Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 30 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #30: CyberMiles - Michael Yuan

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

On this episode, we have the extreme pleasure of interviewing Michael Yuan, Chief Scientist at CyberMiles. CyberMiles is building a blockchain platform targeted for e-commerce with those concerns in mind. Using a fork of Ethereum and the Ethereum toolsets, CyberMiles has an upgraded EVM with support for extended and extensible opcodes and a dPoS consensus system for validators to stake into the network. Their research is pushing the limits of what the existing technology can do, and they have some amazing progress in proving alternative systems for developing blockchain. Michael is a very exceptional scientists in this space, and he and Collin had a great conversation, not just about CyberMiles, but the space in general.

Links

https://www.cybermiles.io https://github.com/cybermileshttps://twitter.com/juntao https://medium.com/@michaelyuan_88928

Welcome to hashing it out PAAST, for wethouht to the teck intevators behind block in intrastructure and decentalizethat och we dive into the weeds to get at Wy and how people builed thistechnology, the problems they pay folon way, ime, listen and learn from thebest in the business. You can join Teir Wrek, don't you hash? I get out as always. It's me calacuce ate. I regret to afford you guys thatcory will not be joining us for this particular episode. He is tending to afamily emergency, but we wishhim the best and I'll be continuing without hem. Today,actually, we have a pretty good good episode. We've been trying to get theseguys onf for awhile. It's Michael Von from Ciber Miles Michael Tell me a little more aboutsiver miles than what you guys are doing over there. Aar audiencehes onebackground, so I don't murder it sure yeah hi calling so this wasMichael, an from tared ous, an and cofounder, and she find Hes, Eibe Houseand port. What we want to do is to be ALD a application, specific barkkingand which application it's the ECOMMERCE addication. So we want to buel, a public bog chainge that I's optimized for ECOMMERCE applications. That's what wrong to gotchet. So whenyou're looking at a blachain, specifically becommerce, how do youdefine e commerce and what is the actual scope of of challenges that arespecific, that I feel that you think you need to address with uniqueblotching right yeah. So you know I think peoplehave been longing to use. Bokton Fot, you, commerce, singe, the beginningdays of you know, Bacorn, you know weal, remember the guy who you know who whospent. I forgot like ten thousand, be points to get two pizzas. You knowsomething like that and then one of the earlest usecase of of bit coin is socrled right. If, if Yo, if yo remember you know it's, you know it's a darkmarketplace, but you know it's it's very comerse. You Know People Oupitcoin to buy anthing yea. So right you know, that's Al! So Um, I think youknow: m busing, boting technology or use cripital currency for Um, F, e commerce, typograppications. Sohow we define ECOMMERCE is a marketer place that allows people to bear andsell physical grues or digital groups, so anything that can be sold about withdecomerce and that's pretty much the the the underling usecas thatpeople have been wanting to do: Sinc Tay Wi of cryptcurency. However, iffast forward T to war today an we have not see much success on at you know. Weare seeing some success, fum so called. Although iegalso it's been shutd O andwe have seen marketedplace like open bizarre who use Vitcoa a paymentmessage, and today I think most people, scurious, chrricgis or Ebay. You knowthat's very few people actually use open Pzar and if you look at you know abit Coi as payment measure, you know a lot of companies. Has You know, Um regular ECOMMERCE companies has triedto accept cryptal currency on the website. Right, you know, there's? U, Ithink onerstock is one of the early pioneers and then you know there'scompanies like even dor. You know you know very traditional. You knowcomputer hardware, company, mthers payment gateways, wil BITPA and theebunch of Combunit Liaf. You know who enable traditional, EUCOMER struckxeptit coin, but m things like that M has met with, I think, Mik success. Youknow, or I esay not much success because you know M as we learne fromthe die, who spent like ten thousand petcoins to by stuff the primarypurplisof bit. COING is not be use a O payment messave. You know because thepart the pric tructurates a lot right. You know. So if you look at thosethings, if you look at Um, you know if I, if you like me, if you have ever spentbi on to buy stuff, you would always remember the day where the Bit ClintPrice dobbled after your Boux othing and you you come to regret how come Ispend so much money to buy a chair or by you know, Badbok. You know somethinglike that. You never remember the days when bit Gen pass dropped after youbout COMSAN. You know you got to Co, cheep right, you know so from thepersonal from the consumer, Psychologo Ron, Chryrstomal psycholege point vie,you know, there's a m. You know the traditionalcontrcurrency is not very good. Tet Flaw for H for ou commerce, althoughthe demand is definitely there so from...

...our pointym Isact. You know we aretrying to Gi the whole inmastructure that addressd not only this probem, butalso the problem with the the Lenar Tix. All this interilation ofthe decomers marketplace. Um. We tried to build this own isswer and and wasnot successful because of the technical limitations and we're going to talk alot later and d. So that's you know basically prompt us to build. U A newbrockinfrastructure that is Basedeyn. Ser is compatibly so, but wish a lot ofoptimizations that a ECOMERCE pespect, that's okay! So that's where you pay myinterest, um you! We all right so its I'm, going toprobably jump ahead a bit on this one, but you say you want to build acompatible epherium lockchain, meaning that it's running off a fork of theATHERIAN protocol. I take it correct, yes, okay, so why did you go with your own lotchingand not a layer too kind of blocching like a plasma chane right, so Blatma sovs the m some of thepayment issues, but it's you know for us. It's there's re. There are twopundamental innomations that that's that we made U for Eserm, so the POITICathepotical a we try to stay compatibly tium, but there a e two things that wehave done. That's significant different! The first be that we want to jumperhead and become delegated pooa at least prove AF steak. Today, becaseit's going to take a long time for us for Caser to come, Alon and then Shaskright. You know that, so you know it's Foram to Baanc the interest became themining community. If you end O the Pos community is GOINGTA. Take, I think atleast a year and a half or maybe ven two years right, but by building a newblockchin building new infrastructure, we can just jump ahead and without allthis baggage riht, you know just to leave you strmday, that's what we wantto do right. You know. That's at the first thing convinces there we want todo you know what Heo has always bendoing. You know, that's that is tooGod. You know ten second confirmation and UH o finality in each block, so that youdon't have evegurity and much much faster profit in speed and all thelayer to network stuff can also be built on this network, because this is,I ho compatible right, but with much faster maymet and the second thing wereally want to do, the the is actually the the techniqecoisas. We want to do,istemproovs they. U Work, Tomisson, you know th, the EBM is a touring computerpersamanship. It can perform anning computing tasks, se that human humanbeings can come up with ih an that's what toing complete means. However, itis not optimized for any specific task, so there are a lot of things that aregoing to take so long, Tho, computer NSM, it's it's it. It's not practical.So very good gonthose, including you, know, iggoring over a large amount ofdata. You know a larger arrayfor instance, or common ency public K,Encrypti and deecryption stuff and bee. Those people have measured, you knowhow long its pack to do. You know cok stuff s. The concludion has always beengoing to blow the whole block aslinit. So you know, even if I empir blockthats nothing but to excute a smart contract that enc that incrapt us inpublic key. It would not be enough, so things like that was teoreticallypossible ijes not going to be practical, so what we hire R in a ECOMERCEmarketplace, but we want to build something that can address a manynumber of ecommerce challenges, including bynel personal data. Thedatamarketplacees one of the intigal use cases that were Aoun the dress andalso thaability to to to bring anotherv ver interesting t, technial challengethat that I didn't mention is to bring offline, often Dat Ounto, the BarkingPor instance. You want to bring things like the deleveryconfirmation, or even you know, m teapising finance where people havepaid their lawns or not. You know things like tawhere. You want tointegrate t with the banking system and Wi. I like that there are lots ofencryption and ecryption stuff that has to happen on the chain, includingonhave, the public, Peace Sto, but also proxy encryption and other. You knowmore more weird and more interesting stuff right and for those type of workthat we can putus have a war clouth that we can put polite CPLUS PAS paceextension to the INCERDERIN worting maschine. So a lot of those computationfass drops own to the native opeing system level and can come back, I wouldn't say millie seconds, but he esecond ite. Instead of you know, Tena Ata Virtue, machine level which gon totake much much much longer. So you know...

...so it's s. So basically we have build based onthe etern woter machine. We have bi our on workto machine. That's that's madethat extended in a certain direction right. You know lat it a lot morefaster and a lot more capable, but also adding a lot of you know opcode andKebers for F for their SPECIAC tasks. That's why I'm employed cam or sublALTMAS, forye commerce, it's averto machines! BIL! This way it's! It is not!I it is going to j, be just ectonaliz, he ary most pasks, but what youcommonservat an ask. It can be a lot faster. You know some of the pohormancetest that we have done is a hundred times to us to ten thousand time faster.So it could be you knowford or so magnidude faster, because it's notperforming those Tasin in Mertomi Sanbox, but strops Itto, the to thenative se plascas ter. SO THAT'S UM! F, You LD, ask me what other two you know:engineering, uomations, thathave o those other two. You know so we yoled dbs and then we build a new artermachine and yeah. So you've covered a lot of things, a that just strike aparticular cort of me, so scaleabilityis just one problem in atheoryim. In my in my mind I do M. I do like you know the efforts that are beingmade and I think, there's some some incredible stuff being done on them. The couldceptus mechanism side to Wi h with a you know, was it Srenity,otherwise known as Shasper, otherwise known as beacon chainetherium on the layer. One side and some amazing efforts with the PLAZMAimplementers and s general state channels to handlescaling. I believe that those are all good general solutions that shouldapply if they work to pretty much everything that goes forward on most networks, although I will say thatI think that RFE stake might have an issue and that people need to buildvalue before they implement proof a stake. Otherwise, it's kind of an issuefor the earlyr doptors have too many too much power Um. So I I'm interested I in in theconsensus mechanism, side of things that you're doing, but I think, because of the radical natureof what you're doing with the virtual machine, I want to talk a little moreabout that. First, DN virtual machine was builtspecifically withcertain intense in mind. One of them is at the theexecution of code is sandboxed and there is a security around the factthat everything runs in the e V when you're talking about adding seeextensions to your own custom V m. What h? How do you prevent Um? First ofhow do you make sure that everybody has the same extensions and second of howdo you protect those those calculations done on theoperating system level? Right, so you know, that's wo seemslike that will happen. We would have to make trade offs right. You know, that'syou know. That's also why I say you cerm would probably never take theapproach that we talk, because it breaks a certain philosophers. That say:Oh deer, you know so you know that's so te Pan what we did right. You know soso, um in en of day, the vm is written by cupocapocofers. You know those areyou know, rhythem by you know, Um. It is a very small vm and it's not veryoptimized, but it's it's, but it's very tight and it's designed to reach toreach contentus. So it has no ambiguat younow. So, for instance, you knowthere's a there's, no two ways to come up with h with the same anser or to cor or a piece of cod ndiverent machines would not produce different results.You know that's charateristics of the DM. The Um also shows its limitations.Like I just said you know, there's you know o o point. I me I you want to be ot a datamarketplace or all things related to ECOMERS. It's really hard todo it wis with witsmart contracts on UBM. So I think even in Ger communityhas realized that, and we are also active participated in that is the nextgeneration of wertwo machines. Iva Rit, you Knowevezon, Isyou Sur on' play wewe have assembl and wherer. Assemblya is much more versatile or to machin. It's? U is support, Ithink you know all the languages R lbm Supports Yoo, which Thi there's, maybetwenty of those Amedse good being so, b, Cass right and h, the urm flavor meansit separates out the consensus, computation and the general computation,so the consentive compunation be still being sandbox and then being being puton chank and then much of the general...

...computation. The note that that that you con act toand it may not get on on Chang, so ther're the complex undesign with evism.That's that's that separate O H, consensus, computers and the generalcompetation. So that's also the kind of diection that we want to go,but we are because we are mortifying off BM, so we are we're taking a lessstrict or less mathematical apports than they do, because even them and tobe braing, I think still at least two yars away. You know it's because it hasCahirne chacter has to e done first and then you know because the WortanMachineis tied with the consensus magnism. So it's a long way to getthere, but for the Um for the vm extension that we did, we are justusing CEGRAS Pars. So so to answer your question, there's two the two questionsthat you have just raised. The first is: How do you make sure that everyone hasthe same extension, the the there's a there's, a mechanism, our blockhing,because Al Lotching is the pus, its usingacevicated prove upstake. So there's a boting Echaniza for people topropose, what's S PLASFA extension, that they want to put on e blockshairand then Tho, the supernotes ofor, the other notes all for the we collatiatour nots to evaluate those, and we have tools for them to revaluat. Those andto step out randomness- and you know things like that and then determinedive. Those extensions can be put on shame and two SAR e majority of th BaythatNowsbot. Yes, then this extension being put on chain and put onto every nose onthe on the network. So you know so it's, but I said this: Some people mayconsider it's TAT's the optimal, because now you have a committeedeciding you know, which you know ledg to which Sauter expanion can be put onChan but to Um to compare to what's what has been down today. You know ifyou look at diserm, there's, there's notion of native contracts andprecompired contracts and those are builled into the software itself. OPDAS eoptive incle of those soltersBIS basicallysoutare itself and it Bein determined by a small group of qualtyby the perse, and here we it's also been developed being determined by, Iwould say, a relatively a small co t e group of core. You Know Adi iters, butI at lease to say those radidators Aro govenance appided, to the govenance ofthe block Chang. So I would I you know. Of course this is based onwhere I sept right in a bibut. For me, it probably put more preferable to havethe validitters determine what new cunptionalities goes on the barcingrather ther and of Qoeoopers, who basically do not answer to thecommunity. But you know people can argue about this all the time you know.That's, you know, but B, that's abet. Try be defy different govenancemechanisms, ISO, you know for us. You know we CEN, we get up Tito the blockchain, Wiholf swalking or stopping or changing t ofcer, ointenous ofter IIN,adding soccer to the Barko this way. So we compare Tis to you, know replating H,aner, the airplane's still plying nd right. You know that's because thepassengers wot to say that we needa new Enin O new engine. So so that's how wemake sure that everyone has the same set of extensions and then you knowthose exchenges themselves. We also only support a limited number ofHobidin systems, so so we arelike Osorm that supports a larg variety ofdifferent Ormane systoms out there. You know the the sacramouse poking out oftoday only have you know, notice, atr for for a small number of Enixdistributions, that's all our imitation, but that's we hope to improve this inthe future by diling all new tools and Godi goting out or new pofents, but asof today, Woni Suppod, a couple of flaers of Linux. We are not. You knowlike you S, that that support a diversity, a large, diverse tate ofobern system, ofse SOTHOSE- I don't know Yiuve- got out of you- twoquestions, Edo y, it does so how I have so many questions thatit's very difficult to choose, which wants to to jump in with Um. I guess Iguess we'll have to talk. AE'll start with the proof. A stake, delegatedPROOFAF stake, Um explain so we've actually never had anybody on the show,with delegated proof of stake as their core consensus protocol Um and Um. My knowledge of delegated proof.A stake isn't quite as strong M, but I did remember reading. I think it wascalled Bitch chairs, and I remember reading some articles on it about ayear ago, I wan to say Um and they they have A. I think, adelegated proof of stake consensus...

...mechanism and what I saw was that theywere dealing with issues of our questions. Not Not necessailyshould be questions of Um centralization and it sounds like youare aware of those issues. Um and UM. Don't consider them particular concern.So for the benefit of our onieans and myself, can you go over delegate a proof mastake in your inyour system, how it works? Why you chose it and Um? You knowaddresse some of the concerns about keeping the network trustless right. Yeah we'll have to do that. You know so. Youknow from our point of view. I think you know that's. I think it is proberconsensus, the what is dedicat o prove Osa Theho stakeis direct imitation of a human political SYSSTU that is calledrepresentative democracy with land suffrage. What doe that man? It meanspeople who own land can elect Congress, and then the country is governed by theCongress lice. Okay. So not one person, povote IIS Youl will depend on how muchland you are, but still the the woters do not come in the country directly.It's all Coen society directly. It's a representative of Tho conwers that theelact I think this is you know this is the political system. Thats RomH has oted and its also the early political system in America. Beforethere's one person e wo right. You know so tha s, so there's a large um amount,the precedents of Wythis. Why? This is the case and why this is might beinteresting for for Broxing, because you know, becauseI nlik the human political system, if Um, when a person wel there's really noconsequence for him individually, Iran, you know so theres. So you see peoplewoing n. You know that you know Um. I wouldn't say I responsibly, but youknow that's. They com O howread, a wile, but in a in a citical system wherethere's an sufferage, you know thereis, because you have to put your land oryour poperty Ai. So if you wo, I those those the problem that what I likewould be fash. So this slashing back in e, I think it's critical for any POSsystem. No, the DVS system and PS system are, you know, Um, I think tha the it it's. It's probablydifferent level of centarization. You know it's. If you are trueat, youaresystem that everyone can Otoan a contin government, then that's Donma,Arcutis polites, the pestoties Anvisation hiwver in aDPS system, where you, you lack your your representative to govern the thesystem for you, then, by Defiton youwill have a lemel of centralizationbecause of the elected representatives are centralized Te Ges, centralizegovernment hever in the extreme, where everyine elected representative, youknow so you know y Youlike, a large number representatives, then yuare sufficientdecentalized. But you know that's a if the number of e reprelenatives is thesame as a number of waters, then ps exactly like us horever. If you're onlyyou're, actually one representative, the king or the you know or thedictator, then you are very centralized so plus DPS at the PS. Thecentralization debate is a matter of degree. You know it's how disinrised Ican make my d BS right. Well, CER, the thing with Pos is that you know anybodywith the proper amount of stake can decide to be a validator and check thenetwork, and that means that anybody can basically say I want to make surethat etheorium's honest and they can detect problems themselves um with delegated proof a stake. It'sabout the number of people th th from what I understand it's the amount ofcurrency someone has is is somehow tied to their voting powerUm, because you I mean in theory what you could do is just take your you knowall your currency and have have a minimm minimum vote amount on severalnodes that you run and then you've just increased the number of votes you have.So it's real useless to try and cap that and what you do instead, as you dovotepower proportional to currency owned M. is that correct? I understandthat right right, you know so so so so thetol Iwasright, you know Wy. If how much currency that you have and a how muchcurrencies are ther people goin no vote for you. So you know well, diffrenpeople are difverent. Topsystem set outright homer system is a lowlike, ourpolitical system, so the congress...

...person can be pool. He can have nomoney, but he people who hanet money want to stake him. They can elect hiinto Congress. You know what I mean so so you know so it' a matter ofcampaigning for the for the community so that the people thet token hodersthemselves may not necessarily want to be a esadidator or the or delegateright. They came just to elect someone to act on their behalf, so t thethe, Brek brings up a question that I have is: What would ittake to own the network from a currencystandpoint? S? Let's say how much how much currency would someodey have toown? How much voting power would someone have to control in order to Um sway the network M in their favor right?So so ther? Actually two two ques well. Actually this is a complicated question.I H I proie three afsers N, also not toomuch you know. So the first is Um. You know Um whether you know if someone has acontrols, a large amount of currency or someone ncontrols Um, a large amount ofwolking par. Can he um an cheat on the network? You knowbasically schoow the network. TES favort. Yes, you know. That's? U That'salso. You know Um one of the things that we that we cometedly see which,which I wont name names. Our southern projects that Hase DPS whatas thefoundation controls ninety percent of Thee, the Oldin Sapar, you knowthen,it's esentially theounetion, going to do whatever they want and I havetobocare you know because they have they have all the MOINPIRES INS andthat's Um, but but but that also te case that Atan Otticase for a lot ofthose. A lot of the DPF networks, for instance,was ootonation controls less ten ten percent ofobstanding on coins right,you know so so you know there's no major pairs that have so much votingpark that are going to scuiit right. You know so not' the first anser andthe second answer is in the pootical. So different people have differentmechanism to prevent the aggregation of woalds and to prevents you know: M Databehaviors thet're, going to have on the network, so mour Potocole that we have a cap oftopper an wot. So you know when you have woting power, you get benefit fromthe network. You know in the porm of you know, abyu say the network. HAS CERTAININFLATION BUILTY? So if you are so you FA aditator, you can get part of theINFA benefits right, you ow! So that's you know he en ur to Holmost, O tdnetworks set up and we have a cat of telv percent. So if you go older topercent, you get no Ho additional benefits. So in that case the economicincentive is is is goes strongly against. People wotaking you over twopercent, so you find Ma large coden holder and you are a politician andwants to be amaridernote and you already attract to a percent of thecommunity spots. There's no reason for me to take you anymore: BECAS thtoken!I taking you would not get an any benefit right. You know so because itwould not own any perdition inflation, so I would chose to Stak somehere else.Ond have a smaller stake, but NSO. This is not the same, as is electedofficials where they get. You know they get one vote type deal becausetechnically, let's just say some Biclin Wale says I'm going to own theCIBREMILE's network. Ok, I'm going to buy you know, let's just say over fiftypercent of the currency, it's probably more like two thirds is what you'd need,but considering the cursis, probably valued kind of low. At the moment you know it's it's new Um, then they would go th. There would besomething thou could just totally do as I could go I'mabuy. You know asignificant portion of the currency or me and my friends are going to buy asignificant portion of the currency, and these kind of people also havemajor compute power at their figure tips. So how do you stop a whale from throwingup? You know let yu say: Um Five voters: Five upst five of Um fivedelegates to represent the the network out of out of like, letshould say, nine, okay and s now they control a majority vote, even though Um you know just by virtue of their Curseyand even d they're also staking in their own votes. They have each one, ita twelve percent, so they'll control s, sixty percent of the vote. Um. How do you? How do you stop that kind of thing fromhappening? Because in in th in the marketplace we have regulation? And sothis is. This is not a you know, a pure like um government model and that that agovernment pr a congressman, can only...

...go and have one yea or nay Um. This isa. This is a proportional model where certain Congressmans have congressmenin more weight, and does it sound like there's a strongcap on the number of congressmen available, so I could spread out mycurrency and throw up my own delegates. Butfurthermore, my friends who are aligned and my interest can do the same andwhat we would have is sort of a trust situation. Um You know like Um,we have antitrust laws in Um, so I'm speaking of you know, Business Trust. We have Manto Trust laws in our systemto stop certain industries from talking to each other. For instance, if youwant to speak with the CEOS of the ter one UM h wireless carriers, they can't be in thesame room without the STC being present Um. So what can you do to prevent somebodyfrom creating a sort of brain or economic trust? Um from manipulating your network? Righto nothat's, I thinwhat, I justdescribe a sivile attack or you know, or you know you ca have you know Um. You know that's when people teamtogether to try to come control the network. You know people team togetherto to control country as well. You know so tere a mathematical way that we canprovent this to Happeni no ther. Not So, but there are very good solutions.Horvor know why? Because Um, because although the Radi ater notes, proposeth blocks and build L and and and produce blocks, the all the wokat Tehave done is outerin open, like you know, so, people can all the othernotes, fol notes on the networks: They're not laditators, and they g theydo not get paid or you know for frominclation. They can still see andcheck and independently check what soot batiteers have gone. So, ifthelandadators decide to cheat, they add their own illegal transactions intothe Um into the system. SOFOR instancetransferring money without the partof key Andonos exactlh without probersignature. Can they do it? I they control thevoting Har. Yes, the can go ad, but when they do it, everybodyout on houtside would be able to see it and the network would lose public trust at thatpoint and then all the coins goes to ther, because anothersocial factors tosort of keep the network- honest, Rugting, an purely economic factors, soI I could see where that that might work in in practice. I could also seewhere somebody could op to scape that information in practice, meaning thatit's not them, but it's their cousin's best friend or it's somebody who owes them a bunch ofmoney. Well, you'll be the valodator for this network, Blah Blah Blah wwerewe're going to take all the shares out, you're going to have to run thehardware and that's oky Um. I can see a lot of ways that people can in socialins in the real world like manipulate the system, so t t people don't evenknow it's the same person h. How do you detect that as a user on the network?Wow Yeah? That's so you? No! So I think this is the check I just described does notdepend on wise. I know with Tho Gradeao ne person or related by Byon by bloodor by some plaaging interest. Is that if they want school the networks theyhave to do something illegal me Ethey have to do something: Mathematically,gl right! You know they would have to transfer money out of our countris outthe signature, and this can be do byh because they have the voting part to doit. They say this is a legitimate transaction and has to be groing onblock. They can do that, however. Hence they do that. Everybody else on thenetwoll also see that yeah, but that that's that's the underwying s problemthe busnaty. You know the general problem is really a problem of orderingof transactions more than it is anything else, meaning that you canorder transactions in your favor and not do anything illegal and still um th.The network wouldn't know any better, because the whole purpose of the validator is to choose an order and elect he leader to choose that order of the transactions and how they'reprocessed, so they don't have to necessarily do anything illegal to alsostill game the network. Well, you know so so, U, I guess wehawere describing different levels of attacks right, you know so so, there'sI say the most. The most severe type over the attack is to IU money for asell. You know, that's thatwuld be really illegal, but you are talkingabout other, more subtle things. I think you know one of the things.That's you know Ar Trabot travel open, transer network US AV. Everything inthe network can be seen by everybody...

...else. Olthe network, the Um, the thingsthat rited that are dead, like you said, is to make it official used to say thisis so. This is the way that we think this should be done right. You knowthis is our consentes, because you know, there's there's x, number of Vilumenesand two tirds of them said you know we have. You know we commpute and have thesame results. You know, especially if a smart contact iaobut everyone else onthe outside can also compute th themselves and it's, although there'sno mechanism, Internet whart, for you to say to dispute the result from theVaadar is evad. That is say sinal. However, in a larger social context,you can a you can always say those Vatetatr start to cheat and fordifferent reasons. Maybe they have anatual interest or maybe they've justbeen bright rit. Maybe there's some. You know we talk about bit on wealls,they don't they do not even have to buy those points they can just the promiseto bribe colabitators like you know how to prevent something like that. Youknow. That's you know it's it's m. They would have to do something thatthe community disagree IV th. If the outside coming, I sufficient people onthe outside of community to disagree with what the Variteget, then you know,I think the network woul Duce value and the net was cos Vaduu, there's a directsobsequence to the net to VAT thers, because e vadidators hose most of thecoins right. You know they are ot, most finaciall interestin not to see thishappen, so you know so, but I what I'm describing is a social experiment. Youknow it's when we look at good coin ten years ago.We do not know that people Goinna, join mining, stuf attacking it, becausethere's eqal chance people might make money from fifty one percent attack.Then mining right but turned off mining safe. You know at least unto ao O asfar as we know, Cin Inin Stuf. You know so so so. Um M Ive ben FANK BEFOR FOR OPA audibized to move forward n there.There could be a lot of expermentations and you knowinime. You know that'swe're one of the systems that we are trying to build, that that's m that wethink has had a good chance of being safe rtbut. Is it perfect safe? I cannever gantee that, like you, said no the're, there's a hundred times that you canthink you know that's that t that people might atactor. But then I saypeople want a b they're going to ose money and you say: Oh you know themoney. They lose they're not going to be the money tlike. They Ge. You knowthat'you knowthat's, but that's Um. I think that why we need moreblocktames than ser. You know we need more. You know Um Asituation, wherehave a lot of broctings, that a lot of experientation t an they can exchangeInin someforme, but that's Hmaybe, Scovi E. Another day by that this is sbecause. You know a lot of ouraudience are in the space trying to build all in a theorium and are alsotrying to build alternives Um. So I see your point about how etheorium doesn'tquite fit the m the market, this ot an nichfit both with y the current state of the consensus,Meghanism, ands the and the evm Um. Why not just wh? Why? Why not just build your your system as a plasima chain, thoughI still don't see a solid. I I see a need for a lay or two solution likeyours, but my question is: why not back it with something? That's trust, less,meaning that people have an exit strategy in the events that they findsomething wrong. So they don't want to devalue it because it's being backed bysomething I'm Sustrong likeetherium in current early implementations of Pazmaare available. Um Ends M that you they'll, probably roundit out sooner rather than later. I think there's been some articles oncoindesh saying that plasma's dead, but I will guarantee you that's not thecase plasmas very much alive, Um, it's it's actually driving they're doingsome really cool stuff. APPLAS by cash and just regular Plai contracts,there's there's very interesting ways of staking into separate chains Um. Whynot join that effort and make cypemiles a high through put Um DPS, backed ERC twenty or Yrse, whatever token umto Um, to enable the trustless mechanism thatethereum has to back the cybremiles protocol and also maybe enable otherpeople to fork your stuff and put, but up their own sort of m CIB Siver Milesvariant? Yeah. You know that that's M, you know,that's Um, that's actually something that werewe're active, looking Ito. You know, because you know, because we re open,saurce right. You know so f someone want to use all heir software and builda Sach ony son that they can definitely...

...do that. Harbor Um. I also say you know: That's! The plasmais really really newr and I think Casto mbpjst came out like a couple of monthsago and there's lots of issues on resolve issues and as lar as I know,there's no less tha. Four five. You know competing PROPA inclentations eachadgressing, a different COPEM. Although um I tol colege Talk Um, I e to come for, I was in the room, athat you know. That's that's Um peace motion is at as a you know, weare.Well, we have finally down the long time the pop of tee and we can see thesanrise you know as much. I want to believe that I think you know it's probabl veroptimistic because you know and we're also addressing some of the most eEsest usecases for Passa as right now you know Someevm, you know, there's novirtue, Mation conplaination! There are lot of things that I think Patma hashas a way to go, and also I lottl like to point out. What we have done isactually sharting. You K it's it's it's a Partin, teside Chan, but sharting isanother way to you know, increase it soput right. You know that's Um. Whatwe have done is what we call logical shotting, because if there's is youowncompatible bocktings for each particular appricaion Marticles, thenyou can share you'll work roa this way, because games going to be on doging ayou come en on block cou B. You know Finan see tn box nfo, you know, that'syou. You can actually Showyo wo workrod like this as long as there's a way orthose btams to exchanged opens and because they're always er compasible ts,I might be possible to connect it to be to the bacenty Acess W rive. You knowso I think there's there're lots of interesting and unresolved issues, butwe can't wait. You know we can't Um. You know you kN W. Our project starteduntwo a month ago a when pass happene on existe, no back Te, not even theidea ike. You know that's M, oh, we can't wait for plasma to be foly,maturize and and then build our stuff on public. You know, but we are open,SOUC project that we are actually you know exploring it. Is it possible forall Aworto machine to be wrong as a POSSBA as POSSLA FATIN? So what do youhave wh? What O you Hav just discuss, thesvery much our mind as well. You know how do we play with with a NECO system? That's larger,Comin Naspilit. You Know Ho told we play arted. How do we pay in Casma? Youknow bout EA, but we need to see something and- and- and we considerhere and and and and just wait right- you knowthat's you know, that's we we used to have a yards between tecoand and justhaven't traded on excente. You know, that's not what what do we want to do?Willant to be ace, buelding, stuff, ieuing, the means Hav to go AL orself,maybe consider indeqadent later. I completely agree with that approach.It's a business answer. It makes perfect sense to me, build your buildyour own thing and when the time comes to the technology matures and you canintegrate, be open to the idea. That's all that's! All I really need to knowis because a Lo there's a lot of side projects out there where people are aredoing their own thing and I feel, like you know, theyre n Hes got to be. I have a personal philosoy. There willbe one blotching to rull them all there has to be. There has to be one singlesource of truth. We cannot have a mishmash of different truth mechanismsout there, because one will eventually be the category. King One willeventually be just the d facto standard and it's just an evolutionary process.It takes time it takes. It takes maturity of the technology it takes.You know it takes adoption, and all these things are slowly happening isslowly coming together, but I agree if you need to build something to to beready for that moment. Do it now just go for it? So I totally get that, and so I I want to go back to thevirtual machine stuff, so we could talk about th, ps and it's kind ofcontroversial Flawsall Day, but I think that's been you know to to use theepitheen th, the pocastitle hashed out quite a bit already elsewhere Um. Ithink I think that DPO sounds like a wise choice for for your needs rightnow, Um, and I do think that it would actually be more interesting when it'sintegrated Um with like in a theorium latching, but the the thing that's really the mostinteresting to me is still the virtual machine that you've got going on. Soyou've mentioned that the virtuial machine was built by Budgergrotographers with croptography and mind, and because of that, it's had alot of ah...

Slo. I want to say Ta laws is not theright word. Let's you say hard lined features that I particularly finddifficult to deal with, one of them being Um that register sizes in thevirtual machine are fixed at two hundred and fifty six bis, which is alarge space and also it means that you any time you want to store anything. Imean anything you're consuming two hundred and fifty six bits right thereoff the bat, which means that any sort of storage on to chain, if you want tostore a single character to flag something, that's two hundred and fiftysix bits right. I should be seven, but no it's two hundred and fifty six bitsum you. You know things like that. Thelack of Sep like Um encryption functionality in such anencryption oriented system seems peculiar to me Um in that I'd like todo some elliptical curvework inside my virtual machine, but I can't so m. Youknow that that's interesting me and another one is. I don't really needtering completeness. I need verification. I need formalverification in a lot of my contracts, so why would I need a full tering,complete system which can't be Foro, formerly verified when all I need for,like ninety I'd, say Sa Ninety eight to ninety nine percent of all contractsout there just mean basic nontoringcomplete, procedural kind oflike almost like a database procedures, kind of work m. What what is yourvirtual machine doing with regard to any of that? If anything and what O Thed? What is the designed philosophy around your upcodes ind, your your yourvirtual machine design right? So now, that's I'm ad. You bortit ut. You know so. There's you kN for Theevm, there's UM. We can make fundamental changers a Dand then we cam potition Lebel changes Um for the things like the the size of the UM o fundamental. Youknow a Dar structure. We tend to not to make those changes for now, becausethat breaks compatibility. You know we wan't Sothey did appications, so theEPIDCOL to be able to run all the moveshon m should benot change. So sowe basi we lefter those most of the same tar hiwer. We made somefundamental changers SOFOR instance. You know when you talk about touing,complete o one of the issues. That's Um, I think I wouldn even say the majorityof smart contract issues are Um. intether overflow, you know is act. Youknow when people are explored because you know: There'stravel have the safe mass librers and sometimes people don't use it, and thenthat create opportunity for hackers to m. You know to to intention m callthose contracts and ND, add almotprivery large numbers and overflow.Those numbers and th. The overflow is a interesting feature. That's that's!That's S, part of the TUING comple IRIKT. You know because people canalways argue. Maybe the programmers etended to overflow it' some kind offeature howver we s. You know: Ike N, Ninetnyn, nine Poit, nine, nine percentof the time es, but you know that's, so we would rather shet down that feature.So in terms of obcod, we C we we, we introduced a new UPCO new DAA AdcoSafeinto Jrin, a Safinte Elebel in a virta machine, so automatically wrappeda ot by the safe mass library you know, and also even without the safemess. Ifthe virtial machine detacts overflow, it's about the execution, the excusion just tefail. It would not overflow and print pretend thepo. The program is stillroning cractly, so you know so so. I'm just Givin Yon Example of thefundamental datatypes that we are trying to modify their behavior orchange their things. Although you could say that's by by not allowing you know into theovera that we are breaking compatibility, I because someapplications thatd behave certain ways. Oerim would not behave the same way ourwork omishion, but that's a risk we want to take. You know, because wethink this this behavior change, ninetey nine percent, nine, nine y.nine times e the bog that' be help to fix WLL d. You make it an explicit typelike a safe, ent type or SF you anttype, or do you go ahead and just make alluns safe, math wwe did both you know. So it's we have a safe intergotype.That's if, if, if you declare that time and use that time, it's it's all operation around it as beenwrapped in safe mass, but we also have at the VERTU mation level at the round time level. We we monitorthose Uins and I the if the if the Unin...

...to tfty fie, two fifty six overflows,the virtumation stops and Soever. You know Y Eah, so yeah e course I wasgoing to ask is if, if, if you know the? U Nt on the virtual machine overflows Mon something that isn't declared safe, then it would still be compatiblebecause you kno that's just how solidity is, but if you only did it forthe safe version, then that would that would also um that w that would Um. Youknow if you did it for the safe persion and the regular version. It almostseems like there's no point in having the safe version UM and t yeah. Well, there are still some sortof different that that you know Ha, probably wouldn't get into hearbut, butbut yeall right. You know it's I the say fortune safe and the regularVersionis Ols. Then I we can still claim compatibility th. We can do it.Nat Wach, but e, just the so manyxixin contracts also that a a hat usingregular reporton right, you know, that's we we sox it might be betterjust fix on that youknowthat's, but that's not a choice that we make. Youknow that's, as you know, all those choices are hardbecause you know they all have trade offs. You know. That's definitely. Definitely. INCOMPARABILLis a difficult thing to to to to stick to stick your guns on that. So whatabout m having BASICA ECRYPTION functions? Would that be relegated tothe UM, the sea? Extensions? Yes, so so so that idea comes from, you know m!You know Um early Gama Day. You know! That's you know you like old guy. Like me, youknow that such on job for many years at we all know that Ye, the JAA Nadaveineverse. You know because th origin, because originat Jalo was very sanboxdOif. You want access to anything like a doife strimer like the Sun Card or thevideo card or whatever you know that you need a deice driver that rid imOjaba. You know that's Gent, but that's SOSO. We have something called thelvthat we have. We have a special APCOLD that can you know that can rap aroundsuplas Fas appications IAT. So we have you know, m. You know RSA encryption.You know that Bi Basic Pca, encryptions and all hat stopped reading s that canbe directly called from the VERTU Maship. By the way. This is not areally a new approach. This is exactly what sum does with native contracts,but, like I said you know the difference between this a nativecontact. This can be added at any time Bya Wolt, but the native contert willhave to be don by softer appqik or COS MIT. You know so so so there's therelot of those lot of those things. O'm not I wouldn't say that radicallydifferent technology or you know just a weare, so smart, but other peoplehaven't thought of obitst's. Not The people have thought about it. We justtook a different approach. You know that's, ah an and then there'one othething I want to talk about on the virtul machine is at the work as elanguage TATWER. We have integration with T s. What do that mean? It meansyou know, because one of ems, the key Um outhpapers new comerce, that we need articles. Weneed to bring opteen data on Chan. You know, son, SL, givevery, confirmation,bank accounts. You know things of that nature. Right, TBE, the privatephysical product is being sold or be received. You know things like that. Um in I I oll the world or o the reserms. Thearcle is a vertictical poblem. That's you would have to Tolie, cyntralizetrust or you'd h play some kind of cope economic games. You K, ow, you went alarm aclock, an very hard that youwould have a community of people who would be senuized by some kind ofRSONOF, a es, eena mechanism that would send the second Seconda to the block caat a sertend time. You know: That's, that's! That's ther's poticl yarm, PAright. You KNOWSO for on regular Zem, the the cost of having articles ithink isvery hig, but as that we have at the virtal macione level. We have UH. You know you know in N, in regularSolater, there's there's you can face by some function as owneronly. You know.That's only the owner of the contract, you all riht. On those we have a Wktoor, cale boutemy. The only current validators can operate on thosecontracto and then we can. We be tind to extend it. So that's only themajority about it that is, can vote to perform certain functions that allowsus to bring option data pong change, tovadivators because F, we made anassumption that evativators provide golemes and they are trustomersybecause youv Don, not trustoverson, then no the stuff on e boxingstransmercy. So yeahyeah Yo you play so those aregood guys. Then then we can Reondu to...

...bring realward information, accredicsreceives and you knowthings like that they can provided the service to theboxting by bi. You know by feeding Thi Tate, O th Ma contract, essentiallyvaeaters can't actess Bo to Um articles in this case. So that's also Yo. U KnowOne of the things that we get for for you, commerce, ther. You know Iunderstand this can be argued. Both ways can be good or bad. You know,Thatr two centralize y know that that that's pecision that we ma you knowthat's o. We Cook it makes sense. We went through that kind of it makessense why Yo went why you went with this approach Um, but h, yeah. No, Ithink it's really great, because you want to iterate fast over your machineas well mean that you're, it seems to me, like the DPS, is almost a mechanismfor driving inovation m with your with your group, meaning that if you want toadd more functionality to your system, if ys is a lot easier to t get thatdone with than M, then just regular troup of work, Um and steak isn'treally out there yet um so yeah. No, I I think that that makes perfect senseto me Um. The question I have now is: is what of the tools look like for thischain: Um, meaning that Wallets Um? You know: N Mining, N,validator notes, Um Kno, just regular client nodes uh since you're trying toget your conpromation times down. You said below ten seconds that couldincrease the size of the block chain, significantly m. So do you have a lightclient? What what does the tooling look like? Fo, the end user right so um? We don't have a nightclient right now. You know just you know, thereare a lot of developmenteffort. However, we have a pretty Um because we are certain compatible, sowe are standing on the shoulders of giants. YPE riht, you know so so so soso we can foralot of th Logan Sauce, projucts re going t be dead. You know,by adopting ising open AUCE COT te fore nee to Winstons. We have a you know m.We have a new new programming. Language is at based on Soadia, so we can so wemodifid th Sotha di compiler and- and you know, that's we call the languagelady. You know just resurted more liquid, the insolent right, you know soyou Tso. We have lety C that can compare it and then we intiguated thatNeanto remix. So we have our own far coff emix the Webbisiee for for for Fasilitity,and then we have our own version, folkvorking of metamask, so that tool that is complete, you know,so you can have menimase sebamas and we mix some feminous have them worktogether to deplay a contract and xay got a contract o Ridin in the languagethat o be polite. You know ment utenturthat's, Asen Isa, copapl, likeexisting Libraris like web. Three or Theriin j right you not so not notwelyes Oserm Jess, you know for thecerm fumptions, yes, so for Web. Try. Wehave a Rebsu CMT, because we added a lot of functions and transacting typesto the boking. So all theemba transaction types we already supports,but for deep Yo, aeralated stuffin sense. How do you lieiat? How do youyou know? How do you lakoradiat? How do o declare? How do sash? You know thingslike that. There's a large number of coent actions that we added to thatlibrary. So we quite vebswe CMT Jes. So that's it's a very unimaginative name.You know that's as a terrible name, but by tose are but those are, but allthose projects trase our linage to rerse, possibly ser rit. You knowthat's we. We we took those we we falk them and then we make it work on ourdoctor and then we try to find a way to contribute back. You know Um for these erm probraiht so ar wetalking about Websre, remax, metamask and UH. Then we have our APPC sorveeit S. LikeAfar. You know that's those areplaters, a e NSRM and then we have for theconsumers. We have a mobile wallet called this Empty Wallet where you knowit works with Ou Um, our minnut and it's less al. The listof CMT wiches are Simi token, and also the tokens that issue bocin. T Y alsohave a naming service a little like a year and ff, but it'sfor the for the tolken names right and F. for that Wallet there is a SD K thatyou can develop. APTICATE is that you can develop dats that directly make umit's sort of like metaash intigration on on the pother side, but this is onthe enside of the mobilre. You can develop daps that that's the water topay for your gas, and you know things like that, so you can oaitmi Ice Tonoadirecty inside O, th, Sid, O Watit, so there's Um the point I'm trying to make therare soviet of different tools that people are...

...already familiar with and they can justyou know I it. The learning. Corm is not very hard, you know so because allthese cerm stuff conearou onside house and then you can explore the thingsthat tatto be added. What I lov about that is that O oncetgainyou're a fork of etheriumyou're you're using existing tools, which people are already familiar withyou're experimenting with new concensus mechanisms, you're experimenting with extending thefunctionality of the virtual machine. I really see five miles as being a veryum interesting project for extending the capabilities of the etheriumnetwork. 'cause. A lot of what you're doing could technically apply to atheory Um. If it works right, they coul l, what you're doing go. That's amazingwe're going to adopt this into the main main net m they've done on it beforeat's, not something uncoi mean. WAS IT Zcash? Had the ZK snark Aucarthem athey went? Oh, that's a good idea and went ahead and dropped it into the thetheory in br the athereum virtual machine. So, like there's a lot of Um, there's a lot of features that you're experimenting with,because you have the freedom to do that M, and I I know that you're trying tobuild a network that' stand alone, but again, like I feel, like there'sGoin, to be one category. King, ultimately- and I I really do like theresearch you're doing, because it's it's going to contribute to the entireecosystem and because you're basing your work off of a theorium M You'eyou've basically become an r n d branch of a theorium. So I really hope a lotof people hear this and decide to contribute to your project to get someof the features that they think are interesting onto your project and and in doing so can demonstrate Um with alower bary to entry. What it would take to do that on the mainnet and what thatwould look like and what works and what doesn't work. But on the other hand, Ialso know that you, you have a business that you. You know the business modelssurround this where you want your chain to be successful. So I really do hopethat Um, you can integrate with other theoryum networks as well, because I dosee that being kind of the next next phase of of the evolution is going tobe layer too right yeah, you know so Whaif we ended up, be tha en COMVERCSard of Hes erm. Then then, all remisions comp accomplished you knowbecause we want ECOMER, sucation Depli, an Hou ecan with a uniform of asidechain or O eform up Shard. THAT'S ALL FINELITH US! It's just! You know thatwe have to start somewhere. We have to build our. We have to go. We have toput the search the step right. You know. If the community comes to theconserensus and said you know, that's the Sume PA network going to be thetost towider and everybody else Bein a shock. That's perfect! Fine! It us thatwe wan't to be in part of that world. You know! That's! You know that's toact. What you said You knowthat! We we want to be the pioneer United States,not tre, firmany WIS, a lot of Tu. You know especially Tig acuaated withecomers and to bring those business on to the Blocka, and he and- and you knowthree years or four years from now, where how we pay into the ECO system.We we hope that we are Wewe, would be acting and a good player in the itecosystem. That's you know, that's we havebeen doing open ot for many years,Myou, no Mash Ot, my person on it. I personall Hapen to e, opens O so manyyears. So you know that's you know. That's! The community is o a bies AA.If we want to be successful together, that's what I want to FAC yeah yeah, no,that's great! So how did? How did the name come up? How did you name yourname, your products, our your chain, cybromiles? What? Where did that comefrom a lot of people when theyhr they? Theythought T it's it's it's an airline, Marrg proglam being on the Bakin, youknow, but it's not o n, it's it's because we have. We have a e commercecompany called five miles in Dolla. It's a IT'S A it's! It is actually afairly large Um comsomer to consumer encommerce companyand H. It's you can think of like craiglist, but is follocal. So it's allin five miles and uh Um. It's actually one of the biggest Um merchandize that be moved by that TAT.Woe used cars. I think time. AUSE is one of the largest news Copularsin, theUnited States. At this moment e noot has you know: Um Fifteen MillonAmerican users wejust on the network. So you know that's, but that's the the Rut that o eCommercet five miles. You know everything being di in five mouth and H:Um...

...that' Um. We really want to build decentalized,see to see network sometime ouse is that ou orginal vision? But at U K inhonor oad there we find that we reade to gill out own inprostruction to gothere. So we pull te NPROSTRACTOR SIBEOUR mouse. You know it just h. Themile next Littli got ta say you know. I came in a little bit scepticalbecause it did sound like airline miles and it did kindo sound like somethinglike that and I was like what is this. What is this actually about, and then Ialso hear people building there and Blocchiin I'm like another one, butthough inprastructure ind the technology behind what you're doing isso sound in the way that it it it's it's. It's definitely amazing researchthat that needs to be done, and I love the sandbox environment that so sevrmiles provides for doing that. I really I really am enthusiastic aboutthis project. I think I think you definitely dealt with meat quite a bitUm, because it's just it's it just it justmakes sense the way you're doing things, and I I really do see that it couldplay a larger role down the line M in the theory MICO system m. You know, as far as you know, the virtual machine,research and UM eventually like integration of different consensusprotocols into the main network, or you know just a lot of the stuff- seemsto make perfect sense to me and well. Could you reat to the larger picture ofwhat we're trying to build with these dessentialized systems, so yeah majormajor Cudos to you guys? This is not a small undertaking. Building, somethinglike this is is a very ambitious project, so I'm KINDOF curious.Actually what what's the size of your team? How are how are you guys doing somuch work so quickly? Well, Neah, that's Um! You don't ask any good open, souceproject. We don't have a very large team. We have maybe Um. I think tweve developers were workingon this wat, hime and Um. You know so so that's maybe six of Sem Worki on thevertue machine and fix of them working on the block Cham. But then again youknow what I'm say that we stand on short of m giants, because you know webenefit commendis from other people's works enness in this community, soinsdens we benete tremendous from teunement. They provide D, ft hundrethis layer and rebid the D on Top of that, and we definitely benefitd from alot of working AVTA and also the people. N M community have Dola Etoring like oBenamask remax and all those works Tlat's. You know that SAV as tremendousamount of time, but that's what I consider the true spirit: Ooin Outo,acubl, stuff and h. You know what do you wish that other people can use thatstuff? Other people can buil round tap of that which I think we could parn ininness and h. You know that the fact that we, that that we can experimentWECA lot of tos ideas with you know we done people sacterizing testivice. Youknow the the power of the community thisin the space yeah. No, I I thinkit's Great Wbat you're. What you're doing I I'm impressed that so much workhas been done in twelve months, even though you're standing on the back ofthe giants, it's no small task to just take their code and make it work for awhole new system. So m. You know Matcidos to you UM. Is there anything anything we should easked or anything you want to tell our audience before we ave wrappd this up wife and that's Paro Mychat! That'sthat's! I really appreciatio questions in thecomments you know. That's. You know a lot tof work ahead of. If and we wantto be part of the th the success, I do sad m n when thetechnology is Greadi, we want to be there. We want to be the ines who havethe most readisolution out there that' what I tryin to do. So, how can theyfind sagramiles, and how can they find your your? You know, Repos, and how canthey? How can they find you, Michael Right? You know. So it's a website isfiveo miles, Bot Il an siler miles, dot, aisle and M Oou rechme Soemai can say Michael at Sanonaod,isle and h. You know or NDEVELOPDR documentation and h. You know, give Hoe, ripositors, justga com, ANAIA,mouth and all thi o sauce, all the cold alpens Os. We have no close saucesoftware, so everything's open to us. Everything is out there in the open andyou know to get on. Tonodow may have become a graditator to do anything ojust go to website and uh and go home there. That's awesome, that's awesome! I lovewhat you're doing keep it up. I hope to see more innovation coming out of yourgroup, so yeah and, as always, you can...

...find me at Colankuche Shey, that'sCollin, cuse on twitter and cory, who is unfortunately unable to attend this.This interview, Um, is at Corpetti, Tatcor, petty ontitter, and you coaldfind us on how she get out Tha stream thanks micel it as a really great greatout learning about sumout.

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