Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 68 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out #68 - Sergi Delgado - Whatsat and Lightning Network

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Today's episode we return from a holiday break to discuss an instant messaging proof of concept on the Lightning Network called Whatsat with Sergi Delgado from PISA Research. We talk about how it works, its limitations, what could be built from it. This then leads into specifics about the lightning network itself, and then issues with the broader ecosystem. Enjoy!

Links:

Donate to Hashing It Out

Welcome to hashing it out APOTCASK forretalk to the TTECH intevators, behind blocked in intrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds figured at Whyan how peoplefiled this technology. The problems they face along the way come, listenand learn from the best in the business you can join. Teir wrecka spoke backTaset out atolhiatus for holidays. Might do it again during Christmas,we'll see, but for now happy to welcome Sergidelgado fromPieze of research. Shes dcoinly Dev there and do the nomal thing give us aquick run down as to how you got into the space and what piece of researches hi. So I got back into. I got intospace like in two thousand and fifteen um after finishing my undergrad incompeer scient. So I got the opportunity of like starting a masterdegree on Um like well mmlike information tonto on, but my advisore t time was interestedin between. Basically that was like the only thing that was there lik in theday, so I ended up doing my masterseges. You know peculaln topic,likeum, revidition systems tie with Bitonantoon and a led me to swbd on onthe topic Um. My background was more in likenetworking Andsoan, so I wanted to do both like bit middle a stuff, I'm likenetworking, so we ended up like doing a bunch of stuff from like designing newthings on top of it going to like analizing how the between networ works, an cow we canbeTNONYMASONOLA that finished like a year ago, or sowhen I went from Borsna what I used to leave to London Um to join UCL for aPOSAG and then I start working with Budty Patumaori M, I'm at saying he waslike trying to s all thes like Pisa Research thing that was trying to solvesome layer to problems in the space, both in Becond anmitram and we well. We've been workingtogether ever since, and we decide to like build a company to give solutionsfor White sours in both in both paces Yeah Av e Y. we've actually had paddy on the show Patrick Cory forthose who don't know on the show. While back to talk about,I want to say it was state channels might have beensomething s, I'm assuming to go to stat channels, if I reber correctly, butyeah this this episode, I've been I work for status, which is a desentialized anonymous messagingplatform E S, one of the things that we do right, but 'cause act, see the theor networkand a recent proof concept came up, which I found intriguing Um was routingH, messages over the lightning network, soit's expanding. I guess the functionality of with thelightning that work currently serves on biccorn or whatever m coins at itsserving 'cause. It's it's CORNAGNOSIC. In theory, Um. I thought it was interesting to includemessages in that M, but I was also because I'm not incredibly adept at how lightning network works like withlike fine gray details, O waner brings someone on a near that person. So firstoff, can you explain a little bit like how the network copology of thelightning network works? I'm sure? So the idea for myunderstanding, a list of how these works is that Um. Do you try to connectwhen you got create notright? The first thing you tried to do is to find a work,necked note and connect to it Um and open a Challeng with it right.So the idea here is that in the lining netword there are like two kinds ofnetworks. You have appear to be a network like in any other beer to beer,and then you have like what the lining net wore is, which is a network ofchanns. So when you woot for a note- and youwant to like Beboo this med word, it's on your interests, you like find a notewhich is well connected in in terms of channels Um, because the idea is thatthen you will be able to use his channels or her channels to riutepayments, for you thogh them. So when you create a channel with thisperson, you can like drontact with him straight away or like use his channels.Tolik M sent payment to othe people...

...that ouven reach through for thesetowns. So it's like almost like A, I won't say, will of trust, but it's ts COSAT it's a network or channels, and if you have the address of oneparticular individual and you may or may not need to open upa channel that person, if there's a couple hops from all F your Xireanactions to get to their person, and so l k a description on the what's at Githab, which all include in the in thedescription notes of the episode as Inda and encrypted onion routed,sistership resistant appeered to peer constint, messaging overlighting. Myassumption here is that all of those adjectives associated with the instantmessaging or because that's what that's, what thelightning network provides, there's nothing there's nothing extra here allhe's doing is adding. He may be adding some additionalencryption to the message itself encrypted with the private key t of thecenter, but the rest of it is just what lightning therer provides that right. MYeah, I mean. Definitely all the adjectives come from like what thelining laguage providing, because what what at is doing at theend of they it'sPi like information on top of aclcs, so that was possible. I think it was likefour or five I mean with some moification of the Borga. We were bringon four or five months ago, because at thetime it used to be that when you were sending a payment, tolaning you're,using what it's called Sphinx Message: ourtings package MHM that acts like theonion routing Bacgat. They use TCOFOR for UNRUNNING, exactly yeah, so um howthey used to to do. It was like Wi you want to like Sena payment for someone in order to like keep someonanlimity onit. You would like pad your your payment with like M, I mean totwoe fixsize right, pick size off twenty hobs in in Tere of like well, the Anspantise better, so like every single hop has like a fix size right and thenSen. Jlan want to. You want other people to know like how many horbs yourpayen has. What d you wold do would be like to pad all that information aftertwenty hoc and you used to use doing with Yoursli. So like no matter howmany hops from the source of ES nation, the package would always be the samesize and you would use riros in every single, like in in every single, like layof, on of the oniom untill, you likeReec, the full size yea. So if we like look at, if you think about it in termsof an Ogin to regardles, see you hade three hopsto get to the definal destination, regardless of what it is. It looks liketwenty hops, but some of those sops are just Zeros exactly exactly I'm seing these it's encrypted likeonubionion or like laer alayer. Someone like watching this from the outsidedoesn't know. There are actal like twenty hot or, like that's bated, withlike any other kind of thing, but um that's how it was originally designed.But, as I was saying a few months ago, they changed that and now the the like I'll say it Um, like the information eats like byallsize, so s fix Iz. An more MHM, so the idea is tha instead of like having topat that with Yort, you can actually add some information into it. Okay, that's where that extrarinformation comes from exactly and they are using that thatspace, to, like add some information about H in this case, like the ChadorHaen, I the message you want to like send from Shorte to destination, or Ididn't like that pudding. That is not with the Earth anmor and so the forkthat he made for whatap is literally just taking that information andtelling it how to extract Um that information approprately for I messging porcall thatyou could et it anypar the yeah, okay, cool yeah, yeah, yeahthingS, im outparnogoahea. The thing is that what whats I it's wht what at I suposed to to aim for it. It's it a pro forControba the Ond of the day. So it's trying to prove that you can actuallyeic this kind of information with it within lcs and then use it for whateveryou want right, one of the most astrayed way or Strait ForwadImplementation is actually a messing messenger up, because what you're likeEmitin in those packages is actually the message o understand right, but youwould be able to use these for like conting distibution like streaming orsomething like that if it's like probebly yeah, so what what e's showing is that there'sinfrastructure here for arbitrary message, delivery and syntivise message,delivery and the obvious the noriginal usecasefor that is instamestic? What I like...

...about that? What I think is this novel?Is that m not novel but Itch Shigen, a problem that I know many other implementations like this face is theINCIVITA inctintivization problem? How do you get people to run notes and howdo you charge for relaying USCES? Otherwise, if, if you don't have thatyou, you have a network built on alterism which won't work right, youend up having just based with t e company and a few many people running the majority of theinfrastructure that routes all the messages which decreases a lot of the annymity and security guarantees. You'Rlooking for in a private routing network, yeah I'll seen that's y. Thisis also a little bit controversial, even though I think Um. It has gonelike way farther away than I I thought at beginning, because the problem withwhatsit these days is that you can use it for free and actually you're usingit for free right now, Um, because the way it is built is that Um, since you cannot charge for routing thes Tay in Laminlining, if you on complete the payment, what theyare doing basicallyis like they send you an Tlc of a secret. You know, but the informationis embedded there anyway right. So then, when you receive that that information,you can actually see the message and you have to like Drob the the payment,because you can actually not relim it Um. So on t e at the end of Thay you're,getting the message across the network but note of the no none of the Hob in the middle isgetting paid. Nor yor are getting anything, but so it's it's like you'redoing it for free, yes, Ik, a sure into doing it for free. So what Wa is then?What is the you look at like of the Demoong website? Each message has anassociated amount of sotociis. What is that hm? Well, you an actually have it so likeyou're, actually paying something to someone, but I I, if that's the case Umto my inesending Atleast, you need to know what secret you're paying to Bu,because the TLC you know they need h Theto, be reveal from the the receivalof the payment, so Um Uniisit ten to get an information if they haven't gonein O in a different way, which I think they have'n you e like a way of likehaving of like Um, knowing what cigarete thatyou have to like pass Tho the to the path to the sores of thepayment, so they CANAC Itin, thece, yll s, and actually, if you go to like theissues, Um Juscas like acknowledge t at thatch like the thesituation right now, even though they are trying to like make it. So you canpay boll the INTERMA aries on like the pone of this nation. If you want to todo it, it's right now e the way I see this,this proof of concept is he's he's, saying: Hey here's a network: It couldbe used for other things, Um. Let's try that and what's Nice about.That is that if you are into instant messaging and want to build a platformoff fat, you don't have to rely on people running infrastructure o forinstant messaging right. People are going to run the infrastructure forrunning a lightning network, which is just a payments, a payment's network,and you are latching one to that. What I'm curious is if this thing becomesends up becoming M, larger and people start using the lightning network for a myriad of activities, because thenetwork is useful for routing messages. Um Does that? Does that help or hinder theoriginal application of just routing payments? Well, I guess it depends on like whatthe amount of flow you got. You got from, like both things right, forfrom,one thing or the other. So if you GAD like the Nedwork over F overflown by likemessages but not payment, and you don't have a proper way of like charging forRelane, then basically hat you have is an newor Pholoso, pan right and theyare trying to avoid these these days. I think one of the really cool thingsabout this proposal is that it has trigger Um, like all the proposal about like how tocharge for routing, even though or even if the payment doesn't go through atthe end. So it's like by having to lirelate this kind of information, I'mactually doing work, so I'm supposed to like be paid for this Um. If you decideto like draw the payment at the end of like Pamin, doesn't go through. Thatdoesn't mean that I haven't done anything or like some things to make ithappen right so um. What I sae is that they are offeringthis kind of stuff or free right now and it's cool but like it can be abusedand paming. This kind of networks is one bik of a problem. I think yeah,it's one of those situations where, if, if it's useful for something and thatuse ends up being abused on he original functionality, it will be abused, andso it definitely points to a serious problem that the lighting network Nanstthe solve is h. How do we pay relayers, even if the like the final destination of thatpacket, gets dropped or there's a...

...problem with it right an is there arethere what kind of current edeviters are areworking to get to that? Well, there are some proposals. Tha, asI was saying, were like shared in the mailing last after, like Whac at wasreleased Um, and I think it was rusty, the one that story and said that he waslike thinking about how to solve this problem for like four years so far- and I mean there's like some proposals butlike none of them is like the wholy Ra of the proposal fight, I think, like Um Ros weve also have like some idea: oHot fo, wbolling Um, it's it's, it's a pretty different problem to Soll. Ithink becausetee. There are like many things in bulk here. Imagine that younow start like charging by routing or forrouring right, but you still havethe problem in lining where sometimes your payments fail fail Alup, so youmay have to try like Dou know, fifting route until you like actually find theproperoporform a payment. If you have to pay for every single of those routes,I mean debending on like what you want to to pay. At the end, all those likefail, routmay May nlike. You may end up paying more for like the fail of thingsthat for the Baymen, you wanted to pay at thevay right yeah, but that could Ithink that could be solved by setting a MAX number of hops. You're willing thatyou're willing to send a message through yeah, locally right and then that canbe all descrided m within the handshake of the note you're connected to of that type of thing, Eminenctat, Um incentivice, I mean, ifyou don't, do it properly. Youcan sentivize you as as a center of thepayment to try to find the shortest pars all the time, because those may be theones with like less I mean for every single Hob, you ad, it's more l morelike for the PAING, the fail right MHM, but if you always use use the shortpaths, then actually your ned is way shorter. So, like you should lik cavesome trail, O in when you're liket children PAS and not only try to likefind the smaller ones, because those re moral ones than to always pass to like the bigcops and so on so like those people can actually like get way. More informationlike tard to icorate. This information to Um mi mean maybe not like being able tolike stray the Anonomae Tho paymine traiht away, but like adding up thisinformation may give them like more knowledge that they should haveabsolutely but um. What I'm saying is that that should be a local configuration 'cause. The way Iunderstand it, routing like lightning network isrounding agnostic that can be mixher match on what the person how the personwants to autemize their personal routing, and if they don't care aboutthat type of thing, then they can be willing to go through just either likeminimum payment. Maximum pops maximum, like you, know, minimum hops and don'tcare about the payment. No things like that could all be set up locally, based on whatever the usecase is for agiven person M. it's just. I. It I is there from I haven't,checked in of th on the Ligting ot work, much in terms of the routing algorithms.I remember there was basically one have they improved it or adding addedoptions on how you find a path through the network to get to wherever you'retrying to go well. Rolting is so routing in Oll,implimendation ta like Ba finding. I think it's different in some of them,so I thing like sealining, an lnd used a modified Dixrolgrym, and I, if I'mnot mistaken, Um eclar uses a star, but I mean don't go ne thati'm, not I'm notreally sure about it, but yea again like parfinding. It's upto you um, but like routing, is so its it's so draing right. So, like you're,the one who has to like build the path once you have found that path in theway you want to to find it. I said as socurious about Um required infrastructure for runningsomething like this m. You still have to run a full Dick coin,though it was lightning on top of it in order to participate lightning, I ecre or or you delegatethat to someone else, an connecto them yes. Well, they are trying to. I getrid of that with, like the whole mitro thing at let Noande, but I thin likenot all the community agrees that that's good idea. Um. I feel like ifyou're running, something like that. My Personal Benlac is that you should berunning your own ote and up trusting these t to anyone else Um and at the n.They I mean it's like Debenng, like the amount of o of challenge and soone. Youhave um not being in charge of like what'sgoing on in then I go like if, like there's a channel closing or likemasing, some some kind of information, maybe ga over, for you right like imaginethat do like mis this pen, the Internet,...

Worl Ou, never length preplied to that.U Co the channel, and you may say them, that's something that that you woulddefinitely don't want to have if you're like a big cup. So my Gaget, like bigCOPATES, that are definitely running their own implementation, alsoroCIMITATION B cops are basically running a fullnode manet, but there's propotals to no have to do that. I'm just thinkingabout what limitations that set on Um potential users of Lov services likethis for instant messaging Um. It should not be this heavy right, yeah,it's a prof of concept right way, but Li Kindof Gigs, a in your Da. You don'tneed to do that. To Send someone a couple of messages right, nonlessunless.Those messengers are incredibly important, even so, like t still quite a bit ofinfrastructure required to do something like that, and so I I'm interested inUm what proposals, if there's either likefundamental limitations on how witway a client you can have to participate insomething like this and what trade offs there are well to participate. Actually,I don't think you need to run the Fhune mail right. I mean you nee theinfrastructure, you need it to be there because you need like the payments wo,Ere Oui. Don't like the message we ather Tan OANTOFOR, but in fear youshould be ae. THRO Drun Days Tho like a a light plane like I'm, a wibeplane orsomething like that with no problem, Um you're, just delegating that trust to afool on somewhere else, exacly or like. Well, I mean it depends right. Youmaybe running your note in your h at your home and then like doing thismessaging through your phone and you dont need to like have all that heavy load in your phone like, and II'm in in tern of Dava M, but yeah I mean you should be able todo this with Clafrgamin Aclare, well, CAACTA, California, but it's different yeah, I'm not coplety sure about it tobe honest, thatjust W weewerk. You see this goinglike an reasonably if this M, if, if you want to expand the usedcases of lighting network outside of just payment channels, mhm Um, bytaking advantage of this kind of extra data future and losing that Patinnerious things wh, what could that possibly go to based on infrastructurelimitations? 'cause people it's hard to get people to run notes if those nosehappen to make the money sure. But as things currently stand, there's not alot of note. You can run these days that actually are profitable. It'smostly just ye just enough to make the thing useful, but I think that is the case, or thathas always been the case with peert network RIGHTM. Imagine like Um torrenting nowith, like uter ansomething like that I mean people were running those and like Um, getting oergetting sage of, like whatever contan you were looking for for freight at the end of the day, ethewere like so based on Althrism, like I think, we've kind of the goal of what we're doing ina lot of ways and the adment of this technology is to find a way to makeinsentovize pte peer networks where, like th, the people who are providingcontent providing services to to deliver that content and an so forthare paid commensurate with Thamount of work that they do based on shrt digitalscarcity, within that that work, whether it Oo coinither an whateversure. I'm not sure we are doing that good of a job honestly like pricingthis properly, because, as you were saying like how many people are runningthise and like getting some ictual profit a profit out of it. I mean I maybe wrong here, but I don't think there's ot many, especially after likeseeing like some of the charge by LMB and so on about like how many payementsthey actually Um rout over like the time that they havein running days,right Um, so regard your reasonal question, I I think you coald actuallydo like contin the suation or something like these. On top of lining. I don'tknow, I that's like the application we ant, you like end up having or not, butlike these kind of politications allow like sending any kind of Dala like through the waits he'll sa it right. The BREM Ican see with is is like praising it populat a as I was saying in the sameway like how would you praise this properly for our messing ye up so likewe are used to like free quote, unquote, messaging Mesin up these dats right?You pay for your Inter intoconnetion, I, the dotall you pay for so like ifyou're goingto use like whatsite or something similar, and you have to payfor it. I think you may need like it Wi, likereally R I mean you may require the privacy benefit it's giving to you Um and you may like strongly need Thoright begot. Otherwise, you are going to use like any other kind of not free,Um solution that gives you similar guarantees. Oh absolutely...

...things that we played around with interms of PA Davise the stuff is bit is having some type of node that mixedmoney passively by routing messages, which then feeds your abilityes toactually use the service. So Y um like by having a node running for a littlebit of time, you're generating the revenue required to use the service,which then makes it seem free. But you have you have a good amount ofguess value flowing appropriatel throughoutthe network. That's hard to do no one's done that right, yea! That's what I mean that I thinkit's I mean the ideaits like really cool and the idea of like being able tolike sustain your own Serber by like Gri, this kind of stuff right, but I don't know to what extent were we'relike ICLLY prising these PROBERLI S I was saying and to me it seems likeLiming these ages. More anauthoristic thing than I mean running Roatingi mean it seems more like an atwasty thing,that's something you get an actual revenue out of and again I would loveto like hear people saying like no, that taks me not true, and I've madelike quite a lot of money out of it B. I mean I, I would love to be wronghere, but I'm not sure to what exent I am see. I see I see it more of aoutside of the alteristic notes, the people who are just doing it as nthrough as enthusiasts there's a business case to running Um ill light.Your note right, 'cause, you want to receive payments for your business.It's useful to be running running a full note to receivethose payments o you have an address for it. That being said, if that's the main actual like motivator to runningsomething, then the messaging layer on top of it could be used for some typeof business, O business communication like 'cause, like the way that I guess Iguess the alternative to this- would be how whisper works whisper isthe the original w messaging protocol. That was a part of the theory Micosystem, which is basically a gossip network that utilizes the same putipernetwork of a serium note, and it was mint so that so that applications builton a therum can talk to each other by sending messages. This is a verysimilar situation. It's just it feels as though Um the routing is much moreoptimized than just op, pure gossip mor evenflood potocol right. It also makes me think I wish I ju tes just like poppin. To mymind, I was like thinking I don' know to what Exi it would be possible or not,but like seems you have to like fad this information anyway right, you haveto like feel those takit with like Zeros Anyway, in order to like not l,how many helps having there Um whet actually seems. A good idea is like touse that to likend any other kind of tar right so like if you can use it to like share whatever of thecontent, because you C oven fill it into the into the packet and then bylike paying someone you actually are able to like. Also send these likeMidadatof, like whatever youare doing I mean my bon here is like you're, notpaying him to send inhim to data you're seninghim the day because you're payinghim right. So if you flip it the other way round, maybe you can like use that,like waste Bundwith to like share something else with him. To be an example, I hearda Sandis makessensor like ve an example F, so I mean I can give you an examplewithin PA withempayment. But like M, my idea is like going for the way with it,but shull say you want to beal you and then I want to like add Um. I know likea pitcture to the two dayment right so like I pay you and then yeworks also. Ibet you because I have to pay you right, but then I'm including I receive withint the payment and atdecid is within the day imterning to you right. So you canactually like Um get that information with the paymentself. It's like a rich text formas for payments, exactly exactly, but then nowimagine that instead of that T, Ey can like share pictures with you at thesame time, in paying you I mean I I don't know why you would like to dosomething like that, but whati. What I'm trying to say here is that sinceyou're sending that information anyway, padit with Zeros, maybe there's not anapplication that you can find where you actually content, voluable informationwith it but vit, interesting 'cause. I just I like.I I'm fascinated with kind of networks how they're righ now, how theywrote messages and then andhow like and th what you can gather from themessages by watching the network and things like fighting, neirwork andwhisper and tour, and things like this do a good job of ocfuscating. A lot ofthe medida Youcan, pull by being a passive listener in the network or evenn, even active participant Um. But it still doesn't quite work in this at thescale it needs to to send off to regular people or like whatI mitit is like. If lightning took off...

Itand, then it had this beautifullyuseful network of passing incentovized messages to people. Then you could useit for a lot of other things, but that traffic is intermixed with the actual,like other different functions right, and so it's that increases thepotential on aninymity set of anybody who's watching that at work to look formessages, because it's mixed with other different uses such as just regularpayments messages so and so forth. That are all you can't. You can't see them,and so it ends up being a much more useful network for the people who aretrying to route M, potentially private information, then just the network.That's dedicated only to routing messages for communication, morepayments, yeah yeah that thatw'll be really nice,because if Youe can no distinguish between like someone sending sendingyou data or someone saying tending new payment, Um then like actually nalizingto trapicals, the etwork will be like way more complicated. I mean you knowthat things that maybe Goin INSO directonor in the other right, but youknow like what's the purpose of that and as I was, as you were saying likethat, Um Increaseot, the E in these case, or or at least like off your cate,like what's going on in the network, which it othat and further more likelightning nework, is agnostic to the coin. As long as the coin can do, orthe network can do various specific things, then it can participate withinthe winting network, MMSO that then further ads a lot of the functionality that youcan do by passing messages within it. But that also means that you can. Imean imagine that you um change, what what we were talking about in in theBioidin the worldly Toyo make you have to be like pay for the routeright and there's like some implementation that decideds it's notto do it. I seems easy, it's supposed to be like impomentation, agnastic orlike Conacasti as long as he's a ut O base currency and has like the properscripts to like buildings, you o you would always like swab these, likemessaging up to whatever going to Thos in sites like Ma the PAAs right there. I'm sorry I'll quit, get that keepgoing with that. So like the idea is like, if you I it doesn't matter whatcorrenty you're earing underneath as long as you can run the lining nelgreenany utiques, owas um like currency, let's say like you cando it in Bitcn, but you could also be able to inl in like Ono like Oher, like bitwing for riht. So let'ssay th now like with Eciteo like padas M in onecurrency, but we don't do it inother, like we. We say: Okay now, like theBakonlinin Netbord, we're going to charge for like a robbit right, yeahbut um in some currents in theeec like Ranteli, without it, without like this kind of Quido, thesekind of like Um, Oh yeah, iome, Ta Right. So then you would be able to like? UUse that kind of like messenge thing up in that in that corrent right, so itwould be like more of a war for you to like use it ino currency that doesn't charge you anything then accurrent to the ExactiChoo Yeu, something it depends on m the use of that currency that doesn'tcharge. It say, for instance, uh like Liktwe'll, just use bick winterlikewide, because that's the August too for liking their work, ely Um, the Quinsays you know what We'e in to charge for this and those who would like tocontinueue the service. A Li lightning light coin says no they're not going tocharge for t. So if you'd like to use the free service, you then relegate Um all of your messageest to go throughanything. That's I guess. Light coin related lightning network messageswhich that could drastically decrease your traffic on the network, woul it not theres aret orset,something that can't be seen by looking at traffic on the network. I mean I e, I I feel like it will workanyweye right because you're I mean the assention a exactly the same you'relike onobroing thes. In the same way, you're ecripting it in everything layer.So like the fact that you Changeis to be paid for it, I mean to be to have to like pay for it or not. Shouldn't have to ch like changeanything in that sense, so I onye had middle Har still wouldn't know thedifference. Yeah it Sou be like that. Yeah, that's Whi, said TAT. May Yours, like you, like running the currencyshoe and like try to do something like that, because then you're like askingfor people to stanyou right, so I gues like eat te Trai between like havingusers and n like having militi year who who are going to like Xpam you, becausethey can l e use your messaginup or whatever you're like billing. On top ofthis? U Piing e information ontoltocs in your Gorentfor Righ, so it's likethe...

...it feels like the cheaper one. Here mayget more usual, but then also more molitias users who ar Wan to try tolike you Su to spand the newor yeah. I foun work. So I feel like it's a TWAIL UF here, Oit's always a trade off yeahthat's. It feel like that's justthe one thing that I've learned of being the SASOR so long as there's somany ridiculous, traid offs like so. Where do you go from your like? What isdo you see this becoming useful? Is it something that people are going to tryand push forort or or are these problems that were that we're showingattaching arbitrary data and building applications baseon on Arbotary Tatoalating network Um not be useful because it opens up a vector for spamuntil at least until you figure out like inappropriate incentivizationscheme, for the notes that are just relaying information? I think it's definitely useful, even ifit's just for like pushing things forward in this sense like how do weactually make sen make sure that, like no one is using the W and so one and soforth? How can we charge for routing instead of like charging per paymentbeing completed, but solike all these questions? Now that where I mean thatpeople wile, like F, trying to figure out anyway, are like more importantbecause, like there's an application that can be used for these kind ofstuff, right, MHM and even be a wone, you can be a a contoralUm. The tuution wone like something different using the same the sameprincipls so like something that was like: Okay, a Tombone woull, have tofix or like take care of. How like cu forthis, because, like at some point, hi, is going to become an issue. Now, it'slike. Oh, these actee, triar, Ori, NI, yeah, exactly Um and again I mean if weWenn lining to be something usedfor more than payment or like to havesomething on touble that can be used for one more than payment. Ther isdefinitely the way to go right, so I think, like there's, no question whether like this is your for or not. Ithink this is definitely useful, but how are we going to use it at theend?I'm not that sure. That's just got to be people making itand using it um at's like it's one of those situations. I think Andreas verbalize, this the most grateally thatI've heard and that is Um. I cul s scaling gracefully the concept of scaling, gracefully likeThereis, that at any point, Um, the capacity of a network will be used Umand what you do is you figure out how it's being used and expand whateverthat current bottlemeck is to increase the capacity of a network and then oncethat increases there will be new use cases that open up to then fill that gap, but once again, that gapwill be filled, and so you find whatever that current Bottlemec isfixed, that so on so forth, and that's t that's how the Internet scaled out toits current capacity right now in a lot of ways, it's the concept offailing like failing, gracefully or scaling gracefully it. It serves thepurpose and when you expand it, you open up new purposes and it servesthose purposes. And then you keep you keep iterating on Thi over and over andover again, and so by increasing the utility of a lighting network, which Ithink is a wonderful idea, a single purpose. Ne Networks are or not as useful as multipurpose thatworks in a lot of ways like it's better to have something that serves a lot ofdifferent usecases than one that just serves one. You open up the door to h what problemsyou need to solve, based on who finds the network useful, like you just said right. The fact thatpeople are trying to do this forces you to look at m the problem ofINSENTAVIZING, the people in the middle if the payment Failsso that way, youcan't spand the network, it it's it's more costly to spand than at work, andif that's the case, then it's not really spale Yeah Yeahi've. Also, who m like seem somepeople like trying to push the leve forward and like try to dio now likechat room space on Tays, like even think about like having taiter orsomething like that, based on like Um, this kind of of a prois appropriate OinJack's recent weight, exactly that' asically. What I wanted to say rigd! Iactually I was reading about this today and then I saw Jack like triaking aboutUm came onning to like have something like the centralize o iael right mm,and then it was like that makes a lotto sense. I mean if we can itlie puttogether all the pieces that may make that work, that wild be amazing, havingsomething like twe over the tentalise Um. It's also Ale dont know like a CIDIor like a Madi area. Totoore right, I think, was it Masterdam h the Sohadthat tried to do something like that and then it was like supercontroversial. Because then I mean I like complete against censorship right.But then, when you have a social metor like not manage by anyonewhatsoever, um like shit is sout o spread and, like...

...people start getting cars on thise kindof stuff, which is definitely no idea so Yi know don't know if iws mass to, Ithink, tat'son had a story. There's a recent one with Um terrorists using it quite a bit that was brought open base.Nougt knows at different Um plotfom out of Chin. I believe, butyeah that's one of those situations ere like. If what do you do about that? If youcreate a tool that provides people, privacy and security, thatpeople will use it for various reasons like humans are going to be humans, sure do we not do it like? Do We, like?That's T, that's a very broad question of. Do we not do it because someone mayuse it we'll use it nofheriously, but also helps a lot of people. Do thingsthat Thi couldn't do that? Need that type of thing yeah I mean I. I woulddefinitely not say that we should do it like it's the same as like, with anykind of like rrn like Becun, for example like shouldn't. We have likeinvented something like that, because people can use it for like maliciousthings. Like sure I mean people are going to use like anything. U, in theirinterests, even if those ere not LNG, with like most of the people thatDoen't matter right so like, I don't think its the tool, the one that doeslike the thin bad thing in this, send it's like the person Whal decisiity inthe way they want to. So I don't think we should like stop progress justbecause, like people can use it in a way, we are not Um Ambitiong, it Um,but I think that applies to like Motir attech these days and like to most ofthe thing aay these days. Yeah, that's more about t an my in my opinion. Youshould build a tool um to be the best. It can be Um. If that's Privatynsecurity is entralization, then it it moves towards the trend of beingimpossible to find out these things. And it's not up to is that ut too, the creater of the tool to be able totell someone else what's going on, because they they literally don't havethat opportunitys to do so. Your knowledge proofs, furthercentralization of power stuff like that, helps so that type of thing, but at theoffsete of that, like it forces you to think about what are the things aroundthe tool that you can now gather start to look at as opposed to using the toolitself right now, o just grab a phone hack. It find ont everything you want.If you can't do that, you have to start looking for a lot of other things that that's where I see a lot of. Iguess that space moving because you're not going to stop the contenual innovation of privacy andsecurity and the technology we use. It also feels like a like mm. How did you say like a got? Amoush game like a porpasoll got an were e. It doesn't matter what you do likesomeone who's going to like find a way of like twenty Fik with it and thenyou're going to fix it and then, like that's, Goinn, be like like that allthe time, so that s that's one of the thats wellEA way. I don't think that, as you were saying, we shouldn't Um. I mean we should build the things to bethe best they can do th they can be because it doesn't matter where you B,someone os going to try to like use it in a complete different way. So yeah, I'm curious to see how this runs out. Ithis tha. This was a different implementation ofa problem that we look at at status. Non, stop right and a lot of otherpeople. Haare trying to solve similar issues is one like I'd, say. The wholespace is trying to solve the Songe Shue how to get people to run nodes in apure oppoer network, yeah, that's not based in alterism. So far, it seems as though it's abusiness case, so people who build businesses on top of the technology endup we're needing to use a note, because they need access that informationwithout trusting someone else mm otherwise you'R, just in enthusiasts oralterist, in a lot of ways or youre minor, which is also a business case ina lot of ways, or it is a business case m an until we fixe that problem, I think, or you just is, that is that IAT goodenough is bu is a business case for running a note that isn't insentifizedgood enough for running peod topeer networks. Or do you need to havesomething? That's insentovized that expands the set of people who actuallyuse it. I think there's Alto side effects thatlike may come with a cost, but it may worth it rigpe. So, like the F, thefact that you're like financially Um like financial free in this sense, likeimagine that, like all all the basiness you do, you do through the Lanein thatwere right. Maybe you're not like breaking, even in terms of like runningyour service N, like H. Having to pay for it like h the face you get byrunning your fervice, but you're gaving financial freedom in that sense, so,like you, don't have to like, have anyone you can like do whatever youwant with your money. So if that at the end of they make you break even it should be enoughor e in a Laner to do it for that matter it again or if it even allows you to doit. In the first place, some people whoaa Aese things they don't have achoice: Yeah Yeah Y Ahbut. I think that...

...that that we should definitely likefactor in that because in in other cases like Um for peer to ber networks,if it's Contin distoution it's like okay, I mean I won't like whatever I'mlike sharing with people, but we actually I'm a m only going tolike Lech for other people, I'm actually going to like share. Why I'msharing right? Do I actually ont Hisroki or not, but in this case, likeOh we're talking about finans now so like maybe like my country has likecomplete clabs and that's like the only way can actually yeah frondig with Um, with the rest of the worlld like buyingLik, whatever I'm trying to Tobesnot O right Um. So I definitely think that H, that should like be factoring withinthe caust of like running thise kind of services. Yeah, we talked about Um, one of the I guess G, a problem withinthe letic network and most or any other network within the space which isinsentivizing people to run nodes or R run noses m that just relay messageswe're talking about lightning network Mithis instence. What other? I guess problems is the implementationand growth of the lighting network facing as it says today. That's that ver question Um. Well, Ifeel like one of the Ma. I don't know if it'slike a problemoot t like UX wells, definitely a problem h that that I haveto say to say, but I think it is because we are used to like a completedifferent thing. We are used to like paying things instantly. Um were usedto like when we went to like pay for something that shouldn't fail becauselike why the Paymad e's going to fail. If we have connection right. U, but I also feel like adoption, is like one of the mainissues and that's not like a a lining, medwork specific thing likethat, like a beacon, bicon Ting or like whatever ye want to talk about like how do we put that out into the world like yourmom O or like your aunt like whoever, like that, it's not in the space usesdainstead of like whatever payment systems they are using. I think that's,like the biggest Um challenged that these kind of Netwarsror facing yeah. I think both of those things youjust said re or Youpicquitus across all this technology, and I I've talked a lot about that Um and war. The other pokass e. do thebicin Po cast in terms of I guess it's it's it's a social change, because n,the way we built the Internet and the way things work and the way you build.Applications on top of the Internet usually is trade off betweenconvenience and security. Earl T it's an offloating of your responsibility tosomething else, so you don't h, no longer have to worry about it andthat's how we've trained ourselves as as a society to think about thetechnology we use, because that's all we've ever had h, tha all the things that were buildingwithin the BLACHENICO system, Turne that on its head and say no, no, noyou're responsible for these things, and because people don't have the skillset or requisite intuition to think about how to be responsible for thisstuff had to handle like digital digital secrets, what it means to like lose things backthings up so on and so forth, because they've always had the ability tooffload that responsibility to someone else. It's it's always going to be anup ill battle, because it's necessarily more it's necessarily different UEX,which can scen as more inconvenient to those who who don't understand that yeah also, I mean we are like buillingthe portal these days w end, we are carring abot, like the Ug, when wearelike iclly designing, I mean the Peris is not there yet right, Um, beginningI's not like it feels like being ever growin. Now we are like talking aboutlike Neu, say and like snor signatures and also like Taprot, and things likethat right and with he ani atoris like it's based on inboses these days, butwe also want to like be able to Ke, send money, withouther, emboys or likeuse, Multipli, p payments and things like that, and then we have to like think aboutlike the Ug. On top of this, like how th the unit is going to interect withthat, like the an user, but then these days when you', like intred with pizza,you o actually care about like how how thes worksit's like for you, you use it.It works uh, what's happening in the middle us like you shouldn't care. WellI mean. Maybe you should care a howl take. You are right, but the normaluser doesn't give adhem about like how that works. It works yeah, but that'sbecause so there's there's multiple players within Um, like traditionalfinance, stack the problem that I see with that is that I'm not able to pickwhich part of that stack. I want to operate in hm...

...with with with bikcoin you can, if Idon't want to use a lighting at work, I'll use Bekcoyn. If I don't want tolose whatever gets built on top of the Linon Atwork, I just lighting network.I can choose based on my own preference, where I'd like to operate based on Um, how I want this financial transactionto go, and that's that's my thing, my that'sthe key innovation of all. This is the fact that I have options on how I'dlike to conduct myself Yeah Thee, a we were saying with trailersbefore Ike there's like a lot of trates withs, because, like um I mean there'sno like recoberboll that we y you re like mention before. If you lose yourkeysy you're done here right. So I my my dad loses his pat. He is email. Bat,like I know, twice a month like three times a month. It's like what is he GOI to do. I kilozuskis Kis,my my cohost, an the dicorn Pagass d, sayssomeone ofhis familys security mechanism for password, like likepassward maintenances, to not remember their password whatsoever, because Ican always click forget my passpord S, type Shit, it just type shit andthen Ou'd never cover it. Later I mean you see, but that's that' alsotha, you exathe away rafl yeah. So this goes like in Thecentr, yoursyou're like saying that it's like it's like social egeernational thing Ifeel like we will get there when people are used like using these sem likethemselves. Lat Ar like were like ar boring to like a worl that has like allthis intovation going on right. There they're not influence R or conditionedto feel the same way we do about theInternet and the technology I use EA yeah, like maybe like Loed, by like tenyears andtay. Oh, that was likeall falling to Oew, but now it works like aturn right. So well, that's Ho Idean happen at somepoint, but again we were trying to like solve the Ango and like Thesigndeporval. At the same time- and I think I mean I don't think- like all thepotial Skuf like had to like deal with that like in a short term like with allthe pressure of like Oh yeah- it's not working, of course Yo'se, not workingperfectly. I mean it's like what eleven years old like litle ildding it yeah, we figuring out how to make it.Of course it doesn't work, beway exactly but YF didn't have survive sofar means that it's actually working. You know like we're not like creatingsomething thats like easy busy to grade we're, trying to like said a differentsounder wit like a complete different set of tradeouts. That brings you likefinancial bridom, and that's something that I mean I's going to take time. I agree. That's quick way to wrapp thisup, m surge, theres. Anything else, you'd like to say that I didn't ask youor something you want to pitch. No, that's! Well! I mean I would say,like that. We are also like building whatch Houer for the laning Nedlarl andit's like another. Well, actually, I should o like said that when you askedme like Onwh, what's one of the challenges that the line in O was likefacing these days, there are like a lot of things that needs well be all rightand we are trying to standaright wesshier like to help the rest of thecommunity h. That also is like someone of ther community that it's also tryingto buil this Um, so we recently like proposed Abolt forwhit hours. So if Youre, taggy and you' would like to like give your Um like opionond Thao, like any kind ofAlvice or whatever feel pree go to the Mainling glace N, like Interro with us,we're like superbollish about this awesome where Oan wher. Do I go to findthat the LINEIG mailing list yea, I put a ton, there's no Um final name yet yeah! THAT'S PESIILY! sthining you forlike mm thanks for having a fun conversation.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (108)