give people soggive people proof and notnecessarily put them on the Blotan. So that's that's one. One importantmessage: Tho people were thinking about rep own change, opptations, stolen e,Ive, een, Saing Oll legislate against what you can do, but legislate againstinforming users of what they are doing. That's kind of like something that Ithink will probably happen in the future. Now, because how would I know,as you know, Um article physicists, who can't even start my email, whether or not the information I'msubbitting is going on chain or whether...

...or not it's going in you know, let's Yu,say even a lay or two chain or whether or not it's it's. It's just go not becommitted in that way like how do I know this like? How would I be able todetermine that, and I don't feel like that.Actdivelopers will do that responsibly, especially since there's value in notdoing it responsibly. I think we need to, I think our go hereas like we weare technical writers, we are Yo, have a technical, podcast or gohere, is to educate developers and try to teach them how to do it responsibly.Other I who end up with legulation lite. I think it would be better for everyoneif, if a Thevelberere, simply responsible- and don't do things likethat, so that we don't need to end up having some sort of legislation forced upon by by peoplewho don't really understand awl the sublities of the system and ends upkilling good ideas among with the bad ones Y. Ah, I at to be the singlecynical one in the room, but I have now wear bites on my computer becausethere's a lot of assphalt developers out there and I think, there's alwaysgoing to be asshold developers who find a way to get something on chain whichis dirty and will try to either blackmail extort or you know, don'teven know how they would blackmail it, but like W, it's just likeresponsibility on the hands of developers. Developers not only evengood developers make mistakes. You know I feel like w werethat's something thatultimately will lead to legislation, whether or not we want it to, and Iagree with you Li a little legislation's better, but you know we need liability in the system. Inorder to you know take act. I can sort of ret you, but I I would say that thereason we are in this situation exactly because we have a bunch of informationin central databases at work, ONEC recollected by people and that everytime they use the loggin the something they don't care about, their owntheirwh, where the data is licked in and we are sort of like there is thisthis wave of legislation trying to come in with with developers. I'm not sayingthat all this alegilation's bad, I'm not like a radical libertarian. But mymy point is that there is. There are people who are frind to just. Let'sjust stop it on that front, but I think you can do it on the other fhond andsay look the main problem here is that users or like browsers or insecure? I is that we are building a system wheredata is not starred on u under the other's control, but it tore onmachines, whoever I wely don't know who controls it. So one of the things wecan trite to do is give to two users so that they can can control their privacyand can be sure who who is even accessing what information they arecreating. I think that's that's. What m I'm going o going? I see US eatingnutrition El. To tell us what we're feeding T em blatching, you know,that's I don't say we're going to tell them what they can and can't do, but,but you dont, I, the ell users need to know the best place to have. Thenuditial label will probably be on your Browter, not on the on the airplayer.Riht would probably be something that you were you're running. A browseranthe bird t, O you look pure invades being licked here is how whichinformation you are wt sharing- and here here are the things you can do toavoid tit right, and I think D, that's that's where we can that's exactly whatI'm currently working on status is, is providing that information in a localcontext, so people have much more understanding, guarantees around theinformation they' spread and and when you build on infrastructure like thisyou'll have emergent social behavior, that that is better for the whole, asopposed to the individual who gaivs the data. If, if everyone holds their owndata, they will eventually become used to understanding what data they exposedwit, the interactive things when you build things on an centralizingfrostructure that social behavior is not emergent because it', it's it's notup to the it's. It's an offloating of responsibility to someone else tohandle that type of information, and that's why people lack the way they doon the Internet, and I was just going to say I don'tthink the Brousis the right place for it, because I don't think browser makershould be playing Wackamol with how adaptegolfers are trying to get aroundcertain nedifications and I feel like, ultimately, the liability for any datyou release is on the adept of Elvert, not the browser maker, not not me, enduser needs to be informed, and I believe that the n, the responsibilityto inform your doubt users of Whos, of what's going on in your det, isultimately up to the DEP developer, not the person who writes a browser. They should not haveRonach th. I Don Clot TAT developers. That's why I I want my browser to be asheld, because I oa nnavitant, both uts, but that's where the inconsistency ofreporting comes in. So if they, if you find that information's beingsubmittted to the chain- and they didn't say, Hey your information beingspinted the chain. There's liability on...

...that Ou. THAT'S THE BEAUTY! Ut, it'sthebauty, though the value isn't held by the by the dept developer everthat's. The whole point is that, if some, if they want to do something likethat, if you hold the information- and you hold the permissions- thatinformation you'll always know what the DABT is trying to do- that' that's the whole point, and so,if, as a dept Develler, your job is not to figure out all the potential ways inwhich you can screw somebody. It's just providing a service because you don'thave control over all of a value. Your value is, is, is a transitional medium.You transform value of one kind to another kind, and if you don't do thatproperly, the user will know because they have control over all the data. I think I I just see too many attackfactors there. I don't know Hoi Ha die tribes conversation we can have Calin.I aeally. I really. I don't trust developers, Um Ju Ho been kind all thetime and I feel like if they can get your information somehow yeah. Ithey'll summint it on chain in way, but if they can find a way to do it, youknow wherethey're all so sumitting into their information. Davas. That's that's!That's where I I kind of like okay. If we trust the chain, we als have to trust the Det. I don'tthink that that works. The DAPP is a proency for the chain. The chain itselfis the truth, but we can't trust the developers in their code and we need toput liability on them for behaving properly. Well, I I think it can all be true right. Wecan have. We can try to solve the problem. MOVAL front yeah. I agree with that. There'sthere's! No like one stop shop solution for all of this. It's definitely amixture of all things yeah and it's good to have people multiple points ofview on that n, different ways of thinking and different trust models fortheir own interal internal ethos, because you know that's how we buildbetter software, so yeah I like this conversation Alex Howpo reach. You H, I'm on Nitre Avsa an I'm even startstart there and I'm probably in alther places too and website universial ofLogan Universal again that Ao Sion Up Axashal enjoy. I Trinrttinan FOonfelulation Li Party Holyn.

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