Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 4 · 4 years ago

Hashing It Out #4: William O'Beirne

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Will O'Beirne of MyCrypto talks with us about front end dapp development, conveying trust to your end-user on trustless networks, deployment methodology for decentralized systems, and what it takes to build a product in this early stage of blockchain development. We also go over some of the project libraries and tools used in creating MyCrypto. It's a compelling take on how UX design can inform product growth.

Now entering work. Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. All right, welcome back another episode of hashing it out. Have my cohost, calling touche, say what's up? What's up, and today we are Hey, today we are here with willow burn from my crypto. Will you want to give us a quick introduction as to, yeah, sure, what you do, where you came from while you're here? First off, let me say thanks for having me on the show. Colin and cory. Like what you guys do. A little bit about myself. So I'm a front end developer. I know you guys have a lot of heavy people on this show. I'm not going to be one of them. I mostly work on the the visual kind of touch and feel of stuff as it relates to blockchain stuff, but I'm pretty new to seem also, unlike a lot of your other guests, starting around last summer, I decided to take the plunge into this. I kind of come from more traditional web development background. I was started out at an agency and that was actually working at Ok cupid before finally I got kind of bit by the bug and was like, okay, I need to eather really get get into this stuff. So I entered the scene by just doing open source contributions to, at the time, my ether wallet, because I was looking for projects to contribute to, and after a while they want to bring me on full time. So now I'm here right on. I think the best way to start is something that I think is important but often underlooked when it turned when it comes to development of blockchain applications or to centralized applications in general, is the look and feel of the actual thing that someone's using, because the technology is hard and it's drastically different than what people are typically accustomed to and interacting with some online web AP application front end user experiences different, but they've come to accept expect certain level of convenience and ease, and marrying those two things for a blockchain application is very difficult. So I speak on that a little bit. Yeah, absolutely, I think you know, we talked so much sure about the technological hurdles and problems that we have to solve to kind of move into this decentralized world. And and those are real problems and I'm really glad that we have, you know, so many people who are taking it up to challenge them. But I also think that one of the underspoken issues is the psychological problems that we have. There's so much of a mind shift to start thinking about these things less like, Oh, this is my bank or this is my wallet, to you know, this is my private key, especially since private key isn't even a word that's in the lexicon of, you know, most people. So it's a total shift and I think the way in which we present ourselves and the language we use when interacting with people is hugely important to make sure that, you know, people understand this isn't this isn't just thanking two point out, you know, this is this is like a revolution. All everything's going to change and you, as a user, are going to have to change as a part of that too. Yeah, and I feel like one of the problems that people have that that is being fixed by blockchain in general is concepts of centralized trust. But I think that's not talked about enough is how that actually how you could convey that trust to a user that there's this trustless infrastructure when you've got this this this decentralized application. Youi in front of them and I know that, like my crypto and new they that this it standalone, like it's in browser. But how do you convey that? How do you feel like what bears did you have to convey that to a person that hey, we're not really like storing your information, we're not keeping your data that you used to unlock your account, we're not, we're not interfering with that. How do you convey that kind of trust value to a person who's operating your software? Yeah, it's really not intuitive to your average user. So we're currently undergoing like a complete rewrite of the application. Right now. We're just in kind of our final release candidate...

...phase. So you should be seeing that online in the next few weeks or if you want to check it out now, it's a Beta dot my cryptocom. But but one of the ways in which we're trying to convey that better now is we've sort of built the APP with an offline first approach. So before on my crypto or my ether wallet. You would go to the sendoffline tab if you wanted to generate a transaction in kind of a completely offline like get the sign transaction broadcasts online. But now we're going to try to demonstrate to users, Hey, you can use this application even if you're completely disconnected from the Internet, and and I would hope that through kind of that use case, people understand. Oh, I did everything here other than broadcasting my transaction on the network, which obviously requires Internet, but I was able to generate my transaction, you know, without any intervention from my crypto. You know, I think that's one way we communicate it. Certainly the language we use. I don't know if you guys access the website, but there's just ten page model that's like a real bikeymoth and and people hate us for it, but you know, it's really to drive the point home. We don't own your stuff, and that may seem scary, but it's actually a really good thing. It's very empowering. Here's why I think that's incredibly important that you do do that, and it's a sign of the Times that you still have to because I still know people who have been in the space for a very long time that don't understand that the wallet they created with my ether wallet is not attached to my ether wallet and that it's completely portable to what other service you want to use. So when when my crypto started, they didn't realize that. They thought I had to create a new wallet with my Crypto and move their funds from my other wallet. And it's so, it's it's a that disconnect of understanding and that my ether wallet and my Crypto are not wallets, they are interfaces to the blockchain ecosystem. They started out as allowing you to create a wallet and and access it and then access using your services to then act like connect the wallet to the blockchain. But the see what I mean, like they'll even the language I'm using doesn't make sense. Yeah, people, and so could conveying that information to someone as they just start interacting with the ecosystem is going to take a long time and it's exactly what you said. People are going to have to change along the process of this, because just the idea that I'm not going somewhere to gain to access my funds or my information, I am actually storing it on my pc and using some service that allows me to to unlock it. You know, access that thing is very different, and so I think it's a hell of a job to figure out how to most intuitively make people understand this or like lead them in the right direction. What language do we use? Like, what the Hell it's? We have a long way to go really. Yeah, yeah, you're I mean, you're demonstrating the exact problem here, and so do I. I mean, I can startle this. Our nomenclature has not caught up to how complicated the use cases are here and and how these things differ. You know, is it a wallet? Is an account? Is An address? Is it a private key? And I think to like there's this I think it's kind of a myth, but there's this thing about how inuit languages have like eight words for snow, because there's all sorts of different I think that our language will evolve and will develop very precise terms for these things that differentiate it from a traditional banking or financial structure. Those things, they both take time, but they also take influential people thinking really hard about it and using the right language and using it consistently. And and I want to get there. I will be the first to admit, though, that we're not there. We use words like wallet and account kind of interchangeably and interface versus wallet and things like that. Yeah, it's a bit of a mess right now. So where do you like? What's the next step do we do we change the language first or, like, I almost see as if there's two paths. Or maybe they're not, you know, completely mutually exclusive, but there's going to be a section of the future where people interact the block team without really knowing it, so they don't really need to give a shit about the language that we use as developers to make things work. And then there's the like people who really want to have access to their own funds and need to understand the differences between the custodial services and non custodial services and what that means and how to secure their own things, because it need of the day. There's a lot of people that don't really give a shit.

And Yeah, we want to serve to them. So like what like as a service, how do you do? You do you have to cater to one of those sets of people, or can you make a service that does both? I I totally agree that you're saying. I think you know as big of a problem as this kind of communication can be, you can chop the Gordy and not on that, but just insulating your average user from having to make that distinction. And and I'm a huge fan of products like like Meta mask in the various hardware while it's because they they've sort of made you know, okay, so backup this word. But all things going well, you won't need to, you know, deal with your actual private key now you're just dealing with a much friendly interface. It's easy to understand and and that's where I would like to be for kind of the the main happy path flow of using my crypto. But obviously we want to we're not just building an application for your average user. Were also building tooling for your more advanced users, so interacting with contracts directly and and, you know, signing your transaction offline and broadcasting an on an AIRDAPP device, those kinds of things. So that is also struggle, is catering to our more advanced hardcore cipher punk while also making this ecosystem approachable and and, you know, something that you can on board with. As somebody WHO's coming from paypal, you know and thinks that it's going to be the same. What did you have to do to because I'll use type script quite a bit and you've also really liked the new version of my crypto is done and react, basically type script and react. Why did you make those decisions to rebuild the whole thing from those two, from those two like basic like languages or our platforms? Well, I mean, it'd be easier to count off the reasons why we didn't or count the reasons that we would have stayed, because they're just so few, but I haven't. I have immense respect for Kos law and Taylor for having written, you know, kind of this product that that's so much of the community is built off of. But it was it was at a time where, I think, you know, it is more about getting things done quick because nobody was offering these tools at the time and it was also I don't think they realized how much of a pillar of the community that this this was going to be. So the rewrite has been for multiple factors. One is for safety. So you know, we're dealing with with millions of dollars a day being accessed through this application. We want to make sure that we get things right. So if you sign a transaction, that you know all the all the bits are right, that you the amount you type in is the amount that gets sent and that you know you're not getting the wrong balances back or things like that. So by using a strongly type language like type script, we can ensure a higher degree of accuracy with our code so that we're not making mistakes. It obviously reduces the number of errors that a user can run into because you know, for the non developers out there, when you're writing Javascript, you just type in the words and hope it hope it works. You know your browser other than than when you just type in garbage code. But your browser or whatever is interpreting the javascript isn't going to stop and say, Oh hey, you might make a mistake here because it's variable doesn't exist, or you might make a mistake here because you're trying to access an element on something that you know it's not that size. So so having that has been great just the accuracy of the code. We run into far fewer errors. I would say also kind of being a pillar of the community, we want to be able to be contributed to by the community and the previous code basis was very tricky to get into. You had a lot of like globally accessible variables where it was difficult to find out where they were defined. And it's using angular, which is a slightly less popular. It's still a somewhat common framework, but I think react is really one over most front end developers. There wasn't any unit tests available for it, so we, you know, could not assure the accuracy of any aspect of the codebase or pull a right exactly. Yeah, and there wasn't really a deploy process. The build is nondeterministic, which means when you when you run a build on two separate computers, you get different bundles that have different hashes. You know, the contents of the javascript are different. So you know, we didn't have a way of assuring that the the Javascript, that the source code that we wrote, was the same as what went online, so that, you know, that was kind of a potential attack vector. So now we we've got we've...

...got a strict launch process that builds on multiple computers and validates the Hashes across them and and we've been getting tons of pull requests. We had the CHRONOLOGIC team, who's behind the etherium alarm clock smart contractor allows you to do delay transactions that you can cancel and stuff like that. They were able to integrate their smart contract with almost no help from us. I provided some design help, but but they require very little from a coding standpoint in getting up to speed on it because it's all standard libraries. It's easily approachable. Same with the the parent team. We just implemented the parity signer wallet, which is really cool. Use Your phone, using the camera on your phone and Qr codes and the camera on your computer, you sign and broadcast transactions back and forth. So you have an air gap device with, you know, without having to buy any extra hardware. And they were able to, you know, write this fairly complicated thing that, you know, access your Webcam and past around transactions with very little oversight. So we're seeing a lot more interaction from other companies in the space or even just individual developers. We started using Gitcoin, which is a bounty program where you pull off issues on Github and get paid for for closing them with pull requests. We've been seeing an immense amount of we put up a bounty in you know, an hour later it's getting pulled off and people are really finding this code is much more approachable. So I'm actually I'm sorry if I went silent there for a minute. I decided to go to your package, that Jase on Sion, and because you're on the call getting sniped live. This is not like. Actually, I'm not, I'm not. Actually, I'm kind of curious. I want to know. I wanted to know what libraries you were using, if any, to interact with, think if you ruled your own or anything like that, to interact with like the RPC calls on, like the local machine. And so I see you went with the there in JS and I was learning if you could talk to a little bit about your choice in out library. Yes, so I think a large part of that library was even though my youthrow wall at my crypto aren't using that straight up, a lot of the methods were actually just copied in. So there was a familiarity there. It kind of was an easy transition. We also did look at web three, I think at the time, this is maybe about a year ago today. At the time it was missing certain portions of it, I think, maybe like the the contract Ati interaction or I'm kind of speaking at it turns here, but some aspects of it were missing. We were already familiar with the Therem JS. But yeah, it's been nice to kind of have these community libraries that handle a lot of the encoding and decoding of data and encryption layers stuff, so that, you know, we have a reasonable assurance that, okay, what we're doing is correct, because everybody else is doing it too. Right, right and post. You know, web three has had some issues, I would say. I mean I use webpary personally. I'm open to anything else, but you know, it hasn't been promisified and the kind of stable version which Agus is zero point two, one to two right now and the new version one point. Those in Beta and there's been. If you look at the issue backlong it's you. So I was just kind of wondering what kind of how stables into in G has been for you, because I haven't really pointed with myself and I'm hoping that you could talk about that a little bit. Yeah, I have only run into like a couple of very edge case things. I just found like a weird issue with bite encoding that it's different from web three. So I don't know who's got that problem, but I'm working on that one right now. But otherwise I've really it's been a lot easier to dive into, I think, than web three, because it's not this one monolithic re though that handles everything related to a theorem. It's these bite size libraries that are much easier to dig into the source code and figure out. You know what you're using, and there have been some aspects of it that did require us to kind of go through the source code and say, okay, what are they doing and how can we interface with it? For instance, they use B N Js for big numbers, whereas I think previously we had been using big number, which is another big number job javascript library. So there was some incompatibility there that required us to shift our codebase. That I could understand what people finding frustrating, but once we got in the groove with it, I would say it's been really, really easy to use the M GSUTIL for for miscellaneous functions Ati for contract interaction, we use the Thei Um gs tx for encoding and decoding transactions, and all that's been very straightforward. Yeah, I think that's an interest. I want to back up a little bit and maybe explain to some of our listeners who didn't quite catch the subtlety of that conversation. Like when you're building for the front end, there's never really a back end that you're linking to, because...

...you're more off than not grabbing information from the blockchain itself or sending information to the blockchain and then just rendering that stuff in your browser on a screen somewhere, and you do that using a library that knows how to talk to the etherium blockchain or the nodes that are that are running the theorium blockchain right and what's interesting is that you have kind of multiple implementations of these libraries depending on what language you're using to code the front end. And even with even a few different languages, are a few different libraries within the same language. Like you just said. You know, if Theorem utils and a the Um JS and then web three dot ch as is the same type of functionality in two different maintained libraries. And I see this kind of analogy in best practices for smart contract languages or smart contracts. Is it's seeing that ends up you know to use. And the reason why column was even asking is that whoever's using these things the most, you have a better idea on what's actually going to work the way you think it's going to because when you're crafting the transaction on the front end web page that you're going to send to the Theorem blockchain, you want to be damn sure what you're crafting is what you think you're crafting and you don't really know that until it gets into the blockchain. Kind of right, and and and these in the pace of this development is so fast that I've used a plethora of these libraries. Are Going to different languages depending on what I'm trying to build, and it's in the experience is always different or, like you know, you have codebreaking changes halfway through it and like what happened? Oh, they updated it and now I don't know whether what I built earlier works. Have you all had similar type experience in these types of things, or you have it has? It's been getting Nice because you've been consistent across the given package and you know the maybe like the development pace of that package. Yeah, it definitely helps that. The etherium J S it's kind of a bunch of libraries that you interact well with each other because they are kind of under the same housing. We've definitely found, though, that upgrading, upgrading your packages midway through development can be very got concerning. Yeah, yeah, yeah, put it plainly. So we've definitely taken kind of a steady approach to that. We implemented this this cool Bot called greenkeeper that watches all our libraries and it alerts us when, you know, there's updates available and we've we've looked at them and said we don't think that's worth updating for and just, you know, don't if it's just minor like Oh, you know, fix some comments in the code or things like that. You know, if it's very minor things that we're not using, we try to keep it as stable as possible. But yeah, we've had a few occasions where, you know, for instance, switching big number implementations. That was that reat havoc for a while, just all the little things that pop up when you change that. But the bright side now is that since we're using all these standard libraries. I think one of my favorite improvements with the new version to the old version is when you sign a transaction, you go to broadcast it, but we actually do. Instead of just using variables that you entered in on fields, we encode the transaction and then decoded again and display to you the decoded version of it so that we're assured that the you know, the raw data that gets sent to the node that you're viewing, that you're not going to view. Oh, you entered one theory sending one ether, so I'm going to show you that you're sending one either. We actually, you know, are going straight to the the source data. So using a library like if the're GSTX has made that really easy. You just encode it, decoded and then rerender it. That's what it smart. I like that. I don't. I guess. I know. I remember you spoke a parody earlier. There's there's a you test against multiple clients as well. Have you noticed any issues with regard to that as I've ever come up where you're, you know, features that were you thought might be available or working the same in both. Actually there's a slight conflict. You have to resolve them. Oh my God. Absolutely. Yeah. I want huge shoutouts to Henry on our team, Henry on the mycrypto team. He is the author of a library that we've written called Shepherd, which is really cool. If you're if you're working on kind of a node intensive library, I would definitely check out the shepherd library. What it is a load balancer for multiple nodes. So before what happened when you connected to my crypto was you would connect to the micrypto node by default and we would just handle all your traffic, and that's been fine. We've been able to do that. But kind...

...of as we scale it's good to share the load of stuff like that across the network. So with this library does is you you give it a list of nodes that are available to you and it will paying nodes in sequential order and if a node comes back with errors data, it'll go to the next one and try to see and it. It'll kind of get consensus from multiple nodes about what is like the best result to give to you and kind of track node health. It's really sophisticated stuff. That awesome. I built don't think exactly like that, but I'm not allowed to use it. So the fact that you have a version that's kind of like that, I'm like, awesome, all right. When you say not as yeah, when you say not allowed to use it, you mean it's a proprietary or part of a convert I did so I thought I don't even have it. So it's like yeah, that's good. But Yeah, MT license, you know, gonna. I think it's important to bring up. Is is that like a lot of what my crypto has done? Besides, you know, rebuilding the the old repo with, you know, better type safe languages and checks and balances and unitests and things like that, is you've provided these other libraries and services that developers can use, like shepherd and the Green Checker, or what was it called? Like can you talk about these other services that you've introduced along with the Beta that developers could find useful, like a load balancer, please? Yeah, you're about all your tools then? Yeah, well, we're definitely working on breaking out code. So we kind of wrote up a lot of stuff and we're working on modularizing a lot of it. So Shepherd's probably the biggest effort. We've had some other things. Our launch process is using a library called Drawbridge, which I'll shout out to Danny on the MICRYPTO team for working on that. It's our independent build and Hash Checker, so that is also open. You want to meant that that kind of process into your build, you can check out drawbridge. I'm trying to think off the top of my head what's in the refo and what's separate stuff that we're working on outside of the Repo? I know that we're working on keeping. We're working on like a what's the word Levenstein distance calculator for NS names, so close search like like get, actually like to bktree and actually give you kind of like a relative distance on how I'm like Hey, suggested rooms for people in the NS contract. Well, more importantly, it'll warn you. Hey, you think you're sending to, you know, my crypto dot ns, but you're sending to my crypto dot Ns, especially. I mean you guys have all seen the the like twitter. Send you moneyth I'll send you tended things right where. They think it's the user handle. That's, you know, kind of close, uses an l instead of an eye, that kind of thing. So we're going to try to avoid that. So that's something we're going to be opening up. We've been working on trying to build out the etherium lists stuff for for common ns names and common tokens. So rather than keeping a giant list of token Jason that people pull request on us, we're working with a league to have the central repository or keep track of all the tokens and you know the websites of those tokens and and contact information for those teams, so that anybody, if you want to spin up a website that deals with tokens, you don't have to source that list yourself. You can just use this and it's all it's all on IPFs. So it's also trustless, which is great. Well, IPFs is a trustless IPFs is just a storage mechods first setting stock. So I think this comes back to, like one of the original questions I had. Putting confidence in the user that your wallet is operating as expected is something that is a high importance, especially to people who are maintaining, like you know, large amounts of Crypto, you know, Ethan in Tokens in these wallets. So what what else can you do to sort of convey that? Because I know that if somebody comes fross to your site right now, it might be it's still very difficult to really be assured that they're that they're protected. Yeah, I mean what I would say is, as much as we know, try to instill best practices and people book marked the site, check the SSL Sert. If you go to a website, you can't be assured of anything. That you just received because, you know, maybe the DNS got hacked, maybe maybe one of the developers would rogue and just decided to fload something crazy. So, you know, I think we're really trying to move away from the website as the product. We're working now on downloadable desktop applications. We've always had the downloadable html builds, so you just download and in text html file and and run that...

...instead of going to the website and and pretty soon, as much as I'm sure this is gonna Piss off a lot of people, we're going to just not allow you to enter your private key on the website anymore and say, if you want a political profile, enter and Thema phraser or enter your private key. You have to down on the application because we just think, you know, we don't. We don't want that to become a community standard that people just go to websites and enter their private keys. And if we're, if we're doing that, we're no better than anybody else who's having users do that. So that's been huge item on the road map and it is probably going to be really tough for a lot of people to switch that like transition from just putting your private key places. But it's got to happen if if we're going to have a secure, you know, ecosystem where people aren't constantly getting fished. I think that's an important concept because, you there's two things that, as a business, would want to do, because at one hand you want to try and Garner as many of the community as you possibly can to use your service, because there are competing services. Like you want people to use what you're doing because you're building it and you want people to use it and you want to business to grow, but on the other hand, you really need to as a killer of the community, in still best practices. So you say this is unsafe, don't go to a website and put your private key in there. Oh Shit, we're enabling you to do that. And it's like you would like to enable as much functionality as possible, to you know, widen your nets, but you also want to try and make sure that people aren't just using the you know, minimal energy path, if you will, of getting to where they're trying to go. That's probably the most insecure at the same time, and it's going to be difficult because, like we've said beforehand, this is a different technology in the more you try and make it like centralized convenient services, you're going to have some something, most cases a security tradeoff at the same time, and that's like, I don't know, it's a interesting path to try and tread. Well, can can I ask you a question then? So you really you want to get things onto people's machines? It sounds like you're coold. This is already in job of script. Why not bundle gas or something with an electron APP and your front him? Yeah, so actually that that bundling is a concept I've wanted to look at, is getting people to have kind of a onestop shop, host your node and run my crypto connected to your node. So that's definitely on my road map. Yeah, the downloadable APP that we're looking at. We're going to be building an electron APP and I know everyone like rolls their eyes at electron, or at least most developers, to a great use of that's exactly you know, I think. I think electron gets a lot of hate because large companies like flack or whatever, like wide build two products when you can just use taff of your Ram. But this is an application that we want a mirror the web experience. The desktop experience. You know, we want to be able to offer it everywhere, so we want that tight code bits. We're also a very tiny team. I mean it's just four of us working on the front end and and two of US kind of working on infrastructure. So we you know, we can't build a native application for everything. But also people are worried about the safety of electron but even though it is running on your acts, running on your system, the whole thing is in context isolation, which means that the web view can't access your computer. So we're not going to start doing crazy things like like running around your file system to look for, you know, keystore files or whatever. It's going to be the same interface and it's going to have the same restraints that browser would have, except now, you know, you don't have to worry because all the files are sourced locally. You don't have to worry about our domain getting hijacked or even your router getting hijacked or anything like that, because it's all it's all going to be on your machine. But it's still going to be, I think, more convenient than an html download because you have the like, I don't know, drag it into your browser and then even then you still have chrome plugins or whatever could potentially be clipboard jacking or or, you know, watching for for things on them. So, yeah, this is really the safest way to go. And so so I might have gone a corey keep, you know, and Sinu and you slow down sometimes just to make sure that some people are not front and guys or don't understand what we're talking about. You know, slack is actually a browser application and it's running in this thing called electron and its combined. So I say slack because it's a good example of electron APP that's already out there that people can plain about the memories problems with. It's actually just a bundled happened actually had comes with its own browser and like like, like, will said, it's it's sandboxed and it basically enables you to could take this web experience and control it because, like, a lot of people have problems with like cross browser compatibility and stuff. You don't want to constantly deal with that. It actually allows you to, you know, control you user experience, build...

...things for the web and then actually give a desktop experience which will say, if you're going to deploy this to a client who own all their computers only have by eight. You know, you can instead market this application, which works in modern browsers, as a electron APP and to play it on their network and they're actually able to use it because they have different policies for things that are installed than they do, for for browser policies. You that also allows to do things like launch a client in the background on start up, so you could actually bundle your guest clients or your parody client with this electron APP and actually have them all kind of work or work together on a localized way, which is really the more decentralized desk way of doing things. M Yeah, no, I think. I think if you're going that route, that's fantastic. I like to do that. Yeah, and we're definitely trying to just slowly dip our down do it. So it's a very it's not going to do a lot more than the web product right now, but that's just because we don't want to overstep our reach. Like, if users are going to let us onto their computer, we want to be good guests. So we've had the we've had the electron codebasefully audited by an independent team, made sure, you know, and it's going to be the same level of like kind of opt in behavior. So we're not going to install anything by default, you know. So even if we bundled get in the future, we would we would make sure that was an often thing. We don't auto update. It'll ask you if you want to update, but if you want to stay on the same old version like that be you know, being my guest, we're going to try to be very reserved in how much access we asked from from users. So outside of my Crypto, what are you excited about? Oh Man, it's a big question. There's a lot to be excited about. Really happy to see dolumn just hit main neet. I'm a big long term fan of that team and that project. I think you know, maybe rendering their their an arc twenty token right now, but their boal is to be kind of the the aws of the decentralized world, so outsourcing, running things on other people's computers, you know, selling your compute power. So right now they just render blender d models, but I think they have some big stuff on on the horizon. Also really excited for the augur project, which is prediction markets on the blockchain, so independently verified or consensus based betting more or less. I think those are two really big etherium projects that I have a lot of hope for. Also the basic attention. So can to team they congratulations. Congratulations to them for forgetting doubt Jones, I think on their platform of advertisement. I just think right now we're kind of past the ICO craze and I'm really excited to see the the serious players in the depth space having their products either finally make it to test that or finally make it to main net. We're seeing a lot of progress from them. So that kind of stuff is the most exciting to me is seeing this product, this project is a theorem thing that is mostly been other than value transaction and some basic smart contracts be the conceptual actually start to gain value in the real world. Yeah, definitely. On that note, I bring God call it's brave your go to browser. Now the brave itself still has some some work to do on on. I run into a lot of quirks there and I try to report them when I when I can kind of nail down the use case, but it's been a little bit tough. But I think what they're building is great and I look forward to kind of it reminds me of Firefox back before chromes there, where it is really cool browser that I always wanted to use, but you'd go to a website and they have all these like issues because everybody's building for IE. Actually, brave is going to be really big, but not my go too yet. I'm go go to yet actually, like so I've run. I run what's called a pie hole on my network at home, which is better with a redsberry pie. Actually do it on a it's a it's a dock rised version on one of my servers. Oh, that's awesome. And what it does is it becomes your domain named server, basically. So every time you're any computer on the network tries to grab something, it goes through this pie hole and the pie hall will parse what it's being asked and only return things without ads or, you know, spywear or any type of thing that's on a watch list that it's looking for. I don't know how that interacts with things like brave. There's like would brave not do what it's supposed to do because it's not getting any ads or it's not replacing ads with with, you know, attention? So my...

...my understanding at least in the long term. I don't know their exact technical implementation, but the ideas that your client will be serving up the add so you'll kind of like, if you want to receive that, you'll have to serve up an add but that that some of that will happen client side so that it won't be this external additional request that you block. But even if you are blocking, like let's say you're blocking request that says hey, what ads can I show to the user? You're just not going to receive any any bat if you're not viewing these ads. So I think it's a great agreement between users and content creators and advertisers, which is like look, we all hate ads, but how can we incentivized users to you know, because I think one of the things they want to build is basically a slider, which is like how many ads do I want to see? You you know I want? Do I want to paste my page full of adds and make like a decent amount of bat, or do I just can I handle seeing one or two, or do I want to see none and just, you know, get get nothing for my browsing? I think, I think these kinds of agreements, I really like when when, by introducing these these decentralized concepts, we sort of threatened the industry and instead of saying, you know, screw you advertisement, like we're done with advertisement, it's more like, all right, you know, we've got some bargaining power, you've got some bargaining power, let's meet in the middle. That's kind of my ideal scenario for a lot of these projects and I think, you know, the brave and basic atention token teams or doing a great job of bridging the gap on on that, like something you're saying earlier, like you're excited about a lot of these projects that are kind of making it to main net. They're becoming something real. They certainly have been doing a tremendous amount of development since, like their other days, to become real and on the main net and useful. But on this on the other hand, there's not a lot of useful depths that are currently in existence that people actually use. So, you know, underlying actual utility is low. Do you have anything that you actually use today? Like I use Peepis, which is like the you know, the decentralized or a Syrian version of twitter. Yeah, we're all hands at my crypto. I think. I think we're all in the like K use your ID range just because we think that's like. I think their user experience for interacting with the blockchain is is probably the best that I've seen so far, which is they will store some of your data on their server just to kind of make it so that you're not having to check everything in to to the blockchain and then you check things in in batches, and I think that's just that's such a great compromise for we all know it's a little bit expensive to interact with the blockchain. You know, run it runs four or five cents, but they're leveraging, I think, IPFs right to store your your what are they called? Peeps against not tweets there. Yeah, so, so they're not storing your peeps directly on the blockchain but and said, they're storing the IPFs Hash and they only require you to check it in after a maximum of fifteen actions. I think I'm a huge fan of their their approach to kind of that compromise. Like I was saying, of okay, it's tough to be, you know, solely on the blockchain. How can we meet in the middle? That's still have be decentralized. But I will say I think, you know, you picked one of the best ones out there right now in terms of of dapps. I think other than maybe peep and and a lot of the the decentralizax changes out there, there haven't been a lot of knockout use cases. For me. I see a lot of games popping up, cryptikities being the obvious one, but I've seen some people using the Er seven hundred and twenty one, seven twenty one. Thank you. A lot of these keep up with using these unique token types of things, making like card games, like trading card games and stuff like that. You know, I'm seeing more and more of those, but they don't get me as excited as some of these like big problem tacklers. And I think Pete, you know, even even though it's just a twitter replica, I think it represents a huge shift in how we might interact with websites going forward. But yeah, I can't say that I'm, you know, unlocking my metal mask on on too many websites these days. I think that's yeah, I mean it's it's like what what's interesting about these? I don't want to call them like toys, such as the Games for the arc twenty one tokens and things like peep it, which is a clone of twitter. For for us, it's actually like teaching us what needs to be done or what can be done, for for the future of blockchain based applications. For instance, like with...

Peepeth, you have single user sign on, or what is the beginning of single user sign on, using your your contort your private key, and while it address as your user name, which gives you attribution and access to these things. That like, you can use the same thing to sign on to multiple services. They're just the only one in existence right now where you can do so. And so you just to log into peepe you, you just sign a message and it verifies it and says, Yep, that's you. You can now have access to all these other services as you're like for your account and for like Games, in near twenty one tokens is we're learning how to interact with non fungible digital assets and the infrastructure around them through games, which one and sympivizes people to have fun, play and learn about these things, but also teaches us, in a almost a sandbox, on how do we responsibly do this and get the rules right? So when we actually have incredibly high value assets being represented by these digital representations, we don't screw it up. It goes one stuff further too, because you look at these these assets, they're actually generating value on their own. They start out as nothing and a lot of them are actually building value just through scarcity models. So it actually plays into even a whole new field like cryptoeconomic research. And I really, really, really love the fact that people are taking slow with and I call it take it a slow so these crypto keeties, your O's, yeah, but like or the rare peppe is. Yeah, it's cool, like, but you know, also, I mean like really, you know, I mean eats, beanie babies at Lisa's news. But yeah, but even Beb beanie babies were a great kind of case study of this idea of of humans being weird. You don't scarcity and yeah, yeah, just what we value and and how we transact. And I really like that these things are going slower because, I mean it's very human in its development. You know, as humans we learn how to interact with the world trough play, just you know, as a kid, you're in the sandbox, you have a toy, somebody else wants your toy and and like you have to learn how to deal with that, and I think that's not too dissimilar to the stage we're at right now with the blockchain, which is, you know, we all want to do these things but we haven't figured out how to work them out. So what better way to discover how best to interact with them than through play? So yeah, I don't, I don't ever turn my nose up at these blockchain games. I think they're hugely important, but they're obviously they're not the end game. You know, we're going to be so much more than Crypto kitties in a in a decent amount of time. So I'm excited for the future, but I really appreciate where we are right now. I think that's a that's a great way to wrap this up. Actually, I have one more question. I'll go ahead call I'll light on. There's a so nonfudgible tokens. Yes, you've already mentioned just tracking regular arc twenty tokens. What about tracking and N FT's? And what about tracking identities in the seven hundred and twenty five? Is this on your road map for for my crypto? What? What other things do you see you see my crypto evolving into sort of a platform for value, like monitoring or transactions on those bonds? Like what do you see my crypto going to at this point? That's a really great question and and we have had somebody pop into Github and talk to us about seven hundred and twenty five because, you know, one thing I like about working at my cryptos we are a sort of a proven ground for for Eids or ether se's. You know, we can be one of those use cases to point too. So I definitely take that responsibility with a lot of weight, but I like being able to try things out. But but those are those are great ideas that we have talked about and I do think that we want my crypto to be more than kind of this payment interface. I think we want my crypto to be somewhat of a home for for the blockchain, for you you know, kind of a to put a face on on what is just data right now and be a consistent and approachable user experience. Obviously these things take a lot of development effort and, like I say that we're pretty small team. So we try to kind of see, are these just flash in the pan? You know, is cryptical is going to be here today and gone tomorrow, or or are we going to be seeing this, this non transferable assets really take take a long term shape? But I think you know, once they've sort of established themselves as the way going forward, I think we absolutely want to stand. We want to step beyond basic contract interaction and transaction sending. We want to be a...

...platform, you know, while making decentralized. Yeah, it's weird because you think of this concept of a platform and it's a very central concept, like you have like amaws as a platform, but you go to the a tow go to Amazon and you and you deploy instances using their their stuff, like it's all on their system. But you are actually developing a truly decentralized platform. You're kind of the early stage. Is still but you know, just by the simple act of being able to reliably create a wallet and sent transactions, you are kind of creating a hub on some of these possibly local machine which could could enable some more things going down the road. So I think it's really interesting what you guys are doing. Hey, how do you guys? You say you're small team. How do you guys pay for yourselves? Well, how do we pay for ourselves right now, at certainly a some amount of it is. We're just for on a burn right you know, to my knowledge, I don't know the exact percentages breakdown, but I think give been some of the more like the team has grown a lot over the last year basically. So you know, we're we're trying to reach further. But we have partnerships with you'll see, you can you can swap tokens on shapeshift through the platform. We kind of do some affiliate relationships with hardware wallet companies. So Hey, go buy a treaser and if you do, they kick us back some money. Our game plan is definitely to try to make money in a way that is mutually beneficial to the user and us. So either, you know, informing users of things that we think are worth checking out, like hardware wallets, definitely not like ICOS or anything like that. We you know, we don't want to be endorsing those kinds of projects, but the things that are positive user experience things or by interacting with smart contracts and and you know, having some sort of fee as a part of that. I think it's where we are looking at, trying to make it so that users are opting into paying us and not like to use our platform. You have to pay or to use our platform you have to be subjected to, you know, intense advertisement that kind of stuff. What have you thought about like inner enterprise integration models or anything like that, as well working with more larger corporations to help them understand in it and adjusted this new, you centralized economy through your system? It's definitely something I've considered. I don't know a how much of I've really try to pitch on that, because right now we're just we're community first, like build, build a product that the community wants to use, and then if they, you know, if the community is using it and a company wants to, you know, build on top of that, then maybe that opportunity presents itself. But but you have to get to build the product first before you try to try to sell it. But you know, something that's really great to see is that people have been taking the open source nature of this stuff and been tweaking it to their needs. Like the etherium classic. They run kind of their own copy of meal with just some of the values tweaked, but it defaults to you know, if they're in classic nodes and stuff like that and has a dip one hundred and fifty five like taken out, I think, or whatever differences there are with that blockchain. But I think we're going to see, you know, if you build the right product, people will want to take it and use it and maybe we'll find, you know, some kind of larger business interest. But if that doesn't happen, you know we're going to we're going to just try to stay afloat for as long as it takes to build the product that people want. So what do you need from the community? Somebody were to help you right now, if you would ask for development? What kind of built resources you're looking for? What kind of do take donations one? Are the things that you, you guys, are looking for right now? Oh, I love giving giving me the opportunity to plug. That's so gracious of you. Yeah, obviously donations are always appreciated. That's in the footer, but I think you know, more importantly, I think you we want people to contribute. So if you're on GITHUB, if you're looking to dive into the blockchain space and like work on a cool project, we're always open to community contribution, contributions. We have a huge backlog of issues. It's a really approachable codebased. Is Tons of reading to do. If you know, we try to write wikis and stuff like that. So if you just want to contribute, that's great. We all are also kind of hiring. I wouldn't say that I have like strict job descriptions, but but we're always on the lookout, like if somebody you know seems really talented and really interested, like there will be a place for them. So I would say the best way to kind of do that is to start contributing and let us know you're interested. Yeah, more than anything, I would say just just contribute if you're interested and if if you not interested, just just check out my crypto and let us know if how you feel about the new new Beta and don't. Yeah, happy. How could people find you me? So I'm...

...will burn. I'M AT WB OH burn on twitter. I guess you can check the show notes or something to that to sell that, and I pretty much use that everywhere. So github or Linkedin or whatever. If you want to reach out, if you want to talk about theory and stuff, if you want to if you want some advice on how to get started in the code based, I'm always so open to to just chatting with people. I love when people reach out. Yeah, that's awesome. Education is a huge problem and we need a lot more menforce in the space, so I'm glad to hear you said that. You guys are doing a great service. I love that you're bringing people on. Just talk about what the building. It's the only way to get people to know about it. Thanks for coming on. If I think that was just a fun conversation, yeah, it's beast. Thanks. Take care.

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