Hashing It Out
Hashing It Out

Episode 107 · 3 months ago

Hashing It Out Personals: Austin Griffith

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Austin Griffith is a prolific developer who works with the Ethereum Foundation to not only build new decentralized technology, but also teach others how to do the same. He also leads the BuidlGuidl, which is a curated group of Ethereum builders creating products, prototypes, and tutorials with scaffold-eth. Check him out at:

Social Media of Austin Griffith

Social Media of BuidlGuidl

Welcome to hashing it out a podcast,for we talk to the tech, innovators, behind blocked in infrastructure anddecentralized networks. We dive into the weeds to get at why and how peoplebuild this technology. The problems they face along the way come, listenand learn from the best in the business. You can join their ranks over back, pass it out, but thepersonal episode doing with Austin Grippet. As always, I'm your host Starkto court Petty Austin people know who you are but tell them, who you arebuilder in the space, I'd like to build tools and give to better tools todevelopers and educate them and get them started and get them building andget them dangerously close to having a product and a prototype has crisly cuts.Yep and you've been doing that for quite a like you've been don that forquite a while, like there's. No there's no gemma for this. This is just thushanging out having conversation talking about what's new. What's what we thinkis happening whatever so like you have been building in a myriad of ways ever since God like.When did you get started because I feel like you all kind of always threwaround, it was well. It was more like two thousand and seventeen like summerof two thousand and seventeen. I I finally like got a therium andunderstood like how cool it was and dove in and learned and then likereleased my first project, which was like that's just like learning how tomake an oracle prototype and it was garbage and no one cared and then andthen I went heads down for another few months, and I built like this gamegalleass that Io and it's like this- I mean it's, it would probably be makingmillions of dollars if I released it right now because of the ftid up. Ifyou want yeah like every everything, is it's Yeah I could share all we share inscreens. I could char a screen to it's a game where, like you, it's kind oflike a resource management game similar to like settlers of Catan has a lot ofsettlers of Catan vibe to it. But it's all like hand painted- and I like,painted them on with oil and they took pictures of the ships and then cut themin with with photo shop. So it tries to feel like this yeah there we go. Ittries to feel like this. Let's see if I can send some some x die to thataccount with a burner wallet too. Let's, let's get all the thing, the one ofyour fun yeah yeah exactly but the h. The point here is like thisland is all procedurally generated everything's on chain this. This is thethis is the fish monger and he wants you to go fishing for fillets and thenyou sell them for copper and Coppers, and ERC twenty and all the fish or ERCtwenties and you use commit reveal for randomness for catching the fish. Andthen the boats are n ftes and that FTES can own other NF to use where citizenscan get on the boat and sail around. But there's a lot of learning here forme where, when a ship sails, you can't do like movement on chain. So so thistaught me a lot of things about like where blockchain is useful and whereit's not and kind of a lot of the gotches of building on a slow,asynchronous database. But one thing here is when you want to move you can'tjust like put movement like this person is an Xy and they're moving along right.You just can't do that on an a saint blockchain, so one of the discoverieswas Oh, you send a transaction to put up your sales and then your ship sortof just sails along at some speed and you'll notice that every five seconds,or so all these ships kind of move a little right, and if you look closelyeven the clouds in the background, move every five seconds and that's a blockgetting mind. So it's like kind of this passive way like you put up your salesand then you're moving, but you're not actually controlling it. It's more like it's more like a vending machine likean arcade machine where you hit the button in it starts moving your shipfor you and it just enlightened me a lot in a lot of the gaches andinteresting things about an evm environment and then after galeass was,I started focusing on tooling and I looked at user experience and wespend a lot of time looking at like Meta transactions and burnerwallets. Both of those things were like when you, when you pair those things up,you get someone who lands on a site and automatically generates a wallet forthem. It's like a session wallet right. You don't put billions of dollars in it,but it's okay. We had kind of e had a lot of conversations about thatregarding like where that was going in the underlying security of teachingpeople this type of stuff previously. So if you're interested that type ofstuffs go look for either hatching it out, Austin or Tiquim pod cast Austinedo dope and then so. The the the key...

...there is like Meta transactions, allowa signer to just sign messages and then a relayer to put those on chain, andthen the burner wall allows you just land on the site and have an identityright away and those those kind of really came together with nifty inkanother project. I made that with a buddy like we made that basically it'slike, if you have, if you have a tablet, you point that tablet at nifty dot inkand you can make an NF, you doodle the N ft and it records you doodling, andit signs that recording with your burner Wallet Yeah. Here we go niftyink. So if you go to like create there that first tab up inthe top and then you create some there, you go so you can just like grab acolor. You can start drawing, you can kind of like just yeah draw anythingand then it it's going to record your drawing and then it's going to use. Soyou have a burner wall at there in the bottom right. So you have an accountalready and it's recording you right now and it'll put it up into ips anddeploy this as an Ft. you just need to give it a name and then some limitthere in the in the Ui there yeah there's your wallet, see that you Iover to the right there, where you have name and limit, give it. I give it aname and maybe make it a like a one of two NF and send me one or somethinglike that. But this is the process of this is the instant on boarding as anartist you land, you do something really interesting on the platform toprovide value and then other people might buy these enites from you withoutyou ever having to ever have any eath or any understanding, and then afteryou earn something, then you're much more likely to be wanting to educate yourself on how toprotect that thing. There we go you just like gasless ly, minted an N FT.This is on a side chain, so it's cheaper. It's on x, die, but then itupgrades to a theoria. You can even scroll down there and you can see thethe ownership. Yes so see how you have one of so click that mint button typein Austin, Griffith Dade and hit hit it. This is going to let you ghastlilymeant me a copy notice, it's doing ens resolution and stuff like that. He andis mature Scotchier. What's it called Yep the blocky? It's got a blockypreview. It's got ens, it's got qr code scanner, just a lot of things thatyou're going to use to build an at. All of that is built into scaffold, Eh andwe'll get to scaffold. He on Lang happen we're not tooling. What's thatyeah, probably on its way, Oh yeah, you've got a transaction. Successfulyeah it'll take a second to show up, as it's got to like pass the sub graph anddisplay there, but it will soon show that I am also an owner of there. It isyep if you go back to details, you'll see that you and I are the owners. Soyou you have one of two and I have two of two and what's what's it cost toupgrade to main net right now? There's that big button down there. I can't seeit because it's probably a hundred the six hundred and sixty six or so well. What's the base be the base we isof like hundred and forty seven right now so yeah yeah hundred and thirtyfour according for my by, but you you hit that button and you pay six hundreddollars and this thing shows up an open sea and it's a main net n Ft. so Ieverybody got six walkers. So if you want this for six hundred and sixty sixlars, let me know or the right, because I want to pay for the cast fast. That'sright! The goal here. The point here is the on boarding the on boarding atHella smooth right. You could have opened up an im to you. Should a typedin a nifty ink, you could have made something really interesting and youcould have earned crypto without knowing even what crypto was at thebeginning of that journey, that the key insight is that people will protectsomething once they earn value once they earn a narrative behind thataccount they're much more interested in learning about what a twelve word seedphrases and how to protect it. If you hit them up front with take this go verseed bars, protect this twelve word seed phrase with all your life. Okay,now prove to me, you can type that twelve word seed phrase back in or I'mnot even going to. Let you see the APP like that's terrible on board. Iunderstand this is what I day did they deal with it? It's like I don't know. Irun this balance, don't be wrong. I am you're on here because I deeply careabout the work that you're doing trying to make that on boarding experienceuseful and enticing for people such that they get that, like click of likethis, this is awesome. I can do this, and now I can do more, I'm going to domore and and then maybe it starts to make sense as value a cruels and be whether it,whether it be monetary or personal or whatever, to then start walking throughand introducing the key points of actually securing and maintaining thosetypes of things but like, like you, said like if we take a look at theonboard ng experience of every single APP, including the ones that I work onevery day. It's way to the bear adventure is way too difficult forregular people to get started or confusing. For that matter, like I'vegone on countless rantss on nomenclature,whether it be like the wallet is a...

Shitty name, we shouldn't call it awallet so on and so forth. Right like, but like I wouldn't. What's yourmotivation like okay, let me let me start over here. I usually start thepersonal interviews with a single question. We kind of already got intoit, and that is what do you care about. So I think one of the the things I lovethe most is empowering developers like giving them a tool and seeing them use it really.Well. Another thing is: is users like I love having people use the stuff? Ibuild and be delighted by it right and so, like some kind of mixture of thatnow is kind of my target where I'm building tools for ethereum or evinbuilders, to build things and they're kind of my users. But then they'll haveusers and the biggest win for me is when someone takes scaffold eath andbuild something amazing that a bunch of people use and that and that, like me, that's ageneral question right like what you care about and so like you like, building things for people to use andthen watching the joy of them using it and then maybe like facilitating them.Getting that click that you got previously like you, just you just kindof explained a lot of like the discovery experience with Galas rightof, like I'm, going to build a sin and all the things you learned across theprocess of building that thing to completion, taught you and helped youget to where you are today, and it seems as though you like creating themexperience for other people too yeah you choose. Why do you use atherium to do this type of stuff? Why not? The myriad of other expecially esto other to get that like what was it about this particular thing that madeyou dedicate your career to like at first it was a technology likehad I not like did. I went deep down the rabbit hole of doctor and I lovedoctor and I love the container sation and I love doing infrastructure andcode, and it was such a powerful tool for me, and I built a piece of softwareon top of Docker, that let people spin up clusters and set up and orchestraall sorts of stuff and the company that I was working for. Wouldn't let me opensource it and it was like forty dudes used it, and it was amazing. It couldhave been used by a ton of shops to do a lot oforchestration and scale up and answered the question for my littlecompany and they used it, but it would have answered the same question for alot of other places. So I I I got burned by that pretty hard likenot having things open source, how we start aligning incentives, how we startfiguring out even even like when you sit down and you get into a politicaldiscussion on someone it usually ends up with we do we just don't have the agency tofix that. Like I don't know, I don't know with my little cave man brain howto put change into the world in a way thatactually is going to have impact, and for the first time when I discovered aTheorem, it was for the technology, and I did you know, speed, run and go deep downthe rabbit hole, but there's also community and there's also this likeagency. I feel like some of these problems that feel. Like nebulus andand things that, like, I don't think I can solve, and just looking at, like all my data beingstored in facebook and how web to kind of H S H, s has plagued us now like atfirst. It was really awesome. It's really nice. I think Dan Faley has thisreally nice tweet about like web. One was great because we could all run ourown servers and everyone could get to them. Web Too was cool because we likebasically trusted someone else to do that stuff. We learned that noteverybody wants to run their own node and we want to be able to trust. But ifyou trust one centralized party like things, don't work out as well and whenwe were using that to kind of think about how web three needs to be. Youknow you still need to have lots of people running those nodes, but youneed to make it more of a platform or people can deploy things on top of it.So it's my cave man brain is just a builder. I don't know how to affectpolitics. I don't have a ton of agency in that world, but I feel like thecommunity as a whole, and the technology as a whole is is going tosort of meet current politics and currenttechnology in a way that's actually going to like be effective, and I don'tknow what that looks like at this point, but when I think of funding developersor that problem with open source, why can't I open source this? Why aren'tthe incentives aligned I see in centimes aligning a lot better onetherium than anywhere I've ever worked before. So again, it's like kind ofNebulis, I'm still not saying like, but I feel like the platform, has the potential to facilitate some of thesebig big picture changes that we want to see in the world, and I think it'sgoing to start from the ground up and it's going to be like a build up kindof thing, but I just want to be around and make sure everybody has all thetools they can to build those things, and I don't know what it's going tolook like yeah. I definitely certainly the...

I can aline with a lot of that it s it's the community that allowed me to dowhat the fuck I wanted and then thank me for it, and then re used the things that I didin a way that helped push a narrative that I caredabout in a lot of ways, but it's not the only one and you do the same thingright and so like and something like so one of our one of our listeners here,calling they actually all cohost. The show help me start this thing. Selfsovereign is a pain. The ASS though- and this is kind of what I wanted I'dlike to point out- is that, let's see how I want to put this ere reframing, what that kind of storeDan set, which is like the walking through web one through weather three,is I've tried to try and see it as like a constant pendulum shift between YEP? Will it win too far in Preston justlike exuberance that humans do whenever they get their hands on a new toys like?Oh, we can give people access to information. Let's, let's go ham onthat. You get all the information, but I oh it's kind of difficult. Well,let's obstruct that away and we're going to abstract it to a point where,like you, don't have to pave responsible or understand anything, butyou get everything and then we would full clip with that and that's wherethat's where we live to it and we're starting to get to therealization. I think from a social sad point that that any one a little toofar with this, like maybe people, should have some ownership andresponsibility in custodiums ship of of information such that understand themotivations, enbas and difficulties of of doing that job, and you mitigate abit of the like power you give to people who are providing thoseabstractions right, Google, facebook, whoever right and in some case and thenonce you understand that that play you can then start to makeconscious decisions on where you want to live like what. What pros and consyou're willing to give up, because you have the information available to you,make those types of things, but if you're you're introduced to that world,as many of the kids are today, where you've never seen the responsibilityand you can't get to the abstraction but you're just drinking from afirehose of information that isn't fedded, it's going to be really hard todo, and I think what like the decentralized Matizan space in total isstarting to pull that back from the Pindlin granted for trying to do theexact same thing and like the early days of Web three or whatever the hellyou want to call it it was he centralized all the things, no matterwhat? Let's see how far we can take this and it's like well block chain, isn't good for everything.It's not a pass, you right, and so now I think there needs to be a hugedisclaimer there before before. I let you go like there needs to be a huge todisclaimer that there's a ship load of greed and and garbage markets happeninghere. That's like fueling a lot of this stuff like yeah, I feel like. We haveto say that like up front, like maybe even eighty percent of thisgarbage green right right and so but but if you look at that, twenty percentand you look at what those people are doing and you look at maybe even likegovernance structures that are emerging right now. Those government structuresand the tools that we use to coordinate between those people might be wheregovernments are in ten years, and so we may be building some of these initialtools and learning kind of like by doing and dog footing where, wherethose tools will be effective and where we'll have problems and how we'll buildbetter tools- and I can tangent on the notes to say thing, but I feel like Icut you off right as you were about to swing for that. No you don't! No! I gotO okay, so so so to dive into that. A little bit more on. One theory is that governance is huge right now asplatforms to centralize and there's a lot of again decentralization theater.We've got to say it like: You've got to throw the disclaimer out there. A lotof decentralization is BS, a lot of guns to iners right, exactly exactlyyep and to zoom in on that, it's a lot of time. Just a nose is safe. What wefind is a lot of dows and a lot of government structures are basicallyjust a multi sig with a handful of signers, some tin have to coordinateyep and some and some voting that leads up to that. It's like so you can vo forsome signal and then we're getting thin in his multisensory. That's it of theseven on an YEP, exactly Yep. So so with that in mind with that theory inmine, if we want to be able to innovate on governance structures, what we'rethinking is, let's have it settled to a nose is safe, but let's build you astarter kit where you can innovate at the react level that the front endlevel. Basically, you build a front end. That is the Dow that is whatevercoordination you're trying to put together. Whatever answers the problemof. How do we get these? Twenty people to decide on a thing or whatever, likehow do we get these twenty people to make the right decision even better,that can just be in the front end and all those twenty people basically arejust signing a message that settles to a nose, Safein the background and andthat that saves you years of building...

...these intricate dos that we've seen bebuilt in the last two years, when really all you needed was a multi sigand a friend end to iterate on to get to the point where Oh, this, like thisis the coordination structure that works. So what we're doing right now iswere pushing hard this. This nose is safe, starter kit, that we justreleased the scaffold e. So not only you have the tooling. You have all thestuff that like lets, you build a depth in ten minutes, but it's going to letyou build a Dow in ten minutes going to it's going to let you put any kind offront end in front of some yeah. So, if you, so, if you go tothe branches up there right up, there, yea and you type innosis, there's going to be a nose as safe. So this is scaffold. Eth andscavais is a DAP template. If you want to get started learning how to build ona theory of Scail Isa, it is the best place to start. If you, Google, ethespeed run, you could get the speed run from me of how to like wail throughscaffold eath, but if you're looking to build and prototype some kind ofgovernance structure check out this nosis safe, starter kit, it's basicallyjust like a vanilla front end that helps youset up a safe here's. How many owners you have here's the threshold and go,but that could be, let's just, let's just say, we're coordinating to decide. If a group ofthirty of us who all invested ten k o how long we feel like we should be howstable we should be it's, I will call it the stable Dow, all thirty of thosepeople, basically just get a friend end that says: Hey how! How stable are youfeeling, like? Maybe maybe, like you know, like sad face medium face, happyface right and that's all they get and as a signer they land on this website,and they say maybe maybe it has some charts on it. Maybe some some investingdata, I don't know, but it lands there and it says how are you feeling aboutlike how stable are we feeling right? And you pick I'm you know a mediumstable right now, let's just hold eath, or maybe I'm maybe I'm sad face, let'sget into stables and be stable right now and you're a one of thirty on asigner on a multicium, all you're doing is getting in there and signaling theway you feel and you hit go. You get a nice easy front and you sign a messageand you're done and what that does eventually is that's going to settleit's going to aggregate all those signatures and it'sgoing to apply them and it's going to be backed by a nose is safe. So you getthe power of decentralization. You get the power of a Multi Sig, you get thepower of no one person has the vote here, but it's a very simple interfaceand maybe we're like okay. We need to add of five smiley faces like thisthere's not enough. There's not enough granularity there or maybe it's likeyou know what no one participated. We didn't have a good enough. Instead ofbuilding out this complicated, Dow smart contract and then hiring anauditor and then months later, building a front and to test whether or not thisstability tow is going to work. We Bang it out in an afternoon and we geteverybody to use it and we see if it works or not, and I want to see thathappen like over and over and over again. I want to be like that. I Wakeesays the generator function. I want to be the generator function for thoseprototypes and Tests Mall question, because I think thatwhat I think that process is awesome like how do you see the permanence ofthese lines? Are they itating in in the sense that you built upon them? Oh Yeahdevisin that, like you, you like this, this iteration needs improvement, throw it away starta new one from scratch. It wouldn't be start from scratch, it be like fork andclone and an adjust right, and it's like and you've built this one opensource thing. Maybe someone else needs that stable down in a totally differentway. It's not going to be an investing in stables, it's more like how we'refeeling about the governance process and it's just like a good feedback orsomething. So it's just like the sportage example right when you, whenyou look at those branches of scaffold, es, there's two hundred and fifty ortwo hundred and sixty right now it started as adapt template. But what werealized is once we give people a tent plate, they're going to take it andextend it into an FT market place and they're going to take it and extend itinto like an abing contract right to very different things. But if you need,if you need to build a contract that apes into ave right now, you can pullthat branch down and have it done in an hour, and you could be building yourown APP that apes in the AVA and and to play a contract, be because we've, likewe've tried it. We put it read me on how you you execute it yourself andwe've just given it out to people to see if they want to use it and hopingthey would but like. We do throw away a lot of things, but throwing it awaymeans saving it as a branch for anyone to fork and documenting it in and readme and letting people run with it if they want, but we're going to go adifferent Dertin with this, it's not going to be a stable down, it's goingto be something else, but we've learned that lesson in two weeks instead of twoyears. I remember an episode I did a long timeago and something I kind of enjoyed doing. I enjoyed the concept ofand thought it was powerful, but I don't think it got a lot of hold was. Iwas with Logan Bruche Bruche on he's.

He s started this kind of educationalprogram where he would basically try and make these things called what whatwe cord, the Paris cryptographic, er crypto economic primitives lot at yeah. What is what are these smallest function? Modular pieces? Wecan do and then, let's just make them this robust as hell andthen see people do with them right and so like it's just. It was like it waslike an ongoing experimentation of what are the crypto like crypto economicprimitives. We can make and then create temples for everybody to thenstart to then use them as puzzle pieces, and I know that you understand aconcept of modular puzzle pieces and then how you can build beautiful thingsfrom them from like. What's it bill lot S or yeah, but it's that build yea,east dot built. I forget that the that people can just play with US start tofigure out how this stuff works together. Yep, like I think that concept is powerful,but hasn't quite taken hold yet, and then you start to see you now now. Thiscreates a beautiful chaos in a lot of ways and that people can buildincredibly wonderful, complicated things, but they may end up thinkingthat, because the primitives themselves are robust, that the complicated thingthat they build from them is as well, and we what we've seen at least liketake, for instance, or that recent white hat hack from Sam with Sushi SwapYep two rights, sell, make a wrong right. You built from things that wererobust. It made something that that wasn't always robust on all the edgecases and the more complexity. You add in something like that, the more odsthat that's going to be and so like. How do you walk that balance of enabling people, but not abstracting too much away suchthat they assume everything is safe when it's stop yeah, I like lots of disclaimers hereand there right like a lot of the stuff like we do, get you dangerously closeto having an APP. But you start the beginning. It's a system when it's asystem like the whole system needs to be audited as a whole right like a lotof what we, what we are giving out is is a small piece to the system or yeah. It's it's hard, and you have tobe clear about that, but, like this isn't like don't Yelo this to main thatright now, there's so did over there and there's a million dollars in asmove yeah yeah. Well, and I don't yeah. I say I say that solidity is super easyyou can get in and you can learn this stuff right away. T is super easy toget on board, do not be afraid of it, but the disclaimer is. It is incrediblydifficult to deploy a safe system on top of contract like all these smartcontracts working together in a way like and and it's so fun to be, on amentor ship session with someone in there they're just up at the top of thedunning Kruger and they're, just hell, a confident that they just created thecoolest smart contract and I get to sit down with them and we work through it.And I say well what about this and they start thinking through it and they go.Oh all right and you have to have that moment of like Bro Trust me, like you,have a long journey to go. I'm down at the bottom of the pit right now likelike in the dunning Kruger like yes, it takes. It takes nothing, Giga brains,exactly it takes Giga brains and so- and I know like I've been dumped onenough times to know that, like I am not a Giga Brain, I'm just a builderand I'm trying to put things together. So it's just like a huge disclaimerthere that, like you're here on the dunning Kruger and you've got it like.Can I do it? Let's see it's over here and it goes up the now we're back. Wein do it backwards. Yeah there we go. It looks like that right, I kind ofyeah, so you have to like give you have to almost like have a like a just acheck with him. Just like okay, I got I got to check you real, quick, like youdo. You are building awesome things and it is super exciting, but I can reenter into this contract and drain it right now and you would have justyellowed it to main net and I'm I send stuff to a spot check guy who dunks onme all the time and I'm dunking on you so like there's layers here ofcomplexity and you just kind of have to teach it that way and it's just likeyou learn the hacks by building it thinking, thinking it's good and thenhaving someone come in and be like. Actually, it's yeah it's morecomplicated than that, like the message that value in the loop like, I wouldhave never like that. Wouldn't click for me. It took me a lot. Does Er tar,weird edge cases of like how the Avium is built and heat Solita then likecompile to it and so like it's, not I- and this is something that I think I'vealso talked about at maze- is the mentality of the structure of solidity, because it's it looks like javascript.It becomes more comfortable for people who are usually eaten, who do thingswith Jabs ript already, and since we've lowered the barry entry so low like dowhatever you want, but like it's really complicated, but unfortunately the thetypes of people who come in doing whatever they want...

...a don't have like the mentality of making something that youneed to be the union that you need to be in or to make something. It'sincredibly safe, like banking, software, air control software like going to likeflights, flight software. Things like this, where, like understanding, everything and beingincredibly confident that it works with her Dudach, is not the mentality. Weteach and is not typical the mentality of applications built in something likeJavascript, but it's yeah for sure, like on the other hand of that, likethe reason, the theory is where it is is because we've had so many peoplejust throwing things at the wall, and so many people breaking them, and solike that, I try to tell people from a securities perspective like the numberone metric for security of like or like having confidence in a given smartcontract. Is Time value, locked right and so like it's not is this secure isto secure up to this amount of money for this amount of time, and so like wecan be pretty pretty comfortable. We can have a pretty high confidence inthe fact that Mollie noses, safe contracts are secure. Complicated tolike the new is safe is not just a simple multicium of value for atremendous amount of time that doesn't mean that they're not going to gethacked or there isn't a buck. It means that it's not that much money worth of like people are trying to do it. Iguarantee it it's. Like instance, like there are plenty of people who aremonitoring every single smart contract that hits the etherium chain andprobably others, and then automatically testing it for a Ganet of known vulnerabilities that youcan you can test with it's funny when you go to a spot checkguy, he made us the re. The auto has like yeah the moment. It hits thingit's broken if we're forgiven a ray of vulnerabilities and then okay. So thatmeans that, like if your shit gets popped, the moment hits the thing thatyou had some some some relatively simple things wrong with it. If ittakes, I don't know ten thousand dollars, thenyou have a ten thousand dollar bug. Right is because, because, like peoplearen't going to pop something, if they know that the amount of value that theycan take away from, it is larger or they're not going to disclose a O, anew vulnerability that they know about until it's reasonable to do so fromfrom a value standpoint so like like all this is hard, but you get to justgo. Do it and like it with something like scaffold tief, you get to do itquickly, it's and wore or level. One though, like I d, have a comment withthe one should be cautious it should you will build it, enjoy it put it onmain knit, don't throw a shit little money it it yeah, probably not put iton main net either. I try not to like tea side. Cot is a different thing.Yeah there you go. That's that's a lot put it on a small test net of valueexactly I. So I want a hammer on this that, like in my mentorship sessions, Ialways try to pull the rug on them a couple times to get them to understand.On one thing, we do you're talking about how simple solidity is. I wantthem to understand how simple it is. I have them make a counter and anincrement in a decrement function. We set it at five and we play around withit and make sure the counter goes up and down when we incremented decret andwe're kind of thinking. This is this is kind of like this little embeddedcontroller, but it's like hello, redundant right, like everyone who hasa note, now has a copy of this little controller and not even weak and stopit. But when you decrement that thing below Ze, you take it five. Four threetwo one zero: You hit decrement one more time and that thing rolls overthose bits all flip to high and all of a sudden you have a balance of infinitydollars. They didn't expect that to happen and that that moment of, like Ohshit, so I thought I got it it's a simple counter. It goes up and downturns into there's a lot more here for me to understand and there's a lotgoing on under those abstractions, and they have that moment of check, andthen we move on to mappings now, okay, now we can store a balance. Let's builda little decentralized bank. Let's set this up, so an de pause. It withdrawokay. Now you learn a payable function where a contract can receive money.Okay, well, what happens at one contract sends that to another contractand it re enters right, so we want to have those moments of. Like trust mebrow. This is really complicated. I'm going to throw I n throw something atyou just to keep you in check here, like you got to know that, like there's,there's so and like again, I'm level one level. Two I feel like is when youstart thinking more about the the in depth security and what's this thinggoing to look like on main net, and how is how is this going to perform in anadversarial environment level? One is more just like: Let's make this in FTmarket place, so we can do this on a bonding curve and play with it, andit's all tests at like we're, not we're not putting a lot of things intoconduction and that's where I want people to be playing around in thatsandbox and really innovating. If you look at all those nf contracts that areon main nut right now, they're almost all the same garbage I mean not garbagethat opens up in contracts- are great they've done a great job, but like nftes right now are like t, there's very,...

...very little. Innovation at the smartcontract level- and that is the super power of a therium- is that innovationlevel and very few people are actually innovating they're saying I can deploythis profane picture and make money all right. So I'm going to push back alittle bit here, right and and that like, if you build a tool that does a thing and that and building of that so willcall it a Crypto cryptographic or crypt economic, primitive right. Well, thiscall ft the standard of N FTES C N that you have to lock another ft upto get or sure just yea e just start with the basic sing right. Okay, we wehave unique digital scarcity and ownership at I'd, call General N ftright. So that's an innovation, but it'sapplication just based on that single singularfunctionality can also be innovated on right because litely when you you takethat thing and combine it with a bunch of other things in a particular contextthat could be an innovate, innovative to any fit field. It doesn't requireinnovating the technology to move things forward, and I think what we'reexperiencing a lot of ways is: Oh Shit, block chains are useful once we havesomething that it now, we can build innovative primitives on something,that's relatively robust and gives ownership, and we don't have to trusthumans to take care of it. We have this new tool, that's built. Ontop of this other innovator tool, the blockchain. Now, let's figure what wecan do with that. Now that we have this new quote, unquote use case and see all far, we can take that andthat's what you see and like a a like, why ft most EFT platforms are garbagewith nothing. Changing is because they're experimenting with that tosaying how far they can take it and they don't have the prowess or domainexpertise to innovate at at the lower level, but they may have that Domari ses theylike well in my industry. This would change this drastically. Why don't wejust use this thing? It's better now, as opposed to like, let's revamp it allmake this new thing and see if that works. It's like this is tried and true,and I think there's like this lag of the higher you go up the stack in termsof changing the user experience for large scaleindustries, the more robust of the lower technologies need to be. Theyneed to be ossified in the same way, because you're going to build so muchvalue on it like we're pretty confident with like the Standard Years Year C,send twenty one when you start changing things of likenfd, owning n FTES and build standards around that type of stuff in it getsthe Larry we haven, we haven't quite figured out the bugs and that type ofstuff yet, but but like the ERC, twenty standardis super standardized and everyone's using it, and it's has a dumb assapproved pattern in it. The fact that you can't send tokens to a contract andhave it receive. It means that every time you want to make an an interfacewith a contract where you've got tokens and you need to get him into thecontract, you have to do one transaction to approve it and thenanother transaction on the contract to go, get it that's to a little more innovation atthe contract level before everybody started. Doing Icos would have actuallymade the UX now so much better, but that wasn't. But people were sayingthis is right and true and it works on. Let's duplay it and I'm saying now istried and true in that, like it's hard to steal, I did do right. That's he that, likewhat you hit that barrier, it's hard to steal and easy to do, then, like allright, let's wrong with it and a naively, because you have like that.That's that's just me! Okay, when you have a technology that has valueintrinsically attached to it, it's digital scarce right. That means it'svaluable to people so like when you you, when you've just injected the conceptof value into a technology where you could potentially make money from inthe process and playing with it, you're always going to have a rational inDubrach and you're, always going to have this like high cycle of bubblesand boast and busts, and so that's that's than we have something good toget get along with and so like the ARC. Twenty ICO boom is an example of thatwe lowered the Berry ventry and gave people a tool that allowed them to makeICOS with with relatively little work. They didn't understand the technology,but they could do it and then they ran with it. We saw a bunch of dumb shitand a few good things, and it's just going to keep happening the more we dothat, but, like you, do you want to make things accessible and the more the more inclusive you arein the process of making technology and giving it topeople the more likely that that that boom and bu cycle is going to Gettin tohappen because, like you said, people are greedy and ignorant, they want todo do things. They want to try it and then other people throw money at it,because it seems it sounds cool and they think they have upside right.That the upside is the scary thing too. They think if I buy this illiquidity, Icould sell this liquid J pa for twice as much tomorrow and it's like, oh likeno, how about? How do you make a...

...question at it does than they don't like most of the sidethat doesn't work and then gauging this is a problem we've seen just ofinvesting and various critic currencies not even like an F ts or whatever like gaging. The top of that bubble isbasically impossible, and let's sum in on that FT like that Nft standard doesn't have any royalty built into it. If I'm an artist and-and I make you know sixteen sixteen pieces of art in ftes sixteen ft and Isell them for a quarter, eth apiece and that's it like. I make some money onthat and that's awesome like I've got some support from my community. That'sgreat, but then those things go on to some other market and they're tradingaround for two weeth and then sixteen at me as the artist I'm left behind,like with my original amount and there's not a great standard for payingthose artists. But if you wanted a classical dupe, there's platforms thatdo it like superradiant super rear gives perpetual perpetual royalties,but you have to use their platform in the platform exactly that. The NFitself does not have so so that then there you have platform lock in if youwant to get those royalties and different platforms are able to offerdifferent royalties, but if the royalties were built into the token-and this is exactly like what a Theorem is built for right, like let's innovateon that N ft and let's build those royalties in and that's align thoseincentives, a whole new, a whole new thing is going to happen. When thathappens, we actually did that with a sticker market at status. Yep So like aPAS sticker pack is an FT and it's hard to call the act so that in the ownership and royalty, and I canw what what she is set and where that he goes is also in enough t. So youhave an ownership that controls kind of where the money flows and how much it'sworth and then a basically a factory of a potentially scarce factory of othernts, which do you can men use to prove that you have bought it within theapplication to show stickers right. I thought that was pretty interestingand I think that's no. I want to say we change o standard of to talk to Ricardoabout it, but, like those are being worked on and I'mcurious to see like once once once they get robust people start people aregoing to use them. We, I think, the cats out of the bag just like yearcenis, we have a reasonable, oh good enough, digit og, we of those likemaking Tokens Minting Tokens. Now we have a good enough way of playing with unique digital scarcity.Now people are going to start really innovating and eventually we're goingto find we're like okay. This is this. Is the generic generic enoughsecure thing that allows you to say I'm going to make this. I have theseoptions to do it. This is to make it function the way I'd like it to andthat's the primitive, but like the more complex that thinggets the more difficult it is to call it a primitive for she. The security is of yeah it's ahard problem, but this is the best place to be in the same box in tens. O,like anyone can do it like right and now we still we've seen we seengroups make these things that in any other circumstance than I can imaginein the history of human race would never have been able to do that thinks,like a group of sixteen year olds, making millions of dollars on aftplatform like all right. I don't know how much they are. It's pretty they'rearound that age, but like okay name, met somewhere else and not the dudes, making money to letand and they're making money because they bilt something cool but likeZoomin on the kid from in Mit. That gets on a mentorship session with methat is excited about a theory and but doesn't know a ton about it. We gothrough a couple sessions. I give him scaffold eve. We build nf ts, we buildsome defi stuff, he learned some of the primitives and then he comes back to metwo weeks later and he says hey, I have this new patronage model that workswith n ftes that books into the before call. There's a taxation model. Youboot strap it with a bonding curve and then you experiment with this newtaxation model. On Top, these FTES can be liquidated if the taxes aren't paidkind of like harbor or tax ish, and it's like bro You just like inventedsomething like that is what this is for and like. How do I empower you to getthis like to take this to the next depth and this this will zoom I'll. DoI on like a big problem in the space right now? He needs to pay for ahundred thousand dollar audit and that's garbage. That's bogus, likethat's like that's why I spend a good portion of my time, that's trying tomitigate that issue, because it's not going to get any better like that. Whatyou just said is not going to get any better in the short term, because thenumber of projects that want audits is growing exponentially faster. I I'mjust using a term colloquiallyhe, then...

...the people who are able to give them. I think that, like it will start withthe funnel like when I'm talking about I'm level one when I land on theEthernet do and there's all these developers that are looking for amentorship ally from from synthetics is picking two of them and he's going tomentor them hard core and I'm on the other end, I want to I'm going to pickI'm going to take all sixty six of those kids, I'm going to send them. Thee Dev speed run and I'm going to give them go. Watch this video then tacklethis then tackle this then tackle this you're going to learn. You're going tolearn, payable functions, you're going to learn, staking you're, going tolearn time. Then you're going to learn contract a contract interaction. Yougonna learn how to deploy your own token you're, going to learn how tobuild a deck you're going to learn how commit reveal works. You don't learnhow sign messages work you're, going to build your own Multi Sig, like I'm,giving them a curriculum to work through, and I think that at the top ofa funnel that's exactly what we need is like this really nice weeks. I Yes h!What's that? What are you doing this mentorship like? Where can people go todo this like how everywhere an you manse like the formalization of this isdesperately needed. I mean, I know like Rajiv is doing it with Securum, butthat's that's tailor towards sport, a tract auditing, so that's going a multilovers like all yeah, and so this level, one this on ramp of doing things likegetting getting to the point where I'm gonna, I'm going to add a I'm gonna ata level in between it's like there's a little hue o. Why yeah getting them inthere and you're, giving them the right tools to say like this is how it works,and these are reasonable things to think about, and this is these are thetypes of questions you need to be asking yourself now you can reasonablyso make something new based on what you'd like to do and a pretty good way.Now I would say the next tobe from there is: What are all the things that I can doas a developer or a team to get it ready for Maine right yeah? Howdo I, how do I use all of the available tooling and knowledge to spend time,bolstering my own confidence that this thing is built? Well, I have tests. II've run the the myriad of free security software tocheck for low hanging fruit. I built you know, data flow diagrams to dothreat. Modeling I've done all these various things to like build thedocumentation, understand the risks and caught all the low hanging bugs, and Ihave a test corpus that like allows me to keep working to that onon introduceto things right. So, like that's double too at that point, you can say you have you have a pretty strong ideaof. This is the information that I'm blacking. I've identified this risk,and I don't know if I'm mitigating it very well. That's when you can ask foran audit, that's how you ask for not it, but it still cost a hundred thousanddollars, because we don't have enough t, that's a point right, yeah, the betteryou're able to narrow your scope from. I need an audit to here's the wrist of the other ofisethere's the things that I've done, and I need stronger confidence that thisworks just like this. Here's the documentation of how that works, you'regoing to drastically decrease the time to get one and the price to do so because most oare and learn atremendous amount yea in that that, in what I like about this, is that if youlike that process and you're one of those people that has identified thatrisk and don't quite understand how to mitigate it or what's available to youto do so, there are available tools to then learn that and then become an auditor.If you want to do that, and that's a that's, a quality road map to go from,I'm a developer learning this stuff to, I actually really love the security ofthe stuff, and I want to. I want to make other people more confident oftheir stuff works appropriate and get paid a lot of money, doing it to find those people in their trip that,for sure Yep. I think the funnel. For me, is this: Like level zero, which isgetting the? Why of a Theorem like? Why do we even want to build something onit? What is it about the theory? That's an interesting and then, if you're adeveloper level, one is just picking up. scaffolded learning the syntax goingthrough the ET deve speed run it's what I would call that it's not justlearning the syntax you're up at the dunning cruger up the top of thedunning Kruger. When you get the sente because you feel like you could doanything, but you need to go through a tour of duty. You need to understandhow signed messages work. How commit reveal works. You need to understandthat when you build a signature based Multi Sig, I can pass in the samesignature twice, and I can do this trick where I can get something to passand you thought your code was solid, but it's not there's a whole. You written that O. I a U I E, where wehave it. Please show me where that is like of this curriculum of things.People should know so. Google E of...

...speed run EF, speedrun and you're goingto get a medium article, that's full of links, and if you follow that step bystep, you get to the final form. The final boss is building a signaturebased multicast video, extending it to be a down Yep. That's it right thereyea, so it all starts with tinkering with scaffold eve. You need to learnthe syntax of the language. SCOVILLE sets you up with that right away. Youhave your smart contract on the left and you have your APP on the right andit's auto, adapt a you. Add a UN to your smart contract. The! U and showsup in the front of you, had a function to your smart contract. A button showsup in the front and for that function I mean you, Click that button. It calls afunction so you're allowed to you're, enabled to prototype and learn solidityand test your assumptions and learn the syntax in a really quick like devout.Then from there go men on NFD, go through this FT example. It just showsyou what an NF contract looks like. It shows you how to use the tools it givesyou context for what that looks. Like then, there's a challenge decentralizedstaking sets you up with. You need to build a staking at you need to learnhow these smart contracts are kind of like state machines. You need to be ina deposit state at first and then you need to based on the block dot timestamp. You need to move to either a withdraw state or an execute statechallenge to you're, going to deploy a token you're going to put in in avender you're, going to learn about contract, a contract, interaction,you're, going to learn about the approved pattern and how shitty it isthen randomness, rent random is, is really tricky on a deterministicblockchain you're going to play around with commit reveal you're going to seehow shitty that? U X, is you're going to understand about oracles and oracles,bringing an outside information and figuring out how you get randomness onchain, that's truly random! Then then it's the decks right. You need to learnhow to build a simple decentralized exchange and I can show you how to doit in thirty lines of code that article really dives into it, but really thatprice function is the thing to focus on tokens to eat their east. To Tokens.Then then, there's some side quests here like bonding curves setting up your own, like basicallybuilding your own unison front and basically building your own ave frontend with the lynd component. Building a contract that lets you ape. Then it'ssigned messages. Then it's multi six and it's using a sign message withinmulti sigs that there's this whole curriculum that that I've found that,like you're, not just building a multi, Sig, you're learning, the Gotcha of thenetwork and the challenges of etherium by building this thing and you're notbuilding it to sell it, you're building it to learn from it and then there's awhole tech tree. That kind of spans out from these these builds and what I'mdoing just to shell a little bit more. Basically, I'm bringing that thatfunnel and and I'm giving people the resources any web to developer. Thatwants to get started should be able to just pick this up and learn it, but ifthey, if they get stuck, they can start working with me. But if, if you'vecompleted like challenge to- and you want to get on a call like yeah- let'sget on a zoom and let's go right. But what I'm doing is I'm now streamingeath to developers, so I got dropped a bunch of UNI. I got dropped a bunch ofGTC valueless governance tokens, but I can sell those on exchange. I can getet and I can stream eath to developers. So if you go to build Gildo, bit'llGedol God o Istis, this is the first. This is the first iteration of this.It's basically like as soon as you start, showing value start buildingthese things. I start streaming eath to you, but the way the eath works is youwithdraw from the Stream and you turn in work. So I kind of put the onus onthe developer to turn in and price their own work, but I give you the theNorth Star of we're building tutorials we're building prototypes. If you wantto build an FT that needs to lock up another nf before you meant it andthere's not a tutorial to do that, already go for it. You know that'sworth half an eath go, go, get it and all stream eats to you, and so I havelike thirty, some developers, I'm streaming e to developers and artists.I was dreaming Eath to to build these tutorials to build these prototypes andthen the moon shot. Collective is a step up from that I Wakee has kind ofstepped in as like a multiplier and we're bringing you more like seventy oreighty developers in and we're doing this same thing or figuring out how toscale it up so scaling up that that that top of the funnel get a developerand give them the tools they need, give them the education. They need to getstarted, give them the tour of duty where they learn all the gaches, getthem ready and then from there they go to level to and level to s beyond meright, like I'll, send them to smarter people at that point, but once a once,a person knows that they've been through all this stuff, like Georgia,Oso get on a call with a right like a hot second, like yeah yeah, exactlylike like a lot of really intelligent people like way beyond me, Giga brains,if I can show them that they've been through the tour of duty, they're,going to pick them up and they're going to become a very valuable member of theETHEREUM MECO system. So I'm doing the the funnel and the Level One and I'mgoing everywhere. I can find developers and I'm trying to get them thisinformation and then level two is going to be up to smarter people in theecosystem and I'll hand them up to you right and that could be like someonefrom snapshot. Someonefrom...

...sling shot all the shots, someone fromchain shot, let's get them all in that. I can give you a good developer andthey're looking for those two right, like all of those come cowing there e,if you, if you can prove that you've gone through thisand you can sit but is as a threshhold of information, and then I have you to do goals on it.You've done it and you've tried it and you've failed multiple times to get tothe point of success, you will have a job yeah red yeah yeah.If, if you can't find one tell me, I do an I'll put you one immediately likethere's US do, there's zeroes about it like, and so like I mean, I have athousand questions from here had on your journey, but we a know wehave to wrap up other one of these. Let's do that. Acall on the super es do a recurring one right. It doesn't matter. This is fun.So thanks for coming on, I think that was the quality way to end this. Wehave links in the description of the Youtube. Video they'll also be in thepodcast when this gets thrown out and in P, three form go visit. These things go: try themwhen you fail. Try again when you fail again, ask somebody and get to job. Keep building. Yes, hell!Yeah thanks awesome! Thank you. I.

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