Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 39 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #39 - Patrick McCorry - State Channels

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

We have the great honor of speaking with Dr. Patrick McCorry, lecturer at King's College London and expert in cryptocurrency research. This conversation focuses on state channel research. We go over the latest and greatest in that field, what advancements have achieved, and what is yet to be done. It's exciting to learn from someone with such an extremely deep knowledge on the subject of state channels!

Links:

  • https://twitter.com/paddykcl
  • https://nms.kcl.ac.uk/patrick.mccorry/

Wow intery cindwork welcome to hashing it out APOGASP forretolkd to the ATTECH intevators behind blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds toget at why and how peoplebuild this technology. The problems they face along the way come, listenand learn from the best in the business. You can join teuir racks Bo back everybody episode, Thirty NineHashing out as always m your host doctor, Cuarry,petty and IAM. Here with my trusty co host, Concuche, say hello, every bodyhello ever abought it since they, you have an ice guest, a smartguest atdoctor, fellow Gh d, but this one actually has a PGD in cryptalcurrencies e. that's the cexact, correct title ofat his phdn, but he'sone of the first I say to go s PhD in this technology. Acter Patrick accuarydo want o start us off by giving us a quick introduction as to how you gotinto the space introduced to what you're currently working on yeah. So I got introducedin this psback in twent, an thirteen. So I took this chatography Modile de myundergraduate ancuntagramy was the hardest Mogil I took, but it was reallyexciting because you know cryptos like Wizar dre and then, when I discoveredphotography, I met my soon to be advisor and I said Pone. How I want todo a PhD in this area. Can Yo help me with that, and then he told me aboutthis thing called Bekcoin. That's bing used in the dark. We, this called thiscrypto currency and I shl go look at it. So I went on these Blo clotes, the newsarticles. I went in the Chotrooms, you know Beondad Bequin wizzards and I sortof just got hooked. I mean there's not very much copography ind it. So thatwas a bit of a waste, but back then you know it was, is no weird Internet moneythat nobody took seriously so yeah. That's why I got into this Abeus inover the past five years, it's just being so exciting the see to seo theevolution of it like, for example, when I started my PhD there were twoprofessors who warned me against it. They say putty you're, a tolenderstudent Ou o you could have a really good PhD. Why are you wis and your timeand this w Internet money that no one's going to take seriously then Dur, myVivo Yeah Yeahdr, my five of one or two years ago on of the seain Professor DeuMagzom, he said Putty, you are right, you know you're. Now you CA, Este Rit,I I'll vemigated yeah. I got the the other one that never acknowledged it,but tha one of them did- and I was so happy about that. So I I just gotreally lucky in terms of the topic I mean back, then there were very fewpeople doing this. I think there was like four or five real papers in thearea Yentis over the years. I guess I'vejust been. I think nowadays, a' more mostly focus lare too skimmyng a ALLGMprutocals and I've just been trying to work out. You know what is this goingto look like in five years time? You know it is off Chan going to take ColWir, the lighting network, Gak Golf of Blomoteogolf and how, with all thesesort of work together, I think a common misconception about lar two solutionsis that they're competing and that one size fits all for a lot of them and Ithink that's the exact opposite case for a lot of these things, and you'vepointed this out in some of your recent papers like one of the applicableapplications of state channels and like what, like, what type of you know,maybe social contexts or engagements between people are appropriate forthese types of solutions, and not one sized tits all, and in fact, more oftenthan that, we'll probably see a combination of these things in actualpractice. Further down the line, do you agree with that? Yes, so let me Hook. Could I take that away?So I think there's like two or three competing solutions. I mean, when I say,competing they're, not really competing I'll, get to that. There's ovchnchannels where the idea of thees others, these small group of parties, two threefour people and they just want to run a smart contract locally among themselves.They don't want the intract of the network. They don't want to painttransaction fees. They do want the block. littand see you know we don'twant to wet around for ten minutes, for your transactionl Yo get onfirmed, sothey do this in e ofciin channel. So that's really exciting. You knowthere's instant fhenolity, it's really fast and it's actually free for peopleto run the first application for this was payments. You know I every time,maybe I have a payment channel of you troop. They send me a killabite. I givethem a Satashi Ma can do this at rap the speech. So that's the idea of achannel. That's one solution. People thoe working on Hayman channels or forpayments steer, chunnels so far, tendle more applications to come do autions,boker, Rocky Ber, scissors, techtoctoe and I'll get to that in a bit. I guessthe other competing solution is more called a commithion ore, basically ofthis naucust tooll operator. So everyone here could be one today youcould run hiscommitshe and, and the idea is that they just listen fortransactions. There's thousands of...

...users. They send me all theirtransactions ine. I do a chack point on the blockchain, so I commit thethousands of transactions now at's really ixciten about these commitchions.As that. Well, there's not instant. You know you have to wait for the checkpoint. It's all off Chin and there's this no cestulent operator who's justin charge of you know confirming transactings and reading payments. Sothere are the two men oftan flavors at the moment of Jin Channels for a smallgroup of parties on this Committean as a NA CASTUA oporator. But you cansupport millions of users. Then that's more pe Osible, O eerfer to I lasocorrect Ewell, now ieatherium space Yeahstis Pernpius, and this is actuallywhy I'm really excited for layer to an etherium. The issue in Bicoin for threeor four years is that every time they tried to build paymentchannls. You know, for example, the very first payment channels of one way:Payment Channel from Alasthe Balb AAs onsancoed, the Bob, and they don't goback, but the issue there was that one its one way and two there's an expirytime. So it has the expired by time tea. They removed the expiry time on theporbidratonal payments. We need to get the prutocol navel. It looks likethey're sort of trying to beat that Qinan sumision to make do something:Biin really doesn't Bote da and that's actually really frustrating from aprodocalled tevalobted protocal design perspective where the interiom world,with these mart contracts, it's so much easier to build theses, known castudio,lay or two forte culs paymen chunnels are really easy. No cristodio optionsmark contracts are really easy, and now we can build Stelpik PLOSMA. That isjust not possible. EUAIN. Today, you see. Do you see any type of a future development? I mean the historyhas shown us that changing potical level, things inside Bitcoin is quitedifficult or slow or turns into a contentions heartfork of some sort d.You see them moving forward, andto being able to do these types of things. So the issue today, Imbetquin, is thatwe have the lightning network and that's really exciting N, there'sthirty thousand chunnels out there. People appear to be using it, butbecause of the way becoins designed lightning doesn't really work that wellso one you know. If I of you and I agree, a payment, we've already chosen,the tranmsaction fe we're going to use in the future. If there's congestion, Iconcluse a channel anymore 'cause, the fee isn't good enough. The other issueis that every ultrum prudical as sons, there's jus watch tower or ther partyEam Watch watch the channel. An nearbaha Wastaw doesn't really work inbicoin today and that's just because of the way lightnins designed and becauseof a side o fact of Bedcoin's current model. So I think fixing that issue isgoing to take two years in Bitcoin. Can you go inwit that issue? Actually it'sa little bit yeah yeah, I ginit. So this is how lightning works in it. OkayLightnin has two componants there's a channel between two parties. They cando payments back and forth. The second component is a condition: Al Transferand not to use to synchronize a payment across several channels. Now the issuecomes down to the chunnel itself. How do we do a payment and lightning? Whatwe do is the following: There's two parties and they busically- maybeallast- wants Tho payball Bubin the first step. They agree, the new stateof the Chine. You know the new boluns of alitenbalb. They besigned they Bivagree to the new T, their hobbi. The second step is that they need a revokethe old stant to do that. They lookgn some Scashi secrets now because of thistwo STAP processive, committing to the new TT unrewoken, the old one. Well GEactually end up a is one current state, that's Voolid and the CONV Berl costorthe network at any time- and now you end up with tha, set orevokedtransactions. If these frunsactons are ever broadcoster, the network, you knowis an old trunsaction that should never get in so the way lightning gets around.This is that if I broacost an old revoke transaction there's now thisdispute prusser Tine period for the counterparty Bob to prove that it wasrevoked anm, prove that it was invollid. We call this a justice transaction. Soif I brocossin stit Bobcan broad case, a justice transaction proved to theblockon that it was revoked. henalized me and steal all the coins in thechannel. Now. The issue here is that, because of the way that transacts oMoto works in Bekcoin, you neeither keep this secret around or ther's. Justthis transaction around for every single channel up dit, you know wediathousand payments as the user Ave the store of one thousand secrets. So asthe user, I can comprass this a bit, but iy want to hire a third party watchtower. They can' just hold the secret. You know they come Bro. They can sand etransaction t e Mai behalf Tha Prot, the secret on the lace, so thatswattower house, Ta story just is transaction forst sying every singlesteed obdiate in my Chontl vity, a thousand payments. They have the soreone thousand justice transactions. Sois order ran scaly hhh and that's reallyfustrating from you know, thes. I IM perspective for in a theory, and wedon't have that problem at all, but...

...thereis a sot of process, I'm just just a riff off that a littlebit. There's a set up process here already and innately in lightning.Could it benefit from a zero knowledge, H, storage, S, R of your knowledge,pree ATV? I don't think there an always s theright tool here. What you really want to do is, if you consider the that ofthe channel was as basically both parties, bolums Yo know all OS. Hisbolancs involved pollens Thatat's, the steate of the Chunnel. You know thatshould be separate from the transaction, we're right now in Beuin. In theory, anthey're both combined yep, so I was being called there. Sobasically, the issue was that the steed in the transaction or co intertwine ocombine in Bitcoin. If the watch tar wants the broak Cos, teiostit orrevucus Stt, they actualy have the Broadasa presign transaction where theywere separateed. You know the watchd tower cassanity transactionw. Theyrequired information in R, then broadcots after the network, a loa wedo in Erium. Is this like cotingent upon Allcutxo base miles? No, sothere's a scrap from upcod, you could use cal, maybe up Chack, Sak massy'sverify or something where you could Pud in a presignd message, and then thetransaction knew how avalued it that oright. Now that's not in Bikcoin Oka, that's good to know them. Well, what do you like par like? I think it 'd be interestingto know what are good applications of state channelsyeah? Well, let's get into state channels. First, I wesould Av talkedabout payment channels. You playng here so like what? What is the State Channel?Actually, that's apparently based off Yourspc talk a very complicatedquestion. It is ha state channel and I don't want your answer. I kindof wantto know like from the you know how things have evolved to the point wherewe are today and where you're, where you think we're going with US yeah. Letme give you some contect for that. So last year we organized a master workshop called you know off the Chan because w when I basically this timelast year, I was in Caffee Nero and I was like there's seven teams working onSta Chunnels, but we don't talk to each other. You know we have no winteraction, OT, each other, so whydon't we all go to Berlin. We go tothis conference and we present our solutions one after another. So then wecan all work out what we're working on e t like what we're doing differently.So we all Cam Niber an Inewe, did our talks. When I watched every talk, Irealized we'Rell, basically doing the exact same thing. Weus have differentterminoloty and terminology and definitions, so it was actually reallyhard for us all. Tho communicat ECAUSE, we Doan't agree on a common language,so that was like basically why I think we don't have the same definitions butat a high level, stear chunnels rare all to see him. The idea that there's agroup of Parties and parties, they're small and what they can do is lock upcollateral on the block ce you Kn W. I lock in coin you lock in coins and nowthat we're locked in coins we've opened the channel. Now. What I could do inthis channel is axally install a smart contract. This could be a bottleship gime. Thiscould be chess. This can be TEC, Oto or an auction, and now you and I can startrenning this smart contract off the Chin locally between ourselves withoutever interacting with the network and not truly exciting, and then, if,basically, if one person stopes, cooperating, Tho know they stoppdsigning stead up toits, then I can trigger a dispute. I can close theChano and I could redeploy the smart contract on the block chain and justfinished the execution there at a high level that roughly what most people aredoing, there's just a way of offloading or the burden of trading personal statebetween two parties and Ye. The fact that it has a dispute process is whatmakes itvible I okay, something happened. I can take it to the blockchame to be the arbiter of this situation and continue there. Yes, Ithink, there's two ways that egeneralize that I think one all ofCHMD prudocals the way they skill the network is just by reducing the load n.We don't do much more. We just reduce the load and optimistically. We nevertalk to the network. This dispute proces is common between most oftameproticals and the dispute proisays, it's just near the guarantee integrity.You know if one of US stoped cooperating, we can always guaranteethe Chane or run as Expectev. The smart contract will always run attitute. Iknow you can never submit at involvatit, for example, we're playing chance andyou try to pretend you one. The disput protest guarantees this integritybetween us and for the smart contract, so just to be clear, our state channelsintended to be single party or doll party. I guess twopeople talking to each other. I, as all the examples up to this point, havebeen pretty much like one on one, but is there a multipartysolution to this? Is there some yeah? So the work we've done on sprite andKason an all of our STAACHONA research. We can do multi party out of the box sobut the problem with the echarnels is that what apblications actually makessense- and this comes back to- I guess-...

...to the overginal question- and this issort of ging to hopefully allude to why Multiparti doesn't always make sense.The requirement for a paint steer Chunnel was ot one. All the parties areNein in tevouts. Maybe you can hot a party mateer on, but that's a lengthyprocess and two every party has to Remean Ol Line inwilling to sign steerd,op tets to wroite the entire opblications lifetime, the worpmanpoker. I beat you a poker. You probably have te Remano line and keep signen TATUPAT. Even though you have already lost it's very hard for us to kick you outof the trum. You may not just cooperate with us to do that, so that's liks, the men issues, te sterchannels and there's actually restricts the type of opplications. We can do. Ithink for me, I sort of have a different opinion that those people, soa lot of the state o companies are working on rawpaper scissors, Tek actogo sort of the Damotheir freemeworks in software, but I don't know many peopleyou want to play: tectop toon, the blockchin. U It that Real Capino Gamesare probably the most viable options for whosas e thing S. there's money inthe line and people are insetovise to stay there and also win money. Exactlyso actually Casino Games is one of the first oplications of Betcoyn, so TasiDase was from twenty eleven running be, and I got really popular in Bat coinand I think maybe Luke Juniors started conplaining at them and they took itoffto in yeah. I rally remember that, but yeah the Casino Games can makesense. But actually I there's this new problem for Casino Games as the CasinoI have tho lockup colloterol and that's the Maxim Clob Cladero. You can win asa player, so this is like a Pook, maybe like a gambling game I', have the Protdon a thousand dollars as t a casino, and you can only Wen up to a thousanddollars and then either I have to put more money in or we OS Chana. Whateverthat's Li, a practical limitation there. I think what St Channels are going tobe really useful for sort of like auctions. You know, maybe you want ababy, Google or something adverpios, an rar time they getin, really lightningfass. Auctions use taat channels, that'll be really OL and no one's everdone that yet. But I also think thit is really simplifies: building payment,Chiles, it's so most easier to build a payment channel, fiina, Tiochano, Ande,really coon, fair, Estne, pruticals and topbecause. Really a payment channel isa state channel, but it's a very spcitic like Y. U it's specific targetusecase when, when the reason, when I hear the word State Channel, I Ithink general state channel because there's there's J Ean, just creating astate channel. I something you coald do, but creating this general framework forbuilding any state channel is kind of the ultimate goal here. So so it's Kinda interesting to me thatthat H, you know Um that we keep talking about thesepayment channels when, ultimately, all they're doing isexchanging state Um. So the reason I brought up e multi party thing isbecause I kind of wanted to know if- and this is something that's Kindainteresting me is when I think scaleability I- I don't think one onone perio top peer. A lot of people are still kind of looking at that side ofthings, but I look at this sort of plared approach. Where were N, noteverybody's, going Na want to directly have interaction with the block chainitself and that things are just going to want to start building on top ofeach other and the only way I see that we cal validate that kind of stuff asby having as many parties as possible, participating in later to direct layer,interaction with the blockchain solutions and having people, then creattheir own state channels from state channels, and I'm wondering is thatvision, something that's actually possible. I think yes, and no so I thinksteeturnals as their design today are not goingto, be fantastic for millionsof users, I mean an isolation, they only work for two or three parties. Youcan build this network of channels, but theyhave they come up with Bunc ofproblems in terms of picadolagap trying to build Virtua challels erunsmartcontracts. I think we were going to Ho as a combindiation, so first athing oneof this Chinobeus network like lightning or Esen Ste Chunnels, butthen I think we're going to have those commiteans coming back like plasma,anno, Cusse and stark pay and thitw'll be for millions of users in the idialworld. Anyone could run a commitseand. Anyone could run APLASMA hop. You don'tneed to lock up any money to run a Classao. I think TAER WE'LL end upgetting millions of users, so moot payments will probably happen on plasma,and this chunnelbeous network will just be there. The transfer collins from onehub to the next ub to the next tub to the next house. That's rort of myfuture vision. OPALL. This is going isee. Would state channels be able to hookinto these these uh like plasma chains or something likethat h. You could run a state chunnel on a ploz machine as well. So one ofthe problems that we talked about with Georgias and a previous potcast was thefact that smart contracts, weren't running on woed, wouldn't be able toexecute directly on a plasmachine, um exclaim. Why Oka? For so the prom ofall the PLOSMA approaches right now, and I've already told these guys. Thisis that the plosmacean relies on the...

...utaxil model. So all the Plov machineslooked like that coin. Ar Outaxo Limited scriptin facility. They don'tmake sense for anyg smart contracts. That's really frustrating from a designperspective, so they're USINGL, Eron, two hundrer Dita structures there, butthey really want to use it something Ike nocust. So new cousis done myArthur girbis part of liquidity network. I went to really cou there as thatevery checkpoint they do in the Blockchn on it commits to the list oftransactions, but it also commits to the steed of the network as anaccompious model. Just like a theorium n, some of the Agnocuz has much morepotential for ranny smart contracts, our buildings, taad channels, an topoff 'cause. Now I could commit togh the state of a Chano. I could theendo adispute on the blockchin and then witdraw my channel away from thelockaway from the blocjen and then running on a perio sower, saying,basically that the method in which they're buildingminimum viable plazma as actually may hurt them in the future for Buildinspart contracts. On top of the 'cause of the UTX Obase, they started with YepItas interesting 'cause T it was a part of the original paper, the tooth, the three things that thatthat were interestidg about that paper is the courted rule. So you could go. classmachines have plas Wich Chans haveplazmachaines Um Jast. They it was all. Was it or she wasn't threeis right now,which is in the case anymore right. T E had a Dayha to throw that out and the m the executionof smartcontracts going all the way down and up Um these. These layers of plas machines, ajust just having them on the main chain, was kind of an essential part of that,and then lastly, was the fact that it used utx O was a major major sellingpoint Um originally, and now it sounds like the actual that that actually iscause for the other parts of the vision, sort of degrading overtime. Yeah, that's at exact, yes, so there's a guycalled so normally arthur gets most of the attention ace. The student RamiRois light years ahead of most people in our community he's really pumpingout these amusement gapers for Pasma Chins, and I don't think he gets enoughcredit for that F. You actually read what they're doing I have moan in ayear or two thatd probably help some more contracts en yo know on MOLCstodio commit sin wow. Maybe we should get hem on the show, but uh, but okay, so wev kind of gottegone onto the we're talking layer too. Obviously, butyour your specialty is actually state channels. So Um can you tal describe tosome of the work that's being done in this space and the work that you'redoing fir, stin channels, Mi guess a lot of the work is sort of. I do describe staationalso in terms ofresearch at the moment, building the tee chunnel is't hard. We all knew howthe bill stayat trunnels and AC Lik, the St Chunnel people tought meetingsrecently, and what we basically discoveris that there's all these fiveor sixteens doing exactly the same thing. The ELBIC might minor twik onhow their protocol works, Thoug, basically, building vy similar frameworks. So maybe that's good from a compatibility perspective, but it alsodoes annoying that we have several teams building the same thing. You knowwe only need one teamg to build the actual fram work. So from a research perspective, we knewhow the bills staat channels- and we contributed to that in twenty seventeenthawas Mostondr Miller. I helped Andrew with it. He proposed one of the firstdaunno constructions, it prits and then over the summer me and a bunch ofstudents tougt, you know that's. Actually, we knew how the buills staofchannels, let's go, build one. Let's go bottle shap this two player, BoterlieTuplayer Termba scheme and Iud- actually see her. Well, you know stechunnel's work, you W do they actually live up to their clems and what wediscovered in that paper was that you know Sta. Chanlelge are really exciting.You know instant finoloty free execution, but they do not a scale out.You know they do mat as run smart contracts that are not alreadyreasonable. The execute on the Blockchin, so bothership didn't work ina ste chunnel. That was like the outcome of that paper. was. It wasreally frustrating, but also really a bit of humbling as well. We Nowunderstond why they dot work. So now the research questions are sort of one.You know: How can we insh? Can we make a game likebottership work, Offcun and that sort of the ghynthereticproblem that we're trying to solve now? So when you say, doesn't work yea,let's describe battleship and let's talk about why that particular gamedidn't work yeah? Yes, this is really cool. Actually, okay, so you're ovgoing to be my guinea pigs, perfect hokeey, Oto, ship ars, a two playergame. You Know Alis and Balb. They set up the board. So what they do is thatthey flee a ships on the board and the CURTER party Conseia. Now every turn,maybe Allis will take a shop, a one of Balb bottleships. You know, as I Ithink it's Tamby ten grid and, as will say Bob, I want to attack sale a one NYBOB has to reveal that either no bottleship was set Kno, maybe Il US Havwater. Maybe a bottlefship was hit, or...

...maybe Ala sank, his buttleship. Nowthis is actually quite a long game. If you play the entire bottleship game,there could be over two hundred transactions back and forth. Ellnobries, there's probably seventy or that's a lot of moves going back andforth. Now the issue rises in the followingscenario: Alis puched on a hundred dollar. Okay, so all of s involved theycooperate. They knock money into the STICHANO. They install the bottlershipgame off Chian. They lock a hundred dollars each and the bottership game,and now they're both committed to plan bottership off Jan, my Bob Saysi don'twant to cooperate in the channel anymore, so Bab refuses to sign anystad up ton non. What always has to do is that Alic has a trigger dispute,redeploy the bottleship game on the block Chin and just finish the entirefotership game on the bloce. What s? Why is that a Bodcato? Why is that aproblem? Okay, so whany. Would you ask you is to Followeng? Would you guys paytwenty four dollars in transaction fees and would you wit around for sixteenhours? The finish the bottlership game on the block Tun O Hundred Sixteen hours on Ol wo can withhold these types oftransaction, so you can particulatly, you know, keep it going for longer,epending on whether or not some when o other Updattho next tot. Exactly so,would you do that? Would you wait around sixteen hours pay twenty fourdollars to win a hundred dollar BACC? No, it just sounds like a designershouldbe. I mean l e beaming that, like if you, if you deside your contract,such a way that she can't she can't just instantly, you know withdraw aftera certain period of non. Not You know like thry day that could be a toochantacton chution in other ord, almost like speech chest or you have to gowithin a certain amount of time frame and then its not thin, then it et yeah.The ental issue is that if your plan is on the block Chan, you od to give someleeway for block in Blockley and seeing hm Yo a Te, give some time period forthe transaction to get Inobloctian, and that may be five minutes or two minutesor three minutes. Butever riskl, inte tolera how long it takes a transactionly goodin the blockchin on this turnbist tobocuss drag out his you know three orfour minutes every time yeah, but she ets a a dispute to theplot chain right, can't that trigger the timer, where he he could say. I I'mactually saying she's not disputing. Now they don't be a griefing issue.Obviously, because then she could keep doing that and then he could, he couldsay no and then she could keep doing that and he could say no and then andthen basically the fors o draw. Essentially so one of the fundamentalissues is that if there's a dispute in the channel, you know the Channo breaksdown and you have the Reepoyeto Gev him to the Blockchi there's you can you'ecan identify who triggerd the dispute. We know alltis did it, but weconvetinguishd why it happened. Maybe maybe Bob signed the stad up did.Maybe Alice is pretending in never did we COM actuall real? We can'tunderstand we con' figure out why the channel broke down to now, basicallyuseis defalt to the block chain, and you have the finish to give hem thereand then, whenever way you design, your opplication is how you could get outearly ut. Imagine Firsta scenarios or Games are going to be quite draconianif they ever get implemented in the fact that, like if something instituted,then the other person wins. That's the easiest way to settle a dispute andthat insendifizes someone to make sure that they pay attention or they run therisk of losing their money. If tather Interneta turned off or something yeah yeah, so she could submit a dispute tothe chain and then, if he actually is able to prove non some S, but he can'tactually prove that there was no reason what the reason why you know like that:She's wrong, the Contecera OCON, why the distret happend yeah, becausethere's two parties, and so there's really no way to actually make a proofthat the other person received the information that you are actuallysending and that's not your fault Um, to rns problem. I think I have hoy that,like even in coding these simple games, we ik we go in thinking that Oh this'llbe a simple game. The rules are really co exemple, but the difficulty is notgoing to game itself. It's in trying to keep or code or protect people from themost prickish possible scenario. It itits like evens thereare, always aproblem, and we have to try and build governess rules and mitigations forbeing people being pricked. A that's for the difficulty lies, it'snot the actual gay mechanics and the only way to solve that particularproblem. Still thinkng about the specific issue is, is with a thirdparty which defeats the entire purposes exacty. So that's why bottleship didn'twork as an application, so t e. The fundamental issue was that bottershipdoesn't work on the Block Chin. You can put it in the steet channel, but theworst kios scenario is. I give the plan of Planon the bloption anyway...

...o. This is where a combination of thetwo approaches between say, H, whatwas the term you used twor plasma, at's,Mosmetic mician commit Chan. So this Iwere to two approach is kkat kind ofbe a good marriage maid in heaven. So the the commit chain is the arbiter.It's a third party, but it's a consensust third party, meaning thatyou can actually, ultimately, ideally, we would have more than one personbeing validator on these kind of networks. Right now, I believe thatthey're still pretty centralized but UM. Ultimately, anybody could kindof jointhe validator pull. I would essentially aideally you kno hope for him, and thenyou could actually just submit your no fee transaction to the state channeland you're no feew transaction too. The e the comit chain that would act as thethird party arbiter for the the game. And then, if you have a dispute, theactual third party can actually verify that you smit it and then that wouldremove the fee issue and the griefing issue. It would handle the lockups andthen you could do the state channels on top of the commit chains and that wouldactually provende these issues that you're talkn about right. I think thatgives the hope this Actra respic extra power of arbitration, which maybe it's a good thing. You know,maybe you need a third party watcher for this. The actually resolved theissue. You need a hope, but I think the ideal case would be. I mean if you wantto use a commitson like plasma. The ideal snorthat doesn't exist right nowis a y'd run the entired game on Plasba you wouldn't even need to tear child.You know, Yeu just run it on this commitse and and periodically this Hebcanmisty all the transactions on the blockchain and the currenstead of thegame, but that doesn't exist right now. That sounds actually non ideal, becauseyou would have this large growth in the commitchene to me. So when I, when Iwhent, I hear that I see like this committion, which is supposed to be athin very thin thing, would suddenly have millions and millions and millionsof store transactions on it. Just because of two people, interacting. Youknow what I mean yeah. This Gamebin only have twenty twohundred transactions, but in a real world scenario, we're looking at maybepotentially millions of transactions between two parties, which means nowthe Commitchan would would need to deal with that. So we don't want that on the commitchain, but it does enable pruning on the Commitchene, meaning that, oncethat transaction is kind of closed, you could finalize the state and then youno longer have to store those transaction that transactional historyan the actual actual chain itself. It's easierly it's more easily pruned thanthan on a it onosly finalize this to one transaction we spend ie, I theblock on nw custom, Pazmacash, Soin Klasmacash. When you give me a coin, Ineed to have the entire transaction history. I nee to convince myself thatyour authorizees span that coin and send me it and no cust, because atthackpoint you know, confirms the Ste. It owe have the look at the stiat. Idon't need the entire transaction history for any particular coin. Theydon't hace to have a concept of a coin Wer it Ay, never bolence. I've always thought this is kind offunny. Se I've been saying this as like. If I had to explain watching in onesentence, it's mircalizing shit and try and findways to agree upon it and that's at's. That's literally whatwe try and figure out how to do in incredibly complex ways and, ironicallylike when you started out getting into bidcoin or doing your Ph biccoininitially was because the cryptography was interesting, but it turns out.Toquan only really use the digital signatures and a few other things thatu now help ith the Chotography, but as we grow and grow and grow andbuildhings letter to solutions. The way in which we use portography to try andvercalize Shit and agree upon it as becoming more complicated. And it'sit's quite novel. It's really novelists so exciting. Imean what you're doing is actually there's actually like one of thetranoffs between you know, e challenge, responsbasically in like plasma youcommit to a checkpoint and that's basically mircle tree and there's atallent response. FROTO call right. Anyone could prove it invollid. Sothat's really exciting that sort of works because of financial incentives,you're not going to have a INVILLE checkpoint, 'cause you're, going tolose money for doing that were a snark and starks. We removed ou problemaltogether, Nothi hard core choptograph, you Nowamma, you get complete integrityof the checkpoint, and now you have this increased cost every timyediatecheckpoint and the question is: Do you really need to teerand all these proofsand starks when actually, the blockchun already provides es integrity for youand a Mus topecost, if not mean anycents, there's alwayshis traitoffs, and I think now we're coming to the point of finding whatapplications need, what trade offs r than building the technology around itto fit. The social context yeah, which is something that hasn't been able t tobeen done before, is something that I think is like. This is my mainmotivator for, studying and pushing the like the furthering of thiseTechnologieis, because for the first time we're we're N we're not forced toput all social contexts or...

...relationships into a single into asingle hole which, as like, basically Centraliz in frostructure, were able tomodel things around how the relationship should act and picked thecorrect technology to Tomimic that, as best as possible yeah? How d? What do you see? Where do yousee this going in the next five years? You Sayd that's part of what kind ofwhat you're interested in this is like how theses Developonteterni want to seetheres non custodio payment network where all the nodes ore only trustedthe repayments me could use any PA week cs any Yo know operated commitchend, wecould use any amon channel and if I want to recoins anywhere in the world,I could do that and I copy centric for doing that. I think that'll be soexciting and I think that's in the realm of doing now I mean theCommitstns Chn stuff don needs more research, fron work, but I think that'swithin the nxt five years, we'd actually see a real life alternative,no crustodio censorship, PESISTM pamen network, but anyone can join an operatthat would be so exciting. You see that as a evolution of something thatcurrently exists or something that's going to have to be built from theground up differently. I think, given the technology we havenow, we could build it. I think H. Technically, we can do it in terms ofregualation and social responsibility, an every other obstacle out there, askdTe family block right now. Technically, we can do it er, where cand people start doing this.So Li e, here's like we want to encourage education, but we also onencourage participation, yeah, there's a lot of people listenin this programwho would like to start participating in this sort of research might getinspired by this. Where do they go? How do they get started for research? Isort of followe the Cambregn, our philosophy. Reeses, get your Hans DirtyEsa start reading a papers and trying to self a problem you were interestedin. So that's that's really like obstractto say so. I think one people can do is one so I teas thescript OC currency,closs and all the lactors are all lied. So I've been doing this this semesterfrom January omward and in London, our biggest cost as three hundred and fiftypeople, eiehty percent developers. So that's really exciting. I' recommendthey look at those lactures on the content 'cause. I always had adresearch proms that need to be solved in any of the areas. There could be onegood place where they could learn about a summary of an area so, for example,wecover offjam, proticals wecover problems surrounding anchns calability,that's won't P, thine OA discover research problems, then, after that Ithink, as mosty talk in the people, so once you've, wotch lactures you'vediscovered a problem. You've done some leg work. You know you've tried tosolve it yourself, nothing. You start talking to people. An ever resercer canrecognize that you've Don'e work in the area or that you're trying to solvetheir problem and you're eager. They tend to reply and actually get back toyou. I think anything. Isn't it. You know someone' US say as O have thisidea you haven't done anything about it. You know, there's nothing ready to talkabout. So what's the biggest key problems, we need to solve right now for crypto currencies altogether. Laor tofor layer too, I think the PLOSMA stuff has t e those research problems. At themoment. I think channels are quite in terms of constructing the channel aswell understood. How do you build a charnobeous network and how do you rootPaymentvincacroft, the network? I think that needs a lot more research 'causeright now, thee reding, Ol grioms, are terrible that are all being e Umthirdparty watchers, the one thing we haven't alluded to it all is thatall cmprudicals. Have this new security assumption that you have to be alllying synchronize with the network and you have the watts out from Mollesdisputes what we need to see build or third party watchers, and that's whatwe're trying to do? Actually. So I can talk about that later. One of ourresearch papers was called Piza was: is it contable there, a party you couldhire and if he ould teach you you coand make them lose a security deposit as weneed third party watchers for this network vaccine Ou know, run and workand operating practice, and then for the Commitsean work. We need goodconitheans. I mean the the NEWCUS Stuf, I've spokbos pretty good, but that hassome problems. You know y transaction's not actually confirmed for thirty sixhours. That's pretty annoying in terms of you know, trusting the HOB, theplasma stuff needs more work 'cause. Now I have this store Thi' mossivetransact in history. It plazmakash! No, I not a really good assumption to have.I did te commit she and stuff in terms of constructions and building it, aswere all the really cood researches at the moment, if your prutical designer,so let's talk about pizza, then Um wh. What is that? What a e you guysdoing? What I shyeah Supiza is is accountable. Thir party, watcher,STHAT'S A say: allivsinvalve they have a payment. Channel Alis has a thousanddollars, and now she wants to go offline. You know she could close thechannel, but maybe she does Mona closes the child. Maybe she wants to keep thisagonfree pree days may bee his part of the lightning network for the ideais Ye.Have these long lived channels that never close so what she could do wasHirrpiza Se sends Pisa. You know a commitment to the letter stap then shecan go off Li. If Bob tries to close...

...the channel on an earlier step, youknow, maybe he tries to reverse te payment and get the thousand dollarsback pease. As you responden, you know, Alis his behalf. Pesil sand telitestproved UTPA. Bobb is cheating and then all it is guarantee to get her thousandcoins. So this is call a watching service. So Pisa is accounpable in thesense that of pies of cheets alls could come online. Se can see the Pie Ajedet.Then he could prove to the Pieza contract, the peas atcheated. If thepies of contracts convinced the third party gets penalized and theylose some security deposit for Toin, that is that a etherium base thingOrlik C wheres, ESA, so Piza was initially designed for state charnels.You Know Wat a theory in mind and the accomntability bet works the bast onatheorium. So now W we're looking at s. We got funding from the TheorimFondiation, the Ther Community Fund and the research intitude. You know thegood peas and the practice so piza actually worked for Mustov CamProtocols. It worked for Bickin nightin network, it workd for a theter andpayment channels. Estat channels wo would work on Spangchin right andcounterfactual sevconnect several of the projects that are building that andit also worked for PLAZMA A necust. You know I, the APLOSMA HP THEY TRI tostell money from you, peas, Igemen, spon in your behalf, anprove thecheckpoints invollid. So that's really exciting. Actually, piezes is work foranyof GAM prutical, that's awesome! That's pret has sa good, but I guess so.This is something that just dawned on me. How does how do these kind of solutions work forprivate coins like Manero like how do they? How do they work with these kindof things? Or do you need this transparenty in order to execute usallyour two solutions? Properly? That's a good question. So I think ifrominding from like maneur an repring signatures, you could probably do thatstoll. You know you just lock up the coins and you say these coins arelocked up until actually, I guess minerewas quite hard.Isn't it? I think what you maybe Youw'll losesome privacy there. I think Youl love the identify that itis a channel and that the coins are be incruded and then the coins are takenout and then you do another ring signature to get more. You know,privacy from that H ti, don't think it works at Hem, anarrow out of the box. Actually that's quite hard, and actually one of them isnumerouss that, like lar, two doesn't give you privacy. So a lot of people advertise like thelightning network as thei privacy, preserving solution, but that's notactually true seewhat. Do I mean by that it can aljis give payments quitewell, but one issue wis that I was involved of a payment channel and Iwant to work out. You know the current Balins in the channel. Nodoes Alic haveone coin: The's Bob Have One coin. What I can do is a simple condition totransfer. You know I tri to se a conditional transfor with them frommaybe ten coins. Nine points eight point, seven coints when they accept mycondition: Ol Transfer. I now know how many coins about Alasos, so you can leveryse these techniques asa side channel that try to break some privacy there. I don't think lat or toogives you privacy out of the box. So there's there's. This actually is apretty important question, our important important topic. What isprivacy UMTHERE's, there's logical privacy, which is basically what Manerois it's it's a layer of one privacy solution in evase. You know that thatis that or layer, one laers Ero, whatever you want to call it. It isthebase base in its core is privacy and its network layer privacy, which isthings like Lokey network, are trying to accomplish, where they're trying todo that, that sort of stuff, but there's also institutional privacy, andthat's what I think that lay or two solutions can provide, meaning that yetonly if they layor layar themselves. Deep- and this is why it's important tome that the court of rules brought back into the subject matter, bback into acore fundamental like tenant of what a a a Um ging. What do you call it not plaipor is commit chain. Thank you.I got taget used to that word. I'm G, I'm going to drill out on my head afterthis commit chain would would need in orderto provide institutional privacy, meaning that yeah, an institution mightnot have privacy on the baselayer. So you'll know what the ultimate financesof say a m. So basically a m a UM. You know. Yes, you might not so you'll have sometransparency on on the Routchaine, so you'll know what say: Google owns asfar as assets and then Google would have their own layer two solution,which would basically enable say their finance and accounting to maintain thehigh level institutional Um. You know truth of their system and thenyou allocate budgets to the departments that need it and the only way you gainaccess to those particular budgets is through some sort of permissioned chainsystem, United S, permission, sort of...

Asit flow system and D. that's that'swhat I'm really thinking of, but I think privacy in terms of commit chainsand even state channels is that it's almost institutional, but it's not so, for instance, if youmaad a Stak Kennel, you don't know what occurred in that state channel. Unlessyou are a participant of that state channel right, that's that's a type ofprivacy, and so I think it's very important that we we differentiate whatprivacy means, because it's too broad a term to to to actually say that youknow it doesn't preserve privacy because it does. It just depends onwhat your definition or what your usecase of privacy particularly is. Ithink her commit cuns what we normally would consider privacy like if you havea central hope, that's coordinating all the payments. The privacy notion thereis that the hub should not have any idea who's, sending the hoop so who's,Ta, sender, receiver and what value is being transferred as well. So there'stwo solutions that were developed, so this is t e Fir commitsion. This is aHayman charnel, hope, there's a hobe with several channels, and peoplediscovered her to do privacy there. So one's called bulk bol t tnat sort ofMushi design ate the gas rosine cash. So that's has privacy in mind, but thebest of my knowledge bolt only supports a hope with l one leaf channels, an acant join a network. You know the hub confacility of Spasa conditionaltransfers, but that's from the top of my mind. I don't know Ahout's trueOnoug, that's from what I remember off. It did ther almost tumble bit that wasby Ethon Helmet, where its more like a tumbling service where all thetransfers get botched and sand. Yo know back and forth so that were buill. It payment channelsin mind for PLAZMA. So far, no one's really considered privacy from the hubto the best of my knowledge, but I think it's even easier to do there. Ifyou do assume the wholepoint of the checkpoint is that it orderstransactions and that hop doesn't really care what the transactions do. Then I think you could have someprivacy nusion there as well wher, maybe there's just ordering Z, Az costtransactions, Ando they're ordered correctly, then the HB doesn't care,but that doesn't exist. Yet that's more of a you know, future a couple of yearsproblem: taway future work, fwor. Well I mean there's other ways too. Forinstance, smart contracts themselves there's an impractical solution on mainchain, but a proactical solution on Laer two solutions: Laer two networks called moviouscontracts, which Um, which may enable that kind of level ofprivacy that you're talking about but wouldn't work on. The mainchick is stoo costly in the storage, but you could do it totally off chain on layertoo, and it would be completely efficient and more make more sensethere. So, if you consider movie is movie, as is ring, signature approach,so there's two like competing ways: Well, there's a shuffle yohave andparties maddy Fi parties: either they do movis or they all pood coins into ablack box. Then one at a time they take a coin back out or you have a shuffle protocall. Whereyou know you have this: the coins in the bag. You give the each party theyshuffle, I they give it to the next party they shot or the bike, andeventually everyone gets the coins. At the end, I think they're, both thecompeting approaches and much really crudibotate channels is that people can see coins coming in. Theycan see coins going out, but the SHUFFL prodocaller, the mexine protocol is runcompletely optian. So, what's Realli and in fact our engineer Chris Bkland,he build one called ethmix fir, t channel. That was trying to dosomething very similar to this. So the whole point there is at an mix thetumbling protocol, basically free to execute in the bad case. So I'd like to mix it up a little bit here and Chenchtopics quite drastically. You teach a lot of courses. You've beenaround for a long time. You're a professor arguabbly, a BLACAN expert.As far as anyone can be called that nowadays, Yo oechnology hasn't beenaround long enough to have full on experts, UM, Andand e I've taught classes in inblockchain an bitcoin or whatever as well, and I've taken almost all of them that are available,not yours. Yet I will now and I'm quite interested in how peopleapproach this problem to New People from a pedagogical standpoint to trainUm, help it quick easier and to build thefundamental like parts that come together to make this unique technologywork and how it's, how dif differentiates itself from pregous waysof doing things and I'm kinda interested into how like what are yourfundamental tennents to approaching this to the people and I'm assumingthat's changed overtime, because...

...starting with pitcoin Yo, I I used toteach teach people in certain way and as this technology evolved, I kind ofstiwly moved it into different ways. How do you do this? So it reallydepends on the audience. So I mostly teach technical people like developers.No people have never when Ho heard AF blactribut the have no idea. What'sgoing on the way I've been teaching it recently is that first I go overseveral different perspectives, so I lo get it from a Deta structureperspective. You know, why is the Blockson and interest in the otherstructure its because if's, a crepto graphic, daughter log? It just lets merecomputer, databyus, that you already have you send me the blocche and Irecomputer Dodobeus. Now we both have to see imdonates, so io got ane from adtatructur perspective. An is last me computerd out of this. That's it. The second part is distributed systemsO. I guarantee that is the one and only true Bloctchin Howo. I know you haven'tcomputed Arondom blockh and as as given me it for the crack, you know. How do Iguarantee that the blockon I have the DOTABYAS AF computed is actually theseam didabus everyone else in the world has so that's distributed systemperspective, there's a Consentes protocall that allows us to do that. WMuch really exciting as TAT from a distribute assystamt perspective,there's been thirty or forty years of research, where they only considerthree or four computers, C FD and the all try to rec the seam decision,Nacamoto consensus bick when in etheorium flipped the table they cheese.How we completely look at this problem. Basically, what's really cool is thatit paratises liveness, nd tthere's, one minor menting blocks, we'll always keepmaking decisions and the distributidsystem monor and that'sreally exciting. We can condonatee neigh percent of all peers goingoffline o. We can still reace decision. Then after I go through that. I talkabout well now we have this global conceptionlly Thas bulletin board thateveryone has a copy off. What can we build of that? What are the EX excitingopplications there? The first oblication was betcoin. You know we canbuild this financial adger Ti can send you coins and everyone in the world canagree that I sent you coits. Then I talk about a theory. An I say well wasreally excited about a theoryum. Is that, instead of just ponauncartransaction, we hould all deploy programs in this network. Now everyonecan execute Tho sea improve grom. So what can we build with these globalsingle programs in the world? An I tocryptographic protocols, ee, likeautions, eoting s, contracts, Tomagochis, you Hav, Crypto Kitty. Youcan do whatever you want. It's really exciting from ECRY buildingcryptographic protocols. Then I trabout security, you ow! Why is it'sintransand from a security perspective because of the biggest b bog bountiesthat ever existed in our lives? You know forty lines of code, millions ofdollars of oufsets on the line and they keep getting hacked. So that's wher. Istart the lacture I talpetd all these computer sands perspectives, unreallyhighlight wyats and multiple fields. Then I give them a high level overview.You know water keys. Why do we send transactions to this PTEPEER network?Why are the miners competing the solt puzzles? You know. The whole point ofthis puzzle is that we can elect the leader. They can publice a block andtell everyone how to do the SAPACHATIA. You know the minor creates a block theysent it to the network and every single dotabius will beform the EXAMBOTATII.That's the whole point of t e m the miting puzzle, then, after that youknow it's dumb. That's like a rough catlial overview of why this is reallyinterested from a computer sense protector it as very long basic. It'sfield creation, though, because like every single topic, you've discussed isits own sort of field from concensus and you're. Just giving a topicaloverview of very deep fields, and it's it's hard to cover those in any sort ofdetail at this point because th the space has grown so tremendously, withthe same thing as like being a web developer, a computer programmer backin the eighties and nineties and all of the different different shaded fieldsyou can. You can meajure in now and there's there's one thing that Ithink that m you might touch on that. You didn't ou, didn't hit in your glossover there. That I think, is crucially important from the data structureperspective. Is that Um you end up with a sustent Hash that canbe passed around. That gives you all of the properties of the things that youwant out of that out of that database at that link database aafrom, since it'scomputer networks, you need something small to pass around to agree upon. Ifyou don't have that and none of it works, yeah, yeah o. It was really exciting,as Zecryptography gives us this. I I love when I teach but crypticcurrencies. It's really good Tho motivviof people for Cotography whenpeople think of Croptography, they always think of you- know World War,two secret code- I iction you know passesn past passing secret massages,but really ENCRYPTOC. Currencies N for Bicquin at least anyway, in AtheoriumCyptography's not used for privacy at all is actually used for integrity. No,why am I guaranteed to have these coins? I can O and Kake the coins from meimauthenticiation only I can spand the...

Beckcoin only I can produce thedislittle signature as non custodio. No one can take my money away from me. Odsare really excitinde from antof fairness. For that matter. A the proofof work works on the assumption that the hash is random, yeah, exactly EHI.If that wasn't there, the proof of work wouldn't exist either. Yeah a te securepuzzle that nobody can cheat that's integrity, that's exciting yeah!I was also curious, like II was very excited when things likethe the Leger Journal started started coming online. When then they firstintroduced or announce that they were going to do that and people were weredoing. Courses and people were doing their PhDs. Like yourself, encrypteTeir, currency 'cause, it wasn't a thing that you could do when I was whenI was learning about this type of stuff and it dawned on me that it still mighttake a long time to get to the point of being in the regular curricula ofuniversities. It may start in the position of doing your PhD and putshingthe boundary of these types of things, one because it's multidiclinary itsvery Multidisciplinari, an ways that things have never been before and tooit changes, jrastically and very rapidly, and so of course, that you doone semester may be completely wrong or outdate. The next semester anden veryhard to do when you're trying to build gricula because more of than not, ifyou're a professor and you want to teach a sane course, you work reallyreally really hard to build it. And then you do. You know minor, updatesevery semester to try and figure out how to Tweik it. But if you have toRedo the damn thing every semester, then it's not going to really besustainable, because people get degrees that are outdated by the time theyfinish their degree yeah. I think that's very true Um, so we teach it onthe MOSTER program, No CCL, no kings college, London, amperial and UCL. Weall have our own courses on the master programs. Tso, we teach theundergraduate. I do see itgetg on the undergraduate, any wit in the next fiveten years. That's a very standardized! You know solid toppy, that Thi wouldhave soune ye as't changing inded anytime soon, but yeah you'reright. So when I was making my course this year, some of my slides hot, liketweets and articles from the day before be, for example, I was preparing thethe lactor about minors and wmy minors can be dangerous on Mi we have to Olminors accountable and guess what happened the day before Atheor, anclassic got attacked by Mynors likethis has to be included. Teath yeah.Yes, that was in my lecture t in the next Ta thiy. This is teholake. Sooften this semesteryeah you're definitely not definitely not lackingimmaterial to kind of bring into the Lectur to make it more life. ForStudents Hut spend your reaction from the students Um. Have they beenreceptive? Have they enjoyed it? Have they gone on to do things? Do thepeople tryn come and geiling three serds with you? Are they asking youwhich cointes should they buy? He hundrd fifty students like what isthe? What is the ratio? People are just curious to those who are engaged. The there's two points here. So there'sa small moster class during the day, so the real moster students, so you know,are going to get accredited for Kaping this course. There's twenty eight onthat class, one of them's an undergraduate they forced their wayonto the class on the university. They they went, the Receptiono they forcedtheir way to get in, and I think the students like it eactly. They told meas one of their toughest modules that they take 'cause Yo know I don't goeasy on them. They're they get really good content Um. So I know one person work wis, going towork for a bank and now they're trying to get in the Blocciin Department ofthat bank, so they're actually they're enjoying the course and who feelsimpact Eur Future career for the evening course. As crazy I mean the Qina is just insn.I I have this to our lecture and I'm strugging to finish my acture becausethey keep asking y questions, so I think in in that course there's. Maybea hundred a hundred and fifty core group you're really really superinterested, maybe the other a hundred and more curious and they'rse justthowing up theu know they get a feel over. What's going on, but yeah they'jis core group Wyou, just we finishe the lecture, an nine andthey stay there for forty minutes afterwards, duing QNA and that doesn'tget recorded. Actually, Q, n e, but yeah it's really intense. I mean I'mexhausted by the end of it. PETHETIC CITES be because, like I I did my myPhD and comvertational physics, and that was not the sevnario that I livedthrough Um it was it was. It was brain draining in a lot of way, veryinteresting, very curious, but, like you didn't have that type of engagmentfrom the students like I didn't, go home and then read all the physicsbooks or read the news, and things like that and those who did were not themajority, and I think we we're seeing in this because it's it's directlyapplicable to people's lives, re the gain and knowledge has potentialmonetary value buy drastically in terms of understanding what to what to kindof invest in, but teaching people how to invest you're. Getting thisinteraction from the students o a much much a deeper level, which I think isan incredibly exciting thing. Well, I think it also talks about so. The bigboom for the Internet th is the accessibilitis that it was very easy tobuild, stuff and show people and have...

...people interact with it and and playwith it and with computitional physics. The bar entry, for that kind of doingshit is is, is very hot. I I tremendously high, and so with this Ithink the enthusiasm is that people can immediately get interacting with thesethings. You're talking about you. They can literally go home after yourlecture and Start Doing Shit Idlie, that's fantastic yeah. I oo these likeSOS, have these homework exercises and I get like emails about the home workexercises. Now that I go and I didn't understand how to do this piece of thecode. I didn't understand this question then thi tape Chom about, but I alsowant the mention- is what we do once once a month. We have this weekend foodcamp for developers, so he Saturday and Sunday is two day AV Andon a free allthis is free by the way you know, so they they come from and basically we Ido the morning lectures. I prepare one our content and allows it for threehours. 'cause, it's a QNA T ses. It be made fore the QNA distencn then in the afternoon an orange takes in to acording exercise. So theylearn how the RAE solidity they learn, how to be ERC twenty. They learn howthe braks mark contracts and the students now that as well now we havethis like really cool litl over the part of year. We've been doing thiswetis, really crlike, locky and developer community. Now, then, we'veall trinned, you know they've gimed to our classes and sort of picked it up.Fo there's like an underlying level of of knowledge there that that Ou cthatthey it stays on key because you most of the people who are contributed tothat have a certain threshold of knowledge that keeps them there yeah.That's really interesting. I wouldn't mind trying to try and helpsolitatethat with our community and get them involved as well yeah, I think that's a great way to kind ofRapp the SEC call as you hade, something else Um. No, so I me N. isthere anything that we should have asked you that we didn't ask you stillin your CQOLESTIONA coryit's quality? Well, me was ox me. I don't know hsomething you want to talk about. We didn't ask you. I think I could ask you guys a question.Thats yeah prefer rolls here for a second. I ol year it e Wat your visionfor the next five years. What geipes you interested in this Peus? You knowwhy are you Cyper punks Callin, your first okay 'cause, you know you're going tobe sosnt R. Look, I don't think the next fiveyears is. I. I have dialed back my expectations on that. When I first gotinto this space Um I was Gungho, I was I was Um. I believed that things were going Tao,accelerate extremely fast. I thought we would have Plaswa by now. Put it tothat ay I thought. We'd have a fully functioning clouswal chain and peoplewould start using them like right after I read the paper andno August of twothousand and seventeen Um, I H. I was really excited and I thought within ayear we'd we'd see it. We see a fully fulk Shae claachncase ou, that kind ofstuff Um, and I started by the way full time Igot into it. In maybe two thousand andfifteen. I started fulltime atherins. What brought me in, I was 'n terribly interested in ditcoin M, but atheoryum, a theorium excited me Um. I read the White Paper before it evencame out. I was nearly adopter. I I knew a theorias helate things would gobecause when I read I learned about Bitcon, I was like this is great, butwhat it needs is basically a theory and then theytheyreathein wit paper. I was like a HA. This is it. I thought it would go a lotfaster m. that's said it is going up. REAHT next speed. I just didn't knowwhat break next speed actually was, and it was actually my expectation were tooaptimistic, I think, of five years. I don't think we're going to be seeingthe level of adoption that I think ultimately B. I want it to beingrained ultimately in every aspect of life: that's the Oltsmi Gul and that's moreof a tenyeare to fifteen year outlook, but in the next five year, what we'regoing to start saying is institutional trading of assets and I think assetcerialization, an asset exchange on an institutional level is going to beginin five years, not not be pervasive, but they willstart it, meaning that we will have Um. Everything from you know. Major majorcors assets, MiG ovould, start with just digital assets being cereializedand exchanged through some sort of blockchain mechanism, but I don't see the adoption level thatI I I want intil the next ten fifteen years. So where do I think we're goingto go? I mean Laar. Two solutions are pretty much the the key thing here andI think layer, one improving that is goin to be highly important but um. Themain thing that I'm curious about- and I really care about in this space- iswhether or not we can decouple the data structure of a block chain from theconsensus mechanism of proof of work, meaning that we have a major issue here:Um It is both E. U X and a a a Um. You...

...know a just practicality issue mean that if Ihave to sink the blockchaing, even in a light client in order to adopt we'vegot a problem M and I don't think lay or two solutions are going to be thesolution for that, because there's problems on all levels of the thenetwork with regard to that, and so I'm excited by things like Um Difinity,which I'm not sure where they are now but based off of our tacatmanuch. Ibelieve that decoupling and also madie avalanche,but I feel like there's unseen problems with avalanche still, so I'm not sureabout that one yet, but I do think definity has some teeth, at least intheir corte concept and a core idea behind it in decoupling, the datastructure fromthe current state. So you have the current stake and then you have theirrecord of state and coming to consensus without the full state of the system ina highly reliable way is absolutely going to be something that would be agame changer. An I ad also mention definity Hav, theJustice Legeaf chotographer ship e o hire t a people, that's for sure,yeah yeah. They have no only olike. You mentioned about like fifteen years away.So I did this like. I had to do a beccoin talk for like these high schoolstudents and there's like two hundred of them. So I started to talk with youknow: Who's heard of Beuen before, and everyone raised their Hans. Then I altoknow who's actually bought that coin and bout. Twenty percent of them didand they're fifteen sixteen yearoil. Well, you know that's interesting, I Iso I was traveling a lot and I had to have somebody watch my cats in my houseand that kind of thing. So I had I had a buddy who had a a younger brother. Hejust turned eighteen. He was taking it off here. You know he ws wearied atSpiza Join Really Nice Ky and he wanted Yo. I said: come move into. My housetake care of my stuff. While I'm traveling Um, he brought he's an Idon'twant to live alone, so he brought in his budy and is his buddy made over ahundred grand off of atherium in big coin as an eighteen year old, actuallytechnically a sixteen year old. By now now he was eighteen and this kid wasalready into cripto and I didn't know it until he moved in and then he foundout what I did and he was like. Oh my God like, but he doesn't understand thefundamentals he's not even he can't even program, but they know what thisstuff is, because there's no berry to entry and it's a value gained asset,you Ken that they can actually invest as sixteen year olds. What ind you knowlike what you can't do that you can't invest in the stock market as a sixteenyear old. There they're definitely nobon AA, I onration away Yeh Yep yeah. So if I had to come off of that, I did my. I did my PhD an an exact Qaneof dynanics and I often get questions about Um. What's Tho deal with quartum,chrotography or quite a proof, cotrography, and I often tell them that in five years, I'll know what questionsto ask M, and it's a very similar story herewith how I feel about blockang in five years. I'll know what it's going to be called.I oy know what questions to ask, and I know what problems will need to work onto get to the point of that actually being ubiquitous many many years downthe line M and I'm in it. Because of the thing I mentioned earlier Um, I did a talk on this a while ago, Ithink at the Texas Tickin superconference about social implications of ofinfrastructure and how humans interact with each other based on technology.They use to interact. It's Kindo like that whole saying the medium is themessage: If youare confined by a by the way inwhich you communicate with someone, then Um Thou're never able act, ev ableto actually communicate properly, and I think blocchan technology actuallygives us options to build. Um apli build an infrastructure inwhich you can then duild applications on top of that properly model. Thesocial context of whatever you're trying to do and that fascinates me. I really reallyreally want to find ways: T use technology to make humans be betterhumans and not te subject to the technology they're using- and I thinkthis is this- is the start of that, which means it's going to be a longtime till we get to a point whereever doing that properly and human's KINDOFsuck in a lot of ways, and so we're going to have a lot of hurtles alonghurt hurgles there. THAT'S PRETTY MUCH! Why I'm here and N,where I think will be in the next. You know fifteen just trying to absorb asmuch of it as possible, so that I can ask better questions. Um, as I learnmore and more stuff than I think anyone who's who's done. A PhD understandsthat Umit's not about what you know. Whatquestions you? What how good of a...

...question you can ask critical thing: feen yeah, if I figot Oll Thats, where we're at, Ithink that's kind of a great way to wrap up the show so thinks are comingon. Thank you listeners for joining it. If you like this, show quick like tellall your friends share it on twitter, you can find me at Corpetti on twitter,calling at at Collin Cuche Collin, cus C e. That was your. What is your tittername? Handel PUTTY CASO ATITASIO. As that paddy or PTTDYCO allrigh Yofind e there and share theres everybody joined the BCINPOAS DT com. There's aslack blutton. You can join our slack to join the conversation. We talk aboutthis and everything else there, as well as finding ways to getonto the life, show and ask questions. So then, let's wig for money a little bittoo. I ask you WAT E o. You Give us money that works, Toye ships th. Weaccept the nations, but we also are looking for sponsors. So if anybodyreally likes what we're doing and really enjoys the program, it feels asas, though we are the tagent audience e for technical, recruiting V foradvertising a product that you think is very interesting in the space. Be I foradvertising, your educational, PSS, your educational programs, you let usknow we would be happy to entertain. The idea of having thewsponsor entertained is the correct word ecause of a ship. You won't push itPret, ENTTHANKS GARD.

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