Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 109 · 2 weeks ago

Hashing It Out Personals: Rick Dudley

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today we'll be talking with Rick Dudley, the president of Vulcanize, Inc. Rick has been around the blockchain space for quite a while in various aspects, and has contributed to a multitude of projects. We're going to dive into as many as we can, as well as what he thinks the future of this ecosystem looks like and what we can do today to help shape it. 

Enjoy! Links: 

- Rick's Twitter: https://twitter.com/AFDudley0

- Vulcanize's Github: https://github.com/vulcanize/

You can watch this interview on YouTube at the link below

https://youtu.be/CZT99WsdSpE

Welcome to hashing it out a podcast,for we talk to the tech, innovators behind block in infrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how peoplebuild this technology. The problems they face along the way come, listenand learn from the best in the business. You can join their ranks, wokin back everybody other hashing outpersonal interview with Rick Dudley from vulcanize up brick hi. Let's dothe Romal thing tell us who you are what you do where you came from surenames, Rick, Dudley, I'm the founder, and you know principal at vulcanize ink primarily what we focus on is mechanismdesign for l ones and for small federated networks. So, like sort oflike prove of steak, federated networks, any kind of l one, we help them to makesure that their mechanisms are incentive aligned and that there isn'tsome opportunity for one of the users of the system to really exploit andtake advantage of the system related to that work. We also do software development, so we managed theearly part of Eipe Fifteen, a D, fifty nine, I'm a CO author on that dip. As aresult of that, and we wrote the reference Suplement Tion, which Ibelieve none of it was used, but that was actually what sort of got theconversation going in terms of how to actuallyimplement it. And then we are also vulcanized ink is a core contributor tothe cosmos STK. So we are working on migrating awayfrom I a vl to a sparse, merkle tree storage for theirfor that chain, which is something that's also happening in a verydifferent way. On etherium as well. There's a move to SMT on quote: Unquote,eath, one so yeah. So we and then we also haveour own internal project, which I'll talk about a little more but yeah.VULCANIZE DB is the main product that vulcanize developed and it allows forany individual running an archive node of therium, a Gathar Chive node to generate a third party, verifiableproof of any arbitrary data in a therium. So if you have a list of logs-and you want to generate a proof of that, if you have a list of contractlots- and you want to generate a proof of that- or of course, the moretraditional proofs, eath balances and account states- we can generate proofsfor all of those things and maybe we'll get into it more. But that's a verypowerful tool and I laws you to do almost like magical things in terms of taking a subset of the ethereum dataand converting that into its own blockchain and that's sort of how we'repositioning it in the future. So you'll see that in the later announcement butinteresting, you touched on to two things that I'm relatively fascinatedby which are incredibly important to his in industry. But don't get a lot ofattention. That is the infrastructure like difficulties and infrastructureyeah, as well as the mechanism design versus Game Theorylike that, like the crypto economics and how people can like the rules of agiven game and how people can manipulate them, and then thedifficulty of building systems and such the way that, like a small number ofparticipants, can't have overwhelming power over everyone else right andthinking about that from the beginning, which is which is mechanism, designversus manipulating it in during the game, which is game. Theory yeah,that's a great definition. I appreciate you giving that a lot of people, don'teven people in the space. Don't oftentimes bother to explain that and so yeahabsolutely I mean for me. I got into the space to facilitate the right toexit, to sort of allow people to resist a Ramoni influence. I mean that's whathas always been important to me, and so I've always thought about the thefairness in the game. Whatever you know, we're making these games basically solike what is my sense of fairness and that's another thing that actually tookme a really long time. It really took me years of being in the crypto spacebefore I understood, like that. A lot of people in finance are people withfinancial backgrounds, have a consistent sense of fairness amongstthemselves. That is very different from like mine, which is also different from,like your average person Aman, your average Americans sense of fairness.You know finance people screw each...

...other over all the time and they jumpback in the ring and they go at it again and and they think it's it's.It's like a they're just based on the like a hard assumptionlike axiomatic, that, like it's a zero some game and that's how you do thingsyeah exactly exactly, but they and they're very competitive people. I meanI used to work sort of coincidentally on Wall Street. I wasn't really infinance, strictly speaking, but the company had reasons to be on WallStreet, and you know when you're walking down the streets there, I'm sixfeet tall. I was often times the shortest guy. If I went to get a coffee-or you know- and you know, there's all like college football players and likejust really tall huge people- and it's just that competitiveness and thataggressiveness is rewarded on trading floors. Where again, it is often timesperceived to be zero sum, and I think that is it really zero. Some, I thinkwe designed finance to be zero. Some and business at large is obviously notzero. Some so kin take in a lot of the parts of business that might be zero.Some and we sort of shoved it all into finance where we let all the like. Allthese like rabbit animals, fight it out for the zero sum stuff, and then we tryto take the the you know: net positive stuff. Unfortunately, I think inAmerica we sort of abandoned the treatment of the net positive, but we try to separate that out and I thinkthat's just sort of an emergent thing right. I don't think anyone designedthat, but it does seem to be what happened, how how much? What difficultdid he face in the process of trying to help people understand that, like yousaid you do like I of volcanism as a lot of consulting you've, helped with alot of these early projects and specifically in mechanism design and trying to makesure like what do you want system to do? Who Do you want the players to be andhow much influence can they have and how do they gain it like what type oflike? What's your experience in these conversations as you're building thesethings with with clients yeah, so there's a lot of different experiences,one experience. Well, there's three three major points: I'm going to bringup one a lot of people just have no idea what a block chain is or what itdoes. It's just a buzz word, someone told them they should add one so earlyon. I spent a lot of time convincing people that they don't need a blockchain and re'lly going through that process with them being like. Well, youactually don't even have if you only have two parties and your sister toentity types in your system like a buyer and a seller, then usually excuseme, like google edwards like or add, since whichever one it is, i don't knowbut like in those market places. Well, that's actually an interestingexamp. Well, okay, let's imagine for a minute that google actually worked theway they claim it works. Where there is an auctioneer, a buyer of ads in aseller of ads, the auctioneer is supposed to be neutral and the buyersand silas either have symmetry or they don't, and so because you're thatsystem sort of is going to naturally move in a direction that doesn't reallyneed a quote. Unquote doesn't really need a blockchain. Now he was whereasactually, this is a great example. I didn't even realize this now. Thereason that sort of ad market plays would need a blockchain is because ohwait, it turns out that google is triple dipping. Google is on all sidesof that market. So if you're trying to compete fairly against the auctioneerin an option, you're going to have a bad time right, there's the auctioneeris just going to stop you every time to go in a casino, like the house alwayswins at you. My human yeah no tells you that that they're going to that they'regoing to take all your money. They tell you that right when you show up, googlehas been not exactly forthright. It was the fact that that they're on all sidesof that market place so so you're in that mark, and maybe theyweren't at the beginning right. Maybe when those market places started, theyweren't as active as a participant on the on the buying of ad side, forexample, but over time they became more and more significant in that in thatpart in that role and it skewed the whole system and that's why you need ablockchain is because you, if you set up your system- and you know oh, thisauctioneer is going to have too much power, but the so like. Imagine ifyou're starting that out, if you're starting that out as a company- and youhave no money and you're just some plain old company and you're trying toget ads from all these big people like facebook or coca cole or whatever youwould say, look i'm going to make this fair market place. There's three of usthere's i'm going to i'm going to federate this auctioneer service, soyou get a cut, so coke can be an option er. Sometimes you know facebook can be an auctioneer,sometimes i'll be an auctioneer. Sometimes that way we can't cheat eachother and we'll all you know basically you'll say: okay, coke! Maybe me andfacebook cheat you every time we run an auction, but when youu run your ownauctions, you cheat us and everything...

...balances out and we all run theauctions one third of the time, and that's basically i mean that's that'swhat i just described like ninety five percent of the block chains orsomething i'm trying to like, because i've always how i've explained this to variouspeople over the years has changed more or less. I guess maybe it dependson the audience and maybe my ability to structure it in a better metaphor, butit's like i try to explain it in the perspective of setting up a system so that you limitthe like. You are very clear about thepower distribution in the beginning of the end of individual participants, solike basically like how much influence any participant can have in the verybeginning and then the dynamics of the systemthat limit their ability to gain power over time, yeah, right and so like in away, because i would i've railed against this. I think that the majorityof the problems we have in today's you know big tech companies come from anemergent property that just wasn't thought about in the beginning, andthat's mostly based on like how you build applications which emerge intocentralizing a tremendous man of data and then the ability to minipa that,because they have it and they have, they have to be good custodians of it.So they're very, very keen on understanding what it is and then theyrealize like. Oh, we can make money off this and not what we set out to do absolutely and so like it's so like the.What we're doing now is being very cognizant of potential emergent such scenarios suchthat we don't end up in exact sansone. We are today, and that is like allright. So how do we set it up so that it's fair today and then? How do we setthe dynamics of this system of such that? It doesn't end up in the same waywere like one person has control of everything and no one can say anythingabout it. Yeah, that's absolutely right! I mean that is absolutely what we'redoing i mean to me, i mean i use sort of more depends again. It depends on theaudience, but it comes on physics background. So it all just kind of itall just kind of merges into like multi variat, optimization, yeah yeah norother yeah hill. Climbing is what we use in computer science. You know you know trying to find the global mactema, but yeah yeah. I said you know resistingtetrameric influence right like i don't want this, because that's basically imean facebook literally has air balloons flying over parts of africa sothat they can send them quote unquote, free internet, but the the criteriathat that actually, i don't know if facebook uses air balloons but, howeverthey're distributing their free, they do it in exchange, for thosepeople only have internet access. If they have a facebook account i mean.Can you that's like when you think about hegremont ic influence it's hardto imagine in a modern era, something more you know non community based than thatthere's a person from a foreign country deploying billions of dollars to getthis other country citizenry to sign up to you know this very psychoactive business. You know i mean usingfacebook is extremely psychoactive, it's extremely mind altering and it'shard to imagine a more hegemonic influence than that and so yeah we dohave to resist that and and it's it is sort of frustrating to i mean i thinkyou like me- have some interest in the history of computer science, a historyof the internet as a business. You knowhow's the businesses evolved. I mean people had no idea what they had noplan at all and in two thousand and one you know, and so that's how we ended upwith a lot of these businesses is, it was sort of the first. It was the first thing people came upwith as a business and yeah. I think, of course, our first business is goingto be probably a little rough, a little exploitive right and you have to you, know, refine it and and moveforward, but there's just the way money works. The way the centralizing natureof money. There's a lot of resistance to changing things. Once you foundsomething that works. Are we doing the same thing, because itfeels like we're doing the same thing, because, like it's one of those likeokay, when you make it, when you make a innovative technology that thattranscends the boundaries of what you previously have it'll, it gives youmore options. You can do more things, you can create things that have neverbeen created. The first thing people do is to recreate the same shit with thenew technology yeah, and- and that's that's that's what we've seen so far.Is it going to get better or we gonna just snow ball ourselves in the sametrack? Well, it's the same people. So it's the same so because it's thesame people they're doing the same thing and i think as long as you have so in one sense that means itsgenerational. I'm not i'm not. I mean i'm e. Obviously...

...you know black, but i'm not making itinto like a i'm, not going to say it's like old white man, because i don'tthink that's really what it is. I think it's people from the old world are the firstpeople in the new world and they haven't adapted to their arms of thisnew place and new capabilities they're just taking their old mentality andbringing it to a new, a new like mees. What i do, how do i do this here, yeah,yeah and, of course, because again because we accept so this is somethingi used to say. I worked at consensus in two thousand and fifteen and one of thethings that i didn't sometimes my filter is on like duringthis and then other times in life. My filter is off, and so one of the thingsi said at consensus that immediately i realized oh, i like i, should haverealized before i opened my mouth. We we build all these systems like proofof stake systems, and these people are always talking about, like you, said, anew economy, but we ask people to participate by providingdollars and i used to say someone said that to me and right away, i said, butthere's billionaires, how can we have a fair system if the way that you getinto the system is by buying in and there's billionaires, because even if you have millionairesand billionaires, that's too much, you know we could say we're allmillionaires. Well, there's still billionaires. So you look yeah. I didthe bunched distribution ass of early icos and it was like the narrative. Thepopular narrative was like this is the most inclusive thing we've ever had.The distribution is so equal. It's like it's. We've allowed a lot of people tobe a like a participant in these systems and you look at thedistribution analysis. So it's like no me exact they're here, but they have noinfluence yeah, no, we've a lot more people to depict, but it's still like afew people holding all all the value or power for that matter, and and allthose people- and i know some of them and i'm friends with some of them andthey were wealthy. You know they're there from whatever i mean it from awide horay of wealthy backgrounds, a whole o every type of wealth. You canimagine participated in that in that activity,and i and those are the people that pay me. You know those are my patrons likei'm very forthright about. I don't have any problem saying that and but i'mtrying to build systems with that money where i would actually have a chancewhere someone who has i mean and i'm from adecent background, i mean people who, with even less, would have some chanceright. I mean there's a threshold, you have to be literate, a lot of americans,i mean we were on this podcast. You know we're in the crypto base, but whenyou really like go outside like a lot of people, aren't literate like it'snot like. We have a ninety nine percent literacy rate in america like there's.People who, just literally quite frankly, cannot read well enough toparticipate in crypto, but they just don't have that reading comprehensionand there's nothing wrong with that, doesn't make them bad people oranything. But when we're talking about you know, inclusiveness and all thesethings have to realize. There's table stakes. There's a minimum amount thatyou have to bring to the table and part of that is being able to read andidentify. Maybe scann isn't the right word butidentify the risk right. You have to be able to read, what's being published bywhomever by sock puppets by trolls. I honest people and evaluate the riskfrom that, and that requires like a fair amount of intellectualsophistication, maybe you're, uneducated and you have and you'vecultivated that yourself. I mean that happens with a lot of people, but wecan't pretend like that's like a given in humans like it's. It's somethingthat is is frankly, not common and so yeah. I think that i am trying to build more equitablesystems. I think a lot of people in the space are trying to build moreequitable systems. And, frankly, the my patrons are: are these people whoalready have money and some of them want to build more equitable systems?And again this goes back to what i was saying before. Sometimes when i'mtalking to these people, they have finance backgrounds and, and it sort ofturns out, that their sense of fairness and my sense of fairness, don't quitematch up and when they say they want to make a more equitable system, they wantto make a better zero some game or they or they want to give themselves as thehouse a better edge. And so you say what a what is it like when i talk topeople that that was the other filter, so thefirst filter is like okay, you don't need a block chain insert going throughwhy you might need a blockchain and then the other filter was you know, i'm not i'm not making i'm not giving the housea bit a better edge. I'm not that's! Not what i'm does not my business. I'mnot you know, i'm not, i'm not. I don't need to be in them. Hey, i'm, not i'mnot the right person for that these people who are much better than thatbecause it is more like traditional finance, so you can just go. Ask one ofthem and they're way better at that...

...than i am, and so you know kind ofgetting those people sort of through through the filter and filtering thosepeople out and then what was the third type of person that i tried to filterout over time. So there's other there's this otherthing. Where there's, i feel really bad. Like i said, there's a lot of peoplewant to participate. There's a lot of people who want to get involved andthey just don't have the skills or they don't have the organization or, however, you want toput it. So i try to do a certain amount of work where i'm not getting paid. Iwouldn't call it pro bono work, but i'm not taking cash up front i mean most ofmy clients have to pay cash. I mean my client days are basically over, but inthe past my clients it was cash and token compensation and some people,just only they only have equity and and i but i like directionally what they'redoing so. I work for equity, which has proven to be not saying that of all of my clients,but some of it has like provably. I've had more equity provably go to zero,then tokens right. The tokens there's still some hope somewhere where thoseequity deals. If they go to zero, they really go to zero. I don't know ifthat's going to be forever, we haven't really seen the i e. Themechanism of tokens go to zero because there's always some community left overyeah it in citing with them, because because, basically because of ipecacand like the the the effect that value has with echo chambers like bagholding in this industry, exacerbates the hype because likely i bought this.Therefore it needs to succeed. Therefore, i'm indoor everything elseand just pumping this thing, because i'm reliant upon it's succeeding andi'll carnbo. Your thing else right so like i've, seen i've seen qualitypeople get a certain amount and then basically lose their ability to beobjective about everything else and the thing that they're actually holdingbecause of the fact that they're holding it and they wanted to go up.Yeah yeah, i think that's, i think that's definitely one of the riskier elements of the space. Is thatand i don't that i think it's worse for, like the the people who are, you know,literate that that lack the faculties to like suss out skamin ss or develop a sense of objectivity thatthat isn't directly associated with their personal bubble. Yeah i mean i a yeah, i think, about differentcommunities that i interact with and different people that i've that i knewand my personal life with in got into crypto and trying to figure out likehow did they navigate that like? How did they not end up holding you know some token.You know to the you know, you know way path. The point and that'sanother thing that really bothers me. Is people? Don't talk about realizedgains, your point like? No, you don't have gains the e. You have to realizethe games and you have to figure out and then even then again to to literacyand sophistication. If you're trying to accumulate bitcoin, which i think is aperfectly valid pursuit, then you have to realize your gains and bitcoin rightand that's and that's a level of sophistication like that. I don't seeenough of on crypto twitter. I also heavily filter but, like you know, whenyou talk to og bit coiners, they don't talk to you about the. They literallytalked about the price of stuff in bitcoin, because that's that's thetheir big co. They there they thus much be coined. This is in my power. My badcoin is to coin yeah, theyve completely transition. They don't think aboutdollars anymore and- and you know, when you have people who are like. Oh thisguy bought, you know eight sandolas worth of sheep, and now he has fivehundred million dollars worth of sheep or whatever, for it is it's like? No,that's the oryou feo maximalist like yeah yeah, exactly like we're talkingabout bitcoin, maximalism e. You know all this stuff and you're over here.Talking about fiom sm. You need to understand. That's fine, there'snothing wrong with that, but that's a whole different world than what i'minterested in and where i hope that we we get to. I don't think the dollars is.I mean i think it is hegemonic, which is very bad, but the mechanisms of thedollar as a fiat currency. Okay, there's some really bad me. It servedas a wonderful reference for gas people because it is the world reference formost or right so like if you, if you, if you have to, if you have to consolidate with thosearound you around the the buying power of something and like the unit ofmeasure, for that the dollar is the is just a canonical way to do that. And sothat's what people use they're like. Okay, how much is this is o dollars,because i understand that metric and it's very difficult for people i to dolike, what's known as dimensional...

...analysis on all these weird tokens tothen redefine their standard of buying power like if you, the process of justusing bitcoin as your standard of value and then comparing everything else tothat is not easy like switching or switching over to that, and that'sprobably the easiest one across all, like all the cryptal, because it's thelargest and most prevalent so like like that concept, is very difficult forpeople in general, and so it's hard for me to because i imagine this world werelike. We go back to the barter system because you no longer have thecoincidence of wants problem yea as we have these decentralize, so i can giveyou whatever you want for the exact price of like whatever you have and butlike that, becomes a completely different way of thinking about whatyou own and what it can do. A yeah yeah. That's a great point, andi mean right to your point i think about i think about all of so ipersonally don't hold a lot of crypto vulcanize holds most of the crypto incase. Anyone from the irs is lit to legal at legal move. Yeah, it's aboutmy packs returns so and vulcanize liabilities are indollars. So i think- and so i think in dollars, because wokan ze as that, yourjurisdiction, yeah we and we have to pay people right and and one of thethings that is also very fascinating about the space, is what quality of developer and it's notto say. I don't mean quality like good or bad, but, like there's, like youknow like more, like subtle quality. What kind of developer do you get? Whowants cash? What kind of developer do you want? Who takes some cash and somecrypto? What kind of developer do you get that takes only crypto? You knowthose are very different types of people and, depending on what kind ofbusiness you're running, maybe you need people who only take cash and you'reonly offering crypto well you're going to have a really hard time. Can you canyou give? What's your experience in thosedifferent there's, those different personas, more senior developers whohave less crypto experience want dollars. The equivalent developer or engineer who would takecrypto is already come to anonymous, crypto millionaireand they won't walk. They don't talk to you, they're, like hey, rick, how's itgoing i'm like great. Do you need a june? No yeah t work forever like yeah, so so thosepeople exist. There are early bit coin or ideologically, driven that's whatthey are. They're, not they're, not they're, not financially, driven right,and so you can find you can find them and some people are able to persuadethem and get them to work on their projects. But and that's not mypersonality, i'm i made a decision, probably too youngto be very like a straight shooter and not try to persuade people too much,and so i had to say look i want to build this thing. I have these dollars.Do you want dollars and if people come back and they say that thing is doing alot of stuff with eath, maybe i could get some eat to i'll, be like yeah sure,okay and that's usually how how i pitch it and then and then part of howvulcanized has been able to function as a business. Is we take traditionalengineers developers and we train them in what we need them to do, as opposedto going out and trying to find a smart contract developer who's literallygoing to be nearly half the age and charge three to four times as much andthat's in terms of you know that value it can be worth itfor some businesses. But that's it's not worth it for my business to makethat deal so yeah gaining that wisdom may not. It depends on you. Basically,your ability to foster that training, because there aren't a lot of quality educational materials out thereto allow people to get there on their own outside of sheer gritton experience.Yep, like i securum, is one of the efforts i think is going to. That haspotential to be a very good on ramp for smart contract auditors, but there'snot a lot of like quality. What i would consider traditional academic materialto get someone from the traditional world and adapt theminto this ecosystem in the sri short amount of time. So, like your abilityto do, that is on you and so you're, absorbing a lot of that risk of. Isthis developer going to be able to absorb the correct fast enough to notmake the standard mistakes that you would you would you would avoid if youhired that expensive half the age, crypto, velope, yeah, yeah, and so alsowe don'tt do a lot of solidity work. So...

...that's really that helps that helpsenormously right, and so, when we have done solidity work, i have gone tohigher. You know more more wise people, let'ssay i'm a similar vein. I'm for it's status, most of the stuff we do isinfrastructure that supports slitty stuff. So, like we're looking fornetwork engineers and do things like that, right, yeah tribute systems andscientists and stuff yeah yeah, so yeah we're mostly pretty in the weeds.Looking for go engineers to implement. You know smt or fork death. I mean we've done a lot ofwork in our death fork and and that's the interesting thing is. You canactually bring up an engineer pretty quickly to work on that low level stuff,but then they don't they're kind of like blind like a normally like. If youhave an engineer, any engineering, actually mechanical engineering,whatever you have a test harness you have a test environment. You have astructure that whatever you're building you can test it within and and you asthe builder also either within your organization or somehow you are able tocreate those test harnesses and one of the things that's been a huge issue forus at vulcanize in boots. Trapping this sort of core infrastructure type workis that we literally can't test it it takes with. We would need to buylike right now, for example, if i'm trying to figure out how to ship, like thirty thousand asworth of hardware, to a developer, so that they can have a server so thatthey can reasonably test some of the things that we're doing with level dband the full ethereum. You know teas harbit database. Well, how do we? Howare we able to get those operations done in a week? Well, we spent you knowthirty sandolas, building a machine that machine is sitting in a roback. Weonly have one of them. How do i? How does the deo test on thatwhile we're running in production? Oh, i just buy another one, and it's likeoh, and the reason i'm so cavalier about these numbers is because tryrunning that process in aws, it'll cost you twenty eight tsanda a month, yeahso throwing thirty sandolas on hard resale machine yeah, and thatamateurized i mean the rep. You know ay. It literally pays for itself in twomonths, so there it's for so so and again, i'm old enough, where i can dothat where i've worked on bear metal. I've worked in a wus, i've built. I'vedone both i know were one is good and one is bad and we're looking at thesework flows that we're doing and we're like. Well, there's no way we can takethis work flow and you know actually i hilariously i'm so familiar with thesenumbers, because we did try to take a batch process, something that we onlyneed to do in theory once and we and we have been trying to run it in a wus andit's and it's no, no, it doesn't have anything to dowith no disrespect to as but it performs horribly in aws we've had totake it to bear metal, and we did that and 've been doing that for years, andi was just like okay. Well, maybe let's try aws this one time. Let's not waitto build the hardware this time. Let's, because you have to get the part ship,someone has to build them and has to get rapped, not a very good supplychain scenario. This point either yeah top of everything else: yeah the supplychange yeah. This applyin been mess up for a while, but yeah yeah, it's reallybad. So there's all these hurdles, so i was like okay, let's just try a ws andthen you know we looked at it and it's just it's just funny. I mean youliterally spend in a month you've built you've built. You could have built themachine so so yeah. That's! I think, honestly, when we're talking about challenges inthe blockchain space, that what i'm talking about right there is is like islike a it's worse than an elephant in the room right. If you look atsomething like bs or you look at polygon or you look at salona orthere's so many projects where, like in salona's case, it's sort of the theirsort of the exceptional, because what they did is they had a bunch of itexperience, and so they just sort of said. Okay, well we'll just build thischain as if you're, an it expert yep, and so our solution to everything isthrow hardware at it and that's the way it works. Yeah. It's not going to workin my opinion, but that's that that's he that's the main goal of for harborat it. Could i be fine yeah? I think i think it's so long as interesting outof those three, because they i personally you know, i respectthem. I don't think there's scammers or anything. No, i don't think they'rescammers. I just think it's a matter of it's a scaling issue of my opinion. Youcan't you can like only scale to a certain level, because hardware isgoing to limit you to band with in a lot of ways but like yeah, theirnarrative doesn't really match up with what they've built, in my opinion- andi don't know whose fault that is- and maybe i'm wrong, but to me it to yourpoint. It feels like their scale...

...ability narrative their business teamfault, tolerance, narrative. The fact that you have to it all is, like yousaid, is not: is network bound and hardware bound, that's not reallycomparable to eat one or bit coin right. It's not it's an interesting systemworth discussing and worth building, but it's not a decentralized blockchainat all. It's not even a federated blockchain. It's very muchessentialized system that requires you, know paring agreements. In order tofunction, i mean i love parent agreements. I think they're, actually agreat example of decentralization more people in the block train space shouldfamiliarize themselves with them, but that's not what the of a narrativeright? That's not that that's not the ideological narrative that you say whenyou say like well, i'm in the blockchain space like exactly right andthat that that may be changing over time, because it already has changedover time, yeah and our awareness of what it me like. That's that's kind ofinteresting, though, like over time, i'm curious about how we talk aboutthis stuff, if the, if the average user just understands better about thesystem that they're operating on and the underlying trust assumptions thatrun it because, like what we did with big coin, was say like it's thottrustless, we just put our trust in basically the randomness of the shoutvd six function, yeah and that's all the trust. All trust is there. Thatmeans you don't have to do it. You don't long o need a human for it forthese particular things, but then you start getting into all thedifferent stick systems. Tho those trust assumptions in the machine andthe people's and the people that run them are drastically different and solike over time is it being in blockchain is going to mean you're moreaware of like where trust is and how it moves. That's a great question i mean i think.Yes, i think i think, if you're twenty three today and you don't you probablydon't use facebook, you probably use instagram a little bit and you startthinking about trust or maybe use instagram a lot o use tick tack. Youdon't start thinking about trust. The blockchain narrative makes a lot ofsense right. This is a very clear, compare and contrast. You know oldpeople use facebook, they get filtered and censored, and allthese crazy ways you want to use a system that doesn't have that same kindof filtering system where you know in advance who's going to do what, when yeah, i think a block chain narrativemakes a lot of sense in that regard, yeah serious! How that how like, because,like that's my goal right and a lot of this, is to make because that's the issue withwith batching in general. That today is. It is a drastically different way in which you interact with value in your life yeah. This, like the sithee, just had to lookall this trip. The centralized world, like you, know, client serverarchitecture and the apse built on top of it. Like has social consequences of forcing you to offload responsibilityfor convenience in every way chamber form and that's how we built internetright, and so when you talk to the average person to use the internetevery day, they're like i'll, just cook, to forgot my password by me becausethat's how everything works and we built the technology that forces you to not not be able tothink that way, and so we're asking people to use this technology and thenand then saying well like you can't do that any more like. Well, that's howeverything works, and so is a goal. In my opinion, of a lot ofthis, like a lot of the applications were building, is to force people tostart asking questions of like and take more responsibility back and haveemergent like the emergence. Social consequences is stronger awareness of what i'mresponsible for, and the education on, how to be responsiblefor it because you've been burned and small amounts that don't actually hurtyou, so that you learn the lesson yeah. So my first response to that is youcan't save everybody right now, but you can. You can have systems that helptrend towards absolute specific type of like relationship or a system. It evenmakes it possible right, i mean that's my goal. My goal is just to have iteven be possible yeah, that's a better way to put it because right now, if iwant to do these things with facebook, if i wanted to there's so like o, ihave a hacker back. When i was a kid i was, you know, hanging out with happensall the time you want to. You want a certain, andalso this is also just like an allan k from computer science, sort of historysort of thing a present as well. You want assistant, you can examine,you want a system that you can inspect and you want a system that you canmodifye and t t. That's what so like...

...the open source thing right like opensopen sources, sort of this freedom, the tanker sort of concept and- and when toyour point, when you have a centralized data store like facebook, well, no onecan tinker. You know you can't tinker with that. That's not doesn't work andso yeah. I think that in just like, when iwas a kid- and i was fourteen years old and i want to know how the telephone'sworked, i want to know what every box with wires going into it or out of it.What was in there yeah. I was a weirdo. You know nobody else. I have to godrive forty minutes to find somebody else who is interested in doing that.You know so like. I think that we're building these systems and ultimately asmall group of people are going to be concerned about this capability thatthat were granting them that we're working so hard to provide them. Butthat will be you know sufficient right, that'll be enough to change how societyworks. That'll be enough to accomplish our goals, but the vast majority ofpeople are. You know someone going to figure out how to build a reset buttonon top- and you know i forgot my password, but on top and that person isgoing to get most of the adoption but they're going to be more competitive.You know they're going to be able to outcompete the incumbents, becausethose features that we've provided are actually better. You know it isactually a more operable system, it is actually a better system for the indiesor it is a better system, for the middleman is really a. It is a better system for everyone, but theincumbents and so by building those but systems, even ifthe user, you know, i don't know how long it will take before end users in mass, take responsibilityfor their for their secrets. You know their paoni, they ever do yeah, but butthose that want to should have options to do so and whatever that's what imean like it's a like and like add on to what you're saying d, havingthe option to do so, help us put a little pressure on thepeople who build the same systems on top to not take too much controlbecause like when everyone, if, if you're, not, if you say somethinghappens to you, based on an application that you're using you know like it, youdon't have options to leave. It then there's no forcing function for thatcompany to change yeah. Exactly at the moment, you make a bad decision and aportion of your of your community leaves you based on that decision andgo somewhere else. Then you're much more likely to not make it yeah. Ithink that's true. I think you actually do see that in the blockchain spaceright compared to for as far as little actual business that happens, you dosee people join and leave communities based on bad behavior. I mean, i guess the counter arguments. I thinkthe great sort of case study in that for better or worse is ripple how manygenerations of people have come on left ripple right. I mean people's go,drawing ripples like oh, it's great, it's awesome and they're. Like oh wait.No, it's actually this bizarre, weird banking scam. You don't do anythingthat they talk about and then they and then they leave ripple. You know as ayouth as a community member. They leave the ripple community. The problem withthat is that ripple as an organization is still there and there isn't a groupof people like warning. Other people away there isn't the incentive, but butyou do see, people enter and exit the riple community. Of course, i'm suresomeone will tweet at me and say: i've been in ripple the whole time, i'm onmy private jet right now, rick, you need to shut your mouth, but those arethe exceptions. The majority of people who are holding you know held xr p madetheir money and you know their feat maximalists, and then they got out and-and you know i wish him the best of luck and but yeah. We do see that in the spaceor i mean there's other projects there, zombi chains, i mean it's a reallyinteresting phenomena, but people do you do see more exodus again for betteror worse in this space than i think you would in like the web two world,because i can yeah e thinks just it also gives people it helps with on ramping. Significantlyis say i want to get my mom involved withshe's like he's, ask but crypto like well. Let's give you something: that'scomfortable, more comfortable start with coin base. It's hard it's hard tomess up. You can it's easy to get you your your big account in there so onand so forth, and then, when you're comfortable with this we'll starttalking about moving it into your own wallet and talking about how to securethat stuff, grovelly right and so like having these options that are smallsteps. Incremental steps for regular people allow us to like hand, hold them in a way thatdoesn't require me to like just spend every day with my mom talking aboutcrypto and teach o things, it's a grig play around with this. These are thethings you can do here and when you're ready, we can move it yeah yeah, i idon't yeah. I think that's. That is a...

...good point that that the sort ofpermission listness of the community does provide those good on ramps. I'mwaiting for the the so axy infinity might be thisactually thing. I'm waiting for a system that people use for some otherreason, and don't i mean they know that it's crypto based. But it's really, you know, that's, i think actlyinfinity is going to be a great way to on board a whole group of people thatotherwise wouldn't be using blockchains at all. I see this really. No, it's i'm so inthe weeds that i don't worry projects yeah, that's so busy working. I havethe same problem. Yeah ax infinity is amazing. I mean ihaven't, looked at it as much as i've wanted to again, because i've beenworking but there's this documentary. I watched this twenty five minute little.It's you know it's an ad: it's not really web sexual done, yeah yeah, butit's on the thing here. I can shove it uphere: yeah, shirmers, green, but yeah. It's a sort of this game thatyou play it crypto and it's you know it's got its sort of clear pump, anomics built in but there's like whole villages in the philippines, wherepeople make their living playing. Ax infinity- and it's i mean it's a play to earn type of situation where, like you, cansit here and play, i it's like it's like being able to play. Candy crush orsomething like that, but actually extract your money and like games and nts, and value for work is something that i'mvery, very much interested in because, like that, do you built communitieslike men? The? I is this this my idealistic pitch of what we'retrying to do here right and games play a big role under this. I spend time doing something. I'm a part of a community. I spend realworld effort, involves in a community participating in whether that beplaying a game and leveling up and gathering resources of that game orwhatever it is. My ability to then leave that community with the value that i've created andtake it elsewhere is amazing, yeah right i can whether that be reputation,resources, wisdom, experience whatever i canleverage the work that i've done in my real life to and then and then i have,i can make choices. I can take some of that leverage and pay my bills of headlike to. I can exit the community completely like so that, like if ireentered, i could no longer i'm not at a state that i'm in, and i can bootstrap that i can take that value in bootstrap, starting a new persona in adifferent community, so it allowed to dientical ly change what i want to befocused on in the communities that i care about with like that is somewhatmitered by the real effort i put into those communities yeah, i mean that'sthe use case, so in two thousand and six an earlier, i was in different bodingcommunities for different games, and- and it was that experience thatactually so you know, prior to the bitcoin paper being published, istarted working on a patent to facilitate exactly what you justdescribed like. How do i in the patent? I give the example of i have a world asword and world of warcraft to tell you how dated this patent is, and i want totake it to second life. How do i do that? How do i take my sword that wascreated in world of warcraft and have it do something meaningful and secondlife? How do i take that value from earning that sort in one game andapplied in another, and it's a very block chain like mechanism, which is how you know, ultimately how i ended upin the blockchain space was trying to solve that that very problem justdescribed, i've created a bunch of value in a game. How do i get it out?Balance of power is a real brok bitch. There yeah well yeah, it's so in in thepatent again, because you have to appeal to your existing audience. Itwas. It was a. It actually describes a web of trustmodel. It says, like a web of trust model might be possible, but insteadwe're going to use. You know public key infrastructure, traditional pk, i sothe the there's a pi, the developer. The ip holder creates a pi. They thendesignate servers to actually run the game, and then the users also get keysthat are registered in the ki and then your game in game transactions arecryptographically, signed back and forth, and then, at the end of that youget a receipt and then you can take that receipt and show it to anothergame host, whether that hostt is in the...

...same game or different game, and thenthey will accept those items as valid, because the signatures are they'llcheck with the pk or they sit an feris valid and then you'll be able to moveyour items around. That's basically the patent and yeah. I said you could do it withlike a decentralized pi in there and that you know so here we are yeah, afts, yeah and f ts right. So it'sfunny because i don't you know, i'm not the people, a call rick you could chaseafter people i mean i made that i did that as a as a intellectual sort ofpursuit. You know i wanted to turn it into a business, but i quickly learnedthat that wasn't possible at all, and i and i started it out of curiosity- ididn't say: oh, this is a path to riches. I was really curious about gameprotection and then ended up with a patent. That'sjust sort of a side effect of that process. So i'm really happy to seethat there's games like axe, infinity and there's a whole grana of them. It'sdeveloping a little slower than i than i thought it would. Actually i thoughtthat it would really catch on like wildfire, because i thought that thenetwork effects of different games interoperation in thisway would be really big. Like i thought that you could now just run. You cansort of dis intermediate video game producers, so you know whenyou're a game developer. You have to go or i'm sorry, video game publishers,because when you're a game developer, you have to go to a publisher and thepublisher is like there's all this friction, it's a whole a convoluted process. But if thepublisher just said like you know, we interoperation on our chain and you canpublish whatever you want. If you ca amply with these rules, then likepeople can publish all from to games and then you know you can easily getuserti and there's there's a lot of mince games that then blow up toindividual games based on the like siphon off a portion of that economy,yeah exactly and it's and it's, but it's also yeah and it's very a galataeaand that you know you're all competing for attention right, you're, all gamesand the game that you know. Garner's more attention in this moment gets morerevenue, but at the end of the day the publisher can just sort of sit back andthey don't have to do much of anything and they're able to collect theirpublisher fees without having to go through all the rigamarole that theyhave to now, and that was sort of my thinking even way back then, and you know yeah, so i think that that's still going to happen.I think that and another thing that sort of again to tie back to some of ourearlier conversation. I realized that finances games and i was like wait sothis actually did happen because there's defi right like defi, is whati'm describing o it's. I it's just gaming, it's just just yeah you'replaying with different rules, and you need to understand the rules and had tofind basil gate theory on how to maximizeyour profit or find the moca maximum of of interactingwith it. And do that thing and then take it elsewhere. That's what it'sjust it's each of these different projects, slightly twix the rules a little bitand says this is and then so, if you're able to understand that- and you canprobably that's where people are getting rich- is they're able tounderstand that find things and in the amount of automation associated withfinding things, is much better than traditional finance to yeah yeah. Soone way to think about it is if you, if you took the average, you know theaverage series, if you took the average gainer, who spent a thousand dollars ontheir gaming rig with the goal of becoming a professional gamer and athousand dollars. Isn't that much and you took that same thousand dollars andyou put it into just like spray and prey defi. You know which one of thosepeople would be more successful like almost certainly the spray and praydefy guy would have much more to show for that time and money spent as a youknow, in terms of profit than the professional gamer. Now, obviously,people prefer professional gaming because oftheir passion for games. But in terms of opportunity i mean you know we talka lot of smack about you know, as some people are very critical of defi, but ithink ultimately it is. It is a significant improvement right. Weshould always strive to be better and do more, but you know your ability as aas a human on the planet earth to- or i guess really in the western world to bemore honest about it, take five hundred dollars and make up make a real livingfrom that five hundred dollars is much it's much more possible now with with,even even with all the scams. Well, this is something that we've created.This is something that is. I is a lesson that crypto has taught thosewho have been a part of it. That is a lesson that has never been taught ofanother any other time of the world. As far as i understand- and that is thinking like a rich person actively thinking about what money youhave and what work it's capable of doing and then rebalancing thatappropriately, based on new information,...

...so like the ico boom, probably started a goodportion of this, because people were actively thinking about what value do i have. How was it distributed across myportfolio and how was it working over time and then thinking about how tothen reallocate to maximize the amount of work it was doing and by work i meanmaking them gains yeah, and so that's something that most like.That's a mentality that most rich people have. In terms of how do i, aside my value to places that do thework i want done, because they've already satisfied their their financialneeds for living right, and so it's started to teach those lessons topeople of money does work to, and these are the skills you need to have tothink about how to how to do that appropriately and had to navigate thatridiculous world of kind of false neritinae in competence. Goodprojects that that that vcs, typically that the spender time navigating yeahyeah, i think it yeah it has democratized, as is the word peoplehate, to use that that process absolutely, and i think that that is you knowanother thing i say to people every once in a while is when i startedworking at consensus. I was very, very skeptical of everything that was goingon around me. I really didn't understand what was going on. I wasvery confused and- and i left still being pretty confused and then yearsyears later i really started to like certain thingsstart to put because it took it took me because i wasn't in crypto really atall. Like i said i had sort of done. I was in the hacker scene in like acomputer enthusiasts. I knew about all the technology, but i didn't knowanything about the community. The first time i interacted with the cryptocommunity was when i met joe lubin in november of two thousand, and fourteeni mean that was my first is interesting, first person to meet exactly, and so ittook me years of interacting you know less so with him, but also with otherpeople before i really started to understand what the mentality was, what peoplewere trying to do why they were trying to do it, and- and so there is a lot ofpeople that i still don't agree with- i'm not interested in just making abunch of money and moving to puerto rico. That's not personally interestingto me. I don't find, i don't think those people are villains or anything,but it's not what interests me and and so, and so for when i first started,i was like looking for the old ladies right, i was like, where is the oldlady? That's getting scammed out of all their money. That ma you know a lot ofpeople see this today and you know it's frustrating for me, because the tethernarrative is this in a different disguise right. It's like people whorally against tether as opposed to just not hold it right, there's a wholegroup of people who don't say anything right. They think ill. Tell us a scam,so i don't hold it. I'm not talking about those people talk about thepeople that go around and say: oh, i tell there's a scam and they yell itfrom the mountain tops in the now corners because they think there's someold, lady somewhere being being robbed by tever, is like no that's never goingto happen. You know it's never good. The people who are transacting directlyin tethers have to have a million dollars of tother. To do that. Tetherdoesn't talk to you if you don't have less. If you have less es that there,demographic yeah, there's no old. Ladies out here, who are like all itook my hundred and l life savings and put it in tether and until they went tozero everyone. I've talked to who holds who transacts directly with thatcompany is doing millions of dollars a day or you know a month or somethingthey're, not a d and yeah, and it's like. I can't i can't i can't have a wholelot of sympathy for if those people lose that money like it's really it'sreally hard for me to be like. Oh this guy, while he was on his yacht, losttwo million dollars worth of tether. You should have known better by now.Yeah is daily float, okay like, and so it took me years ofbeing in the space before i was like in same thing with icos. It's like youknow how hard it was to participate in an ico like it was. There was so muchfreed to be significantly technically challenged. Yeah there's so muchfriction on the technical side. So if somehow you're a seventeen year old andyou lost fifty and dollars investing in an ico, i'm just shrugging my shoulders.You had to go through so much work to lose that money. You had so much timeto stop and think. Maybe i shouldn't you know sign that transaction. Maybe ishouldn't have typed that command wine payment command into death from thecommand line. You know it's like you have to do so much stuff, i'm likethere's so many barriers. I just i seven still, i just don't see a lot ofa d and i don't use binan, there's a lot of other tools out there thatprobably are more user friendly. That sort of undermine my art. I was like tthat was. The question is like what do...

...we do in those barriers are gonebecause we're actively working on user experience and making it morestreamline for people to do that type of thing. The ice boom happened becausewe standardized the arc twenty and lowered the barrier ventory for peopleto to just create a token yeah, and so like every time we lower those barriers.We have these booms and ft same thing. We've, like we've rallied around theidea of the arc, seven twenty one and the infrastructure associated withmoving them around that inverse. You couldn't exist, and so we had thestandard so on and so forth right. So every time we do that, and then we maketools that allow people to access them easier. Men a mask its better whileit's get better so one and so forth, and we make places and where it's notso expensive. L to is in side chains, then we keep lowering the barrier andmaking the experience better and then that narrative you just gave of this,isn't my this is this: is it the old lady's problem becomes less and less ofa narrative? That's that's true yeah. What, then that's a great question? Imean, i think i think by that time. Honestly, i think that there'll be alot of regulated all twos. You know i think there'll be a lot of roll upsthat are a hundred percent. I mean you know, operated by the feds orcompletely regulated, and it's what happens when you build things on top ofdecentralized stuff, as you can had constraints yeah, and so i think that ii mean i do think that there will be. There hasn't been that you know crisis in the space i was. I was hanging outwith some good friends of mine last night and they were talking about likeyear to date like it was like five hundred and sixty million dollars orsomething has been lost to defy yeah yeah, something i telitha around fivehundred million for two thousand and twenty one to tax,but that was because seven hundred million had been returned. The torn stolen was over a billion so and only in this space did theyreturn most of it, so they can get away with it right well and again, thehacker and me in the hacker scene. A lot of these people are high schoolers.You know a lot of these. I keep saying this to people, because i think thatwhen you're a certain age you forget but a lot of these twitter anons. Thereason there are nons is because they're, kids and and they're minors-and they can't they can't participate in the stuff they're in high schoolthey're skipping their skipping math, classical right, a solidity contract.So i would prefer them to be normal because they can participate in thestuff yeah. They just don't know they can well or their parents will stopthem or a regulator will stop them or whatever. But right maybe i agree. Iwish we were more open about that, but you just wait for them to turn eighteenor whatever and move on, but yeah. So i think a lot of these hackers yeah theyweren't they didn't have the op sec, they're, not profession, they're, notthey're, not professional criminals, their kids. They aren't collegestudents or high schoolers and then- and so they committed this massivecrime, but they're smart enough to know that they don't have a way of gettingthe money out if people are chasing after them because they're notprofessional c. That's you know. If professional criminals were really deepin the space, we'd all be ruined, i mean we'd, all be everything would bedost all day. Then you couldn't you couldn't transact with anything.Everything would be eclipse attacked. Everything would be gp, hacked all thetime but the, but for whatever reason i mean, thank goodness, i guess. Even the professionals are saying: okay,well i'll, just make a tenth of what i steal and i'll just go through thissort of path of least resistance with the high school i'll, just i'll justsneak in and pretend to be a high schooler with these kids and i and i'llmake my living that way, and so in that sense i had never really thought of itin these terms before, but it makes me very optimistic that that the old ladyrisk we will continue to be you know they robbed. My mother isgoing to be, is going to not happen very often because we do have a very emergent, but we have a system of selfpolicing was this is the narrative going to be they rob my mother, butthey gave it back and now she knows better, yeah yeah, it's that's going to be the standardhack like this is. This is how you give wisdom as you steal their money andgive them give it back. I mean, i think, that's beautiful. I can't ican't imagine a better honestly. I have a hard time imagining a better world tobe entirely honest, hey you can't do that way here. Let metell you why yeah, let me show you because that's the other thing i mean iused to be i'm still very argumentative, but i used to be much moreargumentative and- and the reason i stopped is because i realized thatpeople weren't learning anything from arguing with me. You know me winning anargument. I mean i learned this. I was like you know. Seventeen or somethingright is like you know, winning an argument doesn't persuade people thatit's not learning they're, not learning from you verbally abusing them untilthey agree with you o that that's not a...

...method of pedagogy or it's a very poormethod and and so yeah. You have to show people and that's just a human, ahuman trait and it's frustrating at times, but you have to be willing tobeat people up to make your point i mean, and that's just you know you haveto be. You know if you're saying i want you to understand, blockchain security.Oh you don't understand it. Well then, this guy over here is going to rob youand then then you'll understand it, because i need trying to explain it toyou. Wasn't wasn't doing anything and, of course give the explanation. But howmuch time do you spend arguing people about? You give the explanation andthey're like no you're wrong. You say: okay, well, i'll, see you after yourrobbed. Don't i don't want to say i told youyou so, but i will yeah i'm happy to yeah i'd rather not i'd. Rather, youlist listen to me the first time, but if i have to tell you so yeah i'll dothat too and i've helped some people recover funds, and i mean it's an amaze. It's amazing towatch people go through that process of losing funds or having a project gowrong or having something go wrong with in the and then their eyes sort of openup and yeah. I mean on one hand i mean, iguess you know you're a physicist right. These aren't nuclear isotopes right,we're not about to ignite the atmosphere right. This is pretty whenit's all said and done. Even though some people are harmed, it isrelatively low risk and yeah. I mean a lot of these crazy. You know pancakeswap hacks, i mean let them happen, you know so yeah. I tend to agree with you and i guess erapping up. Is there any topic? You would have liked to talkabout or brought up or ber discussed that we didn't talk about. I meanthere's a lot of stuff that there's a lot of stuff. I want to talkabout in the space i mean, i think you want to do it again. We should doanother. We should do another one in the new year. I'll probably have aproject to announce, hopefully by that time, and then the other thing is just yeah i mean i really want. I really want people to start thinkingabout a multi ching world more logically, and i want people to you-know the salt we've talked about this in the past. The solution to dataavailability is to hold your own data, and- and i want people to start reallythinking that, through more and and building i mean that's. What we'reworking on is building systems where users can hold their own data and ithink just getting people into that mentality and they need this. So i ownit like it yeah and when you speak so like i want todiscuss that a little bit thinking about a multi chain world exact a long time ago, the coin startof a therium. There was the narrative arguments picture of thefuture where everything lives on one chain. It's quite clear, regardless ofwhether not that's technically feasible. It's not that it's that's not the worldwere going to live in correct is there will be multiple chains and a scenariowhere a single asset that you own lives across a bunch of them so and you're going to need to be ableto navigate that world of figuring out what you own and where it lives, andwhat it's capable of doing, based on, where it lives and the securityassociated on where it lives and how to move around. Hopefully we can buildtools to help that, but in the meantime, it's going to be a real hard and, alongwith that, every time you create this network. Segmentation went to call itthat yep. There is different data structures that live there, that don'tgive a shit about anything else, and that has to live somewhere too andthen has to be taken care of and watched and so on and so forth, and solike and then bridges add the levels ofcomplexity, because those need to be watched because they have differenttrust, eceptin and so like being able to navigate this multi chain. World isgoing to be very difficult and the tools required to build themare also very difficult if you would like to make them usable at all, yeah, that's what we've been working onfor the last four years. I mean you kind of anticipated as a very fairsfunny i mean you touched on points that we touch on in r and our materials thatwe're working on. I mean it's very difficult to how do you manage an assetin a multi chain world if you have an asset and it's on three differentchains and they have three different block times and they're each sort ofsovereign in their own right like there? Is it's not like an l, one, l, two d,three, it's like they're, all l ones, but you have an asset on all of them.What do you? What do you do so yeah? So that's definitely the technology thatthat we're working on and the it's not...

...like a surprise. But what you have todo is you have to take all those different formats of those differentchains, convert them into a common format and then have a process forcontinuously converting them into this common format, processing on the commonformat and sending data back down to the unique chains, and how do youmaintain all that state and re mercal ization is expensive? How howdo you do that? There's? No there's! No! I don't think there's any theoretical shortcut to remercis ation, it'snecessarily an involved process and so yeah. How are we going to handle that?I think i think we have an answer at vulcanis when we have our new nameyou'll see but yeah. We work very close to a protocol labs. In doing this, weuse we leverage ipl. We rely heavily heavily on ipl. It wouldn't bepossible without that foundation, we're probably going to end up relyingon filchin as well for our or long term archival, because it's because it's ip ldcompatible is the is the basically those mamers that make sense, yeah andand we're going to continue, obviously to support all the other l ones. Thatwe work with but yeah you have to have a well what it is. So my dad's, a lawyerand my mom's a librarian. So i think a lot of i was thinking about contractsand smart contracts and the law and code as law and all this stuff i meanthat's all very, like sort of like almost like in my dna. I guess, is whati'm arguing and then on the on the data availability side. You know i talked tomy mom about archival stuff. When i was a kid just like. Oh you know, because iwas a weird kid i just asked about or so and i've worked and i've worked inarchival data. You know making sure that you know an artist's data isavailable. I was doing this in like twenty fourteen, two thousand andfifteen. You know this. Guy has all this digital art work that he's createda photography, so so he's a photographer. So but photobeam eras areno longer. You know he knew how to archive his film. He didn't know how toarchive his hard drives m right and so, and so i was working with him on on howto do that. How do you archive your hard drives and people right now in nfworld they're like well? How do i archive you know the artist in the ftworld because there's a lot of artists and your visual arts like oh well, iknow when i make my prince, i send my prince to the archive. They have thatwhole work, foot already sort of out for their physical items, and i likewell. How do i do that with an ft and that's the direction that they'relooking at it from, and it is a data availability? It is the dataavailability problem and an ability for that matter like absolutely as wellright and what happens when you're? What do you need to put in the archive?Because the crazy thing is, you have to put the source code in the archive youhave to put the compiler in the archive. You have to put a lot of stuff in thearchive. You can't just put the the the ipl the the image as like yeah, youcan't just throw the hash and your all kind of like we're done. You have toput in a whole stack of stuff in the archive and then have people. I meanthe real way to do it, which, which we will eventually get to in theblockchain space. It all be a while is out to have people at the internetarchive who actually run the old hardware and update the software to run.You know they build emulators to run on new hardware, so that you cancontinuously run that old software on on newer and newer hardware. That is,that is a fascinating topic. Yes, that i would love to dive into absolutelyfor sure, because i worry- and i part of the discussion ithink we should have this. Maybe off you know off, show later episode.Whatever is resources required to do this type of stuff and that becoming abarrier venture in itself? Yeah, i mean, i think: well, we cankeep it low for a long time and i think i've seen enough techener tions, wherei think that it'll be a barrier for certain people, but it won't otherpeople will make their money addressing that problem. Yeah there's definitelylike that's: infrastructures of service, yeah and cloud based growth, but whenyou talk about data ownership and the ability to do so, what does that looklike? Because i would you know you want people to be able to participate atleast with modest hardware and then understand the trust connections that they'remaking with other people based on housing, the stuff they can't dothemselves yeah, so i've been using. I tried to build a workflow where i useda micro sd card instead of a ledger right because no offense to ledger, but they held onto that fifteen, a d fifty nine up grade for so long i was gettingmurdered. I was like if i could just keep my key offline by having it on amico sd card,...

...i'm in a better position in terms ofcompatibility. You know future proofing all this stuff. It's less tooling formeta mask right. If meadow mask could just read my private key off of thishard drive, that's actually on my phone or i could take that hard drive and putit in my computer. That sort of thing- and so i thinkthose sorts of tooling changes are going to happen and yeah and peoplewill have those options. But again we have to build those tools. So that'swhat we're working on at bulkin eyes, i know, what's with with the status yfolks, are working on similar e. I have some things in the in the pipe linethat will be announcing a lot next year, yeah i'm transitioning into more of a product, shell role and management role.I guess so you'll hear a lot about that stuff later, but i'd imagine like basically whatwe're doing it sounds like we're in a very similar vein. So we'll probablytalk about that. Yeah absolutely be my pleasure great. So thanks coron theshow and see on internet thanks for having me bye, bye, a.

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