Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 109 · 10 months ago

Hashing It Out Personals: Rick Dudley

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today we'll be talking with Rick Dudley, the president of Vulcanize, Inc. Rick has been around the blockchain space for quite a while in various aspects, and has contributed to a multitude of projects. We're going to dive into as many as we can, as well as what he thinks the future of this ecosystem looks like and what we can do today to help shape it. 

Enjoy! Links: 

- Rick's Twitter: https://twitter.com/AFDudley0

- Vulcanize's Github: https://github.com/vulcanize/

You can watch this interview on YouTube at the link below

https://youtu.be/CZT99WsdSpE

Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blockchain infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology and the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Welcome back to everybody that they're hashing it out. Personal interview with Rick Dudley from vulcanized soup. Rick, hi, let's do the normal thing. Tell us who you are, what you do, where you came from. Sure, names, Rick Dudley. I'm the founder and you know principle. At vulcanize. Think primarily what we focus on is mechanism design for L ones and for small federated networks. So like sort of like proofs of stake federated networks, any kind of l one. We help them to make sure that their mechanisms are incentive aligned and that there isn't some opportunity for one of the users of the system to really exploit and take advantage of the system. Related to that work, we also do software development, so we manage inched the early part of epeus five hundred fifty nine. I'm a coauthor on that EP as a result of that, and we wrote the reference implementation, which I believe none of it was used, but that was actually what sort of got the conversation going in terms of how to actually implement it. And then we are also vulcanized. INC is a core contributor to the Cosmos S DK. So we are working on migrating away from I a vl to a sparse mercletree storage for their for that chain, which is something that's also happening in a very different way on atherium as well. There's a move to smt on quote unquote, either one. So yeah, so we and then we also have our own internal project, which I'll talk about a little more, but vulcanized DB is the main product that vulcanize developed in it allows for any individual running an archive node of Atherium, a gath archive node, to generate a third party verifiable proof of any arbitrary data in etherium. So if you have a list of logs and you want to generate a proof of that, if you have a list of contracts slots and you want to generate a proof of that, or, of course, the more traditional proofs, eith balances and account states. We can generate proofs for all of those things and maybe we'll get into it more, but that's a very powerful tool in the laws. You to do almost like magical things in terms of taking a subset of the etherium data and converting that into its own blockchain, and that's sort of how we're positioning it in the future. So you'll see that in the later announcement. But actually you touched on to two things that I'm relatively fascinated by, which are incredibly important to business industry but don't get a lot of attention, and that is infrastructure, like difficulties and infrastructure. Yeah, as well as the mechanism design versus Game Theory like that, like the cryptoeconomics and how people can like the rules of a given game and how people can manipulate them, and then the difficulty of building systems and such, the way that like a small number participants can't have overwhelming power over everyone else. Right and yeah, and thinking about that from the beginning, which is which is mechanism design versus manipulating it in during the game, which is game theory. Yeah, that's a great definition. I appreciate you giving that. A lot of people don't, even people in space don't oftentimes bother to explain that. And so yeah, absolutely. I mean for me, I got into the space to facilitate the right to exit, to sort of allow people to resist touchemonic influence. I mean that's what has always been important to me, and so I I've always thought about the the fairness in the game whatever. You know, we're making these games basically. So, like, what is my sense of fairness? And that's another thing that actually took me a really long time. It really took me years of being in the cryptospace before I understood like that. A lot of people in finance or people with financial backgrounds, have a consistent sense of fairness amongst themselves that is very different from like mine, which is also different from like your average person, I mean your average Americans sense...

...of fairness. You know, finance people screw each other over all the time and they jump back in the ring and they go at it again and they and they think it's fair. It's just like a they're just based on the like a heart assumption, like axiomatic. That, like it's a zerosome game and that's how you do things. Yeah, exactly exactly that they're in. They're very competitive people. I mean I used to work sort of coincidentally on Wall Street. I wasn't really in finance strictly speaking, but the the company had reasons to be on Wall Street and you know, when you're walking down the streets there, I'm six feet tall, I was oftentimes the shortest guy if I went to get a coffee or you know, and you know there's all that college football players and like really tall, huge people, and it's just that competitiveness and that aggressiveness is rewarded on trading floors, where again it is oftentimes perceived to be zero sum, and I think that is it really zero sum. I think we designed finance to be zerosum and business at large is obviously not zerosome. So we could take in a lot of the parts of business that might be zero sum and we've sort of shoved it all in the finance where we let all the like, all these like rabid animals fight it out for the zerosum stuff and then we try to take the the you know, net positive stuff. Unfortunately, I think in America we sort of abandoned the treatment of the net positive, but we try to separate that out and I think that's just sort of an emergent thing right. I don't think anyone designed that, but it does seem to be what happened. M How much put difficulties, if you face in the process of trying to help people understand that? Like you said, you do like kind of organized as a lot of consulting. You've helped with a lot of these early projects and specifically in mechanism design and trying to make sure, like what do you want insistem to do? Who Do want the players to be, and how much influence can they have and how do they gain it? Like what type of like what's your experience in these conversations as you're building these things with with clients? Yeah, so there's a lot of different experiences. One experience, well, there's three, three major points. I'm going to bring up one. A lot of people just have no idea or what a blockchain is or what it does. It's just a buzz word. Someone told them they should add one. So early on I spent a lot of time convincing people that they don't need a blockchain and we're really going through that process with them being like, well, you actually don't even have if you only have two parties and your sister to intity types in your system, like a buyer and a seller, then usually, excuse me, like Google ad words, like or add since whichever one it is I don't know, but like in those market places. Well, that's actually an interesting example. Well, okay, let's imagine for a minute that Google actually worked the way they claim it works, where there is an auctioneer, a buyer of ads in a seller of ads. The auctioneer is supposed to be neutral and the buyers and stars either have symmetry or they don't. And so, because you're that system sort of is going to naturally move in a direction that doesn't really need a quote unquote, doesn't really need a blockchain. Now here's where it's actually this is a great example. I didn't even realize this now. The reason that sort of ad market place would need a blockchain is because, oh wait, it turns out that Google is triple dipping. Google is on all sides of that market. So if you're trying to compete fairly against the auctioneer in an auction, you're going to have a bad time. Right there's the auctioneers just going to stomp you every time they go to casino, like the House always wins. It's well, you might have human yeah, you know, tells you that that they're going to that they're going to take all your money. They tell you that right when you show up. Google has been not exactly fourth right. It was the fact that they that they're on all sides of that market place. So so you're in that mark. And maybe they weren't at the beginning right. Maybe when those market places started they weren't as active as a participant on the on the buying of add side, for example, but over time they became more and more significant in that, in that part, in that role, and and it's skewed the whole system. And that's why you need a blockchain. Is because you if you set up your system and you know, Oh, this auctioneer is going to have too much power. But the so like, imagine if you're starting that out, if you're starting that out as a company and you have no money and you're just some plain old company and you're trying to get ads from all these big people like facebook or Cocacola or whatever, you would say, look, I'm going to make this fair market place. There's three of us, there's I'm going to I'm going to federate this auctioneer service so you get a cut, so coke can be an auctioneer sometimes, you know, facebook can be an auctioneer, sometimes I'll be an auctioneer sometimes. That way we can't cheat each other and will all. You know, basically you'll say, okay, coke, maybe me and facebook cheat you every time we run an auction, but when you run your own auctions you...

...cheat us and everything balance is out and we all run the auctions one third of the time. And that that's basically I mean. That's that's like I just described like ninety five percent of the blockchains or some day. I'm trying to like, because I've always how I explained this to various people over the years has changed more or less, I gets maybe depends on the audience and maybe my ability to structure it in a better afore, but it's like I try to explain it in the perspective of setting up a system so that you limit the like. You are very clear about the power distribution in the beginning of the end of individual participants. So like basically like how much influence any participant can have and the very beginning, and then the dynamics of the system that limit their ability to gain power over time. Yeah, right, and so like in a way, because I would I've railed against this. I think that the majority of the problems we have in today's, you know, big tech companies come from an emergent property that just wasn't thought about in the beginning and that's mostly based on like how you build applications, which emerge into centralizing a tremendous amount of data and then the ability to manipulate that, because they have it and they have they have to be good custodians of it. So they're very, very keen on understanding what it is and then they realize like, oh, we can make money off this and not what we set out to do absolutely happen. So, like, you know, it's so like the the what we're doing now is being very cognizant of potential emergent scenarios such that we don't end up in the exact same scenario we are today. And that is like all right, so how do we set it up so that it's fair today, and then how do we set the dynamics of this system up such that it doesn't end up in the same way where like one person has control of everything and no one can say anything about it. Yeah, that's absolutely right. I mean, that is absolutely what we're doing. I mean to me, I mean I use sort of more depends again, it depends on the audience. But you comes from physics background, so it all just kind of it all just kind of merges into like multi theory optimization. Yeah, yeah, part other. Yeah, he'll climbing, is what we use in computer science, you know, you know, trying to find the Global Maxima. But yeah, yeah, I say, you know, resisting hegemonic influence right, like I don't want this, because that's basically I mean facebook literally has air balloons flying over parts of Africa so that they can send them for quote unquote, Free Internet. But the the the criteria is that the actually, I don't know if facebook uses air balloons, but however, they're distributing their free is and they do it in exchange for those people only have Internet access if they have a facebook account. I mean, can you that's like, when you think about hegemonic influence, it's hard to imagine in a modern era. Something more, you know, non community based than that. There's a person from a foreign country deploying billions of dollars to get this other countries citizenry to sign up to, you know, this very psychoactive business. You know, I mean using facebook is extremely psychoactive. It's extremely mind altering and it's hard to imagine a more heydemonic influence than that. And so, yeah, we do to resist that and and it's it is sort of frustrating to I mean I think you, like me, have some interest in the history of computer science, history of the Internet as a business. You know how how the businesses evolved. Many people had no idea what they they had no plan at all, and in two thousand and one, you know. And so that's how we ended up with a lot of these businesses. Is it was sort of the first it was the first thing people came up with as a business. And I yeah, I think of course our first business is going to be probably a little rough, a little exploit of right, and you have to, you know, refine it and and move forward. But there's just the way money works, the way the centralizing nature of money. There's a lot of resistance to changing things once you found something that works. Are we doing the same thing? Because it feels like we're doing the same thing, because it's like it's one of those like okay, when you make it, when you make a innovative technology that that transcends the boundaries of what you previously have it it gives you more options, you can do more things, you can create things that have never been created. The first thing people do is to recreate the same shit with the new technology. Yeah, and and that's that's that's what we've seen so far. Is it going to get better or are we going to just snowball ourselves to the same track? Well, it's the same people, so it's the same. So, because it's the same people, they're doing the same thing. And I think as long as you have so, in one sense that means this generational I'm not, I'm not, I mean, I'm obviously, you know,...

...black, but I'm not making it into like a I'm not going to say it's like old white men, because I don't think that's really what it is. I think it's people from the old world are the first people in the new world and they haven't adapted to the their forms of this new place and new capabilities. They're just taking their old mentality and bringing it to a new a new like Meis what I do. How do I do this here? Yeah, yeah, and of course, because, again, because we accept. So this is something I used to say. I worked at consensus in two thousand and fifteen, and one of the things that I didn't sometimes my filter is on, like during this, and then other times in life my filter is off. And so one of the things I said at consensus that immediately I realized, Oh, I like, I should have realized before I open my mouth. We had we build all these systems, like proof of stake systems, and these people are always talking about, like you said, a new economy, but we we ask people to participate by providing dollars. And I used to say someone said that to me and right away I said, but there's billionaires. How can we have a fair system if the way that you get into the system is by buying in and there's billionaires? Because even if you have millionaires and billionaires, that's too much. You know, we could say we're all millionaires. Well, they're still billionaires. So you look. Yeah, I did the budget distribution analysis of early icos and they're like that. The narrative, the popular narrative, was like this is the most inclusive thing we've ever had. The distribution is so equal, it's like it's we've allowed a lot of people to be a participant in these systems that you look at the distribution analysis, the Io is it's like no, yeah, exactly here. They're here, but they have no influence. Yeah, I know you've allowed more people to dipticipate, but it's still like a few people holding all the all the value, or power, for the matter. And and and all those people, and I know some of them and I'm friends with some of them, and they were wealthy. You know, they're they're from whatever. I mean that, from a wide hooray of wealthy backgrounds. A whole bi every type of wealth you can imagine participated in that, in that activity. And I and those are the people that pay me, you know, those are my patrons. Like I'm very forth right about I don't have any problems saying that. And but I'm trying to build systems with that money where I would actually have a chance, where someone who has I mean, and I'm from a decent background, I mean people who with even less would have some chance, right. I mean there's a threshold. You have to be literate. A lot of Americans, I mean we're on this podcast, you know, we're in the cryptospace, but when you really like go outside, like a lot of people aren't literate. Like it's not like we have a ninety nine percent literacy rate in America, like Theo's people who just literally, quite frankly, cannot read what well enough to participate in Crypto. Like they just don't have that reading comprehension. And there's nothing wrong with that. DOS and make them bad people or anything. But when we're talking about, you know, inclusiveness and all these things, you have to realize there's table stakes, there's a minimum amount that you have to bring to the table, and part of that is being able to read and identify, maybe scanny isn't the right word, but identify the risk. Right, you have to be able to read what's being published by whomever, by sock puppets, by Trolls, I. Honest People, and evaluate the risk from that and that requires like a fair amount of intellectual sophistication. Maybe you're uneducated in you have and you've cultivated that yourself. I mean that happens with a lot of people, but we can't pretend like that's like a given in humans, like it's it's something that is is, frankly, not common. And so, yeah, I think that I am trying to build more more equitable systems. I think a lot of people in the space are trying to build more equitable systems and, frankly, the the the the my patrons are are these people who already have money and and some of them want to build more equitable systems. And again, this goes back to where I was saying before. Sometimes, when I'm talking to these people, they have finance backgrounds and and it sort of turns out that their sense of fairness in my sense of fairness don't quite match up. And when they say they want to make a more equitable system, they want to make a better zero some game or they or they want to give themselves, as the house, a better edge, and so we're saying, what, what is it like? When I talk to people that. That was the other filter. So the first filter is like, okay, you don't need a blockchain, as they're going through why you might need a blockchain, and then the other filter was, you know, I'm not. I'm not making I'm not giving the house a bet, a better edge. I'm not. That's not what I'm that's not my business. I'm be in them. Hey, I'm not. I'm not the right person for that. There's people who are much better than that, because it is more like traditional finance. So you can just go ask one of them and they're way better at that than I am. And so, you know, kind...

...of getting those people sort of through through the filter and filtering those people out, and then it was the third type of person that I tried to filter out over time. So there's other there's this other thing where there's I feel really bad. Like I said, there's a lot of people want to participate. There's a lot of people who want to get involved and they just don't have the skills or they don't have the organization, or however you want to put it. So I try to do a certain amount of work where I'm not getting paid. I wouldn't call it pro bono work, but I'm not taking cash up front. I mean most of my clients have to pay cash. I mean my client days are basically over. But in the past my clients it was cash and token compensation. Some people just only they only have equity, and I but I like directionally what they're doing. So I work for equity, which has proven to be not saying that of all of my clients, but some of it has. Like, provably, I've had more equity provably go to zero than tokens. Right, the tokens, there's still some hope somewhere where those equity deals. If they go to zero, they really go to zero. I don't know if that's going to be forever. We haven't really seen the like the mechanism of Tokens go to zero because there's always some community left over. Yeah, it's something with them because because, basically because of hype cycles and like the the the effect that value has with echo chambers like bag holding in this industry exacerbates the hype because, like, really, I bought this. Therefore it needs to succeed. Therefore, I'm endored everything else and just pumping this thing because I'm reliant upon it's succeeding and I don't care about any pails. Right. So, like I've seen, I've seen quality people get a certain amount and then basically lose their ability to be objective about everything else and the thing that they're actually holding because of the fact that they're holding it and they wanted to go up. Yeah, yeah, I think that's I think that's definitely one of the riskier elements of the space. Is Is that? And I don't I think it's worse for like the the the people who are, you know, alliterate, that does lacks the faculties to like suss out scamminess or develop the sense of objectivity that that that isn't directly associated with their personal bubble. Yeah, I mean, I h yeah, I think about different communities that I interact with in different people that I've that I knew and my personal life within got into crypto and trying to figure out, like how did they navigate that, like how did they not end up holding, you know, some token, you know, to the you know, you know way path. The point, and that's another thing that really bothers me, is people don't talk about realized gains. Your point like no, you don't have gains. You have to realize the gains and you have to figure out and then even then again to literacy and sophistication. If you're trying to accumulate Bitcoin, which I think is a perfectly valid pursuit, then you have to realize your gains and bitcoin right, and that's and that's a level of sophistication like that I don't see enough of on crypto twitter. I also heavily filter. But, like you know, when you talk to og Bitcoiners, they don't talk to you about the they literally talked about the price of stuff in Bitcoin, because that's that's there their bitcoin. They've there. They've just much bitcoin. It is the my power by Bitcoin in Bitcoin. Yeah, they've completely transition. They don't think about dollars anymore. And and you know when you have people who are like, Oh, this guy bought, you know, eight thousand dollars worth a Sheb and now he has five hundred million dollars worth a sheep or whatever it is, it's like no, that's the your your Fiat maximalist like yeah, yeah, well, exactly. Like we're talking about Bitcoin maximalism. You know all this stuff and you're over here talking about Fiat maximalism. You need to understand that's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but that's a whole different world. Than what I'm interested in and where I hope that we we get to. I don't think the dollars, I mean I think it is hegemonic, which is very bad. But the the the the mechanisms of the dollar as a Fiat currency. Okay, there's some really bad man it served as a wonderful reference for y people because it is the world reference for most part. Right. So, like, if you, if you, if you have to, if you have to consolidate with those around you around the the buying power of something and the like, the unit of measure for that, the dollar is the is the canonical way to do that, and so that's what people use. They're like, okay, how much is this? Is a dollars, because I understand that metric. And it's very difficult for people to do like...

...what's known as dimensional analysis on all these weird tokens to then redefine their standard of buying power. Like, if you the process of just using Bitcoin as your standard of value and then comparing everything else to that is not easy, like switching or switching over to that, and that's probably the the easiest one across all like all the crypto because that's the largest and most prevalent. So, like, like that concept is very difficult for people in general, and so it's hard for me to because I imagine this world where, like, we go back to the barter system because you no longer have the coincidence of wants problem as we have these decentralized exchange so I can give you whatever you want for the exact price of like whatever you have Ya, and but like that becomes a completely different way of thinking about what you own and what it can do. Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. I didn't right to your point. I think about I think about all of so I personally don't hold a lot of crypto. Vulcanize holds most of the CRYPTO. In case anyone from the IRS is this to legal absolute move? Yeah, it's about my tax returns. So and and vulcanizes liabilities are in dollars. So I think. And so I think in dollars because vulcanized as a j jurisdiction. Yeah, we and we have to pay people, right and and one of the things that is also very fascinating about this space is what quality of developer, and that's not to say I don't mean quality like good or bad, but like there's like, you know, like more like subtle quality. What kind of developer do you get who wants cash? What kind of developer do you want who takes some cash and some crypto? What kind of developer do you get that takes only crypto? You know, those are very different types of people and, depending on what kind of business you're running, maybe unied people who only take cash and you're only offering crypto, well, you're going to have a really hard time. Can You? Can you give what's your experience? And those different there's those different personas. More senior developers who have less crypto experience want dollars. The equivalent developer or engineer who would take crypto is already comfortable, anonymous crypto millionaire, and they won't walk, they don't talk to you. They're like hey, rick, how's it going? I'm not great. You need a jobs, I know, to work forever. Like yeah, so so there those people exist. There are early bitcoin are ideologically driven. That's what they are. They're not, they're not. They're not financially driven, right, and so you can find you can find them and some people are able to persuade them and get them to work on their projects. But, and that's not my personality, I'm I'm I made a decision, probably too young, to be very like a straight shooter and not try to persuade people too much, and so I had to say, look, I want to build this thing, I have these dollars. Do you want dollars? And if people come back and they say that thing is doing a lot of stuff with Eith, maybe I could get some eith to I'll be like yeah, sure, okay, and that's usually how I how I pitch it. And then I and then part of how vulcanized has been able to function as a business is we take traditional engineers, developers and we train them in what we need them to do, as opposed to going out and trying to find a smart contract developer who's literally going to be nearly half the age and charge three to four times as much. And that's in terms of you know, that value. It can be worth it for some businesses, but that's it's not worth it for my business to make that deal. So, yeah, gaining that wisdom may not depends on you, basically your ability to to foster that training, because there aren't a lot of quality educational materials out there to allow people to get there on their own outside of sheer gritin experience. Yep, like I secure him is one of the efforts I think is going to that has potential to be very good on ramp for smart contract auditors. But there's not a lot of like quality, what I would consider traditional academic material to get someone from the traditional world and adapt them into this ecosystem in the short amount of time. So, like, your ability to do that is on you. It's so you're absorbing a lot of that risk of is this developer going to be able to absorb the correct fast enough to not make the standard mistakes that you would you would you would avoid if you hired that expensive half the age cryptoveloper. Yeah, yeah, and so, so we don't do a lot of solidity work. So that's really that...

...helps. That helps enormously. Right. And so when we have done solidity work, I have gone to hire, you know, more more wise people, let's say. I mean I'm a similar vein. I'm for its status. Most of the stuff we do is infrastructure that supports solidity stuff. So, like we're looking for network engineer, said do things like that, right. Yeah, yeah, sure, your systems and scientists and stuff. Yeah, yeah, so, yeah, we're mostly pretty in the weeds looking for go engineers to implement you know, SMT or fork gas. I mean we've done a lot of work in our gath fork and and that's the interesting thing is you can actually bring up an engineer pretty quickly to work on that low level stuff, but then they don't. They're kind of like blind like a normally like if you have an engineer, any engineering, actually mechanical engineering, whatever, you have a test harness, you have a test environment, you have a structure that whatever you're building, you can test it within, and and you, as the builder also, either within your organization or somehow, you are able to create those test harnesses. And one of the things that's been a huge issue for us at Vulcan, eyes in in boots, trapping this sort of core infrastructure type work, is that we literally can't test it. It takes we've we would need to buy like right now, for example, if I'm trying to figure out how to ship like thirtyzero worth of hardware to a developer so that they can have a server so that they can reasonably test some of the things that we're doing with level DB and the full etherium, you know, trous pairabyte database. Well, how do we? How are we able to get those operations done in a week? Well, we spent, you know, thirtyzero building a machine. That machine is sitting in a rack. We only have one of them. How do I how does the development test on that while we're running in production? Oh, I just buy another one and it's like Oh, there in. The reason I'm so cavalier about these numbers is because try running that process in a Wus. It'll cost you twenty eightzero a month. Yeah, so throwing thirtyzeros on hard reasonable machine. Yeah, and that amateurizes. I mean the the the rep you know, it pay it literally pays for itself in two months. So there's it's for so so and again, I'm old enough where I can do that. Where I've I've worked on BARE METAL, I've worked in a Wus, I've built, I've done both. I know where one is good and one is bad. And we're looking at these workflows that we're doing and we're like, well, there's no way we can take this workflow. And you know, I actually, if Hilariously, I'm so familiar with these numbers because we did try to take a batch process, something that we only need to do in theory once, and we and we have been trying to run it in a Wus and it's and it's no, no, it doesn't have anything to do with no disrespect to aws, but it performs horribly in a Wus. We've had to take it to bare metal and we did that. I mean we've been doing that for years and I was just like, okay, well, maybe let's try a WS this one time. Let's not wait to build the hardware this time. Let's because you have to get the part ship, someone has to build them and has to get racked. Not a very good supply chain scenario at this point either. Yeah, top everything else. Yeah, this apply chain. Yeah, the Supply Chin has been mess up for a while, but yeah, it's really bad. So there's all these hurdles and I was like, okay, let's just try a Wus. And then, you know, we looked at it and it's just it's just funny. I mean you literally spend in a month. You've built, you've built, you could have built the machine. So so, yeah, that's I think. Honestly, we're talking about challenges in the blockchain space. That what I'm talking about. Right there is is like is like a it's worse than an elephant in the room. Right, if you look at something like BSC, or you look at Polygon, or you look at Salaana, or there's so many projects we're like in Salana's case, it's sort of the their sort of the exceptional, because what they did is they had a bunch of it experience and so they just sort of said, okay, well, we'll just build this chain as if you're an IT expert. Yeah, and so our solution to everything is throw hardware at it and that's the way it works. Yeah, it's not going to work, in my opinion, but that's the that's that. That's the main goal of for harbor at it. It'd be fine. Yeah, I think. I think it's still long as interesting out of those three, because they I personally, I you know, I respect them. I don't I don't think they're scammers or anything. No, I don't think they're scammers. I just think it's a it's a matter, it's a scaling issue. Of My opinion. You can't. You can go only scale to a certain level because hardware is going to live at you. They'll band with it a lot of ways, but like, yeah, their narrative doesn't really match up with what they've built. In my opinion, and I don't know whose fault that is and maybe I'm wrong, but to me it to your point, it feels like their scalability narrative, their Byzantine fault tolerance narrative,...

...the fact that you have to it all is, like you said, is net is network found and hardware bound. That's not really comparable to eat one or bitcoin. Right, it's not. It's an interesting system worth discussing and worth building, but it's not a decentralized blockchain at all. It's not even a federated blockchain. It's very much a centralized system that requires, you know, peering agreements in order to function. And I love peering agreements. I think they're actually a great example of decentralization and more people in the blockchain space should familiarize themselves with them. But that's not what a certain narrative right. That's not the that's not the ideological narrative that you say when you say like well, I'm in the blockchain space, like actually right, and that I that that maybe change you over time, because it already has changed over time. Yeah, and our awareness of what it mean. Like that's that's kind of interesting, though. Like over time, I'm curious about how we talk about this stuff, if the if the average user just understands better about the system that they're operating on and the underlying trust assumptions that run it. Because, like what we did with Bitcoin was say, like, it's not trustless, we just put our trusts in basically the randomness of the of the shot six function. Yeah, and that's all the trust, all trust is there. That means you don't have to do it, you don't longer need a human for it for these particular things. But then you start getting into all the different proof stick systems, those, those trust assumptions in the machine and the people's that are in the people that run them, are drastically different. And so like, over time, is it being in blockchain is going to mean you're more aware of like we're trust is and how it moves? That's a great question. I mean I think, yes, I think. I think if you're twenty three today and you don't you probably don't use facebook, you probably use instagram a little bit, and you start thinking about trust, or maybe instagram a lot. You use tiptock. You don't start thinking about trust. The blockchain narrative makes a lot of sense, right. This is a very clear compare and contrast. You know, old people use facebook. They get filtered and sends it in all these crazy ways. You want to use a system that doesn't have that same kind of filtering system, where you know in advance who's going to do what when. Yeah, I think a blockchain narrative makes a lot of sense in that regard. Yeah, curious, aw that how like, because, like that's my goal, right, and a lot of this is to make because they that's that's the issue with with blotching in general today is it is a drastically different way in which you interact with value in your life. This like the sit then what we just handed the call. This true. The centralized world, like you know, client server architecture and the APPS that are built on top of it, like has social consequences of forcing you to offload responsibility for convenience and every way, shape or form. And that's how we built the Internet, right. And so when you talk to the average person who use the Internet every day, they're like, I'll just forgot my password button, because that's how everything works, and we built a technology that forces you to not, not be able to think that way, and so we're asking people to use this technology and then saying, well, you can't do that anymore. Like, well, that's how everything works. And so the goal, in my opinion, of a lot of this, like a lot of the applications were building, is to force people to start asking questions of like and take more responsibility back and have emergent like. The emergent social consequences is stronger awareness of what I'm responsible for and the education on how to be responsible for it, because you've been burned and small amounts that don't actually hurt you so that you learned a lesson. Yeah, so my first response to that is, you can't save everybody right now. I think you can. You can have systems that help trind towards absolute specific type of like relationship or a system. It even makes it possible, right. I mean that's my goal. My goal is just to have have it even be possible. Yeah, that's a better way to put it, because right now, if I want to do these things with facebook, if I wanted to, there's so like you I have a hacker background. Was At kid house, you know, hang out with hackers all time. You want to you want certain and also this is also just like an Alan k from computer science sort of history sort of thing present as well. You want a system you can examine, you want assistant that you can inspect and you want a system that you can modify and that that's so like the open source thing, right, like opens open sources, sort of this freedom,...

...the tinker sort of concept. And and when, to your point, when you have a centralized data store like facebook, well, no one can tinker. You know, you can't tinker with that. That's not doesn't work. And so, yeah, I think that in just like when I was a kid and I was fourteen years old and I want to know how the telephones worked. I want to know what every box with wires going into it or out of it, what was in there. I was a Weirdo, you know, nobody else. I had to go drive forty minutes to find somebody else who was interested in doing that, you know. So, like I think that we're building these systems and ultimately a small group of people are going to be concerned about this capability that we've got were granting them that were working so hard to provide them. But that will be, you know, sufficient, right. That'll be enough to change how society works. That will be enough to accomplish our goals. But the vast majority of people are are, you know, someone going to figure out how to build a reset button on top and you know, I forgot my password button on top, and that person's going to get most of the adoption. But they're going to be more competitive, you know, they're going to be able to outcompete the incumbents because those features that we've provided are actually better. You know, it is actually a more operable system, it is actually a better system for the end user, it is a better system for the middleman, it is really a it is a better system for everyone but the incumbents. And so by building those better systems, even if the user, you know, I don't know how how long it will take before end users in mass take responsibility for their for their secrets, you know, their path thing they ever do. Yeah, but but those that want to should have options to do so absolute whatever. It's what I mean like. It's like, and add on to what you're saying, D having the option to do so helps put a little pressure on the people who build the same systems on top to not take too much control. Because, like when everyone if, if you're not if you say, something happens to you based on an application that you're using, you don't like it, you know have options to leave it, then there's no forcing function for that company to change. Yeah, exactly. But the moment you make a bad decision and a portion of your of your community leaves you based on that decision and go somewhere else, then you're much more likely to not make it. Yeah, I think that's true. I think you actually do to see that in the blockchain space right, compared to for as for as little actual business that happens, you do see people join and leave communities based on bad behavior. I mean the I guess, the counter arguments. I think the great sort of case study in that, for better or worse, is ripple. How many generations of people have common left ripple right? I mean people go join ripple there like Oh, it's great, it's awesome, and then like Oh wait, no, it's actually this bizarre weird banking scam. They don't do anything that they talk about. Yeah, and then they and then they leave ripple. You know, as a youth, as a community member, they leave the ripple community. The problem with that is that ripple as an organization is still there and there isn't a group of people like warn other people away. There isn't the incentive. But but you do see people intern exit the ripple community. Of course, I'm sure someone will tweet at me and say I've been in ripple the whole time. I'm I'm on my private jet right now. Rick, you need to shut your mouth. But those are the exceptions. The majority of people who are holding, you know, held xarp, made their money and you know their Fiat maximalist and then they got out and and you know, I wish them the best of luck and but yeah, we do see that in the space. or I mean there's other projects, there's Zombie chains. I mean it's a really interesting phenomena. But people do you do see more exodus, again, for better or worse, in the space than I think you would in like the web to world, because they can, yeah, because they could just and also gives people it helps with on ramping significantly. Is Say, I want to get my mom involved with she's like he's asking a crypto took. Well, let's give you something that's comfortable, more comfortable star with coin base it's hard, it's hard to mess up. You can. It's easy to get your your your bank account in there, so on and so forth, and then, when you're comfortable with this, will start talking about moving it into your own wallet and talking about how to secure that stuff for over really right. And so like having these options that are small steps, incremental steps for regular people, allow us to like, Hey, handhold them in a way that doesn't require me to like just spend every day with my mom talking about crypto and teacher of things. It's all right, play around with us, these are the things you can do here, and when you're ready, we can move it. Yeah, yeah, I I don't. Yeah, I think that's that is a good point, that that the sort of permission listness of...

...the community does provide those good on ramps. I'm waiting for the the so axie infinity might be this actually thing. I'm waiting for a system that people use for some other reason and don't I mean they know that it's crypto based, but it's really you know, that's I think act infinity is going to be a great way to on board a whole group of people that otherwise wouldn't be using blockchains at all and see this really know it's I'm so in the weeds that I don't worry projects. Yeah, yeah, that's so busy working. I have the same problem. Yeah, act infinity is amazing. I mean I haven't looked at it as much as I've wanted to, again because I've been working. But there's this documentary. I watched this twenty five minute little it's, you know, it's an ad. It's not really upsetable done. Yeah, yeah, but it's foot on the thing here. I could shove it up here. Yeah, summer screen. But yeah, it's this sort of this game that you play of Crypto and it's, you know, it's got it's sort of clear pumping nomics built in. But there's like whole villages in in the Philippines where people make their living playing accie infinity and it's I mean it's a it's a play to earn type of situation where like you can sit here and play. It's like it's like being able to play candy crash or something like that, but actually extract your money and like games and and FT's and value for work is something that I'm very, very much interested in because, like the you, you build communities. It's like me give you this, this, this my idealistic pitch of what we're trying to do here, right, and games play a big role under this. I spend time doing something, I'm part of a community, I spend real world effort involves in a community, participating in it, or that be playing a game and leveling up and gathering resources of that game or whatever it is. My ability to then leave that community with the value that I've created and take it elsewhere is amazing. Yeah, right, I can, whether that be reputation, resources, wisdom, experience, whatever, I can leverage the work that I've done in my real life to and then I and then I have I can make choices, I can take some of that lever and pay my bills of heads, like to I can exit community completely, like so that, like, if I re entered, I could no longer I'm not a a state that I'm in and I can bootstrap that. I can take that value in bootstrap starting a new persona in a different community. YEP, so it allows to dachnically change what I want to be focused on in the communities that I care about with like that is somewhat metered by the real effort I put into those communities. Yeah, I mean, that's the use case. So in two thousand and six and earlier, I was in different botting communities for different games and it was that experience that actually so you know, prior to the bitcoin paper being published, I started working on a patent to facilitate exactly what you just described. Like how do I in the patent I give the example of I have a world a sword and world of warcraft to tell you how dated this patent is and I want to take it to second life. How do I do that? How do I take my sword that was created in world of warcraft and have it do something meaningful and second life? How do I take that value from earning that sword in one game and apply it in another? And it's a very blockchain like mechanism, which is how, you know, ultimately, how I ended up in the blockchain space. was trying to solve that that very problem you just described. I've created a bunch of value in a game. How do I get it out? Balance of powers or real, real bitch. They're yeah, well, yeah, it's so in the patent. Again, because you have to appeal to your existing audience. It was a it was a it actually describes web of trust model. It says like a web of trust model might be possible, but instead we're going to use a Priv you know, public key infrastructure, peak traditional PKI. So the the there's a PKI. The developer, the IP holder, creates a PKI, they then designate Servers to actually run the game and then the users also get keys that are registered in the PKI and then Your Game In game transactions or cryptographically signed back and forth, and then at the end of that you get a receipt and then you can take that receipt and show it to another game host, whether that host is in the same game or different game, and then they will accept those items as valid because the...

...signatures are they'll check with the PKI or these Signatures Valid, and then you'll be able to move your items around. That's basically the patent. And Yeah, I said you could do it with like a decentralized PKI in there and you know that. So here we are. Yeah, FT's yeah, and FT's right. So it's funny because I don't you know, I'm not people that call riff. You could chase after people. I mean I made that. I did that as a as an intellectual sort of pursuit. You know, I wanted to turn it into a business, but I quickly learned that that wasn't possible at all and I and I started it out of curiosity. I didn't say, Oh, this is a path to riches. I was really curious about gain protection and then ended up with a patent. That's just sort of a side effect of that process. So I'm really happy to see that there's games like axie infinity and there's a whole genre of them. It's developing a little slower than I then I thought it would. Actually I thought that it would really catch on like wildfire, because I thought that the network effects of different games in are operating in this way would be really big. Like I thought that you could now just run you can sort of disintermediate video game producers. So you know, when you're a game developer, you have to go or I'm sorry, video game publishers, because when you're a game developer you have to go to a publisher and the publisher is like, there's all this friction. It's a whole a convoluted process. But if the publisher just said, like, you know, we interoperate on our chain and you can publish whatever you want if you comply with these rules, then like, people can publish all sorts of games and then, you know, you can easily get users and there's a there's a lot of bits of side games that then blow up to individual games based on the like siating off a portion of that economy. Yeah, exactly, and it's and it's but it's also yeah, and it's very a gualitarian and that, you know, you're all competing for attention, right, you're all games, and the game that, you know, garners more tension in this moment gets more revenue. But at the end of the day, the publisher can just sort of sit back and they don't have to do much of anything and they're able to collect their publisher fees without having to go through all the Rigmar role that that they have to now. And that was sort of my thinking even way back then. And, you know, yeah, so I think that that's still going to happen. I think that. And then another thing that sort of again to tie back to some of our earlier conversation, I realized that finances games and I was like wait, so this actually did happen, because there's defy right, like defy is what I'm describing. Oh, it's just, it's it's just gaming. It's just just you're playing with different rules and you understand the rules and had a find basical game theory on how to maximize your profit or find the local maximum of of interacting with it and do that thing and then taking elsewhere. That's it's just it's each of these different projects slightly tweaks the rules a little bit and says this is and then. So if you're able to understand that, you can probably that's where people are getting rich, is they're able to understand that. Fine things and the amount of automation associated with finding things is much better than traditional finance too. Yeah, yeah, so one way to think about it is if you if you took the average, you know, the average serie, if you took the average Gamer who spent a thousand dollars on their gaming rig with the goal of becoming a professional Gamer, and a thousand dollars isn't that much, and you took that same thousand dollars and you put it into just like spray and pray defy, you know which one of those people would be more successful? Like almost certainly the spray and pray defy guy would have much more to show for that time and money spent as a you know, in terms of profit, than the professional gamer. Now, obviously people prefer professional gaming because of their passion for games, but in terms of opportunity, I mean, you know, we talked a lot of smack about you know, as some people are very critical and defy, but I think ultimately it is it is a significant improvement. Right, we should always strive to be better and do more, but you know, your ability as a as a human on the planet earth, to or I guess really in the Western world, to be more honest about it, take five hundred dollars and make a make a real living from that five hundred dollars is much it's much more possible now with with even even with all the scams. Well, this is something that we've created. This is something that is I is a lesson that Krypto has taught those who have been a part of it. That is a lesson that has never been taught another any other time of the world. That's as far as I understand, and that is thinking like a rich person, actively thinking about what money you have and what work it's capable of doing, and then rebalancing that appropriately based on new information. So like...

...it. The ICO boom probably started a good portion of this, because people were actively thinking about, what value do I have, how is it distributed across my portfolio and how is it working over time, and then thinking about how to then reallocate to maximize the amount of work it was doing, and by work I mean thinking them gains. Yeah, and so that's something that most like. That's a mentality that most rich people have in terms of how do I assigned my value to places that do the work I want done, because they've already satisfied their their financial needs for living right, and so it's started to teach those lessons to people of money does work too, and these are the skills you need to have to think about how to how to do that appropriately and how to navigate that ridiculous world of kind of false narrative, scamminess, in competence, good projects, that that that fecs typically that the spend their time navigating. Yeah, yeah, I think it. Yeah, it has. Democratithe, I think, is the word people like to use. That process absolutely and I think that that is. You know, another thing I say to people every once in a while is when I started working at consensus, I was very, very skeptical of everything that was going on around me. I really didn't understand what was going on. I was very confused and and I left still being pretty confused. And then years, years later, I really started to like certain things start to look because it took it took me because I wasn't encrypt though really at all. Like I said, I had sort of done I was in the hacker seen in like a computer enthusiast. So I knew about all the technology, but I didn't know anything about the community. The first time I interacted with the cryptocommunity was when I met Joe Lubin in November of two thousand and fourteen. I mean that was the first, it's interest, the first person to meet exactly, and so it took me years of interacting, you know, less so with him but also with other people, before I really started to understand what the mentality was, what people were trying to do, why they were trying to do it. And and so there is a lot of people that I still don't agree with. I'm not interested in just making a bunch of money and moving to Puerto Rico. That's not personally interesting to me. I don't find I don't think those people are villains or anything, but it's not what interests me. And and and so and so. For when I first started, I was like looking for the old ladies, right. I was like, where's the old lady that's getting scammed out all their money? That mean? You know, a lot of people see this today and you know it's frustrating from me because the tether narrative is is this in a different disguise. Right. It's like people who rally against tether as opposed to just not hold it right. There's a whole group of people who don't say anything right. They they think all the tethers of scam. So I don't hold it. I'm not talking about those people. Talk about the people that go around and say, Oh, it's Oller's a scam, and they yell it from the mountaintops in the no coiners because they think there's some old lady somewhere being being robbed by tethers. It. No, that's never going to happen. You know, it's never good. The people who are transacting directly in tethers have to have a million dollars of tether to do that. It. Tether doesn't talk to you if you don't have less, if you have less that their demographic yeah, there's no old ladies out here who are like, Oh, I took my hundredzero life savings and put it in tether and then tether went to zero. Everyone I've talked to who holds, who transacts directly with that company is doing millions of dollars a day or, you know, a month or something that they're not. And and yeah, and it's like, I can't, I can't, I can't have a whole lot of sympathy for if those people lose that money. Like it's really it's really hard for me to be like, Oh, this guy, while he was on his yacht, lost two million dollars worth a tether. He should have known better by now. Yeah, it is daily float, okay, like and so it took me years of being in the space before I was in same thing with ICO's. It's like, you know how hard it was to participate in an ICO like it was. There was so much friction, significantly technically challenge. Yeah, there's so much friction on the technical side. So if somehow you're a seventeen year old and you lost fiftyzeros investing in a Niceeo, I'm just shrugging my shoulders. You had to go through so much work to lose that money. You had so much time to stop and think, maybe I shouldn't, you know, sign that transaction, maybe I shouldn't have typed that command line payment command and to death from the command line. You know, it's like you have to do so much stuff. I'm like, there's so many barriers. I just I steven still. I just don't see a lot of and I don't use binance. There's a lot of other tools out there that probably are more user friendly that sort of undermine my article was like that was was the question as like what do we do in those barriers are gone because we're actively working...

...on user experience and making it more streamline for people to do that's everything. I see. A boom happened because we standardize the arc twenty and lowered the barrier of entry for people to just create a token. Yeah, and so like every time we lower those barriers, we have these booms and FT's same thing. We've like we we've rallied around the idea of the R C sevendred and twenty one and the infrastructure associated with moving them around and ever searcher couldn't exist. And so we have the standard, so on and so forth. Right. So every time we do that, and then we make tools that allow people to access them easier than a mask. It's better while it's get better, so on and so forth, and we make places where it's not so expensive, L two's inside chains. Then we keep lowering the barrier and making the experience better, and then that narrative you just gave of this isn't like this, this isn't the old ladies problem becomes less and less of a narrative. That's that's true. Yeah, what what then? That's a great question. I mean, I think, I think by that time, honestly, I think that there'll be a lot of regulated'ltwo's, you know, I think they'll be a lot of roll ups that are a hundred percent, I mean, you know, operated by the beads or completely regulated. And that's what happens when you build things on top of decentralized stuff, as you can add, constraints. Yeah, and so I think that I'm up. I mean I do think that there will be. There hasn't been that, you know, crisis in the space. I was I was hanging out with some good friends of mine last night and they're talking about like year to date, like it was like five hundred and sixty million dollars or something has been lost to defy. Yeah, yeah, something. I think the gause things around five hundred million for two thousand and twenty one two acts, but that was because seven hundred million had been returned. The total stolen was over a billion. So and only in this space did they return most of it. So they can get away with it right. Well, and again the hacker and me and the hacker scene, a lot of these people are high schoolers. You know, a lot of these I keep saying this to people because I think that when you're a certain age it's you forget. But a lot of these twitter nons. The reason there are nons is because their kids and and they their minors and they can't they can't participate in the stuff. They're in high school. They're skipping, they're skip in math, classical, write a solidity contract. So I would prefer them to be normal, because they can participate in this stuff. Yeah, they just don't know they can. Well, or their parents will stop them or a regulator will stop them or whatever. But right Maybean, I agree. I wish we were more open about that, but you just wait for them to turn eighteen or whatever and move on. But yeah, so I think a lot of these hackers, yeah, they weren't. They didn't have the OP set. They're not professional. They're not. They're not professional criminals. Their kids there are college students or high schoolers and then and so they they committed this massive crime, but they're smart enough to know that they don't have a way of getting the money out if people are chasing after them, because they're not professional. That's you know, if professional criminals were really deep in the space, we'd all be ruined. I mean we'd all be everything would be dossed all day. Did you couldn't, you couldn't transact with anything. Everything would be eclipse attacked, everything would be begp hacked all the time. But the but for whatever reason, I mean, thank goodness, I guess even the professionals are saying, okay, well, I'll just make a tenth of what I steal and I'll just go through this sort of path of least resistance with the high school. I'll just I'll just sneak in and pretend to be a high school or with these kids and and I'll make my living that way. And so, in that sense I had never really thought of it in these terms before, but it's makes me very optimistic that that the old lady risk will will continue to be, you know, they robbed my mother, is going to be is going to not happen very often because we do have a very emergent but we have a system of self policing with is the is the narrative going to be, they robbed my mother, but they gave it back and now she knows better. Yeah, yeah, it's that's going to be the standard. Hag like this is this is how you give wisdom, as you steal their money and give them give it back. I mean, I think that's beautiful. I can't, I can't imagine a better honestly, I have a hard time imagining a better world, to be entirely honest. Hey, you can't do that way here. Let me tell you. Why? Yeah, let me show you, because that's the other thing. I mean, I used to be. I'm still very argumentative, but I used to be much more argumentative and and and the reason I stopped is because I realized that people weren't learning anything from arguing with me, you know, me winning an argument. I mean I learned this I was like, you know, seventeen or something. Right, it's like, you know, winning an argument doesn't persuade people that they it's not learning. They're not learning from you verbally abusing them until they agree with you that that's not a method of pedagogy or it's a very poor...

...method. And and so, yeah, you have to show people that you and that's just a human a human trait, and it's frustrating at times, but you have to be willing to beat people up to make your point. I mean, and that's just you know, you have to be. You know, if you're saying, I want you to understand blockchain security, Oh, you don't understand it, well, then this guy over here is going to rob you and then and then you'll understand it, because me trying to explain it to you wasn't wasn't doing anything. And of course you give the explanation, but how much time do you spend arguing people about? You give the explanation and they're like no, you're and you say, okay, well, I'll see you after your robbed, don't I don't want to say I told you so, but I will. Yeah, I'm happy. Yeah, I'd rather not. I rather you just listen to me the first time. But if I have to tell you so, yeah, I'll do that too. And I've helped some people recover funds, and I mean it's an amaze. It's amazing to watch people go through that process of losing funds or having a project go wrong or having something go wrong with in the and then their eyes sort of open up. And Yeah, I mean, on one hand, I mean I guess you know you're a physicist. Right, these aren't nuclear isotopes. Right, we're not about to ignite the atmosphere. Right, this is pretty when it's all said and done, even though some people are harmed, it is relatively low risk. And Yeah, I mean a lot of these crazy, you know, pancake swap hacks. I mean, let him happen, you know. Yeah, I did agree with you, and I guess wrapping up. As there any topic you would have liked to talk about or brought up or discussed that we didn't talk about? I mean, there's a lot of stuff that there's a lot of stuff I want to talk about in the space. I mean I think you want to do it again, we should do another we should do another one and the new year I'll probably have a project to announce, hopefully by that time. And then the other thing is just, yeah, I mean I really want I really want people to start thinking about a multichain world more logically and I want people to, you know, the Sou we've talked about this in the past. The solution to data availability is to hold your own data and and I want people to start really thinking that through more and and building. I mean that's what we're working on, is building systems where users can hold their own data. And I think just getting people into that mentality and if they need this, so I own it. Like yeah, and when you speak so like I want to discuss that a little bit. Thinking about a multichain world exact. A long time ago, bitcoin start of a theium. There was the narrative argument, picture of the future where everything lives on one chain, it's quite clear, regardless of whether'm that that's technically feasible, it's not that. It's that's not the world we're going to live in. Correct is there will be multiple chains and a scenario where a single asset that you own lives across a bunch of them. So that's and you're going to need to be able to navigate that world, figuring out what you own and where it lives and what it's capable of doing based on where it lives and the security associated on where it lives and how to move around. Hopefully we can go tools to help that, but in the meantime it's going to be real hard. And along with that, every time you create this network segmentation, when a call that Yep, there is different data structures that live there that don't give a shit about anything else and that has to live somewhere too and then has to be taken care of and watched and so on and so forth and so like. And then bridges add levels of complexity because those need to be watched, because they have different trust assumptions and so like. Being able to navigate this multichain world is going to be very difficult and the tools required to build them are also very difficult if you would like to make them usable at all. Yeah, that's what we've been working on for the last four years. I mean you kind of anticipated as a very fair as funny. I mean you touched on points that we touch on in our and our materials that were working on. I mean, it's very difficult to how do you manage an asset and a multichain world if you have an asset and it's on three different chains and they have three different block times and they're each sort of sovereign in their own right, like there is it's not like an l two, hull three. It's like they're all l ones, but you have an asset on all of them. What do you what do you do? So, yeah, so that's definitely the technology that that we're working on and the the it's not like a surprise. But what you have to do is you have to take all...

...those different formats of those different chains, convert them into a common format and then have a process for continuously converting them into this common format, processing on the common format and sending data back down to the unique chains. And how do you maintain all that state and remercalization is expensive. So how do you do that? There's no, there's no. I don't think there's any theoretical shortcut to remercalization. It's necessarily an involved process. And so, yeah, how are we going to handle that? I think I think we have an answer at vulcanized. When we have our new name, you'll see. But yeah, we work very closely with protocol labs on doing this. We used, we leverage ipld. We rely heavily, heavily on ipld. It wouldn't be possible without that foundation. We're probably going to end up relying on file coin as well for our long term archival, because it's because it's ipld compatible. Is there is the basically the reamers. That makes sense. Yeah, and and we're going to continue, obviously to support all the other l ones that we work with. But yeah, you have to have a my well, what it is. So my dad's a lawyer and my mom's a librarian. So I think a blot of I was thinking about contracts and smart contracts and the law and code is law and all this stuff. I mean that's all very like sort of like almost like in my DNA. I guess. Is what I'm arguing. And then on the on the data availability side. You know, I talked to my mom about archival stuff when I was a kid, just like a because I was a weird kid. I just asked him about artive. So and I've worked and I've worked in archival data, you know, making sure that, you know, an artists data is available. I was doing this in like two thousand and fourteen, two thousand and fifteen. You know, this guy has all this digital artwork that he's created a photography so, so, he's a photographer. So, but photography cameras are no longer you know, he knew how to archive his film, he didn't know how to archive is hard drives, right and so and so I was working with him on how to do that. How do you archive your hard drives? And people right now in n FT world they're like, well, how do I archive? You know, the artists in the N ft world, because there's a lot of artists, and your visual artists like oh well, I know when I make my prints, I send my prints to the archive. They have that whole work will already sorted out for their physical items and like well, how do I do that with an n ft and that's the direction that they're looking at it from. And it is a data availability is the data availability problem, and then net ability for that matter, like yeah, absolutely as well. Right. And and what happens when you're what do you need to put in the archive? Because the the the crazy thing is you have to put the source code in the Archive. You have to put the compiler in the archive. You have to put a lot of stuff in the archive. You can't just put the the the ipld, the the image ash, like yeah, you can't just throw the hash in your kind of like we're done. You have to put in a whole stack of stuff in the archive and then have people, I mean the real way to do it, which which we will eventually get to in the blockchain space. What will be a while if you have to have people at the Internet archive who actually run the old hardware and update the software to run. You know, they build emulators to run on new hardware so that you can continuously run that old software on on newer and newer hardware. That is that as a fascinating topic. Yes, that I would love to dive into. Absolutely for sure, because I worry and part of the discussion I think we should have this, maybe, but off, you know, off show, later episode whatever. Is Resources required to do this type of stuff and that becoming a barrier venture in itself. Yeah, I mean I think, well, we can keep it low for a long time and I think I've seen enough touch generations where I think that it'll be a barrier for certain people, but it won't. Other people will make their money addressing that problem. Yeah, there's definitely like that's infrastructures a service. Yeah, and cloud based growth. But when you talk about data ownership and the ability to do so, what does that look like? Because I would you know, you want people to be able to participate at least with modest hardware and then understand the trust connections that they're making with other people based on housing the stuff they can't do themselves. Yeah, so I've been using I try to build a workflow where I used a Micros D Card instead of a ledger right, because no offense to ledger, but they held on to one thousand five hundred and fifty nine upgrade for so long I was getting murdered. I was like if I could just keep my key off line by having it on a micro S D card, I'm in a better position in terms of compatibility, you know, future proofing all...

...this stuff. It's less tooling for Meta mask, right, if Meta mask could just read my private key off of this hard drive that's actually on my phone, or I could take that hard drive and put it in my computer, that sort of thing. And and so I think those sorts of tooling changes are going to happen. And Yeah, and people will have those options, but again we have to build those tools. So that's what we're working on a Vulcan eyes. I know with with with the status you folks are working on similar when I have some things in the in the pipeline that will be announcing a lot next year. Yeah, I'm I'm transitioning into more of a product she'll roll and management role, I guess. So you'll hear a lot about that stuff later, but I'd imagine like, based on what we're doing, it sounds like we're in a very similar vein. So we'll probably talk about that. Yeah, absolutely, being my pleasure. Great. So thanks, come on the show and see on the internets. Thanks for having me. Bye. Bye. I.

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