Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 107 · 5 months ago

Hashing It Out Personals: Austin Griffith

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Austin Griffith is a prolific developer who works with the Ethereum Foundation to not only build new decentralized technology, but also teach others how to do the same. He also leads the BuidlGuidl, which is a curated group of Ethereum builders creating products, prototypes, and tutorials with scaffold-eth. Check him out at:

Social Media of Austin Griffith

Social Media of BuidlGuidl

Welcome to hashing it out, apodcast where we talked to the tech innovators behind blocked in infrastructure and decentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how people build thistechnology and the problems they face along the way. Come listen and learn fromthe best in the business so you can join their ranks. Well, we'reback hashing it out, but the personal episode doing with Austin Griffiths. Asalways, I'm your host. Start to Corey Petty. Austin, people knowwho you are, but tell them who you are builder in the space.I'd like to build tools and give to better tools to developers and educate themand get them started and get them building and get them dangerously close to havinga product and a prototype. Aangerously quotes. Yep, and you've been doing thatfor quite like keeve been doing that for quite a while. Like there'sno there's no a gymder for this. This is just US hanging out havinga conversation, talking about what's new, what's what we think is happening whatever. So, like you have been building in a myriad of ways ever since, God, when did you get starts? I feel like you've all kind ofalways been around. It was, well, it was more like twothousand and seventeen, like summer of two thous was in seventeen. I Ifinally like got a theorem and understood like how cool it was and dove inand learned and then like released my first project, which was like that's justlike learning how to make an oracle prototype, and it was garbage and no onecared. And then, and then I went heads down for another fewmonths and I built like this game, galleasst Iohe, and it's like this. I mean it's it would probably be making millions of dollars if I releasedit right now because of the NFT hide. I was like a game. Orto brew that up if you want. Yeah, like every everything is.It's yeah, I I could share. Are we sharing screens? I couldshare a screen to it's a game where, like you, it's kindof like a resource management game, similar to like settlers of Catan. Ithas a lot of settlers of Kitsan vibe to it, but it's all likehand painted and they like painted them on with oil and it took pictures ofthe ships and then cut them in with with Photoshop. So it tries tofeel like this. Yeah, there we go. It tries to feel likethis. Let's see if I can send some some Xdie to that account witha burner wallet to let's let's get all the thing. there. Were yourfinals here. Yes, exactly. But the point here is like this landis all procedurally generated. Everything's on chain. This, this is the this isthe Fishmonger, and he wants you to go fishing for filets and thenyou sell them for copper and copper as an EARC twenty and all the fishor EARC S, and you use commit reveal for for randomness, for catchingthe fish. And then the boats are nft's and that nft's can own otherNFT's where citizens can get on the boat and sail around that. There's alot of learning here for me. where, when, when a ship sails,you can't do like movement on chain. So so this taught me a lotof things about like where blockchain is useful and where it's not, andkind of a lot of the gotchas of building on a slow, asynchronous database. But one thing here is when you want to move, you can't justlike put movement like this person is at Xy and they're moving along right.You just can't do that on an ASINC blockchain. So one of the discoverieswas, oh, you send a transaction to put up your sales and thenyour ship sort of just sails along at some speed and you'll notice that everyfive seconds or so all these ships kind of move a little right and ifyou look closely, even the clouds in the background move every five seconds.And that's a block getting mind. So...

...it's like kind of this passive way, like you put up your sales and then you're moving, but you're notactually controlling it. You're it's more like it's more like a vending machine,like an arcade machine, where you hit the button it starts moving your shipfor you. And it just enlightened me a lot in a lot of theGotchas and interesting things about an evm environment. And then after Galleass was I startedfocusing on tooling and I looked at user experience and we spend a lotof time looking at like Meta transactions and burner wallets. Both of those thingswere like when you when you pair those things up, you get someone wholands on a site and automatically generates a wallet for them. It's like asession wallet, Right. You don't put billions of dollars in it, butit's okay. We had kind of we've had a lot of conversations about thatregarding like where that was going in the underlying security of teaching people this typeof stuff previously. So if you're interested in that type of stuff, golook for either hashing it out Austin or Bok whin poddcast. Austin's don't don't. And then so the the the key. There's like Meta transactions allow us asigner to just sign messages and then a relayer to put those on chain, and then the burner wall that allows you just land on the site andhave an identity right away, and those those kind of really came together withnifty ink, another project. I made that with a buddy, like wemade that. Basically it's like if you have if you have a tablet,you point that tablet at nifty dot ink and you can make an nft.You doodle the NFT and it records you doodling and it signs that recording withyour burner wallet. Yeah, here we go, nifty ink. So ifyou go to like create their that first tab up in the top and thenyou create some there you go. So you can just like grab a color, you can start drawing, you can kind of like just, yeah,draw about anything, and then it it's going to record your drawing and thenit's going to use so you have a burner wall at there in the bottomright. So you have an account already and it's recording you right now andit'll put it up into IPFs and deploy this as an nft. You justneed to give it a name and then some limit. There in the inthe Ui there. Yeah, there's your wallet. See that you I overto the right there where you have name and limit. Give it a giveit a name and maybe make it a like a one of two and FTand send me one or something like that. But this is the process of thisis the instant on boarding as an artist. You Land, you dosomething really interesting on the platform to provide value, and then other people mightbuy these NFT's from you without you ever having to ever have any eath orany understanding. And then after you earn something, then you're much more likelyto be wanting to educate yourself on how to protect that thing. There wego. You just like gaslessly minted an NFT. This is on a sidechain, so it's cheaper. It's on x died, but then it upgradesto etherium. You can even scroll down there and you can see the theownership. Yeah, so see how you have one of so click that mintbutton, type in Austin Griffith dotyth and hit hit it. This is goingto let you gaslessly mint me a copy. Notice, it's doing edens resolution andstuff like that. So that and it's make sure, sketch. Yeah, it's called, Yep, the blocky. It's got a blocky preview, it'sgot Ns, it's got a Qr code scanner, just a lot ofthings that you're going to use to build an APP. All of that isbuilt into scaffold and we'll get to scalpel these. That's like having a tooling. What's that? Yeah, it's probably on its way. Oh, yeah, you've got a transaction successful. Yeah, it'll take a second to show upbecause it's got to like Parse the subgraph and and display there, butit will soon show that I am also an owner. There it is Yep. If you go back to details, you'll see that you and I arethe owner. So you you have one of two and I have two oftow and what's that? What's it cost upgrade to main net? Right nowthere's that big button down there. I can't see it because it's probably ahundred three, six, hundred and sixty six dollars. So well, WHAT'STHE BASE? VI? The baseis at...

...like one hundred and forty seven rightnow, so one hundred and thirty four courting from mid by. But youyou hit that button, then you pay six hundred dollars and this thing showsup an open see and it's a main net in Ft. so everybody toget six walkers. So if you want this for six hundred and sixty sixdollars, let me know from the right, because I want to pay for thegas face. That's right. The goal here, the point here,is the on boarding. The onboarding up Hella smooth right. You could haveopened up an I absolute, you should have typed in and ifty ink.You could have made something really interesting and you could have earned crypto without knowingeven what crypto was at the beginning of that journey. The the key insightis that people will protect something once they earn value, once they earn anarrative behind that account. They're much more interested in learning about what a twelveword seed phrases and how to protect it. If you hit them up front withtake this twelve word seed Grays for protect this twelve word seed phrase withall your life. Okay, now, prove to me you can type thattwelve word seed phrase back in, or I'm not even going to let yousee the APP. Like that's terrible. onboarding. Enter chance that this iswhat I gated day deal with, and it's like, I don't know,I run this balance. Don't be wrong, I am. You're on here becauseI deeply care about the worth you're doing trying to make that on boardingexperience useful and enticing for people such that they get that like click of likethis, this is awesome, I can do this and now I can domore. I'll want to do more and and then maybe it starts to makesense, as value accruls and be whether it with that be monetary or personalor whatever, to then start walking through and introducing the key points of actuallysecuring and maintaining those types of things. But like, like you said,like if we take a look at the onboarding experience of every single APP,including the ones that I work on every day. It's way to the bayadventure is way too difficult for we're going to people to get started, orconfusing for that matter. Like I've gone on countless rants on nomenclature, whetherit be like the wallet as a Shitty Name. We shouldn't call it awallet, so on and so forth. Right, like, but like wouldn't. What's your motivation? I okay, let me let me start over here. I usually start the personal interviews with a single question. We kind ofalready got into it, and that is what do you care about? SoI think one of the things I love the most is empowering developers, likegiving them a tool and seeing them use it really well. Another thing isis users, like I love having people use the stuff I build and andbe delighted by it. Right and so like some kind of mixture of that. Now is kind of my target where I'm building tools for atherium or evmbuilders to build things and they're kind of my users. But then they'll haveusers. And the biggest win for me is when someone takes scaffold thee andbuild something amazing that a bunch of people use and that and that lobby.That's a general question, right, like what you care about, and sothat you like building things for people to use and then watching the joy ofthem using it and then maybe like facilitating them getting that click that you gotpreviously. Like you just you just kind of explained a lot of like thediscovery experience with Galass right of like I'm going to build a thing, andall the things you learned across the process of building that thing to completion taughtyou and helped you get to where you are today. And it seems asthough you like creating that experience for other people too. Yeah, why atheorium? Why did choose? Why do you use a theoreum to do thistype of stuff? Why not the myriad of other experiential technologies to other toget that like, what was it about this particular thing that made you dedicateyour career to like at first it was a technology like had I not likedid I went deep down the rabbit hole of Docer, and I love doctorand I love the containerization and I love doing infrastructure and code and it wassuch a powerful tool for me, and...

I built a piece of software ontop of doctor that let people spin up clusters and set up and orchestrate allsorts of stuff and the company that I was working for wouldn't let me opensource it. And it was like forty dudes used it and it was amazingand it could have been used by a ton of shops to do a lotof orchestration and scale up and it answered the question from my little company andthey used it, but it would have answered the same question for a lotof other places. So I I guess I got burned by that pretty hard, like not having things open source. How we start aligning incentives, howwe start figuring out even like when you sit down and you get into apolitical discussion with someone, it usually ends up with we don't we just don'thave the agency to fix that. Like I don't know. I don't knowwith my little caveman brain how to put change into the world in a waythat actually is going to have impact. And for the first time when Idiscovered a Theorem, it was for the technology and I did, you know, speed run and go deep down the rabbit hole. But there's also communityand there's also this like agency. I feel like some of these problems thatfeel like nebulous and and things that like, I don't think I can solve andjust looking at like all my data being stored in facebook and how webto kind of has has has plagued us now. Like at first it wasreally awesome. It's really nice. I think Dan Feeley has this really Nicetweet about like web one was great because we could all run our own serversand everyone could get to them. Web to was was cool because we welike basically trusted someone else to do that stuff. We learned that not everybodywants to run their own node and we want to be able to trust butif you trust one centralized party, like things don't work out as well.And and and we're using that to kind of think about how web three needsto be. You know, you still need to have lots of people runningthose nodes, but you need to make it more of a platform where peoplecan deploy things on top of it. So it's my cave man. Braineis just a builder. I don't know how to affect politics. I don'thave a ton of agency in that world, but I feel like the community asa whole and the technology as a whole is is is going to sortof meet current politics and current technology in a way that's actually going to likebe effective, and I don't know what that looks like at this point.But when I think of funding developers or that problem with open source, whycan't I open sources? Why aren't the incentives aligned? I see incentives aligninga lot better on atherium than anywhere I've ever worked before. So again it'slike kind of nebulous. I'm still not saying like, but I feel likethe platform has the potential to facilitate some of these big, big picture changesthat we want to see in the world and I think it's going to startfrom the ground up and it's going to be like a build up kind ofthing. But I just want to be around and make sure everybody has allthe tools they can to build those things and I don't know what it's goingto look like. Yeah, definitely, certainly a I got along with alot of that. It's it's the community that allowed me to do it thefuck I wanted and then thank me for it and then re use the thingsthat I did in a way that helped push a narrative that I cared aboutand a lot of ways. But it's not the only one. And youdo the same thing right and so I and something like so, one ofour one of our listeners, your colum. They actually all cohost the show.Help me start this thing self sovereign. Here's a pain in the ass,though, and this is kind of what I wanted. I'd like topoint out, is that, let's see how I want to put this,re reframing what that kind of story dance set, which is like the walkingthrough Web one through web three, is. I've tried to try and see itas like a constant pendulum shift between Yep, well, gets went toofar and but the rest just like exuggerence...

...that humans do whenever they get theirhands on a new toy. It's like, Oh, we can give people accessto information, let's let's go ham on that. You get all theinformation and and oh it's kind of difficult. Well, let's substract that away andwe're going to abstract it to a point where, like, you don'thave to paint, responsible or understand anything, but you get everything. And thenwe went full clip with that and that's where we that's where we livetoday, and we're starting to get to the realization, I think so froma societal said point, that anyone a look too far with this like maybepeople should have some ownership and responsibility in custodianship of information, such that understandthe motivations, in bias and difficulties of doing that job and you mitigate abit of the like power you give to people who are providing those abstractions,right Google, facebook, whoever, right and in some case. And thenonce you understand that that play, you can then start to make conscious decisionson where you want to live, like what, what pros and cons you'rewilling to give up, because you have the information available to make those typesof things. But if you're you're introduced to that world, as many ofthe kids are today, where you've never seen the responsibility and you can't getto the abstraction, but you're just drinking from a fire hose of information thatisn't fedded. It's going to be really hard to do and I think whatlike the decentralized fazation space and in total, is starting to pull that back fromthe pigeon. I'm granted we're trying to do the exact same thing.And like the early days of Web three or whatever the hell you want tocall it, it was decentralize all the things no matter what. Let's seehow far we can take that US. And it's like, well, blackchain is a good for everything, it's not a past you. Right.And so now I think there needs to be a huge disclaimer there before beforeI let you go, like there needs to be a huge disclaimer that there'sa shitload of greed and and garbage markets happening here that's like fueling a lotof this stuff. Like, yeah, I feel like we have to saythat like up front, like maybe even eighty percent of the one garbage green, right, right, and so. But but if you look at thattwenty percent, you look at what those people are doing and you look atmaybe even like governance structures that are emerging right now, those governance structures andthe tools that we use to coordinate between those people might be where governments arein ten years, and so we may be building some of these initial toolsand and and learning kind of like by doing and dog fooding where where thosetools will be effective and where we'll have problems and how will build better tools. And I can tangent on the notes to safe thing, but I feellike I I cut you off right as you were about to swing for theno, you don't know. Okay, okay. So so to dive intothat a little bit more, when one theory is that governance is huge rightnow as as platforms decentralize, and there's a lot of again, decentralization theater, we've got to say it like you've got to throw the disclaimer out there. A lot of decentralization is BS, a lot of guns in spenser susright, exactly, exactly, Yep. And and to zoom in on that, it's a lot of time. Just a nose is safe. What wefind is a lot of dows and a lot of governance structures are basically justa multisig with the handful of signers and some things have to coordinate, Yep, and some ends, some voting that leads up to that's so you canvote for some signal and then we're getting in this multisig in the take careof it. Let's been off the note and one and Yep, exactly,Yep. So so with that in mind, with that theory in mind, ifwe want to be able to innovate on governance structures, what we're thinkingis let's have it settle to a nose is safe, but let's build youa starter kit where you can innovate at the react level, that the frontend level. Basically, you build a front end that is the Dow,that is whatever coordination you're trying to put together, whatever answers the problem ofhow do we get these twenty people to decide on a thing or whatever,like, how do we get these twenty people to make the right decision?Even better, that can just be in the front end and all those twentypeople basically are just signing a message that settles to a nose is safe inthe background and and that that saves you...

...years of building these intricate dows thatwe've seen be built in the last two years, when really all you neededwas a multisig and a front end to iterate on to get to the pointwhere, Oh, this, like this is the coordination structure that works.So what we're doing right now is we're pushing hard this this nose is safestarter kit that we just released the scaffold eath. So not only you havethe tooling, you have all the stuff that like lets you build a DAPPin ten minutes, but it's going to let you build a Dow in tenminutes going to it's going to let you put any kind of front end infront of some yeah, so if you so, if you go to thebranches up there, are right up there, Yep, and you type in nosis, there's going to be a nose is safe. So this is scaffoldeath and scalbaled eath is is a dapt template. If you want to getstarted learning how to build on a theorium scalpal Deze, it is the bestplace to start. If you Google Eth Dev speed run, you could getthe speed run from me of how to like wail through scalpled eeth. Butif you're looking to build and prototype some kind of governance structure, check outthis nose is safe starter kit. It's basically just a like a vanilla frontend that helps you set up a safe here's how many owners you have,here's the threshold and go. But what that could be? Let's just let'sjust say we're coordinating to decide if a group of thirty of us who've allinvested, k how long we feel like we should be, how stable weshould be, it's it will call it the stable Dow. All thirty ofthose people basically just get a front end that says, hey, how howstable are you feeling? Like maybe, maybe, like, you know,like sad face, medium face, happy face, right, and that's allthey get. And as a signer, they land on this website and theysay maybe, maybe it has some charts on it, maybe some some investingdata, I don't know, but it lands there and it says how areyou feeling about? Like, how stable are we feeling? Right, andyou pick Um. You know, I'm a medium, stable right now.Let's just hold eath. Or maybe I'm maybe I'm sad face. Let's getinto stables and be stable right now. And and you're a one of thirtyon a signer, on a Multi Sig, but all you're doing is getting inthere and signaling the way you feel and you hit go. You geta nice easy front end, you sign a message and you're done. Andwhat that does eventually is that's going to settle, it's going to aggregate allthose signatures and it's going to apply them and it's going to be backed bya nose is safe. So you get the power of decentralization, you getthe power of a Multi Sig, you get the power of no one personhas the vote here, but it's a very simple interface and maybe we're like, okay, we need to add five smiley faces like this. There's notenough, there's not enough granularity there. Or maybe it's like, you knowwhat, no one participated, we didn't have a good enough instead of buildingout this complicated Dow smart contract and then hiring an auditor and then months laterbuilding a front end to test whether or not the stability Dow is going towork, we bang it out in an afternoon and we get everybody to useit and we see if it works or not. And I want to seethat happen like over and over and over again. I want to be likethe Owaki says, the generator function. I want to be the generator functionfor those prototypes and tests. Small question, because I think that what I thinkthat process is awesome. Like. How do you see the permanence ofthese thing? Are they iterative and in a sense that you go upon them? Oh yeah, if since that like you, you like this. Thisiteration needs improvement. Throw it away, start a new one from scratch.It wouldn't be start from scratch, it be like fork and clone and andadjust right, and it's like and you've built this one open source thing.Maybe someone else needs that stable down in a totally different way. It's notgoing to be an investing in stables. It's more like how we're feeling aboutthe governance process and it's just like a good feedback or something. So it'sjust like this forkable example. Right when you when you look at those branchesof scaffold, he's there's two hundred and fifty or two hundred and sixty rightnow. It's started as adapt template, but what we realized is, oncewe give people a template, they're going to take it and extend it intoan NFT market place and they're going to take it and extend it into likean apeing contract right two very different things.

But if you need, if youneed to build a contract that apes into ave a right now, youcan pull that branch down and have it done in an hour and you couldbe building in your own APP that apes into Auve A and end up playinga contract because we've, like, we've tried it, we put a readme on how you you execute it yourself and we've just given it out topeople to see if they want to use it and hoping they would. Butlike we do throw away a lot of things, but throwing it away meanssaving it as a branch for anyone to fork and documenting it in a readme and letting people run with it if they want. But we're going togo a different direction with this. It's not going to be a stable now, it's going to be something else. But we've learned that lesson in twoweeks instead of two years. I remember an episode I did a long timeago and something that kind of enjoyed doing, like enjoyed the concept of and thoughtit was powerful, but I don't think it got a lot of hold. Was I was with a Logan Bruche Bruche on he's who started this kindof educational program where he would basically try and make these things called what hecoined. The term is cryptographic Cryptoeconomic primitives. I'd like that. So, yeah, what is what are these smallest function modular pieces we can do?And then let's just make them as robust as hell and then Sueitea will dothem right, and so like it's just it was like it was like anongoing experimentation of what are the crypto like Cryptoeconomic primitives we can make and thencreate templets for everybody and then start to then use them as puzzle pieces,and I know that you understand the concept of modular puzzle pieces, and thenhow you can build beautiful things from them, from like was a Buildt F oryeah, but if that build, Yep. If not built, Iforget that. The people can just play with the start to figure out howthis stuff works together. Yep. Like I think that concept is powerful buthasn't quite taken hold yet. And then you start to see you know nowthis creates a beautiful chaos in a lot of ways and that people can buildincredibly wonderful complicated things, but they may end up thinking that because the primitivesthemselves or robust, that the complicated thing that they build from them is aswell. And we've what we've seen at least, like take, for instance, so that recent white hat hack from Sam with Sushi swap. Yep,to rights, make a wrong right here. You built from things that were robustand made something that wasn't always robust on all the edge cases. Andthen more complexity you add and something like that, the more odds that that'sgoing to be. And so like. How do you walk that balance ofenabling people but not abstracting too much away such that they assume everything is safeand stop. Yeah, I like lots of disclaimers here, and they're right. Like a lot of the stuff like we do get you dangerously close tohaving an APP. But you said in beginning it's a system. When it'sa system, like the whole system needs to be audited as a whole.Right, like a lot of what we what we are giving out is isa small piece to the system. Or yeah, it's it's hard and youhave to be clear about that that, like this isn't like don't Yolo thisto main that right now there's something it did over there and there's a milliondollars in it. Yeah, well, and I don't yet I say.I say that solidity is super easy. You can get in and you canlearn this stuff right away. Is Super Easy to get on board. Donot be afraid of it. But the disclaimer is it is incredibly difficult todeploy a safe system on top of contract like all these smart contracts working togetherin a way like and and and it's so fun to be on a mentorshipsession with someone and they're they're just up at the top of the dunning Kruegerand they're just hella confident that they just created the coolest smart contract and Iget to sit down with them and we work through it and I say,well, what about this? And they start thinking through it and they gooh, oh, right, and you...

...have to have that moment of like, Bro Trust me, like you have a long journey to go. I'mdown at the bottom of the pit right now, like like in the dunningKruger, like yes, it's it takes. It takes nothing, Giga brains exactly. It takes gigger brains and so and I know, like I've beendunked on enough times to know that, like I'm not a gigger brain,I'm just a builder and I'm trying to put things together. So it's justlike a huge disclaimer there that like you're here on the dunning Krueger and you'vegot it, like can I do it? Let's see, it's over here andit goes up and the no remembers. Do it backwards. Yeah, therewe go. It looks like that right. It kind of. Yeah. So you have to like give you have to almost like have a likea just a check with them, just like okay, I gotta I gottacheck you real quick. Like you, you are building awesome things and itis super exciting, but I can re enter into this contract and drain itright now and you would have just yellowed it to Manet. And I'm Isent stuff to a spot check guy who dunks on me all the time,and I'm dunking on you. So, like there's layers here of complexity andand you just kind of have to teach it that way, and it's justlike you learned the hacks by building it, thinking, thinking it's good and thenhaving someone come in and be like actually, it's yeah, it's morecomplicated than that. Like the message that value in the loop, like Iwould have never liked. That wouldn't click for me. It took me alot of desertstanding weird edge cases of like how the Ivium is built and how'sslidy than like compiles to it. It's so like it's not like this issomething that I think I've also talked about. Add not it is the mentality ofthe structure of solidity, because it's it looks like javascript. It becomesmore comfortable for people who are usually who who do things with javascript already andsince we've lowered the barrier entry so low, like do whatever you want, butlike it's really complicated. But unfortunately, the the types of people who comein doing whatever they want aren't don't have, like the the mentality ofmaking something that you need to be the unit that you need to be inorder to make something that's incredibly safe, like banking software, are control software, like go F like flights, flight software, things like this. We'relike understanding everything and being incredibly confident that it works with redundancy. Is Notthe mentality we teach and is not typically the mentality of applications built in somethinglike Javascript, but it's yeah, for sure. Like on the other handof that, like the reason the theorem is where it is is because we'vehad so many people just throwing things at the wall and so many people breakingthem, and so like the I try to tell people from a security perspective, like the number one metric for security of like or like having confidence ina given smart contract is time value locked right, and so like it's not. It's this secure is is the secure up to this amunt of money forthis amount of time, and so like we could be pretty pretty comfortable.We we can have pretty high confidence in the fact that Molt like noses,safe contracts are secure, complicated to like. The nice safe is not just asimple multi sick. Yeah, they held its mendous amount of value fora tremendous amount of time. That doesn't mean that they're not going to gethacked or there isn't a book. It means that it's not that much moneyworth of like. People are trying to do it, I guarantee it.It's like, for instance, like there are plenty of people who are monitoringevery single smart contract that hits the etherium chain and probably others, and thenautomatically testing it for a gamut of known vulnerabilities that you can you can testwith. It's funnily good to a spot check guy. He made us right. They automate has like yeah, the moment it hits the thing, it'sbroken. For if we're forgiven a array of vulnerabilities, and then okay,so that means that, like, if your shit gets popped, the momenthits the thing that you had some some...

...some relatively simple things wrong with it, if it takes, I don't know, Tenzero, then you have a tenzerobug. Right, it's because because, like, people aren't going to toto pop something if they know that the amount of value that they cantake away from it is larger, or they're not going to disclose a vote, a new vulnerability that they know about until it's reasonable to do so froma value standpoint. So, like, like all of this is hard byyou get to go do it and, like it was with something like Scaffoldeef, you get to do it quickly. It's and what's this level one,though, like I I have a comment with the one should be caution.It should be well, build it, enjoy it, put it on mainnet. Don't throw a shitlottle money in it. Yeah, probably not. Put Iton main neet either. I try not to. Like temperat side.Jot is a different thing. Yeah, there you go. That's that's alittle put it on a small test net of value. Exactly. I soI I want a hammer on this that, like in my mentorship sessions, Ialways try to pull the rug on them a couple times to get themto understand one thing we do. You talking about how simple solidity is.I want them to understand how simple it is. I I have them makea counter and an increment and a decrement function. We set it at fiveand we play around with it and make sure the counter goes up and downwhen we incremented decrement, and we're kind of thinking this is this is kindof like this little embedded controller, but it's like hello redundant, right,like everyone who has a node now has a copy of this little controller andnot even we can stop it. But when you decrement, that thing blowsy, or you take it five, three, two, hundred and two, youhit decrement one more time and that thing rolls over. Those bits allflip too high and all of a sudden you have a balance of infinity dollars. They didn't expect that to happen and and that that moment of like,Oh shit, so I thought I got it. It's a simple counter.It goes up and down, turns into there's a lot more here for meto understand and there's a lot going on under those abstractions and they have thatmoment of check and then we move on to happings. Okay, now wecan store our balance. Let's build a little decentralized bank. Let's set thisup so you can depause it, withdraw okay, now you learn a payablefunction where a contract can receive money. Okay, well, what happens atone contract sends that to another contract and it re enters right. So wewant to have those moments of like trust me, Bro this is really complicated. I'm going to throw I'm gonna throw something out you just to keep youin check here, like you gotta know that, like there's there's so,and like again, I'm level one. Level two, I feel like,is when you start thinking more about the the in depth security and what's thisthing going to look like on mainnet and how is how is this going toperform an adversarial environment? Level one is more just like, let's make thisnft market place so we can do this on a bonding curve and play withit and it's all test net, like we're not we're not putting a lotof things into conjunction, and that's where I want people to be playing aroundin that sandbox and really innovating. If you look at all those nft contractsthat are on mainnet right now, they're almost all the same garbage. Imean not garbage that opens up and contracts are great. They've done a greatjob, but like NFT's right now are like there's very, very little innovationat the smart contract level, and that is the superpower of atherium. Isthat innovation level, and very few people are actually innovating. They're saying Ican deploy this profile picture and make money. All Right, so let I'm goingto push back a little bit here, right, and in that like ifyou build a tool that does a thing, and that and and buildingof that. So we'll call it a crypt cryptographer or crypto economic primitive.Right. We'll just call nft the standard of NFT's NFD. Then have tolock another nft up to get our shirt. Let's just be able just start withthe basic saying. Right, okay, we have we have unique digital scarcityand ownership, which is that I'd called general in Ft. Right.So that's an innovation, but it's application just based on that single similar functionalitycan also be innovated on. Right, because once you take that thing andcombine it with a bunch of other things...

...in a particular context, that couldbe an innovate innovative to any any field. It doesn't require innovating the technology tomove things forward. And I think what we're experiencing a lot of waysis, Oh shit, blockchains are useful once we have something that it.Now we can build innovative primitives on something that's relatively robust and gives ownership andwe don't have to trust humans to take care of it. We have thisnew tool that's built on top of this other innovative tool, the blockchain.Now let's figure out we can do with that, now that we have thisnew quote unquote, use case and see how far we can take that.And that's what you see in like a like. Why nft, most nFT platforms, are garbage of nothing changing is because they're experimenting with that toseeing how far they can take it and they don't have the prowess or domainexpertise to Innovit. They at the lower level, but they may have thatdominic. For Jesus. They were like, well, in my industry, thiswould change this drastically. What would just use this thing. It's betternow, as opposed to like, let's revamp it all, make this newthing and see if that works. It's like this is tried and true,and I think there's like this lag of the higher you go up the stackin terms of changing the user experience for large scale industries, the more robustthe lower technologies need to be. They need to be ossified in some waybecause you're going to build so much value on it. Like, or prettyconfident with, like the standard, your ear s seven hundred and twenty one, when you start changing things, if like nft is owning and FT's andbuild standards around that type of stuff, and it gets a little arry.We haven't we haven't quite figure out the bugs in that type of stuff yet. But but like the EARC twenty standard is super standardized and everyone's using itand it's has a dumb ass approved pattern in it. The fact that youcan't send tokens to a contract and have it receive it means that every timeyou want to make a an interface with a contract where you've got tokens andyou need to get him into the contract, you have to do one transaction toapprove it and then another transaction on the contract to go get it.That's done. A little more innovation at the contract level before everybody started doingicos would have actually made the UX now so much better. But that wasn'tbut people were saying this is right and true and it works unless deploy it. And I'm saying now that is tried and true in that like it's hardto steal, it's easy to do, right. That's like what. Youhit that barrier, it's hard to steal and easy to do then like allright, let's run with it and naively because you have like that's that's that'sjust me. Okay, when you have a technology that has value intrinsically attachedto it, it's digital scarcity, right, that means it's valuable to people.So, like when you you and you've just injected the concept of valueinto a technology where you could potentially make money from in the process applying withit, you're always going to have a rational exuberance and you're always going tohave this like hype cycle of bubbles and boosts and busts, and so that'sthe thing. We have something we have to get get along with. Andso, like the EARC twenty ICO boom is an example of that. Welowered the barrier ventry and gay people a tool that allowed them to make ICOSwith with relatively little work. They didn't understand the technology, but they coulddo it and then they ran with it. We saw a bunch of dumb shitand a few good things, and it's just going to keep happening themore we do that. But, like do you would you want to makethings accessible, and the more the more inclusive you are in the process ofof making technology and giving it to people, the more likely that that that boomand bust cycles going to continue to happen because, like you said,people are greeting and ignorant. They want to do do things, they wantto try it, and then other people throw money at it because it seemsit sounds cool and they think they have upside right. That the upside isthe scary thing too. They think, if I buy this a liquid jpegnow, I could sell this a liquid JPEG for twice as much tomorrow,and it's like like not, how about how do you make a crystal case? It does right, but most of...

...them they don't like most of theside that doesn't work. And then gaging, this is a problem we've seen justof investing in various cryptocurrencies, not even like n F teaser or whatever. Like gaging the top of that bubble is basically impossible. And let zoomin on that NFT, like that nft standard doesn't have any royalties built intoit. If I'm an artist and and I make, you know, sixteen, sixteen pieces of art in FT's, sixteen n FT's, and I sellthem for a quarter eath apiece and that's it, like I make some moneyon that and that's awesome, like I've got some support from my community,that's great. But then those things go on to some other market and they'retrading around for two weeks and then six seat at me as the artist.I'm left behind, like with my original amount, and there's not a greatstandard for paying those artists. But if you wanted a classform do there's platformsthat do it, like super are does that. Super are gives perpetual,perpetual royalties, but you have to use their platform, in the platform exactlythat the nft itself does not have. So so that then there you haveplatform lock in if you want to get those royalties. And different platforms areable to offer different royalties. But if the royal teas were built into thetoken, and this is exactly like what a theorium is built for, right, like, let's innovate on that nft and let's build those royalties and andthat's align those incentives. A whole new a whole new thing is going tohappen. When that happens, we actually did that with a sticker market.Its status. Yep, so like a pass sticker pack is an n ftand it's hard to call that act. So that in the ownership and royaltyand like what we're what, what fee is set and where that fee goesis also an n Ft. so you have an ownership that controls kind ofwhere the money flows and how much it's worth, and then a basically afactory of potentially scarce factory of other NFT's. which do you can then use toprove that you have bought it within the application to show stickers? Right. I thought that was pretty interesting and I think that's not I want tosay we change the standard. Af to talk to Ricardo about it. Butlike, those are being worked on and I'm curious to see like once,once they get robust, people start, people are going to use them.We, I think, the cats out of the bag, just like yourC s. We have a reasonable, oh good enough, digital we havethose making tokens, minting tokens. Now we have a good enough way ofplaying with unique digital scarcity. Now people are going to start really innovating andI've eventually we're going to find we're like, okay, this is this is themgeneric, generic enough secure thing that allows you to say, I'm goingto make this, I have these options to do it, this is tookto make it function the way I'd like it to. And that's the primitive. But like then, more complex that thing gets, the more difficult itis to call it a primitive. For sure, yeah, the security isof yeah, it's a hard problem, but this is the best place tobe in the sandbox in terms of like anyone can do it, like right. And then we've seen, we've seen, we've seen groups make these things that, in any other circumstance than I can imagine in the history of humanrace, would never have been able to do that. Likes like a groupof sixteen year olds making millions of dollars on ant platform. Like all right, I don't know how much they are, that it's going to be. They'rearound that age, but like, okay, name that somewhere else andnot the dudes making money to left and and they're making money because they builtsomething cool. But like zoom in on the kid from a MIT that getson a mentorship session with me that is excited about a theory and but doesn'tknow a ton about it. We go through a couple sessions. I givehim scaffold eive, we build nfts, we build some defy stuff. Helearned some of the primitives and then he comes back to me two weeks laterand he says, Hey, I have...

...this new patronage model that works within FT's, that hooks into the beforce call. There's a taxation model.You bootstrap it with the bonding curve and then you you experiment with this newtaxation model on top these N fft. These can be liquidated if the taxesaren't paid, kind of like harborger tax ish, and it's like, Bro, you just like invented something like that is what this is for. Andlike how do I empower you to get this, like to take this tothe next step and this this will zoom I' zoom in on like a bigproblem in the space right now. He needs to pay for a hundred thousanddollar audit and that's garbage. That's bogus, like that's like that's what I spenda good portion of my time as trying to mitigate that issue, becauseit's not going to get any better like that. What you just said isnot going to get any better in the short term because the number of projectsthat want audits is growing exponentially faster, if I'm just using the term colloquially. There is then the people who are able to give them. Well,I think that, like it will start with the funnel, like when I'mtalking about I'm level one, when I land on the Ethernet Dow and there'sall these developers that are looking for a mentorship. Ali from from synthetics ispicking two of them and he's going to mentor them hardcore, and I'm onthe other end. I want to I'm going to pick I'm going to takeall sixty six of those kids, I'm going to send them the eth Devspeed run and I'm going to give them go watch this video. Then tacklethis, then tackle this, then tackle this. You're going to learn.You're going to learn payable functions, you're going to learn staking, you're goingto learn time, then you're going to learn contract a contract interaction. You'regoing to learn how to deploy your own token, you're going to learn howto a build a decks, you're going to learn how commit reveal works,you're learn how sign messages work, you're going to build your own Multi Sig. Like I'm giving them a curriculum to work through, and I think thatat the top of the funnel, that's exactly what we need. is likethis really nicely. Think. Yes, what, what's that? So whereare you doing this mentorship? Like, where can people go to do this? Like how? Everywhere, man, you may not see. Like theformalization of this is desperately needed. I mean I know like for Jeeva isdoing it with securium on, but that's that's tailored towards sport contract auditing.So that's going on. Multiple Levers Lights Up. Yep. And so thislevel one, this on ramp of doing things, like getting getting to thepoint where I'm going to add a lot. I'm gonna add a level in between. It's like there's a level. You Don know why. Yeah,you're getting them in there and you're giving them the right tools to say,like this is how it works and these are reasonable things to think about,and this is these are the types of questions you need to be asking yourselfnow. You can reasonably so make something new based on what you'd like todo and and and a pretty good way. Now, I would say the nextlevel from there is, what are all the things that I can doas a developer or a team to get it ready for made meet right?How do I how do I use all of the available tooling and knowledge tospend time bolstering my own confidence that this thing is build? Well, Ihave tests. I've I've I've run the myriad of free security software to checkfor lowhanging fruit. I built, you know, dataflow diagrams, to dothreat model, like. I've done all these various things to like build thedocumentation, understand the risks and caught all the lowhanging bugs. And I havea test corpus that like allows me to keep working to that. Don't soan introduced new things right. So like that's level too. At that pointyou can say you have you have a pretty strong idea of this is theinformation that I'm lacking. I've identified this risk and I don't know if I'mmitigating it very well. That's when you can ask for an audit. That'show you ask for an audit. But it still costs a hundred thousand dollarsbecause we don't have enough. Better. That's point right. Yeah, thethe better. You're able to narrow your...

...scope from I need an audit tohere's risk of out. Yeah, here's the things that I've done and Ineed stronger confidence that this works. Just like this, here's the documentation onhow that works. You're going to drastically decrease the time to get one andthe price to do so, because most are not and learn a tremendous amountins that. That in that what I like about this is that if youlike that process and you're one of those people that has identified that risk anddon't quite understand how how to mitigate it or what's available to you to doso, there are available tools to then learn that and then become an auditorif you want to do that. And that's so that's a quality roadmap togo from. I'm a developer learn this stuff too. I actually really lovethe security of the stuff and I want to I want to make other peoplemore confident that their stuff where's appropriately and get paid a lot of money doingit to find those people in their church. Of that for sure. Yep,I think the funnel for me is there's like level zero, which isgetting the why of Atherium, like why you even want to build something onit. What is it about the Theorem? That's an interesting and then, ifyou're a developer, level one is just picking up scaffold, the learningthe syntax, going through the eth Dev speed run. It's what I wouldcall that. It's not just learning the synax. You're up at the dunningKruger, at the top of the Dunn Kruger when you get the Synax,because you feel like you could do anything, but you you need to go througha tour of duty. You need to understand how signed messages work,how commit reveal works. You need to understand that when you build a signaturebased multi Sig I can pass in the same signature twice and I can dothis trick where I can get something to pass and you thought your code wassolid, but it's not. There's a whole you written that down. Isthat you'd like to give it? Where we have it? Please show mewhere that's. This like of this curriculum of things people should know. SoGoogle Eth Dev speed run, ETHTV speed run and you're going to get amedium article that's full of links and if you follow that. Step by stepyou get to the the final form. The final boss is building a signaturebased multiesis the video extending it to be a doll yep, that's it rightthere yet. So it all starts with tinkering with scaffold eive. You needto learn the syntax of the language. Scaffold each sets you up with thatright away. You have your smart contract on the left and you have yourAPP on the right and it's autoadapting. You add a UN to your smartcontract. The UN shows up in the front it. You had a functionto your smart contract. A button shows up in the front and for thatfunction and you click that buttonet calls a function. So you're allowed to you'reenabled to prototype and learn solidity and test your assumptions and learn the syntax ina really quick like devlute. Then from there go mint an NFT. Gothrough this in FT example. It just shows you what an NFC contract lookslike. It shows you how to use the tools. It gives you contextfor what that looks like. Then there's a challenge. Decentralized staking sets youup with you need to build a staking APP. You need to learn howthese smart contracts are kind of like state machines. You need to be ina deposit state at first and then you need to based on the block dottime stamp, you need to move to either a withdraw state or an executestate. Challenge to you're going to deploy a token, you're going to putit in a vendor, you're going to learn about contract, a contract interaction. You're going to learn about the approved pattern and how shitty it is.Then randomness. Rent randomness is really tricky on a deterministic blockchain. You're goingto play around with commit reveal. You're going to see how shitty that youX is. You're going to understand about oracles and oracles bringing in outside informationand figuring out how you get randomness on chain that's truly random. Then it'sthe decks. Right, you need to learn how to build a simple decentralizedexchange and I can show you how to do it in thirty lines of code. That article really dives into it, but really that price function is thething to focus on. Tokens to eath or east to Tokens. Then thenthere's some side quest here, like bonding curves, setting up your own likebasically building your own unic sewap front end,...

...basically building your own of a frontend with the lend component, building a contract that lets you pape.Then it's signed messages, then it's multi six and it's using assigned message withinmultisix that there's this whole curriculum that that I've found that like you're not justbuilding a multisig, you're learning the Gotcha's of the network and the challenges ofa Theorem by building this thing and you're not building it to sell it,you're building it to learn from it. And then there's a whole tech treethat kind of spans out from these these builds. And what I'm doing justto Shill a little bit more. Basically, I'm bringing that that funnel in andI'm giving people the resources. Any web to developer that wants to getstarted should be able to just pick this up and learn it. But ifthey if they get stuck, they can start working with me. But ifyou've completed like challenge to and you want to get on a call, likeyeah, let's get on a zoom and let's go right. But what I'mdoing is I'm now streaming eath to developers. So I got dropped a bunch ofUNI. I got dropped a bunch of GTC valueless governance tokens, butI can sell those on exchange, I can get eith and I can streame to developers. So if you go to build guildcom biddle, get olddods goods. This is this is the first this is the first iteration ofthis. It's basically like, as soon as you start showing value, startbuilding these things, I start streaming eath to you. But the way theeath works is you withdraw from the Stream and you turn in work. SoI kind of put the onus on the developer to turn in and price theirown work. But I give you the the North Star of were building tutorials, were building prototypes. If you want to build an n FFT that needsto lock up another nft before you mint it, and there's not a tutorialto do that. Already. Go for it. You know that's worth halfan eath. Go, go get it and I'll stream eats to you.And so I have like thirty some developers. I'm streaming e to developers and artists. I'm streaming eath to to build these tutorials, to build these prototypes. And then the moonshot collective is a step up from that. Awaukee iskind of stepped in as like a multiplier and we're bringing you more like seventyor eighty developers in and we're doing this same thing or figuring out how toscale it up. So scaling up that that that top of the funnel.Get a developer and give them the tools they need, give them the educationthey need to get started, give them the tour of duty where they learnall the Gotcha's, get them ready, and then from there they go tolevel two, and level two is beyond me right, like I'll send themto smarter people at that point. But once a once a person knows thatthey've been through all this stuff, like Georgio. So get on a callwith a right like a hot second, like yeah, yeah, exactly,like like a lot of really intelligent people like way beyond me, Giggabra.Means if I can show them that they've been through the tour of duty,they're going to pick them up and they're going to become a very valuable memberof the etherium ecosystem. So I'm doing the the funnel and the Level Oneand I'm going everywhere I can find developers and I'm trying to get them thisinformation. And then level two is going to be up to smarter people inthe ecosystem and I'll hand them up to you right and that could be likesomeone from snap shot, someone from sling shot, all the shots, someonefrom chain shot. Let's get them all in there. I can give youa good developer and they're looking for those two write like all of this comecolor and Cot ungreat there there days. If you, if you can provethat you've gone through this and you can ass is that. But it's asa threshold of information and none I have. You've goals on it, you've doneit and you've tried it and you've failed multiple times to get to thepoint of success. You will have a job. Yep for it. Yep, that's yeah. Can if you if you can't find one, tell meit. Don't Pleson. I'll put you one immediately. Like there's just nod, there's zerodapps about it, like and so like. I mean I havehad a thousand questions from here, had on your journey, but we areno, we have to wrap up the other one of these. Let's dothat. A call some to do a recurring one? Right, it doesn'tmatter. This is fun, so thanks for coming on. I think thatwas the quality way to in this. We have links in the description ofthe youtube video. They'll also be in...

...the podcast when this gets thrown out. And if three form go visit these things. Go, try them.When you fail, try again. When you fail again, ask somebody andget your job. Keep building. Yes, hell yeah, thanks, awesome.Thank you.

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