Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 40 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #40 - Liam Horne - L4

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Liam Horne is a developer, decentralization expert, and an open source entrepreneur with a focus on state channels. L4 and Counterfactual have released a new development playground that lets software engineers learn and play with state channels right from their browser. Liam gives us insights on what it's taken to get to this point, where the state of state channel development is right now, and where we're going with layer 2 solutions for scaling blockchains.

Links

  • http://twitter.com/liamihorne
  • https://playground.counterfactual.com/
  • https://twitter.com/l4ventures
  • https://l4.ventures/
  • https://lihorne.com/

I guess thes episodes brought you bytrelepants Terbitis, a CYPA security company that offers ot open source andalysis software and consultation services tor the block chain industry since theyre entrance intoblogingtechnology from the traditional Siver security field, they've released thespeet of high quality, smart contract anoue products of the community free ofcharge, O work with me, the top company's he industry to improve theirsecurity stance. This episode is Produc spotlighters onslither Fur, a bit slidity static, analyzer framework, writtan python,three Sother parses ter solidity contracts and compiles them into anintermediate representation. Language called slith. I R, which an ablessimple, high, procision analysis. It then runs large suit of honorbilitydectors for its detailed visual information aboutoue contract and alsoprovides an API to easily right custom analysist chets. On top of that, it'sfast it an average execution time of less than a second, not only thistether're able smart contracter milpers or to fine vulnabilities, but it alsohelps Tei Hantheuh, hord comprehension it it's Quesy to use, helps you firgureout what you're doing and hopes you wrinte better more secure code find outmore itilabes com. That's tr a Il of eits dtcom, where you can follow the onto itter a trail of its Jn Shuca. Now entering indawork, welcome to hashing it out APOCASS forretalk to the ATTECK intevators behind block in intrastructure anddecentralize networks. We dive into the weeds figured at why and how peoplebuild this technology, the problems they fase themon the way I'm Listengand learn from the best in the business. You can join their recks eloevery one wil back to hash it out.Fon Forty, your house, Doctor Corrypetty and my trusty cohost,calling comche, say: Hollo Everybody, Collin, hello, everybody Colin. As dontoday Weavemean Horn from CEN, LFOR, yeah lfour and thecounterfact Pu iafactoal project. That's Kindo acceptable. Thaut. There I've we've been trying to get you onefor quite a while, because over the last couple, episodes you've been doinga lot of scaling discussions, and this is clearly appropriate for that. Youwant to g start by giving our audience o quick introduction as to who you arehow you got introduced into like the e walk chained space and what Lfour isand contrfaction with yeah definitely Yeh. So my name is Leam, I'm mostly, I would say e, I'm an engineerand overall contributed to the scealing research groups intherm world. I Iguess I originally came into the the blotching space for more, like a slkMalley topart up background. where, for you know, multiple years after I I leftuniversity, I was working on on basically different start. UPS, almosta location, analytic start up and helping figure out where you should putphysical stores. Then there were a few others that basically e run out of HaStart EA studio, called atomic, and I had actually TAC this kind of fortonateexperience where an university at the University of Waterloop, I was, I wasliterately classmates with batalic Um et, was like the inventure otherium andso insearly on was kind of following what he was up to personally and I wasvery interested in the project, so I O had reall g understanding F it, but Iwas looking at it from the lens of this is a phenomenotechnology. What can itdo to you know? Actually what what kind of businesses can be built in arounditor using it? And I was always trying to figure out what that could be. Basically, I think in gn of earlytwentya seventeen. I was trying to...

...answer that specific question and Ijust asked Italic one of the most important things right now in etherium.How are we going to make this sely like a viable teacher for like how l thistecalgactall have in fact in the future and the most important thing back theninstilled today I was just scaling it, and so he just answered like the threemost important things are: Who could stake research charting and statechannels and I'd never heard of the state channels before, but there seemedto be a lot of work. Weing gone an sharting at to mistake, and so Ithought, okay well I'LL! Do it. If a DEE DIV into this, this 'll be like asmall fora. Ee Yo do there and yeah pretty pretty quickly. I realize it wasmuch larger than that. I got to introduce to Jef Culleman, who wasTurne of the inventor of the entire concept he wete a block post in thoendand fifteen, and he spok at Devcon on about the constant state channels andhe basically Lis electured me every single day for a few weeks about in theentirety of his idea of state channels, and I was kime just very booked and so,while initially foun looking at it from my Bo business, Ess Cim me start ustgot so deepent to actually look into thi specific retuach utmost at channelsthat I just I kindof just lost the interest in this business aspect andtisfocus entirely in building bats, and so over the course of the past. I guessa year and a half two years, I've just been entirely focused on taking whatwas in jest head at the time of the ind state channels and translated that intoo production of technology stack that can actually make it easy for Aydeveloper to use the technique. Because, again from my narrative, how wasMasicaly saying the most important thing is to build to make it te useful,is to scale it and one of those estate channels, and so I've just been tryingto basically get that to be at the point where people can actually use it.That's iesting waste on that, based on that history and he, I guess veryunique experience you had with with getting like one on one primer with the personwho, basically you know, PA Cim up there with the initial idea. I wouldlike, if you could describe as best orleast, maybe to like a layman. What astate channel is in your mind, Yeh. So definitely it's been this term. That'sbeen thrown around in a lot of really concusing ways. I think the easiest wayto describe it is that the reason why we need a block chain is that youfundamentally have this assumption that you don't trust anybody else ever, andso we need this global database that is updated by a some kind of contensismechanism that allows you to put inor Transaction Without Having The Trust ordiscuss anything with anybody, and you can rely that the state of base will beupdated using physically. You know the aagamation of technique that are usedof block chains, SUC, that your tradaction will be included and thatepesially Hawe bloccans work you, but in in trasaction, and you can rely thatno one's con to be able to censor that Wat ator from going to the chain anUpdat in the states. However, a', like the worst case scenario right in somecases, you can you can change it such that, if you have the ability to justinteract with people without having to not trust anybody. But if anyone everdoes act maliciously, then in the worst case, in that scenario, go to the chainthat wouldn't basically speed things sec dramatically, because, instead ofevery single time going to the chain for every state update, you can justcommunicate with the people that need to care about the state updates and dothat much quicker, because you don't need to involve everybody and involveall this contensed meghanisms. That lacns add even to speak to the localpeople that care about it. But you can have the same trust, garnthe same trust guarantees, because if ever any of those people are malicious,you can go back to the chain and get your money out. So it just changes fromchanges blocks in usecases from being like the average case is really slowand expensive IV to use the chain to the worst case is slow and expensive.Yet to use the change and the way it does. That is that, instead of you knowyou holding ontoyour money in your own ethereum accounts you own eith or youown Twan tokens or whatever t might be, that you have control over what you do.Is You line up a fixed group of people that you know you're going to beinvolved with over the next few...

...interations of this application. You K,O the common example, is a bar tag where you know you're going to be withthe bar for a certain amount of time. You line them up. You put all of yourstates which could be eat or use between tokens or any state that youhave control over into a single contract and an off chain. You sign,updates with each other literalles coordinating does at every personinvolved in the arrangement signs off in every message. Basically, so that you, as long as you have O seept amongthatfixed Grup, can at any point in time, distribute that state the eath oft the Tokens Back Oun to the blounching. So it's KINDOF, like a sin of a group,Account Hey. Well, that's that's great, but canyou maybe differentiate between state channels and just payment channels? Alittle bit 'cause they're kind, es similar in the way that they function?It's basically the same thing but state channels as the concept that you'reproposing is more generalized and so used the term of general state channels,and maybe you can yeah fenso history. There is that finish, the first timethe term like channels were used for, basically, I think to introduce the thelining network and back then the only function you could do you know, O r bigpoint specifically is is senned right. The function is, I want to send money,and so it naturally it was naturally called payment channels, but theanalogous technique in etherium, because you have more ways in what youcan update state than just the send function, which is what Bidcoin can do.You can have kind of arbitrary functions at a big state. We refer tothem as state channels and historically, what's happened. Is that people tookthe contept of payment channels, the idea that you put money together andyou send it amongst each others in that one cend function and they've justtransited the exact same feature set onto etherium and they call thosepayment channels on atheorium. So they D as You lock in Eath, into a contract,and then you sign Tus just pertaining to a sentence of how the eath isdistributed, Thamongtsto each other and they call those pamen channels. But thereason why we called our technique generalized state channels, is that we're not trying tot as replicatepayment channels on etherium, were trying to replicate the generaltechnique of Banden group together to updike the state of the block chainittherium. And if you take that approach, you can do an enormous number,really interesting things, because the therm doesn't limit you in the same waythat acqointdoes. So as an example, if you look at what Spanchin is built orjust in Generall, you look a the payment channel, it's very Si. It's Arlimit in what you can do. You can send money back and forth. If you look atwhat Raden is done, they expanded that a little bit and they said that onlycan you send eef back and forth, but you can also send e, See Twenty ToketsBacke e forward, and that was the next and F step up from a payment channel.And then, if you go one step above that, and you look about it, this companycalled Funferres guilt. They called their thing fate channel, which is moreof a marketing term, but they Madan, so that not only are you up ding thebalances of F, Ten Okens you're, actually updating the state of aspecific Gasino base game, so my roll on a rulette wheel and the outcome ofthe Spinning of the wheel. That's the state, You'are ditting, we're taking itto the absolute extremely you can do in etherium, which is the state you'reupditing is not hardcato than to any contract. It's just arbitrary etheoryumtransactions, which is a topull like two valued data, just abstractru andwhat you can do. If you look over that level of Abtraction, you can startupdate state on the Bushon in any way you want, and so what we've done iswe've kind of created this model around the state they wecall athe off chainapplications, so that, if you put money into a state channel, you can begin toinstanchate is off applications that pertain to any smart contract. So thatmight be the ticactogame. It might be. A paymant thannel again wereousuptetting balances or it might be a chess game or it might be a derivativecontract. It doesn't matter as long as you can write it in soliditying, acontract, we've kind of included T it as a type of way with which you can usea state channel, but not not the only way. So we don't call these liketictotoe channels or chest channels, or...

...you know, deribatovs contract channels,which cell them eneralized state channels where the types ofapplications you can use can be desfined by the developments. So that'skind of thelt that Wu take it soantit, ast payments and tokens or specificgames, its artofficial arbitrary state that we then promout a framework forIncalcultin within specific developers, interest ton what they want to build ifthat makes sense, so yeah, no that's great. So what is the life cycle ofsuch a game? So the reason I'm asking this specifically now is because therewas a particular challenge that when I saw the SBC talk that Patrick mccarrygave Um when I was in Stanford, he never talkabout battleship and he identified some certain problems with that particulargame m. It was a very good example of something that seems like it shouldwork a Doz't and I'm kind of wondering how you guys are tackling thosechallenges: R and I'm assuming you're familiar with those problems Um for oaudience. Basically, it's it's a challenge issue. So if somebody wouldn'really lock up ther et for twenty four hours, if somebody's messing up, youknow what I mean or if somebody's not not compliant or playing by the rulesof the game and there's a lot of ways, you could grief somebody in such a gamelike that and they found that they couldn't find a solid solution forfixing that I wondering what kind of research you're doing in that area yeah.I think there is t e there is this fundamentala limit that currently there's there's no way aroundthis in any kind of channel or just in general, any kind of offchainconstruction, which is the easiest way to describe. It is e speaker, listener,O fal to gevoloence problem, which is that if you are in a channel withanybody else, Oris in general you're an oftane relationship, wot anybody elseand you sign a message that your counterparty is expected to countersign,but they don't there's no way for any third party, specifically Thar's awayfor a block chain to diferentate between that's the person. Never havingreceived the message or Um that person intentionally not replying to you,forcing you to go to chain, so there's no way to say that if someone's ntreplying to you that they are acting in bad faith. So because of that specificfundamental problem, an always it's always possible for someone to, likeyou said, grief you by forcing you to go to the chain. So the goal of LatoSystem Jis to make it it might be e one of the golds tt later systems is tomake it so that it's impossible, or at least as cheap as possible in thosescenarios. For you, the honest party to resolve the channel and get your moneyback out if your counterparty is being melicious, I think what patricks studydid is they said that at the present, if you would implement it usingpresently known techniques or at least presiently popular techniques, thegriefing costs of a counterparty ind in the average case of a game with thefees that you have to pay in the case that you get like griefed end up beingridiculous in proportion to small types of average games, and maybe a regularconsumer that would ma go an a play up. Lotan game for a small amount of moneywill be willing to pay for the benefits o just plain the game of chape. So I Iwould say with that analysis, it's a useful analysis, but there's twoconclusions that I would come to come from it. The first is that probably we're not going to want statechannel to be things that humans do with each other, like it probablydoesn't make as much sense for me as a human to like load up a website andopen up a channel and just manually plick buttons and use my stay channel.That way as much as it makes sense for bots to do it C, because the reasonit's humans have all kinds of air scenarios where they jus they leave.They they're gone for too long of a time. They forget the cocoputer crashesand lead the crash in areas very frequently. I think it makes much moresense for boxs to be think state channels and different counts ofrelationships where they can be much more reliable and additionally, theycan provide guarantees of their uptime that other people can account for.Since that t, the scenariis, where someone does go off Ling, it's asoftware error and is very infrequent.

I think that's one of the firstconclusions that come from it. The second conclusion is that I think in this study, there's just anumber of techniques that you can use to really minimize that grief, ind costthat so far no one is really done. I think,like an excellent job of building a solution for W we're trying to go inthat direction such that no matter what the type of griefing Stereo is. Theatual cost that you incur as the person being grieved is, is the absolutelyextreme limit o nter of the minimumof that mathat you could pay so think,there's still a lot of Google room for Patrick Study, but, additionally, Ithink it's also true that you want to make sure that you are playing againstsomebody. That's extremely unlikely to greet fo you because it's in theirincentive- and it should always be in their pensentive to not greep you. Thatmakes sense. So there's a lot of oenlation room, but he did touch o havea fundamental limit and he disposed. I in a bit of a grandiou's way. I'd say it was pretty interesting. Actually,the way he he talks about it M. I see what you're saying with the Bots,but you do not see a usecase at all for humans to want to interact with thesethings on a more personal level, I do certainly see a usecase. I just thinkthat 'cause a pan chain to me is a perfect usecase like, even thoughthey're not general. At this point it sounds like they're closer to paymentUm, I it's, it seems like H. People would want to do ondemandpurchasing for low cost, and I don't think necessarily applosibte channel isalways the best. I think it's more along the lines of like the statechannels are really useful for when you, when you're in scenarios where everyoneis insentifized to work together. All the time, if you have scenaros, wherethere's a potential for grieving or someone t to back out of the scenarioand the rest of playing out that scenario gets expensive, R or or lengty,then stay channels. Man Not be the right o pace, but the scenaros were,like the odds of those things happening, arevery low. It may be, it may be worthwhile. I think also that they'rewhatone important point is it. The designed space within which you canoperate in to make types of applications where everybody'sinsedovise to behave correctly is still not that well export explorin tes a lot?U Tosation, to be mainstille like in our the way that we like at l, four andwith the cantocactural project, whether we approach things is we want to Makeitto that for any arbitrary application. It is it's maximumly. The incinms arebuild in Tita that it's always in your intentive just keep on going and tokeep playing ye to keep using the application of getting state andbehaving in a predictable manner, because the not doing that dealy it'ssuch a way that a every minute timestep of upstat updates it's it's just itit's always in it's always newcatous to coperate, and if it's ever not that issiply because of some externality. That is something that Blashs Siprecan'tcapture like the example would be that either you just you fundamentally havea hatred for your counterparty. That makes you want to discreet them, eventhough you might incur a bunch of cost yourself for briefing them and you'lllose money and they'll lose money. You benefit in some way from just griefingthem, because you, you feel satisfied from that righ. That's an example ofexternalities, but but yen. One of the reasons why I that's a human thing ight.What are these? Why? I think computer base systems that do this and that theywill not have those types of of externalities? Additionally, atingsbecome more anonymous and private. You don't really know what you're dealingwith it's just simply an economical cost. It's just simply. You look at theproblem. If I cuak rate I get paid and everything will go smoutly. If I don'tGa of great, I lose money. That's the ony decision that you have to makeit'll always be the case you quaffie so t at that's, that's the designs. spasedan o operate again that we think we want to matonize so H, you've! Obviously, then Y, you musthave mapped out like a ton of like scenarios where you need to mitigatethat kind of risk M. maybe you coald go through those scenarios foraaunity, andso we coand Kindo understand what that risk looks like yeah, I mean a lot ofthese things. End Up being like highly specific, but like one way of lookingat it is Um...

...seem to look at the types of ways thatsomeone could greet you so in tha state channel. You always have a situationwhere you are signing an update. You send him ass to your kind of party andyour expectants for reply. They have a couple of options or ether. You have acouple of optens. If they don't raply, you can either go to chain andbasically force your counter party to make a move, which means that you haveto now incur the gas costs and that sucks for you or you can wait it out for a sertamentof time, but in that case, Youyoure ocurring kind of this opportunity cost,because now your capital is being locked up in a way that you did notinitially want it to be locked up in, because you can't actually use itanymore. S Tocounteprize, on responsible, O N, both cases tare kindofe been curring at cost. So I guess one one of the ways in which we lookedat at designesb fount. A solution is it'spretty straight for Solucontis thatif ever you get in this situation, you the person that Haes to go to the chaincan initially when you se t the channel, have agreed upon with the counterpartythat if this ever happens, we'll split the gas costs in half. So if the otherperson is not repline to you, you going the chain is not like you just payingall of that gas cost on your out of pocket. It's actually splitny with thecounterparty, so you'll pay half e. They have so the cost of someone notreplying to you from their point of view. Actually is not just now. Thisperson Goe t the chain, and I have to wait. It hasthe IA myself paying moneyfor not responding. So that's one way. We can slightly change the thincentives, but Um, not just one ot many and another aother one. I guess Iwould add is that there's Thi there's this problem thatsometimes talkar talked about where it's possible at if you's had theselong, lasting channels with lots of applications and lots of state updatesthat someone might go to the chain and just put all of them on at the exactsame time, coust flooding the chain with channel close command basicallyare challenges. One way that we maniget, that is part of the protocol design isvery periodically. We Kino do Lua bit of a garbage collection. So, as oftenas as humanly possible, we countersignd things saying that if ever you would togo to chain with any of the se of old states, this one single demand thatwe've signed will nullify all of them. So it's kind of of this garbage cllaconPor corpertation process built in the protocol, so that every few updatesyou're kind of recycling, all the old stuff that no longer needs to bedisputed individually and it can be disputed in mass and to us oneadditional way to be added something to the protic call to handle this butagain kind of on the fringes and as as we spelte the portall as what peopleuse it. The hope is that it's just simply the case that no matter howlarge is sin scale, you always have an easy exit. That's cheap for you andIncuri cost for your counterparty IFEVER thereis mosts activity. So again,the goal is just taking simple and cheap and and make the attack fectorsas small as Bossib. That's interesting. When I first learned about Rals,implementation of state channels. A while ago, I was under the impressionthat Um the way that it differen samed itself was that it never initiated thestate on Chan and only basically Um set things up so that anyone could initiate it when they needed to so likeen. You start thinking about the Saye channels. Do you have initiation phasewhere everyone basically puts all of their assets that they would like toput to the channel into to a transaction they broadcast that thechannel is opened and then they interacted each other at nausium untilthey're done, with whatever they're doing and then th Y, when they're done,they agree, they publish whatever the ind state is and what something thatLfour was doing or Ounterfactuar was doing, was basically saying we're notgoing to do the initiation transaction we're just going to set things up sothat at any point, during our our discussion, we can publish the currentstate to the transaction that changes things appropriately. Is that no longerthe case or did I have it wrong? IATLI! That's certainly still the case, Ithink nd. I think, what's happened over the course of the past e years. We'vebeen working on this as that more other people oen falling the same kind oftechnique, um we've. Actually, I think...

...we, I think, we've gotten it to be theabsolute most like minimal API, so the only apeal have on Chan in the onestscenario. So if there's no dispute, which is or not really Tho speek ofpotocal deviation hm I handle in a OPAT way. In the honest case, the only twooperations a you ever see on chain are deposit and withdraw. That's it d. Thisis also why I think it's a good menumal to think Bot sat channels as kind ofthis group activity because Youe to pause it into the group and youwithdraw from Tha Group and thate. I the only actons you ever need to doeverything else. It just signatures offchain, so we never actually, in thehonest case, put any state on Chan or even reference the application. That'sBeeng used on chained at all. So if you and I, for example, wanted to open up astate channel, what we would do is just I would put inwhatever I want to put in this a channel you would put in whatever youwant to put into the state channel. That's all you'd see on Chane an an offchain. You speak the COUNTERCAPTURA, a protocol which Yo the software that wehve does all that all amattic before you and we have begin saying Okas. DoIt to Tato Game Tat, set up a contract for difference? Let's agree on thisOracle at some point: the future jusfiguring out how our money isdistributed and we do all kinds of agreements just specifically between usand then you know that might updit our balances that we perceive between eachother and at any point in time. I want to take some money out. I just go tothe CHAIAND, say: Oni, withdraw this amount out. You would countersigne thetbecause you were being honest and then somemodey would leave o just put themoney in take the money out and Inbetween Youre using this occcaineprotocol, which you know is, is designe as this way to be secure and minimally.You know minimal attack, braters and things like this, so yeah. Definitelywe've designed it to be the most spare bones. I interface is possible. Weactually like one thing we want to do is because of suc a basic interface andthe only actual aunch infunction that you need is the ability for us to agreeon things next to you, the transaction, which is basically a multisig. What weactually want to do is try to get state channel as itself the API for thatBilltente like the Etri Corpprotocal ofagiti Cor LIKESRBC, that ther exposesand h have the Moldi Sik itself be a primitive on etherium. So in the idealworld, all possible multisix already exist. We just put money in and out ofthem, as as we will and use the sation Porto call. Whenever the body's inthere that'stithink that's Ta the OPTIMM end result of channel, I it'sjust a goup cotocall for a dealing with money. That would be that'd be quite awonderful thing because not only Ourmocisig, our a wonderful thing tohave as apprimitive but th that that having a porticol like that with theminimal Ibi um generalizes, what can be done with awith a a Moltin sick account quite well and really really sens the tone forwhat the placuts actually use for, which is just they althe end all truthof the handling of money, the actual business logic associate withapplications, businesses whatever can be done off chain in its own trust,environment, and not necessarily the trustless one that is blocthing yeahyeah. I really I real do hope. This does start to happen, and I think weshould one thing that we should be doing intonerally a bit more in theintern like internals and he corpporter Calle eelornment to try and get thesethings lugged in like th. We have like a track ar or this working, which is,for example, at the crate two OPCOE. We push pretty hard for that, becauseonething that that gives us is that you have te Termisic your dressing for allmultisigs. So we don't Atua need to create the all to see on Jane and so wou've been able to do it beforemy gaing up could actually merge into the main if TYEU're inspect. So I thinkmost people underestimate that a teram is willing to adopt things that makethings better, so yeah hopl the we can do it in the future O. can you tell us a little more aboutwhat it takes to build this from a team perspective from a design perspective?What what do you? Actually? What is the...

...what ies your experiment look like? Howdid this start and what is it evolved into in wha you kow? What is the co Um,so yeah, so one of the things that ihad learned from having been doingbusinesses in the past, I startup so that it's extremely important to have the right incentives, everybodyinvolved in the any particular project and so right at the star when we startedworking on state channels. Can I ask myself: Is Thi a business eerpeopleGoin to pay for this? Is You know I should be run a hub? Should we in someway? Maybe we should do consulting or something like that, but nothing reallymade much sense, because the fundamental way that we look atthis whole problem is that this should be o primitive enetherium. It's a basicdata structure and a basic protocall that just doesn't itself need to be branded or inany way done in its own like unique way, and so so. The way that we approached it isthis should be novanosh project. We should run it kind of like what youlook in the Web community like react or like or ember, or things like that andso Um. Basically, the way look t at it. Just like: Let's get a bunch of goodreseach out there meet other people that Unereston this problem and try ingt structure, a project that can get all of them working together withoutcompromising on you know who owns it or who has control over it, simplyjothickly trying our best to make this its own open source project. So that'show we approached it. We actually have now l four, my company developers thatwe have basically being paid to work on this anditionally. Another companycalled Pototypol that is also paying developers to work on this, and, aswe've gone about this over the past year, we've also attracted a handful ofother independent developers is enteerting ing the problem, and soeverything we do is as public its it's all open source. Anyone can come in andwell help them Gou to speed with it. We also would l we alsolove partner,otthe projects, for example, with Hiza Tha, Patipl coise working on and just ngenemally speaking e UStrying to startit in such a way that we get the best quaality portical the help.Ith RM AIC lead the charge of Y. U K W layer, two protocolls and a developmentof applications and Leer too do it in a way that is cohe seves, so the peoplecan learn from what we're doing and actually bilng top of it, and neverreally deviate from that poor goall at somewhine in the future. Maybe somebusinesses will emerge, but right now we just want tha build something thatgoes right into like a mestle's righe there like comfortably into the ter andprotocol se, say channels can just be common good that everyone benefits fromin the meantime. You know, because blachanes have this kind of thistreasury notion of that the original you know, people the lawgs that chainedthat foundations have funds were funded by the teamfoundation and it's in everyone's incentive. Basically, they want to see if they am succeed, they want tosee erer called grow. We ourselve Ertes in the techology an we want to see theprotocal girl as well. We wanted to succeed, and so you know we're fundedin order to to do exactly that. So that's the way we approach it at themoment we have, I think, in total, there are seven or eight engineer yearsthat spend full time or or very close to full timeon atural development of the whole Texak and yeah, and it seems to begrowing and B A bunch of people coming all the time that are interested incontributing, and so the goal is just you know learned from things like emberand other open soce projects. How you run a community like this and Tu do ourbest to see a Grovo that makes e. So I notice that L for is called elwhereadventures, Um, and so I guess that is what you were just talking about. Whatis your relationship of Tha counterfactonal? How do those two,inter o this too quorely yeah so so lfor is a very interesting company.Basically, what it is is it's myself and the others in the company that hada similar kind of passion for etherium in this community, and we didn't really know how to monitizeor what exactly to do. But we really...

...really wanted to work on Li corpootecall the elementary really wanted to see it ucceed and so the way weapproache it is just teaming up and will create different types of ventures,whether they', open souce projects or orther kinds of things. I can talkabout in a minute that alall benefit from being worked on by the samegeneral group, and so what we do right now is we work on counterfactual andthat's the kind of way that reframe it is that we just have engineers that weput full time on counterfactual to help that product grow, but we ourselvesdon't own it and we also work on eeath global, which is basically a haccophoneorganization that every few months of basically, you run a large Theriampacathon like you, may have seenneath, waterloor or Etonisares or eath Berlandor Ethindio, all the Woll, these different agethons and the goal ofthose just get developers into tegersystem. So again, that's OtherisInitiaf to HEALP sstem grow myself and some of my friends and people that arenot in for but they're, all so passionate about this that you know.I've worked with over the past several years, help with it and we do thistogether, and so it's a really good initiative and some of the people thatare working, Bova, all sor, kiunderfactual and so there's a niceoverlap there. So just I think it's important to understand the separationof concerns with ywith regards to everyone's insentive. My intentive isobviously to have my company and the people involved be very happy and doWoro eatiful stuff and for the things that we're working on to to pay themwell but separately. The things that were working on, I could lead to areally good inresult for the state colors of Balle, which at the moment ismostly the everine community itself that you know Bo Prot in the pinition ofunding us these projects, so we've global. We hope that we can get a bunchof developers on board the INTLEER system and that'll lead to moreinteresting things being built, or you know more users, affectively, demanding,docimentation and good. You know scenarios from which the Corppote arcall developerscan use for feetback or had to develop the protocol and thenseparately with Caunterfatuar. We hope that we can lead to really useful toolsfor those exactine developers to build useful applications so and in the day it's just like it'sit's our company that we think is doing good theequersystem and the way that wedo good is do these projects that we ensure V on involved with his properlyINSENTIVISS to work on. So let's talk about counterfactural for a second'cause, you guys just released to playground and that's like a it's actually gonnaw sort of play withhi stuff that you're talking about so ay. You can give a big old announcementand tell us how people coun get involved in that idefinitely. So one ofTho, so my backgrund I gess from Starte, is alwaystaldme like you need to be able to communicate affectii to people. WHAT ISTHE VALUE OPOTITOM WAL bee working on and what is it, the Minimum Bibleproduct in some way that you can get out? That shows that value probem andwith this project theth state channels, the MB pis surprisingly complicated,but really that's what the plag goof it. So it's this thing we just released acouple of days ago, not as a product or anything like that that wershipping asas a company but simply as a developer, like sandbox environment, that showsoff all of the technology pebe working on reecently to productionized stateCETES. So what it is, is it's a website that you can go to you cratan accountwith the website and what that does? Is it crrates, a state channel between youand a hub, which is something that we're running phasically on a horropeserver in the background and then what you can do is anyone else. That'scrated an account, a state channel with this hub. You can opem with pull thevirtual channel with them to play an the arbitrary therinbasc game, Oapplication in general and the two that we had putn on their TITATO and Thistice rolling game where the higher of two dishwols went so me and to show upa goer rand of this. So the point of this droject, this playground, ISS thatany person anywhere in the world can just go to this website, which isplayground, dot, counterpack to a Dacom. They can load it up, they can use itand they can see what it mean to have.

You know the power of general estatechannels put into a production applipicion, which at this case is justvery simplest. You pratin the count. You deposit your money in you, do anyall this stuff off chain and then, whenever he want Tou keep withdrawmoney out, just as I said, andinstead of it, just being, you know, be talkingabout it or presentation in a slide deck whatever it might beat. It's atangible production, redy AP, that's running in your browser that you canlook, look and Keel and see or its like. So that's what the playground is andthe co part is everything that's on the playground. All the coat is open,sorrow s. You can peruse it on our gihed and you can see how this is all built. We've taken anapproach with development itself, Sich that all the pieces are reasonablymodular, so the applicastions themselves are built with thisdeveloper library, aiaaches, the the environment called the playground withits own envirnenvironmental container, it kind of mimixs a wallet and, in factthat's pcidic piece o of the codes being merged into meadow mask right now,to kind of show you what it would look like to have state channels, puilt andTeursday Chennel Wall itself and additionally be have this now, which isthe coarse oftware that runs in the browser, and it's also the samesoutwfare that we're running in the cloud that is like ere, state, pennel,node and, of course all the pro calls hegoal is to be able to go to Anyan aperson and sit down with them. Explain my stat chale are interesting and thenshow them. This demo show them the coat that have them say. Oh, I see I get howyou can build this. It's not some obscure, complicated research,constantly more it's it's there, it's in code. It makes sense, you know now.I could begin to either use it or contribute to it in a way. It's sane.It makes sense, it is adonting. As most you know, blanching RESEARC poblemstend to be so. Are you targeting one specific type of language or platformor like is there is? Is it just a sweet o tool that you can integrate into anyproject yeah? So presently everything is written, a type script mostlybecause well, there's a couple of reasons on is it's. You know it's avery simple developer language people can read and understand, and two it'svery easy to get then running in an od process or in the browser and from ourpoint of view, in order to show this to people taso they get it. You reallywant it to be in an envaronment that they feel comfortable with and familiarwith, it's much easier to say just go to this website than it is to saydownload. This bineary burn it in the terminal. The background and then openup this thing and then it's too complicated and from one of the thingswe've seen, for example, with with with Radin, is that if you want to run yourown Raden note, it's all there's his huge python clying in the download Havto deoly steps and that's small little friction point. It just limited thenumber of people that interact with it. But with this you go to website it'srunning like immediately. You just load up the website immediately. You nothave a state channel Wallot that you can put money into. So it's it's a veryimportant way to kind of get people's attention because they can just easilyacthat Ho that the main motivates behind. Why we built it the way we didso far. I think that, as you productionize this to the point whereyou're going to have real money- and you want thus to be truly performant-you can have different clients that implement the protical. So there mightbe like a rust client that we work on in the future, but again taking himmore like an start up, itter o approach, we don't want to put w. We don't wantto get away Hend of ourcelves here. This is still like early early days, SIblock chains and super earleer state channels. Let's just get somethingworking in unenvironment that has minimal friction for people to getinvolved with it, and then, when that starts to work, and we shalhave to seepeople wanting to do stuff with it and they use cases Ta more complicated andhave more commands than have the engineering in the technology begin tofollow those those demands and that use heir feedback vurses assuming some kindof extreme end state scenario ears on the line of doing that. First, so wedon't have any particular bias cinto like how this thing should ultimatelyget built in ideal with a we just want to buy us, forgetting something thatworks. That shows the functuality in people's hands as soon as possible andthe simplify the actual code itself and and the concepts that are used so thatit's easy for any developer to get started with it.

I think perhaps like from ourespriencewith these glol unning these axathons, where we have all kinds of newdevelopers all the time getting into the COSISTEM. They don't have time tounderstand all the ridiculous complexity of this of the secosystem. Ijust want to know how o I build a descentrise at how do I do that? Giveme like t the getting start to guide the how too the otorial that yeto video,and so we want to be able to get from where we are to that in answers to thatquestion. Is it as possible? That's like that's! What motive motivates ArPartaboutrbasialy trying to do what cryptizombis did for Smart ContractDevelopment M poor? You Know State Channel Development and I think a OgtUS apt instance development. I guess you could say is that appropriate waythat use thatterm yeah? I think I think it's. I think it's state channelapplication development. I I I don't really like the term Dat and so ' I'vkind of generally avoided use in that term, but I in the way that it is used in in theterms of people referring to like a threebase applications. I would justsay this is still a dapt. It just happens to be the case that, instead ofmaking contract calls every time you want to do a state up date. You justmake calls to a node, and you use our API to do that. So it's the sameconcept of building a dapt. You just have a different back in API thathappens to return things faster and doesn't cost guest, but the samegeneral concept. Just out of curiosity, I already cutyou off, but Um. The the interesting thing that keeps coming up came up withGeorgios Atrick is that state channels will be a very good alternative to running smart contracts directly onsomething like a a what's convetually called Plasmachin. Um Patrick has another word for it. Whith.My brain is blanking on yet again Um. What do you Manan? CALLD? Itaquitchanthank you WH. What do you see? Those two playing in with each otherand how do you think, maybe h state channels so, for instance, one of thegrief thing w wastto grief is incurring a fee cost for a challenge. Um By youknow withholding the pract that you've received something and then grief yousomebody that way, but that's because when you do the onchain commitments andall that stuff, each each transaction has a cost associated with T,especially since you're committing state, which is storage, cost, which isper two hundred and fifgty six mints is, is twenty thousand. You know m gas so to allfload some of that. Some ofthe things that they discussis is possibly merging. The two COOURmergings out the right word using the two concepts of the commit chain, a CA,plamachain and state channels together, so that you cund kind of like mitigatedesperate. How do you see that future kind of evolving yeah? So I think I think it's really important to and patric is a good job of this anhislike separation of concerns. Is it it's different, O the two techniquesin terms of when they're, useful Um, the easiest fay for me to describe it,is that with state channels they're, the best case cristy channel is whenyou know specifically who you're going to be interacting with, and it's notunknown so it'. It's things like payments between fixd future people.It's things like you know, games like Ticato or contracts, wher, theyrebasial, the participants sed, is fixed in any situation. WHERL. You know whoyou're going to be enteracting with ahead of time. It's it's. It's clear.The channels are always the best way to go in any situation. Plasma or just more generally cpitchains are useful if the text applications where you don't know whoyou're going to be interacting with a head of time. So you know dexes arrealoexample, market places of any kind like this. You know public commits that youwant to say hey to the public. This is something aneed everybody understandand be aware, an orderbook, that's where plasma really shignesbecause wish they channels you...

...fudamentally, can't expose thisexternal state to the world. It's locked within the fixed group. That'sreally I like, in terms of when you need to decide so the US plasmosonstate channels or is in general. What is what's the difference? That's that'sLi. That's fundamentally the difference. It's always embara o no had o Teo Oo.At any point like do you see them actually like interacting with eachother yeah seddenly. I think that the way that you're going to interactwith them is, I don't think, there's any kind of likemagical new third type of term that we can coin for the interaction betweenthem. I think it's just. I think the interaction between state channels andplasma is the same as the interactine between state channels and the mainchain. The only difference is that, if it state channels on class mode, youget all the benefits of state channels and all the benefits of Plasma Um, atleast for the specific application that you're, using with the restrictions ofstate channel stone. If that makes sense, so an example would be. If youhave a plasma chaine and you have an account on the clasma chain, then youget this. Nice benefit that you're probably not going to pay fees, and youdon't have to go to the main Chaim and tell you what t duanything one thing you can do: testate channelsand you can up in an upupstate channel between your account and any othereccamp on the plazma chain, so that, in addition, dont happen to go to chainfor say that for whatever you're doin the pocke chain, you also don't need togo a chain orowing to pay fees for the deposit and the withdraw step, which Imentioned, is the only two steps you need to worry about. The state channels,O th Toigiv wit, so depositing withdrawing can become feelless as well.So that's a nice benefit right. If you have a Clazmachain, then pretting estatchannels, isestally, free and there's no reason not to do it in thatcase, but I think it's important to make sure that Unin. I the two distinctsolutions which happen to work well with each other, but that both offerdistinct benefits compared to using the mainchain individuay eventens yeah,they're, isolated logically from each other, so that it's important to makesure t. We we understand that they are too separate development paths, butthey do have this sort of like correlative like we. We probably shouldbe working together, so they're all compatible with each other. So ifthere's a standard for state chains and there's a standard for plasma, Pasmashould probably implement the Standar for state change as well, so that hecan t get all the benefits of the spop Ar histy state channels as well as Icould get all the benefits of them yea. We actually have a pretty cool projectthat we're. We have an announced et that ritisn embarking on now, which is effectively doing like precise to that is insuringthat kind of leading plasma chain developers or or Generaly speaking,that the standards that are being implemented R classmen chains have theability to support channels out of the box, the most recent develepant, anplaer change, which is this preticate technique, which is basically the ideaif that for Anygivin coin in the Clasma Chan, you have a different texic game.So if you have a coin, there represents saying oewen, it's opend or I itrepresents aiio whatever it might be. When you AC to go to chain as adifferent mechanism for how you distribute that back to whoever es andowns it, and so will we've developed in apredicate that works for State Channel Bates Assets, so they physicallyMaltisic creditor. So the most important thing being that if you havesome point up an APLASA chain, you have the ability to say that this specificcoin actually represents something that is owned by valtile people and use theMULTISEC creditot. For that, the predicate Jun terminology is coined basically by this plazma groupteam and you can see all of their code as Wellwich o a source, and so that'sthe first AF. The second half is with counterfactual occus, the actualframeor that we besign can store arbitrary state again like eh or n etenty token or Ors, one topened or or literally anything, because our ourCOURP primnitive is just atoin trasuction. What we, what we're doing,is o building an example counterfactual...

APP which using clasmcash coins as theactual state that you have under your state channels, control andso one of the cool things ht we're going to be able to ship in the nextlittle while after we build all of this is on the playground. Probably Oll putthis an application where you actel the PLOSOF money into a classman chain, butthen you begin to interact with other people that are also in a state channelthat affected to that Classma Chane to do any of these games. So I think DECTOR highroller any other game that we have in the demo. You can not bebetting Geef, but you can actually be betding PLAZMAC cash coins and the coolthing is that again, like I mentioned a deposit and withdraw step will beinstant to the entire experience will not involve the authereum chain at all.Lik You want have to do any tronds, AC systom in a mask which is really cool,so we're already embarking on this kind of development ron AK at the moment. I'm very happy to hear that. That'samazing, I I oten on that one. It's Kinda, like I like to ask this questionto a lot of people. Whowe have on whoare, looking at kind of thefundamental protocols and and layers of the stack that in that serving variousapplications and users. How do you see in user eventually interacting with thetechnology? Do you see it as completely ocfuscated from the induserand they experienced the same thing? They do ith centralize applications, ordo you see a fundamentally different way in which they interact with thingsand, if so, like? What are the iepretators of why this is important toDoin the first OCE yeah? So I think that all of this stuffends up just becoming an API that you call in Han application the same wayany oit te than the other Ehtis cauld, and it just happens to be an API thatoffers you a very specific benefit, which is that for things that have todo with state that you control personally, your own. You now eatthyour funds when it's either tokenor some other state that you c an careabout that. You now have access too, because of your basically Lotchas. Youcan trustlossly interact with that state through some logic Biazabya, butit's the same way that you would call an Epi up to t e database record on acentralized website, or some company Ithis happen to be the case at this.API works, regardless of any ticular company. It just works using all thesepe colls be developed. So I think, at the end of the day, all wewre realid todo is provide a dead, simple way for any intisting application to replacethe centralized services that they already use with an essentialized onewith the absolute minimum amount of tradoffs possible and ideally a benefit that actually helps theirthreatst, their their business usecase. And so that's what whatall oouts do Imean a good good way of looking at this is met a mask right now, t's, a Bein inyour face. You have this thing on o the Browser Bun, it's significantly betterthan literally running osay like a block chain in your browser and makingcalls of that thing. This is I absurd obstruction of technology in the baseof a user. whove go down to a comic tention, so you just have to clic abutton every now and then that's pretty nice ut. We can do much much better atanother day. You should never see anything to do with a block chain intouser experience. You should just have ne USAR experience and be able to relyon whatever the promise is that the application gives you and even if youWillinto, inspect the source goat to see that it's using these a hoseprotocalls in wither. You can trust the same way that we have all thisinteresting stuff to do: Secure Transport, secure, messaging and secure.You know: Distribution of Web assets, which is itself incidingly, complicated,an intusting and evolve alk kind of Crypto, but all a user sees an a littlegreen lock in the URL bar. That says this site is secure. That's all t eyneed to see, so I think the Ond of day th t that's what blockchain nd all ofthis stuff they ewring o wil amount to is just you know a little green lock.They let you do something new and that'. THAT'S THE USA! The actual marketincentives that will disdevel decide...

...what kinds of products the businessesget built. That's a whole different question, Ou know: theres the userexperience yeah just a little green lock. I think so. What's the Dream Roomlike th that that's like yeah mean you you'v Youve outlined e future from userexperience, sanple like B, What's the dream from a Societ Olympac? What'swhat's what's the ideology driving you yeah? I think that I, I don't think Inecessarily subscribe the same way that others do to this: the Centralization Movement in general for all things. Ithink that that's a really nice direction to head in, but I don'tpretend that that is the direction that that's the an state that we're going toarrive at. It's kind of like saying this particular like way which OsiStock Rade itik socialism would be. This beautiful end stay whereaveonewinds out, but when you put into practice you realize all these weirdsituations that occur because of human behavior that doesn't really make itwork. I don't think that it's worthwhile to say that I'm like at theCentrali Maximlus and that's the way the world should be because it's justimpractical to make real large SOCI citals changes with that kind ofmindset. I think the mind that I have is that this is e technology, whichintroducs a fundamental new concept. You can now move value around without abittle man. That's basically hat that's the only thing it really provides, andso thathat we can do that. What types of situations exist? Ine Society, wherethe middlemen can very easily get cut out in a way that doesn't reallydisturb human behavior and let's just replace those things of betertechnology, and when those things get replaced, there will be new businesseswhich can emerge because of it, for example. The most basic example is thatwith state channels or ost en better example, is that he blacc chaine nowthere's this notion of a Miter, that's a new type of business that neveradjusted before. But now people can do that and they can make money. And youcan you know you can fensil make a living from that kind of new behaviorexists in the world, and so and so businesses will begin to do that. So aswe build the technology to get rid of Bhasically, not necessily, Ren seekingAbov the wrong term, but thusines is hat exist in society that could easilybe removed by better technology weare replaced then with new kiunds ofbusinesses, which others will then fill in with different companies that areaddressed. The market demand for it and thet will just take a step forward.What to a small iteration of forward Oor societis at, but by no means I'we're going to build a utopia with all of this. We just Goin to slightlychange the incentives in a way that makes basically sociedty islightly better.Just because we're getting rid of midtlemen that are slow and Uraqriticcan have unnecessary technological belays because it just haven't, usedthe latest technology or less so tat, O AC little man and see if, if there's,if they're, if you think that they're actuallygoing to be fully replaced or only partially replaced by this. Well, evenlike I think, Ia ot is I it's KINDOF hard tolook at it that way, because there's not really full or partial replacementlike one one way to look at it is. It would be very nice if we could say ill.This global sentralized asset exchange for all assents and completely givid ofthe New York, sockxchange and all kinds of exchanges, and just make it a humanright that you have the ability to exchange with your other vuments likethat sounds amazing, that's great! But it's not like that vision kills. Thecompany of the Ne New York, Socke chates, The York sockee change is justthe collection of humans that currently have a way business works, but astechnology adapts, they're going to slowly m grate over to different thingsthat makes sense space mythocology. So you know an itsn'l take a long time.Presently we're thinking. Okay, WEL WEK! We can use the technology to digitallyrap, ejisting securities and trade them over the botching protocal, which willmaybe be easier for people to access, but you know, arguably still be slowerthan just te existing rails, a just a ball. SREE, for example, but it leaseto be ore open, and so what they're going to do is they're going to slowlyadapt to that and build things that...

...brage into that system, but the actualisisting company, Onear, O Change, will diep make me this unelistice to thinkthet, we're going to change society and a fundamental like, and our anarchykind of way is more so lightly changing the incentives that will lead to newbusinesses at Amerge and we're just pushing society forrd slowly, one stepat a time. I think it's just a bettermental model 'cause. It leads themore realistic outcomes, Noan Ols any received as a threat, likeJa, put up their own coin, so we want that. We want th those people startplaying with this stuff, using it seeing how how it could be integratedin while it might be their own chain and their own coin. At least it's astep in a direction where they're going e. We need to probably adopt this. Imean at the end of the day. None of us is getting rid of a middleman. It'schanging the mittle man to be something. That's fundamentally different and theyat like say, for instance, Pickwin Buc coin is maybe changing the mittle man from a bank, asmall cbal of people with heavilines heavily bias and sentence to the minorsto verify transactions who were playing a fair game and it's ver very, verydiff, very, very difficult to Coont, and there also an these things are run.My software ound, my math or so on and so forth. That are also difficult to.We remove the greed associated with the varification of transactions or abilityto censor, and so you're justyou're moving these middlemen into somethingthat's mere distributed. Detributenterfar and the context forthat makes more sense. A wore would want something like that, or people canarbitarialy make decisions that affect a bunch of people based on a smalldesire or whim yeah. I think an important thing to like that note to tomention, as that it's it's creating new incentives that lead to new types ofbusinesses that can fill in the gaps, Um that maybe did tin just before,because they were just completely locked out, for example, it'. I can'tre list and ASS it the near Stonk change right now, it's slieingpractical, but if we had allt EA coll, then yeah I could easily just likethrow one in there and itjust be an open protocol. However, at the moment I can't do that right, soI think the way to look at it is if we do this, we open up the possibility fornew businesses to come in, but it doesn't necessarily mean that thatthey're going to be this dicentralized purely distributed group of peoplethey'll, probably still be centralized in the way that we have like prettycentralized minors and Yo. T E, like Neor, for example, and in most tatanelnetworks, will probably be large, centralized hubs, but that's not aproblem just because it does not. Everything in the entire stack isdistributed imperfectly even way. The difference is that we have Asen theequality of opportunity for everybody to be able to participate in this newmodel and the best businesses will still went out. It's kind O, like thecentralization in some ways, is N. it's slightly like approximated, disequal,equal outcome, kind of idea, but that's not what it represents. It's just equalopportunity in the sense that new businesses will emerge that anyone canparticipate in instead of being locked out by Gayekeepers, but it doesn't meantht they're, going to win, there's still going to be businesses that willdominate those new Um new confectors to make wat. I think that's good. I thinkthat's a good way for Capitalis. Am that kind o keep moving forwd using thetechology, so I agree M. I think it's also a great way to kind of wrap upthis episode. Are there any questions or or things that you would have likedus to discuss that we didn't get around asking about Um? No, I think I'm good at to my pointof view. Ur Team in L, foreign ith, the CAUNTERFACTURAL project. Our mainmission right now is just keep getting this protocall to be simple and easy tounderstand and have tangible intry points for developers to t to look etit and build on it with, and so I just hope that we can get any feedback. Wecan have people looking at it and telling us what they think, andhopefully we can just keep moving forward to the team to make it to thatmore people at care about this stuff. Gatually, take an ax item and and useit as soon as possible, separately with ease global. The other thing that we'reworking on we're actively running pacathons across the world. Every fewmonths we have Cape Town in Aprilwe're,...

...going to be doing waterloo latter on this, Her New York,Boston, India, and so, if you ever wantto just kind of pack on itthroughrelated stuff, then you know feel fore to come to our acathons andthey're free fof everybody. So it's simply a matter o kind of having funbuilding stuff of the psechology ill. Back that up, I was been to a few ofthem. I I swear by them, they're, wonderful events, and I will continueto go to them and and and contribute Um. How can people reach out? How canpeople geamard swetter at Leam iorn, also Capllia a emails Liam at l,Forvidao Orgiswa hat quickly? We have a Cha catirfactural, it's just chap dot.COUNTERFACTURAL DOT COM and Ho can thack with me Thei'm, pretty widelyaccessible, OPANIC and l. If you enjoy this CIK the suscrib button pit thelight button share it onto it. Her could find US AC A podcast on hashingit out pod on pitter at COR. Petty and Colinsa Calincuche Co, Llin, cus, CS AAlot, Lamm appreciate Tou come on. Yeah TEX IS GREAT.

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