Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 110 · 3 months ago

Hashing it Out Panels- Digital Ownership vs Control

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today we're going to discuss a topic brought up in a Tweet from WalletConnect's Pedro (link below) about the difference between digital ownership and digital control. We'll be bringing on Julien from Unlock-Protocol and Rick Dudley to dive in further. Sit back and relax as we hash out all the details for you!

Web3 Triangle Meetup - Social Crypto Talk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=La9cPRhyQKw

Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. You're alive. Welcome back to hashing it out. I'm your host, Dr Cory Petty. Today I have Rick Dudley and Julian. I'm not going to try and protact your last things so I don't butcher it. GINAS though there's in this too. Yeah, not too bad, so close. And today we want to talk about a interesting concept around ownership of digital goods and what that means in a broader context of web three. This was a bit we'll get into kind of the backdrop here, but why not to all start by introducing yourselves, what you do, where you're from, and we've both found the show previously, but for those who haven't seen those, quick introduction of Rick Launch Gud start. Yeah, my name's Rick Dudley and work at a company called Vulcan Eyes, I founded. We do mechanism design and software development management for blockchain projects. And My name is Julie and Joanis to. I'm a Frenchman who lives in New York City and I'm the founder of a company that builds a potical called unluck, who's trying to build a critical from memberships, an easy way for old creators, communities brends to set a membership from truct and sell access to their members in the form of entities. All right, and Y'all'll listen to me, so you know who I am. Let's start by I'm going to bring on a screen here the actual tweet that got this conversation rolling, Pedro from from Wallet Connect that said Nfteaser about Providence, not ownership, and a digital president providence and valuable, and which I responded, providence of what? I think it's a very important concept here, right. So, like ownership, is the thing you're taking providence of and that's why it's important. Right. So it's a combination of the two and they both play valuable role, and which Julian responded ownership, as in control, not property. It's probably a more useful concept here, and we continue. Pedro says he likes this distinction of control over his ownership, which access, is something that I don't think I've explicitly thought in my head, but that idea has rolled around quite a bit. Rick. This is where you start to chime in and said he's going to be a lot of legal confusion around this too, because the idea of anyone controlling a thing but no one owning it doesn't quite fit well in the most modern legal systems. Absolutely, and then I'm like, Hey, let's do a podcast. This is an eging cop topic, and here we are, unfortunately, page or could could make it. He is could make it. That's about all others to it. So he gets to watch and comment later on twitter and Youtube if he's so chooses to. Yeah, so I guess the meme of this situation is an FD's are stupid. I write clicks and saved it. So what's the point? And I think a lot of us who understand the Beck in technology of why this stuff works or why it's important, is tied up and ownership or the ability to manipulate that thing, and Ftaser just basically a key value store data structure on a blockchain, pointing two things. More often than not they're pointing to some image that's stored somewhere, but they have a tributes, attributes, sorry say wrong every time, and you can track, you can guarantee who owns that set of set of attributes and you can track how it's moved and what value was moved for for its entire history, depending on what blockchain you're looking at for that matter. How do you differentiate this thing on a broader scale? I mean, I think it's pretty straightforward, actually, I think I think the there's too proba. Well, I think there's kind of like maybe three high level problems. One, most people don't understand what intellectual property is in the first place, so they're kind of just making stuff up anyway. And and like the auxiliary three of that is intellectual properties very abstract right, even when you do understand it, it's it's it's pretty not. The analogies about how Ip relates to like physically owning something break down pretty quickly. I mean even Property Law, if you think about like owning land, even that is not like a various people have mentioned that on twitter. It's not like a very clear people often times are confused about how that works legally. So I think, and I'm not a lawyer. I'm not a practicing lawyer, I haven't passed the bar or anything, but I...

...think a lot of those statements are just made out of out of ignorance. And then when you get to what actually an n FT is, as you were staying at the start, like again, people have no idea what an nft actually is. So again they're not saying anything that makes any sense on that side either. So it you know, nfts to grant membership rights are obviously not something you can write click on. Right, not that to steal your thunder right, but like people are like nft's do this, enought do that. NFT is a super generic thing. It is not just the JPEG that you can write click. And even if you do write the no one is claiming that the NF, that the record in the blockchain, has any relationship to your copyrights. Right. That? That is the most frustrating thing about this whole thing. As I don't I I mean you could do that, you could make an n fft that represented a copyright, but to my knowledge no one has done that and there's again legal issues with doing that, which is part of why no one has done that. So I think on that front. Actually, I'm definitely good with you. Like these are completely orthogolal concept like the the low exist in one dimension, in the Blushin exist in a fully different dimension and there is no in theory, at least, there is nothing that links to to I've seen some project. So if I'm from Craig, I think board APS actually released the IP around the design as create common zero, which somehow fits in the IP legal framework things. But it's kind of it's also kind to be read of it. It's like almost as if Switzerland decide like a law is something that would apply to the rest of the walls. Like you know, I live in the US. I don't care what Switzerland does in that way, and it's kind of the same here. It's just like a way, at least in the legal lending the meat space, the people that have created the board apes illustration, which no are known, I guess after last week's article I have said that they will not go after anyone that uses that Ip in the meat space as well. But that's completely, I just said completely not just orthogonal, but like in the different dimension. It's like it's completely irrelevant to the NFT discussion itself in some way, you know, curious like. It's my opinion. It's it's just because people don't understand what's happening. When you when you look at the broader understanding and media push around NFT's in particular. But this this, this extrapolates to any token on a blockchain, whether it be fungible or not. It's it's profit driven around art and images. Yeah, and it's we're only now getting to the point where access is what you're buying, being a part of a group and that particular group getting access to additional features and things and what have you, based on the ownership of the required token of being in that group for an it for nft collection. That's quite obvious. I need this one, at least one of a given nft in a collection to to get access to premium features, if you will. And then once you start to understand that model, you understand start to understand the, I guess, the value add of what an nft is and why someone would use it and whatever the hell they're trying to do. We're not there yet because people do understand it, because the majority of the hype is people making money off minting and selling these things or move, trading them or whatever. and honestly, I mean I'm what week said initially. I think is pought on is like this is an extremely generic thing, like the the you know, it's an exit in of his three I think that we started with pictures of animals that are worth billions of dollars. It feels to me like that's of all of the things. This is just one of the manything that could have happened with these n FFT primitive and maybe that's a reflection of society as is right now. That's more that it is a retection of the what the technology itself enables. One thing that you that for me, what we say. People don't realize. I think that's exactly why people don't realize, because we are and that's it goes beyond a n FFT, like we're on the verge of creating a new social construct and someone like you think about ownership, ownership, doesn't like owning land. What does that even mean? Like that's that's not physical. Like there's no such thing as lend. I mean, yes, there is, like hills and stuff, but like there's no such thing as, like, I own this land. Basically, if you come after me and you're stronger than me and you kick my butt. You own the land like there's no there's nothing inherent to the owning something outside of the fact that somebody more, more powerful will enforce that ownership for me if I can enforce it myself. So ownership is actually deeply rooted in in violence, in that way, and I think what's happening with block chain is like it's not about violence...

...anymore, but it's actually knowledge, and at the core of it it's knowledge of a private key, which is no matter how strong you are, no matter how you you can, you can put a, you know, a nuclear weapon at my ass, you will not be able to rewrite that, that ledger on the block chain that says I own an Nfdi, own a bit coiner. I know and your own of these things. So we're moving from a from a place where ownership, but so almost kind of law, as being something that is made of violence, is something that is made of knowledge, of a secret, which is that private key at the core, at the core of it, like we just mentioned, as probability and enforceability, exactly in a way that it would control all of this thing. So like it's it's right here and you can't take it away from me in any way if I don't tell you. And and and we've seen over, I mean her history, at many plays. I mean times where people thought they own something and then some stronger groups, some other governments, some you know, people say you don know, you don't, and there is no way around violence, like basically vilence wouldn't be able to take over it. Maybe it's going to what's called legit or legitimate violence, I guess, of the State. But if you think about what's happening in the again, going back twelve years ago to bitcoined, or maybe even further than that, the idea of cryptographically owning something means that no violence in the word could ever take it from you. And that's what's happening here, which is kind of weird, but I think that's the new product that we're moving to. Yeah, I mean I agree with a lot of that, I I think. I mean, you know, there is there is the rubbers method of crypto analysis, right, I mean people can torture you to get your keys, but San but I think, I think, I think, without getting too dark about the whole thing, it's it's more about having an opt in society as opposed to a course of society. Right, we have this record and we all opt into believing in this record, and that's what creates our community, as opposed to the threat of literal physical violence creating the community, and that is it's sort of a realization or formalization of what we had on the Internet, where Internet communities were emergent, but there wasn't really any way to the identification with that community was a private thing. I'm a member of such and such mailing list and you know, no, you're not right. There was no way to really really verify that he that you were. And I think this is just especially from a generational perspective. I think N FT's are a way that people of these younger generations than myself are able to identify as members of these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these, these people of term mute that don't know what happened to read, but yeah, I wonder. Looks like lost Internet, because this is absolutely spot on and I agree with this. Like it's busy. The age of an opt in society is something that I DPDP, that you like, of course, if I own and if he that represents some physical asset. You can still come in stilly from you, but anyone was upton in the same community as me in the same ledger will see that I still technically own it. It was just taken from me by some other people in the ecosystem. And so definitely love that idea of opting society a ten just shows two things that I want to pinpoint from what Rick just said, and that is the this once again, separation of ownership versus control. The private keys are the things that you own, right. Those are the things you have to maintain and the ownership of those underlying private keys can be dispersed further right, and and management of those things and those so you have custodianship of that ownership and one way or another, so you have to maintain that stuff. And then, because we've used names like wallet, the intuition that Your you own keys that control things on a ledger has kind of been lost in a lot of ways, and so people think that the coins are in their wallet or whatever and and it we've we've severed the ability for people to into it that what's going on is we're just exchanging the ability to control digital assets on some verifiable ledger and and that is something that I think is is a very important distinction to make when people start building around these things and trying to understand why they're useful. And the other side of that is people don't quite understand it. This differentiation and why NMT's are something worth looking into or understanding and why they're going to be around is partly a like. The reason is what we're quick was...

...just talking about. It's a really great way for us to understand being a member of something and being able to prove it, verify it without having to rely on humans. We're opting into this system because it's off you skating the need to rely on a human to do that administration and like the kind of the third part that makes it more difficult is most of them. Once again, most of the focus is on value primarily. So you look at your wallet and the Dashboard or the UI is centered around how much does this stuff worth? What can I do with it? And as we move into what I think is this understanding of community membership and in social interaction, that that display of what assets do I have needs to change from how much is it worth to what can I do with it and what does that works right hundred percent of this, and that's I mean that you need to see. The thing that comes to mind is the fact that the must pop peter and if decontractable, is the open sea contract. It's not verified. Is Not I mean the open source, which means that in practice you don't really own anything. Yes, you might own the private key of a thing, but you actually this your you have no control over what's in that smart contract. For I mean, Gott knows who, but why? But there might be somewhere an admin function that allows somebody else to just come and capture all of the thing that you own and so or change the attributes or or change action of the things that I think you you control. Is exactly so. Having wallets specifically that would rather assure you the value showed the kind of control that you have is definitely something that would be extremely meaningful, because you don't really own anything if you have no what's the right way? Visibility, I guess, of what this thing that you own allows you to do or doesn't not you to do in that in that direction, yeah, absolutely, I do. I do recommend you know, if you're if you're playing around and trying to figure things out. I do say people, okay, I use open see it's cheaper, but don't try to like run your life on it, because you don't actually control those Inn ft's that are minted there, and it is difficult to explain that to people, especially when there's getting started. And I didn't realize, I had forgotten that the contract wasn't verified. But it is kind of almost like a nightmare scenario for a lot of us that such so much value is locked up in a pretty opaque you know, they've done everything they can to make that system as opaque as possible while still interacting with the with the protocols, and I don't think they did that maliciously, but it is frustrating that they had now have this huge market cap and have done nothing to address those issues. There are some white products, all of success in convenience. Yeah, when I say that, I mean, yeah, it's they're convenient because, based on the way in ft contracts work across the board, they're very difficult to integrate into wallets. Yeah, so if I want to, if I want someone to use walllet software that I create and I'd like them to see what in FT's they own, based on the keys that they have. Doing that is difficult on my end and keeping up with it is very difficult on my end. Open see was the first to expose an API that that waller providers could use. That made that very, very, very easy. So it got large. It was also one of the largest platforms for trading these things. I think that's a different proble though. I mean I agree that there's a challenge around the fact that they became the API layer the facto, which mean that again, they become a middleman and they could, you know, up to scape things and not make it obvious what you actually owner or can transfer any things. But it's a different proton from the them having a smart contract that people mint from, and I've no idea what's in there now. Like I do think that in practice there could be, and I think there's actually already at this point, more Apis for listing some of these countries. I mean own now, yea, and that that's good and I think we'll need that because a PC, therem I know a little bit more than the others, doesn't have good ways to actually do that and shouldn't have because it would actually be pretty wasteful in the core data store to actually have kind of the indussease to allow someone to list all of them and ifties that somebody own. So I'm again the appelier. I can see how this is not ideal from a from a systems design perspective, but I don't think it makes us hypoquts like the the the fact that the Muss poputter and if you contractable is not very fine, means that actually, yeah, you don't really own anything. You think you own something, but it's not more than a Databas in the records recorded in a database. In practice, though, that's the thing that words means. Is Not so much the yeah, it's the lack of control. Is like, I don't know what's going on and I have no way of actually knowing what's going on on how it's going to evolve in the future. Yeah, do you think that's because of...

...the kind of lack of intuition that I that I discussed earlier? Is that why people said? Why I've got there is because people don't necessarily even know to ask those questions. They just assume that it works because it's on a blockchain, kind of like no earlier misconceptions around. I it's in cryptics, it's on a blockchain or it's anonymous because it's not a blockchain, and almost things of obviously not true now, but it took a while to get there. I think people still say that kind of stuff to me. Actually, I mean it in and I think that, yeah, this's this problem with analogy, right, you're trying to get people like it's a generational thing too as well, like there's nothing you're going to say to a seventy year old who doesn't decide to learn computer science or cryptography or, you know, prime factorization or whatever they need to like. If you're not willing to get into that level of it, there's no short version explanation I'm going to give you that's going to explain the system to you. And there's it's a just an interesting cultural shift, right, like when, obviously, when this stuff started, it was very much, you know, cipher punks, right, and they they had this deep knowledge, right, and so they kind of didn't even have a use for the analogies, right. And and now we're at a place where NFT's, or the first time so, you know, defy summer and N ft's hitting so close together is like pretty I think socially significant, like culturally significant. But with but with defy summer, it was still okay. We've opened up to like finance right looks like it's like the finance debutm ball, basically. But but the NFT movement is really like anyone can be like, oh, I see gifts all the time, I want to buy them, but I can't because it doesn't make any sense. And now someone's like, oh no, I hear you can buy a Jpeck now, and people are like awesome, and I don't think that there's necessarily anything wrong with that, especially from like again, like a cultural generational perspective, like if a bunch of people get together and they say we're buying Jpex and like some grumpy old man, someone says no, you can't do that, doesn't make any sense. Well, like they're often doing it right. So I think that when you're doing that sort of social shift, you're going to have this pro problem with it. This problem with analogy is going to get worse, right, because people are going to grow up and experience the ecosystem purely within the analogy they like, like it's great, but you know, like you know there was at one point in like probably two thousand and eighteen. I would go to events and people would like know who I was, and now I go to nft events, of course no one knows who I am and it's wonderful, right, I love it. I'm not upset about it, but at all. But that's you know, those people. There's other people who people should really know in the NFT space. So they really don't know, because they have no idea what a blockchain is, how it works, what it's doing. They have a limited understanding of what their wallet does. They do not understand private you know, their past, their secret phrases. They don't understand all this stuff. They just know that there's a whole bunch of people that they talk to on twitter or read it or wherever, and they and they can now talk about owning jpex and that's and that's it and that and that serves the social purpose. I think I want to go back to what Rick said earlier, which I think is definitely good. Point is the lack of words in some way the lack of mental models. We don't really have a way to de we need to use that energies to describe these things, because people don't, as we said, they can. We learn prime factors to should be make sense of that, and that wouldn't be wasteful to actually have everyone go there. And so we try to. That's just humorphy something right. We try to describe something new with something old, even though that doesn't fit perfectly well, and that's creates attention. And the ownership concept, for me, is is definitely one of the critical aspects here. Is like you don't own an anything the same way that you own a house. In some way, I would argue that you own an nfty, inner, more fundamental way then what you own a house. But it's again, it's not something that people fully embrace and realize that we actually don't have the words to describe these things in way that would really kind of make what I would call reality, or what I perceive as really to you. And it's kind of I mean, I'm French. You might have understood this already from from my excit, but it's kind of fascinating to see that that is something that I struggle with on a daily basis, where I know the English world, I know the French words, but they don't mean the same thing for me, even though they're synontic I mean there you can trust it one in the other, and it feels to me like there's almost, I think it's all of us like this. There's a concept and ideas that English words, French words, German words, I don't know, Russian words might not actually be a good description of because that mental and the image of what it is is actually evolving in ways that are linked to the court. Keepabile to see the technology and that was basically, I don't want say invented, but discovered in a way that we've never put a name like. I mean when you know the native Americans are called Indians, because that's basically when you know Christopher Columbus and his crew arrived here there thought they were in need, and...

I think it's exactly what's happening here with ownership. We're going to call this thing ownership, even though, as I don't say, nothing to do, but it's very different from the actual physical ownership of physical things. Does that make sense? Hmm? Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, definitely. Often railed against the words we use because as they don't give the proper intuition to the how it works and unfortunately, if you don't come up with a better solution for people and it doesn't get attached to no one cares about complaining exactly need them, and then they in the limited which Iskin of the biggest frustration of old. Yeah, but I think that comes from that shift that Rick was talking about and and you're kind of discussing with how things are going. Comes from people, People's behaviors. Right, people are doing things even still using the old bad analogies, and eventually someone comes along and puts a new name to the behavior because they realize that no longer fits and people are willing to listen. What do we need to be doing, m because we all build yeah, and try and get people to understand the stuff more funamentally, to how it works. What do we what do we do to help push that along? My opinion, it's give people to use these things so they make that Association of this is what my token does and that's worth something. Yeah, absolutely, usage is a big part of it and what I try to tell people with in FTS is, you know, because people again, I'm by no means an FT expert, but people know that I work on the blockchain and so they ask me and I say well, you know, focus on the community so, whoever it is, if it's if they're trying to issue nfts, which is usually the people that talk to me, I say, well, don't worry about issuing in n Ft. worry about having a functional and deep community and then and then in that domain and then the nft issue once you know an expert will show up and you know you have to use your street smart or whatever to vet that person, but you'll get through that process and sort of the same thing as a purchaser. You know, look at the community backing that project. You know, don't just look at the price. That could be easily manipulated on open se or what have you engage in the community and and I think to your to your point, quarry around around usage and using the tokens. We don't have those killer APPs right now that, I think, really connect the community to the NFT, which I assume is in part what Julian is working on actually, and and me for that matter. It's just we haven't oh yeah, of course, yeah, it's that hard. It's even more pity than than we do. But yes, a hundred percent it. Want to go back also to what rick started with around the idea of mental models like using it for me that you called have somebody tell you what it is, because the word that they're going to use are not going to help you build that right mental model because it's so it's so different in some way that the words are so indimited. And so the only way to do that is actually to use it. And so I know this sometimes is like it sounds very what you mean. Use It like Donald? What? Yeah, DONALD DO. Well, it's then maybe, and not saying this to you know, purchase group to so you become rich. Like just go on some one of these test net if you want, like there's rink and be in the find a few NFT project there and then try to mint one, try to purchase one and work, we said, once you start to have an interesting of how it works on a UI perspective. Now joining commutee and try to see what that collective ownership because, like, in the end it's like I own that an ift, you own another and ift. We all own different and if he's it from the same collection, means that we start to share something, that we start to have interaction that are unique in that are defining our culture in that subgroup or in that small group, and that's the thing that's interesting to me, maybe more than the Oh this I use this version of solidity, or my nfts on Solana adversuscy theorem was like, you know, yes, this important topics for some aspect, but you're not going to understand what I mean, the concept behind owning it and if he is, until you actually own one. I feel like you're doing yourself into service here's really and by not talking about what you do, because that's the main point of unlock protocol. Is NFT's as use and it's and it's nfts as access. Yes, and and in a model that people already understand. Yes, absolutely. So I'll go there and do my my little quick pitch. But, like I do, believe that the web and the Internet all together have been built around the idea of monetization. To attention. Basically is like how can I, when I create content still five minutes or from your time, because I'm going to sell that an advertiser, and I think that's an informed that, I creates kind of bad incentives around comet in creation. A bunch of things. What I've seen emerge, and I'm not of a blockchain here, what I've seen emerge of the last fifteen, twenty years I'm living in the open way for a little while. Is the idea of membership is the ad that people are going to pay to be part of specific communities. And if you think about...

...this, actually is very much true in all of physical world. Like I mean. I mean in Brooklyn, there's a park stoop go up where people go, we do their shopping and stuff. It's highly, highly community driven. It's not about, you know, how much I pay. It's like really, I'm part of this small group, and so I do think that the sense of comptee something that is extremely strong and I think that an if these is actually a very good way of making the community, I don't say physically real, but in some way tenible as an object. Like, okay, I know that I'm a member of this thing because I've got this in my way. I know I have this little badged, this member scarred, and that's my it was say pride, but that's my my signal that actually own this and that's what I'm luck is. It's basically protocol for memberships in the form of NIFTIES. There's a couple more things, but read that's what it is at the core. Do you think that? Like, I don't know. I got into all of this tech originally because I was interested in the computational problem that bitcoin involved, like you know, proof of work and double spins and things like that. I was then it took the standard route of then learning about how money works and how bitcoin kind of occusiated. The meant that the need for the third party verification, and then it finally dawned on me after a period of time that at the end of the day it's all about communities like this is a group of people with that have an asset to point too for their shared ideals, and that asset generally has a value associated with the the shared value of all of those people's ideals. You're able to quantify a set of ideals within a token and it's distribution based on and that's kind of like a really fundament the way of looking at how to price in what something's worth is what people are willing to pay to get it and then use it for or hold it or whatever the ideal set of that token is. I I'm curious to see if, now that we've I don't know, the concept of nft or something that isn't just a currency of fungible token is now becoming more prevalent and the experimentation around that stuff happens if people, more people jump onto that same association that it's the community that has the value and that value is whatever. However, the token quantifies their ideals. There there's their shared set of ideals, like we all bought this thing because we care about this, this and this. It gives us access to there's other things which are which are similar and and in the past there was no way to quantify that or sell it or you know. I mean like you couldn't exchange it, you couldn't prove ownership, you couldn't encapsulate it, and a lot of the ways what we're doing is we're encapsulating that. You know, I guess going way to put it in my head right now, is to share set of ideals and I'm curious to see if people move towards that and then sort of say, oh, the stuff is worthwhile, or they're like that you're full of shit and that's the dumb idd like. I don't I don't know, because community is clearly that like the core of this right. That's like that's the only reason why any of this stuff has values because there's a group of people willing to buy it. Yeah, I mean there's one thing that keeps reason in my head is like when you say quantifiable, actually don't think all of the value is quantifiable, like more quantifiable better than previously, but I think some of it is binary. Right, like think of it as it's like you either have it or you don't have its, like we obviously have a big debate over the weekend over Catholicism. In some way there is no like I'm a hundred deatholicism or Catholic and then your twenty two, like you are in or not in some way. And so I feel like there is a lot of aspect like this where, even though it is quantifiable in a binary where like either in or out, it's really hard. I mean there's no such thing as like more of one than somebody else, and that's it. That's the value of anything's like full all out of the communities were I am not more a member or more person in your custom then somebody else. I am, like somebody else, a member or not a member of that ecosystem. That's that's because we don't have tools for administration and setting those batteries. But right now, if you have it or you don't, there's nothing built on top of it that people use in these things to differentiate that. But even there, I mean again, like there's a lot of things that I don't think you can easily quantify the difference between two people. Like again, like religion is one of these, like a guess I am even this why I don't and it feels like being. There's a lot of communies, words like you're either a member of that thing or you're not. There's no such thing as being a plus. You know, I'm more...

...of a member than somebody else of a specific community. So I agree with you. Like it's all about the commute, but in some way there is a lot of commuties that are not fungible in that sense, and that's why I do think that an if he's makes sense in that concept is like there's no, there is no it's hard to describe. I think a part of it, part of your difficulty here, is the fact that we use the term and FTA for all of it. Yeah, yeah, I think that does make this conversation practically impossible. But yeah, I think that there are definitely I think that the future of all this technology. I mean, how many people know what GCPIP is or, you know, the Indian and coding of a Jpeg, which I don't happen to know, right. I mean we, I think, absolutely the future products. Blockchain will be successful when people stop talking about blockchain. That's when it will really be successful. And you're absolutely right, it will be through community. So nfts will be successful. Blockchain will be successful when people stop talking about that and they just say, wait, you mean Grandpa, you back when you used facebook? They owned your data. That's crazy. They were stealing all of your value in you're like yes, yes, grandchild, they were. It was horrible and we don't live in that world anymore and I don't Folm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're welcome. Exactly. You're welcome. Yeah, I think that it's people will just sort of be confused, I mean, and that's also like one version of it, right. There's also this this you know, it's a Talitarian, authoritarian version, where we just have you know, you know, the three. You know, you this or Welly, and it really is or well, and you have the EU, the US and China and they control everything and maybe they even use hashling to data to execute that control. But this these questions that we have now about independence, freedom, ownership, liberty are just all swept aside. I mean, I hope that doesn't happen. I mean, I'm working extremely hard to give people their data. So so the hope is that people appreciate that and actually use and it's I mean, what we said about like stealing the data it's for me is like it almost it goes to our FIDALIS M in the Middle Ages in your I was like, it's not that they own the data, is like they control the data. They they know what they're going to capture from you. They know what they're going to sell to somebody else for you. Then then what they're going to lever edge as information for you. So basically, like maybe, I mean I actually don't think my data often times is worth that much to me. Like I'm not going to like the fact that I enjoy this kind of pizza or that I love this kind of music. It's pretty not worth a lot of money to me. But not having control over it is extremely scary. It means that they can use this against me in that way, they can use it to influence me or to turn my attention to something that is not that worth my time in that way, and to me that's the scary part. Is like owning in in the property sense, like you know, I could put a dollar price on that data, sure, but I don't think it actually is. is going back to the quench fibolt thing. It's not maybe something that I can easily put a dollar price and sell, because it might actually be more important. The control of it is actually something that is for Thementali in some ways, like in again, this is extremely loaded in Specifen us, but like the idea of slavery being a thing of a price, like Oh, I can buy back my freedom for a certain amount, is something that would be completely crazy. It's just like you're sticking into the ecosystems like no, no, there is no price for your freedom, like there's no, there shouldn't be a dollar amount in front of this. It's not something that you can quantify in that way. It's like you need to get out of this model and say no, no, it's not like facebook owns the value of my data. Is Like I want to have control of my data in the same way that I gave very loaded energies in the stuff would like. A slave might want to actually have control over their destiny rather than say hey, there's a price at which I can pay and no, it's mine, which is like, nope, that's not the right mental model. In My might at least, I think it's completely appropriate to associate many American economic models with slavery. I think. I think my experience of traveling. I didn't start really leaving the country until I was in my s, and I think a lot of American models are very even if it's not, they're much they're much more oriented on hidden in equity in relationships than any place else I've ever been right so, like when I've had dinner with, you know, the governor of some place in France and I don't know anything about France, he's like, I'm the governor of some place in France. If he tells you right away, when you're in America, they you know, you'd be weeks before you discovered that this...

...person actually, you know, owns the entire every conversation you've had with them was in a building they owned. Right like, like there's definitely, and it's directly related to cipher punk's right like it's directly related to how Bitcoin, in these technologies emerged, is because the American business model, I feel, more so than another places, although of course other places are like this as well to some extent, but very much in America. We want people to feel as though they have a freedom that they that they don't have, and and it's that and, as you know, as you mature, as you get older, you become sensitive to this, and people who are really sensitive to it, you know, become some kind of punk, right, whether they're an actual anarchist or got or punk or whatever. They they leave that society behind because there's no there's no path right, there's no way to go from like I live in New York City as well, and I see these young professionals in my building and I like, I know how much my rent is and I know what I had to do to be able to pay for that rent independently, and I know what they have to do. You know, when you go work at an enterprise and you go work at a corporation, like you are losing some agency in exchange for, you know, convenience. Yeah, Nice Plaster on the wall, like like a finer plaster, and it's like do I really want to give up so much for finer plaster on my wall? I probably not, but it's also a part of that. You've both of a wonderful job of circling back to this differentiation between ownership and control and pointing out most of the power and previous economic models come from this asymmetry of control. And it's not necessarily like we want to own our data, we want to control it and how it's being used in the and that asymmetry is is the lack of transparency of like where it lives, how it works, who has control over it, an agency over it, and what a lot of these systems that we're creating are is giving, not forcing people to take control over it, but given them the option to if they want it. And that helps people get from forcing themselves to give up some agency in exchange for finer plaster, because a lot of people don't even realize that there's options available to them because of that kind of backdrop of a symmetry of control. Absolutely, and the the asymmetry, I think, is in many ways the violence. It's the one thing that you don't realize is like that's the a the nation that the other party has over us like busy. They own you because they have that power. What are you going to do? I mean it's like whether that's that's its real that's no, you don't like it. What are you going to do? Like that's the bills, that's the that's the matrix bills, like the knowledge itself is the thing that actually is the freedom in some way with its own cursed like it's you know, sometimes there's a movie that I love. Is like the French guy who made it, ah, the UNs anyway. That's the story of a girl that actually goes to the astral and the forgets every day her story in the you've seen that movie. It actually happens to long Guiland. It's like, basically, the she can forget every every time there's something painful and if she can forget about it and then live the next day in a complete blues placeful ignorance. There's an out of salmon movie about that, I think. You know, maybe that's the anyway, but it was done by a French, French, a French ternal sunshine of the spot. Yes, that one, that one. Yes, that's a way better movie than Adam Sam there's movie. That's another one, okay, but that to me is like that's the curse of knowledge. Like sometimes you know things and it's it makes you realize that you know the the the life of a Golden Yuppie in I don't know where, what neighbor you doing, like wood doesn't think about all of the control that they could have if they fought for it could actually be so much better and knowing that it's so much work actually get to that freedom is definitely something that is again, I don't say Carson is read, but like our hard question, and that's the pills in Matt in Matrix. And if you go starty history in the Middle Ages, obviously fidal is inm was not something that was I mean a lot of the people that were, would you will this peasantry, I guess, were happily peasantry. I don't say happily because it's kind of a thing, but like they didn't want to be free and have to go find a job by themselves. Like knowing that there is this benevolent Lord that would give them food and take care of them was something that sometimes is is comfortable also which is going to challenge as well. Yeah, I mean I think, I think as from a product perspective. That's absolutely...

...our biggest challenge right. You know, how do we make products that compete with facebook or twitter when we literally have to like how do we hide all those options from you? Like we have to give you a whole, whole bunch of options. That's kind of that's kind of why we're doing all this, to give you a bunch of options. People don't want to see all those options. It is like. So you have to hide the options. And this is kind of what the quandary that open sea was in right where it's like, well, yeah, we could give you all these options, with then you couldn't use the platform. So what? How do we give you the options, because that's important to us and we think that it one day be very important to you, hopefully. And how do we actually make that work? I think that's to me, that's kind of the biggest risk of the sort of web three, I guess, is what we're calling at now, the web three experiment. Is like if we do, if we have to sort of skate this line where we want to give people the right to exit, we want to give people optionality, but we also need the thing to look similar enough to what they know. So that they actually use it and what they what they know is is very constrained web of to model where they have basically no control. Another thing I used to say to people way back when. I actually know a guy here who runs his own mail server from his house. To show you how old I am and how old this gentleman is. And you know, if you were to try today to run a mail server out of your house, it's exceptionally difficult to do. It's not easy. He's the reason he can do that is because he's been running mail servers for thirty years. Especially someone to actually get that mail. and that's another stand filter. Exactly exactly how does he you know, he could just learn demark or whatever in a couple of days and adapted move on. Maybe he worked on the standard. But but a normal person can't run a file server in their house or a mail server in their house. They so they certainly can't run an etherium full note in their house. So it's you know. This. This, I think, is a is the big challenge and I think that when we talk about n FT's as well, when he's like, well, how do I know that I own it? How do I actually prove that it's really mine. That becomes a serious issue. That hopefully will become a serious issue in the near term. We, I would argue that all of us who are building things, and, to quote your twitter profile, sell lock picks and not shackles. Yeah, giving people options to go somewhere in the event that they want to opt out and the system they're already in. We're very we're very ahead of our time and unfortunately the behavior, the the appropriate behavior of this technology is an Aff thema's to web to. It is a very different mental model of taking responsibility and not putting it out to others and relying on I forgot my password button. But like and when we try and design systems that are approachable to people who grew up in a web to world where they always had that convenience by offloading it to someone else, it's going to be very difficult to make things that don't, that can't look the same way. Or your you, you, you, you're forced yourself to make compromises the moment you try to and it's going to be a while, but I think we've all made the bet that eventually people are going to get fed up enough to learn or make that behavior change and that stuff has to exist. When that, when that happens, I think it'll absolutely happen generationally. Right. I don't know that individuals, I don't know that your average thirty five year old today is they either accepted it or not already. But I think that the younger generations will absolutely say. I mean we already see it with even in crypto twitter. We've seen it with the with the with the anime icons and the frogs. Right, there's like these I just see them as two different games. Right, like my brain, there's this there's this William Gibson novel called Count Zero, and there's a there's a chapter in it called Khaki's verse Goths, which really resonated with me because I work Khakis to work and then went to a bunch of goth bars and and that's I mean, I feel like there's like these frogs and these anime characters and crypto twitter who are always duking it out, and I actually see very few frogs. I see basically no frogs and I don't and I don't know what these different don't even know what their ideals are. I don't know what they're what they're manifesto is I haven't read the pamphlet. All I know is that a lot of people talk to me anonymously have an anime character and a lot of people who try to make fun of me anonymously are frog like the playactors. It's I mean, I wouldn't go back to another point about control, and I think rig ricketteded to this Ardia as well as...

...like giving control to people by giving them optionnity is definitely a good direction. But the challenge around this is like, if you fold on the other side, too much control, actually too much, so I. Too much ownership. Is like is also creating and of the products of choice, where it becomes impossible to actually you know what is the right option, and you fold into the trip where you have all of the choice in the world but you're actually not empower to make decision because you don't understand what's going on and how this works. And so that goes back to the earlier discussion that we've had to run like finding mental models and kind of creating education, and I think that's maybe one of the most I don't say painful, but like one of the most the hardest war work that we have to do in that ecosystem is like training people and telling constantly about what we found and what maybe they should try to find by themselves, rather than say hey, you know what, yes, of course this is the better version and trust me, like that's not if you'd say, trust me, this is a better version or, you know, you have the choice actually not impiring them, to make the decision and kind of take full control of their destiny, a game or what they want to do and feels words they destiny when it's like they're going to open, seem but like it's you have to know your shit to make inform and in valuable decision. Otherwise it's as if somebody else made this decision for you, and that's, you know, maybe better if that's a person is at least sometimes benevolent. So it's kind of a very fine line that we have to we have to work all the all the time, between giving choice, option, control and then obviously, at the same time, indicating training in this actually not just happens through technology but, like you are, through you know, words and two novels, like I'm reading. Books actually a very good way of learning about things and kind of putting yourself in situation that actually help you make sense of some of detectors technologies that we are playing with at this point. Definitely feel that. I mean, I'm I've I've said a few times in various places that we as developers who build things for people, when you when you work in this industry that is like fundamentally is trying to give people options, but is running up and because this friction of by providing all the options, you give option paralysis and this no on no adoption. It's now our responsibility as developers to provide all the options as possible and then choose appropriate defaults which dictate the behavior we think is appropriate, and then give them the ability to opt out to that. Yes, and that's the way we have influence, because we don't have the control or access or administration that previous at Web do application developers had, whereas like we don't like this, we can see your behavior, we're going to move it in this direction to what we think is appropriate for you, but not give you an option to change it. And so our influence is setting defaults but never removing the option to change them in the event that someone wants to opt out. And that goes back to the comment you made or hear about the what it's like. Instead of showing the doular price, the value of something, show me the thing that I can do and what is going to happen when I do these things. Like I mean if it's like, okay, your you have this thing and you're what, yes, you can transper something. NOPE, this one is not transferable, or to transfer it you're going to lose that much or it's going to cost you this muchly ton of that. You here. You brought something up that is the secondary part to what I just said, and that is like not only the option seem to be there, but the appropriate information needs to be as a leable at the right context so the user can make the decision that's right for them and not the decision you think is right for them. Yes, and that's a really hard problem to do. I guess doing that without overloading someone is very hard. Absolutely it's all I got around. Like, I'm pretty good. How much time do we have left? This is just open ended, forever open ended. I usually go around an hour, but if you have something else shoot out, I'm gonna have to I'm gonna have to jump and Forti key, but this is a fantastic discussion. Like honestly, should do all these. Don't plan like myself, but yeah, what doing a lot more of these. I took my hiatus from many things over the last couple months and now I'm back and I want these things to happen more and I appreciate if you help me broadcast it and do it's more. So absolutely, we'll have to do it again. Will wrap this one up and I appreciate you guys coming on as a pleasure does a pleasure. Thanks for having us, me specifically, and Nice to meet you. Rica. We have SAM very briefly crossed in Perf you might actually live close to each other. Who knows? I leave between the two bridges, as they say. Okay, I live south of the two bridges. I guess I mean parks of the kids. That's the that's the...

...joke, even the parents neighborhood. Yes, cool, all right, having good too, and I'll see all around. Pleasure you both later. By Bye, bye.

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