Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 48 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #48 - MakerDAO pt. 2 - Nik Kunkel

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

MakerDAO has built a token that is reasonably stable with the USD. We have the great pleasure of interviewing Nik Kunkel, Head of Backend Services at Maker. In this Part 2 of 2 on Maker, we talk about the technical design behind developing Maker. Please listen to Part 1 of 2 (previous episode, #47) before this, as it's essential for understanding the principles guiding the design decisions. This is compelling work, and truly amazing how well it's standing against the throes of the fluctuating markets.

Links

https://makerdao.com/en/

https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/

https://twitter.com/makerdao

Now anterin kindwelcome to hashing itout, aasfer wethouhk to the Seck inovator's, mind, block ininfrastructure and decentralized networks. We dievinto the weeds togetat Wyand. How people build this technology, the probese they fase eonthe way I'm listing Alarne from the best in the business you can join orretback everybody for forty eight park. twomaker first part you have a cunkle from thelead of backhend services. I am Dr Cor penty and my cohost called Cichet Akacrrecg right or the opposite. I don't know how you want to say that I'mRogeveno okay, sweet, I'm just all the people put me on all the white papers.Put me on all the the scams put me on everything. I'M GIN TO BE TIED ON WHENWE GO to Utah next and yeah. Just this keeps ball roll man imsnt, whoever thehell I want to be so. If youe listening to this, you did not listen to the lastepisode, stop go back and listen to that episode,even if you think you know how maker works quite well. I'd still like that.I feel, like se, listen to it to see if ye tell you anything, you thought youknew but didn't know, or we got something wrong. I assume we didn'tbecause mixed with us, he would have told us, but this episode or thast episode wasbasically giving you a quality overview of I'd, say the maker by ECO system, how it works, but the hell, the valueflows, kind of the INS and outs and some and some I guess, Ayo frequentlyask questions that a lot of people may have heron the system. This episodewe're going to try and dive into engineering side of it as to Um how it works. Technically, we havequite a few questions there, an Monch Fiss, the other conversation GOS, sowe'l come back nick appreciate you doing this yeah let'sl. Let's start, I think Idon't know where Yeu were starting o workls, O Yeah Nick. What's a smartcontract, our audience tos had already so yeahoracles. What are they? What are you guys dealing with them? How do theywork um? You ask the right guy. So me and Myana Ponci, also maker Wer- were theoracles guys M, so our orcles are actually m like used by everyone in the space. Ithink thit's, like a little known. Like fact, I actually Isit. So I I've made adonation at that. Does kindof automatically donverts how much peoplehave donated to our patgast in the Bin Network Bodcass in n order to to findthe price of eth? U S dollars. I use I make use ofYel orcal yeah I made that's really comton so, like all of DFI is prettymuch using a rhynaw like set compound Dix, Darwagnosis ager, all of hise guysum hi. Can we trust him? So it's essentially it's FederatedTrust. So e we talked the last episode. How and careholders make all of thedecisions while they also decide who they want to be an orcal so who isallowed to be pushing a prices so right now we have fifty orchalds that are all ki pushing prices for Foratheriam andwhat the smarl contract effectively does as it takes the medium of thosefifteen prices and that's the price that is atused by the system. So, finally enough Um, so I've beenwhen I've been working on the past year, actually is our kind of next Gen Oraclearchitecture that we're going to be releasing alongside multicolloteral dy,and I think it has. I think it has a lot of advantages to to the currentmodel. So in the cuent model, everyone who is running an oracle client, so allof those fifteen people, r organizations they have a smarl contract- that'sthat's owned by them. That's kind of like a cash, so it's like where theycand ot push their prices to, and then they kind of poke our medianize, oursmart contract, which you know reads from all of them and takes the meediingUm, that's kind of it's kind of an inefficient model. 'CAUSE, it means, ifyou have an Oracles, you know if you're doing an price, updays and transactions, and so when you think about almostextelateral die, you think. Well, you...

...know we're going to have you know, potentially hundreds of not thousandsof of assets instead of just one with with ef like we like, we have right now,um we needed copot with something that was much much more scalble so effectively. What we did is anythingthat you could put off chain in some kind oferifiable manner. We did so there's a very, very little left to do on shape,so so what we do right to what we're doing in the next GIN is that all ofthese oracles they're now not pushing their prices on Chan anymore, they're,not pushing a transaction instead. What they do is they sign a message, andthis message is: it has the asset pername. It has the price and has aTipestam, and they sign this message with their etheory in Privaty, and so now you've basically createdthis. This signature Aso, you have the price, you have the TIMESAB and youhave this signature that verifies that you know this came from from avaladorchal and you put all of these oracles in this purdappier gossipnetwork m. So the particular one we use is called SCUNALOT, but it's it functions very similar toto other gossip networks. Anderfor your Osers, maybe more familiar with whatthat is. You can kind of think of it liketwitter. So if I'm following Cory and Chlory is falling Colin and calm kindof Post, Something Since Cori is falloing Colin he's andhe sees that and he's gonna. Think of it like retreating, it now coras postedCollins's message, and now, since I'm connected to cory, I see the messagethat Corey poasted from Colin, and so you can see how this kind of propagates,through the network very very quickly through these kind of Pur to peer Umconnections and so effectively what you have now,as you have thisapper to Pur Network of all of these um gossip price messages,and you can have these third party enerties coming and so in our in themakor ecosystem. We have this concept called a keeper and what a keeper is.Is it's really just any m? It's like a thought that you run that it makes youmoney right. It does some useful service for the system and it earnssome type of Partrom, and so what happens here is that so, for example,cor you could be running a keeper andeffectively. You would become amember of this pure to pere gossip nowwork, and you would see all o theseprice messages and you would collect a bunch of them and put theminto one single transaction that you then push on Chan and you grecompensated Rit, your gas cost plus like a little bit extra feet, and sothat's how you incentevize these third parties to to push these transactions,and so that you'll find now is that, instead of having an oracles andNtransactions, you can have an oracles one transaction and that scales muchmuch much better so and what we've managed to do. There is actualy produceour costs Um. By about ninety eight per cent. What are you going to do about? Maybelike span protection and griefing thi type of network because say multlepeople can be SONA keeper. I imagine would aggregate and Te Omedian of allof the different worcals that is receiving bas on some given asset andthen publish the median of whatever he has for a given asset. As on all the Ohat work, I imagine that it's balndated only bythe signature of Um appropriate people who can beoracles right, 'cause, they they're just therh'e they're Patilly, setting amessage and passit on. Is there a way to like Erform, aclisattacks and the typeof network to try and coral the coral, a given price based on C collusion? Isthere a way to maybe spay on the network, so you can kind of deed onf itin subway chaper form ecause. I I work for work for status, so we'redefinitely worried about these sese of things quite a bit, and so when you, when you change R, myfederated network, where you have a lot of redumpancy, the cost of efficiencyand train turn everything off by lowering those costs, you maybepotentially introduce attack fectors or someone an can can sway things. Haveyou have you thought about these things in a sow? What have you thought about yeah? I mean, of course, ther were allvery valid points and we c we can definitely get into that. I ai you wantto do that so the effectively. What what the GameTheory comes down to is. Can you get fifty one percent of theOracales right to to Collude Ri? So so it's very similar kind of in terms oflike you know, watching Hash power. Rihtancan you GE, oon percent, theavker. Can you get fifty one percent of the oracles h to to collude and...

...so in in terms of span, for example, there are kind of built in kind,ofregulatory, nd of behavior, that each of the orapales is running. So if oneORCL is behaving KINDOF, maliciously or trying to spam it or Dedos it like itcan just cut it out. For example, I can put it on like a thirty minute time out.You know and like you know, after thirty minutes, it's uh, I says, HeyI'll, be your friend again and it's still, you know spanming it like. No,you go right back to the timeout quarter m. You also have well this.This I'm still kind of working on, but I want to kind of make into a stakingmodel. Might wher effectively oricls, put up stake, Um and then have somekind of challenge response mechanism. So if I'm an Oracle and Corisonorcaland Cori Yo're putting out some what I think are malicious prices, I can sendyou a challenge message and you will recognize that chillen'smessage and you can either ignore it. In which case you know your state willget slashed after some amount of time or you can respond to it and you canrespond to it and say: Oh well, I actually I checked my sources, my pricehorces again, and I know I stand by this message that I that I put out andnow te the challenger basically has to M, put up their stick. So now it say both o both of you havehave committed versus. If you get challenged and Coryyou you go back andlike Oh, you know, maybe theprice source, I was using the API screwed upand it gave me Abad price. Actually, what I meant to say is this is theright price right. Then the the challenge has been responded to and,and everything is fine M nowthere there is. You can kind of putreputation to plan here too white. That's when I was O ar, especially ifyou have, I guess a contingent upon this. This isthe difficulty of reputation systems. Is it? Is it a anonymous workal systemor is it a federated orkal system where you actually have like a CET number ofpeople who are capable of being orcles, and then they do the network, and thatmakes it a lot easier in terms of doing reputation but clos, actually both Oso.We, we kind of differentiate this by by two terms. They call them dark oricalesand we call them white. Marcals m dark oracles are individuals and it'simperative that they remain anons like because, if Youare an individual youcan be targeted, can buil blackmail, you can be coverced Um it it's justmuch better if, if you're anonymous, and also that means that the oracles ismuch more difficult for them to coordinate and collude among each otherUFOR light oracles. These are public facing oracles and these are not usually individuals or usuallyorganizations like institutions. So, for example, you could have Um compon be running n Orul, you couldhave zrolex runanory couldhave, say a Clin base, runmor right and and these these institutionsright. They they have a lot of users right.They have a lot of credibility if they were to act maliciously. You know thereis a legal entity that you can sue right. They're, they're e incenv, theDing theory dynamics like play out that they can actually be be public facingrihts, actually better for them to be public facing because of thisreputation that they have a sake. And so another thing you can kind ofplay around others is remember. We talked about like a fifty one percentattack. You know being the the thing that breaks the canels back. Well, Imean if you can start waiting these things too. I co can say I wan to waitlight oracles more than dark orples by some wreaming right her. You can breakit down to be individually and say this Oracle has been. You know around forfour years and Thaes always been o know. Ninety nine point, nine nine percent oftime and belike. You know. I want to trust this way, a little more than theoricl that just got out of six months ago that you Ko seems to be runningwell, but you know who knows and so somaybe we can move on t to somethingelse. I don't. I don't want to take up the whole time talking about Aricles, El Okay, so aracles are pretty much. So what are the categories of use casesfor the oracles right now? Likein your system, literally just you have priceidentifiers. You have auctions, I guess would all beorcalized like you wouldn't want to run that directly on chain. Would you like,I think, mea, like last epicidy, mentioned that they're on chain, butlike? Is there a possibility for having some truth mechanisms that exist,forsoof tes, Onchan calculations, which might save some transaction fees thatUm in the future? You might want to...

...velop or obsolutly. Everything is onChan by design and thus to make it decentralized to the point where evenif make her as an organization were to disappear, the system would completelywork the same way that it works right now, so that, when we're designingsomething, that's that's the most important piece. The second mostimportant piece, then, is okay e. The gas optimization. Have you structurethis Likt, so the the amount of value leached by by feesFY is minimized. What we use the oracles for the onlything we use it for is to know when a loan can be liquiated. That is, that is the only piece: okay,okay and there's really no cheap way of doing that on chain. I would take itbecause first off you're trying to go with actual time frames like, and youcan't guarantee that or like. What's what's the reasoning behind needingthat off chain m the having the ORCL stuff work offTan right now, yeah the liquination side of things outside information?That's the basic ideas like it in your Worko rerquires, outside informationand because you're pecking to a dollar M. that's whenever you end up peggingtoo you're going to need some type of reporting of that of that thing, andthat can't be done with them. Okay, so that's part of liquidation! ThinkIGANIT! Okay. So when I was thinking with a Natho, I was tinking the actualact F of like calling liquidation on on these things is l Ke. You can justsubmit h the truth, value too the block chain, and then that has an effect onthe entire spart contractecosystem. That's what I was kind of like thinking.Is You actually individually recall liquidation, Ho you're, not doing that?It's just submitting the vall. We don't call the liquidation right. We justsupply the price value. So when someone else like a thorough party reweber, wewere talking about this keeper. This, like self interested third party actorM, they're the ones that are looking forwhich loans can be literated. They write, trice, finally drop low enoughto liquidate it. Now they push theur transaction saying. I want a liquidatethat one Igot Yo and for me that was kindof like th wot's o wait a minutethey wan. They want to limiate that one. I got ya: okay, Um and that communication is wait a minute.So actually now I'm confused. So they saythey want to liquiate that one t the the the the maker holders he ecorrectors is not themakeholdes anyone. So the keeper is just pot that anyone can run. You canrun added, Porik and runnit, and the reason why someone would run aliquidation keeper is A. Let is because you know you get to be the first personto you get to guarantee that you are the one that buy AC Latt riht. So Iwant to liquidate that lone, because the prics of you has fallen far enoughthat it's undercollateralized now and I want to buy the e. You know a threepercent discount. That is, that is, and you can profit of about three percentdiscout by selling that EF on Udaslap by selling that en kiber or ou knowwhatever desentializ e change you want, so you've basically tried to find a wayto get just anyone to jusamatically watch for the types of things that needto be called on Chan and you paint them out by giving him a premium on buyingit. You you leave people profit opportunities to make them do thingsthat are useful for the system, coca, so h, okay, so the the bank opponent, I guessof maker, is the Sart contracts system that is in chain and then the oraclesystem. What else are we missing? Is there anything aside from it that weshould be talking about? I I mean I know that sense to reductreduction. I noticed them yea that', that just a two Majircompons, like literally that's kind of the point of what I'm trying to makehere, is it from an architectural standpoint to develop a large scalefinancial transaction system. If we get the tooling down and we gave theprocesses down and we get the best practices down, building something like this is a lotsimpler than building visa right and and it's a lot simpler, thebuilding, a bank offrustructure, and so I didn't mean to say that, as in likeyou didn't put an amazing work, although I could sound like that, whatI was actually saying is: This is what we have, and this is all it takes todevelop something and the only reason that we can do thisis because of this concept of trust. This dcentralized trust mechanism,which is the black chain, which is the foundation for the entire. You knowthing that you're building, so I J St. I just wanted to point that out. Ithought that was interesting, that you have this oracle system, which isactually kind of Um. You know an ecosystem O of Federated Truth, andthen you have the batching, which is the absolute truth, and these thisautomated logic, which obeys a...

...predefine set of rules and people, caninteract with and Ayaiyadya, but the problem that people keep h runninginto. And this is Cori's area of expertise. I'm sure he's going to havea ton of questions in this area is the matter of security. So, as far as the smart contractsecurity goes, how did you verify that these things operate as as expected inas many circumstances as you can predict? Okay, so youregraully rightsecurity is really he the most important thing, um riht. We have abouttwo percent of the entire terium supply locked up in our smart contract. Igtthat I wa's just above two million eter, which is you can think of that is like a prettysignificant systemic risk right. So how? How do we protect that? So we have been working really closelylike most of the top oudic firms in the space. So trail of bits is someone that we workextremely closely with and they're, not just a you know, one of the top or F,not DTOP CRIPTOA, Siva security, firm Er, actually like one of the top ciprersecurity fromperior in the world. We've also like, I think it total hadlike five or six audits. So the white hat ackergroup thes a glorious H, anonymous individuals, bame audited thesystem as well, but I personally I don't think that'senough, and so what we've done with multicollateral die is we've taken thenext step, an we've done something that no one's done before and so we'veactually formally verifie all o the multicollateral dye contracts, everysingle piece Um and you N, I'm sure, use R. You know superknowledgeble knowwhat that means, but for the couple who got wat, whwhat formal merificationmeans is that you can mathematically prove you can like pasicallyoltobrakely prove that the system can never do this. It can never do that.You know given this. This can never happen. So, for example, you could saythe system you know should never be able to prince more die than the SOM ofthe debth feelings of of all the collateral types. You knowthe sist, the user should never be able to MIT more die than their collateralis worth Um you, no one should ever be able towithdraw die, except out of this one function where, when you're, payingthat you're alone you get to unlock your dit, you should never be able towithdraw more. You know than you put in it's literally just say by you startvery, very simple and filled like these little primitive truths, and then youcan start using the like Ligo blocks and stacking these truce on top of eachother, to prove very, very kind of complex relationships. No, so oneawesome, I'm happy that that's the role that you win I'll have some questionson Ho, how you like what what's offer you through that and did it and whichYo made a a very significant point about that as that, particularly in etherium, you can onlyform you formerly verify the truths that you put into the system in check we're never going to get a system.That's basically like all possible scenarios. R R are set within thecontext of the EVM right, and so the quality of performification isbasically at the limit of the quality of therules you put in Tho Chek, Anon Owas, who who who did that? What did you uselike Kvm? Did you use Manticor? What system do you use to do this formalverfication eabasty is both of those. So kekn is basically, we use theKFRAMEWORK to to C pwrite our opprufs, and this is actually some of the samekind of us, a lot of the same tooling about trail, obituses, internally,Simeson men to Cororight, menticor being one of them as well, counoo likepuzzing and stuff. So you know, we've had I think at thispoint. We've had like two or three rounds of of autis Wi trail of bits,and the last one hope I'm aloned to say this publicly. But the last one cameback, and you know these things are usually like twenty pages thick rightand they're. Like you know, they list like. Oh here, the high severity issues,the medium severity issues near the low severity and by this point, we'dalready formally verified them when they just came back likelok like Um,we're really struggling to write anything. He theracourt was like threepages long. That's IT'S 'S! It's almost...

...like scary. He guesot AC like that. Tobe honest, IU'just like okay, maybe it's so complicated that even auditorsare having trouble with it, but like it's definitely one of those situationswhere, like good job on the engineering hipeck, was good wer having troublefinding issues that discusseth you because it was done properly, especially when you do it multiplerounds. If you want to have a comparison for what one of thesereports looks like when it's not good, um go to the trail at bits, get hub andyou can hate to be a moan person, call them out, but look at the audit. Theydid for basis. You know previously: Calld Bascoi, an Ao have a rebo called,not so smart contracts within within their good hub. That is quality amountof like good things that will come out in thereport. Yeah Uh. So that's that's rertaily awesome, I guess p Tha exsituation of t is you've audited, allth, all the things that you're goingto be doing for Modi plaerill die and things are rolling out. The nextquestion, like the next part of that, is one: How are you going to monitorthese things so that Um they're operating the way they should oncethey're deployed and to say something changes in the Upgrad Patk of a theme?What is the upgrade plan for these contracts? Th? Have you have youhaveyou thought about those? So the MMKR governance has the ability to Um basically rerdepoy the systemright they can. The system has ownership over thedietoken or BMPOR token ripe, so they can mince and and destroy them, and if now, I'm carefulders want toupbrade the system. I E tey can do a governent smoke and there's basicallythe they give othe new system gets deployed and they give ownership ofthose tokens like to that new system. I thin ie ownership of the governing smot,make the governance modrel control that that new system, so there's a veryclear H, pastyer for or four upgrade Abilitie so say you know, two point O is: is starting to to be built out. Lik they can, theycould have a new system or they could have a system in parel Um. Aninteresting point here is actually Um. When multicollateral die comes out. Thecurrent die, which we kind of Hav Rechristan single claeral. I thatsystem will run in parallel for about four to six months. Those two just to give people time to migrateover ind transition O work in their own time when they feel comfortable. I you know when they want to when theythink market conditions are favorable for them to pay, pay back and closetheir positions. We definitely don't want to be the arbuters of saying, like Hey, youknow, force libration now, that's that's not how this thing works like we,we deploy it and we give the community the option of using the new system andwe give them ample avenues to transition over. So if you want O sk,if you have a CDP open right now and you want it to transition that CDDOMOLTIC collateral die, we'll have a mechanism to do that. If you havesingle collateral dying, you want Ta upperated to multicilateral Di we'll,have avenues of doing that Um. So you know we, for example, we talkedabout the oracles earlier, you know all of dfai is using makers oracles rightnow, as as the price source for EUSD. You know we don't want to screw thoseguys Overan, we, you know they have to plan from an operatiouspoint of view how they're going to to migrate to to the new Oracles D, andthey need time to do that, and we understand that Li we're not trying tohurt them one here. So we kind of we understand that all of these systemsare Ar interlapes, which is great, but the weakness of composability is right.That there is a ther are centralized points pillure andyou need to behave responsibly when you are at that basilyr infrastructure andproviding it for the entireecosystem Mam. That's a lot so yeah I mean like I, I'm I'm looking through your doc as you'retalking by the way Um I some of this stuff. I I G I'm actually looking forsmart contracts, so I could look over them and see what design principleslike how your actually building them and stuff like that. I On't see this.You know formal verification, vethtology that you were talking about.You have a very large Repo Thousi. Those going through a lot lot of stuffis nock on work right now, VMC COTAS N is n, Dssdmakerelo, okay, ess a highstability system. THAT'S THE MOIK CLANERALD! I could okand you'll findthat the contracts ar not that big, like goot we've, made a lot of effortsto really hair them down and make things as simple as as they possiblycan be.

Gotcha, okay, Um, and that is that is good for amultitude or reasons. It also means that people could just sdrow up theirnversion of us and just play with your model and have compatible versions ofmaker just running out there if they really wanted to. Although I wouldn'tsee a huge need for that, if this is working Um, okay, so I the real the question I wasabout to ask in before I I realize that I'm curious about didags and how how you foresee peoplebuilding desetize applications on top of this Um- and you know some of thesome of the design pricols about on that. I understand that you are theback end guy, but I'm pretty sure to test some of that. You have to also dosome front ind work too, and so I'm kind of curious. You know what is whatis Your v? What is the vision with dijs and are you guys expecting e to maintain the point ofventory forpeople interacting with your stuff? Or do you see people building alternativesto this? So so both right? So now we we want tohave kind of a FIBRAT necosystem built up around maker and around Di and that kind of starts with were knowingwhere we want to be positioned and leaving everything else to kind ofeveryone else. So we want to be on the base layer right where we just generatedie and get dyein circulation to make time useful m. We don't want to, likeyou know, soak up all of the Um like the opportunities that you canbuild on top of dye, because it's much much stronger when, when it's a platform when it's anvibrant ecosystem, so we want to leave those little pockets of value there forfor people to do so. What what we found already is that Thereis, a pretty bigEGO system building on top of maker and most of them, are using gidacs h thatyou mentioned earlier. So, for example, there has been all kinds of likealternative froms that people have a people, it teploy thers, othersinstadab theres their sen wire ar not noinwire. Why? Ithink, is it sable wire right, Omar Yeah? It looks awesome actually from aconceptual standpoint. I don't know if it's like functionally yet or workingbut yeah. It's reveral payments, uas Ou, the SISIP Nables, one of the thingsthat kind of bothers a lot of people about the SCRIPTIES UFIC TAT, there'sno way to actually lake poversaf payment. O went wrong, Um, which youknow some people see a avenge but a certif situations that might not be,and one of the coolest things I've seen. Actually it s something called BakerScan, it's mafirs, eager ether, Skan well lot for all things maker, wanother really cool. One is maker DOT tools, so n Kr got tools, and you canliterally see like can look on. NCDP can see how muchcolatoal has you can see how much deada has you conceive entire history ofactions while on this tate in time this person locked up SOM eve and then theyborrow this much die and then, on this day they pay some back. Oh, this isreally pretty really really cool yeah. Just the thing is like in blotching. Wekind of take that for granted that there's these cool things, but take astep back for a second and think of maker, like the maker Conosystem as abank. This amount of transparency does notexist in the traditional banking world if you Wonto Bank of America down thestreet and you're like hey, I'm thinking about taking out alone. Butplease let me look at your entire loan book. First, I want to see every loanyou've expended along no every individual you've extended it to oo theduration of the Lon intere of alone, like before I make my decision thatit's like safe for me to take on alone, with you they're time to get lost yoit. It's the amount of transparency that wehave in this system like right now it seems very opaque, ofto regulators- andyou know they're they're, understandably fearful, because theydon't understand it yet, but once they e realized how much more transparentthis type of system is than the traditional banking sector. I thinkthey're going to fall in love with it, the most usually regulatable thingthey'v ever seen at hat. You can always build kin. Thr this con concept out asmuch as I possibly can, but you could build centralized services or even nontransparent services on top of transparent services. o Can't do theopposite. MHM! You can go from you c you could you can kgo from desentializeto sentralize, and what's Nice about that, is you still have the basic onlike e reliability, layer underneath the Gizzy, TRANSFANCI and rebuilding a FI? The financial world ontop of this is definitely doable. One of my my opinions, like e inevitable,but that doesn't hurt me Amit the base layer in a lot of ways in factenboldens in and throws a lot of...

...nusecases into it because you h've amassive funnel and to the base layer, um and but you've kind of built. If yousang l e kind of would ep back from Mesterday as you built a centralizedcredit system in a lot of ways, wha has been noat, Kindof thrors me o full of it.'CAUSE, like I think, Thi is this credit system. I guess you're, not L E,Yes, you're putting up collateral but you're not really like. That's notcredit, like credit is hey. I am known to be pretty good, so they're going togive me free money, just 'cause of my reputation. This is like you're puttingout CLADRO, there's real risk involved in you being a bad actor. It's not likeyou know, like yeah theother, with t e credit score like Youd, be a bad actor.W T what happens they might be able to garnish wages they might not andthey'll be able to part your credit score. He can't do that Crni junk again,but the risk is all on the person giving the money the money's not beinggiven to you by by a third party. It's not e. This is not the same thing ascredit if you is closer to Darma, but I don't even see an Actitarma Ase Taroskin of this puro per system. Peard appear like in fact that might be agood distinction to make here the Darma Protocol versus what you guysare doing. It actually seems like I almost work well together, rather thanbeing computing, thingwhich t originally kind of thought. So maybethat would help with that distinction that I'm trying to make here. Oh I meanwe. We have a great relationship with with Darman and all the the secondarymening proticles M. actually they I I just I kn W. I know you hask odifferent Pessumie Wele. I Os on the stoke quit all of these secondaryMoneyng photocals, actually haehelp US statilize dye because effectively, if we offer youknow some rate and uh, you know someone else has a moreattractive. Ratelit they'll just go over there and borrow die from bum instead ofborrowing Dye from us and that actually helps reinforce, reinforce the pay BSO.When the thing is, when we move rates, they pretty much have to move rates aswell, though it's it's a symbiotic type of relationship, because any dye that'sbeing leapt out at dormat. Someone is paying. You know the whatever ourstability fee is kon that die. You know every second, so you, even though it's not that exactindividual who is repaying that from a matro level. Somebody is andthat all actually tends O to equilbrate out yeah. So that's awesome. Yo builtliterally Nico Sistom a platform that people can play with nicely and there'sreally no competitive advantage to doing anything wrong. Ori, just don'tnot seeing like the more questions I have, the more they just seem like yeah.Why would anybody do that? I mean its the best answer that e or you know itwould just break the system orthe the would just lose money or it d. Itwouldn't help anything. So I think that's interesting Um but UH. You know, there's always socialattacks outside and reasonings beyond, like if somebody on Attac a theoram.The fact that you hold two percent of that would be a pretty major attact ifthey found some way like gaming, the system to attack that but think mostpeople, don't. I don't really see somebody having that kind of moneylaying around to do that kind of joke. I think a better way to May yeah. Therecould be problems, but we're we're relatively naive people about it. Whydon't we ask the back ind guy like what's difficult like wh? Where do yousee potential issues in the future? Where do I see potential issues in thefuture? Oh boy, um or like onmaybe, starting off with, like, what's reallyreally hard to get right from an engineering perspective, so that, likeyou, have this quality mechanism design thisequillypraand? How do you know building it that that's what you're going to getyeah wel talks about Makerman? So I think I think that a flaw that we have withtecurrents die that is released rigt now, is that the only Leber we have toreally stabilize the peg on a macro level. Wiht was this our ability to m intodisinsentimize people to create die bit by raising the interest rate by orincynebizing them to create Duye by lowering the inteustry, so that is alever on a die supply. What we do not have Right now is a lover on die, Damitand so the way that we're addressing this andWoth I cllateral dies that we're going to adk something called the DI savingsrate, and it's effectively are this lever ondemand, and so what what the disaving Forat is?This just like how you can go to you know like a local bank, and you can putsome dollars in esitings at count. Arn...

...some interest, it's gon to work thesame way, so you can lock up nor die in a smart contract and for a second itwill. It will basically accumulate interest and so th, where this interest is coming from, isit's actually coming from the fees that people are paying for the luns, it sosay so say right now we have nineteen and a half percent interestwhen someone tase on long. Indeed, that's pretty high. I I think um well,Okr yeah well sure, but it's pretty high.But what if you could instead say well? Why don't we like give people six percent interest annually? Just forholding do riht now now, there's going to be an increased demand for holdingdie, so this equilibrium equation has shifted right because there's nowincreased demand for holding die and now the system can actually with stayinm increase the man for loverge as well for her creating your supply, becausethe demand equation has increased. So we can actually use the dyesainingsrate, then to lower the interest rate that we're charging borrowers T, and sowe can bring that nineteen and a half percent say you know from you, know:INEHTEEN and a half percent interest grate and zero to the dyeholders andbring it down to say ten percent interest, rateom borrowers and sixpercent to dietholders and so effectively the TI saving srates keptpunded from from that stabilityf right. And so you can it's uffectively o win to win for, foreverybody right I mean and caourholders don't make as much money, but it allowsthe system to scale more. So even in the long term, medicarholders can canrecreit those costs through scare but or dyeholders and poborrowers worborrowers. They yellower race and for dyeholders right they get to earninterest, which is great, and I think the impact of that is is going to befelt befelt kind of ecosystem wide whenpeople realize what it means that you can earn six percent interest on di orfour percent or you o whatever it ends up Beng because think of all of thesewallets right now that don't have a business mall. Well, if all they do isjust you put their users deposits and lock it up in this interest, earning umaccount and they can wrightan. They can. You know, take it out at any time rightnow, wall, let's have a business ball. Think of exchanges that haven't listeddiet changes ore. You know, volume is overall down from where we bore attwenty. Seventeen movel exchanges are trying to find more avides for moreremaant and that's why they're doing this whole ione thing now, becausethey've had to diversify and find new areas for remedue. Well, what? If allof the die that their uses, te causin on their system can be earning them?You know four or five, six percent, any! That's another income source, so nowexchanges are incentivize to list Tye um effectively any application. That is,you know, holding dye in some way now has an extray income stre. How do youuh? How do you see people adopting this? Doyou feel like it's going to be institutions and applications thatbuild on top of this system? Or do you think you think dusers are going to lKe directly interact with this? I I think users will directly interactwith it, but it has to be in collaboration with the the ecosystem right. So I don't see the end. The dieuser in five years from now really interacting with, like you know themaker fron end or anything like that. I see it as like someone built a map inArgentina or something and they're using die in their back end. The personprobably doesn't even know they're using block chain using crypto usingdye they're, just like Oh, I have money and they can go and they're AP. Youknow ir saying: Hey we're going to give you three percent interest or somethinglike that, and the APP is making money because they're pocketing thedifference right. I think that the dye savings rate kind of incentivizes thiswhole ecosystem of participants to go out and kind of be be missionaries forfor the use of Dy and h. It doesn't have to be hey. Here's thiscool thing dye hose die. It can learally, be abstracted away to thepoint where you don't need to know you're using watching you n now you'reneeing SCRIPTU, one really interesting newscase, I'msuper excited about is kind of tocanized securities, so we're workingwith a partner called tradeshift and they're one of the largest trade fiancskind of companies in the world and we're we're doing a pilot project withthem for tokenizing invoices. I said I...

...was Kinda Kindo get to. I guesssomething I wouldn't know yeah like tokenizing,like that's, basically an tft, my other so yet, and it has to have a valuation.It's like how do I? How do I take c? How do I take die out on my cryptokitty?Is Basically the same problem ylike? I want to hear all about this. Go Il getso in in the trade finance world. Right so say you have Walmart and you havesome small kind of toys. Manufacturen. It's you know Christmas time is comingup and Walmart wants to make a big order, and you know the Christmas toocemanufacture all right. They have sobe cash, the anufacture toice. They shook'em the Walmart and walk they issued Walmart like an influce right and say,like Hey, okay, you know you owe us two hundred thousand dollars. Walmartdoesn't pay that emboce immediately. They you know, they'll, usually pay it.Ninety days from the day that it was issue- and this is aproblem- this is the problem because supplycompanies are very cashful odependent businesses right. So this toy factor yright. You know- maybe it can't handle any large orders, ah for a while,because it doesn't have enough capital. So what they end up having to do a lotof the time is end up, selling their envoices or, you know, say seventy fivecents on the dollar. You know sometimes even like fifty cents on the DOLLR,depending how desperate they are Um, actually there's a pretty credatorystrategy that Walmart an amazons sometimes employ where theyintentionally don't pay their suppliers, because they know their suppliers aregoing to go bankrupt than won'l actually be able to sue them. WarAmazon will be able to t, then buy about a supplier and bankruptcy foreven cheaper, it's pretty creditory, so Um, there's aalternative to this is where you effectively borrow against your envoice.So right, so your invoys rid have some kind of credit rating. So Walmart andAnazon are, you know very at good credit, so they're good for paying outtheir envoices, and so banks are willing to extendloans using these envoices as Cllat. The onlyproblem is that the banks won't deal with you unless you're doing like tenmillion D, twenty million, fifty million sufts Um because they're justnot worth it to them, so there's a whole, the most and most slikemanufacturers. insuppliers are much more smollen that so what we think wecan do is we can have trat trade shift. Is theone that already does the trade find inself? So they already know what thecredit rating is of all amial risk is all these different envoices what theycan do if they can tocanize the stuff, they can put it as CDP, they can draw adie against it and they can convert that Diein a dollars and they can wirethose dollars to n that supply compor and what you've effectively done is thesupply company doesn't need to know anything about Blochan. They don't evenknow anything about Tokanization or die or anything th y. They don't even knowthey're using it. They just know that when they go to Tradeshif, if they likesign over their envoice, they get dollars wire to their account withintwenty four hours. Okay, Oh God that is, I ere going to Grt. It amazing and I'll.Tell you why I come from a different perspective. One of the main problemswhen it comes to anything dealing with independent contracting is exactly whatyou mentione just in a different context. So it's suchus about suppliersis about anybody dealing with any organization which has a sixty day orninety day or even six month, sort of cycle for paying out your particularcontract type with contract. You are dependent on that CCASHLO. Yougenuinely are like you like. If you want to be a small contractor today,you have to have at least three months worth of. I can live off of this inyour pocket right away. Otherwise you are putting yourself an extremriskecause of the likelihood that you're going to get paid within ninety days isslim to none. Your Proba name going a e Paii after that, because you havsactually do the work first before the envoice is even considered valid beforeyou eve and get paid. Okay, so like the buried entry into doing justindependent work and independent labor and independent, consulting andindependent. Anything et is tremendous, especially for young people, people whocome from different economic situations, people coming into the country that isnot from a privilege of a country, so people for Indiato here would have amore difficult time. A lot of these, like problems, are really easily solvedif we just had a way of leanding against invoices, but as you sait, theywon't even look at your envoice for lending purposes as collateral unlessit is at least probably one to one point: five million minimum dependingon the back small trade trade tsove, gotten calglan excited he's gone y. Ifyou can, if you can not only not only...

...if you could take these invoices, ifyou can attach a credit reading to the envoices and if you could somehowbundle the envoices together, providing an ascentive model for collective bargaining, you havesomething pretty big therethere h. They have something pretty big there. Thatis a big big amazing feature that I've always wanted, andit's only possible because of maker, I'm I'm very so Oll totart I go on ranc too I foisha onas a ranter. Okay, we love it. T'so scary, though 'cause I, I guessit's not because it's not as scary as as we rebuild this financialinfrastructure, we keep building on top of keep building on Topit Kep boing. Ontop of T, I've stracked away to the point where the USERSDOS even knowthey're doing things um it's important to realize that the foundation is muchmore stable and reliable or at least dependent upon a rathifal market, thensomething that is not ore built on a house of cards nd. So I I worry a lotthat what we're doing in the bloching industry is rebuilding the financiallike a more efficient financial system, but also the fact that Ike, it may bemore obscure, complex and and because we're building so many layers on top Fit that complexiy grows and then just the same. Damn thing but also worse,have you have you like thought about this type of stuff and how the futuregrows, and we like rerebild the FAISHOR industry? What's keeping us from notdoing the same damn thing and why is it going to be better this time? I worry about it all the time. Um Right hate to beat the dead horse, but youknow two thousand and eight was H, was right. It was the result of dressing upa bunch of crap and I si wn what callen just sent Bo e market ot rebuild. Building thesethings up booking then band selling hem. If that's not done correctly, then wewe just do the same, damn thing so so I think you made an interesting pointearlier. Where Um you know, we, we kinda determined that, like no mikersuper super transparent right. So if we I, if we build on top of major, we justhave to make sure that the things were building on topof ar just astransparent and then he can can actually say. Okay, you know this comesfrom. This is connected to this. In this way, the sooner you if you built something,that's you know way too abstract on top of maker and must not transpar it in anof itsef. That's where you start to collect risk right. So the whole pointis that you collect risk as soon as something is to abstract, and so we allwe can do is i'sured that the baslayer is transparent wt. We can't controlwhen anyone bolds on top of it right, and I mean I would hope that you knowregulators would recognize risk or you know even better than userswould would recognize risk. But I'm I I worry a lot at the time that someAPP is going to come out, but that isn't you know calculating the riskright that isn't very transparent, and you know they have some viral growthand their users love them, and it's going to end battle. Decinnect Mabe,bat cone, two exactly infectonnecto like yeah, and that's that's that to meis actually an illustration of why these things are the amount of powerwe're giving people like removing the the the curtain and showing that thewizard is not this big floating head and that these these systems theressomething you can do, and you can't. But the problem is people, don't havethe wisdom to operate them and when they're so easily access you can getinto situations like like uh, like pogsis cames. You know somethieearlitschemes. You know, I think the biggest lie that the the bankers wereever ableto sell like the world's population. Onwas pay. This stuff is way toocomplicated. For you understand, let us Tay Care Yeah, but what I worry aboutis werbuilding systems. That actually are. I try explaining pickcoin throughe averag everyday person and then then think about h. How more complexmaker is as opposed to te on mm and then that's just a baselayer right.That's that' means tat a the technology side, so wh wh what he say that what Ihear when he says when Whennixos, that is, that managing your own finances istoo complexl. Let us do that for you, so so what one thing bof is peopledon't need to understand the technology, but they do need tounderstand the principles behind it, arresk in an eertale risk, so forZimble maker Yeather are you know some risks that are specific to thetechnology stack, but most of it is you trust. The economic model and theEconomic Bottl we have in Makeher is not something new.

It's actually something very oldcentral banks use monetary policy right, noow modifying interest rates and thelike as a way to you, know stabilizing and curvenplation all the time. This isreally just the block chain representation of that. This is notsomething new right. When a you know, H, hetch funds use basically insurancekind of derivative products. All the time to secure their positions. INMKR,like as a insurance mechanism, is not something new, but what we've just donehas adapted kind of existing models that work and just put them on chain ina more transparamitter, so ads gratenal- and you say it's the same- but at thesame time imagine getting these financial analysts who are up there. Astalking heads on Bloomberg, Gere up there of C NBC yoere up there on Foxbusiness, talking about how the market's moving and how thing imaginethem talking about Macodo and how macodol is positioniself and whether ornot it's going to raise the interest rates are lower and they're. Talkingabout it like it's some monolithic thing, ecause, that's all they know,and they don't understand it. There's a there's, a mechanism in there that thatthat's out of the control of any sort of decision making process and they and some of whom willunderstand it. They might use the microphone to manipulate the markets inone way or another, swaying the mass opinion in the tragedy of the Commons,but either way the story is still changed because it's not the same aslike. thesed is going to change the rate. You know the it's it's evt, it'sa matter of it's a matter of who has control the power, and it's just goingto be an interesting world. When I see the maker market being up, there spokenright next to dacity IMI'm, very much looking forward, OThai Bet Wa all right. We got a ve got a fewminutes left Um what else sucks about maker what else sucks about maker? Oh Man Um,I would say another risk we have is the MPR token is not superliquid rightnow. So I think that's something that weneed to work on so write. So when W NKR gets diluted to cover about that writethat mkr needs to be sold right. That's how youthats, how you get M ifthe markets for BYUM CR are veryliquid. Then you can see the price appreciate rapidly rather than slowlyso the market cap. So you kind of see this in Crypta right where you havecoins that are worth laketally like a billion dollars, but they only do liketwenty million dollars of actual volume, you'll pray after Youe Filron Wash Stra, and it'sprobably like a tenth of that. If you were to dump you know five milliondollars, you know coin onto something that only has a million ofreal liquidity right. You're going to appreciate the price extremin fastyou'll see that one billion dollar market cap you know token collapsed toeight hundred million, or you know, seven hundred and fifty million quitequickly, and that's something that we need to improve about Themaka Fokin.If it's going to be this robust insurance product- and I think the solution to that isreally to just publish more types of academic papers detailing how the maker system works because modelingthe value that the maker token should haveis I'm not I'm not going to say it's easy, but it's pretty it's prettyintuitive right. So every dye that's outstanding has some kind of fee thatis returning based off whatever clateral it was created with so right.So that's that's money coming in okay, so you know companies are valued basedoff like profit to earnings, right Um ou. No, how much? How much money etheyre bringing it well Yu Im Kris bringing in this amount of cash thisyear and you know the die. SUPPLI is growing. You know singingly at somegreat ex or on some kind of punction x, and so we can predict what you know.The castles will be three oars from now. Five years from now. You know we canpredict, like oe we're taking this much risk in terms of something badhappening and US having thatdand meeting to have some dilution. Okay. Sowhen Youll have some factor for mkr, has this probability of geting beneted?But what you find is that you quickly very quickly arrive a you know, anumbout a number of what MPR should be Bonda and as soon as you have that kindof clarity in the market of what an MPTYRshould be worth. Given the state of the system and given kind of the where thesystem is trending on going, there should be a lot more Bherer, somecellars who are willing to sell...

...slightly above that price and buyslightly blow tumtrse yeah, igr, thk, H, t the like of modeling and and data forpeople to look at. It definitely keeps that velocity downright. People are using the token and stuff like that. We're working on that other people areworkng on that and that's just that's also a growing field which is dependentupon the actual system being in place and working right can't fell bottlesabout data. A otways Yel rely Goo, we gept Faliatr models baarather thanclose on. You know something that a question of like yeah. What needs to befixed? What is what is your favorite thing that you've seen happen in theMAKO ECO system? That just blew your mind or ajs Ike was you know the emergence that you didn't expect orthat you were just super excited that you actually saw realize? What was whatwas your favorite moment? My m favor moment was when we lost dime Decembertwousnt ynd seventeen and it actually worked Tony Seventeen. You know eath is atlike eight hundred dollars a month later at rallighs to like youowfourteen hundred dollars, and then you have a year of just crashing crashingcrashing crashing barmarket Um. It was really the worst possible time youcould launch a a stable toitoken like die that you know it was dependent onether to back its vallen right and eather. Wod flocklay dropping dropping,dropping PROPI and in that entire time, and even up to today we have never everhad an underwaterloan not once, and that is that's because in ourparameters on how we, you know that minimum colateralization ratio of Eath,like yeah sure each heath drops twenty percent some days, but it doesn't dropfifty percent in an hour. It's not very likely to draw fiftypercent in one hour, and so that's what keeps the system solvent and that'skind of what gives me so much confidence twll. They testinit so tothe ananics of the system right how how how quickly you're able to move back toequilibrium dependent upon the plychanges of various things. Fourteenhundred dollars down ta eighty dollars, Apretty, like I mean, would that onlyimprove with you add more assess to the system. So, if you're backing bicin, is that,like basically hedging your bet off of the therium? Is that going to improvethe rebestness of the system? Or do you see what, of course, the more or assetsyou bring in the more stable the stable Clin? Becomes? I'm going to challenge that One r? If a thery flash crashes- okay, youat least have a reference price over here, onohr another, the coincident-that that's something somethings up etheorium and it's not too big me deal.You can then suddenly impleent measures, Ke the flash crash happened only on atheorum and that was a pretty impressive clash go. I me drucked downto wet eight cents from like who was it at the time like three hundred andthatthat didn't affect us and you war now Wy you ere up there for that.That's right! Wewe! We pull our like Oracle prices from a bunch of differentexchanges, and so each or each orcle itself, rispulling from say like five exchanges, and it takes the the volume weightedaverage price and it knows to filter out outlas when it's just one exchangethat just goes tits up. U, so we actually weren't affected by the flashcrash at all Holi O yeah- I don't know so. Why would you say you would argueagainst Ecory 'cause? I've had a lot of advanced courses and reaction dynatics,and this is probably something that models very very well to that, and it'sa subtle science and theres could be come cut, ane kind of like T it's asyou increase the colateoral. It becomes a L, larger and larger multivariantproblem. As with any multivariate problem, expencial incrusive complexity,as you increase the number of variables, an optimization of those sype ofproblems gets incredibly complex and sometimes non trival solikt like interms of like the dynamics and what can? What can pull that system out ofeqalibrium? So I think that'd be that'd, be kind oflike a arrea of research that I would love to see because the majority ofmodeling we do in token economics is usually ways for firms to do. Li e t o to makeappropriate decisions on collateral likew, where we're they're, puttingtheir money, basically making good quality, bys decisions, and things likethat M, but modelling these things, especially when things have poltilutilities, h with more complex theories that may beworthwhile like echology theory or ration dynamics. Ther may be moreappropriate. I'd, be kind AF curious to see like how thos play out I'm interested too. Ithink I think some of the things you've brought up actually bring to mine.Other questions, like are the fundamental assumptions were making onhouse supply and demand actually works...

...on a system like this sound in the longterm a enjoy the time they use like that old old model like intype, was apq Mv Wrightand, then the majority of the problems ormodeling Vilosophy, and so you have these like really odd ways that don'tquite fit on modeling these types of like old financial models. That, then,maybe make pecent approximations, but it may be out of the context, becausethe financial model just doesn't quite capture the complexity of the tokenitself right because at the end, like cryptal currencies are more general to transcend the idea ofold financial oofinential tools. When you use the tooling of the Olbertranscended thing, they're, never going to capture everything and thatcomplexity made mean, dress te consequences of like the thing ofpractice, and so we come up with better models or try different things. Then I'M N I'm not too sure of like howaccurate these things are. But that's that's part of the field and it's avery, very small, budting field. You need a lot of work and a lot ofresearch applat of these things, and it's just t at small amount of peopledoing it, and you know I feel like it's also one of those things that sometimesyou won't know until the bad shit happens, but I mean so faryou'vesustained through a beedle, a brutal beating, Rutnbetl Burna Yoc givey Sustaine through a beetle brooding um a brutal beating, and you know it'sbeen a rough year for markets and they're now, and the upswing and you'rewatching the other side of it. So you know I mean that gives nothing butconfidence to what you're building um I just that's all you got to say: Is YourContracts Hell? You know your contract sell your system held through a roughtime. I'm sure people are trying to come at you all the time. Ig Guarantee.There's people who want to figure out how to break you just for fun, not evenbecause they have st 'cause. That's Ngt, two percent of either locked up,definitely not doing it for fun o they might be doing it for fun. A like, likel like let's say, cu, just wanted to find a way to just lock up that moneylike that would just be because of DX. It's t's lie, you know, like I don'tsee any, maybe not! Maybe they wanto attack either itself but Kno. The point is that people arecoming at you: You're you're, standing up to the bullets and H, it's it'spanning out so far and you're building quite a hell of e Nico System aroundthis, and I I J st, very impressed with what I'm hearing here so yeah. I camein as a pure skeptic intentionally an I came out as he person who's H. Seventyfive percent there ecause. I always elieved that a littlea little bit Extri 'cause ie got more to learn and there's only so much youcan learn it two hours to Talki so yeah. No, I think this is really impressive.Stuff like this is extremely impressive, so cool we have toglad, I'm glad we gotyour seventy five percent of the way there. I Gatto leave that Roo man AlRight. Let's go! Ninety I'll go o the full nine whatever, but, like I ot, also kindof like leave myselflike you, don't leave yourself space like e's, not an endorsement. It's just betrying to figure out. What's going on, humor base o what you said and whatI've been reading and w t what ive been looking at, it's it seems cool and reasonable andlike it makes sense when you explain it to me the way you explained it to me'cause before coming into this. It didn't quite and there's just likethere's a lot of stuff going on here and it's like. I can't grock all this,and this makes a lot make it a lot better h. The problem is that Thereis,no clear entry point where you starts, and then you go out wit be to sa thedee. It's all IPRESIN TI thing, and it's connected to this thing. Af thisother thing, but we can't talk about the other thing. Yelet's talk aboutthis first and if we is try, we just trid to do it over the past two hours. Ily have the whole picture that you seehow things are interconnected and that's WHA ICORY was like Du. If you,if you haven't, listened to the previous episode, you got to listen toit before you do this, because I feel like just that that that explanation ofthe it just helped so I yeah I mean this-is your point of ventry how's that push us really hard pushes tell everyone.They should listen to these two episodes bewhere. They even talk to youall and Welle, we'll make it a big oo deal in terms of like getting call onthe rest of the ten percent. Where do people go to find out ware and to learnthe things that they maybe quite didn't get the first time when they was tothisor they need more clarity on certain things, where's the conversation wherethey learn more? Where do they find you? So I mean if you go to chat dot, MakeerDowt Com. We are very, very active on our chat.We have a supersuperactive community, Um Yokno. All of us are posting in thepublic channels like all day everyday. So you can ask al O Yor questions thereUm. We also have m a rebo on Githob in the macerdowrybook called Awesome, Dash Maker doubt...

...and it's pretty awesome. It is veryawesome. It is a list of like every single thing having to do with makerwith how it workd, with kind of guide withspects with Hafa Q. It has links toevery AMA. Every podcassro overdone has videos. It has liaxd to every platformthat trades die that uses die Um. It has a ton of different stuff, and it'sjust growing day by day by day I did awesome tats a lot. We reallyappreciate you take an extra hour. T expand US out because there's justthere's just so much here and UH. I feel a lot better about myunderstanding, ofbout things work and I also feel o o Bout Lik. Twenty peoplein the I direction would thehv questions for me. IWIT TSUPERCOL.

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