Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 56 · 2 years ago

Hashing It Out #56 - Mattereum - Vinay Gupta

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

This episode, Corey brings on Vinay Gupta from the Mattereum project.

This was spawned from a tweet thread from Vinay about people and their stuff that excited Corey, and the following conversation does not dissapoint. Today, we dive into the fundamentals about the transaction costs associated with the lifecycle management of physical goods. What does that mean? Why do you care about your stuff, and why do you hold onto it? Enjoy!

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Now, entering Ad Cind CCASTRET work welcome to hashing it out potgasped forRetouk to the ATTECH intovators, behind blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the wees figure at hy and how peoplebuild this technology, the problems they face along the way I'm listeningand learn from the best in the business. You can join our recks lookin back everybody to hash it out,as always on your host doctor corry, petty Callin, is still in the processof moving his life elsewhere across the United States, so he's not joining ustoday. Um I'm really excited about this episode.It started from a tweet storm that I read that I really really reallyenjoyed based on o inside. It gave me as to some relationships. I've never reallythought about. Before and today we have VENEGUTA CEO AF paterium, coming on tothe author of this tweetstorm, cutting on to tells o a little prebout thisconcept and where it leadts to and what hat kind F, what kind of impact it hason Um. All of the things we are all trying to work on on the Internet and NSociety and so forth. So Han a cecome to the show. Aren't you it's a quick introduction asto kind of who you are what you do Hav you got here, tcetera sure good to behere, and so my kmain role with Bokcan base was. I was the project manager forthe ATHURIAN launch, but my background ecripto Gos into thenineteen ninetyes and probably wrote my first cripographic application inninety seven te help some other peopleas par Otam and then spend amquite helbing paid in eaglld in Ninete Ninteh. So it was my first Sgodurdigital casha's concept and then after nine eleven I left ack and I headedinto energy policy, and I spent fourteen years kof bouncing aroundbetween energy polsy defense, think Tanx and sutainable witout majoritiestrying to find some comprehensive way of getting a grip on global poverty andsome of the enpironmental stuff that goes on around it. Then Atherian came along and hadn'theard people talk about smart contracts in a real way. For years it was like itwas the high water mark of the first round of the CIPRER punk revolution,that was, that was Yo k, ow the discussion that spar contract was kindof the the crest of that wave, and then everything went dead for a long timeafter nine eleven, and then I heard people talking about it'Smar contracthave E. I that's t my ship, I'm getting on that one and on'here we are and Whati'm doing. Right now is ArunaCompany called Matirium, which is basically doing digital identity work,but for physical objects, and there are a whole bunch of complexreasons why? I think we need that, but it all comes down to figuring out howto manage scarceirty globally in a way which is more efficient than thecurrent capital is remarkable. That' There's a lot to move in thereand I I think that's it's a concept that I think everyone has a idea or understands that ti like in bloncanworld that something we're moving towards and something that's veryimportant. But I think, there's a maybe a lack of insiht or framework tounderstand why that's important M and this this sweet starm that you youstarted out with, gave me a little bit of that. I think,or at least the words H to put towards the mental framework I already had inmy head, and I start you did something ofn. It was July twentieth started itout I'll. Just read the first one UM I've been PA from I've, been bitingdown very, very hard on the semantics of the relationship between people andtheir stuff for more than ten years. It goes back to Brazils, Ruzinis maps totor and the questions about how things relate to each other raptark chargersolar panel I've been driving and for Mary, going from a really longdiscussion on stuff people and their stuff andimportant part of that was like this. This separation that you or this Ahamoment that you had, which was Um, you had always grown up, basmast hustorm,combined or not separated the differences between tools and skills. That's something you kind of puttogether bess on your upbringing, and then you finally came to therealization that those two things are fundamentally separate for most people.You talk about that exactly so I come from a fundamantally, Handy,family Ri. On my mother's side m. She was a nurse. Her father was acarpenter and her mother was a weaver,...

...so there were people that knew how to makethings with their hands, and I grew up in a house full of tools and so that Suh changes our opinions on like how things work right. I grew upin a household for learning. To use tools was a regular part of daily life, Tas astatic wd it with a chisel. Thisis a soul. This is a darning needle. It was very kind o tool, rich environmentM andit. Was it o completely natural to me to think of s basic humanativity, oer learning howuse a toal acquiring a tool d than using the tool as being a naturalactivity that you do like reading a book right? I don't to do this thing. Gofind the thing that helps me. Do it get the think done? You know it's Li! Oh!Well Y! U I guess this is going to require a skillsal right right. Youknow which Skilli how you learn, how O use it. You do a few task cot, you knowwrite my cuttinboard, so VI approach was soaked very deep intomy DNA and one of them Nwarins I get older- is it's very easy to make reallyprofound and subten mistakes by thinking that other people feel or seethe world in the same way that you do M or if you're inside of a particularprofessional environment, you get very used to people that see and think theworld in that sort of way, then you come across people that arelooking at in a completely different way and everything you know kind ofchanges very suddenly right. You know, you think you you think you're, likeyou're in a medical environment and you'R deal with a Loll e doctors.They've got terrible sense of Homoun O run death and, if you Talla you from thatenvironment in you know, roomful of people that are fower arrangers youarein dead trouble, they don't have. They don't have the kind of they've never had to deal wifh thesituations to build that up as a necessity so t they think you're morebetter, have a heaven issue: Nd and there'r filter differently,because how people don't have that relationship, theath, ton', Wen mea, so wine, O realized, was that to metools and skills were the same thing, because you could always have the tools,the skill to the Jul I werras. I can pick a UP IN LERN. I use it off. We goR and th the kind. The N here here. I've G explain a lettle bit more. Thisis another robbit home, so the simple, the rasilient mopping system there.It's something that I designed when I was deing a whole bunch of worst catescenario, planning work for government and it was a new way of thinking abouthow to understand the physical Torean on which things like earthquakes playAP and in that model. What you're reallylooking for is a network of connected bureaucracies at work together tooperate your society, the Power Company talks to the watercompany ECHES, Apflyigon B, Energy Toroun, the pumps tho turn into topwater, the a hospital also as an agreement with the eltrisiy provider,backup Generaat or which runs a diesel if they fail over nothey're doing withthe diesel supplier. So what you have in a disaster is a breakdown in thenetwork of bureaucracies that operates your world and for years, I'd been questing for amuch war res lower level. Higher resolution mop for how physical objectsinterract with each other and parallel to those bureaucracies you had you hadkind of a aamalgum of of physical objects andrebuilding relationships among them. That te build up to what we see fromlike a social perspective, exactly right- and this was all in mind- fortrying to keep systems running in the event that you've got a sudden, rapid,distruct destruption. So things begin to go seriously wrong awhole bunch of people and no throw into the front line to handle you'r.thinking like post earthquake, stuff Ra in Hati. They got the cellphonenetworks bakon in less than seventy two hours enracllection. Is it mighte benunderforty eight and that hoppened, because the southpones were distributedIntrastructorin, therefore extremely resilient. All they did was they took adiesel generator to the Southphond, Moss stewed, the Mosbo up, anternf, thegenerator OL and in moves cases the equipment work. It was. It was an Amazingd Rasiliansystem, and so it was kind of a. It was a realization, this isthe. So this is this is the the needle in the HA. So if you comeacross the buying technology right Ou k, you have a microphone, you pug it into:U S, Bepore! It just works right, Ihave, a micophone. I plug it into USB adoctor that will colnect it to USPC...

...device and it doesn't work. I don't know why I'm never going to beable to eat Bagta as pugain at didn't Harper, so that experience, there's no mediatingbureaucracy around the USPPORT IIF. It doesn't work. There's nobody tocall. There may be a manufacturer, but the object ad, essentially directlyinterfacing each other roter being tied together by a Cano bureaucracy in aagreement. anterranger there's no skill attarched to theobject other than me. So if I'm in a hospital an I'm, a surgeon, the honesttheseologist and his technicians are responsible for makinture that patientstays under it says otogenaed Um and I as a surgeon, I'm never goingto be doing the woolovl interfacing with the oxygen supplier to make surethe valves that they fit fit the equipment that we've got. You see whatI'm sayingand. What I've been searching for for years was: How do I get a litlelevel interface if ilallow me to build a model of the world o stuff so that Icould get thi up to directly connect together right? I had inmwas almostlike a Materac Ompiwer, where you could get type errors when things correctlyinterface with each other, a beg at so I've got. I've got table toovequipment and I basically se o the Marcro compove o right. Can I plub thisarm into that microphone into those speakers Ino that power socket withthis? The cables are in this cable back and I want the computer to look at thatand say yes, and here tell you wire up, and I have been chasing. That vision ofthis is how it all work. You know, often on for more than ten years I keptthinking, there's not be a way of solving. This has gotto be woson. Thedobuous Hos, but familys realized this, even if there is a way of solving itfrom most humad beings that Soeqrev of machine coad, programming, MHM, RTTHEOher, face that they won't is there won't be a vtect just come and make itwork work. They have no interest in the tools themselves. Their interest is inthe activity they want to do and they want a human being to ranble the Jewlsfor, and that was the moment of realiationfor me line. Oh ordinary people navigate the world by finding a personthat has the skills and the tools as a bundle and then hire hem. It's it's offloating skill. Yes, I have the thing that allows me to do the thing that I want. I don't havethe skill to operate it, so I'm offfloading that to somebody else, yes,but what the wathet people can cetualize this is they wrap the skillsand the tools into essentially effect packages. If I want a photograph ined aphotographer, if I want a a shed and a carpenter and it's more efficient that way, ifyou don't have the skill, because there's no reason for me to buysomething. If I want to do something once right, if I want to just get to aplace that requires some tools and skills once orlench rite on or dosomething, then I just I just hire someone to do that so that I can try itor get it done once. It's not cost efficient or time efficient for me totry and get that skill set appropriately, potentially screw it upthat it is to just be one off pay, somebody or off loaed that to somebodyelse absolutely and whet that threshold dis depends on what your resistencSkillbas Isnnd hopiwl. You were so if you learn very very quickly,you've bought big skill base in the area. Already, it's often prettyefficient to grab the next cool and Laine and that' how you wind up with arock shop that has one of Everythingmm andgon pace, I'mgody to come round tomy husband, Bor, O concrete or or I going to do, tha myself. Well, how ARDCAN IT BE? And you watk so videos on you too, and you kind of rull the dicein you open there so tthat mind set for me of realizingthat for most people t the tool barrier is much higher than I experienced it tobe explained to me the social structures tA. I was seeing around how people used tools because in fact wha most peoplewant is a professional to use the tool in their behalf and what it maintain isa social index of those professionals, so mof people navaigate around thespace of things by using people's proxies nd. There's there's quite a bitof evidence for this I mean think you mentioned it is like most people.Today's, I guess Middle Class Society are people who don't have time to buildskills, because it's still, I e, like I think you're pointed out it's verycheap to bide, to buy tools if you're expensive, to gain a skill, and if youdon't have that time, worksor or O or money or whatever the resource value is, then you see a lack of tools completelybecause they have this. You know...

...roladecs of proxid people for tools.Xact am so tha to that model. Right, tha that insightthat the intarthing is fundamentally a social machine in which tools are tieto identities. The model that I had had previously for dealing with triticalintrastructore assumed that what we were doing was wiring together,bureaucricis and what I realizeis that we're stillwiring together bureaucracies, because it's only the extremely Li lavel Poavtectisions. You know the people that are really touchin metal daily, that webuild up the practical experience of wiring the dumn machines. Together, we actually as a society of arelatively small number of people that knew how to operate the machines, theirjolmas to operate the machines and basically thast the end of the story. You, the guy, that knows how to run therecording studio, is there to run the recording stereothat's his entireidentity. So we be, if I guess, if you want to use like a common nomancreature and softwar development, we society is a microservices industry.Yes, exactly tat! No, when I've been thinking about, this isbeing a technical problem. For me, when I look at the world, the question is:How do I get the tools to do that? Because I'm confident that, if I haveof the jeels, I can acquire the skills to lease the first approximation M and th realization that most people, whenyou hanmg the tools they feel helpless, rather than empowered Thot to meuse theGRCL INSETOH? Okay, I'm weirdly tool literate because I grew up in a familythat was all about jewels, weaving, ard, carpentry and you knowKanordinary Dayandday medicone. These things are very, very much bout usingequipment to solve problems or complex mentl models at were Wong with theequipment and but at the end of the day, it's usually into solve, probems and ina really big way. So I had this very deep blind sport interms of thinking about how the world works relative to the jowls ranks and that so of the untangling of thatresolves a whole bunch of fundamental questions. I have heard about therelationship between things and market now, that's what I clears about fromthere like t at you've made that separation, but insight did that Alliyou to move forward with so the Thi the whole sharing economy storyy. no, this was big. Ten fifteen years ago the world was going to run on Sharin the economy and it was going to hugely reduce her environmental superMHM m. That approach largely failed rightand it failed F, thre or four separable reasons, one of them, as it turned hat,that most people didn't have anything worth sharing Rightso. What you wonder,Uba was the renting econommy were the people who had arte, which were worthSherin and then rented them to people wanted to share them. rasharingrequired people to have cuup puriples of oursets that they were renting toeach other or sharing of each other. But when you had some people with oursets, O some people Ho asaid Youre Rent Inyo. The second thing is that you kN W.If there was a service which would come round to my house and deliver me Yo k,ow twenty thousand dollars worth of DSLR equipment in two hours, like youknow, peats a delivery or something an forty five. It Er your money back. Ifthere was a service that did tha, I wouldn't know how to use equipment atthat caliber. I can get my way around. You know kindof Mada Grat came reasoabl easily, but if you start talking about really highend equipment, I'm not going to be able to get the best Irea MHM and the was actually a huge part by thesharing acoly didn't work. People didn't know how to use the stuffthat was available for them to share, and a lat of that is because, in thissociety it's quite hard how to learn how to do something unless you own oneof the things t at you're, wearning on right, you're, not going to borrow amountain pap to wearn, how Tomo liktypically you're going to mountainbike on your Oad Mountain Bie, a wall till you know how to do it and then,after that you might occasionally borrow bike if Youre on vacation orsomething you see what I'm saying hhh. So what actually is happening is thatwe spend a lot of time purchasing tings that we then spend a lot time. faffingaround Wi h see whether we like the ativity or all, and if we do like theactivity, we keep it and become a person where that fing is built intoour identity. I am a Hoon Bluer and if we don't like it- and this is the key-the stuff tipll be winds up, mothboard in the garrage wean its als a like. I was a witness tess, but a meter ofhow much you are that thing based on the things you've acquired withinwithin it Skillso and there's this deep,...

...leaving together of idantity andphysical stuff on skill. Now that ECES, you know, I mean you'rein America or Canada, I'm in America, I'm in Maryland, Merir. So you know how much stuff thereis in American basements and garages. Oh yeah, and I remember growing up inTexas, I remember having to clean the garage out moll of the Times, becausethe card no longer fit in it. Yeah Yeahnow, that's not happening becausewe've figured out the correct market. Valus stuff band, even Ebay doesn'tsolve that problem, but I reckon that there is probably youknow: a decent sized countries worth of equipment sitting unused in Americangarrages and boxes emly to open to ten years. Dot could easily be twenty percent ofAmerica's environmental TIUPRI is an unproductive jump that in boxes sin itopen for ten years, but we haven't figured out how to Brin back into themarketplace to prevent you junk being made. How many people in America have a canoe?That's just sitting in the rofters of a barn because they don't use it in them.Useit n years- and you know somebody could be using that canoe, but insteadthey're going to either go without a cer, the're GINARANACR the go by itheworld is clongd by underusual ized ubjents and that condition where the world, asclobed with underusualized object. We canot do something about that. Is it the world or is it the subset of the world that has freetime to do these things, O Specifiallys, rich worldyeahbuand? You know we're ina position where we've built this massive Burgon and global middle cloksb. If the Middle Closs, Indians, an middle class Chinese and the middleclass, south Americans all adupt, the same relationship with physical objectsat Europeans and Americans have we are SCR hows going to be a galnticenvironmental disaster, so wh, I'm really kind of fishing around for hereis a set of new social practices mediated by technology to dramaticallyreduce the amount of overconsumption of circles, material goods. We keep making things that we're justnot used, and I think that's fixable. How did you I could say? I thit' issomething tha, almost a gripe that I've had m with I'd, say some of the youngergeneration, which is now a by product of this. This behavior. What you'vejust laid out to us is that Um wa Abolt, the old man mentality, kids,these days, have it all um they're able to figure out and understand how to dobasically anything based on the amount of information. That's in a mast andjust you too Balone, there's no reason why they shouldn't be able to figureout and do anything gain. We're not seeing a lot of that. We're sayingmaybe new things for like if there's no reason why someone should should um notbe able to go, do something by watching a couple of you, two videos and givingher a shot, and I think a lot of this plays into this, whether it be theygrew up in a society where they don't have the tools, so they have to go out and buy it ifthey can't or UM ther're. Just there's a social culture of offloating thatresponsibility- and this is thing is the the crucks ofit. So you need the tools to learn and you may need somebody to teach you sothat somebody teach you goes out to you tube and the tools to learn ispotentially borrowing the jels that somebody else used to learn so think of. Like homebrewing rent theworld is filled with used, half rozen times brewing heare. Yes, absolutely. I could probably nameU personal idhentification of thosethings across six or seven households, you seeso. What we need is an efficientway for somebody. Who's going to give hom breathe a try to get the kit fromsomebody that just gave who Broa try and decidded that it wasn't for thatMHM, and you know it might be that you gave a try. You scratched the EDGH, itturned ot t really fun, but it was less on the noombbrod and some people become. You know.Devotional Vocational Omebrewing is the thing t integrates into their identity.Most people give it a try for ile and then pass. Then equipment just sitsthere and in suggessingcuris that what we're doing with if a lot of theequipment is were trying one identities, amyhole brewer is tat going to be apart of my life as an wea thing. My Master, I tried it. It worked out,VRETTY, well, we'd poss only go to somebody else. BTWHAT's happening iswe're failing to pass the stuff on so winding up a bunch of junk, and I think that part of the story isthe place where there's room for us to...

...make a technlogical intervention. You try the experiment whether this isnot a technological interventto, this attentive social and Prepareo, to saythat I part of that is I'm catecarious. If the mass of things is trying on foridentity leads to this kind of m reluctance to let go of things becauseyou want to have a specific identa. I think there is some of thogt. I mean.Certainly the underutilized exercise. Machinery is a huge horror, lot store.Ri Ythatthey am what Ar th Cyclos Heltron something Therebranda PolerTransaven, what thins to purport men or Muse,because people want to be. You Know Dian from out in Fet, and it just turnsout to Ge a ton Ol work so getting rid of the exercise where shedidn't Lettinggo without future, but the home brewing example. I think theproblem is market bom. It's just more work to list the Dawm stuff on Hev Iimy wife Tir, gives things to good girl and prortings away more than she wouldmist it on a market likethiss because of the effort to price it, and do itand then deal with the aspect of getting up and got dealingwith each individual relationship of geting, Rimen Athe were stuck in thisenvironment. WOR We've built kings, FHOC Char too expensive to give away too useful to throw away but below thelevel of value where it's economically efficient for us to go through theprocess of listening N, an Ebay and thenselling, so we're clolging Ouf theworld with things THAC are too valuable to give away and not expensive enoughto Sall and that hundreds of millions of tons ofequipment sitting in American basements. What's the solution, how do you how doou? How do you? How do you SELV that I m an I'm Su? That's what you've beenspinning a good portion of your life, trying to figure out. Are you closer toa solution? So weirdly enough, I mean materium starts with an attempt tobuild essentially Supreme Court of the internere which will go right alongwith it. You K, O Betcoin as the worlds. You know the Internet, central backight central bark of the Internet materium was intended to be the supremecourtand. It just turns out there isn't enough real trade hearpening usingfepal currencies to suppor a Supreme Corp Woth. The Internet T we're just we're just not seeingenough disputes that resolve to wee way for us Discoverin, each ther. So abouta year ago we PIV IT and said: Well, LOOK YOU KN! This is all about gettingcontrol of our sets in the material world. How were we going to do a TOTREAC to second ron to research, whic turns into discovered the asset possforand were known the of very late stages of sating up the Alfa for the ASOposport. So the Assad possport is materians. We all you knocynolically,giving a name to a physical thing and Identtifin Mein. We hat gives us asolid hanble for it, and so this this whole thinking about thingsand scales is basically methink of I shortwe we're going to have thisability to generate ossat posspords for things and iverticly. Happy doing youknow fine wine, lockup, stratovarious violins, and you know the rest of will have you, butyou kn. Those are all things which are relatively mechanistic and he don'thave a lot social to detached them, but the prospect of making a smallintremental improvement to how middle class and richer global society relateto the material world. I think that there is the possibility of a realsocial innovation there. And U it's not that we're not in an age ere thingsLoke, the O R Arbne bes a huge shifty human paverand. It's enormouslypulsitive effect in Bost People's offs. I think bosst people would agree thatthe world is a batter place where there are Beeng, Buslovit, Ouber Y. U Knothey're losing money Hond over fistand. They don't treat their drivers verywell, but the same kind of thing is true: Over Yar, really the social, the social aspect of like M,how humans, naturally communicate or negotiate these types of behaviors isbetter. It's not as constrained as it once was with the previous thing exactly so I think that there's roomfor something like that, but for physical material. So you know we have this role:technology, okay, we're going to do something who said DNS and t allows usto Baind, Meto, Dachinto, physical things and then publish services. Alondo things with physical things great dreat, but then I try to figure out.How do we get you Oer, the kandle of you know: hundred million users,blockchainout finallegos mainstream cand of outcome from thet, which iswhat rolshsooting for right, ere all shoot, tin, Lov Urn, the BLOLKCA, fullyintegrated Intori nor errby people's...

...lives and use it thirty times a daythan everand. Wi'm kind of you know sitting here with watch making yearjust KINDOF treaking a twiddling. Mom is how do we take that Bruin kid thatsomebody Bole I used six times said right: Aho Nafala and the wepackagethat stuff into a formup for somebody else will buy it for something close tothe original cost. So how do we get from where we are tothere? Well, you need to be able to Identiz the stuff you nee to be able tofind a person that wants to consider Bruin, they're, probably also in themarket, for some training or they're, going to woars some you to videosthey're going to go through an Iden to the acquisition posess and thatidentered the acqosition process. If you got the suff, you got the skillsand then you de the ritual Thach makes you breer you make the thing and that making of the thing an thecombination of information, skill acquisition, identity, physicalequipment and a sort of procegural thing weusing the material world to gothrough these kind of dramatic reinactments of new rules all the time.The things are props in our stories and the problem that we have is that we'renot passing the props on to the next person wants to tell the story. So this idea that the things exist asprops and narratives ander what we need as a way of trying, the rue on thenwain the wargo and then taking off the clothes and passing them on, but Ithink that there's the possibility of using watching imediate thattranslation and I think that that could potentially produce a social shift inthe way that we think about things. In the same way, the Erabeva shifted howwe think about space. I love that concept. One of the things I've been recently trastically fastered with andsomething I think, is incredibly important in terms of shifting socialculture is developing the UM infrastructure for microeconomies,and that's a lot of what you just describe. Tell me a bit more about theMicroticonomi's concept. U Finly Find Thi this tweat that you say in the process of acquiring things totry on an identity, a a find, a three but I'll sumarize.Here, it's Asically y. You buy a thing to develop a skill to try out an identity to join a selfculture. Once you as you develop e skill, youthen have feedback within thet sub cultures, you're joining a community Umin the process of doing those things infrastructure. To do all of that, it'svery important right now we have things that are maybe marrow minded and the American strainedin the process of doing that. Think about Ou, know, redit and all tiedSebrat its but o those lack thes, lack physical connections with people. Theylick the ability that you ere inxact value ith in those people, so you havemicroeconomies within those microcommunities right right, right,Youre, aeneborwhat, you're, saying is this the passing on of the tools takingoff the clothes and giving it to someone who'd like to maybe participatein this microcommunity? If you no longer want to participate ye exactlyexactly and it's the transational friction. That's nailing us here.Aright payments are hard. There is fraud so that yeah, that's yeah.Absolutely w tell you bit more about how you're thinking about Gography onmicrocommunity Sothink, Yo Camits, it's! It is more difficult to pass on a use brewers set osomeonewho's across the globe than it is inther local C. I can't drive it me Osthe same place more like you know what local theorym is or local Biin is thatit adds a little bit more Frectiane now. There's ways to fix that. I'm sure, butthere is friction there for digital microcommunities are alwaysgoing to be easier to facilitate than physical, good microcomunities sowouldn't, you say: MIC Com, easrthinking of like communities of interest or r. You thinkabout also specific geography I originally feel is cunes of interest.A geography would be a subset to that addressed because it's less friction. Iwould join M my local brewers club bum and have more real social interactions with thembefore you know the people the people associated with the Sebrete ofHomebrong hmit's a like real physical human interaction. You can, I would quickly, go to a localbreers club to do that type of thing, whereas maybe ininformation that's lessthan personal the things I can learn, fror him I'll go from a brigteraudience. Myeah! That's really interesting! I think this is Qutis ginto split out t e skills from the...

...equipment you like they, the skill's, really AU,a global marketplace, Hou Yehow to information UST slushes around on theInternet in piles M, but the physical material and the skill use it an. Iwent camping with some friends over the weekend and you know I spent a fair amount of timeoutdoors. You know no so much recently, but you know it's been years. You knowintense and stuff over the years and Y. U know it was time like trucker,siches and a truckosichis not a complicated, not but it's who saw notand it looks quite complicated and and you know it was just a singrease. It was just like not magic, and then I thought, actually, you know agood at tiing this, not because I wan't a TI, no toos a boy scout and itcontinuously used nots. You know all the way through my lifeand have watched how they fail on how they succeed, how they weren'- and Ithat stuck its baked in right to the Boyweryou, do hoas doing it anymore,and the Internet is great for wearning that kind of stuff, once you know, t a the skill exists andthe skill WIS missing yeah. So I also feel like there's an ontological aspectto all this, that you need to know what your options are. No a there's- andthis is the discovery problem, but it's not the discovery problem for books ormusic. It's the discovery of for identity and equipment to supportidentity, and that's really. The thing that Iwant ta can drive home is that I think that we've fundamentally, you know facked up consumerism, because wedidn't understand the rule. T AF things hard in the formation of identity, like we've made a fundamentalconceptual arror in the relationship, onfings and identity. That's resultedin massive overproduction of crap stockpaling of junken American basementon an epic scale and the inability to get people things that they need. Eventhough they're sitting inside of somebody's basement, you kno twohundred yards from where they are lite, there's a huge kind of cor log, Jomthere and kind of like if we had failed todevelop libraries, if the only way that you could getaccess to books was by buying them and people didn't lend books to each otheras a matter. Of course, if all the information in books was horrded and itwas kind of weird to look at somebody else's bookshelf and ostr a borro bookif books had been property that was not lent anywhere. TTHERE was no cultureround landing books and we would have fundamentally brokenpublishing riht. We wouldn't have the samerelationship with dey that we have, but the Library Taughs, that knowledge wasa common good and it gave us the culture of sharing knowledge and itsstar. Oven books then became everything else like if to be in a wivrremovement,they'd, probably know from software, and I feel like somewhere along theline. We kind of we took a wrong turn in our relationship with physicalmaterial. In a way, that's cause this enormous log Jom at the center of herciviilization onerit buying the thing was the quickest option for trying onsomething Um Mhm, but the problem is that there's not a lot of time. Word there's been a lot of availabletime, because one meeds to sustain themselves, yes, and so in the process of theproblem. I think a main problem with this. This is also why I'm interestedin kind of microeconomies and microcommunities ar likemicrocommunities that have economyes enabled within them is thatcurrently, as you try on an identity, there's no way, even if you join a selfculture or a culture, and can you contribute to it nd, you spend a goodportion of your time, your free time, contributing to this thing, and youbecome part of this iscommunity and it is a part of your indentity. Itdoesn't allow you to sustain yourself until you've gained the status ofexpert, where you can then market your skills in some in some way. That canthen offset your typical. I need to sustain myself income yeah, that's aproblem, because the majority of people who would potentially go on to love andbe something of a committeethat they'd like to do can never get to the pointof sustaining themselves. Yes, absolutely an TAT is a super hardproblem in arapicte changing I at's t t it's a step function, it's not it's nota gradual shift, and so you can never slowly move into something and has tobe a giant leap of faith or a very risky decision, and all all thattates risk capital dakes the ability to absorbe shottle balls, I'm quiteinterested by the process, but where, by which people become professional,video gamers. Well, that was A.

I think that led potention partaly ledm by their ability to stream playing video games and making revenue off ofthat which was led from utub into twitch, and so because they were ableto sustain themselves building up small communities of people watching themplay video games. They then gathered the r requisite skill set to join teems,as well as Abilit to monotize, through advertisements and so on and so forth,which then gave them like the a massive leg up, and I guess you can call itthem. Ten thousand hours required to become an expert abs and Uva is a weirdthing to me: ECAUSE I I kindof gave up video games o ninet one or ninety two,and I was at university and civilization came out and you couldn'tget on a PC anywhere in Edinburgh University for like four months everybody was playing civilization. Would bemoki literally I mean that wewithout n enough that we had wise terminals and pcs sit by side and atthe labs t it was Ecolo somrack stations, Oivmpcs ared, an wise turnmals and yo w. You could always get in a live terminal,but you get it you onn CARC, you can't play sit and that that was the point whe Ibasically steltd playing videogames. I helpe write a couple of video gamesafter that, but didn't platue SIDA kind, a dedicated way so watching video gamesgo from. You know a thing that I did with my mates when I was like nineyears old or twelve. You know eight bit games all the rest of that two. Youknomassive gold windustry with, like you, know, feature film budgets and you know these crossover retrievethat things that happen in video game world wan come part of the mainstreet.This stuff is all it's really really super confusing, butthen you see the economic bobbles and it's Li e. These guys are now likemusicians, there's entire some culture. The games come with identities andthere are kids who are defined by their level of game. fronchis like assasins,treat there ther their M idolized heroes for for a lot of people. Theybuilt cetiges around them yeah, and I mean I bet there ar kids right now thatare going out there to study gi. U because they saw asausage Fren thoughto things Awor Um, so t without tells me that theidentity formation thing is superhardwired. In my generation, the IDN, the cultureis that people Foran Identi Rember, wardly, musical cultures, no punksgolfs, ravers metal heads, you know folkies, and these things were clearlyidentifiable. Some cultures Ja. No, I think that that is Cenoo. Musicis a culture of games as a culture of sports, ysi culture there's much lessdifferentiation inside the contegories, with the categoriesre, much moredifferential N- and I guess that's probably alllargely driven by access to information. You got way more pick and choos inthese silencs. Um Thee were still in this position, wherewe hamn correctly conceptualized the relationship between things and theirnarratives and tha. You kN W WHA, runed, Ta Oi, see Tha, really driving ut it'sthis idea that we fundmantally misunderstood how the material worldintrersets with our wives, the relationships between Um the object andhow a person uses it to interact with some group of people, the old chicks in thesubject. It really is the Oppertnon the subject, and these things are theyreusing. The word in the nationalconversation right. This stuff is Al Sabiotic IHT. We we got into a positionwhere things were rargally identified by their symbol: Obob Thatit's, a bigyoknow heavy, looking thoros flast with a funnyan screw liten and a placebocarabina writ an outdoor guy, theres flosk. Why did I wind up buying it Outora guyther mas possible, because I lived in America or twelve years Iwas inColorado? For about half of that? You know there was a period of my life whenI was more comfortable with the backbark on than not aback packorm. Sothat was the natural thing to bark. But the actual function is it's a waterbuffle that lives in my house at age, war, i'mnosure, the things ever beenoutset, ESA. You haven't etaken Carrit oeverthing to a e, take out so a thatsee. This is this: is e narral ride,so advertising and barketing and innovation, it caples and all the restof this kind of stuff. They are superfocused on bying decisions. How dowe get people to Bui our stuff exacterl? That's what they're being paid for Welthey're not focused atoll, is how do...

...people give im rid of our sta they're buying the narrative littl lifeyou get by buying the object or like that they're selling, the Narative ofthe life you get by buyg the object. That is an essence marketing GT, but wedon't have anything to go the opposite of like how do I get rid of thisnarrative? Now that I have it? Sho Cal be Idanid it for a while Dont Wan toanywhere Nie to get rid of the aantity. I'm not a brewer anybore having. Let me take a manor detur into the homebreing. So for a while we threw La parties at my house and because it wasthe first time in like ten years. I've had a place. It was big enough to havea party, and you know the blockchain world was filmed with enthusiasm andpeople were just bouncing off the walls, and it was like this as a good tantalparty SOS. I remember Thos Thans, so IAD heard about this crazy stuff,falled, turbost and turtles to some o know genetically enguneered yeastRussia. That would turn just about anything into twenty percent alcoholand four y eight hours- oh my God, all yeah, it's moltisters so kind of as agag. We go hold of some Turben East and we made wind right and it Wa holariously bad. I can imagine, but it tasted fantastic-is mold wite weeturn into mold way. It went from being terrible to be reallygood. Balld wine, because a lot of the flavors in real wine actually don'tturn out lot. Well, an Mulvine but terrible witened me through the goodmouthedwife. So we just these parties through a winter that were just fueledby enormous ones. Muld waking and the stuff gave people horrific hanovers andwe literally breweded three days before the dom paties in a bag old cooler, coowewishav made the wine in a cu. It was like prison, hooch and inte, and the entire process was completelyhilarious because you know the story was you know here is the cooer with thetop on the front of it out which the wine comes. Here is the packet tapes tothe front of it hat? We made it out by he way we made it last week and it was hilarious as a stick forabout three parties, and then it was like if we were done without, weregoing to go back to drink and beerd lot as the endthe broom expiriement. Butduring that Shinanagan, that material equipment was useful nd the skills wereusein te Nottat was Oscarbut, then, at the end of that experiment am nevergoing to go out to doing that. Again. I but the equipment still linders right,Threreh is still a container sitting in a cupboard that went with at Shenaniga and what we just don't have is thebloody machinery for binding the Cana container to the Shiman Agan,expressing its existence in a digital form and then pumping it to somebodythat wants to play that game yeah, because, like there's, there'sthere's obviously leads me to a whole different kind ofthought process, but like that, there's parts of that of those of thosepaterials. Those objects that you use to do this engage in this t. This funactivity are useful, inother contexts M, so you could partitilarly puntpieces of ose things to different people and what we're lalking here right whenwe were kids, you know your parents kind of want you to keep tack of YourTois. ECAUSE you'll be upset if you use them has anolds wha were not very goodat seeing this. It is ended. We've finished with this. We don't want toanywhere. We don't need it any more. If we need it again. Well, we acquire nit's, not ability to top and seal andHavecloseour psycholongically that I think his wiwere getting dropped inthese labyryntsof stuff. I' also part of the- I guess part of our lack ofability to get rid of things is, are m tendency to hold on to the desire tohold on to reidentity, but if the barrier ofventury slash exit waslowered dramatically, that may not be there anymore, absolutely and sowhathis kind of moves. The wards is this idea that we could see a different relationship between people and things, because, if you think, like Germany andGermany, people hardly have ruled their homes, because they've got rentaleconomy. The movie works for people in in German conditions. It actualy is avery performinge connecton America, whom ownership culture. Youbuy a house, you dig in that's what you do, but treatness can of somewher inbetween the the cononditions o were moving intoGoballey. We can't forrd identity to be kite tightly coupled two material goods.If we shift identity in the material goods pileop in Comula, we need Allosrituaistic framework of stepping into an identity, acquiring the toolsacquiring the systems playing the role...

...for as long as we likand then passingthe entire thiing down to somebody an ows, more or less wockstock than barrel, and I think that this comes down tosoccer mediation. It. I think that the actual handling of the goods is reallypretty complicated. So we need to know what it was, but it was new. We need torow what it's good for now. We need to know if it's been down, they tweet o.How much it's worth me all. The transational friction taken away an Ebay go halfway there and hasresulted it in gengontic market for things being n en cycle ven and theother markets that Triedmemica from there Loton the marthouse but they'reall dumb markets, because they talk about things not by identities, righthet there, no teye not and at e,and because the Sauar always has more information than the buyer. Thesethings are also lamon markets. So it's hard to buy things, sack and harmed,because you're often to experience inexperience to Norban the moreexperienced persons ripping you off from this ality. The second point, so we've got just two or three levelsof cannostructural disincentives to these kind of ecolonies and et thinkthat the block chain, potentially chips away at West two of those mebials, I'm actually interested in a consequence of this infrastructureexisting and working appropriately mm. One of the I guess, maybe a gripe thatI have is that L e. If you look at Ilet's, look at American consumerismand and the tools they have in their kitchen single ue specific tools, um, that itOue once that you use very occasionally that a general purpose tool would takecare of perfectly if they had the skill to do so. Oh that's interesting. Whatkind of stuff, let's say a tool that cores Um only keyways, okay, yeah ht! I have onein my kitchen. I don't know W hy. I have it, but it's in there right. Ihave a tool, that's specific to coring keywees, because we drink a lot ofBrazilion um drinks, cal piprinas. If we make so much of fruit in them andsor and SOFOR yet yet ye, I see Howtho goes so this is, I think this is. Am I goingto say it's t specific to America, but it's definitely a consumerism driventhing mum. If you had a framework like this, and you were able to look at theinformation in which Um maybe how useful something is, and thenit th n n the frequency and which is traded and it's market price you'll beable to identify um the things you need to get the things done, that you won'tdo much more easily, as opposed to saying I need to do this thing. Okay,this thing is specifically made for it, I'm going to go by that thing asopposed to M. I want to do this thing. This thingdoes it, but all these other things which then allows me to potentially tryon those identities as well. For those other things, as well as lower theBariantry to exept these things and inoyoul world, you have infantry management softfare.That knows everything youll now, which is also a scare thought. Well, I mean this is the wonder ofGopography. Is that Yo can know everything youown, but you can be theonly person that note yeah. I that's a good point if it's, if it's implementedcorrectly, which things have not been done very well up until now, O e Yvic. So I downloaed the recipe from thecloud then, on my computer, we do themarching between the assets I have and the Recipe Tho tells me whether I et tobuy in Finur. It's t a world. I want to exist and Itry- and I hope that I can m watch it and help it come intoexistence, but there's a lot of wordblocks to get there as you've beenspending the last Tim, the last decade or more of your life trying to figureout yes, but I think that we are transition,I mean so th the Lorr doom of Materiam rightnow. The thing that I'm actually supending my days on is chipping way atthe interface between blockse and and Somantic Web, and we haven't been talking about it,this very much at all, because we wanted to keep our mouth shot until wehad a pretty good idea about how it was going to work, but the somatic web community has spentfiften years building incredibly detailed antologies for describingphysical processes. So, for example, the antologies are used by the chemicalengeering world are denominally detailed, they're, incredibly specific,an because they're being used to represent knowledge, insidechemicalengineering processes and those processes are worth hundred andmillions of dollars, and so the knowledge o representationwork has been done by the Somantic web community in the semantic Ligdatacommunity. That stuff has come alone so far, but it's not gone through the kindof explosive Caban that you saw from...

...eir of the expose of Camband youselffrom watching. But I'm completely convinced t the Union ofthe sematic Web Athe spart contract is what produces this next Wav Il ofInternet development. I want to buy a computer tomorrowmorning with two USB ports that will run the folling version windows andthat is agoost. This fast. That show me the closest machine that itmeets myspack Awell. That spack has to be expressed in some kind of markuplanguage, otherwise Hov o Edo a search you're o going to getluckinispecifisitto free text. All the models for representing thosekind of things now exist, write thismotic web GIS of apologice foreverything. So you take the object. You express theoltraottributes using thes Ad Onatida of four months from the somaticbarfooks. You put the harshes of those things onchain. You store the files themselves to something like pfrs, O Po, someMagidata somewhere as easie find, and what we begin to get is the abilityfor people to publish an existence, proof forfistal object and Okan e start inside of tight narrow,defined verticles, but once people have got the ability to put up a smartcontract for an object in the same way that you used to be ae PA bapage for ahobby. I think that we could see a very strong tendency for people tha taththings that they're not currently using very much that they might sail o randand you've got a single permanent record for the object which existsacross multi blomers so that the transaction cost a creat inthe Mont in the master record to destroy the thin happens once and thatI, whoever happens to Ollit just uprates the master record. If there'sany change in the things condition- and you see immediately- we begin toradically drop the price of the transactions, because if the salar thatyou boltit from gave an accurate description, why are you going torewrate the description you Passi own, the line, and so we begin to conteptulize thatthere is a permanent description of the thing in and of itself having its ownidentity. And then we become the keepers of those things while theyserve our narratives. But the thing no longer serves the narrative. The thingis detached from your identity and passed on to somebody else's and we don't have to go through. Work Fcontinually me describing and remenerating the thing, because we givethe thing that' all respect and we give things O idantity, which is independentof our involvement with it see what I'm saying absolutely and we've got this in video games. All these kids are playing games inwhich the things are externally described by the game, and you pass thestuff on and take new suffer review it all the time they're alreay welltrained to the idea of machine management. F Infantry, so maybe justsots Rit ontup, a video game culture that you get something that gives youlike an inventry screen for your equipment. I think we're seeing thatand that'll be that'll, be one of the first use cases of o R. Likeimplementations of this concept is through video games and the items youyou gain win evolve so on and so forth within those video games and then theTR, the freemarket trading of those items as people want the desire new identities within them or or Gonwith the Vigeogame heaw saw the first effort. Try of thisin a real world market with like the Davothree Auction House, which was thenturned into basically just pit pulling the auction house so you'd read, I guess, a fairinfrastructure to be able to do this, and I think that's what y Rey you'llend up seeing with some of these maybe trading card games, Wi shuldn't leadinto a more general use case, so one and so forth, and then attachingphysical goods. To these things, as like I said earlier, I guess doing this in a purely digital context-is, I think, easier to do than actually attaching physical goods to them. Yes,e diital is super easy because the descriptions are suppery southperformanc right. The description of the object. I undigital is the OBTER, but you know I mean this this warballhere there is an exact digital model of thisthat it was manafatrefom and if the manufacturer would give meaccess to that model, I could just tie this to that mudl and it would beperfectly and completely specified for the next person who wanted to buy MHM, I mean as it is. I can point to theurrow on it and that will tell us a whole bunch of stuff as all as amanufacture maintains at Yure row, but why shouldn't the object? Have a copyof its own DNA scarcely at's, just it's attaching scarcely to it or like uniqueidentification. That's looked up. I...

...think it's almost laziness. Right Imean the manufacturers, don't realize that people want really precisedefinitions of the thends and t do that is that is en. Is that asimilar mistake that you've made with tools and their skills or one thing? Do People Care? I think people don't care berer thanmachines care if it enables them to do something theycouldn't do before, because their machines care then tey care exactlyright. Tho think of the furniture rigt AKEA has thiy a which will coopfurniture in your room in Ar. So you can figure out whether or not you wontLove Es Furniture in your household, very powerful, very elegant, very gairy,fancy and somebody. I think Google is now doing this with dolge greeds. You could put a virtual dog at yourhouse up sure how big the dog is. Is O Ashead, O o Erit ul, the FIC, aincreasing Le being ball on the basis that you've seen their virtualrepresentation wone of the virtual representation, so thi smooth landing together. Thething of its virtual vertuality, I think, is turning into a a differentrelationship with reality. Already I I've seen the virtual furniture I'velaid the virtual furniture out in my house. I, like the virtual h furniture.I csay you don make it so when somebody comes o delivers and puts out for me and me and the person Tha Puv it up forme, ore working from the same operationalmoun M, so goting is industrial use. Allthis stuff in a consumer contex is pretty highfully and pretty complicated,but in an industrial set, and it's much cleerer to see her. This works n because in an industrial, setingyou're almost always buying things from specifications, often from the LewisBidder. It's also matters generalized, then, on Indutional, pespect IV you'redoing something you're trying to do as as efficiently as possible in anarrowscope exactly. But API is a little more narrow if you willusingsofper speed and then n the pigs t at you're buying is much morerestricted. You ever seen the GRAINDER cataloge. Yes, so you for folks a the Granger Cao isprobably three times the Lanta word of the ringand e Yand is printed on paper of Surch there n and it's everything that you wouldneed to run into Shou civilization. You know sultans staplater, soldierandirons. You know cruws mats signs on signs on signs everything. So if a company wentgranjer, you Kn told the Mount offactors like look. You know we'regoing to charge you it'l one dollar a year. If you don't provide us withthese digital models of the things of your Salem. Most of the MANEFACTORS, don't mind,sharing afthe three d model that their thing was made for right I mean there's, there's nobarrier to entry. For somebody copying that model from a physical thing. Wegot nothing to lose. No, the entire manufactured environment could berepresented, insitable auventared reality Ityou can literally get thedigital models from the monufactures bill them into e R derive a semantic description of thething from the digital model, with hight interior dimension weight. Allthat stuff could be drie if it's on there already, and so we can basicallyhypothesize patterns of interaction betweenphysical things from the digital models that the thingswill create from this is centocose to the digital twinmol. So you know: willthis water bottle fit insighe of the CAPHOLDROM this car? We ought be ableto get an answer to that before we either buy the car or the warfall, because there is a digital model ofboth of these things around and will it fit as a question that machine cananser, he will hase to rely on on a website's ability to provide thoseoptions for you, W ith should come automatically from the manufacturingspects of the thing exactly exacted ihtand that as a cor concept, I think,is completely sentral to what happens in the future. Like I don't think, there's any wayaround and Thou Asar Mor Manufacturers hate it huge O, diticalfruit print, huge carbon forprin, it's a total pain in the OSS nd and we could get rid of almost allof our if we hard trustworthy digital twits for the object and then softerethat would realist to be moral. Home Usally were in the fact n and you know thinkofty Atanicineffictioncies on the coling industry, yea t the Amo waste that comes out oclothing is gigantic. PARTICULARLYUBIC...

...is clothing and te most people mostclothing. When the thing linds up with a hole in it, you throw the intardarmaway and there's no efficient way of recycling the don things because, forthe most part of their mixed materials, odly need to be color, muched orgreigate. To someone who doesn't care- and you know the hipsters parsuccessful, O shoulbe Higer Cloti te backinsevate ou or do than theyeed agood job O do in that. But what we hame got is really, youknow comprehensibly getting a Grep on the Waist Street utalt producing itwell, firstally, there's a social convention that we don't mand thingsanymore, but I think that's highly addressed that leads back to ouroriginal conversation of tools and skills. MHM Right, Manan, his hart, butalso mending, is somewhat socially forbidden. You know mending is nolonger an activity that has any kind of state. Is Ore Pride to Tatch I'd, say a commodity of goods has alsoled to that social convention exactly because advertisers marketers peopleare manufacturind things. The last thing we want is omen to culture andit's, it's it's more economicallyviablemore oft than not to buy something Ta than amend it. If youdon't have the tools and skills to do so mhm. This is also a product of totalpoliticand monitor. So you know things have gotten super chupdto me, because we've got complete control of the manufacturing conditions. Tal Total Quality Management Unbelievabley transformed the way thatsociety work, Anwasi doe even understands, but it's why you can buy aphone for a few hundred dollars that has more computer in power than theentire world. A in N ninehutered, an seventy five, the defectory on each one of thecomponents in that phone is o one, an a hundred thousand one, a illion tenmilton that's what gives us the Abilitty tobuild artifacts at this level complexity without having them break. If the defectorate was one in tenthousand, you would never be able to make a phone, so I guess I'm driving at is. If we don't pind a bear way of monagingrule physical things in our lives, we're going to completely fail tomonage the enviroinmental scarciity, which is the fundamental driver in itsfifty years. We certifly started out with aconversation of this is an envire mental problem yeah and you resenti inpeople to provide for so they moved into the reason whyas the wise, becausepeople aren't getting rid of their things, because they're t' not easy todo so that, probably because of infrastructure and en social culturebuilt around e ever Shufter, the current exest yeah an I mean right now: Americans livits something like six toeight plonnets worth of consumption and that's a lot of consumption. Europeansare about three to four clonits worth of concuption, so between the Americansand the Europeans they're using practically the entire upon itsorthornotral resources. Before we start deaing with the rest ofthe human race, we are gigantically over what we canafford to extract from the world an its casing. Absolutemaher whywe really really calls absolutely aso how do we get lid on consumption of this kind of scale? How Wo Howwe weinjure? We use things in a way that could predentially reduce ourenvironmental hooper by eighty percent, which is about what wil becand. I think,th t. If you look at the American basement model, you know most Americansall f the generation, the Harvfee car gaerages, probably only ever touch tenor twenty percent of their material peedastions in ha given ear. All that stuff, that's sitting in boxesin the attic is never going to be used that somebody's going to have to throwaway when they die. All that stuff is well that could be realocated tosomebody else used by something else, certainly think it's a good start, andespecially the concept of reusing it and recirculating it back into peoplewho will use it rather than just throwing it out yepbecause it all hasvol riht. That of people would buy it for sure. If we could only GE to them, I mean it's, it's not a allunreasonable. You could do that and but you know the question is: How do we reach the right? How do weget into a position where we're octively IU know engaging withtha neet, you kN, it's a...

...you know about the one baggers on redcncome across these gurs. No, I have so you seel a lot of this in the blocchaincommunity and more a yeur or two than no, but you know Secialada, so the onebaggers are people that have gotten their entire physical base, everythingthey own down to a single carryon Bak. I know this is nowyeah ten kiligrams ofmaterial typically M, and it tends to be. You know, Marino wool. They prettymuch all wear black and you know super swim loktops. You know sonal toothbrushes, but it tends to be that they're buyingvery expensive things which will lost a really long time, ondor. Also extremelymultifanctional. Hih Tech high expect materials things like Spectra, Dynima, Cuben Y. UKn, thy're they're, really investing in the stuff, because when you're onlygoing to buy one bag's worth of material you'regoing to get the good stuff anlea to it all it needs O to all. So I mean the one baggers. These sitsare probably on average living in a tiny froction of their environmentalfood print. Apart from all the air travel lodor, the Air Trabel and same thingwith the Marycondo thin like does this get me joy if not throw it away? Well,I'm not sure F. joy is the right matric for most people, but do I still inhabitthe identity for which this object is a prop. That's a really good question. Ithink that's a very interesting out. I just don't think people have made thatconnection as well o lot of these things, and if people ask that question,then they'd re analyze um the things they have and why they havethem and and optimize appropriatel, and so imagine that we'd go a worldwhich, when you buy something it leaves you a digital record. So you've gotautomatic, inventry monigement for your life. I don't Hov an induntry of IO. Icouldn't imagine preparing an infantry of fo him, but dont to the last go tenPAV and you know a single sock impossible to march doing it. There was a time in my life where Icould recite from memory every single thing iok. I couldnt ever recite to youthe books that I have next to May my bookshelf, much less what I have in mylife s, Vomsei, and it just turns out that American couldculture Itcan, youknow hzigwhen. It should desive is sometime round Tha nighteen fifties ornighteen seventies, and we go detarched from the ability to get rid of it. We lost the ability to let go a stuff.We form you identities with the object playing caproperals in those storiesthat when we shut down the identities, the props CCUMULATED, we never figuredout how to close the show and then get rid of the props of Len with a ship and that psychological glitch itha pared very nicely with the neatamount of Factur and advertising, because it's crippled tethefunctionality of the second hard market, Benoe g bufeconomic in theenvironmental imperative to dramatic, reduce our consumption, but we alsowant to maintain a hog cold. You live it and I think that what that turns intois incredibly efficient, second hand markets, because the goods areeparkably dured, Oh yeah riht, I mean digital stuff lost forever Ol. MyCamera Yer, you know, is ten years old, Ot 'cause. I bought it ten years agobecause the Camara hat I wanted to do was Ma ten years ago en theyre, like ahundred bucks and the Brutpultte Fontasi top of the way Nikon mirrorlessfrom ten years ago. It's a hundred doors, nd they're, beautiful thethe nickel onone rage, the tust beautiful, totally toally about T. so, but I'm Gon Guess My positing isthis: We've got seven and a half billionpeople that want to be rich n and if we keep telling them thatbeing wretches about having otwenty five thousand objects in yourpossession of which you ever only ever use like two hundred and fifty, then there is't enough room foreverybody to be rich Bat. If we bloody well build somethingthat was lik a search engine for the material world which says I won'tBrewin Kit and I'm going to try and wor to Broothis, we kan to make it hoppen, and somebody brings me their brewing cathounds it to me- spends two houers telling me what I ought to know about.Noyadenova ruin, then Wens, not halpier. ARMI and if I had to buythe Darm stuff and then store it, O get rid of that option or go through all ofthose extremely unrewarding and unsatisfying processes associated withbeing a salder in a second time market.

If we can remove the pain of being in asellar from the second Hon Market Bas for the majority of the glutches, it'sthe pain of being a salary, an e pin being a buyer. The money isn't enough to overcome thepain of being a salary or the materials clonging up reality. The stuff is noclirculated. I'd like to I'd like to rap up on that thought and and crabbyrebart leave our audience with that. I think that's quit a powerful thoughtin terms of like the concept of what it means to be wealthy, or it means to bewretched and and kind of hewl that then plays into yourquality of life. So H, thanks for coming on, I really enjoythis conversation ID think we dug into what I wanted to dig into and more isthere anything that I you would have liked me to ask you that I did task, soI think we covered pretty much. Everything am the one that t might be worth talkingabout in the you know: Kindo Intro, the shonolds, or something like that. It'sjust to say that you know this is fundabentally about transaction costs,igtit's hot the transaction cost associate in lifecycle management, thephysical goot and, as we all know, tha blochin is alloeur. oducing transaction costs all right. I will definitely do thatI'll have GE showdouts and how do cool Rijhazio? How do the learn more O Mmaterium Dorco I'll Hadd, that to the show nout as well axo wish it Wase soquete.

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