Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 107 · 1 year ago

Hashing It Out Personals: Austin Griffith

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Austin Griffith is a prolific developer who works with the Ethereum Foundation to not only build new decentralized technology, but also teach others how to do the same. He also leads the BuidlGuidl, which is a curated group of Ethereum builders creating products, prototypes, and tutorials with scaffold-eth. Check him out at:

Social Media of Austin Griffith

Social Media of BuidlGuidl

Welcome to hashing it out, a podcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build this technology and the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn from the best in the business so you can join their ranks. Well, we're back hashing it out, but the personal episode doing with Austin Griffiths. As always, I'm your host. Start to Corey Petty. Austin, people know who you are, but tell them who you are builder in the space. I'd like to build tools and give to better tools to developers and educate them and get them started and get them building and get them dangerously close to having a product and a prototype. Aangerously quotes. Yep, and you've been doing that for quite like keeve been doing that for quite a while. Like there's no there's no a gymder for this. This is just US hanging out having a conversation, talking about what's new, what's what we think is happening whatever. So, like you have been building in a myriad of ways ever since, God, when did you get starts? I feel like you've all kind of always been around. It was, well, it was more like two thousand and seventeen, like summer of two thous was in seventeen. I I finally like got a theorem and understood like how cool it was and dove in and learned and then like released my first project, which was like that's just like learning how to make an oracle prototype, and it was garbage and no one cared. And then, and then I went heads down for another few months and I built like this game, galleasst Iohe, and it's like this. I mean it's it would probably be making millions of dollars if I released it right now because of the NFT hide. I was like a game. Or to brew that up if you want. Yeah, like every everything is. It's yeah, I I could share. Are we sharing screens? I could share a screen to it's a game where, like you, it's kind of like a resource management game, similar to like settlers of Catan. It has a lot of settlers of Kitsan vibe to it, but it's all like hand painted and they like painted them on with oil and it took pictures of the ships and then cut them in with with Photoshop. So it tries to feel like this. Yeah, there we go. It tries to feel like this. Let's see if I can send some some Xdie to that account with a burner wallet to let's let's get all the thing. there. Were your finals here. Yes, exactly. But the point here is like this land is all procedurally generated. Everything's on chain. This, this is the this is the Fishmonger, and he wants you to go fishing for filets and then you sell them for copper and copper as an EARC twenty and all the fish or EARC S, and you use commit reveal for for randomness, for catching the fish. And then the boats are nft's and that nft's can own other NFT's where citizens can get on the boat and sail around that. There's a lot of learning here for me. where, when, when a ship sails, you can't do like movement on chain. So so this taught me a lot of things about like where blockchain is useful and where it's not, and kind of a lot of the gotchas of building on a slow, asynchronous database. But one thing here is when you want to move, you can't just like put movement like this person is at Xy and they're moving along right. You just can't do that on an ASINC blockchain. So one of the discoveries was, oh, you send a transaction to put up your sales and then your ship sort of just sails along at some speed and you'll notice that every five seconds or so all these ships kind of move a little right and if you look closely, even the clouds in the background move every five seconds. And that's a block getting mind. So...

...it's like kind of this passive way, like you put up your sales and then you're moving, but you're not actually controlling it. You're it's more like it's more like a vending machine, like an arcade machine, where you hit the button it starts moving your ship for you. And it just enlightened me a lot in a lot of the Gotchas and interesting things about an evm environment. And then after Galleass was I started focusing on tooling and I looked at user experience and we spend a lot of time looking at like Meta transactions and burner wallets. Both of those things were like when you when you pair those things up, you get someone who lands on a site and automatically generates a wallet for them. It's like a session wallet, Right. You don't put billions of dollars in it, but it's okay. We had kind of we've had a lot of conversations about that regarding like where that was going in the underlying security of teaching people this type of stuff previously. So if you're interested in that type of stuff, go look for either hashing it out Austin or Bok whin poddcast. Austin's don't don't. And then so the the the key. There's like Meta transactions allow us a signer to just sign messages and then a relayer to put those on chain, and then the burner wall that allows you just land on the site and have an identity right away, and those those kind of really came together with nifty ink, another project. I made that with a buddy, like we made that. Basically it's like if you have if you have a tablet, you point that tablet at nifty dot ink and you can make an nft. You doodle the NFT and it records you doodling and it signs that recording with your burner wallet. Yeah, here we go, nifty ink. So if you go to like create their that first tab up in the top and then you create some there you go. So you can just like grab a color, you can start drawing, you can kind of like just, yeah, draw about anything, and then it it's going to record your drawing and then it's going to use so you have a burner wall at there in the bottom right. So you have an account already and it's recording you right now and it'll put it up into IPFs and deploy this as an nft. You just need to give it a name and then some limit. There in the in the Ui there. Yeah, there's your wallet. See that you I over to the right there where you have name and limit. Give it a give it a name and maybe make it a like a one of two and FT and send me one or something like that. But this is the process of this is the instant on boarding as an artist. You Land, you do something really interesting on the platform to provide value, and then other people might buy these NFT's from you without you ever having to ever have any eath or any understanding. And then after you earn something, then you're much more likely to be wanting to educate yourself on how to protect that thing. There we go. You just like gaslessly minted an NFT. This is on a side chain, so it's cheaper. It's on x died, but then it upgrades to etherium. You can even scroll down there and you can see the the ownership. Yeah, so see how you have one of so click that mint button, type in Austin Griffith dotyth and hit hit it. This is going to let you gaslessly mint me a copy. Notice, it's doing edens resolution and stuff like that. So that and it's make sure, sketch. Yeah, it's called, Yep, the blocky. It's got a blocky preview, it's got Ns, it's got a Qr code scanner, just a lot of things that you're going to use to build an APP. All of that is built into scaffold and we'll get to scalpel these. That's like having a tooling. What's that? Yeah, it's probably on its way. Oh, yeah, you've got a transaction successful. Yeah, it'll take a second to show up because it's got to like Parse the subgraph and and display there, but it will soon show that I am also an owner. There it is Yep. If you go back to details, you'll see that you and I are the owner. So you you have one of two and I have two of tow and what's that? What's it cost upgrade to main net? Right now there's that big button down there. I can't see it because it's probably a hundred three, six, hundred and sixty six dollars. So well, WHAT'S THE BASE? VI? The baseis at...

...like one hundred and forty seven right now, so one hundred and thirty four courting from mid by. But you you hit that button, then you pay six hundred dollars and this thing shows up an open see and it's a main net in Ft. so everybody to get six walkers. So if you want this for six hundred and sixty six dollars, let me know from the right, because I want to pay for the gas face. That's right. The goal here, the point here, is the on boarding. The onboarding up Hella smooth right. You could have opened up an I absolute, you should have typed in and ifty ink. You could have made something really interesting and you could have earned crypto without knowing even what crypto was at the beginning of that journey. The the key insight is that people will protect something once they earn value, once they earn a narrative behind that account. They're much more interested in learning about what a twelve word seed phrases and how to protect it. If you hit them up front with take this twelve word seed Grays for protect this twelve word seed phrase with all your life. Okay, now, prove to me you can type that twelve word seed phrase back in, or I'm not even going to let you see the APP. Like that's terrible. onboarding. Enter chance that this is what I gated day deal with, and it's like, I don't know, I run this balance. Don't be wrong, I am. You're on here because I deeply care about the worth you're doing trying to make that on boarding experience useful and enticing for people such that they get that like click of like this, this is awesome, I can do this and now I can do more. I'll want to do more and and then maybe it starts to make sense, as value accruls and be whether it with that be monetary or personal or whatever, to then start walking through and introducing the key points of actually securing and maintaining those types of things. But like, like you said, like if we take a look at the onboarding experience of every single APP, including the ones that I work on every day. It's way to the bay adventure is way too difficult for we're going to people to get started, or confusing for that matter. Like I've gone on countless rants on nomenclature, whether it be like the wallet as a Shitty Name. We shouldn't call it a wallet, so on and so forth. Right, like, but like wouldn't. What's your motivation? I okay, let me let me start over here. I usually start the personal interviews with a single question. We kind of already got into it, and that is what do you care about? So I think one of the things I love the most is empowering developers, like giving them a tool and seeing them use it really well. Another thing is is users, like I love having people use the stuff I build and and be delighted by it. Right and so like some kind of mixture of that. Now is kind of my target where I'm building tools for atherium or evm builders to build things and they're kind of my users. But then they'll have users. And the biggest win for me is when someone takes scaffold thee and build something amazing that a bunch of people use and that and that lobby. That's a general question, right, like what you care about, and so that you like building things for people to use and then watching the joy of them using it and then maybe like facilitating them getting that click that you got previously. Like you just you just kind of explained a lot of like the discovery experience with Galass right of like I'm going to build a thing, and all the things you learned across the process of building that thing to completion taught you and helped you get to where you are today. And it seems as though you like creating that experience for other people too. Yeah, why a theorium? Why did choose? Why do you use a theoreum to do this type of stuff? Why not the myriad of other experiential technologies to other to get that like, what was it about this particular thing that made you dedicate your career to like at first it was a technology like had I not like did I went deep down the rabbit hole of Docer, and I love doctor and I love the containerization and I love doing infrastructure and code and it was such a powerful tool for me, and...

I built a piece of software on top of doctor that let people spin up clusters and set up and orchestrate all sorts of stuff and the company that I was working for wouldn't let me open source it. And it was like forty dudes used it and it was amazing and it could have been used by a ton of shops to do a lot of orchestration and scale up and it answered the question from my little company and they used it, but it would have answered the same question for a lot of other places. So I I guess I got burned by that pretty hard, like not having things open source. How we start aligning incentives, how we start figuring out even like when you sit down and you get into a political discussion with someone, it usually ends up with we don't we just don't have the agency to fix that. Like I don't know. I don't know with my little caveman brain how to put change into the world in a way that actually is going to have impact. And for the first time when I discovered a Theorem, it was for the technology and I did, you know, speed run and go deep down the rabbit hole. But there's also community and there's also this like agency. I feel like some of these problems that feel like nebulous and and things that like, I don't think I can solve and just looking at like all my data being stored in facebook and how web to kind of has has has plagued us now. Like at first it was really awesome. It's really nice. I think Dan Feeley has this really Nice tweet about like web one was great because we could all run our own servers and everyone could get to them. Web to was was cool because we we like basically trusted someone else to do that stuff. We learned that not everybody wants to run their own node and we want to be able to trust but if you trust one centralized party, like things don't work out as well. And and and we're using that to kind of think about how web three needs to be. You know, you still need to have lots of people running those nodes, but you need to make it more of a platform where people can deploy things on top of it. So it's my cave man. Braine is just a builder. I don't know how to affect politics. I don't have a ton of agency in that world, but I feel like the community as a whole and the technology as a whole is is is going to sort of meet current politics and current technology in a way that's actually going to like be effective, and I don't know what that looks like at this point. But when I think of funding developers or that problem with open source, why can't I open sources? Why aren't the incentives aligned? I see incentives aligning a lot better on atherium than anywhere I've ever worked before. So again it's like kind of nebulous. I'm still not saying like, but I feel like the platform has the potential to facilitate some of these big, big picture changes that we want to see in the world and I think it's going to start from the ground up and it's going to be like a build up kind of thing. But I just want to be around and make sure everybody has all the tools they can to build those things and I don't know what it's going to look like. Yeah, definitely, certainly a I got along with a lot of that. It's it's the community that allowed me to do it the fuck I wanted and then thank me for it and then re use the things that I did in a way that helped push a narrative that I cared about and a lot of ways. But it's not the only one. And you do the same thing right and so I and something like so, one of our one of our listeners, your colum. They actually all cohost the show. Help me start this thing self sovereign. Here's a pain in the ass, though, and this is kind of what I wanted. I'd like to point out, is that, let's see how I want to put this, re reframing what that kind of story dance set, which is like the walking through Web one through web three, is. I've tried to try and see it as like a constant pendulum shift between Yep, well, gets went too far and but the rest just like exuggerence...

...that humans do whenever they get their hands on a new toy. It's like, Oh, we can give people access to information, let's let's go ham on that. You get all the information and and oh it's kind of difficult. Well, let's substract that away and we're going to abstract it to a point where, like, you don't have to paint, responsible or understand anything, but you get everything. And then we went full clip with that and that's where we that's where we live today, and we're starting to get to the realization, I think so from a societal said point, that anyone a look too far with this like maybe people should have some ownership and responsibility in custodianship of information, such that understand the motivations, in bias and difficulties of doing that job and you mitigate a bit of the like power you give to people who are providing those abstractions, right Google, facebook, whoever, right and in some case. And then once you understand that that play, you can then start to make conscious decisions on where you want to live, like what, what pros and cons you're willing to give up, because you have the information available to make those types of things. But if you're you're introduced to that world, as many of the kids are today, where you've never seen the responsibility and you can't get to the abstraction, but you're just drinking from a fire hose of information that isn't fedded. It's going to be really hard to do and I think what like the decentralized fazation space and in total, is starting to pull that back from the pigeon. I'm granted we're trying to do the exact same thing. And like the early days of Web three or whatever the hell you want to call it, it was decentralize all the things no matter what. Let's see how far we can take that US. And it's like, well, black chain is a good for everything, it's not a past you. Right. And so now I think there needs to be a huge disclaimer there before before I let you go, like there needs to be a huge disclaimer that there's a shitload of greed and and garbage markets happening here that's like fueling a lot of this stuff. Like, yeah, I feel like we have to say that like up front, like maybe even eighty percent of the one garbage green, right, right, and so. But but if you look at that twenty percent, you look at what those people are doing and you look at maybe even like governance structures that are emerging right now, those governance structures and the tools that we use to coordinate between those people might be where governments are in ten years, and so we may be building some of these initial tools and and and learning kind of like by doing and dog fooding where where those tools will be effective and where we'll have problems and how will build better tools. And I can tangent on the notes to safe thing, but I feel like I I cut you off right as you were about to swing for the no, you don't know. Okay, okay. So so to dive into that a little bit more, when one theory is that governance is huge right now as as platforms decentralize, and there's a lot of again, decentralization theater, we've got to say it like you've got to throw the disclaimer out there. A lot of decentralization is BS, a lot of guns in spenser sus right, exactly, exactly, Yep. And and to zoom in on that, it's a lot of time. Just a nose is safe. What we find is a lot of dows and a lot of governance structures are basically just a multisig with the handful of signers and some things have to coordinate, Yep, and some ends, some voting that leads up to that's so you can vote for some signal and then we're getting in this multisig in the take care of it. Let's been off the note and one and Yep, exactly, Yep. So so with that in mind, with that theory in mind, if we want to be able to innovate on governance structures, what we're thinking is let's have it settle to a nose is safe, but let's build you a starter kit where you can innovate at the react level, that the front end level. Basically, you build a front end that is the Dow, that is whatever coordination you're trying to put together, whatever answers the problem of how do we get these twenty people to decide on a thing or whatever, like, how do we get these twenty people to make the right decision? Even better, that can just be in the front end and all those twenty people basically are just signing a message that settles to a nose is safe in the background and and that that saves you...

...years of building these intricate dows that we've seen be built in the last two years, when really all you needed was a multisig and a front end to iterate on to get to the point where, Oh, this, like this is the coordination structure that works. So what we're doing right now is we're pushing hard this this nose is safe starter kit that we just released the scaffold eath. So not only you have the tooling, you have all the stuff that like lets you build a DAPP in ten minutes, but it's going to let you build a Dow in ten minutes going to it's going to let you put any kind of front end in front of some yeah, so if you so, if you go to the branches up there, are right up there, Yep, and you type in nosis, there's going to be a nose is safe. So this is scaffold eath and scalbaled eath is is a dapt template. If you want to get started learning how to build on a theorium scalpal Deze, it is the best place to start. If you Google Eth Dev speed run, you could get the speed run from me of how to like wail through scalpled eeth. But if you're looking to build and prototype some kind of governance structure, check out this nose is safe starter kit. It's basically just a like a vanilla front end that helps you set up a safe here's how many owners you have, here's the threshold and go. But what that could be? Let's just let's just say we're coordinating to decide if a group of thirty of us who've all invested, k how long we feel like we should be, how stable we should be, it's it will call it the stable Dow. All thirty of those people basically just get a front end that says, hey, how how stable are you feeling? Like maybe, maybe, like, you know, like sad face, medium face, happy face, right, and that's all they get. And as a signer, they land on this website and they say maybe, maybe it has some charts on it, maybe some some investing data, I don't know, but it lands there and it says how are you feeling about? Like, how stable are we feeling? Right, and you pick Um. You know, I'm a medium, stable right now. Let's just hold eath. Or maybe I'm maybe I'm sad face. Let's get into stables and be stable right now. And and you're a one of thirty on a signer, on a Multi Sig, but all you're doing is getting in there and signaling the way you feel and you hit go. You get a nice easy front end, you sign a message and you're done. And what that does eventually is that's going to settle, it's going to aggregate all those signatures and it's going to apply them and it's going to be backed by a nose is safe. So you get the power of decentralization, you get the power of a Multi Sig, you get the power of no one person has the vote here, but it's a very simple interface and maybe we're like, okay, we need to add five smiley faces like this. There's not enough, there's not enough granularity there. Or maybe it's like, you know what, no one participated, we didn't have a good enough instead of building out this complicated Dow smart contract and then hiring an auditor and then months later building a front end to test whether or not the stability Dow is going to work, we bang it out in an afternoon and we get everybody to use it and we see if it works or not. And I want to see that happen like over and over and over again. I want to be like the Owaki says, the generator function. I want to be the generator function for those prototypes and tests. Small question, because I think that what I think that process is awesome. Like. How do you see the permanence of these thing? Are they iterative and in a sense that you go upon them? Oh yeah, if since that like you, you like this. This iteration needs improvement. Throw it away, start a new one from scratch. It wouldn't be start from scratch, it be like fork and clone and and adjust right, and it's like and you've built this one open source thing. Maybe someone else needs that stable down in a totally different way. It's not going to be an investing in stables. It's more like how we're feeling about the governance process and it's just like a good feedback or something. So it's just like this forkable example. Right when you when you look at those branches of scaffold, he's there's two hundred and fifty or two hundred and sixty right now. It's started as adapt template, but what we realized is, once we give people a template, they're going to take it and extend it into an NFT market place and they're going to take it and extend it into like an apeing contract right two very different things.

But if you need, if you need to build a contract that apes into ave a right now, you can pull that branch down and have it done in an hour and you could be building in your own APP that apes into Auve A and end up playing a contract because we've, like, we've tried it, we put a read me on how you you execute it yourself and we've just given it out to people to see if they want to use it and hoping they would. But like we do throw away a lot of things, but throwing it away means saving it as a branch for anyone to fork and documenting it in a read me and letting people run with it if they want. But we're going to go a different direction with this. It's not going to be a stable now, it's going to be something else. But we've learned that lesson in two weeks instead of two years. I remember an episode I did a long time ago and something that kind of enjoyed doing, like enjoyed the concept of and thought it was powerful, but I don't think it got a lot of hold. Was I was with a Logan Bruche Bruche on he's who started this kind of educational program where he would basically try and make these things called what he coined. The term is cryptographic Cryptoeconomic primitives. I'd like that. So, yeah, what is what are these smallest function modular pieces we can do? And then let's just make them as robust as hell and then Sueitea will do them right, and so like it's just it was like it was like an ongoing experimentation of what are the crypto like Cryptoeconomic primitives we can make and then create templets for everybody and then start to then use them as puzzle pieces, and I know that you understand the concept of modular puzzle pieces, and then how you can build beautiful things from them, from like was a Buildt F or yeah, but if that build, Yep. If not built, I forget that. The people can just play with the start to figure out how this stuff works together. Yep. Like I think that concept is powerful but hasn't quite taken hold yet. And then you start to see you know now this creates a beautiful chaos in a lot of ways and that people can build incredibly wonderful complicated things, but they may end up thinking that because the primitives themselves or robust, that the complicated thing that they build from them is as well. And we've what we've seen at least, like take, for instance, so that recent white hat hack from Sam with Sushi swap. Yep, to rights, make a wrong right here. You built from things that were robust and made something that wasn't always robust on all the edge cases. And then more complexity you add and something like that, the more odds that that's going to be. And so like. How do you walk that balance of enabling people but not abstracting too much away such that they assume everything is safe and stop. Yeah, I like lots of disclaimers here, and they're right. Like a lot of the stuff like we do get you dangerously close to having an APP. But you said in beginning it's a system. When it's a system, like the whole system needs to be audited as a whole. Right, like a lot of what we what we are giving out is is a small piece to the system. Or yeah, it's it's hard and you have to be clear about that that, like this isn't like don't Yolo this to main that right now there's something it did over there and there's a million dollars in it. Yeah, well, and I don't yet I say. I say that solidity is super easy. You can get in and you can learn this stuff right away. Is Super Easy to get on board. Do not be afraid of it. But the disclaimer is it is incredibly difficult to deploy a safe system on top of contract like all these smart contracts working together in a way like and and and it's so fun to be on a mentorship session with someone and they're they're just up at the top of the dunning Krueger and they're just hella confident that they just created the coolest smart contract and I get to sit down with them and we work through it and I say, well, what about this? And they start thinking through it and they go oh, oh, right, and you...

...have to have that moment of like, Bro Trust me, like you have a long journey to go. I'm down at the bottom of the pit right now, like like in the dunning Kruger, like yes, it's it takes. It takes nothing, Giga brains exactly. It takes gigger brains and so and I know, like I've been dunked on enough times to know that, like I'm not a gigger brain, I'm just a builder and I'm trying to put things together. So it's just like a huge disclaimer there that like you're here on the dunning Krueger and you've got it, like can I do it? Let's see, it's over here and it goes up and the no remembers. Do it backwards. Yeah, there we go. It looks like that right. It kind of. Yeah. So you have to like give you have to almost like have a like a just a check with them, just like okay, I gotta I gotta check you real quick. Like you, you are building awesome things and it is super exciting, but I can re enter into this contract and drain it right now and you would have just yellowed it to Manet. And I'm I sent stuff to a spot check guy who dunks on me all the time, and I'm dunking on you. So, like there's layers here of complexity and and you just kind of have to teach it that way, and it's just like you learned the hacks by building it, thinking, thinking it's good and then having someone come in and be like actually, it's yeah, it's more complicated than that. Like the message that value in the loop, like I would have never liked. That wouldn't click for me. It took me a lot of desertstanding weird edge cases of like how the Ivium is built and how's slidy than like compiles to it. It's so like it's not like this is something that I think I've also talked about. Add not it is the mentality of the structure of solidity, because it's it looks like javascript. It becomes more comfortable for people who are usually who who do things with javascript already and since we've lowered the barrier entry so low, like do whatever you want, but like it's really complicated. But unfortunately, the the types of people who come in doing whatever they want aren't don't have, like the the mentality of making something that you need to be the unit that you need to be in order to make something that's incredibly safe, like banking software, are control software, like go F like flights, flight software, things like this. We're like understanding everything and being incredibly confident that it works with redundancy. Is Not the mentality we teach and is not typically the mentality of applications built in something like Javascript, but it's yeah, for sure. Like on the other hand of that, like the reason the theorem is where it is is because we've had so many people just throwing things at the wall and so many people breaking them, and so like the I try to tell people from a security perspective, like the number one metric for security of like or like having confidence in a given smart contract is time value locked right, and so like it's not. It's this secure is is the secure up to this amunt of money for this amount of time, and so like we could be pretty pretty comfortable. We we can have pretty high confidence in the fact that Molt like noses, safe contracts are secure, complicated to like. The nice safe is not just a simple multi sick. Yeah, they held its mendous amount of value for a tremendous amount of time. That doesn't mean that they're not going to get hacked or there isn't a book. It means that it's not that much money worth of like. People are trying to do it, I guarantee it. It's like, for instance, like there are plenty of people who are monitoring every single smart contract that hits the etherium chain and probably others, and then automatically testing it for a gamut of known vulnerabilities that you can you can test with. It's funnily good to a spot check guy. He made us right. They automate has like yeah, the moment it hits the thing, it's broken. For if we're forgiven a array of vulnerabilities, and then okay, so that means that, like, if your shit gets popped, the moment hits the thing that you had some some...

...some relatively simple things wrong with it, if it takes, I don't know, Tenzero, then you have a tenzero bug. Right, it's because because, like, people aren't going to to to pop something if they know that the amount of value that they can take away from it is larger, or they're not going to disclose a vote, a new vulnerability that they know about until it's reasonable to do so from a value standpoint. So, like, like all of this is hard by you get to go do it and, like it was with something like Scaffoldeef, you get to do it quickly. It's and what's this level one, though, like I I have a comment with the one should be caution. It should be well, build it, enjoy it, put it on mainnet. Don't throw a shitlottle money in it. Yeah, probably not. Put It on main neet either. I try not to. Like temperat side. Jot is a different thing. Yeah, there you go. That's that's a little put it on a small test net of value. Exactly. I so I I want a hammer on this that, like in my mentorship sessions, I always try to pull the rug on them a couple times to get them to understand one thing we do. You talking about how simple solidity is. I want them to understand how simple it is. I I have them make a counter and an increment and a decrement function. We set it at five and we play around with it and make sure the counter goes up and down when we incremented decrement, and we're kind of thinking this is this is kind of like this little embedded controller, but it's like hello redundant, right, like everyone who has a node now has a copy of this little controller and not even we can stop it. But when you decrement, that thing blowsy, or you take it five, three, two, hundred and two, you hit decrement one more time and that thing rolls over. Those bits all flip too high and all of a sudden you have a balance of infinity dollars. They didn't expect that to happen and and that that moment of like, Oh shit, so I thought I got it. It's a simple counter. It goes up and down, turns into there's a lot more here for me to understand and there's a lot going on under those abstractions and they have that moment of check and then we move on to happings. Okay, now we can store our balance. Let's build a little decentralized bank. Let's set this up so you can depause it, withdraw okay, now you learn a payable function where a contract can receive money. Okay, well, what happens at one contract sends that to another contract and it re enters right. So we want to have those moments of like trust me, Bro this is really complicated. I'm going to throw I'm gonna throw something out you just to keep you in check here, like you gotta know that, like there's there's so, and like again, I'm level one. Level two, I feel like, is when you start thinking more about the the in depth security and what's this thing going to look like on mainnet and how is how is this going to perform an adversarial environment? Level one is more just like, let's make this nft market place so we can do this on a bonding curve and play with it and it's all test net, like we're not we're not putting a lot of things into conjunction, and that's where I want people to be playing around in that sandbox and really innovating. If you look at all those nft contracts that are on mainnet right now, they're almost all the same garbage. I mean not garbage that opens up and contracts are great. They've done a great job, but like NFT's right now are like there's very, very little innovation at the smart contract level, and that is the superpower of atherium. Is that innovation level, and very few people are actually innovating. They're saying I can deploy this profile picture and make money. All Right, so let I'm going to push back a little bit here, right, and in that like if you build a tool that does a thing, and that and and building of that. So we'll call it a crypt cryptographer or crypto economic primitive. Right. We'll just call nft the standard of NFT's NFD. Then have to lock another nft up to get our shirt. Let's just be able just start with the basic saying. Right, okay, we have we have unique digital scarcity and ownership, which is that I'd called general in Ft. Right. So that's an innovation, but it's application just based on that single similar functionality can also be innovated on. Right, because once you take that thing and combine it with a bunch of other things...

...in a particular context, that could be an innovate innovative to any any field. It doesn't require innovating the technology to move things forward. And I think what we're experiencing a lot of ways is, Oh shit, blockchains are useful once we have something that it. Now we can build innovative primitives on something that's relatively robust and gives ownership and we don't have to trust humans to take care of it. We have this new tool that's built on top of this other innovative tool, the blockchain. Now let's figure out we can do with that, now that we have this new quote unquote, use case and see how far we can take that. And that's what you see in like a like. Why nft, most n FT platforms, are garbage of nothing changing is because they're experimenting with that to seeing how far they can take it and they don't have the prowess or domain expertise to Innovit. They at the lower level, but they may have that dominic. For Jesus. They were like, well, in my industry, this would change this drastically. What would just use this thing. It's better now, as opposed to like, let's revamp it all, make this new thing and see if that works. It's like this is tried and true, and I think there's like this lag of the higher you go up the stack in terms of changing the user experience for large scale industries, the more robust the lower technologies need to be. They need to be ossified in some way because you're going to build so much value on it. Like, or pretty confident with, like the standard, your ear s seven hundred and twenty one, when you start changing things, if like nft is owning and FT's and build standards around that type of stuff, and it gets a little arry. We haven't we haven't quite figure out the bugs in that type of stuff yet. But but like the EARC twenty standard is super standardized and everyone's using it and it's has a dumb ass approved pattern in it. The fact that you can't send tokens to a contract and have it receive it means that every time you want to make a an interface with a contract where you've got tokens and you need to get him into the contract, you have to do one transaction to approve it and then another transaction on the contract to go get it. That's done. A little more innovation at the contract level before everybody started doing icos would have actually made the UX now so much better. But that wasn't but people were saying this is right and true and it works unless deploy it. And I'm saying now that is tried and true in that like it's hard to steal, it's easy to do, right. That's like what. You hit that barrier, it's hard to steal and easy to do then like all right, let's run with it and naively because you have like that's that's that's just me. Okay, when you have a technology that has value intrinsically attached to it, it's digital scarcity, right, that means it's valuable to people. So, like when you you and you've just injected the concept of value into a technology where you could potentially make money from in the process applying with it, you're always going to have a rational exuberance and you're always going to have this like hype cycle of bubbles and boosts and busts, and so that's the thing. We have something we have to get get along with. And so, like the EARC twenty ICO boom is an example of that. We lowered the barrier ventry and gay people a tool that allowed them to make ICOS with with relatively little work. They didn't understand the technology, but they could do it and then they ran with it. We saw a bunch of dumb shit and a few good things, and it's just going to keep happening the more we do that. But, like do you would you want to make things accessible, and the more the more inclusive you are in the process of of making technology and giving it to people, the more likely that that that boom and bust cycles going to continue to happen because, like you said, people are greeting and ignorant. They want to do do things, they want to try it, and then other people throw money at it because it seems it sounds cool and they think they have upside right. That the upside is the scary thing too. They think, if I buy this a liquid jpeg now, I could sell this a liquid JPEG for twice as much tomorrow, and it's like like not, how about how do you make a crystal case? It does right, but most of...

...them they don't like most of the side that doesn't work. And then gaging, this is a problem we've seen just of investing in various cryptocurrencies, not even like n F teaser or whatever. Like gaging the top of that bubble is basically impossible. And let zoom in on that NFT, like that nft standard doesn't have any royalties built into it. If I'm an artist and and I make, you know, sixteen, sixteen pieces of art in FT's, sixteen n FT's, and I sell them for a quarter eath apiece and that's it, like I make some money on that and that's awesome, like I've got some support from my community, that's great. But then those things go on to some other market and they're trading around for two weeks and then six seat at me as the artist. I'm left behind, like with my original amount, and there's not a great standard for paying those artists. But if you wanted a classform do there's platforms that do it, like super are does that. Super are gives perpetual, perpetual royalties, but you have to use their platform, in the platform exactly that the nft itself does not have. So so that then there you have platform lock in if you want to get those royalties. And different platforms are able to offer different royalties. But if the royal teas were built into the token, and this is exactly like what a theorium is built for, right, like, let's innovate on that nft and let's build those royalties and and that's align those incentives. A whole new a whole new thing is going to happen. When that happens, we actually did that with a sticker market. Its status. Yep, so like a pass sticker pack is an n ft and it's hard to call that act. So that in the ownership and royalty and like what we're what, what fee is set and where that fee goes is also an n Ft. so you have an ownership that controls kind of where the money flows and how much it's worth, and then a basically a factory of potentially scarce factory of other NFT's. which do you can then use to prove that you have bought it within the application to show stickers? Right. I thought that was pretty interesting and I think that's not I want to say we change the standard. Af to talk to Ricardo about it. But like, those are being worked on and I'm curious to see like once, once they get robust, people start, people are going to use them. We, I think, the cats out of the bag, just like your C s. We have a reasonable, oh good enough, digital we have those making tokens, minting tokens. Now we have a good enough way of playing with unique digital scarcity. Now people are going to start really innovating and I've eventually we're going to find we're like, okay, this is this is them generic, generic enough secure thing that allows you to say, I'm going to make this, I have these options to do it, this is took to make it function the way I'd like it to. And that's the primitive. But like then, more complex that thing gets, the more difficult it is to call it a primitive. For sure, yeah, the security is of yeah, it's a hard problem, but this is the best place to be in the sandbox in terms of like anyone can do it, like right. And then we've seen, we've seen, we've seen groups make these things that, in any other circumstance than I can imagine in the history of human race, would never have been able to do that. Likes like a group of sixteen year olds making millions of dollars on ant platform. Like all right, I don't know how much they are, that it's going to be. They're around that age, but like, okay, name that somewhere else and not the dudes making money to left and and they're making money because they built something cool. But like zoom in on the kid from a MIT that gets on a mentorship session with me that is excited about a theory and but doesn't know a ton about it. We go through a couple sessions. I give him scaffold eive, we build nfts, we build some defy stuff. He learned some of the primitives and then he comes back to me two weeks later and he says, Hey, I have...

...this new patronage model that works with in FT's, that hooks into the beforce call. There's a taxation model. You bootstrap it with the bonding curve and then you you experiment with this new taxation model on top these N fft. These can be liquidated if the taxes aren't paid, kind of like harborger tax ish, and it's like, Bro, you just like invented something like that is what this is for. And like how do I empower you to get this, like to take this to the next step and this this will zoom I' zoom in on like a big problem in the space right now. He needs to pay for a hundred thousand dollar audit and that's garbage. That's bogus, like that's like that's what I spend a good portion of my time as trying to mitigate that issue, because it's not going to get any better like that. What you just said is not going to get any better in the short term because the number of projects that want audits is growing exponentially faster, if I'm just using the term colloquially. There is then the people who are able to give them. Well, I think that, like it will start with the funnel, like when I'm talking about I'm level one, when I land on the Ethernet Dow and there's all these developers that are looking for a mentorship. Ali from from synthetics is picking two of them and he's going to mentor them hardcore, and I'm on the other end. I want to I'm going to pick I'm going to take all sixty six of those kids, I'm going to send them the eth Dev speed run and I'm going to give them go watch this video. Then tackle this, then tackle this, then tackle this. You're going to learn. You're going to learn payable functions, you're going to learn staking, you're going to learn time, then you're going to learn contract a contract interaction. You're going to learn how to deploy your own token, you're going to learn how to a build a decks, you're going to learn how commit reveal works, you're learn how sign messages work, you're going to build your own Multi Sig. Like I'm giving them a curriculum to work through, and I think that at the top of the funnel, that's exactly what we need. is like this really nicely. Think. Yes, what, what's that? So where are you doing this mentorship? Like, where can people go to do this? Like how? Everywhere, man, you may not see. Like the formalization of this is desperately needed. I mean I know like for Jeeva is doing it with securium on, but that's that's tailored towards sport contract auditing. So that's going on. Multiple Levers Lights Up. Yep. And so this level one, this on ramp of doing things, like getting getting to the point where I'm going to add a lot. I'm gonna add a level in between. It's like there's a level. You Don know why. Yeah, you're getting them in there and you're giving them the right tools to say, like this is how it works and these are reasonable things to think about, and this is these are the types of questions you need to be asking yourself now. You can reasonably so make something new based on what you'd like to do and and and a pretty good way. Now, I would say the next level from there is, what are all the things that I can do as a developer or a team to get it ready for made meet right? How do I how do I use all of the available tooling and knowledge to spend time bolstering my own confidence that this thing is build? Well, I have tests. I've I've I've run the myriad of free security software to check for lowhanging fruit. I built, you know, dataflow diagrams, to do threat model, like. I've done all these various things to like build the documentation, understand the risks and caught all the lowhanging bugs. And I have a test corpus that like allows me to keep working to that. Don't so an introduced new things right. So like that's level too. At that point you can say you have you have a pretty strong idea of this is the information that I'm lacking. I've identified this risk and I don't know if I'm mitigating it very well. That's when you can ask for an audit. That's how you ask for an audit. But it still costs a hundred thousand dollars because we don't have enough. Better. That's point right. Yeah, the the better. You're able to narrow your...

...scope from I need an audit to here's risk of out. Yeah, here's the things that I've done and I need stronger confidence that this works. Just like this, here's the documentation on how that works. You're going to drastically decrease the time to get one and the price to do so, because most are not and learn a tremendous amount ins that. That in that what I like about this is that if you like that process and you're one of those people that has identified that risk and don't quite understand how how to mitigate it or what's available to you to do so, there are available tools to then learn that and then become an auditor if you want to do that. And that's so that's a quality roadmap to go from. I'm a developer learn this stuff too. I actually really love the security of the stuff and I want to I want to make other people more confident that their stuff where's appropriately and get paid a lot of money doing it to find those people in their church. Of that for sure. Yep, I think the funnel for me is there's like level zero, which is getting the why of Atherium, like why you even want to build something on it. What is it about the Theorem? That's an interesting and then, if you're a developer, level one is just picking up scaffold, the learning the syntax, going through the eth Dev speed run. It's what I would call that. It's not just learning the synax. You're up at the dunning Kruger, at the top of the Dunn Kruger when you get the Synax, because you feel like you could do anything, but you you need to go through a tour of duty. You need to understand how signed messages work, how commit reveal works. You need to understand that when you build a signature based multi Sig I can pass in the same signature twice and I can do this trick where I can get something to pass and you thought your code was solid, but it's not. There's a whole you written that down. Is that you'd like to give it? Where we have it? Please show me where that's. This like of this curriculum of things people should know. So Google Eth Dev speed run, ETHTV speed run and you're going to get a medium article that's full of links and if you follow that. Step by step you get to the the final form. The final boss is building a signature based multiesis the video extending it to be a doll yep, that's it right there yet. So it all starts with tinkering with scaffold eive. You need to learn the syntax of the language. Scaffold each sets you up with that right away. You have your smart contract on the left and you have your APP on the right and it's autoadapting. You add a UN to your smart contract. The UN shows up in the front it. You had a function to your smart contract. A button shows up in the front and for that function and you click that buttonet calls a function. So you're allowed to you're enabled to prototype and learn solidity and test your assumptions and learn the syntax in a really quick like devlute. Then from there go mint an NFT. Go through this in FT example. It just shows you what an NFC contract looks like. It shows you how to use the tools. It gives you context for what that looks like. Then there's a challenge. Decentralized staking sets you up with you need to build a staking APP. You need to learn how these smart contracts are kind of like state machines. You need to be in a deposit state at first and then you need to based on the block dot time stamp, you need to move to either a withdraw state or an execute state. Challenge to you're going to deploy a token, you're going to put it in a vendor, you're going to learn about contract, a contract interaction. You're going to learn about the approved pattern and how shitty it is. Then randomness. Rent randomness is really tricky on a deterministic blockchain. You're going to play around with commit reveal. You're going to see how shitty that you X is. You're going to understand about oracles and oracles bringing in outside information and figuring out how you get randomness on chain that's truly random. Then it's the decks. Right, you need to learn how to build a simple decentralized exchange and I can show you how to do it in thirty lines of code. That article really dives into it, but really that price function is the thing to focus on. Tokens to eath or east to Tokens. Then then there's some side quest here, like bonding curves, setting up your own like basically building your own unic sewap front end,...

...basically building your own of a front end with the lend component, building a contract that lets you pape. Then it's signed messages, then it's multi six and it's using assigned message within multisix that there's this whole curriculum that that I've found that like you're not just building a multisig, you're learning the Gotcha's of the network and the challenges of a Theorem by building this thing and you're not building it to sell it, you're building it to learn from it. And then there's a whole tech tree that kind of spans out from these these builds. And what I'm doing just to Shill a little bit more. Basically, I'm bringing that that funnel in and I'm giving people the resources. Any web to developer that wants to get started should be able to just pick this up and learn it. But if they if they get stuck, they can start working with me. But if you've completed like challenge to and you want to get on a call, like yeah, let's get on a zoom and let's go right. But what I'm doing is I'm now streaming eath to developers. So I got dropped a bunch of UNI. I got dropped a bunch of GTC valueless governance tokens, but I can sell those on exchange, I can get eith and I can stream e to developers. So if you go to build guildcom biddle, get old dods goods. This is this is the first this is the first iteration of this. It's basically like, as soon as you start showing value, start building these things, I start streaming eath to you. But the way the eath works is you withdraw from the Stream and you turn in work. So I kind of put the onus on the developer to turn in and price their own work. But I give you the the North Star of were building tutorials, were building prototypes. If you want to build an n FFT that needs to lock up another nft before you mint it, and there's not a tutorial to do that. Already. Go for it. You know that's worth half an eath. Go, go get it and I'll stream eats to you. And so I have like thirty some developers. I'm streaming e to developers and artists. I'm streaming eath to to build these tutorials, to build these prototypes. And then the moonshot collective is a step up from that. Awaukee is kind of stepped in as like a multiplier and we're bringing you more like seventy or eighty developers in and we're doing this same thing or figuring out how to scale it up. So scaling up that that that top of the funnel. Get a developer and give them the tools they need, give them the education they need to get started, give them the tour of duty where they learn all the Gotcha's, get them ready, and then from there they go to level two, and level two is beyond me right, like I'll send them to smarter people at that point. But once a once a person knows that they've been through all this stuff, like Georgio. So get on a call with a right like a hot second, like yeah, yeah, exactly, like like a lot of really intelligent people like way beyond me, Giggabra. Means if I can show them that they've been through the tour of duty, they're going to pick them up and they're going to become a very valuable member of the etherium ecosystem. So I'm doing the the funnel and the Level One and I'm going everywhere I can find developers and I'm trying to get them this information. And then level two is going to be up to smarter people in the ecosystem and I'll hand them up to you right and that could be like someone from snap shot, someone from sling shot, all the shots, someone from chain shot. Let's get them all in there. I can give you a good developer and they're looking for those two write like all of this come color and Cot ungreat there there days. If you, if you can prove that you've gone through this and you can ass is that. But it's as a threshold of information and none I have. You've goals on it, you've done it and you've tried it and you've failed multiple times to get to the point of success. You will have a job. Yep for it. Yep, that's yeah. Can if you if you can't find one, tell me it. Don't Pleson. I'll put you one immediately. Like there's just nod, there's zerodapps about it, like and so like. I mean I have had a thousand questions from here, had on your journey, but we are no, we have to wrap up the other one of these. Let's do that. A call some to do a recurring one? Right, it doesn't matter. This is fun, so thanks for coming on. I think that was the quality way to in this. We have links in the description of the youtube video. They'll also be in...

...the podcast when this gets thrown out. And if three form go visit these things. Go, try them. When you fail, try again. When you fail again, ask somebody and get your job. Keep building. Yes, hell yeah, thanks, awesome. Thank you.

In-Stream Audio Search

NEW

Search across all episodes within this podcast

Episodes (118)